Recently, while playing unaccompanied fiddle for a bunch of folk who had probably never heard ITM. [really, they exist, unbelievable i know!] I found myself minimalising the melody first time round befor reintroduceing the notes and ornaments etc slowly through the tune, which i also happened to play quite a lot of times.
I have found that this can resonate more with a generation of folk bought up n simple song melodies and catchy hooks.
I consider 'capturing' an audience an important part of a musicians craft.
so the discussion is about ways to capture an audience and their attention, tricks to solo playing , keeping an audience, creating a 'vibe' etc
I remember years ago Martin Hayes telling us that when he felt he was losing an audience he would 'focus'.......
Jig, there are literally millions of people, in my observation anyway, who know zilch about ITM, or what it is. I would guess that a huge proportion of the population of my own country for example (Australia) would have no knowledge whatsoever of the existence of ITM. The next level 'up' seems to think it is Danny Boy (and then they start singing an excerpt in parody), saying "oh, you mean that!". They actually wouldn't have any knowledge of old music-hall "Irish" songs beyond that.
As a corollary, there are millions more who don't know that Ireland has its own language (besides English that is), and many who think that Irish 'language' means Irish accent! I have heard it said, I kid you not.
I was engaged some years back to do uilleann pipe backing for a television sports advertisement. When I went to the studio and asked to begin playing something, the studio guy cut in from behind his glass enclosure saying something like "can you not do that thingy you're doing on the pipes". Turned out he didn't want any ornamentation *whatsoever*. Nothing. Just three or four sustained notes, that's it. Not until they got that were they happy, then they said how good it was.
Ah well, easy money I guess.
'Capturing' an audience? I have always believed that ITM has a good degree of 'audience capture factor' already written in, and that the musician is the conduit. There are things that the musician can do to aid and abet that process, but in my observation, for a 'non-technical' ITM audience, ornamentation and tricks to solo playing as examples, don't do it.
Many people not conversant with ITM at all, in my observation, even think that ITM "sounds all the same". Musicians and ITM enthusiasts know better, but millions don't.
'Capturing an audience' (depending on the type of audience) in ITM, seems to me to be more about the 'vibe' of the tune - competently played - rather than technicalities, which seem to be lost on the 'non-ITM' audience.
Audients can listen to reel after spectacular reel, and appreciate it, but then play them Inisheer, as an example, they erupt into applause!
I hate the whole idea of capturing an audience, actually...what I love is when the character of a person contains some kind of magic, a presence that makes an occasion special...like this old fella, just the man, the fiddle, the tune, that's all it needs.
In ITM, I think there is very much the potential for interaction of 'character' with the music in terms of how it might be received by an audience. 'Capturing' might not be the right word, don't know, 'affecting' might be better...
Playing some particular tunes on pipes, for example, I have often felt quite apart from what is going on between the tune, the pipes and the audience, except for the fact that I was playing the tune, and *imagining* how the tune affected me, and whether it affected the audience in the same way. It invariably did.
It's a weird 'confluence of influence', for want of a better term.
I agree with you, llig. But at the same time, I've got great respect and affection for the showman tradition, I think there's something sublime about a person who can make a living doing street theatre, or Punch and Judy, and that sort of thing. I met a guy once who travelled and lived from nothing but a wooden duck puppet suspended on strings, that he'd walk along beside him, telling it to do tricks. It was so stupid, yet people loved it. But that was long ago. These days, well, check this out
Yeah, well perhaps it's mostly in my imagined romantic history, or maybe it's the way it happened, but I think of those folks who left Rajahstan, probably because of drought, or war, or famine, who became the 'gypsies', as they moved slowly westwards over centuries, trying to survive amongst foreigners. They danced and sang and struggled. There's all kinds of ways to earn a bit of money, selling lucky charms, telling fortunes, playing music, making jewellery, doing tricks that entertain folks. Such people are almost always looked down on, as the bottom end of the social hierarchy. But in my scale of values, a guy who can use a painted wooden duck, that costs a few pence to make, articulated with string, to pull a crowd and have them squealing with pleasure and parting with money, well, it's an awesome achievement....(and none of the crap and hassle that goes with running a formulaic stadium megastar roadshow. )
I suppose we could get people interested in classical by playing simplified, stripped-down versions of the big tunes before introducing them to the hard reality of the full-blown versions. Dum dum dum dum dum dum dum, dum dum dum dum duum-de-dum, sort of style. Without the tough harmony of course. People are so stupid. They must have their art fed to them in dribs and drabs, never the whole, which would only give them indigestion.
In other words, I think it's a crap idea. Play the stuff like you always play the stuff. If they listen they listen. If they don't listen it's their funeral and it don't matter a jot. It matters even less than a jot whether you "capture" 'em or not. They can all sod off for all I care.
Ah steve, i never play the same tune the same way twice.... so your comment makes no sense.unless, of course you just repeat yourself over and over and presume others do also?
Perhaps for an amature such as yourself steve it doesnt matter a whit whether people want to listen or just find your stuff dull. However as a pro it certainly does. now go away yourself.
I forgot that i prefer not to indulge you in your favourite game of sh1t stirring. yawn..
no wolfbird i dont mean showmanship, rather sensitivity to the vibe, feeling reactions etc of the people round you, musicians included. rather than just ignoring them, and doing your own thing without reference to others but actively moment by moment being aware of the crowd and musicians and their reactions and even pre-empting them.
There's a few different things going on there, jig. There's the crowd, large or small, who are likely all strangers. There's fellow musicians, who you probably know, and need to stay connected with. And then there's your own feelings. And it depends if you're the front man, the centre of attention, or a backer in the background.
And when you start playing, it all changes and you have to surf the changes. There's a structure to the thing, through time. If you want to pull people in, then you need to get their attention with something at the start. And you want to end with a climax, so they want more. Because if everyone just carries on talking and drinking or walking past, as if there is no entertainer, or if they are really bored and boo at the end, you have not provided what they want. (I'm talking about showmanship, not sessions in a pub).
Maybe it's a bit esoteric for this site, but I use tantien (Chinese) or tanden (Japanese) or hara, to keep control over my own feelings and to feel the vibe coming from others. It's a bit like a valve, you can open or close. I'm not a natural show off, so being the centre of attention of a lot of people used to make me very nervous, so I had to learn to do it. Some people never have that problem, they naturally love the buzz and hate when it stops. Mostly, an audience wants to hear something nice, so they can get off on it, so you give 'em a nice rhythm so they start to respond and then off it goes. I usually tried to shut out as much as I could and concentrate on my playing. Don't know if that's what you wanted to discuss ?
What are you on about steve? Are you suggesting that people should not post here unless they show there credentials? Thats not the way it goes..... when, and if I chose, I will do so.
Thats great wolfbird... very relevant and interesting, well put.
I ve been gigging since I was 14 so It comes naturally to me. I actually like to play background music as well, where the focus is on their dinner and conversation, but here again I would be tailoring my 'performance' to the vibe. using that same sensitivity you describe re; Hara.
''There's the crowd, large or small, who are likely all strangers. There's fellow musicians, who you probably know, and need to stay connected with.''
funny , quite often for me its the other way round, I will be playing with strangers in front of a crowd of friends! and of course playing with strangers in front of a crowd of strangers.
But DD this is not dumming down , quite the opposite, it is using all the options available, allowing my nature to be present in my music, sure I might avoid displays of technical virtuosity at first, the opposite in fact , I might intentionally play in a rough style to lower expectations so that when I pull out the stops it blows their minds. gently insinuating myself into the atmosphere rather than pushing my way in.
technical virtuosity is all very well but it is not everything, rather one aspect of a performance...... I just wondered whether other people did this at all, and perhaps my experiance might help others who struggle to deal with a crowd.
Aha. So you don't have any then. That's what I'm on about. You can't choose to because you don't have any. You're all airy-fairy theory, mate. The only professional credentials you've ever told us about are your lessons teaching scales. You know, I'd love you to prove me wrong. Sound clips would do it. Make your day, why don't you. Make me eat sh!t!
Thinking about it, and that hara thing....there's teachings out of qi gong, (or whatever the correct name is), that you aim to have roughly 60 percent attention focussed inside, 40 percent outside.
I practice this stuff all day every day, 'every minute zen', and if I had to do what you do, go to a strange place with strange people, that'd be quite unusual and stressful for me these days. What I do in those sort of circumstances - like, if I had to go into a high power meeting or give a talk - I put all attention into the soles of my feet, so I'm glued to the planet and can't be pushed off balance. That's as I'm entering the experience. Then I shift, less of the feet, more of the hara, and monitoring the info my mind is throwing up as it reads the situation. Once past the entering and beginning, things usually relax.
If I'm playing music, like I said, I try to give that about eighty percent attention, because I'm always afraid of a mistake that'll mess it up...I guess that's a bit like an actor, forgetting their lines. Then, there's an art to avoiding panic and recovering fast so things don't get worse. I mean, this is quite personal stuff, everybody's different. I don't think there's fixed rules or anything like that. Just tips and tricks for particular circumstances. There's plenty of ways *not* to do it. I mean, if you're playing to people who are eating, and intrude into their space crudely and uninvited, they're not going to like it.
Wow, what a novel thought. Start with the basic theme, and then repeat it with increasing amounts of embelishment and variation. Why hasn't anyone ever thought of that before now?
He's so great at criticising other people's playing whether in your thread or this one, and whether he's heard them or not, but he refuses to demonstrate his own talents, if he has any. You wouldn't buy a bloody used car off him, would you. All I'm asking is that he proves that he can actually play an instrument. Not difficult I would have thought, and I won't dream of commenting on his playing until I've heard it. It's the least we can expect from a bloke who sets himself up as something of a forum elder.
Actually as you know that is standard practice amongst many musicians. What I found myself doing was actually not playing notes from the tune , not just avoiding ornaments but reducing the tune down to its very basic form, and beyond.
"Reducing the tune to its very basic form, and beyond." What the hell does that mean. Don't try to tell me, jig. I want to go to bed in a minute, savouring the sheer inanity of that sentence. Who needs meds.
Absolutely right, old chap, I don't. You were playing a tune but not playing notes from the tune and you were reducing the tune to beyond its very basic form. Such clarity. I'd love to be in one of your lessons.
I like that idea. Strip away everything that's not essential, so only the skeleton of the tune is left. Then take it past that point, leaving just a few notes, and play with that boundary, the threshold, where the mind struggles to reinsert recognition. I think it's fascinating how that happens. Some people have amazing sensitivity for pop music. Just a fraction of a second in, and they recognize the record. I think it's fun and interesting to play with a melody line, it deepens one's understanding.
''... i like this idea; ''I put all attention into the soles of my feet, so I'm glued to the planet and can't be pushed off balance. That's as I'm entering the experience.''
I will give it a go...
Yeah, I mean we are so used to putting more stuff into the tunes, ornaments etc, I like the idea of taking stuff out... At what point , i wonder lightheartedly, does a tune become 'not a tune' ?
I must say that if I was part of an audience and the performer was avoiding displays of technical virtuosity, but only at first, with the hope that my expectations were lowered ... and then he pulled out the stops in the hope that it blew mind, I'd be flabbergasted at the man's utter disrespect for me.
And I'd astounded to learn that he thought that performing came naturally to him. I'd be more inclined to believe that his true nature was present in his music.
I havn't played the bazouki for 15 years, since it broke. Shame, it was a good bazouki, but I don't really miss it. I occasionally twonk a string bass (not mine) in the pub for a laugh, though I'm not very good. Also, I can't play it for more than a set or two, it butchers your fingers.
Michael even reveals that I'm near Bude and not in it. And I have sound clips up. You don't, at least not in any guise I could recognise, in spite of multifarious requests. Several people have sent me offlist messages to say that Michael is a superb player. I don't tell him because I don't want it going to his head. I can take it from anybody whom I know is a great player. That's one way of earning respect around here. Actually, Michael, so that I can bend over backwards to support you against this charlatan I should point out that it's Wahs. Any other reverse spelling simply doesn't wash.
I like it. It sort of relates me to Eivets Rednow, that great harmonica player. We may be in the kindergarten but it's better than being in your kindergarten where we'd be practising scales all day instead of having all this fun.
No jig, I'm serious here. The reason my moniker is reversed is because I don't want my name to be googled so easily. Now it is. You have no respect. I do not hide who I am, the information is freely available.
It would appear that your true nature is present in your postings here as well as, probably, your music. (though it seems we'll never know for sure)
anyway, what would you think if you were part of an audience and the performer was avoiding displays of technical virtuosity, but only at first, with the hope that your expectations were lowered ... and then he pulled out the stops in the hope that it blew your mind?
The phrase reductio ad absurdum comes to mind when I think of this discussion. And it was rather absurd to begin with. Quick, someone jump in and abuse a scientific theory by using it as an analogy (which has been occurring far to often lately on this site), and try to explain what lies beyond absurdity......
Al said it above--paring down to the minimum melody and then layering in more each time around is a time honored part of this tradition. Nothing new in that idea, nor in the realization that it creates interest for anyone within ear shot. Of course, not everyone uses this approach.
Some contemporary players are pushing the envelope of how far they can strip a tune down and not violate local indecency laws. Martin Hayes comes to mind, but I don't really consider him a minimalist. Laura Risk, at least on some of her recordings, certainly bares the melody's bones.
I'm not at all sure, but the original post seems to be happily wondering about the sort of reverie a musician can enter when playing this music, and the joys of infecting anyone listening with that same reverie. Doing that with forethought and intent is what showmanship is all about. But we can also be less deliberate about it--just be ourselves with the music and give others an opportunity to join us. That, to me, is what a good session does. And there are many talented musicians who go on stage with the same feel--no guile, no audience manipulation, just their own love of the music and the charisma that bestows.
Can't remember where I read it, but I've always liked this one: "People respond with passion to what is done with passion."
Sorry LKlig, You clearly stated on this forum your real name, otherwise how would I know?
I dont play to impress will, that just happens automatically i just do my thing.
The discussion was simply to discuss a technique of performance, This idea came from a real life occasion where It felt right, not to impress but to avoid alienating a crowd. who were unused to this form of music, not to lose a crowd by playing beyond their comfort zone.
I mean not flicking their 'showoff' button, which can easily happen with a highly sophisticated art form performed for relatively ignorant punters. Ok you might say who am I to judge what a crowd or individuals might consider 'a display to impress' as opposed to a simple natural expression. Well after 3 decades of playing for live audiences around the world i figure I have a fair idea. Perhaps I am wrong but all the evidence I have seen indicates to the contrary.
Of course different cultures have different concepts of what is right. At this occasion I was playing for a mostly Spanish and German audience. How , if at all, do you tailor your set and performance for different nationalities?
This haggling is getting silly and boring. If you twos insist on fighting, at least make it entertaining. Prize fighting has a place in showmanship, (or should that be the other way around ? don't really care...)
If anyone else is shuffling in their seats and thinking of going home early, here's something to read in the interval
Well, I'm still waiting to find anybody who knows jig in Clare or anyone who's seen him play 'for live audiences around the world' for the last three decades.
"I don't play to impress, that just happens automatically." In that case, why don't you impress us with some examples of your automatically-impressive playing? If you can spare a minute from exhibiting your highly sophisticated art-form to relatively ignorant punters, that is. Ignorant punters, eh? Ignorant about what? I'm surprised you came away with all your teeth still intact. You've actually excelled yourself with this patronising nonsense, something I didn't think was possible.
Maybe they're all iggerant Spaniards or Germans, all shaken by this phenomenon that operated way outside their comfort zones, who would like to contribute but who can't type English.
>>bunch of folk who had probably never heard ITM.
I'd never heard of "ITM" before I hit this site. Imagine sitting at a session in the west of Ireland or iKilburn or somewhere and saying "I say chaps, shan't we be playing a spot of ITM?"
He gets everything arse about face, that's why. Well, it's been a lovely day in the kindergarten and now I need to find someone to tuck me up. Jeez, who put effs and tees so close together on the keyboard...
I like the sound of that domnull.
Would you consider it Jig?
You could get the moderator to put in '...and I've been doing it for * years, so I should know' at the end of every post you make!
(* - Jig, you seem to vary the number every time you type, so this may be a critical decision on your behalf. - I'd suggest going for an average)
You could avoid hours of unnecessary typing with this auld chestnut:
"I do this ________, and if *Charlie Lennon, Paddy Canny, Frankie Gavin, Johnny Doran......etc do it, than it must be ok!!!"
* again - subtitute where you feel appropriate.
wait, I'm getting inspired....there could also be the 'www.theperformance.org/jig' page, where everything is already written and you never have to type discussions. You just hit the 'Generic Jig post' button, and wait for the replies. You could then parse certain posts that argue your point, so they don't appear, saving you from the bullies.
ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control;-)
ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Recently, while playing unaccompanied fiddle for a bunch of folk who had probably never heard ITM. [really, they exist, unbelievable i know!] I found myself minimalising the melody first time round befor reintroduceing the notes and ornaments etc slowly through the tune, which i also happened to play quite a lot of times.
I have found that this can resonate more with a generation of folk bought up n simple song melodies and catchy hooks.
I consider 'capturing' an audience an important part of a musicians craft.
....
so the discussion is about ways to capture an audience and their attention, tricks to solo playing , keeping an audience, creating a 'vibe' etc
I remember years ago Martin Hayes telling us that when he felt he was losing an audience he would 'focus'...
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Er, you mean the art and craft of showmanship ? Like, er, this kind of thing ? like, minimal ITM, but plenty of tricks that capture the audience...
http://youtube.com/watch?v=Dz9FKIIaoQU&feature=related
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Jig, there are literally millions of people, in my observation anyway, who know zilch about ITM, or what it is. I would guess that a huge proportion of the population of my own country for example (Australia) would have no knowledge whatsoever of the existence of ITM. The next level 'up' seems to think it is Danny Boy (and then they start singing an excerpt in parody), saying "oh, you mean that!". They actually wouldn't have any knowledge of old music-hall "Irish" songs beyond that.
As a corollary, there are millions more who don't know that Ireland has its own language (besides English that is), and many who think that Irish 'language' means Irish accent! I have heard it said, I kid you not.
I was engaged some years back to do uilleann pipe backing for a television sports advertisement. When I went to the studio and asked to begin playing something, the studio guy cut in from behind his glass enclosure saying something like "can you not do that thingy you're doing on the pipes". Turned out he didn't want any ornamentation *whatsoever*. Nothing. Just three or four sustained notes, that's it. Not until they got that were they happy, then they said how good it was.
Ah well, easy money I guess.
'Capturing' an audience? I have always believed that ITM has a good degree of 'audience capture factor' already written in, and that the musician is the conduit. There are things that the musician can do to aid and abet that process, but in my observation, for a 'non-technical' ITM audience, ornamentation and tricks to solo playing as examples, don't do it.
Many people not conversant with ITM at all, in my observation, even think that ITM "sounds all the same". Musicians and ITM enthusiasts know better, but millions don't.
'Capturing an audience' (depending on the type of audience) in ITM, seems to me to be more about the 'vibe' of the tune - competently played - rather than technicalities, which seem to be lost on the 'non-ITM' audience.
Audients can listen to reel after spectacular reel, and appreciate it, but then play them Inisheer, as an example, they erupt into applause!
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I hate the whole idea of capturing an audience, actually...what I love is when the character of a person contains some kind of magic, a presence that makes an occasion special...like this old fella, just the man, the fiddle, the tune, that's all it needs.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3IAEp4cU0Qk&feature=related
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Buckethead - one of the most overated guitarists out there (along with Steve Cooney). Bumblefoot, mind, now THERES a player.
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
In ITM, I think there is very much the potential for interaction of 'character' with the music in terms of how it might be received by an audience. 'Capturing' might not be the right word, don't know, 'affecting' might be better...
Playing some particular tunes on pipes, for example, I have often felt quite apart from what is going on between the tune, the pipes and the audience, except for the fact that I was playing the tune, and *imagining* how the tune affected me, and whether it affected the audience in the same way. It invariably did.
It's a weird 'confluence of influence', for want of a better term.
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Here's the way to do it, jig
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEhBOfSNwz0&feature=related
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
http://youtube.com/watch?v=3IAEp4cU0Qk&feature=related
nice link WB. the others.... no thanks.
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
what a great old fiddle
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I'm happy to say that I shed all notions of audience and its twin brother performance many many years ago.
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I agree with you, llig. But at the same time, I've got great respect and affection for the showman tradition, I think there's something sublime about a person who can make a living doing street theatre, or Punch and Judy, and that sort of thing. I met a guy once who travelled and lived from nothing but a wooden duck puppet suspended on strings, that he'd walk along beside him, telling it to do tricks. It was so stupid, yet people loved it. But that was long ago. These days, well, check this out
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3G6iKva85M&feature=related
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
How is Buckethead overrated?!
No disagreements with you on Bumblefoot though...
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by riada
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Wow that was very cool. Good magicians are amazing.
And how is Buckethead overrated indeed? I've seen him play with Les Claypool in a club in San Francisco and he seemed pretty damn talented to me.
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Yeah, well perhaps it's mostly in my imagined romantic history, or maybe it's the way it happened, but I think of those folks who left Rajahstan, probably because of drought, or war, or famine, who became the 'gypsies', as they moved slowly westwards over centuries, trying to survive amongst foreigners. They danced and sang and struggled. There's all kinds of ways to earn a bit of money, selling lucky charms, telling fortunes, playing music, making jewellery, doing tricks that entertain folks. Such people are almost always looked down on, as the bottom end of the social hierarchy. But in my scale of values, a guy who can use a painted wooden duck, that costs a few pence to make, articulated with string, to pull a crowd and have them squealing with pleasure and parting with money, well, it's an awesome achievement....(and none of the crap and hassle that goes with running a formulaic stadium megastar roadshow. )
# Posted on May 4th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I suppose we could get people interested in classical by playing simplified, stripped-down versions of the big tunes before introducing them to the hard reality of the full-blown versions. Dum dum dum dum dum dum dum, dum dum dum dum duum-de-dum, sort of style. Without the tough harmony of course. People are so stupid. They must have their art fed to them in dribs and drabs, never the whole, which would only give them indigestion.
In other words, I think it's a crap idea. Play the stuff like you always play the stuff. If they listen they listen. If they don't listen it's their funeral and it don't matter a jot. It matters even less than a jot whether you "capture" 'em or not. They can all sod off for all I care.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
That must be called dumming it down, Steve, eh?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Ah steve, i never play the same tune the same way twice.... so your comment makes no sense.unless, of course you just repeat yourself over and over and presume others do also?
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
No I don't, but you repeatedly make an eejit of yourself by saying stupid things like that. Go away.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Oh yes sir right away....duh..
Perhaps for an amature such as yourself steve it doesnt matter a whit whether people want to listen or just find your stuff dull. However as a pro it certainly does. now go away yourself.
I forgot that i prefer not to indulge you in your favourite game of sh1t stirring. yawn..
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Sound clips please.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
no wolfbird i dont mean showmanship, rather sensitivity to the vibe, feeling reactions etc of the people round you, musicians included. rather than just ignoring them, and doing your own thing without reference to others but actively moment by moment being aware of the crowd and musicians and their reactions and even pre-empting them.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
SOUND BLOODY CLIPS please. p*ss or get off the pot, Mr Professional.
# Posted on May 5th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
There's a few different things going on there, jig. There's the crowd, large or small, who are likely all strangers. There's fellow musicians, who you probably know, and need to stay connected with. And then there's your own feelings. And it depends if you're the front man, the centre of attention, or a backer in the background.
And when you start playing, it all changes and you have to surf the changes. There's a structure to the thing, through time. If you want to pull people in, then you need to get their attention with something at the start. And you want to end with a climax, so they want more. Because if everyone just carries on talking and drinking or walking past, as if there is no entertainer, or if they are really bored and boo at the end, you have not provided what they want. (I'm talking about showmanship, not sessions in a pub).
Maybe it's a bit esoteric for this site, but I use tantien (Chinese) or tanden (Japanese) or hara, to keep control over my own feelings and to feel the vibe coming from others. It's a bit like a valve, you can open or close. I'm not a natural show off, so being the centre of attention of a lot of people used to make me very nervous, so I had to learn to do it. Some people never have that problem, they naturally love the buzz and hate when it stops. Mostly, an audience wants to hear something nice, so they can get off on it, so you give 'em a nice rhythm so they start to respond and then off it goes. I usually tried to shut out as much as I could and concentrate on my playing. Don't know if that's what you wanted to discuss ?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
What are you on about steve? Are you suggesting that people should not post here unless they show there credentials? Thats not the way it goes..... when, and if I chose, I will do so.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Thats great wolfbird... very relevant and interesting, well put.
I ve been gigging since I was 14 so It comes naturally to me. I actually like to play background music as well, where the focus is on their dinner and conversation, but here again I would be tailoring my 'performance' to the vibe. using that same sensitivity you describe re; Hara.
''There's the crowd, large or small, who are likely all strangers. There's fellow musicians, who you probably know, and need to stay connected with.''
funny , quite often for me its the other way round, I will be playing with strangers in front of a crowd of friends! and of course playing with strangers in front of a crowd of strangers.
But DD this is not dumming down , quite the opposite, it is using all the options available, allowing my nature to be present in my music, sure I might avoid displays of technical virtuosity at first, the opposite in fact , I might intentionally play in a rough style to lower expectations so that when I pull out the stops it blows their minds. gently insinuating myself into the atmosphere rather than pushing my way in.
technical virtuosity is all very well but it is not everything, rather one aspect of a performance...... I just wondered whether other people did this at all, and perhaps my experiance might help others who struggle to deal with a crowd.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Aha. So you don't have any then. That's what I'm on about. You can't choose to because you don't have any. You're all airy-fairy theory, mate. The only professional credentials you've ever told us about are your lessons teaching scales. You know, I'd love you to prove me wrong. Sound clips would do it. Make your day, why don't you. Make me eat sh!t!
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
(Wow, I didn't think it would take this long for another thread to top the "Question for Will CPT" thread. Well done chaps!)
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Thinking about it, and that hara thing....there's teachings out of qi gong, (or whatever the correct name is), that you aim to have roughly 60 percent attention focussed inside, 40 percent outside.
I practice this stuff all day every day, 'every minute zen', and if I had to do what you do, go to a strange place with strange people, that'd be quite unusual and stressful for me these days. What I do in those sort of circumstances - like, if I had to go into a high power meeting or give a talk - I put all attention into the soles of my feet, so I'm glued to the planet and can't be pushed off balance. That's as I'm entering the experience. Then I shift, less of the feet, more of the hara, and monitoring the info my mind is throwing up as it reads the situation. Once past the entering and beginning, things usually relax.
If I'm playing music, like I said, I try to give that about eighty percent attention, because I'm always afraid of a mistake that'll mess it up...I guess that's a bit like an actor, forgetting their lines. Then, there's an art to avoiding panic and recovering fast so things don't get worse. I mean, this is quite personal stuff, everybody's different. I don't think there's fixed rules or anything like that. Just tips and tricks for particular circumstances. There's plenty of ways *not* to do it. I mean, if you're playing to people who are eating, and intrude into their space crudely and uninvited, they're not going to like it.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Wow, what a novel thought. Start with the basic theme, and then repeat it with increasing amounts of embelishment and variation. Why hasn't anyone ever thought of that before now?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
You can always tell when Steve is off his meds again.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Ron Foreman
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
He's so great at criticising other people's playing whether in your thread or this one, and whether he's heard them or not, but he refuses to demonstrate his own talents, if he has any. You wouldn't buy a bloody used car off him, would you. All I'm asking is that he proves that he can actually play an instrument. Not difficult I would have thought, and I won't dream of commenting on his playing until I've heard it. It's the least we can expect from a bloke who sets himself up as something of a forum elder.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Good point, Steve, Jig could be a classical musician in disguise, like that nefarious Will CPT character!
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Actually as you know that is standard practice amongst many musicians. What I found myself doing was actually not playing notes from the tune , not just avoiding ornaments but reducing the tune down to its very basic form, and beyond.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Actually..... I should avoid repeating the same word ... my bad
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
"Reducing the tune to its very basic form, and beyond." What the hell does that mean. Don't try to tell me, jig. I want to go to bed in a minute, savouring the sheer inanity of that sentence. Who needs meds.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
You probably wouldnt understand anyhow steve....
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Absolutely right, old chap, I don't. You were playing a tune but not playing notes from the tune and you were reducing the tune to beyond its very basic form. Such clarity. I'd love to be in one of your lessons.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
No I wouldn't.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I like that idea. Strip away everything that's not essential, so only the skeleton of the tune is left. Then take it past that point, leaving just a few notes, and play with that boundary, the threshold, where the mind struggles to reinsert recognition. I think it's fascinating how that happens. Some people have amazing sensitivity for pop music. Just a fraction of a second in, and they recognize the record. I think it's fun and interesting to play with a melody line, it deepens one's understanding.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
''... i like this idea; ''I put all attention into the soles of my feet, so I'm glued to the planet and can't be pushed off balance. That's as I'm entering the experience.''
I will give it a go...
Yeah, I mean we are so used to putting more stuff into the tunes, ornaments etc, I like the idea of taking stuff out... At what point , i wonder lightheartedly, does a tune become 'not a tune' ?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I must say that if I was part of an audience and the performer was avoiding displays of technical virtuosity, but only at first, with the hope that my expectations were lowered ... and then he pulled out the stops in the hope that it blew mind, I'd be flabbergasted at the man's utter disrespect for me.
And I'd astounded to learn that he thought that performing came naturally to him. I'd be more inclined to believe that his true nature was present in his music.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Are you the Micheal gill from Edinburgh who also plays bazouki and double bass ?
Re your post, you of all people complain about disrespect! talk about pots and kettles!
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I havn't played the bazouki for 15 years, since it broke. Shame, it was a good bazouki, but I don't really miss it. I occasionally twonk a string bass (not mine) in the pub for a laugh, though I'm not very good. Also, I can't play it for more than a set or two, it butchers your fingers.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
And Wash Evets is Steve Shaw from near Bude in Cornwall ... as is open and freely available.
And you sir?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
And let us both get banned again when Jeremy reads this. I consider getting myself banned as a small price to pay for getting you banned also.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Michael even reveals that I'm near Bude and not in it. And I have sound clips up. You don't, at least not in any guise I could recognise, in spite of multifarious requests. Several people have sent me offlist messages to say that Michael is a superb player. I don't tell him because I don't want it going to his head. I can take it from anybody whom I know is a great player. That's one way of earning respect around here. Actually, Michael, so that I can bend over backwards to support you against this charlatan I should point out that it's Wahs. Any other reverse spelling simply doesn't wash.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
but Wash Evets is funnier
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
kindergarten again?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I like it. It sort of relates me to Eivets Rednow, that great harmonica player. We may be in the kindergarten but it's better than being in your kindergarten where we'd be practising scales all day instead of having all this fun.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
No jig, I'm serious here. The reason my moniker is reversed is because I don't want my name to be googled so easily. Now it is. You have no respect. I do not hide who I am, the information is freely available.
It would appear that your true nature is present in your postings here as well as, probably, your music. (though it seems we'll never know for sure)
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Llig, you make no sense , either you dont hide your identity, or you do. you cant have it both ways.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9424/comments#comment200209
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/4997/comments#comment104928
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/3674/comments#comment74026
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/5608/comments#comment118945
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15548/comments#comment322194
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/5210/comments#comment109797
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1754/comments#comment30912
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/692/comments#comment10183
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/5304/comments#comment111678
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6812/comments#comment145417
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/14322/comments#comment295322
etc etc etc
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
you're stark raving bonkers. The sooner Jeremy picks this up the better
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
anyway, what would you think if you were part of an audience and the performer was avoiding displays of technical virtuosity, but only at first, with the hope that your expectations were lowered ... and then he pulled out the stops in the hope that it blew your mind?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Ahh Llig, just to humour you, I did'nt say that I hoped it would minds. you did.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
correction ;>> did'nt say that I hoped it would blow their minds. you did.>>
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
"I might intentionally play in a rough style to lower expectations so that when I pull out the stops it blows their minds"
??
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
exactly. no hope involved, decades of practical experiance.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Actually, I hope he doesn't delete this.
It's the best thing I've read all day.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Why would he anyhow?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Oh I get it, I apologise, I did you a disservice. You don't "hope" to blow the audience's mind. you "know" you'll blow the audience's mind.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
The phrase reductio ad absurdum comes to mind when I think of this discussion. And it was rather absurd to begin with. Quick, someone jump in and abuse a scientific theory by using it as an analogy (which has been occurring far to often lately on this site), and try to explain what lies beyond absurdity......
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
On the other hand this is way better reading than the undergraduate essays I'm supposed to be grading.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Al said it above--paring down to the minimum melody and then layering in more each time around is a time honored part of this tradition. Nothing new in that idea, nor in the realization that it creates interest for anyone within ear shot. Of course, not everyone uses this approach.
Some contemporary players are pushing the envelope of how far they can strip a tune down and not violate local indecency laws. Martin Hayes comes to mind, but I don't really consider him a minimalist. Laura Risk, at least on some of her recordings, certainly bares the melody's bones.
I'm not at all sure, but the original post seems to be happily wondering about the sort of reverie a musician can enter when playing this music, and the joys of infecting anyone listening with that same reverie. Doing that with forethought and intent is what showmanship is all about. But we can also be less deliberate about it--just be ourselves with the music and give others an opportunity to join us. That, to me, is what a good session does. And there are many talented musicians who go on stage with the same feel--no guile, no audience manipulation, just their own love of the music and the charisma that bestows.
Can't remember where I read it, but I've always liked this one: "People respond with passion to what is done with passion."
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Yep, and if someone is passionately out to blow my mind, I'll take a passionate dislike to them
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Sorry, I'll rephrase that:
If someone passionately believes their performance will blow my mind, I'll take a passionate dislike to them.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Sorry, thats news? we have already taken a passionate dislike to each other Llig. just one more straw on the camels back eh?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
You gonna apologise for writing llig leahcim the right way round though?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
In an interview once, Martin Hayes said something along the lines of: "The more a musician tries to impress me, the less likely I am to be impressed."
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Sorry LKlig, You clearly stated on this forum your real name, otherwise how would I know?
I dont play to impress will, that just happens automatically
i just do my thing.
The discussion was simply to discuss a technique of performance, This idea came from a real life occasion where It felt right, not to impress but to avoid alienating a crowd. who were unused to this form of music, not to lose a crowd by playing beyond their comfort zone.
I mean not flicking their 'showoff' button, which can easily happen with a highly sophisticated art form performed for relatively ignorant punters. Ok you might say who am I to judge what a crowd or individuals might consider 'a display to impress' as opposed to a simple natural expression. Well after 3 decades of playing for live audiences around the world i figure I have a fair idea. Perhaps I am wrong but all the evidence I have seen indicates to the contrary.
Of course different cultures have different concepts of what is right. At this occasion I was playing for a mostly Spanish and German audience. How , if at all, do you tailor your set and performance for different nationalities?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Who is like God ?
http://www.isthisyour.name/michael_gill.htm
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
This haggling is getting silly and boring. If you twos insist on fighting, at least make it entertaining. Prize fighting has a place in showmanship, (or should that be the other way around ? don't really care...)
If anyone else is shuffling in their seats and thinking of going home early, here's something to read in the interval
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/2962
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Well, I'm still waiting to find anybody who knows jig in Clare or anyone who's seen him play 'for live audiences around the world' for the last three decades.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
My Martin Hayes quote wasn't directed at you, jig. Though I understand why you thought it was.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
"I don't play to impress, that just happens automatically." In that case, why don't you impress us with some examples of your automatically-impressive playing? If you can spare a minute from exhibiting your highly sophisticated art-form to relatively ignorant punters, that is. Ignorant punters, eh? Ignorant about what? I'm surprised you came away with all your teeth still intact. You've actually excelled yourself with this patronising nonsense, something I didn't think was possible.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
You'd think there'd be at least someone to corroborate eh? Someone ... out of three decades worth of audiences who've been automatically impressed?
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Maybe they're all iggerant Spaniards or Germans, all shaken by this phenomenon that operated way outside their comfort zones, who would like to contribute but who can't type English.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Jig wrote 'How , if at all, do you tailor your set and performance for different nationalities?'
How, if at all, do you tailor your set for audiences in Clare? We're still waiting to hear.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
>>bunch of folk who had probably never heard ITM.
I'd never heard of "ITM" before I hit this site. Imagine sitting at a session in the west of Ireland or iKilburn or somewhere and saying "I say chaps, shan't we be playing a spot of ITM?"
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Me neither Key. Here we play trad.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by jig
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
'Me neither Key'.
Jig's so spot on with first names.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Not so, Geoff. A little way up the thread he was talking about Micheal gill. Thus.
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Irony, Steve, irony!
# Posted on May 6th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I know. Just thought I'd mention it.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I liked the way he said, "You clearly stated on this forum your real name, otherwise how would I know?"
It's brilliant isn't it. He knows me as llig leahcim but he had to do a search for it the right way round just to make sure I was the same guy.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
He gets everything arse about face, that's why. Well, it's been a lovely day in the kindergarten and now I need to find someone to tuck me up. Jeez, who put effs and tees so close together on the keyboard...
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Someone should set up a new website calles "theperformance.org" for threads like this, for that's what it's becoming
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by domnull
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
"called"
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by domnull
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
We've either subdued him for a few hours or else he's away getting his sound-clips ready. I'm not holding my breath.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
I like the sound of that domnull.
Would you consider it Jig?
You could get the moderator to put in '...and I've been doing it for * years, so I should know' at the end of every post you make!
(* - Jig, you seem to vary the number every time you type, so this may be a critical decision on your behalf. - I'd suggest going for an average)
You could avoid hours of unnecessary typing with this auld chestnut:
"I do this ________, and if *Charlie Lennon, Paddy Canny, Frankie Gavin, Johnny Doran......etc do it, than it must be ok!!!"
* again - subtitute where you feel appropriate.
wait, I'm getting inspired....there could also be the 'www.theperformance.org/jig' page, where everything is already written and you never have to type discussions. You just hit the 'Generic Jig post' button, and wait for the replies. You could then parse certain posts that argue your point, so they don't appear, saving you from the bullies.
Just a thought.
# Posted on May 7th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: ahem... minimilism in ITM and crowd control
Jig, you seem to vary the number every time you type, so this may be a critical decision on your behalf. - I'd suggest going for an average)
Ah ,no i dont. get your facts right hugo.
# Posted on May 11th 2008 by jig