Arising out of a recent thread http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17654 there is the more general question of how easy is it to "lose" a "classical" sound or style of playing and replace it with something that is more authentic ITM - however one cares to define it. And how is a player to go about achieving this?
So, I'm classically trained - I've been playing the violin for more than 30 years. About 4 years ago I decided to follow my passion and start playing fiddle. It's been a bit of a hard road, and I've been working pretty hard at it.
I currently live about an hour south of Boston, and I've taken several workshops from local fiddler Hanneke Cassel (one of my fiddle heroes). Since I've had several workshops with her over a couple years, she's been able to hear my progression. She's very good about pointing out when I sound classical, and how to alter my technique to sound more like a fiddle player. I was very proud when I played a tune for her recently and she said "Wow, that didn't sound classical at all!"
I've posted about this topic before (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16155) - it's probably the only fiddle topic I have any expertise in! I think the biggest differences between violin and fiddle are rhythm and articulation.
Violinists have very precise articulation. There's the tiniest bit of space between notes, even if they are slurred. Sometimes there's a lot of space between the notes. Fiddle music doesn't really have this (yes, yes, I know it does sometimes, but it's totally different from the type of articulation a classical violinist has). This was probably the hardest thing for me to unlearn.
The second hardest thing for me to learn/unlearn was rhythm, especially the emphasis on offbeats. The bowings that I use now were totally counterintuitive a couple years ago.
On the other hand, I think my classical technique has helped me a lot in some areas, especially in the area of bow control (lift, slap, etc.).
I've also driven my husband totally nuts listening to celtic fiddle music. A lot of celtic fiddle music.
You should probably be aware that the Scots/Cape Breton tradition, of which I believe Hanneke Cassel is a part, is heavily influenced by Scott-Skinner and classical technique anyway. You'll probably find a good deal of similarity there as is.
What I am more concerned about is the idea that precise articulation is there "sometimes". It's ALL about articulation. Ornamentation is about articulation, bowing is about articulation, altered intonation is about articulation; phrasing and rhythm are so tied together it's painful to suggest that one or the other is only occasionally present. That may be a big problem in your playing!
The point I'm trying to make, DTM, is that it's DIFFERENT. It's what makes classical players sound classical. If you've been playing classical music for 30 years, and you sit down in a session (Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, whatever, I've played in all three types of sessions) you will sound classical. The articulation is totally different. (trust me on this one, I've been there).
And Cape Breton players sound nothing like NE Scottish players, even if they both play Scott Skinner tunes. And neither of them sound like a classical violinist.
This is more like it. The same is true of wind players, and even piano accordion players ~ any player that comes from a basically 'classical' background, as can be said for guitarists, mandolinists, etc... There are, as fiddlebliss says, benefits to be had too, but there is a lot of work to get past the preconceptions that are drummed into someone through training, to get them to even abandon these hard held rules, and to move into the realm of another tradition ~ Irish, Cape Breton, Hungarian, Klezmer, Jazz ~ whatever... They all have their own accents ~ national, regional, local, individual...
The worst I've had to deal with is the incomplete, where someone has had the classical training but never moved beyond the rules to become a soloist. A soloist has to have a certain openness to new ideas. I'd have to agree that the main problem I've heard and worked to change was with regards to articulation and rhythm. For ears trained otherwise, the classical way can sound very robotic, an uncomfortable constant. With wind players it is tonguing every damn note...like James Galway does when he does his whistle party pieces. For me it just sounds stilted, awful, as does the overuse of vibrato by the 'classically' trained...
How do you lost this ~ fiddlebliss has the answer ~ in the past and present posts ~ you go out and you use your ears and you tie up with someone respected in this music, someone whose sound and way with the music you like ~ and you apprentice, you take every opportunity to extend yourself, to learn...and to unlearn, the latter usually being the hardest, to give up hard practiced techniques, too often also taken for granted, never questioned...
I don't have a classical sound to lose, have been learning from an Irish teacher from the beginning, but I listen to classical music enough that I think it creeps into my playing every once in a while...
There is one technique that I almost learned the wrong way---it's that pedal-note string crossing bit that occurs in so many tunes, "E2BE dEBE", "D2AD BDAD", etc. There is a specific way to play these to get the right sound. Originally I had been playing each note consecutively---all in the right rhythm, but each note on its own. Apparently this is more the Baroque way of playing. The better way is to play them almost as double-stops---keep the bow on the pedal note (E and D respectively in the above examples) while playing the notes around it. It's possible (and sounds nice) to play these all on the same bow. Kind of hard to explain, and takes some getting used to, but worth the effort. Frankie Gavin does nice examples of these.
There are lots of traditional fiddlers with classical backgrounds or experience, ceolachan. Means absolutely nothing in terms of predicting their abilities to play traditional style.
Yes, yes kennedy! That's it exactly. That's one of the things that was a total breakthrough for me. Like with Drowsy Maggie. I used to play it very separately (nice articulation and all), but now I kind of rock my bow from the E to the B, E to the c, etc. (and put a little oomph on the B,c,B etc.), and it sounds like a totally different tune.
Although I've always been, and still am, a classical cellist, I've only been playing the fiddle for 7 years, and that in an Irish music environment. I suspect that my fiddle playing is sounding more Irish than classical, but I'm open to correction on that point.
Last week in a session I played on my own Michael Turner's Waltz (tune #7077) which is actually a bit of genuine Mozart - see the comments in #7077 for details. While I was playing, it occurred to me that if I played like that (style-wise) in my chamber orchestra I'd get some funny looks and comments, so the style I was playing in that session evidently wasn't Mozartian, whatever it was! Perhaps I am indeed starting to wear two hats.
A few months ago, in order to improve my overall technique I started taking lessons from a professional Suzuki teacher who teaches classical, folk, jazz and improvisation, and is also the fiddle lead in a long-standing folk band. With that background I think there is little danger I'm going to be forced into an exclusively classical style.
I've been listening to classical music for most of my life, and Irish music for the past few years. It's been one month since I started playing the fiddle, and I have no classical training in music of any kind (just lots of listening experience).
Could someone explain the differences in technique you're talking about? The primary difference I hear is in the music itself, and as a beginning fiddler I have a hard time labeling the nuances in playing style. I guess it might help to hear a classical piece played with a "fiddle" style, and a traditional tune played with a "classical" style. It's just hard for me to visualize, or whatever the auditory equivalent would be.
As you see, violinists use a lot of vibrato, and tend not to slur across strings (I think--my classical exposure was quite limited, so I could be wrong about that) which makes a tune like Drowsy Maggie sound stilted.
Here's another example; note the contrast in bowing style (pause the clip until it finishes downloading, to get smoother motion): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8JW_JXiFv8
Doesn't the guy in the monkey suit look like he is working too hard?
That's not the whole violin vs. fiddle story, but it's a start.
Mickray, in your first example the most obvious things are that the rolls are too drawn out and the timing isn't even spot on by classical standards. Then of course the dance "lift" is missing.
Apologies for my part in that other thread and especially to anyone still pondering what a classical accent on a bodhran might sound like. Sigh. It's been a wild weekend out here on Brokeback Mountain (a.k.a Cody, WY)
Seriously, haven't seen anyone mention this simple thing for fiddle:
What I hear is that most of a classical "accent" comes from a strong initial attack of the note and then not varying your bow speed (swelling/decaying). And mostly just that. I.E. Exactly what you're supposed to do in classical style and get yelled at by your teacher if you don't.
The classically trained folks I know would get the most mileage out of looking at the swell-by-bowspeed thing first and foremost. If your classical teacher starts giving you grief about a inconstant bowspeed then you might be on the right track.
Got that, Will?
<snort>
(for the record, Will is a wonderful trad fiddler w/ a great sense of style, wit and especially humor, but no classical accent)
dlewicki, I am not so sure, about not varying bow speed in Irish fiddle. Martin Hayes certainly does, a lot. That may be just his style, and not "really traditional"--but I don't think I would have the guts to tell him he's doing it all wrong!
I grew up playing classical violin, and over the past 6 or so years I've transitioned to ITM... and the one change in particular that I've noticed is that I now tend to change bow direction based on string crossings as opposed to the notes themselves. In classical music you are usually 'supposed' to bow based on written patterns that often mean a bow change every 2 or 4 notes (or some other pattern that might be unique to the piece itself but is nonetheless standardized within the piece)... but I now notice that I just slur almost everything on one string and change bow direction when I cross strings.
Also, in ITM you can sit in your chair however you want. You don't have to sit up perfectly straight like you have a broomstick up your @&$.
Lots of interesting subtleties mentioned above but to state the obvious, for fiddlers it's that right arm, innit? Big swinging right arm movements tell most of the story a mile away.
Do wrist and elbow move up and down together most of the time, or are they often moving in opposite directions? Stiff wrist or flexible? Etc.
Wounded hussar, I'd say that's the best advice so far, listening to and absorbing the style of Paddy Canny or other good traditional players will be more helpful than anything else.
As a flute player, it is quite irritating when fiddlers (or Banjo players etc.) play the pedal pointed bits double stopped. Completely buggers up my rhythm. Especially if they are a.playing faster than I'm comfortable with and b. don't do it every time. I find the pedal pointed bit is not just a two voice harmony but each note pair has its' own shape with the weaker articulating the stronger - this is all gone if a multi stringed instrument just double stops.
Double stopping has its place, but I don't think the start of Drowsy Maggie is it. Note that a blurred crossing between the two strings is completely different to a double stop and that I do like. Nothing irritates me more than the piano accoridon player who plays this sequence as two finger chords in crotchet tempo.
(Just my opinion and I'm not very good, so don't pay attention to anything I say...)
And an awful lot of the classical flute teaching i have had has spent time concentrating on the shape (dynamics/tone colour) of individual notes and groups of notes, i.e. for a fiddle that would be "inconstant bow speed" i.e something the player can should use even in classical music. But it should be under control, not just because the player isn't paying attention to what their bow is doing.
Listen to lots of good stuff and try to play like that... If you aren't sure then record yourself and try to work out where the differences are.
Fiddlebliss is clearly describing, for Irish fiddle, the same thing I've encountered over the years teaching Irish flute workshops.
Because "classical" flute players bring a lot more to the table than the "good intonation, solid rythm, and warm full tone" that Greg mentions.
They bring an approach to articulation which is utterly at odds with how Irish fluteplaying traditionally sounds.
They bring a way of moving their fingers (made necessary by the fact that their fingers are resting on the keys of the Boehm flute) which is too slow to execute Irish cuts and pats.
They bring a tone (admittedly "warm and full") which is different than the usual tone heard among Irish players.
They bring vibrato. Lots of vibrato. They sometimes have immense difficulty in NOT playing vibrato.
As someone pointed out above, the better the "classical" flutist, the more easily they can alter their style.
Some are never able to sound convincingly Irish, a few are.
I wonder what classical flute players sounded like pre 1850s when they all played the same flutes us diddlers now play? But then the violins them and us play are the same instrument?
Lots already covered here, here's some fiddle-specific ones (and a couple random ones thrown in)
in general, less bow
softer - you don't need to push sound over other instruments. careful whilst playing in session.
don't speed up the bow on main beats (I see this all the time and it messes up people's rhythm esp. on jigs)
put yourself in the presence of people who understand the music (general comment)
record yourself from time to time (general, too)
Listen to the ornaments of other instruments, and try to duplicate them. If you understand how wind players *have* to do rolls and cuts, your own attempts will improve. And you'll probably learn how to do a cran on open D, which is relatively useless but amusing.
Understand that a large number of people with contradictory viewpoints will tell you things to do constantly in your first five years of playing.These statements will often come into conflict. sometimes, these are useful suggestions, and sometimes, you simply learn more about the perspective of the advisor. When you can sort these out you'll learn three things: first, the useful information; second, what ticks people off; and third, you'll eventually learn that there are often more than half a dozen (or a hundred, if you like) equally valid solutions to bowing and ornaments, valid names for tunes, valid sets of notes within tunes, and that these all vary between regional style and player. If you can simultaneously hold that third idea in your head and respect the work of the old masters, you'll be able to become a knowledgeable practicioner without falling into the trap of dogma.
crackpot, why would double-stopped pedal notes throw off your rhythm? I'm not saying it shouldn't, I'm just curious. Are the fiddlers/banjo players in question playing with solid rhythm themselves?
I should note that I originally said "almost" double-stopped, because if it's done right, both notes don't get equal pressure/emphasis all the way through---the notes of the melody are heard most clearly, but the bow doesn't leave either string, which is meant to add texture to the sound. It's kind of hard to explain in written words. I don't know if most/many players do this, I just remember that I learned it as something that isdifferent from the classical way of doing things.
After you have learned a tune, throw the dots away and don't play what is written - play what comes to you.
Listen to as many different trad players as you can so you learn to recognise styles and even individual players.
Develop your own style - don't just copy one persons.
Never stop learning.
Give something back - Help and encourage as many beginners as you can to take up instruments and to carry on playing, and pass on some of your musical training to them.
...and, in all fairness, I had a classical teacher once castigate me for not listening to classical music, which was the best thing he could have done for me. "How can you play what you're not listening to?" Conversley, how can you play music you don't want to listen to? Logically, how can you possible play "Irish" if you aren't constantly listening to it? The analogy of music as language is key here, immersion in the language/music is the best way to learn.
So ultimately, if you're seeking to lose a sound and adopt another one, you should be constantly listening to the sound you are trying to adopt. How can you learn Spanish without constantly listening to people speak it, for example?
Get down and dirty... As the Cape Bretoners say, and they have the classical influence, it has to have 'dirt' in it... It is using those rough things that classical music tries so hard to eliminate, the barks and scrapes and shudders and off coloured tones and microtones and ~ using them with affect, to drive the music and define the rhythm and dance in it ~ a squack here, a bark there, a gravel slide at just the right point...to value the full spectrum of possibilities of the instrument, not just the pure tone but all the possibilities this music can take advantage of because its not in a straight jacket. But this is an each-to-his own thing. Some folks do it a lot and obviously, some are more subtle with their use of the rough with the smooth... That contrast, whether in the voice of a singer or in the bow of a fiddler ~ is to me sheer heaven. I love it passionately. I can enjoy a beautifully clean player, though I hate vibrato, but my preferences are for the variety this music allows and nurtures...including the earthy, dirty bits...
As a classically trained violinist, i've been playing trad for about 15-ish years. I have resigned myself to the fact that i'll always sound a little bit classical, its a lifelong affliction.
But here's an interesting point.. i remember playing in a classical competition as a teenager and after i came off stage a guy i'd never met asked me 'you play traditional don't you?'
So do classical players that play ITM betray a slight trad style while they're playing classical?
Pride, a problem we will all faced at one time or another, may be one of the main blocks in the way of progress here. When you consider how much is sacraficed to become a decent classical musician, all that time and effort, once you've accomplished some level of competence you are only naturally going to feel some pride in the results of all that work and effort. To then be faced with the idea of losing it, or setting some of that aside ~ that's got to hurt. I feel for you, all that struggle to accomplish something and then your told it doesn't quite work in another realm of your instrument's influence... The other problem would be that you work so hard for something to become second nature that you forget exactly what it is, you take it for granted, you're blinkered to its interference with regards to learning a different genre, acquiring that accent. I mean, you've always been told that 'this' is the right way, no other, no questions... Worse if someone is so bold to tell you to your face that all this hard won skill is, in this situation, crap! ~ or something along that line, softly delivered or cruelly.
I understand when it seems almost like a religion, classical musicians who are convinced they are right, they have all the answers, they are the chosen ones practicing the true way. Yes, I've come across those too. Even if you are aware there is a difference, something else, like this music, you may still have a block inside fed by the endless repetition of what's right that was drummed in to you while you studied the classical way diligently. It is kind of brain washing, and some teachers are very adept at practicing it...
Maybe it is like trying to give up smoking? It is at least a habit after as much practice as it requires. Undoing it must be at least as hard as giving up ciggies, maybe worse, as what needs to be relaxed and set aside may be too deep set to see and deal with, being taken for granted, even forgotten...
I suspect the best teacher to help someone move forward would be someone who understands that struggle and knows the differences, someone who has been through it themselves?
Ceolachan, that's such an awesome straw man argument. What's really great about it is that it's just nebulous enough to make most people doubt there ears, but goes on long enough to have a whiff of legitimacy. I'm truly impressed.
jfiddlerh, I once had an orchestra stand partner who was also a bluegrass fiddler. He drove me nuts. Always putting accents in the wrong places, playing too loudly in quiet sections, and generally lacking the delicacy needed to play, say, Mozart.
This was before I took up fiddle myself, so I had no sympathy.
I quit playing in orchestras a couple years ago. My pea brain finds it too hard to switch back and forth between styles like that, and I decided I'd rather focus on the fiddle music.
The 'how' of it is sort of interesting, but just btw, three of my favorite fiddlers to play with have classical backgrounds, as do
two of my three favorite flutists.
Of all those, I hear the 'classical' formality from only one of 'em, and that very rarely.
Now that I start to count 'em, a whole bunch of players around the Ohio River Valley have classical training. I don't think anyone would know without finding out in conversation...
Yes reenactor, I was pouring over that one while collecting wild garlic... I suspect that those that are drawn to it, by passion and appreciation, are in that very act stepping past any negating pride & practice that might stand in the way of their accomplishing an understanding and ability with this music... Love conquers all, eh?
No, love does not conquer all when learning music. However, if you'd actually like to help someone, it may behoove you to point out specifics rather than making a grand vague argument about why something is impossible (or nearly so, please don't quibble on degree here), and how if you're doing it wrong you won't know that you're doing it wrong.
I live in an area that’s heavily infested with bluegrass and old-time players ( ) and lately I’ve been noticing a gentleman playing with an eclectic bluegrass band, whom the local newspaper referred to as a “master fiddler.” He plays bluegrass, “old standards” and novelty numbers but, after the first dozen notes I heard, it was perfectly obvious that he is a classically trained violinist. He just doesn’t have a grasp of groove or swing. He gets all the notes in, but his rhythm is just approximate and there’s no pulse to it. That’s pretty much the antithesis of any traditional dance-based music.
It occurs to me that I could probably have watched a silent video of this guy playing with a bluegrass band and still detected that he was a violinist. I wouldn’t even have to watch his arm move and count beats. It was just so obvious that he was working hard to get all the notes properly played before the tune was over.
I think it’s that sense of a solid, danceable rhythmic framework that tends to be foreign to a classically trained player. Playing with classical rubato tends to rub out that sense of groove. It also interferes with developing a solid sense of syncopation.
I’m reminded of an old friend who teaches and calls dances. Once, he found himself without a band and with a group of folks ready to learn a dance. He quickly rounded up a scrub board and thimble and proceeded to scratch out a solid, swinging rhythm while he called the dance. Everybody seemed to enjoy it.
"After you have learned a tune, throw the dots away and don't play what is written"
"After"? Sorry. Don't get that. How about just playing the tune?
Meanwhile ... How not to sound classical? Well, for a start, the one thing classical fiddlers do, which drives me round the twist, is they play with this full bow action, but much worse - they sort of lift their shoulder as they play and then have this exaggerated bending action on their wrist when they get to the frog, which, sadly, they do quite a lot. I don't really understand why they do this, as it is normally something done by fairly poor classical players, presumably in imitation of the natural action, which is a bit similar but not so exaggerated.
All of which reminds me of a comment made by me ole pal, Peter Kennedy, a fine fiddler himself, Lord rest him, when talking about someone who happens to think they're pretty special hereabouts: "I first met him when he was giving a workshop in 'traditional fiddle playing' which, as far as I could see, consisted of playing classical fiddle ... badly".
Anyone local who knows what they're talking about may well be able to guess to whom Peter was referring.
reenactor, we will just have to disagree. I believe that having an appreciation and passion for this music is a great start ~ and having a willingness to question and an openness to learn. Sorry if that is too sweeping and vague for you. The obvious is always repeated ~ listen, listen again, seek out those who have what you aspire to and learn from them. Trying to get too specific in a thread like this can be a bit silly at times. It will always require the ears...
Anyone who aspires has my blessings, and if I can help direct, one-to-one ~ I do and am... I also have experience helping others to get past what can be disabilities, like being entrenched in a different tradition ~ 'clasasical' or otherwise... I do my best to put my waffle into practice ~ regularly, including on this site... If you don't like what I waffle on about ~ skip over it. See if you can offer something more useful. I look forward to that...
There are loads of ideas by informed sources on this site with regards to technique, but it will always come down to the ears.
For example, here's some fresh useful guidance, including nofrets' short and sweet account of a workshop with James Kelly, someone who has a lovely way with this music, great understanding, and an excellent teacher...
To expand the discussion a bit, how does one lose that American jazz swing and phrasing that comes from years of big band trumpet playing? And how much of that background do you want to lose? Can you bring some of those other influences into ITM without 'betraying' the tradition?
reenactor, skip over this ~ more flights of fancy ~
With Opera, one of the bastions of music considered 'classical', the focus seems to be on technique, on tone, on the voice as a musical instrument, on the performance ~ rather than on the content, the words and their clarity and meaning. What I've consistently found missing in the classical interpretations of traditional music, amongst other things, is the 'dance'. Even with classical interpretations of classical pieces tagged as 'dance' ~ polka, waltz, mazurka, troika ~ they have mostly tended to be somewhat flat, lacking, lifeless in this regard, as to what defines and gives the lift and drive that is 'dance' ~ at least to my ears and feet. Like the Opera singer, the focus is other than where tradition would have it, choosing technique, the instrument, the musician and the performance over the tune, rhythm and the dance in it. This lack of understanding and redirection of expression is not limited to a 'classical' background. Nor is the 'dance' necessarily absent just because one's primary musical upbringing is 'classical'. Bad, lifeless and danceless interpretations of music are not limited to one source, cause or genre.
Articulation, pulse, phrase ~ the breath that drives this music ~ the bow with the fiddle ~ the breath and tongue with winds ~ that edge that makes your feet want to answer it with a tap, a step, is often lost in the obsession with purity of tone and perfection of technique. Traditional music is physical, it is dance music in the main, while 'classical' tends to want to focus more on the intellectual, often losing definition in that obsession with forms, technique and the performance... Instead of being moved physically, your feet remain still and you might move forward to listen more intently to what is being done, rather than wanting to participate in it physically, as through dance or the tapping of your foot...
Al, yes, I think you can find skill developed elsewhere, in another genre, that can benefit you learning and exercising this one. It you have a passion for both, and experience with both, that experience and your ears will tell you where there's possible agreement. You don't want to 'lose' what you've worked hard to gain, it shouldn't be a matter of giving up hard won skill ~ but listening and hearing the differences and the agreements ~ distinguishing one from the other. Others have compared it to learning a language. You still need and use the same basic tools, and you benefit from already having a language to start with ~ then you practice that new language, and eventually you work on making it clearer by introducing sounds and inflection, accent, native to it. There may still be some residue of your native tongue, more than likely, but that is part of the charm that will mark out your use of it as unique. Taking on the colloquial and a more defined accent comes with exercising that language with natives. In the case of music, other musicians... Again, it's all with the ears, and the passion that motivates you to want to make the effort in the first place. The tools you've learned to understand and use in one form can help you in another, including your ears...
I need all your sympathy and support. Tonight I lost my classical sound, my baroque touch, my romantic taste, my rococo smell, and my post-modern look. I think I put them on my desk, but now I can't find them anywhere. They are insured for their cost, but not their replacement value. If anyone sees them for sale on e-bay, please let me know. (By the way, I'm also missing my keys. They were on a ring. In addition to the major ones in D and G, I can't find the ones to my E, A, and G door, Ian, and there may be a few others mixed in, Lydia.)
Mickray, thanks for those examples, they were pretty clear.
When it comes to slurring across the strings, I've already got that one down! I don't even mean to do it, I just assumed I was being sloppy. So I guess I don't have to worry about "fixing" that. Along with many other habits I'll probably be thankful that I started out in this genre, as I don't see myself having any opportunities to play classical music in the future, but there will always be a pub with sessions wherever I end up.
I think I can see a few of the other differences people are talking about, but in reverse. Every other day or so I'll play a tiny bit of Mozart or Boccherini for fun, and I can tell I'm missing something important from the sound. There are clearly a lot of techniques required to make those pieces sound right that I'm just not working on. You guys clearly don't like traditional music played with classical interpretation - I guarantee you my trad interpretation of Mozart is scheisse. And not just because I'm a rank novice, either... stop laughing.
Al, the NYC / Sligo fiddlers were influenced by jazz and the
ones "back home" would have been too. And you can hear a
bluegrass, rock and old timey influence too. Ireland didn't spend
the last 85 years in a glass jar
Gary, get ahold of yourself, just so long as you haven't lost your Mona Lisa smile...
My greatest interest and appreciation is for the influence of 'dance', probably already clear. I just put on an old recording of a scraper who hasn't what classical musicians might call a 'good technique'. Having spent some time with him, his hold is odd, and as you might expect, he never moved out of first position. In this cas he only had three strings and they were old and there was rosin everywhere. His tone was crap, by modern standards ~ but listening to the like I can't keep my feet still, or my heart. He cuts and scrapes in a way that lifts my feet off the ground and sets them back down in time to his sawing. It also makes me smile.
I also appreciate things 'classical' and was recently listening to violinist Giuliano Camignola, lovely stuff, beautiful, but it don't make me want to dance... I enjoy it. I don't mind being an appreciative audience, but I particularly like to be moved to move by music, especially when it is supposed to be 'dance music'... I know you can have the benefits of classical training, good tone and technique, and also be able to excite feet and the heart ~ there are loads of examples in this music of those that can and do. There are also plenty of examples, whatever the influence, of those that can play a tune but can't dance it with their instrument. It's hard to explain, but I've even heard both ways by the same player, Sean Keane, the difference between his performance mode, up on stage, and when he's taking his ease in Clare with some old fiddling mates and dancers before him. I suspect that he dances helps him find that in his bow and fingers...
So, not just listening, it undoubtedly helps to get physical ~ to get into the dance so you can understand the subtleties and the obvious of that accent on this music...
Sean Keane ~ a clarity check ~ "I suspect that he dances helps him find that in his bow and fingers..." ~ was meant to mean ~ He dances, and I know that helps him to find and define and lift the 'dance' with his bow and fingers...
I confess to not reading all of this thread, but I think there are some great trad fiddlers who've also had classical training. As far as I can see, they don't try to "lose" the classical sound. You can still hear it in their playing - it's just part of their style, as much as the air they breathe and teh part of the world they come from.
Willie Hunter, for example. http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6_5hSUs11Jo
How do you "lose" a classical sound?
How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Arising out of a recent thread http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17654 there is the more general question of how easy is it to "lose" a "classical" sound or style of playing and replace it with something that is more authentic ITM - however one cares to define it. And how is a player to go about achieving this?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
it really seems like one has to ask, alongside, "how evolutionary you expect this music to go?"
do you want to be "authentic", an interpreter, like a re-enactor, or are you playing the music in the way the befits your style?
...so to speak...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
If having a classical sound means good intonation, solid rhythm, and a warm and full tone, as it does to me, then why would you want to lose that?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
So, I'm classically trained - I've been playing the violin for more than 30 years. About 4 years ago I decided to follow my passion and start playing fiddle. It's been a bit of a hard road, and I've been working pretty hard at it.
I currently live about an hour south of Boston, and I've taken several workshops from local fiddler Hanneke Cassel (one of my fiddle heroes). Since I've had several workshops with her over a couple years, she's been able to hear my progression. She's very good about pointing out when I sound classical, and how to alter my technique to sound more like a fiddle player. I was very proud when I played a tune for her recently and she said "Wow, that didn't sound classical at all!"
I've posted about this topic before (http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16155) - it's probably the only fiddle topic I have any expertise in! I think the biggest differences between violin and fiddle are rhythm and articulation.
Violinists have very precise articulation. There's the tiniest bit of space between notes, even if they are slurred. Sometimes there's a lot of space between the notes. Fiddle music doesn't really have this (yes, yes, I know it does sometimes, but it's totally different from the type of articulation a classical violinist has). This was probably the hardest thing for me to unlearn.
The second hardest thing for me to learn/unlearn was rhythm, especially the emphasis on offbeats. The bowings that I use now were totally counterintuitive a couple years ago.
On the other hand, I think my classical technique has helped me a lot in some areas, especially in the area of bow control (lift, slap, etc.).
I've also driven my husband totally nuts listening to celtic fiddle music. A lot of celtic fiddle music.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by fiddlebliss
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
You should probably be aware that the Scots/Cape Breton tradition, of which I believe Hanneke Cassel is a part, is heavily influenced by Scott-Skinner and classical technique anyway. You'll probably find a good deal of similarity there as is.
What I am more concerned about is the idea that precise articulation is there "sometimes". It's ALL about articulation. Ornamentation is about articulation, bowing is about articulation, altered intonation is about articulation; phrasing and rhythm are so tied together it's painful to suggest that one or the other is only occasionally present. That may be a big problem in your playing!
--DtM
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
The point I'm trying to make, DTM, is that it's DIFFERENT. It's what makes classical players sound classical. If you've been playing classical music for 30 years, and you sit down in a session (Irish, Scottish, Cape Breton, whatever, I've played in all three types of sessions) you will sound classical. The articulation is totally different. (trust me on this one, I've been there).
And Cape Breton players sound nothing like NE Scottish players, even if they both play Scott Skinner tunes. And neither of them sound like a classical violinist.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by fiddlebliss
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
P.S. Hey Sunnybear! Linda here. We used to play in sessions together at Norah's in Winston-Salem a couple years ago.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by fiddlebliss
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
This is more like it. The same is true of wind players, and even piano accordion players ~ any player that comes from a basically 'classical' background, as can be said for guitarists, mandolinists, etc... There are, as fiddlebliss says, benefits to be had too, but there is a lot of work to get past the preconceptions that are drummed into someone through training, to get them to even abandon these hard held rules, and to move into the realm of another tradition ~ Irish, Cape Breton, Hungarian, Klezmer, Jazz ~ whatever... They all have their own accents ~ national, regional, local, individual...
The worst I've had to deal with is the incomplete, where someone has had the classical training but never moved beyond the rules to become a soloist. A soloist has to have a certain openness to new ideas. I'd have to agree that the main problem I've heard and worked to change was with regards to articulation and rhythm. For ears trained otherwise, the classical way can sound very robotic, an uncomfortable constant. With wind players it is tonguing every damn note...like James Galway does when he does his whistle party pieces. For me it just sounds stilted, awful, as does the overuse of vibrato by the 'classically' trained...
How do you lost this ~ fiddlebliss has the answer ~ in the past and present posts ~ you go out and you use your ears and you tie up with someone respected in this music, someone whose sound and way with the music you like ~ and you apprentice, you take every opportunity to extend yourself, to learn...and to unlearn, the latter usually being the hardest, to give up hard practiced techniques, too often also taken for granted, never questioned...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I don't have a classical sound to lose, have been learning from an Irish teacher from the beginning, but I listen to classical music enough that I think it creeps into my playing every once in a while...
There is one technique that I almost learned the wrong way---it's that pedal-note string crossing bit that occurs in so many tunes, "E2BE dEBE", "D2AD BDAD", etc. There is a specific way to play these to get the right sound. Originally I had been playing each note consecutively---all in the right rhythm, but each note on its own. Apparently this is more the Baroque way of playing. The better way is to play them almost as double-stops---keep the bow on the pedal note (E and D respectively in the above examples) while playing the notes around it. It's possible (and sounds nice) to play these all on the same bow. Kind of hard to explain, and takes some getting used to, but worth the effort. Frankie Gavin does nice examples of these.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by kennedy
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
That's another fiddler with a classical influence ~ Frankie Gavin...no criticism intended...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
There are lots of traditional fiddlers with classical backgrounds or experience, ceolachan. Means absolutely nothing in terms of predicting their abilities to play traditional style.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by kennedy
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Yes, yes kennedy! That's it exactly. That's one of the things that was a total breakthrough for me. Like with Drowsy Maggie. I used to play it very separately (nice articulation and all), but now I kind of rock my bow from the E to the B, E to the c, etc. (and put a little oomph on the B,c,B etc.), and it sounds like a totally different tune.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by fiddlebliss
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Although I've always been, and still am, a classical cellist, I've only been playing the fiddle for 7 years, and that in an Irish music environment. I suspect that my fiddle playing is sounding more Irish than classical, but I'm open to correction on that point.
Last week in a session I played on my own Michael Turner's Waltz (tune #7077) which is actually a bit of genuine Mozart - see the comments in #7077 for details. While I was playing, it occurred to me that if I played like that (style-wise) in my chamber orchestra I'd get some funny looks and comments, so the style I was playing in that session evidently wasn't Mozartian, whatever it was! Perhaps I am indeed starting to wear two hats.
A few months ago, in order to improve my overall technique I started taking lessons from a professional Suzuki teacher who teaches classical, folk, jazz and improvisation, and is also the fiddle lead in a long-standing folk band. With that background I think there is little danger I'm going to be forced into an exclusively classical style.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I've been listening to classical music for most of my life, and Irish music for the past few years. It's been one month since I started playing the fiddle, and I have no classical training in music of any kind (just lots of listening experience).
Could someone explain the differences in technique you're talking about? The primary difference I hear is in the music itself, and as a beginning fiddler I have a hard time labeling the nuances in playing style. I guess it might help to hear a classical piece played with a "fiddle" style, and a traditional tune played with a "classical" style. It's just hard for me to visualize, or whatever the auditory equivalent would be.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Scott Esch
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Play the 6th note slightly flat.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by PatrickJWK
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Scott--fiddlebliss mentioned an important point, for Irish style fiddling at least: slurring across strings, by "rocking the bow."
Here's an example of some fiddle tunes played "classical style": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvjQ8TfMjf0
As you see, violinists use a lot of vibrato, and tend not to slur across strings (I think--my classical exposure was quite limited, so I could be wrong about that) which makes a tune like Drowsy Maggie sound stilted.
Here's another example; note the contrast in bowing style (pause the clip until it finishes downloading, to get smoother motion):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A8JW_JXiFv8
Doesn't the guy in the monkey suit look like he is working too hard?
That's not the whole violin vs. fiddle story, but it's a start.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by mickray
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Mickray, in your first example the most obvious things are that the rolls are too drawn out and the timing isn't even spot on by classical standards. Then of course the dance "lift" is missing.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Donough
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Apologies for my part in that other thread and especially to anyone still pondering what a classical accent on a bodhran might sound like. Sigh. It's been a wild weekend out here on Brokeback Mountain (a.k.a Cody, WY)
Seriously, haven't seen anyone mention this simple thing for fiddle:
What I hear is that most of a classical "accent" comes from a strong initial attack of the note and then not varying your bow speed (swelling/decaying). And mostly just that. I.E. Exactly what you're supposed to do in classical style and get yelled at by your teacher if you don't.
The classically trained folks I know would get the most mileage out of looking at the swell-by-bowspeed thing first and foremost. If your classical teacher starts giving you grief about a inconstant bowspeed then you might be on the right track.
Got that, Will?
<snort>
(for the record, Will is a wonderful trad fiddler w/ a great sense of style, wit and especially humor, but no classical accent)
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by dlewicki
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Yes, Donough, of course you are correct about the rolls, and the timing.
But her bowing is also a clear sign that she's a violinist who has not learned Irish fiddle technique--well, that, and the music stand. ;>}
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by mickray
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
dlewicki, I am not so sure, about not varying bow speed in Irish fiddle. Martin Hayes certainly does, a lot. That may be just his style, and not "really traditional"--but I don't think I would have the guts to tell him he's doing it all wrong!
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by mickray
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I grew up playing classical violin, and over the past 6 or so years I've transitioned to ITM... and the one change in particular that I've noticed is that I now tend to change bow direction based on string crossings as opposed to the notes themselves. In classical music you are usually 'supposed' to bow based on written patterns that often mean a bow change every 2 or 4 notes (or some other pattern that might be unique to the piece itself but is nonetheless standardized within the piece)... but I now notice that I just slur almost everything on one string and change bow direction when I cross strings.
Also, in ITM you can sit in your chair however you want. You don't have to sit up perfectly straight like you have a broomstick up your @&$.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by heisenburger
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
oops, sorry dlewicki, I misread your post. never mind. mea culpa.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by mickray
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Lots of interesting subtleties mentioned above but to state the obvious, for fiddlers it's that right arm, innit? Big swinging right arm movements tell most of the story a mile away.
Do wrist and elbow move up and down together most of the time, or are they often moving in opposite directions? Stiff wrist or flexible? Etc.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Listen to and absorb Paddy Canny?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Wounded hussar, I'd say that's the best advice so far, listening to and absorbing the style of Paddy Canny or other good traditional players will be more helpful than anything else.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by cathycook
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
"That's another fiddler with a classical influence ~ Frankie Gavin...no criticism intended..."
he is most certainly not classical, one of the least clasical players. that is wrong.
eg: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QZiFmOe4Mo
side by side they are miles apart.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by SamW
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I just clicked on the first half dozen or so "drowsy maggies" on you tube at random. Now I'm depressed.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
As a flute player, it is quite irritating when fiddlers (or Banjo players etc.) play the pedal pointed bits double stopped. Completely buggers up my rhythm. Especially if they are a.playing faster than I'm comfortable with and b. don't do it every time. I find the pedal pointed bit is not just a two voice harmony but each note pair has its' own shape with the weaker articulating the stronger - this is all gone if a multi stringed instrument just double stops.
Double stopping has its place, but I don't think the start of Drowsy Maggie is it. Note that a blurred crossing between the two strings is completely different to a double stop and that I do like. Nothing irritates me more than the piano accoridon player who plays this sequence as two finger chords in crotchet tempo.
(Just my opinion and I'm not very good, so don't pay attention to anything I say...)
And an awful lot of the classical flute teaching i have had has spent time concentrating on the shape (dynamics/tone colour) of individual notes and groups of notes, i.e. for a fiddle that would be "inconstant bow speed" i.e something the player can should use even in classical music. But it should be under control, not just because the player isn't paying attention to what their bow is doing.
Listen to lots of good stuff and try to play like that... If you aren't sure then record yourself and try to work out where the differences are.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I'm just listening to Mayy Molloy play Drowsy Maggie. I feel much better now.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Fiddlebliss is clearly describing, for Irish fiddle, the same thing I've encountered over the years teaching Irish flute workshops.
Because "classical" flute players bring a lot more to the table than the "good intonation, solid rythm, and warm full tone" that Greg mentions.
They bring an approach to articulation which is utterly at odds with how Irish fluteplaying traditionally sounds.
They bring a way of moving their fingers (made necessary by the fact that their fingers are resting on the keys of the Boehm flute) which is too slow to execute Irish cuts and pats.
They bring a tone (admittedly "warm and full") which is different than the usual tone heard among Irish players.
They bring vibrato. Lots of vibrato. They sometimes have immense difficulty in NOT playing vibrato.
As someone pointed out above, the better the "classical" flutist, the more easily they can alter their style.
Some are never able to sound convincingly Irish, a few are.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Richard D Cook
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I wonder what classical flute players sounded like pre 1850s when they all played the same flutes us diddlers now play? But then the violins them and us play are the same instrument?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Lots already covered here, here's some fiddle-specific ones (and a couple random ones thrown in)
in general, less bow
softer - you don't need to push sound over other instruments. careful whilst playing in session.
don't speed up the bow on main beats (I see this all the time and it messes up people's rhythm esp. on jigs)
put yourself in the presence of people who understand the music (general comment)
record yourself from time to time (general, too)
Listen to the ornaments of other instruments, and try to duplicate them. If you understand how wind players *have* to do rolls and cuts, your own attempts will improve. And you'll probably learn how to do a cran on open D, which is relatively useless but amusing.
Understand that a large number of people with contradictory viewpoints will tell you things to do constantly in your first five years of playing.These statements will often come into conflict. sometimes, these are useful suggestions, and sometimes, you simply learn more about the perspective of the advisor. When you can sort these out you'll learn three things: first, the useful information; second, what ticks people off; and third, you'll eventually learn that there are often more than half a dozen (or a hundred, if you like) equally valid solutions to bowing and ornaments, valid names for tunes, valid sets of notes within tunes, and that these all vary between regional style and player. If you can simultaneously hold that third idea in your head and respect the work of the old masters, you'll be able to become a knowledgeable practicioner without falling into the trap of dogma.
listen
listen
listen
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by reenactor
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
crackpot, why would double-stopped pedal notes throw off your rhythm? I'm not saying it shouldn't, I'm just curious. Are the fiddlers/banjo players in question playing with solid rhythm themselves?
I should note that I originally said "almost" double-stopped, because if it's done right, both notes don't get equal pressure/emphasis all the way through---the notes of the melody are heard most clearly, but the bow doesn't leave either string, which is meant to add texture to the sound. It's kind of hard to explain in written words. I don't know if most/many players do this, I just remember that I learned it as something that isdifferent from the classical way of doing things.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by kennedy
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
How do you lose a classical sound? I lost mine by quitting classical music when I was 13. Not sure if that will work for everyone though.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
After you have learned a tune, throw the dots away and don't play what is written - play what comes to you.
Listen to as many different trad players as you can so you learn to recognise styles and even individual players.
Develop your own style - don't just copy one persons.
Never stop learning.
Give something back - Help and encourage as many beginners as you can to take up instruments and to carry on playing, and pass on some of your musical training to them.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
...and, in all fairness, I had a classical teacher once castigate me for not listening to classical music, which was the best thing he could have done for me. "How can you play what you're not listening to?" Conversley, how can you play music you don't want to listen to? Logically, how can you possible play "Irish" if you aren't constantly listening to it? The analogy of music as language is key here, immersion in the language/music is the best way to learn.
So ultimately, if you're seeking to lose a sound and adopt another one, you should be constantly listening to the sound you are trying to adopt. How can you learn Spanish without constantly listening to people speak it, for example?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Get down and dirty... As the Cape Bretoners say, and they have the classical influence, it has to have 'dirt' in it... It is using those rough things that classical music tries so hard to eliminate, the barks and scrapes and shudders and off coloured tones and microtones and ~ using them with affect, to drive the music and define the rhythm and dance in it ~ a squack here, a bark there, a gravel slide at just the right point...to value the full spectrum of possibilities of the instrument, not just the pure tone but all the possibilities this music can take advantage of because its not in a straight jacket. But this is an each-to-his own thing. Some folks do it a lot and obviously, some are more subtle with their use of the rough with the smooth... That contrast, whether in the voice of a singer or in the bow of a fiddler ~ is to me sheer heaven. I love it passionately. I can enjoy a beautifully clean player, though I hate vibrato, but my preferences are for the variety this music allows and nurtures...including the earthy, dirty bits...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Lovely Geoff!!! I'm trying... No wisecracks!
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
This thread is an age-old question...
As a classically trained violinist, i've been playing trad for about 15-ish years. I have resigned myself to the fact that i'll always sound a little bit classical, its a lifelong affliction.
But here's an interesting point.. i remember playing in a classical competition as a teenager and after i came off stage a guy i'd never met asked me 'you play traditional don't you?'
So do classical players that play ITM betray a slight trad style while they're playing classical?
Discuss.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by jfiddlerh
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Pride, a problem we will all faced at one time or another, may be one of the main blocks in the way of progress here. When you consider how much is sacraficed to become a decent classical musician, all that time and effort, once you've accomplished some level of competence you are only naturally going to feel some pride in the results of all that work and effort. To then be faced with the idea of losing it, or setting some of that aside ~ that's got to hurt. I feel for you, all that struggle to accomplish something and then your told it doesn't quite work in another realm of your instrument's influence... The other problem would be that you work so hard for something to become second nature that you forget exactly what it is, you take it for granted, you're blinkered to its interference with regards to learning a different genre, acquiring that accent. I mean, you've always been told that 'this' is the right way, no other, no questions... Worse if someone is so bold to tell you to your face that all this hard won skill is, in this situation, crap! ~ or something along that line, softly delivered or cruelly.
I understand when it seems almost like a religion, classical musicians who are convinced they are right, they have all the answers, they are the chosen ones practicing the true way. Yes, I've come across those too. Even if you are aware there is a difference, something else, like this music, you may still have a block inside fed by the endless repetition of what's right that was drummed in to you while you studied the classical way diligently. It is kind of brain washing, and some teachers are very adept at practicing it...
Maybe it is like trying to give up smoking? It is at least a habit after as much practice as it requires. Undoing it must be at least as hard as giving up ciggies, maybe worse, as what needs to be relaxed and set aside may be too deep set to see and deal with, being taken for granted, even forgotten...
I suspect the best teacher to help someone move forward would be someone who understands that struggle and knows the differences, someone who has been through it themselves?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Ceolachan, that's such an awesome straw man argument. What's really great about it is that it's just nebulous enough to make most people doubt there ears, but goes on long enough to have a whiff of legitimacy. I'm truly impressed.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by reenactor
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
"their". and to think, I'm a schoolteacher.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by reenactor
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
jfiddlerh, I once had an orchestra stand partner who was also a bluegrass fiddler. He drove me nuts. Always putting accents in the wrong places, playing too loudly in quiet sections, and generally lacking the delicacy needed to play, say, Mozart.
This was before I took up fiddle myself, so I had no sympathy.
I quit playing in orchestras a couple years ago. My pea brain finds it too hard to switch back and forth between styles like that, and I decided I'd rather focus on the fiddle music.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by fiddlebliss
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
The 'how' of it is sort of interesting, but just btw, three of my favorite fiddlers to play with have classical backgrounds, as do
two of my three favorite flutists.
Of all those, I hear the 'classical' formality from only one of 'em, and that very rarely.
Now that I start to count 'em, a whole bunch of players around the Ohio River Valley have classical training. I don't think anyone would know without finding out in conversation...
stv
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by stv culchie
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Yes reenactor, I was pouring over that one while collecting wild garlic... I suspect that those that are drawn to it, by passion and appreciation, are in that very act stepping past any negating pride & practice that might stand in the way of their accomplishing an understanding and ability with this music... Love conquers all, eh?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
However, "Pride!" does have that ability to get in the way of progress and understanding...as can habit...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
No, love does not conquer all when learning music. However, if you'd actually like to help someone, it may behoove you to point out specifics rather than making a grand vague argument about why something is impossible (or nearly so, please don't quibble on degree here), and how if you're doing it wrong you won't know that you're doing it wrong.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by reenactor
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I live in an area that’s heavily infested with bluegrass and old-time players (
) and lately I’ve been noticing a gentleman playing with an eclectic bluegrass band, whom the local newspaper referred to as a “master fiddler.” He plays bluegrass, “old standards” and novelty numbers but, after the first dozen notes I heard, it was perfectly obvious that he is a classically trained violinist. He just doesn’t have a grasp of groove or swing. He gets all the notes in, but his rhythm is just approximate and there’s no pulse to it. That’s pretty much the antithesis of any traditional dance-based music.
It occurs to me that I could probably have watched a silent video of this guy playing with a bluegrass band and still detected that he was a violinist. I wouldn’t even have to watch his arm move and count beats. It was just so obvious that he was working hard to get all the notes properly played before the tune was over.
I think it’s that sense of a solid, danceable rhythmic framework that tends to be foreign to a classically trained player. Playing with classical rubato tends to rub out that sense of groove. It also interferes with developing a solid sense of syncopation.
I’m reminded of an old friend who teaches and calls dances. Once, he found himself without a band and with a group of folks ready to learn a dance. He quickly rounded up a scrub board and thimble and proceeded to scratch out a solid, swinging rhythm while he called the dance. Everybody seemed to enjoy it.
The moral is pretty obvious.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
"After you have learned a tune, throw the dots away and don't play what is written"
"After"? Sorry. Don't get that. How about just playing the tune?
Meanwhile ... How not to sound classical? Well, for a start, the one thing classical fiddlers do, which drives me round the twist, is they play with this full bow action, but much worse - they sort of lift their shoulder as they play and then have this exaggerated bending action on their wrist when they get to the frog, which, sadly, they do quite a lot. I don't really understand why they do this, as it is normally something done by fairly poor classical players, presumably in imitation of the natural action, which is a bit similar but not so exaggerated.
All of which reminds me of a comment made by me ole pal, Peter Kennedy, a fine fiddler himself, Lord rest him, when talking about someone who happens to think they're pretty special hereabouts: "I first met him when he was giving a workshop in 'traditional fiddle playing' which, as far as I could see, consisted of playing classical fiddle ... badly".
Anyone local who knows what they're talking about may well be able to guess to whom Peter was referring.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
reenactor, we will just have to disagree. I believe that having an appreciation and passion for this music is a great start ~ and having a willingness to question and an openness to learn. Sorry if that is too sweeping and vague for you. The obvious is always repeated ~ listen, listen again, seek out those who have what you aspire to and learn from them. Trying to get too specific in a thread like this can be a bit silly at times. It will always require the ears...
Anyone who aspires has my blessings, and if I can help direct, one-to-one ~ I do and am... I also have experience helping others to get past what can be disabilities, like being entrenched in a different tradition ~ 'clasasical' or otherwise... I do my best to put my waffle into practice ~ regularly, including on this site... If you don't like what I waffle on about ~ skip over it. See if you can offer something more useful. I look forward to that...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
There are loads of ideas by informed sources on this site with regards to technique, but it will always come down to the ears.
For example, here's some fresh useful guidance, including nofrets' short and sweet account of a workshop with James Kelly, someone who has a lovely way with this music, great understanding, and an excellent teacher...
Discussion: Fiddle bowing advice?!
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by suzie_eve
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17680
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Appreciating there's a difference is the best first step...
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
1. Listen
2. Listen
3. Hear
Open your ears.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by stevekeene
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
And your mind
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by stevekeene
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
To expand the discussion a bit, how does one lose that American jazz swing and phrasing that comes from years of big band trumpet playing? And how much of that background do you want to lose? Can you bring some of those other influences into ITM without 'betraying' the tradition?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
reenactor, skip over this ~ more flights of fancy ~
With Opera, one of the bastions of music considered 'classical', the focus seems to be on technique, on tone, on the voice as a musical instrument, on the performance ~ rather than on the content, the words and their clarity and meaning. What I've consistently found missing in the classical interpretations of traditional music, amongst other things, is the 'dance'. Even with classical interpretations of classical pieces tagged as 'dance' ~ polka, waltz, mazurka, troika ~ they have mostly tended to be somewhat flat, lacking, lifeless in this regard, as to what defines and gives the lift and drive that is 'dance' ~ at least to my ears and feet. Like the Opera singer, the focus is other than where tradition would have it, choosing technique, the instrument, the musician and the performance over the tune, rhythm and the dance in it. This lack of understanding and redirection of expression is not limited to a 'classical' background. Nor is the 'dance' necessarily absent just because one's primary musical upbringing is 'classical'. Bad, lifeless and danceless interpretations of music are not limited to one source, cause or genre.
Articulation, pulse, phrase ~ the breath that drives this music ~ the bow with the fiddle ~ the breath and tongue with winds ~ that edge that makes your feet want to answer it with a tap, a step, is often lost in the obsession with purity of tone and perfection of technique. Traditional music is physical, it is dance music in the main, while 'classical' tends to want to focus more on the intellectual, often losing definition in that obsession with forms, technique and the performance... Instead of being moved physically, your feet remain still and you might move forward to listen more intently to what is being done, rather than wanting to participate in it physically, as through dance or the tapping of your foot...
Al, yes, I think you can find skill developed elsewhere, in another genre, that can benefit you learning and exercising this one. It you have a passion for both, and experience with both, that experience and your ears will tell you where there's possible agreement. You don't want to 'lose' what you've worked hard to gain, it shouldn't be a matter of giving up hard won skill ~ but listening and hearing the differences and the agreements ~ distinguishing one from the other. Others have compared it to learning a language. You still need and use the same basic tools, and you benefit from already having a language to start with ~ then you practice that new language, and eventually you work on making it clearer by introducing sounds and inflection, accent, native to it. There may still be some residue of your native tongue, more than likely, but that is part of the charm that will mark out your use of it as unique. Taking on the colloquial and a more defined accent comes with exercising that language with natives. In the case of music, other musicians... Again, it's all with the ears, and the passion that motivates you to want to make the effort in the first place. The tools you've learned to understand and use in one form can help you in another, including your ears...
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I need all your sympathy and support. Tonight I lost my classical sound, my baroque touch, my romantic taste, my rococo smell, and my post-modern look. I think I put them on my desk, but now I can't find them anywhere. They are insured for their cost, but not their replacement value. If anyone sees them for sale on e-bay, please let me know. (By the way, I'm also missing my keys. They were on a ring. In addition to the major ones in D and G, I can't find the ones to my E, A, and G door, Ian, and there may be a few others mixed in, Lydia.)
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Mickray, thanks for those examples, they were pretty clear.
When it comes to slurring across the strings, I've already got that one down! I don't even mean to do it, I just assumed I was being sloppy. So I guess I don't have to worry about "fixing" that. Along with many other habits I'll probably be thankful that I started out in this genre, as I don't see myself having any opportunities to play classical music in the future, but there will always be a pub with sessions wherever I end up.
I think I can see a few of the other differences people are talking about, but in reverse. Every other day or so I'll play a tiny bit of Mozart or Boccherini for fun, and I can tell I'm missing something important from the sound. There are clearly a lot of techniques required to make those pieces sound right that I'm just not working on. You guys clearly don't like traditional music played with classical interpretation - I guarantee you my trad interpretation of Mozart is scheisse. And not just because I'm a rank novice, either... stop laughing.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Scott Esch
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Al, the NYC / Sligo fiddlers were influenced by jazz and the
ones "back home" would have been too. And you can hear a
bluegrass, rock and old timey influence too. Ireland didn't spend
the last 85 years in a glass jar
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by mhuppert
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Gary, get ahold of yourself, just so long as you haven't lost your Mona Lisa smile...
My greatest interest and appreciation is for the influence of 'dance', probably already clear. I just put on an old recording of a scraper who hasn't what classical musicians might call a 'good technique'. Having spent some time with him, his hold is odd, and as you might expect, he never moved out of first position. In this cas he only had three strings and they were old and there was rosin everywhere. His tone was crap, by modern standards ~ but listening to the like I can't keep my feet still, or my heart. He cuts and scrapes in a way that lifts my feet off the ground and sets them back down in time to his sawing. It also makes me smile.
I also appreciate things 'classical' and was recently listening to violinist Giuliano Camignola, lovely stuff, beautiful, but it don't make me want to dance... I enjoy it. I don't mind being an appreciative audience, but I particularly like to be moved to move by music, especially when it is supposed to be 'dance music'... I know you can have the benefits of classical training, good tone and technique, and also be able to excite feet and the heart ~ there are loads of examples in this music of those that can and do. There are also plenty of examples, whatever the influence, of those that can play a tune but can't dance it with their instrument. It's hard to explain, but I've even heard both ways by the same player, Sean Keane, the difference between his performance mode, up on stage, and when he's taking his ease in Clare with some old fiddling mates and dancers before him. I suspect that he dances helps him find that in his bow and fingers...
So, not just listening, it undoubtedly helps to get physical ~ to get into the dance so you can understand the subtleties and the obvious of that accent on this music...
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Sean Keane ~ a clarity check ~ "I suspect that he dances helps him find that in his bow and fingers..." ~ was meant to mean ~ He dances, and I know that helps him to find and define and lift the 'dance' with his bow and fingers...
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
Gary, I am sorry for your loss, regardless of any insurance, it sounds like the sentimental value of what you lost is immeasurable.
And ceolachan, I think you have put your finger on it--it is the pulse of the dance that animates this music!
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: How do you "lose" a classical sound?
I confess to not reading all of this thread, but I think there are some great trad fiddlers who've also had classical training. As far as I can see, they don't try to "lose" the classical sound. You can still hear it in their playing - it's just part of their style, as much as the air they breathe and teh part of the world they come from.
Willie Hunter, for example.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=6_5hSUs11Jo
# Posted on May 8th 2008 by Bren