Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Having read many post on this site with many strong opinions on the way Irish music is played stylistically, I pose the question: is there a need for greater articulated subdivisions of Irish music?
To put the topic in loose terms, there appears to be two camps; Traditionalists and 'Evolutionists'. One issue I have with this whole debate is that these two apposing views are stuck within this same terminology of ITM. IMHO, the so called 'Evolutionists' have little connection to the body of work and performers that fall under traditionists.
What appears to have happened is a new genre has developed. This is unsuprising as it has happened before in many other genres in music - jazz and blues, standalone genres in their own right, find their origins in ragtime and many sub genres have developed with classical music (serailism and the academic works of Arnold Schoenberg all span out of the relinquishing of tonality within classical music).
So can we not articulate this difference? To my ears, this 'Evolution' (i use brackets because I don't agree with this term, evolution implies it has developed from something lesser into something better, which I firmly believe it hasn't, but this is a common label used when discussing it) has born itself out of commercialisation of ITM. So why not Irish Commercial Music, ICM? Personally I would find this of great benefit. Many aspects of the larger body of Irish Music; things like Riverdance, Mike McGolderick, etc., do not appeal to me in the slightest. It's not for me to say they are sh*t, but if they fall within another genre of music, it's easier for me to deal with. i.e. I like ITM (coleman, potts, casey, tansey) and not ICM. In the same way I can say I like classical music of the romantic period and 20th century russia, but not pre-baroque or medieval period.
The knee-jerk reaction to point at 'evolution' within traditional irish music and say 'that's cr*p' does little to say why, or to deal with the problem. For me, there are two fundamental differences between the two. Firstly, the music is performed for money/fame/recognition. In some ways it's a business. Numerous academic institutions have set up third level degree courses to cater for irish music, and the emphasis always seems to be on this aspect of the music, which is understandable to a degree (pardon the pun). People do degrees to get jobs (there are exceptions to this, but it is a significant aspect of it). Therefore, in order to validate the degree, you need people coming out of it, making money, and the obvious way to do that is teach music which is commercially viable. This does little to help the tradition. ITM has commercialism within it, coleman recorded commercially and changed the face of fiddle playing and ITM. Touhey was an astute businessman and recorded cylinders on request. However, I would argue the music was used to make them money, but not sacrificed stylistically. Put it this way, they'd play like that whether the mic was on or not.
The second difference between the two is the content of the music. Certain characteristics exist within ITM. Most noteably the idea or variation/ornimentation, particularly within the melodic instruments. Commercial Irish music very often changes this in a number of ways. Many instances of cross pollinisation occur, mixing Irish music with other musics from around the world. Riverdance is a perfect example, the combination of Irish music with Balkan music (particularly in the aspect of time signatures - not too many old boys in Clare play tunes in 11/16). With this mix the emphasis within the music changes. Often arrangements come into play, and the development within the music comes from orchestration rather than melodic interpretation. Sometimes the tunes are tradtional in origin, sometimes they are new compositions supposedly written in a traditional style, but most commonly they are not played traditionally. Melodic development is not the focus, drums coming in on the second tune, then the bass dropping out for four bars, then the bongos do a solo etc. is the focus. Tansey wrote in the preface to the Bardic Apostles of Innisfree that cross pollinisation of music amounts to bastardisation - the music is neither one thing or the other. While I may disagree with the way he delivers his points on occasion, I do think he is right. So rather than lump this 'bastard' music in with ITM, articulate it as something else, then there needs to be no ill-feeling between the opposing camps.
The people who play this commercial irish music aren't neccessarliy bad people, they don't all stab school children or rape puppies, and many of them are good musicians, at least from a technical point of view, but I for one would find it much easier to deal with if I though of them as a seperate entity, whose music may find it's origins in ITM, but is a seperate genre.
What to you all think? By the way, I apologise for any spelling mistakes, I'm very drunk.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"I'm definaley an evo but still listen to and respect trad music."
Erm, I would argue with this a bit. How can you respect trad music and play what you call evo? It doesn't equate. Just like you can't be a member of the Nazi party and respect fiddler on the roof.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
This is very ill thought out. Do you really really think that Mike McGolderick plays for money, fame and recognition? You must have never met the bloke.
Of course the music evolves (evolve doesn't mean get better by the way, it simply means change). Flute music evolved to where it was before Matt Molloy started playing, and now it has evolved to a point where it's very difficult to find a flute player not influenced by Matt Malloy. Whether or not you like Tansey, or Molly or McGolderick is utterly irrelevant. They are all great players and each have gone through the process that makes them assuredly tradition Irish musicians, in that they have learned, absorbed, internalised, respected and not disgurded the music of their forefathers.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Hey and good post. I personally get around this issue by viewing the genre that I like as the playing of tunes. I don't really like the term 'traditional music', because there are tunes we all play by the likes of Charlie Lennon which aren't technically traditional and that has been the case all the way through. At some point, Cooleys reel wasn't even traditional. I then don't like calling it 'Irish music' because many reels such as Bonny Kate aren't Irish.
So, I consider myself not as a traditional or Irish music player but what I call a trad musician which I defined as someone who plays tunes, which I'd then go on to define but wont bore you here.
Then, I'm happy for Coleman and Mc Goldrick to exist in the same camp. I don't think that the genre should be sub-divided out of taste. We all have our tastes but to me what other people like is as unimportant to me as my views should be to them. Many people don't like Classical but liking or disliking it is missing the point of how good it actually is.
I think trad music is essentially neither good nor bad in absolutely any case and that its value is got from observing what it's trying to say to you as much as feeling it. I'm personally as happy listening or playing in the style of 1920's musicians as I am with the modern musicians. They all have something to say, and to that extent, I feel it important to try hear what exactly that is. Whoever or whatever they are.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Of course music evolves, it changes, mutates whatever you want to call it.
I doubt that a 'blues' musician of the late forties would find much in common with a 'thrash metal' musician but they are part of a continuous line of development.
Am I right in thinking that it might be 'overproduced' product that you object to? For example the work of Moving Hearts?
In some respects I would agree with you but you cannot deny the musicality of such performers. I just wish it were possible to get away from such inflammatory terms as cr*p and sh*t when describing something that someone doesn't like.
If you want to sit in a bar and play a few tunes fine, if you able to produce something like McGoldrick that's fine too; labeling always leads to discontent and division and name calling. Life's too short, huh?
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I'm sorta with Michael on this, of course all music has to evolve. Total respect to the earliest practitioners of the art, some of them never bettered, however, to keep the music alive and to keep the next generations interested, evolution is necessary, experimental fun and can be good/bad/indifferent/pointless depending on your stance. Remember the benchmarks and you won't go too far wrong
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Difficult to see where you'd draw the line between evos and trads.
I think there's something in the issue, but to me it's about the increasing complexity of band arrangements, as Worzel does touch on. The Dubliners and The Bothy Band certainly wanted to be successful, but their arrangements were comparatively simple as a rule compared to some of today's. Mind, some tradophiles then disliked the clavinet, bouzouki and guitar of the Bothies, at any rate. This one's been going on for some time.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
It's an interesting topic. And it doesn't just happen with Irish music. I have read that Greek Australian musicians, returning 'home' find local people smiling and teasing them about their quaint language and music playing...because both their language and their music is like a time capsule of the late 40's and early 50's - the time when their parents or grandparents emigrated. They use antiquated swear words and slang, and as far as local musicians are concerned, play in an old fashioned and outdated style. But greek musicologists love the visiting emigrant musicians for this very reason.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
llig leahcim, I didn't make the point that McGolderick plays entirely for money/fame/recognition. I used his commercial style of music as an example of the music I was talking about. I deliberalty don't want to get into the slagging of specific individuals, which is why I favour the articulation of the differences, so they can be considered different. I have met McGolderick, he is a very nice man and one of the reasons I do want to catergorise his music as something other than trad is because of this, i.e. very nice guy but not my type of music.
I didn't say evolution means getting better, I said that in the terms of irish music, it implies it, particularly within the body of people who play 'evolutionist' irish music.
Your comment that musical taste is 'utterly irrelevant' is not one I would adhere to. In fact, I'd say it's fundamental to your own identity within the music. Certain musicians transend the normal realms of music, to the point where they become part of the tradition, rather than just performers of the tradition. Coleman, Potts, Touhey, etc. There is argument that McGolderick has done this if you consider what he plays as a different genre to the others, but I certainly don't see it as part of the same thing, or his contribution leaving much to ITM flute playing within the structure as I see it.
All opinions are valid, debate aids understanding, and I know my views are not shared by everyone. But they are my own opinions; I believe them and I would also believe they are reasonably well informed opinions. I welcome others to offer their own.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
This is a good idea.
The label "commercial" implies that Irish music done for pay necessarily has a different style than traditional Irish music.
The Chieftans, who have been more successful than anyone at making money from playing ITM, still play it pretty straight (I'm talking the style of the playing, not the choice of repertoire).
But the point is well taken that the style heard on many commerical recordings is a very different style than the traditional style still heard at sessions.
Perhaps "Irish fusion"? "Irish new age"? No title I can think of sounds right.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Personally, I like my reels pretty straight. I even like a lot of my hornpipes pretty straight. And I hate bodrans. You could say that the music I like is of the subgenre instrumental/diddley/straight/nonbodhran. But does giving it a label help?
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Without recordings though...how would you know it's evolved and changed though?
Cos isn't part of the wonderful world of ITM that it's about the aural transmission of music and that the very transmission this way keeps it changing subtlely over time and keeps it alive rather than being from some sort of musical museum ?
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
What about subdivision of genres into sub-genres in ITM though - wouldn't their be a distinction between ornamented traditional and non-ornamented? Possibly at some point ornamented ITM was regarded as 'new-fangled', if not 'evo'.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Yes Curvyfiddle, the music does change, and recorded music (both commercial and non-commercial) plays a major part in it's development. But if it changes into something so radically different as to be almost unrecognisable from the original form, does it not warrant a new label? We evolved from apes, but we are not still called apes. I don't want to turn this into a debate of definitions or Darwinism, just to make my point.
llig leahcim, your example of a subgroup based on your taste doesn't ring true to me. We share opinions in regard to bodhrans, but i'd prefer to say I hate bad bodhran players, rather than the instrument itself. There are no crap instruments, just crap musicians playing the instrument (with the possible exception of the piano accordion which I feel lacks the dynamic response associated with ITM due to the fact there is no difference between the pull and the push in tuning. Although I once played a session with Jimmy Keane and he was, I thought, the exception to this rule, so maybe I've just counter-argued my own statement!) Disliking something is no big deal, we all have tastes, if we didn't it would be a bad world. But not liking the bodhran does not create a subgenre for you to pidgeon-hole yourself in. Christ, the real purist might argue that it's all bastard music and instrumentation apart from bodhran and pipes, and we should all learn one or the other if we want to be part of the tradition, and there's way too much going on in the pipes to ever attempt learning them, so I'd be stuck with the goat!
P.S. what's the difference between a bodhran and a trampoline? You take your shoes off to jump on a trampoline.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
One of the subgenres I'm rather partial too is the subgenre "single reels in G on the flute with lots of Mat Molloy kind of bubbly bits". Though it would be uselful to subdivide this further into "single reels in G on the flute that start on a B with lots of Mat Molloy kind of bubbly bits". I'm not so sure the three part ones deserve another subsubsubgenre to the two part ones. What would happen if someone wrote another part to a two part one? That would really mess the system up.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
On reflection, I agree, Creating a subgenre through personal taste is probably not the right way to go about it. Like trying to divide it up between music that has evolved into something you like and music that has evolved into something you don't
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
my point is that your division is based on taste i.e. what you don't like. mine is based on structural differences within the music. I am deliberately trying to avoid letting my personal taste taint this, thus trying to work out a labelling system that lets me say why I like one thing and not the other, rather than just slagging.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"...thus trying to work out a labelling system that lets me say why I like one thing and not the other"
I think it would be very useful and convenient thing, if such a labelling system could be agreed upon. But that's kinda unlikely, isn't it ? The problems are obvious, re the many arguments about the 'celtic' label, which everybody agrees, has almost nothing to be said in its favour, but gets used because nobody can agree on a better label. As Churchill said of democracy, paraphrased, it's crap, but everything else is worse.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Ok, WorzelGummidge. So, if someone tells me how much they enjoyed Riverdance, I'll say, 'Yeah, but it's ICM. I prefer ITM'. Do you think that's got legs, as a practical solution ? I'm doubtful...
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"So, if someone tells me how much they enjoyed Riverdance, I'll say, 'Yeah, but it's ICM. I prefer ITM"
The solution is not to turn round to them and say anything, but simply to bitch-slap them. Or even better, get a ring with ICM printed backwards on it, then punch them in the head.
I joke of course. But seriously, a defeatist attitude won't acheive anything. I don't even think it needs a 'label' as such, just an understnading that it in't the all the same, coleman and riverdance are not the same genre of music.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"Neanderthal" ~ for a start, but then I could see one faction putting the other under that label and the other doing the same in kind... The problem with labeling is that sometimes that is the process you go through just before pickling a thing in fermaldahyde or nailing it to a display board to slide into a museum's display drawer... It may actually be better that we have to define clearly what we mean, rather than depending on subject headings like the amoeba 'Celtic'. The other good thing about it being open ended and requiring a description rather than a throw away label is that can also generate discussion, argument ~ and ~ it leaves it so you can develop your description with the development of your own tastes and preferences ~ and the general direction a living thing takes, like music ~ constantly in flux and trying desperately to avoid the fermaldahyde or needle... Maybe that is good? ~ that you can't quite put your finger on it, that it is slippery, varied and constantly moving...not dead...alive! It keeps us on our toes, less likely to take it all for granted, which a simple system of labeling would suggest...
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
~ & hopefully trying to accomplish some level of diplomacy in the act of description... Listen to me, who has often slipped on my own petard when responding against the likes of Riverdance with my forefingers crossed and held before me in the form of a cross. "Get ye back Satan!"
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Worzel makes some very valid points.
Aficionados of "Evolution" are inclined to simplify the music - Well, Fine, if that's what they want to do. I would argue, though, that what they play is in many instances not ITM according to any reasonable definition of same.
I dislike being told by the Evos that the music *is* simple, or should be, that technique does not matter, & that it is in some sense atavistic to seek to master the complexity.
Y'know the quote from Francis Bacon about the alchemists seeking to make gold -
Gold hath these Natures: Greatnesse of Weight; Closeness of Parts; Fixation; Pliantnesse, or softnesse; Immunitie from Rust; Colour or Tincture of Yellow. Therefore the Sure Way, (though most about,) to make Gold, is to know the Causes of the Severall Natures before rehearsed, and the Axiomes concerning the same. For if a man can make a Metall, that hath all these Properties, Let men dispute, whether it be Gold, or no?
- idem ITM. My point is that ITM has specific salient characteristics. Change them, and what you get is not ITM.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
exactly Sean Lead Liath, you play golf but replace the golf ball with a chicken it's not golf anymore, although that sounds like fun..........i'll be back in a bit.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Back, neighbouring farmer not pleased about this chicken, but did get almost 200 yards with a Big Bertha driver. Nice. ceolachan, dunno, what's an itty bitty waste?
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
We could come up with all sorts of interesting acronyms and new terms to describe the spectrum .....
From Historically Accurate 19th century replica ITM through to Totally Modern but Creatively inspired by the instruments and rhythms of ITM. Now how many grades or shades lie between those two extremes?
I happen to like the whole spectrum. It's ALL better than most the junk they call music on commercial radio.......
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
CurvyFiddle I'd have to say I disagree with your last statement. I'd much rather listen to commercial radio and music I have no interest in then the ICM I keep referring to. To my ears it's offensive, not in the sense that the people playing it are offensive to me and I wanna physically hurt them, but that what has been done to the artform of ITM is offensive. Britney Spears, Boyzone and the rest provoke no reaction to me. I wouldn't listen to them at all if given a choice, but I'd prefer it to ICM.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Beyond the obvious contemporary vs traditional, i hear big differences in the tradtional stuff. I'm not irish, i'm 100% american - but i can tell donegal, from clare or sligo.
the problem for me is the bland melange that ends up at a lot of american sessions - the quater-note laden merry blacksmith with no vartiations, the yawn of munster, the cable-knit underwear inspired version of the butterfly that invokes fairies & granola bearing leprachuans.
Maybe you can tell i've had it to teeth with bar sessions, but there's something to be said of trying to delve into a good solo recording & trying to get it all - not only the tune, but the swing, variations, ornaments, sets etc.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Sean Lead Liath ~ I love it...well put...
While I don't like it all, I'm glad that it is an open door and encompasses all that variety. I can only hope that the misdirected and deluded will see the light and be drawn in... BZZZZT! CRACKLE!! FIZZZZZ!!!
I have yet to find any of my Leprechaun friends tottin' granola bars... It must be an American branch. They probably all wear kelly green, short britches, a hat, buckles on their shoes and on the hat and looking embarrassingly like one of those garden elf thingamajigs... You know, some have fishing poles.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Yes, here the fairies and the hippies for some reason have cross-pollinated and now you have the King of the Fairies wearing Birkenstocks and eating Ben and Jerry's while he jams at the drum circle...dude.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I was interested in the account (curvyfiddle?) of Australian Greek musicians who'd stayed in a bit of a time-warp, playing old-fashioned music and using old-fashioned slang.
I'd casually assumed that Irish musicians, in America anyway, became more extrovert and cosmopolitan in their music and maybe other respects, and maybe some did. But it stands to reason that others didn't, and were more retiring / clung to what they already had and valued / had their hands full just getting by in the new country, let alone trying to make waves in it.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
For some people, ITM is a local tradition and style and they only play that corner of the tradition.
People with no ties to any particular locality or style may play a mix-and-match of vvarious traditions and styles. They can still do that in a traditional manner/style by the choice of tunes, the arrangements and even the setting of the session (house ,small pub or local dance rather than big festival).
I don't consider the tradition is watered down as Scottish and Northumbrian tunes seep into sessions - it always was thus. I have a little more concern regarding some of the Eastern European influences that have been there for some time - they really are from a totally different tradition with different scales, tonalities and can be a little alien to Western European ears.
Some people would insist they are from Asia rather than from countries that have recently joined the EU. (Continents seem to be redefined in political terms rather than geographically, nowadays)
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
There is no doubt that music changes ("evolves") perpetually - even in the way the same musician will play the same tune over the course of a lifetime.
All options are available to all of us - and we can choose to play - or simply listen to - as many as we want. They do not have to be mutually exclusive.
For example - I like to try and play the tune 'The Butterfly' - I probably have my own slightly quirky way of trying to play it. I am constrained by my own ability and am influenced by all the music I have heard - including those I regulalry play with.
In the case of 'The Butterfly' I have recordings by Tommy Potts, the Bothy Band, and Kevin Burke solo. They are all good. None is intrinsically the right way to play the tune - none is 'wrong' - but they are all different - and they result from a complex series of influences and experiments by those playing them. The recorded versions capture one instance of a playing of the tune - a day later the same musicians may well have recorded them differently - emphasising slightly different aspects.
We need to classify to stay sane - but classifications can always be made to break down - they are not absolute truths
One of the buggest mistakes I have made with music is to assume that I will not like particular genres and thereby to shut myself out of whole areas which I later realised I did like.
I really regret never seeing the Bothy Band play live - but I wonder if somebody had actually said to me in 1977 did I want to go and see this bunch of people palying folk music I would probably have turned it down as I was stuck in a 'dinosaur' rock pase at that point in my life.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
The difference between being progressive and conservative about one's interpretation of music is whether one wants to enshrine and perpetuate past deeds of great masters, or whether one wants to view past practitioners as being progressive in their own right, in their own time, and carrying forward their spirit of newness that they assuredly brought to the art form. Luckily, we need both types of people, so pick the one that suits you best.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Even those old timers I've known who used the term "jungle music" as a category for something they had a slight disdane for, were interested in other musics, and would have gone out of their way to listen in if given the opportunity... Some even crossed back and forth and even played sax or drum kit... This includes Donegal scrappers and Sliabh Luachra box sqeezers... I find music opens me up the more intimate I get with it.
Nice description of the function of categories Edgar ~ "- they are not absolute!" ~ if only that were true in every use. They can also contribute to standardization, sterilization, degradation, unfair judgement and exclusion...
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Here's a quote from an old post of mine that applies to this situation:
"I like to look at it as a gradient. There are people that push for "preserving tradition", and there are people that try to "push the envelope" in progressive ways. And everything in between. That's the important part - most of us fall somewhere in the middle - in the gray area of the gradient. And so the very fact that the extremes exist is what allows the "middle" to exist. The push and pull that inevitably happens on this very debate has ALWAYS been there!
As Michael said, "... if it is fluid, then it can't be pure...", but the fluidity is what makes it live and breathe. If it were pure - or "preserved", it would be dead. Something that you hang on the wall to look at."
Trying to draw lines between the different sub-genres would be impossible and useless, because it's too fluid. What's wrong with just saying "I like that, but I don't like that", instead of trying to break it up into pieces? Is it because you have some need to disown the stuff you don't like so that you're not associated with it?
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Reverend I agree there are divisions and gradients within perception of most things of this nature. Reminds me of Rudolf Bultmann and Demythologisation of the New Testement - there needs to be extreme views on either side to allow for a middle ground to appear. But I feel you are missing the point I'm trying to make -
"Is it because you have some need to disown the stuff you don't like so that you're not associated with it?"
If I like it or not is not the issue. I don't, but that's not the point. The point is, if you were to examine this 'evo' stream of music, it is so far removed from ITM in terms of structure and musicality that it should warrant another name. In the same way that Jazz and Blues are two seperate genres. It exists within Classical music too; you couldn't pair Vivaldi and Stockhausen into the same pidgeon-hole.
A lot of 'purists' have issue with 'evo' irish music, as people have been calling it. I think to lump it together is actually of deprement to the tradition, and I worry that, because this commercial music is by it's nature more easily obtainable than the purist trad, people growing up into the music, without proper guidence, will believe this is the music that represents Ireland's indigenous artform.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Jeez, these threads can go all over the place! We create catagories to save time in looking for what it is we're looking for. And we refine those catagories depending on who we're talking to. The term "Irish Music" is just fine for most of the general public, and ITM is handy for those who want to play session tunes. "Pub Songs" is good for those who follow the Clancys.
Any further "pigeon holes" need to be chosen by those who play the "evolved" forms. It's not particularly helpful for an ITM musician to classify the "other" music as ICM ('commmercial" has a negative connotation in many circles), so I encourage those who play that "other" music to choose a identifier that they like, before one is chosen for them.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I don't actually think there's much danger of the "Pure" tradition dying. Too many kids have become too good for that to happen.
The pure stuff is never going to become mainstream in commercial markets, because the nuance that "Purist" ears hear is not really accessible to the mainstream. I'm sure we've all had the experience of people describing the music as "Monotonous" - against renditions that, to the aficionado's ear, are varied, turned, ornamented.... &c &c &c
People will draw on the tradition, and some of the stuff that results will from time to time become popular - "Commercial" if you will. The Clancy Brothers had pleasant voices. The Dubliners - with the (arguable, but let's not go there in this thread) exception of Barney McK - were not great instrumentalists. The Riverdance & Ronan Hardiman Flatley music draw on the tradition, but are not really of it.
I did comment some time ago though in another thread that I mourned the passing of real music from some Kerry pubs, to be replaced by second-rate stuff and a lot of schmaltz. But the real music is still being played in peoples' houses.
I'm not really sure that developing elaborate taxonomies serves much useful purpose.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
But WorzelGummidge, don't you think that this kind of tension has always existed?
My point was that it is something that keeps the tradition living and breathing. Trying to classify it as something else is like cutting off one of your fingers because it has developed an ugly wart. You might not like it, but it's still part of the whole that makes up "the tradition" (which is kind of a nebulous concept anyway).
So you fall toward the traditionalist end of the spectrum, and McGoldrick et al fall toward the evolutionary end of the spectrum, and that's what keeps all of us in the middle with a vibrant, wonderful music to learn and love.
As far as the more commercial aspects of it being bad for the tradition, I tend to think of it the other way around. Bands like Lúnasa are more accessible to the ear of someone who grew up listening to Rock & Roll, for instance. The first thing they notice is that it has bass, and is appealing to people because it is produced like a good rock recording. So that's like the hook on the end of the line that helps get new people interested in the tradition. I can't tell you how many times I've seen players drawn in because of music like that, but a couple years later, they're asking for Paddy Carty and Seamus Ennis recordings.
And I should be an expert, because I was one of the ones that was drawn into the tradition by some of the fringe elements like that. (BTW, I would say that I now fall toward the traditionalist end of the spectrum too...)
And yes, there are people out there in the world that think that Riverdance was pure and traditional, etc. But those aren't people that matter when it comes to "preserving the tradition", because they're just consumers, and don't play an active roll in the whole thing...
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Lots of topics to discuss
BurtDaBard, you made a very valid point that the terminology of this should not be assigned by someone who is not within that aspect of the music. 'Commercial' music may, for many, have negative connotations. I understand that many of these people who play this music do it because it is there means of musical expression. It is not solely for the money. People derive enjoyment from it, and who am I to say that that is a bad thing. I'm not even suggesting that there is a 'label' put on it, as if to create a new sub catogory of Irish Music in your local HMV store. But it does appear to have spun off to such an extent that it doesn't really feel part of the same musical entity.
Irish music is important in a lot of ways. It is an indigenous music and corrilates to many other aspects, social and political, within the Irish nation. There are strong links within the music and the language; regional style of playing almost paralleling local dialects, as well as migration. The work done by organisations such as the ITMA and NPU is of benefit and importance to the nation, not just the musicians who listen and play trad. Tansey calls Irish music 'The heartbeat of a nation'. I'm inclined to agree. Sean Lead Liath makes the point
"I don't actually think there's much danger of the "Pure" tradition dying. Too many kids have become too good for that to happen."
Again, I agree. There are many truely gifted young musicians playing music today. I am very fortunate to know a few of them, and many feel very strongly about this subject as well and I firmy believe that this reiterates Tansey's point. It can not, and will not die, because it is an intrinsic part of the the Irish nation.
People mentioned earlier on in the tread that music naturally evolves. I think this is clear to see in Irish music, but not in the ways that many have put it forward on the board. Two key areas of 'evolution' within the 'purist' form of ITM are the cross pollinisation of regional styles and the envelopment of new instruments into the tradition. A lot of this is (somewhat ironically) to do with commercial Irish music. The 20s recordings of the likes of Coleman, Morrison etc. had a profound impact on how people were playing Irish music. Rather than listening to the local boys and playing like them, recordings of musicians were influencing how people play their music. Many of us are influenced by musicians that we have never heard play live, indeed had passed away before we were even born. Also these recordings brought new instruments into the tradition, to the point were piano and guitar accompniment are now considered very much part of the 'purist' scene. This is evidence of evolution, mixing in it with other genres does nothing to develop it, it only serves to strip the music down to the basic elements that work well with other genres. ITM is a dance music; not exclusively I know, but it does seem to be the aspect of the genre that is latched onto. But the development of the tune, the subtleties of tone, the choice of variations, all the things that Sean Lead Liath refers to are not reflected in this music, so how can it be the same genre?
Yes Reverend, I too came into the music through avenues that you refer to as 'fringe' elements. I think anything that acts as a gateway into the likes of Ennis and Paddy Carty can't be a bad thing. Put to say it's the SAME thing......
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"Jiggin The Blues" - now that's the real deal! Rick Epping, aah, fond memories, Tim Edey, phew! and of course, the bushman himself, playing brilliantly, actually. Trad-blues? where's that Steve Shaw when you need him?
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I guess I fall decidedly in the: mostly instrumental/occasional songs as long as they are the fun singalong Clancy Brothers types/lightly swung/swing tuned/guitar-backed/Irish-American/oh yeah and some Scots tunes also tradition. (!!???!!)
Everyone everywhere should play as much music as possible. Not only will the world be a better place, but the academics will have something to categorize and keep them occupied. And I would hazard a guess that even folks that are accused to have "sold out" are actually playing what they love because they love it, and are just lucky enough to have struck a chord with the listeners.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Interesting read. I can't really add anything else other than to say it still blows me away to hear folk refer to Lunasa as a fringe element.
To me, Flogging Molly is a fringe element. Lunasa is pure drop.
Pardon me. I think I'm gonna go watch my Solas DVD now.
;-D
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Hey Chris, I always find these topics amusing because some of the folks around here seem to have beards as long as Rip Van Winkle's
The bottom line is that EVERYTHING we do as reiteration is based on interpretation. An interpretation of a "thing" is NOT, and can never be, the exact thing we are attempting to interpret. Even little teeny tiny super subtle variations marks the evolution of the thing towards something different. ITM is an interpretive, "evolving" art form just like any other. I think glomming on to the "purely traditional" aspect of the music (as fun and as challenging as it may be for some) is merely an attempt to slow the march of time--which is, unfortunately, as relentlessly destructive of human endeavor as it is of mountain ranges...
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I was just about to explain why Lunasa isn't pure drop, but then I took the time to read this first:
"A "Plastic Paddy"? Nay, I prefer the term "Celtifornian" LOL (...) I live in Cloverdale, CA and have been listening to ITM for about 10 years now. I picked up the bodhran..."
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
GW,
LOL, I agree. There's a few guys here who want to keep ITM the variety they have in their kitchens with 2 or 3 close friends o'er a cup 'o' tea.
I think Rip Van Winkle posted right below you.
Actually Dow, I admire to a degree, your dedication to pure drop ITM. And I really believe that the more a person can learn about the real thing the better they will be if and when they try to fuse it with other varieties of music. I love "kitchen trad". (How's that for a label?) I wish I was better at playing it on my GUITAR or my bodhran. I wish I had more exposure to it. I wish I had a teacher!
But I don't.
I do have a sense of humor. Even for bodhran jokes at the right place and time and from the right person. This time however, you're being an arse. So I'll put you on the same list as Llig and Phantom Button.
Actually, I do get what puts Lunasa on a fringe list. It's the use of a double bass and guitar. Particularly the very percussive guitar style that Donogh played. It gives them a very rock-n-roll feel. Even when the rest of the band is faithful to the tradition. I feckin' love it just the same. It ain't Riverdance nor is it... moldy.
And THAT is what makes them so great.
Have a nice evening, cheers, slainte or whatever.
Your friendly neighborhood CELTIFORNIAN.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Dow, I feel like I need to post one more time. My previous post had some emotion to it and I want to sound lucid.
We (the people of planet earth) need a few folks like you to keep the pure tradition alive. Roots count. But if you chase off beginners with nasty jokes, your tradition is gonna die a lot sooner than you think.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Hmm, it seems I need to explain after all. Look, this has nothing to do with keeping the pure tradition alive. I like Lunasa too, but I like them for the non-traditional music they choose to play. I'm sure the band members themselves would agree that the music they play as a band is not traditional in its strictest sense. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the whole point of the band in the first place - to play something that's not traditional. For starters they create slick arrangements with variations in the tune that are agreed upon beforehand by the melody players so that they can play exactly the same thing in unison. There's also the untraditional backing aspect of it that you mentioned. Then there's the untraditional funky harmonies they do, especially with multiple whistles, and there's the new, funky compositions with crooked bits, and the addition of Breton tunes and suchlike. Not to mention the addition of electronic effects like distortion (listen to their version of Dr. Gilbert's). It's great stuff, but it's not traditional. It's a band of traditional musicians who are good enough to get away with doing experimental stuff. Your mistake is to confuse those band arrangements with the music those musicians grew up playing and have taken to a very high level technically.
And as for the "nasty" bodhran joke.. it wasn't a joke, I was serious! I *actually* didn't get past the word bodhran, because tears of laughter were making my vision go all blurry.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I ran across a word in my travels that was not meant to be a good thing, and it lies alongside another ~ nothing against California in general and its population, but here are the relative terms for consideration ~
Californication ~ I heard this with regads to gingerbread houses that go up in a weekend and are cladded with paper thin aluminium. One good wind and the skin begins to peel ~ cheap, fast and pretentious...'silly' also comes to mind...
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
i think that dow's point about lunasa is very discerning. and my quarrel with the lunasas---well, the band members are not the ones, it is the lemmings & imitators----isn't the playing of what might be termed "nontraditional traditionally-inspired styles," it is the mentality, and this mentality is rampant, that the nontraditional-traditional is somehow superior and the "pure drop" is obsolete and discardable. more power to, and fair play to, those who start out traditional and then want to branch out into fusion and experiment. but the concomitant de-valuing and denigration of "pure drop" styles is unsophisticated and provincial. the flame of high-quality, purely traditional playing will still be burning when the dross of the experimental stuff (and 95% of it is completely forgettable at best, and awful at worst) has been forgotten. both forms of creative artistry----creating by experimenting or fusing or extending or morphing, versus creating within established forms, are co-equal in value.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Slainte's point about ITM becoming world music resonates with
me, especially since I heard Paddy Glackin say the same thing
in an RTE interview. Some people say they play Tunes rather
than having to say they play
Irish-Scottish-Breton-Shetland-New England music
However I have not yet heard an Indian or Japanese tune
in a session (as far as I know)
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Hey Chris,
Regarding Dow, Llig and Phantom Button...
I don't know how long you've been hanging here on the mustard board, but these guys are an OK lot. Irascible at times (Dow and Llig most of the time), but they are a wealth of info--if you can filter the delivery. The guitar and bodhran slagging is simply part of the hazing these ITM officianados inflict on those of us they consider "outsiders" of the "true" tradition. It's all a bunch of hot air and they know it--because I'm more than sure there's a guitarist and a bodhran player (or two) in their inner circles who they share session time and pints with week after week.
Remember a while back when Llig mentioned he had the chance to play a few tunes with John Doyle? He actually sounded quite giddy--not to mention complimentary! Dow interpreted an odd version of Morning Star for me that has since worked its way into our regular set (I doubt he would like what we do with it--but maybe he would since we don't promote ourselves as ITM. Phantom is a local (so you got to give him slack )and has played (and recorded) with some great guitar players--including Junji Shirota. (A couple of years ago Mags and I caught a show at the Black Rose in Santa Rosa with Junji, Paddy Keenan and Frankie Gavin! Great players and a very entertaining evening.)
Anyway, as KML once told me, don't take the slagging too seriously. He was right. Just learn from these ITM freaks and slap them back when the get their head too far up their own arse
The ones to beware of are the academic proselytizers who bleed the passion out of young(er) musicians because they were never as good as they thought they should be. Ever done college level music training? If so I rest my case.
BTW, which Solas DVD were you watching? I watched the "Solas Live" and thought it was OK. Nothing to write home about--though JD was brilliant as usual. (Solas... Oh, I can hear the grumbling Rip Vans now... )
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"'proselytizers'"I had to look that one up. lol..."
I think I was a bit ambiguous in the wording. What I meant to say was:
"The ones to beware of are the academic proselytizers who ATTEMPT TO bleed the passion out of LESS EXPERIENCED musicians IN "THEIR" GENRE because they THEMSELVES were never as good OR FAMOUS as they thought they should be."
I had heard that the Reunion DVD was better than the earlier live release. I'll check it out...
You coming out to the Boonville Beer Fest on Saturday?? We're playing a couple of long sets from 3:00 - 6:00 PM. Should be a fun time.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I'm sick of people trying to divide irish traditional music into genres because it is a genre in itself.
Right a couple of points here:
1: Talking about how tunes like 'Lucy Campbells' or a charlie lennon tune for instance 'Kilty Town' and saying that we can't call it irish music because these tunes aren't originally irish or have not been around long enough is ridiculous!
It is the same as saying that if you compose a ragtime tune now for instance that it is not ragtime because it was not composed around the time it was at its most popular. This is despite it having all the characteristics of the genre and fitting in perfectly. To me I would class it as ragtime, not something else.
You might as well say, oh its not irish traditional music because the fiddle isn't irish, or the flute, or the banjo, or whatever, the whoel idea of that is just nitpicking. If the tune or instrument fits the genre and sounds like a traditional irish tune then thats what it is. Lucy campbells has been played for so long that it is now part of the repertoire, you could say that because donegal music is made up by a lot of highlands or whatever that it should not be called traditional irisi music. Its the same thing. The Golden Eagle hornpipe was originally an american tune before it was changed to a hornpipe, and now i would class that as traditional because of the sound its given. John Carty made a good point about tunes when he described John McEvoy 'Kilglas Lakes' sounding like 'its been around for ages'. That is how i would class tunes.
2. Secondly the tunes that mcgoldrick, mayock and that crowd compose i would not class as traditional. I would class mcgoldrick as Celtic Music not irish traditional music because of the tunes and the style he plays. Celtic music is completely seperate from scottish and irish music it is a completely new genre in itself.
3. What is acceptable in irish music and what is termed irish changes over time and people have to realise that. Frankie Gavin and Alec Finn was the first recording to have a new different type of accompaniment. It is an absolute classic cd. I would term that Irish music even though it may not have been at the time. The bouzouki didnt comlpetely change the music it added to it, and that is how to differenciate what is termed irish traditional music.
If something adds to the music without completely changing it then I would call it irish traditional music. A traditional tune can still be played in a non traditional way for instance changing rythms and the like and that would start to delve into fusion music which is again completely seperate.
Musical arrangement also don't change the term traditional music. Adding something like harmonies and stuff like that is adding something that is generally used in all types of music and would not change the term. It adds something new but at the core it is still traditional. But of course this would have to be done in a tasteful way otherwise it becomes Celtic Music which is basically an exaggerrated form of scottish and irish music but with its own unique characteristics.
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Yes. Its sounds though that you would class scottish and irish music together. They sound like they are singing the same tune but really they are singing from different hymn sheets.
If we start dividing a genre into genres then we get to the point where people who want to be classed in this are not able to do this but people in this group are allowed some leeway. It doesn't make sense. There has to be some room for experimentation, but over use of these leads to the classification of celtic music. My argument is about the use of the term irish traditional music. You cant really class people in groups because everyone is different. There are cases, like celtic music, where there are notable differences as is the case with irish and scottish music. Of course there is some overspill but they are very different for the rythms they use, the tunes, the ornamentation and so on.
Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Having read many post on this site with many strong opinions on the way Irish music is played stylistically, I pose the question: is there a need for greater articulated subdivisions of Irish music?
To put the topic in loose terms, there appears to be two camps; Traditionalists and 'Evolutionists'. One issue I have with this whole debate is that these two apposing views are stuck within this same terminology of ITM. IMHO, the so called 'Evolutionists' have little connection to the body of work and performers that fall under traditionists.
What appears to have happened is a new genre has developed. This is unsuprising as it has happened before in many other genres in music - jazz and blues, standalone genres in their own right, find their origins in ragtime and many sub genres have developed with classical music (serailism and the academic works of Arnold Schoenberg all span out of the relinquishing of tonality within classical music).
So can we not articulate this difference? To my ears, this 'Evolution' (i use brackets because I don't agree with this term, evolution implies it has developed from something lesser into something better, which I firmly believe it hasn't, but this is a common label used when discussing it) has born itself out of commercialisation of ITM. So why not Irish Commercial Music, ICM? Personally I would find this of great benefit. Many aspects of the larger body of Irish Music; things like Riverdance, Mike McGolderick, etc., do not appeal to me in the slightest. It's not for me to say they are sh*t, but if they fall within another genre of music, it's easier for me to deal with. i.e. I like ITM (coleman, potts, casey, tansey) and not ICM. In the same way I can say I like classical music of the romantic period and 20th century russia, but not pre-baroque or medieval period.
The knee-jerk reaction to point at 'evolution' within traditional irish music and say 'that's cr*p' does little to say why, or to deal with the problem. For me, there are two fundamental differences between the two. Firstly, the music is performed for money/fame/recognition. In some ways it's a business. Numerous academic institutions have set up third level degree courses to cater for irish music, and the emphasis always seems to be on this aspect of the music, which is understandable to a degree (pardon the pun). People do degrees to get jobs (there are exceptions to this, but it is a significant aspect of it). Therefore, in order to validate the degree, you need people coming out of it, making money, and the obvious way to do that is teach music which is commercially viable. This does little to help the tradition. ITM has commercialism within it, coleman recorded commercially and changed the face of fiddle playing and ITM. Touhey was an astute businessman and recorded cylinders on request. However, I would argue the music was used to make them money, but not sacrificed stylistically. Put it this way, they'd play like that whether the mic was on or not.
The second difference between the two is the content of the music. Certain characteristics exist within ITM. Most noteably the idea or variation/ornimentation, particularly within the melodic instruments. Commercial Irish music very often changes this in a number of ways. Many instances of cross pollinisation occur, mixing Irish music with other musics from around the world. Riverdance is a perfect example, the combination of Irish music with Balkan music (particularly in the aspect of time signatures - not too many old boys in Clare play tunes in 11/16). With this mix the emphasis within the music changes. Often arrangements come into play, and the development within the music comes from orchestration rather than melodic interpretation. Sometimes the tunes are tradtional in origin, sometimes they are new compositions supposedly written in a traditional style, but most commonly they are not played traditionally. Melodic development is not the focus, drums coming in on the second tune, then the bass dropping out for four bars, then the bongos do a solo etc. is the focus. Tansey wrote in the preface to the Bardic Apostles of Innisfree that cross pollinisation of music amounts to bastardisation - the music is neither one thing or the other. While I may disagree with the way he delivers his points on occasion, I do think he is right. So rather than lump this 'bastard' music in with ITM, articulate it as something else, then there needs to be no ill-feeling between the opposing camps.
The people who play this commercial irish music aren't neccessarliy bad people, they don't all stab school children or rape puppies, and many of them are good musicians, at least from a technical point of view, but I for one would find it much easier to deal with if I though of them as a seperate entity, whose music may find it's origins in ITM, but is a seperate genre.
What to you all think? By the way, I apologise for any spelling mistakes, I'm very drunk.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Vive le evolution! I'm definaley an evo but still listen to and respect trad music.
I just play the music the way I like to play it!
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by davydd
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"I'm definaley an evo but still listen to and respect trad music."
Erm, I would argue with this a bit. How can you respect trad music and play what you call evo? It doesn't equate. Just like you can't be a member of the Nazi party and respect fiddler on the roof.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
This is very ill thought out. Do you really really think that Mike McGolderick plays for money, fame and recognition? You must have never met the bloke.
Of course the music evolves (evolve doesn't mean get better by the way, it simply means change). Flute music evolved to where it was before Matt Molloy started playing, and now it has evolved to a point where it's very difficult to find a flute player not influenced by Matt Malloy. Whether or not you like Tansey, or Molly or McGolderick is utterly irrelevant. They are all great players and each have gone through the process that makes them assuredly tradition Irish musicians, in that they have learned, absorbed, internalised, respected and not disgurded the music of their forefathers.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
flippin heack, it's a bit soon for goodwin's law isn't it?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Hey and good post. I personally get around this issue by viewing the genre that I like as the playing of tunes. I don't really like the term 'traditional music', because there are tunes we all play by the likes of Charlie Lennon which aren't technically traditional and that has been the case all the way through. At some point, Cooleys reel wasn't even traditional. I then don't like calling it 'Irish music' because many reels such as Bonny Kate aren't Irish.
So, I consider myself not as a traditional or Irish music player but what I call a trad musician which I defined as someone who plays tunes, which I'd then go on to define but wont bore you here.
Then, I'm happy for Coleman and Mc Goldrick to exist in the same camp. I don't think that the genre should be sub-divided out of taste. We all have our tastes but to me what other people like is as unimportant to me as my views should be to them. Many people don't like Classical but liking or disliking it is missing the point of how good it actually is.
I think trad music is essentially neither good nor bad in absolutely any case and that its value is got from observing what it's trying to say to you as much as feeling it. I'm personally as happy listening or playing in the style of 1920's musicians as I am with the modern musicians. They all have something to say, and to that extent, I feel it important to try hear what exactly that is. Whoever or whatever they are.
Martin.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by martin t
Oh, didn't see your post there Llig, you said alot of what I was trying to!
Martin.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by martin t
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Isn't it assimilation into "world music" rather than subdivision of genres?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by slainte
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Of course music evolves, it changes, mutates whatever you want to call it.
I doubt that a 'blues' musician of the late forties would find much in common with a 'thrash metal' musician but they are part of a continuous line of development.
Am I right in thinking that it might be 'overproduced' product that you object to? For example the work of Moving Hearts?
In some respects I would agree with you but you cannot deny the musicality of such performers. I just wish it were possible to get away from such inflammatory terms as cr*p and sh*t when describing something that someone doesn't like.
If you want to sit in a bar and play a few tunes fine, if you able to produce something like McGoldrick that's fine too; labeling always leads to discontent and division and name calling. Life's too short, huh?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I'm sorta with Michael on this, of course all music has to evolve. Total respect to the earliest practitioners of the art, some of them never bettered, however, to keep the music alive and to keep the next generations interested, evolution is necessary, experimental fun and can be good/bad/indifferent/pointless depending on your stance. Remember the benchmarks and you won't go too far wrong
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Sorry Llig, I had to go away and think about it for a bit and you beat me to it! Took the words out of my mouth.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Difficult to see where you'd draw the line between evos and trads.
I think there's something in the issue, but to me it's about the increasing complexity of band arrangements, as Worzel does touch on. The Dubliners and The Bothy Band certainly wanted to be successful, but their arrangements were comparatively simple as a rule compared to some of today's. Mind, some tradophiles then disliked the clavinet, bouzouki and guitar of the Bothies, at any rate. This one's been going on for some time.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
It's an interesting topic. And it doesn't just happen with Irish music. I have read that Greek Australian musicians, returning 'home' find local people smiling and teasing them about their quaint language and music playing...because both their language and their music is like a time capsule of the late 40's and early 50's - the time when their parents or grandparents emigrated. They use antiquated swear words and slang, and as far as local musicians are concerned, play in an old fashioned and outdated style. But greek musicologists love the visiting emigrant musicians for this very reason.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
llig leahcim, I didn't make the point that McGolderick plays entirely for money/fame/recognition. I used his commercial style of music as an example of the music I was talking about. I deliberalty don't want to get into the slagging of specific individuals, which is why I favour the articulation of the differences, so they can be considered different. I have met McGolderick, he is a very nice man and one of the reasons I do want to catergorise his music as something other than trad is because of this, i.e. very nice guy but not my type of music.
I didn't say evolution means getting better, I said that in the terms of irish music, it implies it, particularly within the body of people who play 'evolutionist' irish music.
Your comment that musical taste is 'utterly irrelevant' is not one I would adhere to. In fact, I'd say it's fundamental to your own identity within the music. Certain musicians transend the normal realms of music, to the point where they become part of the tradition, rather than just performers of the tradition. Coleman, Potts, Touhey, etc. There is argument that McGolderick has done this if you consider what he plays as a different genre to the others, but I certainly don't see it as part of the same thing, or his contribution leaving much to ITM flute playing within the structure as I see it.
All opinions are valid, debate aids understanding, and I know my views are not shared by everyone. But they are my own opinions; I believe them and I would also believe they are reasonably well informed opinions. I welcome others to offer their own.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
martin t - you cheat when you post. You're not supposed to talk sense.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
WorzelGummidge... i certainly have respect for trad music. That doesn't mean i have to "play it".
:op
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by davydd
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
This is a good idea.
The label "commercial" implies that Irish music done for pay necessarily has a different style than traditional Irish music.
The Chieftans, who have been more successful than anyone at making money from playing ITM, still play it pretty straight (I'm talking the style of the playing, not the choice of repertoire).
But the point is well taken that the style heard on many commerical recordings is a very different style than the traditional style still heard at sessions.
Perhaps "Irish fusion"? "Irish new age"? No title I can think of sounds right.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
fair point davydd. I personally couldn't play 'evo' as I would find it disrespectful to the music I love. But each to his own.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Personally, I like my reels pretty straight. I even like a lot of my hornpipes pretty straight. And I hate bodrans. You could say that the music I like is of the subgenre instrumental/diddley/straight/nonbodhran. But does giving it a label help?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Without recordings though...how would you know it's evolved and changed though?
Cos isn't part of the wonderful world of ITM that it's about the aural transmission of music and that the very transmission this way keeps it changing subtlely over time and keeps it alive rather than being from some sort of musical museum ?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
What about subdivision of genres into sub-genres in ITM though - wouldn't their be a distinction between ornamented traditional and non-ornamented? Possibly at some point ornamented ITM was regarded as 'new-fangled', if not 'evo'.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
And can we subdivide these also please?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Yes Curvyfiddle, the music does change, and recorded music (both commercial and non-commercial) plays a major part in it's development. But if it changes into something so radically different as to be almost unrecognisable from the original form, does it not warrant a new label? We evolved from apes, but we are not still called apes. I don't want to turn this into a debate of definitions or Darwinism, just to make my point.
llig leahcim, your example of a subgroup based on your taste doesn't ring true to me. We share opinions in regard to bodhrans, but i'd prefer to say I hate bad bodhran players, rather than the instrument itself. There are no crap instruments, just crap musicians playing the instrument (with the possible exception of the piano accordion which I feel lacks the dynamic response associated with ITM due to the fact there is no difference between the pull and the push in tuning. Although I once played a session with Jimmy Keane and he was, I thought, the exception to this rule, so maybe I've just counter-argued my own statement!) Disliking something is no big deal, we all have tastes, if we didn't it would be a bad world. But not liking the bodhran does not create a subgenre for you to pidgeon-hole yourself in. Christ, the real purist might argue that it's all bastard music and instrumentation apart from bodhran and pipes, and we should all learn one or the other if we want to be part of the tradition, and there's way too much going on in the pipes to ever attempt learning them, so I'd be stuck with the goat!
P.S. what's the difference between a bodhran and a trampoline? You take your shoes off to jump on a trampoline.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
One of the subgenres I'm rather partial too is the subgenre "single reels in G on the flute with lots of Mat Molloy kind of bubbly bits". Though it would be uselful to subdivide this further into "single reels in G on the flute that start on a B with lots of Mat Molloy kind of bubbly bits". I'm not so sure the three part ones deserve another subsubsubgenre to the two part ones. What would happen if someone wrote another part to a two part one? That would really mess the system up.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
On reflection, I agree, Creating a subgenre through personal taste is probably not the right way to go about it. Like trying to divide it up between music that has evolved into something you like and music that has evolved into something you don't
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
my point is that your division is based on taste i.e. what you don't like. mine is based on structural differences within the music. I am deliberately trying to avoid letting my personal taste taint this, thus trying to work out a labelling system that lets me say why I like one thing and not the other, rather than just slagging.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"...thus trying to work out a labelling system that lets me say why I like one thing and not the other"
I think it would be very useful and convenient thing, if such a labelling system could be agreed upon. But that's kinda unlikely, isn't it ? The problems are obvious, re the many arguments about the 'celtic' label, which everybody agrees, has almost nothing to be said in its favour, but gets used because nobody can agree on a better label. As Churchill said of democracy, paraphrased, it's crap, but everything else is worse.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
thankyou wolfbird - ICM!!!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Ok, WorzelGummidge. So, if someone tells me how much they enjoyed Riverdance, I'll say, 'Yeah, but it's ICM. I prefer ITM'. Do you think that's got legs, as a practical solution ? I'm doubtful...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"So, if someone tells me how much they enjoyed Riverdance, I'll say, 'Yeah, but it's ICM. I prefer ITM"
The solution is not to turn round to them and say anything, but simply to bitch-slap them. Or even better, get a ring with ICM printed backwards on it, then punch them in the head.
I joke of course. But seriously, a defeatist attitude won't acheive anything. I don't even think it needs a 'label' as such, just an understnading that it in't the all the same, coleman and riverdance are not the same genre of music.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"Neanderthal" ~ for a start, but then I could see one faction putting the other under that label and the other doing the same in kind... The problem with labeling is that sometimes that is the process you go through just before pickling a thing in fermaldahyde or nailing it to a display board to slide into a museum's display drawer... It may actually be better that we have to define clearly what we mean, rather than depending on subject headings like the amoeba 'Celtic'. The other good thing about it being open ended and requiring a description rather than a throw away label is that can also generate discussion, argument ~ and ~ it leaves it so you can develop your description with the development of your own tastes and preferences ~ and the general direction a living thing takes, like music ~ constantly in flux and trying desperately to avoid the fermaldahyde or needle... Maybe that is good? ~ that you can't quite put your finger on it, that it is slippery, varied and constantly moving...not dead...alive! It keeps us on our toes, less likely to take it all for granted, which a simple system of labeling would suggest...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
~ & hopefully trying to accomplish some level of diplomacy in the act of description... Listen to me, who has often slipped on my own petard when responding against the likes of Riverdance with my forefingers crossed and held before me in the form of a cross. "Get ye back Satan!"
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Worzel ~ what's an "itty bitty waste"?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
i think traditional music CDs should come with a checklist.
like the ones you get on Coffee Cups, so you know what one has sugar, milk etc.
ie:
Guitar YES/NO
Reverb YES/NO
Singing YES/NO
Beats YES/NO
Mad Guy Shouting YES/NO
Danny Boy YES/NO
Rebel Songs That Will Annoy Your Flatmate YES/NO
and so on...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by DubChieftain
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Worzel makes some very valid points.
Aficionados of "Evolution" are inclined to simplify the music - Well, Fine, if that's what they want to do. I would argue, though, that what they play is in many instances not ITM according to any reasonable definition of same.
I dislike being told by the Evos that the music *is* simple, or should be, that technique does not matter, & that it is in some sense atavistic to seek to master the complexity.
Y'know the quote from Francis Bacon about the alchemists seeking to make gold -
Gold hath these Natures: Greatnesse of Weight; Closeness of Parts; Fixation; Pliantnesse, or softnesse; Immunitie from Rust; Colour or Tincture of Yellow. Therefore the Sure Way, (though most about,) to make Gold, is to know the Causes of the Severall Natures before rehearsed, and the Axiomes concerning the same. For if a man can make a Metall, that hath all these Properties, Let men dispute, whether it be Gold, or no?
- idem ITM. My point is that ITM has specific salient characteristics. Change them, and what you get is not ITM.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
exactly Sean Lead Liath, you play golf but replace the golf ball with a chicken it's not golf anymore, although that sounds like fun..........i'll be back in a bit.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Back, neighbouring farmer not pleased about this chicken, but did get almost 200 yards with a Big Bertha driver. Nice. ceolachan, dunno, what's an itty bitty waste?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
We could come up with all sorts of interesting acronyms and new terms to describe the spectrum .....
From Historically Accurate 19th century replica ITM through to Totally Modern but Creatively inspired by the instruments and rhythms of ITM. Now how many grades or shades lie between those two extremes?
I happen to like the whole spectrum. It's ALL better than most the junk they call music on commercial radio.......
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by TheCurvyFiddle
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
ARE YE THERE, SEAMUS ?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Kenny
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
CurvyFiddle I'd have to say I disagree with your last statement. I'd much rather listen to commercial radio and music I have no interest in then the ICM I keep referring to. To my ears it's offensive, not in the sense that the people playing it are offensive to me and I wanna physically hurt them, but that what has been done to the artform of ITM is offensive. Britney Spears, Boyzone and the rest provoke no reaction to me. I wouldn't listen to them at all if given a choice, but I'd prefer it to ICM.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Beyond the obvious contemporary vs traditional, i hear big differences in the tradtional stuff. I'm not irish, i'm 100% american - but i can tell donegal, from clare or sligo.
the problem for me is the bland melange that ends up at a lot of american sessions - the quater-note laden merry blacksmith with no vartiations, the yawn of munster, the cable-knit underwear inspired version of the butterfly that invokes fairies & granola bearing leprachuans.
Maybe you can tell i've had it to teeth with bar sessions, but there's something to be said of trying to delve into a good solo recording & trying to get it all - not only the tune, but the swing, variations, ornaments, sets etc.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Mad Baloney
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Sean Lead Liath ~ I love it...well put...
While I don't like it all, I'm glad that it is an open door and encompasses all that variety. I can only hope that the misdirected and deluded will see the light and be drawn in...
BZZZZT! CRACKLE!! FIZZZZZ!!!
I have yet to find any of my Leprechaun friends tottin' granola bars... It must be an American branch. They probably all wear kelly green, short britches, a hat, buckles on their shoes and on the hat and looking embarrassingly like one of those garden elf thingamajigs... You know, some have fishing poles.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"itty bitty waste"?
http://www.thesession.org/members/display/46546
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I don't like it too fluffy or sugary, with the neo-pop coating. The candy shell makes me sort of ill.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Yes, here the fairies and the hippies for some reason have cross-pollinated and now you have the King of the Fairies wearing Birkenstocks and eating Ben and Jerry's while he jams at the drum circle...dude.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
ceolachan - itty bitty waste is the one thing on par with Potts - as close to perfection as possible!
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I was interested in the account (curvyfiddle?) of Australian Greek musicians who'd stayed in a bit of a time-warp, playing old-fashioned music and using old-fashioned slang.
I'd casually assumed that Irish musicians, in America anyway, became more extrovert and cosmopolitan in their music and maybe other respects, and maybe some did. But it stands to reason that others didn't, and were more retiring / clung to what they already had and valued / had their hands full just getting by in the new country, let alone trying to make waves in it.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
For some people, ITM is a local tradition and style and they only play that corner of the tradition.
People with no ties to any particular locality or style may play a mix-and-match of vvarious traditions and styles. They can still do that in a traditional manner/style by the choice of tunes, the arrangements and even the setting of the session (house ,small pub or local dance rather than big festival).
I don't consider the tradition is watered down as Scottish and Northumbrian tunes seep into sessions - it always was thus. I have a little more concern regarding some of the Eastern European influences that have been there for some time - they really are from a totally different tradition with different scales, tonalities and can be a little alien to Western European ears.
Some people would insist they are from Asia rather than from countries that have recently joined the EU. (Continents seem to be redefined in political terms rather than geographically, nowadays)
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
There is no doubt that music changes ("evolves") perpetually - even in the way the same musician will play the same tune over the course of a lifetime.
All options are available to all of us - and we can choose to play - or simply listen to - as many as we want. They do not have to be mutually exclusive.
For example - I like to try and play the tune 'The Butterfly' - I probably have my own slightly quirky way of trying to play it. I am constrained by my own ability and am influenced by all the music I have heard - including those I regulalry play with.
In the case of 'The Butterfly' I have recordings by Tommy Potts, the Bothy Band, and Kevin Burke solo. They are all good. None is intrinsically the right way to play the tune - none is 'wrong' - but they are all different - and they result from a complex series of influences and experiments by those playing them. The recorded versions capture one instance of a playing of the tune - a day later the same musicians may well have recorded them differently - emphasising slightly different aspects.
We need to classify to stay sane - but classifications can always be made to break down - they are not absolute truths
One of the buggest mistakes I have made with music is to assume that I will not like particular genres and thereby to shut myself out of whole areas which I later realised I did like.
I really regret never seeing the Bothy Band play live - but I wonder if somebody had actually said to me in 1977 did I want to go and see this bunch of people palying folk music I would probably have turned it down as I was stuck in a 'dinosaur' rock pase at that point in my life.
More fool me....
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Edgar Bolton
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
The difference between being progressive and conservative about one's interpretation of music is whether one wants to enshrine and perpetuate past deeds of great masters, or whether one wants to view past practitioners as being progressive in their own right, in their own time, and carrying forward their spirit of newness that they assuredly brought to the art form. Luckily, we need both types of people, so pick the one that suits you best.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by reenactor
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Even those old timers I've known who used the term "jungle music" as a category for something they had a slight disdane for, were interested in other musics, and would have gone out of their way to listen in if given the opportunity... Some even crossed back and forth and even played sax or drum kit... This includes Donegal scrappers and Sliabh Luachra box sqeezers... I find music opens me up the more intimate I get with it.
Nice description of the function of categories Edgar ~ "- they are not absolute!" ~ if only that were true in every use. They can also contribute to standardization, sterilization, degradation, unfair judgement and exclusion...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Was it slip jigs danced on the head of that pin?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by NEW Pure Drop® Ear Canal Oil
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Here's a quote from an old post of mine that applies to this situation:
"I like to look at it as a gradient. There are people that push for "preserving tradition", and there are people that try to "push the envelope" in progressive ways. And everything in between. That's the important part - most of us fall somewhere in the middle - in the gray area of the gradient. And so the very fact that the extremes exist is what allows the "middle" to exist. The push and pull that inevitably happens on this very debate has ALWAYS been there!
As Michael said, "... if it is fluid, then it can't be pure...", but the fluidity is what makes it live and breathe. If it were pure - or "preserved", it would be dead. Something that you hang on the wall to look at."
Trying to draw lines between the different sub-genres would be impossible and useless, because it's too fluid. What's wrong with just saying "I like that, but I don't like that", instead of trying to break it up into pieces? Is it because you have some need to disown the stuff you don't like so that you're not associated with it?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Reverend I agree there are divisions and gradients within perception of most things of this nature. Reminds me of Rudolf Bultmann and Demythologisation of the New Testement - there needs to be extreme views on either side to allow for a middle ground to appear. But I feel you are missing the point I'm trying to make -
"Is it because you have some need to disown the stuff you don't like so that you're not associated with it?"
If I like it or not is not the issue. I don't, but that's not the point. The point is, if you were to examine this 'evo' stream of music, it is so far removed from ITM in terms of structure and musicality that it should warrant another name. In the same way that Jazz and Blues are two seperate genres. It exists within Classical music too; you couldn't pair Vivaldi and Stockhausen into the same pidgeon-hole.
A lot of 'purists' have issue with 'evo' irish music, as people have been calling it. I think to lump it together is actually of deprement to the tradition, and I worry that, because this commercial music is by it's nature more easily obtainable than the purist trad, people growing up into the music, without proper guidence, will believe this is the music that represents Ireland's indigenous artform.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Jeez, these threads can go all over the place! We create catagories to save time in looking for what it is we're looking for. And we refine those catagories depending on who we're talking to. The term "Irish Music" is just fine for most of the general public, and ITM is handy for those who want to play session tunes. "Pub Songs" is good for those who follow the Clancys.
Any further "pigeon holes" need to be chosen by those who play the "evolved" forms. It's not particularly helpful for an ITM musician to classify the "other" music as ICM ('commmercial" has a negative connotation in many circles), so I encourage those who play that "other" music to choose a identifier that they like, before one is chosen for them.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by BurtDaBard
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I don't actually think there's much danger of the "Pure" tradition dying. Too many kids have become too good for that to happen.
The pure stuff is never going to become mainstream in commercial markets, because the nuance that "Purist" ears hear is not really accessible to the mainstream. I'm sure we've all had the experience of people describing the music as "Monotonous" - against renditions that, to the aficionado's ear, are varied, turned, ornamented.... &c &c &c
People will draw on the tradition, and some of the stuff that results will from time to time become popular - "Commercial" if you will. The Clancy Brothers had pleasant voices. The Dubliners - with the (arguable, but let's not go there in this thread) exception of Barney McK - were not great instrumentalists. The Riverdance & Ronan Hardiman Flatley music draw on the tradition, but are not really of it.
I did comment some time ago though in another thread that I mourned the passing of real music from some Kerry pubs, to be replaced by second-rate stuff and a lot of schmaltz. But the real music is still being played in peoples' houses.
I'm not really sure that developing elaborate taxonomies serves much useful purpose.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
But WorzelGummidge, don't you think that this kind of tension has always existed?
My point was that it is something that keeps the tradition living and breathing. Trying to classify it as something else is like cutting off one of your fingers because it has developed an ugly wart. You might not like it, but it's still part of the whole that makes up "the tradition" (which is kind of a nebulous concept anyway).
So you fall toward the traditionalist end of the spectrum, and McGoldrick et al fall toward the evolutionary end of the spectrum, and that's what keeps all of us in the middle with a vibrant, wonderful music to learn and love.
As far as the more commercial aspects of it being bad for the tradition, I tend to think of it the other way around. Bands like Lúnasa are more accessible to the ear of someone who grew up listening to Rock & Roll, for instance. The first thing they notice is that it has bass, and is appealing to people because it is produced like a good rock recording. So that's like the hook on the end of the line that helps get new people interested in the tradition. I can't tell you how many times I've seen players drawn in because of music like that, but a couple years later, they're asking for Paddy Carty and Seamus Ennis recordings.
And I should be an expert, because I was one of the ones that was drawn into the tradition by some of the fringe elements like that.
(BTW, I would say that I now fall toward the traditionalist end of the spectrum too...)
And yes, there are people out there in the world that think that Riverdance was pure and traditional, etc. But those aren't people that matter when it comes to "preserving the tradition", because they're just consumers, and don't play an active roll in the whole thing...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Lovely Sean & Rev, brought a smile to me when I'm in grave need of one...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Lots of topics to discuss
BurtDaBard, you made a very valid point that the terminology of this should not be assigned by someone who is not within that aspect of the music. 'Commercial' music may, for many, have negative connotations. I understand that many of these people who play this music do it because it is there means of musical expression. It is not solely for the money. People derive enjoyment from it, and who am I to say that that is a bad thing. I'm not even suggesting that there is a 'label' put on it, as if to create a new sub catogory of Irish Music in your local HMV store. But it does appear to have spun off to such an extent that it doesn't really feel part of the same musical entity.
Irish music is important in a lot of ways. It is an indigenous music and corrilates to many other aspects, social and political, within the Irish nation. There are strong links within the music and the language; regional style of playing almost paralleling local dialects, as well as migration. The work done by organisations such as the ITMA and NPU is of benefit and importance to the nation, not just the musicians who listen and play trad. Tansey calls Irish music 'The heartbeat of a nation'. I'm inclined to agree. Sean Lead Liath makes the point
"I don't actually think there's much danger of the "Pure" tradition dying. Too many kids have become too good for that to happen."
Again, I agree. There are many truely gifted young musicians playing music today. I am very fortunate to know a few of them, and many feel very strongly about this subject as well and I firmy believe that this reiterates Tansey's point. It can not, and will not die, because it is an intrinsic part of the the Irish nation.
People mentioned earlier on in the tread that music naturally evolves. I think this is clear to see in Irish music, but not in the ways that many have put it forward on the board. Two key areas of 'evolution' within the 'purist' form of ITM are the cross pollinisation of regional styles and the envelopment of new instruments into the tradition. A lot of this is (somewhat ironically) to do with commercial Irish music. The 20s recordings of the likes of Coleman, Morrison etc. had a profound impact on how people were playing Irish music. Rather than listening to the local boys and playing like them, recordings of musicians were influencing how people play their music. Many of us are influenced by musicians that we have never heard play live, indeed had passed away before we were even born. Also these recordings brought new instruments into the tradition, to the point were piano and guitar accompniment are now considered very much part of the 'purist' scene. This is evidence of evolution, mixing in it with other genres does nothing to develop it, it only serves to strip the music down to the basic elements that work well with other genres. ITM is a dance music; not exclusively I know, but it does seem to be the aspect of the genre that is latched onto. But the development of the tune, the subtleties of tone, the choice of variations, all the things that Sean Lead Liath refers to are not reflected in this music, so how can it be the same genre?
Yes Reverend, I too came into the music through avenues that you refer to as 'fringe' elements. I think anything that acts as a gateway into the likes of Ennis and Paddy Carty can't be a bad thing. Put to say it's the SAME thing......
Nothing quite as satisfying as a mass debate ;)
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by WorzelGummidge
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
There is classification because it is fun and leads to amusing absurdities.
There is classification that is deadly serious, taken up by officialdom and lands people in the nightmare world of Catch 22, et al.
In music, best I think to stay with the former, if one has to choose.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"Jiggin The Blues" - now that's the real deal! Rick Epping, aah, fond memories, Tim Edey, phew! and of course, the bushman himself, playing brilliantly, actually. Trad-blues? where's that Steve Shaw when you need him?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I am here and I haven't a clue what you're on about.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I guess I fall decidedly in the: mostly instrumental/occasional songs as long as they are the fun singalong Clancy Brothers types/lightly swung/swing tuned/guitar-backed/Irish-American/oh yeah and some Scots tunes also tradition. (!!???!!)
Everyone everywhere should play as much music as possible. Not only will the world be a better place, but the academics will have something to categorize and keep them occupied. And I would hazard a guess that even folks that are accused to have "sold out" are actually playing what they love because they love it, and are just lucky enough to have struck a chord with the listeners.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Interesting read. I can't really add anything else other than to say it still blows me away to hear folk refer to Lunasa as a fringe element.
To me, Flogging Molly is a fringe element. Lunasa is pure drop.
Pardon me. I think I'm gonna go watch my Solas DVD now.
;-D
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Hey Chris, I always find these topics amusing because some of the folks around here seem to have beards as long as Rip Van Winkle's
The bottom line is that EVERYTHING we do as reiteration is based on interpretation. An interpretation of a "thing" is NOT, and can never be, the exact thing we are attempting to interpret. Even little teeny tiny super subtle variations marks the evolution of the thing towards something different. ITM is an interpretive, "evolving" art form just like any other. I think glomming on to the "purely traditional" aspect of the music (as fun and as challenging as it may be for some) is merely an attempt to slow the march of time--which is, unfortunately, as relentlessly destructive of human endeavor as it is of mountain ranges...
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by gw
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I was just about to explain why Lunasa isn't pure drop, but then I took the time to read this first:
"A "Plastic Paddy"? Nay, I prefer the term "Celtifornian" LOL (...) I live in Cloverdale, CA and have been listening to ITM for about 10 years now. I picked up the bodhran..."
I didn't even get past the word "bodhran".
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Dow
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
GW,
LOL, I agree. There's a few guys here who want to keep ITM the variety they have in their kitchens with 2 or 3 close friends o'er a cup 'o' tea.
I think Rip Van Winkle posted right below you.
Actually Dow, I admire to a degree, your dedication to pure drop ITM. And I really believe that the more a person can learn about the real thing the better they will be if and when they try to fuse it with other varieties of music. I love "kitchen trad". (How's that for a label?) I wish I was better at playing it on my GUITAR or my bodhran. I wish I had more exposure to it. I wish I had a teacher!
But I don't.
I do have a sense of humor. Even for bodhran jokes at the right place and time and from the right person. This time however, you're being an arse. So I'll put you on the same list as Llig and Phantom Button.
Actually, I do get what puts Lunasa on a fringe list. It's the use of a double bass and guitar. Particularly the very percussive guitar style that Donogh played. It gives them a very rock-n-roll feel. Even when the rest of the band is faithful to the tradition. I feckin' love it just the same. It ain't Riverdance nor is it... moldy.
And THAT is what makes them so great.
Have a nice evening, cheers, slainte or whatever.
Your friendly neighborhood CELTIFORNIAN.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Steve, Jiggin The Blues is the new album by Gavin, Edey & Epping, check it out.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Dow, I feel like I need to post one more time. My previous post had some emotion to it and I want to sound lucid.
We (the people of planet earth) need a few folks like you to keep the pure tradition alive. Roots count. But if you chase off beginners with nasty jokes, your tradition is gonna die a lot sooner than you think.
THINK before you slag. Have a nice evening.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Hmm, it seems I need to explain after all. Look, this has nothing to do with keeping the pure tradition alive. I like Lunasa too, but I like them for the non-traditional music they choose to play. I'm sure the band members themselves would agree that the music they play as a band is not traditional in its strictest sense. In fact, I'm pretty sure that's the whole point of the band in the first place - to play something that's not traditional. For starters they create slick arrangements with variations in the tune that are agreed upon beforehand by the melody players so that they can play exactly the same thing in unison. There's also the untraditional backing aspect of it that you mentioned. Then there's the untraditional funky harmonies they do, especially with multiple whistles, and there's the new, funky compositions with crooked bits, and the addition of Breton tunes and suchlike. Not to mention the addition of electronic effects like distortion (listen to their version of Dr. Gilbert's). It's great stuff, but it's not traditional. It's a band of traditional musicians who are good enough to get away with doing experimental stuff. Your mistake is to confuse those band arrangements with the music those musicians grew up playing and have taken to a very high level technically.
And as for the "nasty" bodhran joke.. it wasn't a joke, I was serious! I *actually* didn't get past the word bodhran, because tears of laughter were making my vision go all blurry.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Dow
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
No?
:-|
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Dow
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I ran across a word in my travels that was not meant to be a good thing, and it lies alongside another ~ nothing against California in general and its population, but here are the relative terms for consideration ~
Californication ~ I heard this with regads to gingerbread houses that go up in a weekend and are cladded with paper thin aluminium. One good wind and the skin begins to peel ~ cheap, fast and pretentious...'silly' also comes to mind...
Disneyfication ~ la-la land, saccharin, superficial, melodramatic?
More substance for categorizing?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
i think that dow's point about lunasa is very discerning. and my quarrel with the lunasas---well, the band members are not the ones, it is the lemmings & imitators----isn't the playing of what might be termed "nontraditional traditionally-inspired styles," it is the mentality, and this mentality is rampant, that the nontraditional-traditional is somehow superior and the "pure drop" is obsolete and discardable. more power to, and fair play to, those who start out traditional and then want to branch out into fusion and experiment. but the concomitant de-valuing and denigration of "pure drop" styles is unsophisticated and provincial. the flame of high-quality, purely traditional playing will still be burning when the dross of the experimental stuff (and 95% of it is completely forgettable at best, and awful at worst) has been forgotten. both forms of creative artistry----creating by experimenting or fusing or extending or morphing, versus creating within established forms, are co-equal in value.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by ceemonster
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Slainte's point about ITM becoming world music resonates with
me, especially since I heard Paddy Glackin say the same thing
in an RTE interview. Some people say they play Tunes rather
than having to say they play
Irish-Scottish-Breton-Shetland-New England music
However I have not yet heard an Indian or Japanese tune
in a session (as far as I know)
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by mhuppert
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Oh, I left out Northumbrian-English-French Canadian
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by mhuppert
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Hey Chris,
Regarding Dow, Llig and Phantom Button...
I don't know how long you've been hanging here on the mustard board, but these guys are an OK lot. Irascible at times (Dow and Llig most of the time), but they are a wealth of info--if you can filter the delivery. The guitar and bodhran slagging is simply part of the hazing these ITM officianados inflict on those of us they consider "outsiders" of the "true" tradition. It's all a bunch of hot air and they know it--because I'm more than sure there's a guitarist and a bodhran player (or two) in their inner circles who they share session time and pints with week after week.
Remember a while back when Llig mentioned he had the chance to play a few tunes with John Doyle? He actually sounded quite giddy--not to mention complimentary! Dow interpreted an odd version of Morning Star for me that has since worked its way into our regular set (I doubt he would like what we do with it--but maybe he would since we don't promote ourselves as ITM. Phantom is a local (so you got to give him slack
)and has played (and recorded) with some great guitar players--including Junji Shirota. (A couple of years ago Mags and I caught a show at the Black Rose in Santa Rosa with Junji, Paddy Keenan and Frankie Gavin! Great players and a very entertaining evening.)
Anyway, as KML once told me, don't take the slagging too seriously. He was right. Just learn from these ITM freaks and slap them back when the get their head too far up their own arse
The ones to beware of are the academic proselytizers who bleed the passion out of young(er) musicians because they were never as good as they thought they should be. Ever done college level music training? If so I rest my case.
BTW, which Solas DVD were you watching? I watched the "Solas Live" and thought it was OK. Nothing to write home about--though JD was brilliant as usual. (Solas... Oh, I can hear the grumbling Rip Vans now... )
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by gw
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I've been to Phantoms website. Good music.
"proselytizers" I had to look that one up. lol
Good description!
Anyway, I was watching the Reunion DVD. They managed to get all the members who've ever played in the band, to reunite for this one concert.
Here's a clip from the DVD
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xD_3CnaeCoM
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
"'proselytizers'"I had to look that one up. lol..."
I think I was a bit ambiguous in the wording. What I meant to say was:
"The ones to beware of are the academic proselytizers who ATTEMPT TO bleed the passion out of LESS EXPERIENCED musicians IN "THEIR" GENRE because they THEMSELVES were never as good OR FAMOUS as they thought they should be."
I had heard that the Reunion DVD was better than the earlier live release. I'll check it out...
You coming out to the Boonville Beer Fest on Saturday?? We're playing a couple of long sets from 3:00 - 6:00 PM. Should be a fun time.
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by gw
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
I'm sick of people trying to divide irish traditional music into genres because it is a genre in itself.
Right a couple of points here:
1: Talking about how tunes like 'Lucy Campbells' or a charlie lennon tune for instance 'Kilty Town' and saying that we can't call it irish music because these tunes aren't originally irish or have not been around long enough is ridiculous!
It is the same as saying that if you compose a ragtime tune now for instance that it is not ragtime because it was not composed around the time it was at its most popular. This is despite it having all the characteristics of the genre and fitting in perfectly. To me I would class it as ragtime, not something else.
You might as well say, oh its not irish traditional music because the fiddle isn't irish, or the flute, or the banjo, or whatever, the whoel idea of that is just nitpicking. If the tune or instrument fits the genre and sounds like a traditional irish tune then thats what it is. Lucy campbells has been played for so long that it is now part of the repertoire, you could say that because donegal music is made up by a lot of highlands or whatever that it should not be called traditional irisi music. Its the same thing. The Golden Eagle hornpipe was originally an american tune before it was changed to a hornpipe, and now i would class that as traditional because of the sound its given. John Carty made a good point about tunes when he described John McEvoy 'Kilglas Lakes' sounding like 'its been around for ages'. That is how i would class tunes.
2. Secondly the tunes that mcgoldrick, mayock and that crowd compose i would not class as traditional. I would class mcgoldrick as Celtic Music not irish traditional music because of the tunes and the style he plays. Celtic music is completely seperate from scottish and irish music it is a completely new genre in itself.
3. What is acceptable in irish music and what is termed irish changes over time and people have to realise that. Frankie Gavin and Alec Finn was the first recording to have a new different type of accompaniment. It is an absolute classic cd. I would term that Irish music even though it may not have been at the time. The bouzouki didnt comlpetely change the music it added to it, and that is how to differenciate what is termed irish traditional music.
If something adds to the music without completely changing it then I would call it irish traditional music. A traditional tune can still be played in a non traditional way for instance changing rythms and the like and that would start to delve into fusion music which is again completely seperate.
Musical arrangement also don't change the term traditional music. Adding something like harmonies and stuff like that is adding something that is generally used in all types of music and would not change the term. It adds something new but at the core it is still traditional. But of course this would have to be done in a tasteful way otherwise it becomes Celtic Music which is basically an exaggerrated form of scottish and irish music but with its own unique characteristics.
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by fiddleruairi
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
So you think it's ok to keep Irish and Scottish music separate, but not ok to subdivide Irish music? Hmmm...
# Posted on May 16th 2008 by Dow
Re: Subdivision of genres within Traditional Irish Music
Yes. Its sounds though that you would class scottish and irish music together. They sound like they are singing the same tune but really they are singing from different hymn sheets.
If we start dividing a genre into genres then we get to the point where people who want to be classed in this are not able to do this but people in this group are allowed some leeway. It doesn't make sense. There has to be some room for experimentation, but over use of these leads to the classification of celtic music. My argument is about the use of the term irish traditional music. You cant really class people in groups because everyone is different. There are cases, like celtic music, where there are notable differences as is the case with irish and scottish music. Of course there is some overspill but they are very different for the rythms they use, the tunes, the ornamentation and so on.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by fiddleruairi