Musicians share tunes, but “traditions” claim much as their own. “Pachabel’s Frolics” (Irish) was likely pirated from “Kohler’s Hornpipe” (Scottish), which was likely pirated from parts of “Pachabel’s Canon” (German). Other examples - Dogs Among the Bushes (Irish) from Athole Brose (Scottish) and , hey... is that a Jolly Roger flying over your foredeck? What tunes in your ITM swag bag came from farther afield, disguised to belie their true origin?
Atholl Highlanders March
The Shasken Clog (H/pipe)
Nearly ALL of James Hill's compositions, incl. The Scholar Hornpipe,
millions of Scottish tunes, now resident in the Donegal tradition...
...and English tunes in the Irish and Scottish tradition...including the Bluebell Polka....
the very concept of a mazurka...
and so on....
All the odds and sods some of us are queuing up to stuff into the Tunes section right now, and I must include myself in this murky crocodile. In about 200 years their haloes will be burnished, their distinguishing features altered, and they will be quintessentially Irish; only the odd scarred hard drive rusting in landfill will give a clue about their real provenance, and their relentless pursuit by The Session's tune fishermen in unheard-of crannies of the tune ocean, once the home waters had been fished out.
Look at these two - jim,,,,
X:469
T:Caber Feigh
T:Cabar Feidh
T:Caper Fey
B:Kerr's Merry Melodies Bk.1 (c1870s)
Z:Nigel Gatherer
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:C
G | c2 ed c2 GB | c2 GF ECCA | defe d2 A^c | d2 AG FDDB |
c2 ed c2 GB | c2 GF ECCE | DEFG ABcA | d2 AG FDD ||
f | ecgc acgc | ecgc ecce | fdad bdad | fgag fddf |
ecgc acgc | GAcd eccg | afge fde^c | d2 AG FDD |]
X:1533
T:Rakish Paddy
T:paidin an racaire.
R:reel
N: "collected from Delaney"
B:"O'Neill's Dance Music of Ireland, 1533"
Z: Most of the c's are usually played as c naturals these days.
Z: transcribed by John B. Walsh, walsh@math.ubc.ca 8/23/96
M:C|
L:1/8
K:D
T(cBc).d cBAB|cAGF EFGc|Ad{e}dc defe|dcAG FGAB|
cedB cBAB|cAGF EDCE|DEFG ABce|dcAG FD D2||
eg"~"g2 agfg|efgf ec "~"c2|ea "#~"a2 b^gag|eaag ((3efg) dg|
eg "~"g2 agfg|efge defg|afge fdec|dcAG FD D2||
What I would like to know is how come the Scottish camp seem to claim to hold the origin for countless 'Irish' tunes, yet there seems to be no traffic the other way. It seems hardly possible that the music all went only one way.
When I am arguing with Scots over this I resort to the feeble but believable argument that the scots wrote the tunes down earlier and kept these written records but the tunes were already being played in Ireland for years beforehand without any transcriptions to serve as evidence of prior existence!!
Isn't it the folklore that jigs are more Irish and reels were more Scottish? What does the Scottish camp say about jigs, or are they referring to reels, or don't make any differentiation at all.
"It seems hardly possible that the music all went only one way."
Once the Scots got to Ireland and saw all that gentle, rolling terrain, they couldn't face the wild, craggy peaks of Scotland anymore.
But there is a lot of similarity between the fiddle styles of Donegal and Western Scotland. We talk of Donegal music as being 'Scottish influenced', but what about the other way round? Might some of the shared repertoire not be Irish in origin?
If a song called "Caledonia"* almost creeps in under the wire as both Irish and Traditional, is it any wonder that so many Scottish tunes are included in ITM!? To be fair, it must have happened in both directions. Why worry - we're fortunate to have maintained relatively lively traditional cultures (?) when we see what has happened in much larger countries nearby and elsewhere.
*see slightly more recent thread
I’m not generally a fan of the music of Scott Skinner’s, but there is one of his tunes, a march called “Robert The Bruce” which is a great piece of music. I have never, ever heard a Scottish fiddler play it, anywhere. I first heard it played by Dermot McLaughlin and Dermot Byrne in Edinburgh, I think 1986. It has been recorded by Liz Carroll and Billy McComiskie in “Trian”, and also more recently by Harry Bradley. The point is this – Harry says on his sleeve notes something along the lines of “Robert The Bruce” being a tune which has come over from Scotland to Ireland, and “gone it’s own way”. I’m teaching my flute class “The Cameron Highlanders” at the moment – that’s another example, and I know for a fact that it was Jenny Clark from Aberdeen who gave that tune to Kieran Hanrahan, who then went on to record it with “Stockton’s Wing”, Since then it has “gone it’s own way” too, in Ireland.
The only Irish tunes which has “gone their own way” in Scottish music that I can think of are some which have been turned into Highland bagpipe tunes, not always successfully in my opinion. There are 4-part pipe settings of “Paddy O’Rafferty”, “The Rakes Of Kildare”, “The Geese In The Bog”, Donald McLeod took the “Blackberry Blossom”, changed the key, and added 2 parts to give “Roddy McDonald’s Fancy”. If you go to the World Pipe Band Championships, you’ll almost certainly hear some tunes from the “Bothy Band” recordings, such as “The Kesh” or “Give Us A Drink Of Water”. Pipers also have a version of “The Gold Ring”, but really , a lot of these tunes suffer from being pushed into a 9-note straitjacket. So it's not all one-way traffic.
How about a "Skull and Crossbones" reel/jig where the aim is to see how many pirated tunes could be incorporated into one tune. If I had something worthwhile to offer I would offer a prize!
Please distinguish between pirates and the oft-described "folk process".......
Just found a link between an old sea-chanty and a old-timey tune; couldn't have made it up, but it's there.
There be pirates...
There be pirates...
Musicians share tunes, but “traditions” claim much as their own. “Pachabel’s Frolics” (Irish) was likely pirated from “Kohler’s Hornpipe” (Scottish), which was likely pirated from parts of “Pachabel’s Canon” (German). Other examples - Dogs Among the Bushes (Irish) from Athole Brose (Scottish) and , hey... is that a Jolly Roger flying over your foredeck? What tunes in your ITM swag bag came from farther afield, disguised to belie their true origin?
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by drone
Re: There be pirates...
Graf Spee (Irish reel) from Rothiemuchus Rant (Scottish strathspey).
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by drone
Re: There be pirates...
Where to start?
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: There be pirates...
Atholl Highlanders March
The Shasken Clog (H/pipe)
Nearly ALL of James Hill's compositions, incl. The Scholar Hornpipe,
millions of Scottish tunes, now resident in the Donegal tradition...
...and English tunes in the Irish and Scottish tradition...including the Bluebell Polka....
the very concept of a mazurka...
and so on....
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: There be pirates...
All the odds and sods some of us are queuing up to stuff into the Tunes section right now, and I must include myself in this murky crocodile. In about 200 years their haloes will be burnished, their distinguishing features altered, and they will be quintessentially Irish; only the odd scarred hard drive rusting in landfill will give a clue about their real provenance, and their relentless pursuit by The Session's tune fishermen in unheard-of crannies of the tune ocean, once the home waters had been fished out.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by nicholas
Re: There be pirates...
The Irish Washerwoman from Rock My Soul In The Bosom Of Abraham. Or is it the other way around?
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by dafydd
Re: There be pirates...
Look at these two - jim,,,,
X:469
T:Caber Feigh
T:Cabar Feidh
T:Caper Fey
B:Kerr's Merry Melodies Bk.1 (c1870s)
Z:Nigel Gatherer
M:4/4
L:1/8
K:C
G | c2 ed c2 GB | c2 GF ECCA | defe d2 A^c | d2 AG FDDB |
c2 ed c2 GB | c2 GF ECCE | DEFG ABcA | d2 AG FDD ||
f | ecgc acgc | ecgc ecce | fdad bdad | fgag fddf |
ecgc acgc | GAcd eccg | afge fde^c | d2 AG FDD |]
X:1533
T:Rakish Paddy
T:paidin an racaire.
R:reel
N: "collected from Delaney"
B:"O'Neill's Dance Music of Ireland, 1533"
Z: Most of the c's are usually played as c naturals these days.
Z: transcribed by John B. Walsh, walsh@math.ubc.ca 8/23/96
M:C|
L:1/8
K:D
T(cBc).d cBAB|cAGF EFGc|Ad{e}dc defe|dcAG FGAB|
cedB cBAB|cAGF EDCE|DEFG ABce|dcAG FD D2||
eg"~"g2 agfg|efgf ec "~"c2|ea "#~"a2 b^gag|eaag ((3efg) dg|
eg "~"g2 agfg|efge defg|afge fdec|dcAG FD D2||
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: There be pirates...
dafydd-
I can't beleive I never caught that one! crazy...
howbout Pigtown Fling/Wild Horses at Stony Point
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by patrick cavanagh
Re: There be pirates...
What I would like to know is how come the Scottish camp seem to claim to hold the origin for countless 'Irish' tunes, yet there seems to be no traffic the other way. It seems hardly possible that the music all went only one way.
When I am arguing with Scots over this I resort to the feeble but believable argument that the scots wrote the tunes down earlier and kept these written records but the tunes were already being played in Ireland for years beforehand without any transcriptions to serve as evidence of prior existence!!
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by Donough
Re: There be pirates...
Isn't it the folklore that jigs are more Irish and reels were more Scottish? What does the Scottish camp say about jigs, or are they referring to reels, or don't make any differentiation at all.
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: There be pirates...
Who is 'Pachabel'?
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by benhall.1
Re: There be pirates...
Irish tunes too difficult for us Scots, Donough
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by Kenny
Re: There be pirates...
"It seems hardly possible that the music all went only one way."
Once the Scots got to Ireland and saw all that gentle, rolling terrain, they couldn't face the wild, craggy peaks of Scotland anymore.
But there is a lot of similarity between the fiddle styles of Donegal and Western Scotland. We talk of Donegal music as being 'Scottish influenced', but what about the other way round? Might some of the shared repertoire not be Irish in origin?
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by granama
Re: There be pirates...
If a song called "Caledonia"* almost creeps in under the wire as both Irish and Traditional, is it any wonder that so many Scottish tunes are included in ITM!? To be fair, it must have happened in both directions. Why worry - we're fortunate to have maintained relatively lively traditional cultures (?) when we see what has happened in much larger countries nearby and elsewhere.
*see slightly more recent thread
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by SYcove
Re: There be pirates...
Re Rock My Soul etc. Here is a clip
http://www.walkingoliver.com/store_folder/Walking_Oliver/
Clips/rock_a_my_soul.mp3
The first part of the song is surely The Irish Washerwoman?
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by dafydd
Re: There be pirates...
William McGonagall was Irish!
Well, sort of: the father of Scotland And The World's Worst Poet was an Irish cotton-weaver. The things you read in the paper...
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by nicholas
Re: There be pirates...
I’m not generally a fan of the music of Scott Skinner’s, but there is one of his tunes, a march called “Robert The Bruce” which is a great piece of music. I have never, ever heard a Scottish fiddler play it, anywhere. I first heard it played by Dermot McLaughlin and Dermot Byrne in Edinburgh, I think 1986. It has been recorded by Liz Carroll and Billy McComiskie in “Trian”, and also more recently by Harry Bradley. The point is this – Harry says on his sleeve notes something along the lines of “Robert The Bruce” being a tune which has come over from Scotland to Ireland, and “gone it’s own way”. I’m teaching my flute class “The Cameron Highlanders” at the moment – that’s another example, and I know for a fact that it was Jenny Clark from Aberdeen who gave that tune to Kieran Hanrahan, who then went on to record it with “Stockton’s Wing”, Since then it has “gone it’s own way” too, in Ireland.
The only Irish tunes which has “gone their own way” in Scottish music that I can think of are some which have been turned into Highland bagpipe tunes, not always successfully in my opinion. There are 4-part pipe settings of “Paddy O’Rafferty”, “The Rakes Of Kildare”, “The Geese In The Bog”, Donald McLeod took the “Blackberry Blossom”, changed the key, and added 2 parts to give “Roddy McDonald’s Fancy”. If you go to the World Pipe Band Championships, you’ll almost certainly hear some tunes from the “Bothy Band” recordings, such as “The Kesh” or “Give Us A Drink Of Water”. Pipers also have a version of “The Gold Ring”, but really , a lot of these tunes suffer from being pushed into a 9-note straitjacket. So it's not all one-way traffic.
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by Kenny
Re: There be pirates...
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/7958
Here's one, and bejasus, I've just passed 3000 comments !
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by Kenny
Re: There be pirates...
Mind you, "Dow"s just passed 10,000 !!!
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by Kenny
Re: There be pirates...
Nothing compared to ceolachan
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: There be pirates...
How about a "Skull and Crossbones" reel/jig where the aim is to see how many pirated tunes could be incorporated into one tune. If I had something worthwhile to offer I would offer a prize!
# Posted on May 2nd 2008 by Donough
Re: There be pirates...
Please distinguish between pirates and the oft-described "folk process".......
Just found a link between an old sea-chanty and a old-timey tune; couldn't have made it up, but it's there.
# Posted on May 2nd 2008 by Guernsey Pete