I could not find any discussion that went right to the point of the question, " What is the traditionalists' view of the use of dynamics?" I don't hear a lot of its use in sessions and haven't noticed it much in performances. There seems to be some control of overall dynamics by having instruments sit out, but pretty much most everyone pounds it. Am I going to the wrong sessions? I very much like using dynamics when I'm out in the backyard paying back the birds for waking me up in the morning. I think I'll go do that now.
Good question. One thing, with regard to solo playing--I think they're hard to do, with uillean pipes. As for sessions, quiet passages do tend to get swallowed in the general hubbub. And I suppose there's little point to them, when you're playing for dancers. They don't dance softer for quiet passages. Maybe that has something to do with it.
I have recently been processing a ton of recordings, from field recordings to things commercially processed. This means spending a lot of time looking at waveforms. DYNAMICS!!! ~ It can't be any more obvious. It doesn't mean long drawn out and idiotic melodrama, as can be the abuse this music can be subjected to by the classically trained, or those over influenced in that realm. To see the 'dance', literally, in the music, in the wave forms, the rise and drop and the larger waver form of it that defines the phrase ~ DAMN RIGHT THEY USE DYNAMICS in this music... It helps in subtle and not so subtle ways to define the structure of this dance music, to help the dance and the dancers along, to speak all the rhythmic elements that make up this music and dance ~ beat and phrase, step and figure...
I was bewailing the difference I noted with regards to commercial recordings, and recordings of sessions, the difference between these and raw unprocessed field recordings or earlier recordings. You can see a more interesting landscape in the waveforms of what is mostly unadulterated, while modern digital diddling (& it existed before digital) is often dull and uninteresting, as has been mentioned before ~ fast and loud. Those waveforms are all the same, just one endless woolly caterpillar of black squiggles, usually pushed to 0db, as loud as they can push it without it clipping, and even beyond, snipping off those clips in the later processing. There is a practice to even it all out, to remove those interesting valleys and make everything, as much as possible, the same LOUD. That is also ALWAYS obvious when you're looking at the waveform on an oscilloscope or its equivalent on a computer screen.
It is not so blatant and silly with the dance music, but it is there. It is also there with airs, more evidently so as things are slowed down. When I've actually 'time stretched' (sss-llll-oooo-wwww-ed down) the music and stretched out those waveforms ~ it is as obvious as the slow airs can be... YES! Three cheers for dynamics tastefully done and with purpose that helps bring out the 'dance' and interest in this music. When it detracts from it and becomes rediculously obvious ~ then that's overkill...
Yes, you can tell a non-traditional musician by their abuse and lack of understanding of such things ~ dynamics, vibrato, ornament, melodrama...
I'm surprised at some of the replies prior to Ceol's, to the point where I wonder if some people understand what dynamics means. Yes of course, dynamics are used frequently in the music, often to accentuate a rhythm or maybe to link two phrases, to bridge two tunes in a set, to start a tune off or to accentuate that little note that people play witha space just before the finish of a tune, or set. I didn't know dynamics was not possible on the pipes and am mildly surprised by that revelation, but dynamics can be performed (oops used the "P" word, sorry) on the flute (a bark, as its known) the fiddle (I believe.... if that's what I'm hearing correctly) and of course the box. Maybe it can't be heard so well in a big session where the whole sound gets averaged out, but competent players should utilise dynamics at least in the examples I have suggested.
The main classical uses for variation in dynamics is to use it to differentiate between phrases and movements. They use it to define the grand sweep of stuff. Good diddley music uses just as much variation of dynamics, it's just that it happens down at the micro level. It is used to define the phrases themselves. It's the building blocks of what is loosely referred to as lift and drive etc.
As is common with a lot of peoples' misunderstanding of the music, the devil is in the detail.
Strange, loud and quiet are the obvious dynamics but when I was being taught the pipes I was told that because of the lack of volume variation dynamics were especially important. In that I mean the way you enter and leave phrases, use of doublings (crans) and the way you stretch the tune. The faster the tune the more subtle the dynamic, it has a lot to do with the attack on faster tunes on the pipes.
I would also say that the whistle is capable of great dynamics despite the fact that a centered note is always the same volume. Swelling into notes, letting them decay, tounging, etc are all forms of dynamics IMO. In a group situation dynamics are obviously approached differently as you have more choice of how to make a part stand out.
Listen to Danny Meehan, Tommy Potts and Paddy Canny to name but three and tell me what they do doesn't incorporate dynamics. Danny Meehan in particular makes great use of dynamics. He'll sometimes go from playing a phrase at normal dynamic to really quiet then with a sudden burst he'll play ferociously.
Dynamics in traditional music don't really work like in classical music but they are used, they help create lift. If you just kept playing in the same dynamic all the time it would be incredibly boring and unmusical. Some players and sessions are like this, whereas good players and sessions are not.
>>If you just kept playing in the same dynamic all the time it would be incredibly boring and unmusical. Some players and sessions are like this, whereas good players and sessions are not.
?
Are you suggesting in these good sessions all the players simultaneously all do the same dynamic?
Please advise.
Of course there are dynamics in trad music. Some people think there aren't because they think of dynamics as being something that appears in classical sheetmusic written in Italian. The difference with trad is that it's pointless to try and notate it whatever the language, because each musician in a session will be doing different things at different times, unlike the instruments of an orchestra which will follow dynamics so that different sections are working as one doing the same thing. I'd say that there is less loud-soft contrast in trad than in classical music, but more emphasis on dynamics that accentuate rhythm and phrasing, like accents on notes, staccato, slurs, and of course all the effects you can get with a fiddle bow, and the hiccups you can do with pipes to articulate notes - they're all dynamics too.
Less loud-soft and less rallentandos and others that direct you to speed up or slow down. An overuse of these is often a sign that a player can't get rid of the classical sound in their playing.
I play softer or louder all the time, depending on the situation.
What I mean is this: Who started the tune? Is he/she shaky with it? Do they need me to back off or take the lead in 'the dance'? Should I play lightly, just enough to sneak in behind them, and boost them, and not screw them all up? Do they need me to jump in boldly and drag them along? Is everyone else flailing away at the same time? Should I just open the floodgates and blast away? Should I do nothing?
The answer is yes and no, it's a case by case situation.
However, when I'm playing solo or taking 'the lead in the dance' so to speak, then yes, there's no need for softer versus louder, there's just the one valve, open or closed, and the dynamics are used as part of the tune, as said above, to create the spaces bewteen notes, the lift, the oomph, etc.
Michael's first post on this is spot on. Trad players use dynamics at the micro level. Note by note, and with a note's duration (even as short as an eighth note can be at reel pace for dancers or in a session).
In fact, it's these changes in dynamics--far more than any dotted rhythm or swing--that create lift or pulse. We just hashed this out on the thread about playing all tunes at the same tempo (i.e., too fast), which segued into an interesting chat about hornpipes and the difference between swing and hornpipe rhythm (which stems largely if not wholly from the use of dynamics to emphasize downbeats in strong/weak quarter-note pairs).
You could argue that micro dynamics are a hallmark of traditional playing, and it's the dotted rhythm or over-done swing that marks someone as a newcomer or uninformed player of this music.
I use dynamics all the time... I play more quietly if I suck at the tune.
Other than that, the dynamics only noticeably shift from tune to tune at the sessions I've been to, usually depending on how fast the tune is. It's hard for it to be any other way since everyone plays each tune a little bit differently and we never get together and agree on exactly how any tune should be played. That would probably take some of the fun out of it really.
DIDDLY -IE DIDDLY-IE DIDDLY-IE DEE
diddly-ie diddly-ie diddly-ie dee
and Will CPT, I am not sure even what you mean by micro level dynamics...are you talking about the attack-sustain-decay thing on each note? or something else?
I know that overall dynamics use like my example just above here would be limited to individual playing or small groups of people who have been playing together for a long time and know what's going to happen, or are REALLY paying attention to each other.
I you play in a session where people are not really paying attention to each other, I'd strongly suggest you do something about it.
DiddLey -I de diDdleY i dE DIddleY i De
What we mean by micro level dynamics is that unlike classical music, where you are taught to play phrases very evenly with clear constant pressure, diddley music phrases have a wide variety of dynamics over a very short space. It's all part of articulation. Diddley music is packed to the brim with it.
And it's important to think of all the definitions of dynamics, not just changes in volume. Think of it as a dynamic system, like a big river delta, constantly changing and weaving.
Strange things happen down at the micro level. For example, playing a note slightly early has a similar effect as playing it on time, but a little louder, hence the subtleties of swing. And playing a note very very quickly does not sound like a note, it sounds like an interruption of another note, hence fast rolls sound like three notes not five, hence your standard bowed or banjo triplet being substitutable for the fast roll. And slow rolls are somewhere in between sounding like three or five notes, hence they can't be substitutes with a plucked instrument.
These are all reasons why I think it can be very misleading to use slow down software to learn tunes. It can be interesting from a technical point of view to hear how the music is actually constructed, but if you practice along with slowed down music you will be getting all the micro articulations all wrong.
ceolachan and Key Maniac Lad made excellent points about dynamics. Obviously there is dynamics within Irish music. They are different from the notated form found within transcribed western art music (i.e. mp, fff, etc.). If you're not used to listening to trad music, and you approach it with a 'classical' head on your shoulders, it's possible to draw this conclusion, but only because you don't really understand what's going on.
!@£$%^&*() mentioned 3 great fiddle players whose music demonstrates dynamics - regardless of your interest in dynamics, you should listen to them all as they are three of the best musicians this tradition has ever produced. Be aware that Potts had a profound influence on Canny, so there is some common ground there. I would also recommend listening to Joe Cooley - iconic galway box player. There is huge dynamic range within his playing. Also Tony MacMahon, a veritable 'disciple' of Cooley. Clips are available on youtube. Check out MacMahon playing Ships are sailing and tell me you don't hear dynamics!!!!
There is evidence of dynamics being 'squeezed' out of modern commercia recordings, with the overuse of dynamic compression. While compresion is a very useful sound engineers tool, if overused it can literally squeeze the life out of the music, remoing all sense of lift generated by subtle changes in dynamics.
So, in conclusion, Irish music has lots of dynamics. If you don't hear them in your local session, then ditch it and stay at home listening to the greats, like meehan, canny, potts, macmahon and cooley.
There are also, as a side issue, trad pieces that incorporate the use of dramatic dynamics into their structure. The fox chase, for example. Or, to take an English example, the fade-out when playing the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance.
Actually, this would make a really good topic for a dissertation.
Traditionalist view of dynamics
Traditionalist view of dynamics
I could not find any discussion that went right to the point of the question, " What is the traditionalists' view of the use of dynamics?" I don't hear a lot of its use in sessions and haven't noticed it much in performances. There seems to be some control of overall dynamics by having instruments sit out, but pretty much most everyone pounds it. Am I going to the wrong sessions? I very much like using dynamics when I'm out in the backyard paying back the birds for waking me up in the morning. I think I'll go do that now.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by justjim
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
Good question. One thing, with regard to solo playing--I think they're hard to do, with uillean pipes. As for sessions, quiet passages do tend to get swallowed in the general hubbub. And I suppose there's little point to them, when you're playing for dancers. They don't dance softer for quiet passages. Maybe that has something to do with it.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by mickray
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
There are two general types of dynamics in traditional music:
1. Loud - when you play,
2. Quiet - when you stop.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by EastPole
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
I think it was Brendan Brethnach who said that you could always tell a non-traditional musician by their use of dynamics.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by blah
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
I have recently been processing a ton of recordings, from field recordings to things commercially processed. This means spending a lot of time looking at waveforms. DYNAMICS!!! ~ It can't be any more obvious. It doesn't mean long drawn out and idiotic melodrama, as can be the abuse this music can be subjected to by the classically trained, or those over influenced in that realm. To see the 'dance', literally, in the music, in the wave forms, the rise and drop and the larger waver form of it that defines the phrase ~ DAMN RIGHT THEY USE DYNAMICS in this music... It helps in subtle and not so subtle ways to define the structure of this dance music, to help the dance and the dancers along, to speak all the rhythmic elements that make up this music and dance ~ beat and phrase, step and figure...
I was bewailing the difference I noted with regards to commercial recordings, and recordings of sessions, the difference between these and raw unprocessed field recordings or earlier recordings. You can see a more interesting landscape in the waveforms of what is mostly unadulterated, while modern digital diddling (& it existed before digital) is often dull and uninteresting, as has been mentioned before ~ fast and loud. Those waveforms are all the same, just one endless woolly caterpillar of black squiggles, usually pushed to 0db, as loud as they can push it without it clipping, and even beyond, snipping off those clips in the later processing. There is a practice to even it all out, to remove those interesting valleys and make everything, as much as possible, the same LOUD. That is also ALWAYS obvious when you're looking at the waveform on an oscilloscope or its equivalent on a computer screen.
It is not so blatant and silly with the dance music, but it is there. It is also there with airs, more evidently so as things are slowed down. When I've actually 'time stretched' (sss-llll-oooo-wwww-ed down) the music and stretched out those waveforms ~ it is as obvious as the slow airs can be... YES! Three cheers for dynamics tastefully done and with purpose that helps bring out the 'dance' and interest in this music. When it detracts from it and becomes rediculously obvious ~ then that's overkill...
Yes, you can tell a non-traditional musician by their abuse and lack of understanding of such things ~ dynamics, vibrato, ornament, melodrama...
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
I'm surprised at some of the replies prior to Ceol's, to the point where I wonder if some people understand what dynamics means. Yes of course, dynamics are used frequently in the music, often to accentuate a rhythm or maybe to link two phrases, to bridge two tunes in a set, to start a tune off or to accentuate that little note that people play witha space just before the finish of a tune, or set. I didn't know dynamics was not possible on the pipes and am mildly surprised by that revelation, but dynamics can be performed (oops used the "P" word, sorry) on the flute (a bark, as its known) the fiddle (I believe.... if that's what I'm hearing correctly) and of course the box. Maybe it can't be heard so well in a big session where the whole sound gets averaged out, but competent players should utilise dynamics at least in the examples I have suggested.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
The main classical uses for variation in dynamics is to use it to differentiate between phrases and movements. They use it to define the grand sweep of stuff. Good diddley music uses just as much variation of dynamics, it's just that it happens down at the micro level. It is used to define the phrases themselves. It's the building blocks of what is loosely referred to as lift and drive etc.
As is common with a lot of peoples' misunderstanding of the music, the devil is in the detail.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
Strange, loud and quiet are the obvious dynamics but when I was being taught the pipes I was told that because of the lack of volume variation dynamics were especially important. In that I mean the way you enter and leave phrases, use of doublings (crans) and the way you stretch the tune. The faster the tune the more subtle the dynamic, it has a lot to do with the attack on faster tunes on the pipes.
I would also say that the whistle is capable of great dynamics despite the fact that a centered note is always the same volume. Swelling into notes, letting them decay, tounging, etc are all forms of dynamics IMO. In a group situation dynamics are obviously approached differently as you have more choice of how to make a part stand out.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by bogman
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
Listen to Danny Meehan, Tommy Potts and Paddy Canny to name but three and tell me what they do doesn't incorporate dynamics. Danny Meehan in particular makes great use of dynamics. He'll sometimes go from playing a phrase at normal dynamic to really quiet then with a sudden burst he'll play ferociously.
Dynamics in traditional music don't really work like in classical music but they are used, they help create lift. If you just kept playing in the same dynamic all the time it would be incredibly boring and unmusical. Some players and sessions are like this, whereas good players and sessions are not.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
>>If you just kept playing in the same dynamic all the time it would be incredibly boring and unmusical. Some players and sessions are like this, whereas good players and sessions are not.
?
Are you suggesting in these good sessions all the players simultaneously all do the same dynamic?
Please advise.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
If a set of tunes is started by a tin whistle or a mandolin, it's common practice for fiddles and flutes to keep it down a bit.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
and something I quite like doing is to play the last tune in a set a forth time, but barely audibly. People catch on.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
sorry?
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
Of course there are dynamics in trad music. Some people think there aren't because they think of dynamics as being something that appears in classical sheetmusic written in Italian. The difference with trad is that it's pointless to try and notate it whatever the language, because each musician in a session will be doing different things at different times, unlike the instruments of an orchestra which will follow dynamics so that different sections are working as one doing the same thing. I'd say that there is less loud-soft contrast in trad than in classical music, but more emphasis on dynamics that accentuate rhythm and phrasing, like accents on notes, staccato, slurs, and of course all the effects you can get with a fiddle bow, and the hiccups you can do with pipes to articulate notes - they're all dynamics too.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Dow
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
Less loud-soft and less rallentandos and others that direct you to speed up or slow down. An overuse of these is often a sign that a player can't get rid of the classical sound in their playing.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Dow
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
I play softer or louder all the time, depending on the situation.
What I mean is this: Who started the tune? Is he/she shaky with it? Do they need me to back off or take the lead in 'the dance'? Should I play lightly, just enough to sneak in behind them, and boost them, and not screw them all up? Do they need me to jump in boldly and drag them along? Is everyone else flailing away at the same time? Should I just open the floodgates and blast away? Should I do nothing?
The answer is yes and no, it's a case by case situation.
However, when I'm playing solo or taking 'the lead in the dance' so to speak, then yes, there's no need for softer versus louder, there's just the one valve, open or closed, and the dynamics are used as part of the tune, as said above, to create the spaces bewteen notes, the lift, the oomph, etc.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
Michael's first post on this is spot on. Trad players use dynamics at the micro level. Note by note, and with a note's duration (even as short as an eighth note can be at reel pace for dancers or in a session).
In fact, it's these changes in dynamics--far more than any dotted rhythm or swing--that create lift or pulse. We just hashed this out on the thread about playing all tunes at the same tempo (i.e., too fast), which segued into an interesting chat about hornpipes and the difference between swing and hornpipe rhythm (which stems largely if not wholly from the use of dynamics to emphasize downbeats in strong/weak quarter-note pairs).
You could argue that micro dynamics are a hallmark of traditional playing, and it's the dotted rhythm or over-done swing that marks someone as a newcomer or uninformed player of this music.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
YAAY-diddly-YAAY-diddly-YAAY-diddly diddly-iddly...
.....like that you mean?
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
I use dynamics all the time... I play more quietly if I suck at the tune.
Other than that, the dynamics only noticeably shift from tune to tune at the sessions I've been to, usually depending on how fast the tune is. It's hard for it to be any other way since everyone plays each tune a little bit differently and we never get together and agree on exactly how any tune should be played. That would probably take some of the fun out of it really.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
key maniac, i was asking more like
DIDDLY -IE DIDDLY-IE DIDDLY-IE DEE
diddly-ie diddly-ie diddly-ie dee
and Will CPT, I am not sure even what you mean by micro level dynamics...are you talking about the attack-sustain-decay thing on each note? or something else?
I know that overall dynamics use like my example just above here would be limited to individual playing or small groups of people who have been playing together for a long time and know what's going to happen, or are REALLY paying attention to each other.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by justjim
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
I you play in a session where people are not really paying attention to each other, I'd strongly suggest you do something about it.
DiddLey -I de diDdleY i dE DIddleY i De
What we mean by micro level dynamics is that unlike classical music, where you are taught to play phrases very evenly with clear constant pressure, diddley music phrases have a wide variety of dynamics over a very short space. It's all part of articulation. Diddley music is packed to the brim with it.
And it's important to think of all the definitions of dynamics, not just changes in volume. Think of it as a dynamic system, like a big river delta, constantly changing and weaving.
Strange things happen down at the micro level. For example, playing a note slightly early has a similar effect as playing it on time, but a little louder, hence the subtleties of swing. And playing a note very very quickly does not sound like a note, it sounds like an interruption of another note, hence fast rolls sound like three notes not five, hence your standard bowed or banjo triplet being substitutable for the fast roll. And slow rolls are somewhere in between sounding like three or five notes, hence they can't be substitutes with a plucked instrument.
These are all reasons why I think it can be very misleading to use slow down software to learn tunes. It can be interesting from a technical point of view to hear how the music is actually constructed, but if you practice along with slowed down music you will be getting all the micro articulations all wrong.
# Posted on May 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
ceolachan and Key Maniac Lad made excellent points about dynamics. Obviously there is dynamics within Irish music. They are different from the notated form found within transcribed western art music (i.e. mp, fff, etc.). If you're not used to listening to trad music, and you approach it with a 'classical' head on your shoulders, it's possible to draw this conclusion, but only because you don't really understand what's going on.
!@£$%^&*() mentioned 3 great fiddle players whose music demonstrates dynamics - regardless of your interest in dynamics, you should listen to them all as they are three of the best musicians this tradition has ever produced. Be aware that Potts had a profound influence on Canny, so there is some common ground there. I would also recommend listening to Joe Cooley - iconic galway box player. There is huge dynamic range within his playing. Also Tony MacMahon, a veritable 'disciple' of Cooley. Clips are available on youtube. Check out MacMahon playing Ships are sailing and tell me you don't hear dynamics!!!!
There is evidence of dynamics being 'squeezed' out of modern commercia recordings, with the overuse of dynamic compression. While compresion is a very useful sound engineers tool, if overused it can literally squeeze the life out of the music, remoing all sense of lift generated by subtle changes in dynamics.
So, in conclusion, Irish music has lots of dynamics. If you don't hear them in your local session, then ditch it and stay at home listening to the greats, like meehan, canny, potts, macmahon and cooley.
# Posted on May 10th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
Kudos to Llig & Ceolachan. Amazingly insightful. If you guys weren't "across the pond", I'd probably look you up
# Posted on May 26th 2008 by hauke
Re: Traditionalist view of dynamics
There are also, as a side issue, trad pieces that incorporate the use of dramatic dynamics into their structure. The fox chase, for example. Or, to take an English example, the fade-out when playing the Abbots Bromley Horn Dance.
Actually, this would make a really good topic for a dissertation.
# Posted on May 26th 2008 by benhall.1