Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Hi Folks,
I hope this post finds you well. I play Fingerstyle Guitar and mostly stick to ITM and Scottish tunes. Until the last month or so I've been playing tunes as fingerstyle pieces but recently I've been learning Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes, and other types of songs from a book written for fiddlers (James Morrison transcriptions).
I've been working at playing the tunes from this book as close as I can to the way a fiddler would play them and not as guitar pieces which brings me to a question regarding guitar techique. Here goes...
"how do all the finger pickers out there play fast single not lines without the benefit of a flat pick?"
When playing single note runs I've been playing down strokes with my thumbpick and upstrokes with my first finger. I learned this from watching Chet Atkins and it's working pretty well although I have a ways to go because this technique still feels ackward at times. That said I'm real curious to hear how any fingerstyle players go about playing single note lines.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Do you mean just playing the melody of the tune or a complete arrangement? I use my thumb and index finger if I'm just playing the tune and my index and middle fingers when I need my thumb to play the lower strings.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Shut up, llig.
No, really. We must be polite to newcomers to us. He's finding his own way into ITM. You're different, not to say an exception.
Of course, if he strays into a session he'll be inaudible,but that's the next thing.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Try looking up Maybelle Carter ("Wildwood Flower")'s technique or Elizabeth Cotton ("Freight Train") on the net or in American guitar finger style instruction books. Both ladies are no longer walking around with us, but their techniques have been taught quite a lot.
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Yeah, llig, listen to GP, or we'll send a dozen bodhran players up there to play tunes at your session. Then we'll send in the highland pipers to your pub, and tell the landlord you invited them.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
If you’re talking about playing a single line with no bass or harmony, I’ve seen several players do a great job alternating thumb and index finger. Some people actually do better this way than with a flatpick. You could also try alternating index and middle, like classical players. If you can work out the fingering harp-style, just use whatever fingers get the job done.
If you want to keep a bass line going, then you just need to practice playing the melody with the fingers while the thumb keeps thumping along. Start slow and practice, practice, practice…
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
yeh, the most useful technique to get is strict alternation of index and middle fingers-this is used a lot in strict classical guitar styles, and flamenco (watch some videos of Paco De Lucia to see how fast it's possible to play with this technique). However, for "celtic" stuff i would suggest using more hammer ons and pull offs, as the strict "picking every note" isn't particularly fluid sounding.
www.hakanozel.com
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
That Richard Thompson youtube vid mentioned earlier is a good example - (I actually play this exact arrangement - there is a book of his guitar transcriptions available and its in that) - probably only 25% of the notes are picked-the rest are hammers, pulloffs, bends etc. actually regardless of what the Lligs of the world say, the ability to bend notes on the guitar makes it the ideal instrument for emulating all those wierd in betweeny wails you get on the pipes.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Sorry, hakanozel, but I disagree. It's an electric guitar, not acoustic, with fantastic action and very light strings and all kinds of processing, pedals and stuff. Add a synth, and you can get any range of tone, colouration, etc. imaginable. You can probably get Uillean pipes patches. You trying to compare that with unamplified (or even amplified) acoustic guitar ? It's apples and oranges.
Also, this music is about tunes, melody. Alan Holdsworth is great, (I have all his CDs and even bought (then sold) an Alan Holdsworth sig guitar, (Carvin, if I remember ?) but he does not play melody, in the sense that Irish fiddle or pipes does.
Raymond G, if I understand his question, wants a way to imitate or mimic fiddle tunes. I don't say it's impossible, but the fundamental differences between the instruments mean that an exact match to a fiddle is impossible, because of frets, because you've only got a pluck, rather than all the many moves a bow provides, and so on.
My best advice is to choose a section of the tune, listen to what the fiddlers do with it, and then try out as many different techniques of left and right hands as are available, and find something that's an acceptable substitution for what the fiddle does. Also, Raymond could ask on Celtic Guitar Talk, if he hasn't already. There's loads of good guitarists, advice and samples.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I would add that, in my opinion, what makes it interesting when you get two different instruments playing the same thing, is the compromises between trying to play exactly the same as the other when the two instruments work in different ways and what is easy on one, as a phrase or embellishment, is difficult on the other so you have to find a way of playing, perhaps a different figure, that fits in and doesn't jar.
Consequently, an electric guitar, on stage or in the studio, can work with a fiddle, but in a session it would be anathema.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
i just mean the general sound..i assumed it went without saying that the content of the 2 was different! (I should have learnt from this site to never assume!) -to me when Paddy Keenan is off on one he sounds like a great rock guitarist-theres a particular square wave tone to the pipes that is similar to a distorted guitar.(oboe also!) And you can bend on the acoustic guitar too...
the ONLY fiddle technique not possible on the guitar, acoustic or otherwise, is the glissando, which our frets get in the way of. EVERYTHING else is achievable - rolls, 3 octave arpeggios..you can even emulate the sound of a bow with the volume control or a volume pedal. But its MUCH more fun trying to emulate the pipes...
for an acoustic guitar that emulates the pipes, listen to Pierre Bensusan's "The Last Pint". For acoustic guitar that emulates the harp, listen to Keith Hinchcliffe or Steve Baughman. For chancers trying to emulate musicians, listen to the guy with the Tanglewood who turns up at your session with 4 chords, no tunes, and cloth ears! Here we go again..
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I've been at a session with a very good Shetland guitarist who picked fiddle tunes on a solid body electric with a small amp underneath his seat.
He kept the volume just right, just under the fiddle and he added a lot more to the overall sound than some of the hackers and wheezers on more "traditional" instruments.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
And it's always a pleasure to hear a good fingerstyle guitarist close up. Sure they don't sound like a fiddle, but neither does a fiddle sound like a harp.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Do you think that Bensusan's 'The Last Pint' sounds like Uillean pipes, hakanozel ? I'm surprised. I have it ( and also most of the CDs and DVDs from Hinchliffe and Baughman ) and I think I learned it some time back. Don't think it's ever reminded me of the pipes. Don't particularly want to be controversial, but to my ears, none of those three players sound Irish. It's mostly watered down 'celtic-ish'. Pleasant, clever, skillful, but not Irish. IMO, acoustic guitarists who do sound Irish are on 'Masters of Irish Guitar' and Donal Clancy and a few others.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I hadn’t noticed that you’re already pursuing the thumb/index technique. How long have you been at it? A friend of mine took it up after playing with a flatpick for thirty years and, after several weeks of daily practice, he was playing faster than he could with the flatpick. But he’s a bluegrass player, so he doesn’t deal with jigs, hornpipes or polkas. Ultimately, flatpick is likely to work better for those rhythms.
With the thumb/index approach, you sacrifice a little bit of volume and triplets can be tough. It seems to work best with fingerpicks.
If you really want to play single-line tunes, you might want to give the flatpick a go. If you’re never tried it, give it a few months before you decide. If you decide to go for it, it might take a year or so to get up to speed.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
he uses some ornamentation that is more typical of pipes than other instruments-crans etc. i learnt and perform that piece - its in DADGAD and Pierre Bensusan is IMO THE 1 out of 1000 DADGAD guitarist who actually takes full advantage of that tuning..rather than using it as an easy way to drone (on and on..). Actually maybe thats a better way to put-he emulates the bends, wails, crans etc of the pipes and 99% of guitarists emulate the low D drone!
the other guys can sound "harpish" because they use tunings etc that allow for sustained notes to overlap..an example would be instead of playing eg the notes G,A,B one after the other like a fiddle or banjo or box player would, they will play them on different strings and allow them to ring..so u get this nice kind of "halo".and if u capo at the 7th fret it REALLY sounds harp like!
its interesting u call them "watered down"..maybe if they had names like O'Bensusan and came from Kinsale they would magically transform into "authentic" talents to your ears?..is not a profound love of Irish music expressed through years of dedication and practice not enough? Should us foreigners even be allowed on this site?
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
oh btw Ive seen Pierre Bensusan in concert a few times and he uses the Thumb/Index finger thing quite a bit, along with more "orthodox" classical guitar techniques. Also check out the Country guitarist Scotty Anderson who uses this technique insanely fast- and actually plays fast triplets with it too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x0yTt7LJ0o&feature=related
about 1 minute in..
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
hakonozal, well, those two clips you posted may well not be a million miles away from each other ... if you are standing seven hundred and fifty million miles away from both of them ... as you so obviosly are.
You think you can play crans and rolls on a guitar? You are simply ignorant, that's all
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
that reply was about 750 million miles away from the polite, friendly, honest respect that the lifelong players of ITM down here in West Kerry have accorded me after having met me and played with me. When ITM players whose names are known throughout Ireland have complimented me on my musicality, ability and understanding of the music, that means something to me. The only thing that means more to me is the friendly, polite and encouraging way they have expressed their flattery. Its possible, Llig you have nothing musical to learn from people like them. (I do). When it comes to polite discourse,openmindedness and general goodwill however, I'm afraid you are the equivalent of the the 3 chord basher that gatecrashes the session and thinks loud equals good. They may be tolerated at the session, but they are never welcome, and everyone breathes a sigh of relief when they dont turn up the following week. You, my friend, have a lot to learn.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"its interesting u call them "watered down"..maybe if they had names like O'Bensusan and came from Kinsale they would magically transform into "authentic" talents to your ears?..is not a profound love of Irish music expressed through years of dedication and practice not enough? Should us foreigners even be allowed on this site?"
Excuse me, hakanozel, but is it possible you've got some sort of chip on your shoulder or complex or something ? I expressed my opinion in a moderate fashion...I don't give any consideration to anyones nationality on this site. If you picked up anything like that in what I wrote, then you need to reappraise your own mental processes.
I've listened to Pierre Bensusan since his first recordings. I have his playing on knackered cassette tapes that I wore out from listening, and I have him on DVD at Freight and Salvage. *You* might hear Uillean pipes in his playing, but I do not. Like I said, I don't even hear anything Irish in his playing.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
to be more specific and hopefully more precise and constructive- when i say i hear the pipes in Pierre Bensusan i mean Seamus Ennis far more than Davy Spillane. In fact PB does a solo guitar rendition of Merrily Kissed The Quaker which is EXACTLY, note , bend, and roll perfect to Seamus Ennis's recording - it is so close it must have been a transcription he did. i think its on his 1st album when he was like 18 or something - i like to imagine him locked in a room on a mission to prove the guitar CAN sound like the pipes!
as regards the other thing, i didnt imply or accuse, i asked. You answered no. i think both of us were pretty polite! im only here cuz i love solo guitar and wanted to help the original guy if at all possible..!
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
i dont think they do them on the fiddle Llig but i may be wrong. I think its an ornamentation that came about from the fact that you cant technically play the same note twice on the pipes without lifting and replacing a finger-and in that gap you get another sounded note. The key issue is the interval between the main note and the "grace" note is larger than achievable in a roll - frequently a 4th or a 5th. I'm not a piper, but thats how we play them on the guitar! I'll ask one of my piper friends if you want to know more and get back to you.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
From Wikipedia:
Cran
An Uilleann piping ornament, consisting of a series of gracenotes of varying pitch over a low note, most commonly bottom D.
not much help i know! Of course, they use them in Scottish bagpipes too. In fact someone told me once that when u learn the scottish bagpipes from a "proper " teacher they teach you all the ornaments before you even do your 1st tune. dont know if thats true-anyone?
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
no but seriously, every variation of the tune, even every slighly flat note etc, he's got it down on the guitar. And i know those Seamus Ennis recordings back to front.
Matter of fact, they sound even better back to front! 1000s of new tunes right there all along!
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
well, a roll is usually between adjacent notes, isnt it? a cran has bigger intervals.
Seriously, go out and buy the book and recording package of Patsy Touhey's playing from the 20's in the US-its all explained there.
tho its quite hard to listen to him because, and interesting fact here Llig, Patsy played every c as a c sharp, regardless of the key. So his most revered recording - that of The Shaskeen-sounds downright odd! Check him out-its always good to dig back into the old masters.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Thanks very much for all the replies. The reason I posed the question is because I've been playing fingerstyle arrangements of Trad Irish and Scottish tunes... melody, bassline, counter melody, all in one pop.
Since I've gotten the Morrison transcriptions I've been trying to play just melody as close as I can to the way a fiddler would play. I'll stress that I'm trying to play AS CLOSE AS I can to a fiddler but realize that I can't necessarily duplicate it. So far it's fun yet. In some cases hammers, pulls, and bends/slurs work but inevitably I have to do some speedy alternating picking. The alternating Thumb and Index Finger technique is working out pretty well but there is a bit of a volume drop and it still feels a little ackward sometimes. I'm curious to see if maybe there are some others out there persuing something similar and would like to know what particular technique you may use (there's a lot of differrent ways to skin the same cat when it comes to technique).
BTW, before I started working at fingerstyle guitar I played with a flatpick for many years. I know it would probably be easier to just use a regular pick when playing stricktly melody but I'm genuinely to persuing fingerstyle.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
About a week ago I was thinking about all the 'celtic' fingerstyle players I've listened to, and it crossed my mind that I really didn't like the melody, bassline, counter melody so much anymore (I get these spasmodic whims from time to time, they usually pass quite harmlessly ) so I thought what about stripping all that stuff away, and just have 'linear harmony' (inspired by a Mr. Llig remark) and keep it simple,and this was the result. It's a nice approach, in a way, because I found myself listening to the spaces between the notes, instead of thinking how to be filling them up.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I almost never do any fingerstyle single line stuff, but I just picked a guitar to compare thumb/index with index/middle. I can play faster with T/I, but I get better tone and volume with I/M.
Which fingerpickers have you heard playing single line stuff, Raymond?
Are you going after the "harp effect" or a clean line with few, or no, overlapping notes?
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Llig... and others just to enlighten you a bit, Ray is quite a hot stuff player...! People at out session in NJ can't wait for him to play a tune.... he knows the music, but is looking at the book in retrospect to learn more, not a novice looking to learn music and tunes straight out of the book from nowhere instead of listening. Poor guy is just obsessed with learning as much as possible about the music.... like we all are.
That said.... being a player of mainly the thumb/index variety, for both tunes and backing, and the addition of a third finger where needed, but that index finger is pretty darned quick and I don't like to complicate things with the third unless absolutely necessary... have to say, volume is possible, great attack is possible, putting in a range of emotion is possible. A player who is at ease with their instrument will be able to do this. I use a thumpick and nails, which also helps on volume. I will do some melody as well with the thumb on the tunes, switch back and forth where convenient and where it sounds better. Or sometimes to switch gears and play the tune an octave lower on one part.
Fiddle ornaments, not to say they or an approximation of them are not possible on guitar in literally every place a fiddle does it, but the strings, the number of strings, the tuning, all can add up to making duplicating them in the same spots as a fiddle a bit awkward. I gave that thought up long ago as it interfered with my own ability to maintain the rhythm, the swing of the tune, the dance speed where desired rather than playing a listening piece, and made it sound more stilted. That could very well of course be my own limitations, maybe even having small hands makes it difficult due to some of the stretches. I would rather do ornaments where they they fit, drop the ones that don't, and focus on the attack, emotion in the tune, getting good sound, having more life in the music than I would if I were to focus too much in getting every ornament in.
But Ray is on a mission, and I heard him do some of this from the Morrison book last week, and he does it pretty well!
Ray,,,I would like to check of the action on your guitar next time we meet up, having it as low as you can go without buzzing is a great help in moving around quickly. You know... I have mine at that borderline place, and travel with the truss rod adjuster and do a little tweak one way or another depending on the room and the weather. It really helps a lot in ease of playing.
Wolfbird.... I'd almost think you were playing harp on that last link if I didn't know any better. Very haunting, very nice.
Someone said a while back over at the other site, that fingerstyle guitar in many ways is the "new harp". Where your turn comes around and people want to just listen. That said... I have to question my sanity in recently picking up harp... literally got myself wedged in doorways a couple of times carrying a harp AND guitar! Strings are wonderful things though, the more the merrier. And harp is so much like fingerstyle guitar only much easier to find the tunes.... the tricky part in a way is you gain a whole hand, that takes over the job of what the thumb was doing, and you have the right hand free for melody fully. It's a bit confusing at first. People who don't play fingerstyle guitar tunes really often don't understand just how tricky it is to both play melody and back yourself with just one hand. I think Ray does great, just looking to add more to it.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Wolfbird - I'm at work right now and the firewall is blocking me from listening to your tune. I'll logon when I get home and listen, thanks for posting it!
Bob himself - I got the alternating thumb/index technique from a Chet Atkins/Jerry Reed performance DVD. Chet played some incredibly fast single note runs using this technique.
Also, I took a workshop lesson with Tony McManus about a year ago. Iris Nevins booked him for a concert at the IAANJ in New Jersey and Tony gave the workshop before his show. He concentrated on mostly DADGAD arrangements but he did showed me a cool technique for finger picked/one note triplets (ring finger, middle, index). The thing that struck me most about his playing is that he so diverse... he can play with a flatpick, bare thumb, thumbpick and fingers. And throughout his performance he used a bunch of differrent techniques for lets say playing triplets and the song/situation dictated which technique he would use. The same went for appregios, fiddle-esque ornaments, pipe-like ornaments, harp like effects... you name it. The lesson I really learned from Tony is that it's good to know a bunch of differrent ways to "skin the same cat" (in a musical sense of cousre).
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Hey Iris,
Hows it going? Thanks for the guitar lesson prior to the session last week, I really enjoyed it and it's a pleasure to learn from you! I was practicing before I left for work today and the 1st two tunes from the Veronica's Morrison book (both are reels) are coming along and I'm building up decent control and speed... but the alternating technique still feels gawcky sometimes. BTW, how about booking Tony for another concert and of course another workshop!!!
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
P.S.
Iris,
Are you going to bring the new harp to a session one of these days soon? I don't think the stairway at the IAANJ would be to tough to navigate with it! BTW, lots of faces I haven't seen before at the last session. The girl playing accordian was excellent. Also, did you see the look on some of the faces when Amy decided to fiddle a tune in the key of E, LOL!
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I'm a fan of all this guitar (and other fretted things) music. I like and listen to it allot. Tony McManus is probably my favourite at it. He knows about space. And I liked wolfbird's tunes he posted above.
However, the caveat.
It's kind of like a genre unto itself. Separate from "proper" diddley music. Not a sub-genre that can fit under the general umbrella of what the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle do. Not worse of course, I'm not judging it, but different. Some of you pickers realise this and I'm glad. Others don't seem to.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Thanks, Michael. This begins to get interesting. The reason I came on this forum, was because I got into a discussion with Steve Baughman, when I told him that his stuff, (and Robin Bullocks, and many others - which everyone is calling celtic - ) didn't sound celtic to my ears.
I was curious why that was. Steve said it's just a label, because nobody has thought of any better name to call the style of playing. I mean, I've lived all my life in Wales, and listened to every kind of music I could find. I don't think it's a geographic thing, because musicians in San Francisco can listen to the same recordings as anyone in UK or Ireland.
Anybody remember that album Davey Graham did with Shirley Collins, using N. African type accompaniment for trad english folk songs ? Some people loved it, some people hated it. I couldn't see why anybody could reject the music on some sort of philosophical or quasi-political grounds, just because it was a mixture. Surely, middle eastern music must have come into the English tradition way back with the troubadours and crusades. Tony McManus seems to think it's okay to bring 'Goodbye pork pie hat' under the umbrella of what he does, which would seem to suggest he's not particularly 'purist'.
But now, I'm still wondering what that 'celtic' quality is. In the light of hakanozel's remarks above, I just listened to Pierre Bensusan's 'Merrily kissed the quaker'. It just doesn't sound anything like Seamus Ennis to me. Or even Irish. It's a great tune, and he plays it well. Nothing wrong with it. It's a good example of what's being called 'celtic guitar'. But it's not got that missing element that, as Llig says, makes this music "proper"... (neither has my own, IMO)
So, the reason I'm here is to try and comprehend what that quality is. Can it be pinned down at all ? How come Donal Clancy can play a tune on guitar, and it *does* sound Irish, whilst when Bensusan plays ( not to knock him, but taking hakanozels anecdote on trust, that he copied Seamus Ennis note for note ) it just doesn't sound Irish.
Is it rhythm or phrasing or timing or something vague like the feel, or what ?
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Yes, it's rhythm, phrasing, and timing. But more specifically, it's articulation. Or rather, it's specific articulations. Articulations which can be approximated and/or substituted on a guitar, but not not reproduced.
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For anyone who hasn't heard it before it's worth a click on the play button here, to hear D. Graham's take of " She moved through the fair" which he calls "She moved through the bizarre"
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I'll have to give some study to what that word, articulation, really means in this context, llig. But I also think that one can put happiness or sorrow into playing, although I don't know if it's possible to understand how that works, other than feeling it as you play. There are so many singers who have technical perfection but song remains empty and sterile, whilst others, well, here's one of the very best
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
the anecdote about Pierre Bensusan is not something i read, it just sounds to me like he has tried to copy the articulation and phrasing of S Ennis's recording.
i guess the whole question of what sounds "Irish" is an interesting one. but to me the issue is there are so many DIFFERENT quintessential sounds - one for me is the particular timbre of solo pipes, which is the sound that always appealed to me the most. Its the sound that makes me think of "The cold wild field in the West" in John Spillanes memorable phrase. Some solo guitar performances (including one of Wolfbird's above) evoke that feeling for me, and so they "pass the test", as it were, to my ears.
Maybe PBensusan doesnt SOUND Irish, but for me he EVOKES a certain "westness", a certain something that ive only experienced in Ireland and just led me to move back there after 3 yrs in Prague!
Again, to go back to my 2 vids of Paddy Keenan and Allan Holdsworth (a jazz rock guitarist) - although obviously they are stylistically 75million miles apart, the SOUL or energy or sense of searching i respond to in both seems pretty close. As artists they seem to me to be kindred spirits, in the same way as Arvo Part and Martin Hayes (and the jazz pianist Bill Evans) all seem to me to be looking for the same thing-perhaps in their case you could call it the silence behind the notes or something equally pretentious! Keenan and Hayes, though coming from the same tradition, seem very different from each other in their (perhaps unconcious) artistic visions.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I'm touched that you receive that 'cold wild field in the West' feeling from something of mine, hakanozel. Very flattering.
( I do live on a wild mountain that get's as wet and cold as anything anywhere on these islands so maybe it rubs off )
I'm beginning to see what you're talking about. It's all very well to have some sort of romantic sensibility that is triggered by a particular association. I can understand that. We've probably all got it to some degree.
An example would be the music that almost invariably gets played in documentaries or adverts for the Holy Land or Egypt, which features the evocative sound of the duduk, which is actually an Armenian instrument, and usually has no genuine association with the scenes in the pictures. (This point is a bit like the other thread, re playing accordions in Jane Austen dramas, etc.) The same phenomenon occurs with Ry Cooder's 'Paris, Texas' music, which gets used over and over as a cliche, shorthand, lazy way to set an ambience.
But there IS a subtle difference between one's personal emotional associations and the real thing.
But I do take your point, which was why I posted the D. Graham. Everything that P. Bensusan has recorded in his career has it's seeds in that one track 'She moved through the bizarre'. We all think we are playing our best effort on some particular day and tend to forget that we are within a larger social and historical procedure. Some people want to grab the edge of a tradition and stretch it into new areas, some people want to stay within the tradition and refine or augment what's already been done. As several people have argued on this site, I tend to the view that Irish music reached a point of perfection, just as some other comparable historical forms have done. Bach's music has always been exquisite just as set it down. But every year someone tries to mess with it, The Swingle Singers, or Michael J. Miles on 5 string banjo. Trying to play ITM on acoustic fingerstyle is a bit like that. Seems to me it's about extending the range, the repetoire, of the steel string acoustic. It's not about extending ITM, which is fine just the way it is, doesn't need extending.
It seemed to me, that if I wanted to play something called 'celtic guitar', including Irish, then the least I could do would be to try and understand what makes it special, even if I cannot reproduce it.
The further I've gone down that path, the more I seem to get annoyed when I hear guitarists playing tune with classic Irish names which don't sound anything like the way the original tune sounds. Davy Graham's 'She moved through the fair' is a travesty of the original, in that sense, but it's okay, because it's really a jazz guitarist exploring possibilities, and he was a pioneer, of that time. If I heard a present day 'celtic' guitarist doing that, I'd groan. For me, the challenge would be to play the simple traditional melody perfectly, without any classical or jazz or New Age or anything else creeping in.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Llig, where do you draw the boundaries of “proper diddley” melody instruments? Does it include banjo, mandolin or accordion?
From my personal point of view, the pure-drop elite would be fiddle, pipes, whistle and flute, with banjo, mandolin and accordion (maybe harmonica fits here) welcome at the table, but not really able to carry on the tradition single handedly. Guitar *can* fit in that second group, but doesn’t always blend well. Likewise for zouks and octave mandos.
Modern “Celtic” fingerstyle guitar (like wolfbird) seems much more in the harp tradition.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Hi Ray...hey the door is open for Tony any time! I would like to get a guitar night there, but do wonder what kind of draw it would be honestly, since most of our audience is melody playing session goers who are more interested in pipes, flutes and fiddles. We were even going to risk a harp event, with all day classes leading up to a concert but that fell through for this year due to scheduling, and I was worried about what kind of crowd we'd get for that as well. I'd have to really think about how to promote a guitar night too, since I have to raise all those guarantees for the performers, LOL.... or else! We do have some great local talent too, Stefan Grossman and El McMeen, Gabe Donohue, John Sheehan (mainly American but can play some Irish tunes brilliantly ),Donal Clancy. It's on the back burner.
Llig.... didn't mean to knock you personally by metioning Ray was not trying to learn from square one from a book, but wanted people to be aware he is already a very talented player with a great understanding of the instrument. I love teaching Ray some of my tricks but have also learned from watching what he does. I do ornaments strictly with the left hand, very low action which allows for precise articulation, yet I watched Ray do that Chet Atkins thing and was very pelasantly surprised how he triplets that way.
as llig says that guitar tunes are a genre unto itself, is really true. They are primarily listening pieces, as a harp piece might be. Hard to want to get up and dance too, though in my playing I like to focus on being able to play a tune at dance tempo, along with the other melody players, if possible. Often enough though, it happens you kick off a tune and people join in and the speed is hijacked, so it's good to be able to keep up. Sometimes it's hard, this music was not laid out for guitar, and some of the reaches take a little more time (unless you are Tony Mcmanus, LOL) so sometimes we sneak and play it in the wrong key a bit slower if we really want to be "the new harp" and go solo.
Yes, Amy Beshara, a young up and coming Cape Breton fiddler from NJ, she threw those E tunes at the crew. I love when we go around and someone brings in some new tunes. Those were real "throw the guitar player tunes".... they will be on the next session CD, but there is a way to deal with them REAL easily, will show you next time if you want. You'll be surprised. They were lovely, haunting, powerful tunes. Played beautifully.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"where do you draw the boundaries of “proper diddley” melody instruments?"
The boundary is not a line, it's (as with most things about this music) a kind of fuzzy grey area. Fiddles, flutes, pipes, and whistles are in. Guitars are out. C/Csharp and B/C button boxes, concertinas, banjos, mandolins, moothies etc, are in the grey area.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Is there a boundary line between the 'in' area and the grey area,, and between the grey area and the 'out area? Maybe you don't need a passport from each area any more to live in one or the other. Maybe it just depends on whether you fit in as a denizen.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
If you can see where very very very light grey turns to white, you are a cleverer man that I. White is an odd one. You think something is white, until you hold up something that is whiter next too it. It doesn't happen the other way though, if you see grey, it's grey.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Dunno if it applies here, but I read a fascinating thesis (was it by Mike Seeger ?) somewhere, that the oldest, wildest Appalachian music, drawing influences from Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, Scandinavia, and elsewhere, plus African and Eastern Cherokee, was modal, and got it's character from fretless instruments, fiddle and fretless banjo, so it was easy to get perfect intonation for modal scales, and to slide a note a bit sharp or flat for effect. That original character was lost once the tunes were caged in with frets on banjos and guitars, tamed to fit equal temperament.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I meant to add that's one reason why Irish (or 'celtic') is hard on guitar. You can bend notes, but it tends to sound bluesy and wrong. You can slide notes, but you still end up with a fretted note.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
, ''concertinas, ,are in the grey area.'''!!!! Banjo?! Guitars are out?
Tell that to John Kelly,RIP, Bernard O Sullivan, Tommy McMahon, Chris Droney, Paddy Murphy, Gerald Haugh, Tom Carey, Sonny Murray, Sean O'Dwyer etc etc.
Grey area ! Feckin ejit ! sorry but really, what a load of drivel.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Iris,
If you could get Tony M or Donal Clancy to play at the IAANJ again the would be GREAT! Actually Tony and Maeve Donnelly are playing some shows in Europe to promote their new CD. I was hoping that maybe they'd play some shows on this side of the pond, particularly at the IAANJ again. Their concert really opened my eyes to all kinds of musical possibilties. I've always really hoped El would either play a show or play at a session too. His playing inspired me to put down the flatpick and take up playing fingerstyle ITM. I've corresponded with him via email on occassion but it would be nice to meet him in person.
Speaking of the IAANJ I have to say that the folks at the session are a very supportive bunch. I had chat with Veronica about some of the tunes from the James Morrison book and she gave me some good insight into some of the fiddle ornamentation... rolls in particular. We also chatted about the Porter House session and she introduced me to the gentleman who plays and makes whistles because he's a regular at the PH sessions and we also chatted for a bit (can't remember his name at the moment). Between our lesson and talking with some of the session goer's I really learned a few things. All and all it was a really good night.
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Michael:
"It's kind of like a genre unto itself. Separate from "proper" diddley music. Not a sub-genre that can fit under the general umbrella of what the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle do. Not worse of course, I'm not judging it, but different."
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Ray, that is John Sindt...whistle maker. PH is on this Sunday.
IAANJ is quite "user friendly", and the music is pretty on the ball too. Having a guest host each time really ties it together, and helps bring new tunes in as well, so hopefully it never will get too repetitive or stale.
We have Louisa Bennion, a great concertina player, coming to host 5/17. Very worth hearing! Maybe she can give you concertina tricks to adapt to guitar! Not kidding... I learn from them all, every different instrument. It even helps in accompanyment.... esp. if doing hybrid melody/backing ... I am curious to really focus on what goes on in that little black box! I was zeroed in on what that piano accordion player was doing too last time, especially during "Moving Cloud" ... that sort of back and forth from the G to F# (wow.... hope I have the tune name right, to the right tune!) in the beginning of the piece.... nice rather than to just sit on a chord, to go back and forth on the melody like like that a bit and really very easy, they live right next door to each other on the fingerboard.
Wonder if enough melody is played in the accompaniment, at what point it becomes considered more a melody instrument, LOL! And gets more accepted! Or if it will always be looked on as just old backing, not that it matters as long as it sounds nice and doesn't disrupt the tune. Ray....you have enough knowledge of the tunes to start "hybriding" a bit that way in the backing... good pianists do it.... back to my usual generally not taken seriously rant about listeneing to good piano players to get a great sense of backing.... Charlie Lennon or Felix Dolan are worth studying. Hmmm..... how would you slur on a piano though... seems more limiting than frets!
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"and it crossed my mind that I really didn't like the melody, bassline, counter melody so much anymore"
Hey wolfbird, the same thing happened to me. I would learn a tune (even by ear and not from a book!) and find I would lose something once I started to arrange it Mainly because I would have to move the notes around on the fretboard to accomodate the bass or harmony notes. I hardly ever listen to the so-called celtic guitarists (except McManus) and am sorta embarassed by the term. Really enjoy the flatpicking by Clancy and the other guitarists on Masters of Irish Guitar. Nice playing, too Wolfbird.
My introduction to Irish Music was the Kevin Burke & Michael O'Domhnaill album Promenade (just re-released on CD). Always wished I could play the single line melodies like that. Guess I should've learnt to play one of the "in" instruments in ITM! but I'm too old to change now. Anyway, my attempt to do that on guitar comes from a combination of the 1st and 2nd fingers sometimes the 3rd and lots of hammer-ons and pull-offs.
Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Hi Folks,
I hope this post finds you well. I play Fingerstyle Guitar and mostly stick to ITM and Scottish tunes. Until the last month or so I've been playing tunes as fingerstyle pieces but recently I've been learning Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes, and other types of songs from a book written for fiddlers (James Morrison transcriptions).
I've been working at playing the tunes from this book as close as I can to the way a fiddler would play them and not as guitar pieces which brings me to a question regarding guitar techique. Here goes...
"how do all the finger pickers out there play fast single not lines without the benefit of a flat pick?"
When playing single note runs I've been playing down strokes with my thumbpick and upstrokes with my first finger. I learned this from watching Chet Atkins and it's working pretty well although I have a ways to go because this technique still feels ackward at times. That said I'm real curious to hear how any fingerstyle players go about playing single note lines.
Thanks in advance!
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Do you mean just playing the melody of the tune or a complete arrangement? I use my thumb and index finger if I'm just playing the tune and my index and middle fingers when I need my thumb to play the lower strings.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by dafydd
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
" I've been learning Jigs, Reels, Hornpipes, and other types of songs from a book."
Says it all really.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Shut up, llig.
No, really. We must be polite to newcomers to us. He's finding his own way into ITM. You're different, not to say an exception.
Of course, if he strays into a session he'll be inaudible,but that's the next thing.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Try looking up Maybelle Carter ("Wildwood Flower")'s technique or Elizabeth Cotton ("Freight Train") on the net or in American guitar finger style instruction books. Both ladies are no longer walking around with us, but their techniques have been taught quite a lot.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Yeah, llig, listen to GP, or we'll send a dozen bodhran players up there to play tunes at your session. Then we'll send in the highland pipers to your pub, and tell the landlord you invited them.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I see from llig's bio that all his tunes are in his head.Well,there seems to be plenty of room in it.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by dafydd
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Check out Tony MacManus. Brilliant finger style guitarist for melody of Scottish and Irish dance tunes (and a whole bunch of other stuff).
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Don't know if this will be of any help, but I found this clip a few days ago:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=AHx8xsp8EMI
Amazing, IMO.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
If you’re talking about playing a single line with no bass or harmony, I’ve seen several players do a great job alternating thumb and index finger. Some people actually do better this way than with a flatpick. You could also try alternating index and middle, like classical players. If you can work out the fingering harp-style, just use whatever fingers get the job done.
If you want to keep a bass line going, then you just need to practice playing the melody with the fingers while the thumb keeps thumping along. Start slow and practice, practice, practice…
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
yeh, the most useful technique to get is strict alternation of index and middle fingers-this is used a lot in strict classical guitar styles, and flamenco (watch some videos of Paco De Lucia to see how fast it's possible to play with this technique). However, for "celtic" stuff i would suggest using more hammer ons and pull offs, as the strict "picking every note" isn't particularly fluid sounding.
www.hakanozel.com
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
That Richard Thompson youtube vid mentioned earlier is a good example - (I actually play this exact arrangement - there is a book of his guitar transcriptions available and its in that) - probably only 25% of the notes are picked-the rest are hammers, pulloffs, bends etc. actually regardless of what the Lligs of the world say, the ability to bend notes on the guitar makes it the ideal instrument for emulating all those wierd in betweeny wails you get on the pipes.
compare http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V-N746L7sTE
and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gVhv7Cpl_n4 (at 3mins 40 secs in after the keyboard solo)
not a million miles away from each other really...
www.hakanozel.com
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Did you notice ? Not another word from llig ( yet ).
He just needed talking to, like those other guys we've discussed in Session Etiquette forums.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Sorry, hakanozel, but I disagree. It's an electric guitar, not acoustic, with fantastic action and very light strings and all kinds of processing, pedals and stuff. Add a synth, and you can get any range of tone, colouration, etc. imaginable. You can probably get Uillean pipes patches. You trying to compare that with unamplified (or even amplified) acoustic guitar ? It's apples and oranges.
Also, this music is about tunes, melody. Alan Holdsworth is great, (I have all his CDs and even bought (then sold) an Alan Holdsworth sig guitar, (Carvin, if I remember ?) but he does not play melody, in the sense that Irish fiddle or pipes does.
Raymond G, if I understand his question, wants a way to imitate or mimic fiddle tunes. I don't say it's impossible, but the fundamental differences between the instruments mean that an exact match to a fiddle is impossible, because of frets, because you've only got a pluck, rather than all the many moves a bow provides, and so on.
My best advice is to choose a section of the tune, listen to what the fiddlers do with it, and then try out as many different techniques of left and right hands as are available, and find something that's an acceptable substitution for what the fiddle does. Also, Raymond could ask on Celtic Guitar Talk, if he hasn't already. There's loads of good guitarists, advice and samples.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I would add that, in my opinion, what makes it interesting when you get two different instruments playing the same thing, is the compromises between trying to play exactly the same as the other when the two instruments work in different ways and what is easy on one, as a phrase or embellishment, is difficult on the other so you have to find a way of playing, perhaps a different figure, that fits in and doesn't jar.
Consequently, an electric guitar, on stage or in the studio, can work with a fiddle, but in a session it would be anathema.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
i just mean the general sound..i assumed it went without saying that the content of the 2 was different! (I should have learnt from this site to never assume!) -to me when Paddy Keenan is off on one he sounds like a great rock guitarist-theres a particular square wave tone to the pipes that is similar to a distorted guitar.(oboe also!) And you can bend on the acoustic guitar too...
the ONLY fiddle technique not possible on the guitar, acoustic or otherwise, is the glissando, which our frets get in the way of. EVERYTHING else is achievable - rolls, 3 octave arpeggios..you can even emulate the sound of a bow with the volume control or a volume pedal. But its MUCH more fun trying to emulate the pipes...
for an acoustic guitar that emulates the pipes, listen to Pierre Bensusan's "The Last Pint". For acoustic guitar that emulates the harp, listen to Keith Hinchcliffe or Steve Baughman. For chancers trying to emulate musicians, listen to the guy with the Tanglewood who turns up at your session with 4 chords, no tunes, and cloth ears! Here we go again..
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I've been at a session with a very good Shetland guitarist who picked fiddle tunes on a solid body electric with a small amp underneath his seat.
He kept the volume just right, just under the fiddle and he added a lot more to the overall sound than some of the hackers and wheezers on more "traditional" instruments.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Bren
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
And it's always a pleasure to hear a good fingerstyle guitarist close up. Sure they don't sound like a fiddle, but neither does a fiddle sound like a harp.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Bren
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Do you think that Bensusan's 'The Last Pint' sounds like Uillean pipes, hakanozel ? I'm surprised. I have it ( and also most of the CDs and DVDs from Hinchliffe and Baughman ) and I think I learned it some time back. Don't think it's ever reminded me of the pipes. Don't particularly want to be controversial, but to my ears, none of those three players sound Irish. It's mostly watered down 'celtic-ish'. Pleasant, clever, skillful, but not Irish. IMO, acoustic guitarists who do sound Irish are on 'Masters of Irish Guitar' and Donal Clancy and a few others.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I hadn’t noticed that you’re already pursuing the thumb/index technique. How long have you been at it? A friend of mine took it up after playing with a flatpick for thirty years and, after several weeks of daily practice, he was playing faster than he could with the flatpick. But he’s a bluegrass player, so he doesn’t deal with jigs, hornpipes or polkas. Ultimately, flatpick is likely to work better for those rhythms.
With the thumb/index approach, you sacrifice a little bit of volume and triplets can be tough. It seems to work best with fingerpicks.
If you really want to play single-line tunes, you might want to give the flatpick a go. If you’re never tried it, give it a few months before you decide. If you decide to go for it, it might take a year or so to get up to speed.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
he uses some ornamentation that is more typical of pipes than other instruments-crans etc. i learnt and perform that piece - its in DADGAD and Pierre Bensusan is IMO THE 1 out of 1000 DADGAD guitarist who actually takes full advantage of that tuning..rather than using it as an easy way to drone (on and on..). Actually maybe thats a better way to put-he emulates the bends, wails, crans etc of the pipes and 99% of guitarists emulate the low D drone!
the other guys can sound "harpish" because they use tunings etc that allow for sustained notes to overlap..an example would be instead of playing eg the notes G,A,B one after the other like a fiddle or banjo or box player would, they will play them on different strings and allow them to ring..so u get this nice kind of "halo".and if u capo at the 7th fret it REALLY sounds harp like!
its interesting u call them "watered down"..maybe if they had names like O'Bensusan and came from Kinsale they would magically transform into "authentic" talents to your ears?..is not a profound love of Irish music expressed through years of dedication and practice not enough? Should us foreigners even be allowed on this site?
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
oh btw Ive seen Pierre Bensusan in concert a few times and he uses the Thumb/Index finger thing quite a bit, along with more "orthodox" classical guitar techniques. Also check out the Country guitarist Scotty Anderson who uses this technique insanely fast- and actually plays fast triplets with it too.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7x0yTt7LJ0o&feature=related
about 1 minute in..
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
hakonozal, well, those two clips you posted may well not be a million miles away from each other ... if you are standing seven hundred and fifty million miles away from both of them ... as you so obviosly are.
You think you can play crans and rolls on a guitar? You are simply ignorant, that's all
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
that reply was about 750 million miles away from the polite, friendly, honest respect that the lifelong players of ITM down here in West Kerry have accorded me after having met me and played with me. When ITM players whose names are known throughout Ireland have complimented me on my musicality, ability and understanding of the music, that means something to me. The only thing that means more to me is the friendly, polite and encouraging way they have expressed their flattery. Its possible, Llig you have nothing musical to learn from people like them. (I do). When it comes to polite discourse,openmindedness and general goodwill however, I'm afraid you are the equivalent of the the 3 chord basher that gatecrashes the session and thinks loud equals good. They may be tolerated at the session, but they are never welcome, and everyone breathes a sigh of relief when they dont turn up the following week. You, my friend, have a lot to learn.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"its interesting u call them "watered down"..maybe if they had names like O'Bensusan and came from Kinsale they would magically transform into "authentic" talents to your ears?..is not a profound love of Irish music expressed through years of dedication and practice not enough? Should us foreigners even be allowed on this site?"
Excuse me, hakanozel, but is it possible you've got some sort of chip on your shoulder or complex or something ? I expressed my opinion in a moderate fashion...I don't give any consideration to anyones nationality on this site. If you picked up anything like that in what I wrote, then you need to reappraise your own mental processes.
I've listened to Pierre Bensusan since his first recordings. I have his playing on knackered cassette tapes that I wore out from listening, and I have him on DVD at Freight and Salvage. *You* might hear Uillean pipes in his playing, but I do not. Like I said, I don't even hear anything Irish in his playing.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
listen for the crans. theres also a sharpening of the b7 which is authentically irish
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"listen for the crans" ha ha ha
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
to be more specific and hopefully more precise and constructive- when i say i hear the pipes in Pierre Bensusan i mean Seamus Ennis far more than Davy Spillane. In fact PB does a solo guitar rendition of Merrily Kissed The Quaker which is EXACTLY, note , bend, and roll perfect to Seamus Ennis's recording - it is so close it must have been a transcription he did. i think its on his 1st album when he was like 18 or something - i like to imagine him locked in a room on a mission to prove the guitar CAN sound like the pipes!
as regards the other thing, i didnt imply or accuse, i asked. You answered no. i think both of us were pretty polite! im only here cuz i love solo guitar and wanted to help the original guy if at all possible..!
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
back to the topic and Raymond G's enquiry. Here's an improvised mp3 where I tried to illustrate some of the various techniques I use.
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=964&Path=Illustration.mp3
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
i dont think they do them on the fiddle Llig but i may be wrong. I think its an ornamentation that came about from the fact that you cant technically play the same note twice on the pipes without lifting and replacing a finger-and in that gap you get another sounded note. The key issue is the interval between the main note and the "grace" note is larger than achievable in a roll - frequently a 4th or a 5th. I'm not a piper, but thats how we play them on the guitar! I'll ask one of my piper friends if you want to know more and get back to you.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"it is so close it must have been a transcription." ho ho tee hee bloody ho ho. Keep digin' mate
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
From Wikipedia:
Cran
An Uilleann piping ornament, consisting of a series of gracenotes of varying pitch over a low note, most commonly bottom D.
not much help i know! Of course, they use them in Scottish bagpipes too. In fact someone told me once that when u learn the scottish bagpipes from a "proper " teacher they teach you all the ornaments before you even do your 1st tune. dont know if thats true-anyone?
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"The key issue is the interval between the main note and the "grace" note is larger than achievable in a roll" Just what the feck are you on about?
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Ah ... that fountain of all knowledge ... wikipedia
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
no but seriously, every variation of the tune, even every slighly flat note etc, he's got it down on the guitar. And i know those Seamus Ennis recordings back to front.
Matter of fact, they sound even better back to front! 1000s of new tunes right there all along!
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
well, a roll is usually between adjacent notes, isnt it? a cran has bigger intervals.
Seriously, go out and buy the book and recording package of Patsy Touhey's playing from the 20's in the US-its all explained there.
tho its quite hard to listen to him because, and interesting fact here Llig, Patsy played every c as a c sharp, regardless of the key. So his most revered recording - that of The Shaskeen-sounds downright odd! Check him out-its always good to dig back into the old masters.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Point taken on wikipedia tho!
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"Dig into the old masters" ..-..i didnt realise how funny that was in a wind up on Llig until after i wrote it!
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Thanks very much for all the replies. The reason I posed the question is because I've been playing fingerstyle arrangements of Trad Irish and Scottish tunes... melody, bassline, counter melody, all in one pop.
Since I've gotten the Morrison transcriptions I've been trying to play just melody as close as I can to the way a fiddler would play. I'll stress that I'm trying to play AS CLOSE AS I can to a fiddler but realize that I can't necessarily duplicate it. So far it's fun yet. In some cases hammers, pulls, and bends/slurs work but inevitably I have to do some speedy alternating picking. The alternating Thumb and Index Finger technique is working out pretty well but there is a bit of a volume drop and it still feels a little ackward sometimes. I'm curious to see if maybe there are some others out there persuing something similar and would like to know what particular technique you may use (there's a lot of differrent ways to skin the same cat when it comes to technique).
BTW, before I started working at fingerstyle guitar I played with a flatpick for many years. I know it would probably be easier to just use a regular pick when playing stricktly melody but I'm genuinely to persuing fingerstyle.
Thanks again and please keep the replies coming.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
About a week ago I was thinking about all the 'celtic' fingerstyle players I've listened to, and it crossed my mind that I really didn't like the melody, bassline, counter melody so much anymore (I get these spasmodic whims from time to time, they usually pass quite harmlessly
) so I thought what about stripping all that stuff away, and just have 'linear harmony' (inspired by a Mr. Llig remark) and keep it simple,and this was the result. It's a nice approach, in a way, because I found myself listening to the spaces between the notes, instead of thinking how to be filling them up.
http://www.soundlantern.com/UpdatedSoundPage.do?ToId=965&Path=airs.mp3
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I almost never do any fingerstyle single line stuff, but I just picked a guitar to compare thumb/index with index/middle. I can play faster with T/I, but I get better tone and volume with I/M.
Which fingerpickers have you heard playing single line stuff, Raymond?
Are you going after the "harp effect" or a clean line with few, or no, overlapping notes?
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Llig... and others just to enlighten you a bit, Ray is quite a hot stuff player...! People at out session in NJ can't wait for him to play a tune.... he knows the music, but is looking at the book in retrospect to learn more, not a novice looking to learn music and tunes straight out of the book from nowhere instead of listening. Poor guy is just obsessed with learning as much as possible about the music.... like we all are.
That said.... being a player of mainly the thumb/index variety, for both tunes and backing, and the addition of a third finger where needed, but that index finger is pretty darned quick and I don't like to complicate things with the third unless absolutely necessary... have to say, volume is possible, great attack is possible, putting in a range of emotion is possible. A player who is at ease with their instrument will be able to do this. I use a thumpick and nails, which also helps on volume. I will do some melody as well with the thumb on the tunes, switch back and forth where convenient and where it sounds better. Or sometimes to switch gears and play the tune an octave lower on one part.
Fiddle ornaments, not to say they or an approximation of them are not possible on guitar in literally every place a fiddle does it, but the strings, the number of strings, the tuning, all can add up to making duplicating them in the same spots as a fiddle a bit awkward. I gave that thought up long ago as it interfered with my own ability to maintain the rhythm, the swing of the tune, the dance speed where desired rather than playing a listening piece, and made it sound more stilted. That could very well of course be my own limitations, maybe even having small hands makes it difficult due to some of the stretches. I would rather do ornaments where they they fit, drop the ones that don't, and focus on the attack, emotion in the tune, getting good sound, having more life in the music than I would if I were to focus too much in getting every ornament in.
But Ray is on a mission, and I heard him do some of this from the Morrison book last week, and he does it pretty well!
Ray,,,I would like to check of the action on your guitar next time we meet up, having it as low as you can go without buzzing is a great help in moving around quickly. You know... I have mine at that borderline place, and travel with the truss rod adjuster and do a little tweak one way or another depending on the room and the weather. It really helps a lot in ease of playing.
Wolfbird.... I'd almost think you were playing harp on that last link if I didn't know any better. Very haunting, very nice.
Someone said a while back over at the other site, that fingerstyle guitar in many ways is the "new harp". Where your turn comes around and people want to just listen. That said... I have to question my sanity in recently picking up harp... literally got myself wedged in doorways a couple of times carrying a harp AND guitar! Strings are wonderful things though, the more the merrier. And harp is so much like fingerstyle guitar only much easier to find the tunes.... the tricky part in a way is you gain a whole hand, that takes over the job of what the thumb was doing, and you have the right hand free for melody fully. It's a bit confusing at first. People who don't play fingerstyle guitar tunes really often don't understand just how tricky it is to both play melody and back yourself with just one hand. I think Ray does great, just looking to add more to it.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Wolfbird - I'm at work right now and the firewall is blocking me from listening to your tune. I'll logon when I get home and listen, thanks for posting it!
Bob himself - I got the alternating thumb/index technique from a Chet Atkins/Jerry Reed performance DVD. Chet played some incredibly fast single note runs using this technique.
Also, I took a workshop lesson with Tony McManus about a year ago. Iris Nevins booked him for a concert at the IAANJ in New Jersey and Tony gave the workshop before his show. He concentrated on mostly DADGAD arrangements but he did showed me a cool technique for finger picked/one note triplets (ring finger, middle, index). The thing that struck me most about his playing is that he so diverse... he can play with a flatpick, bare thumb, thumbpick and fingers. And throughout his performance he used a bunch of differrent techniques for lets say playing triplets and the song/situation dictated which technique he would use. The same went for appregios, fiddle-esque ornaments, pipe-like ornaments, harp like effects... you name it. The lesson I really learned from Tony is that it's good to know a bunch of differrent ways to "skin the same cat" (in a musical sense of cousre).
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Hey Iris,
Hows it going? Thanks for the guitar lesson prior to the session last week, I really enjoyed it and it's a pleasure to learn from you! I was practicing before I left for work today and the 1st two tunes from the Veronica's Morrison book (both are reels) are coming along and I'm building up decent control and speed... but the alternating technique still feels gawcky sometimes. BTW, how about booking Tony for another concert and of course another workshop!!!
Thanks for the encouragement and kind words.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
P.S.
Iris,
Are you going to bring the new harp to a session one of these days soon? I don't think the stairway at the IAANJ would be to tough to navigate with it! BTW, lots of faces I haven't seen before at the last session. The girl playing accordian was excellent. Also, did you see the look on some of the faces when Amy decided to fiddle a tune in the key of E, LOL!
Best regards,
Ray
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I'm a fan of all this guitar (and other fretted things) music. I like and listen to it allot. Tony McManus is probably my favourite at it. He knows about space. And I liked wolfbird's tunes he posted above.
However, the caveat.
It's kind of like a genre unto itself. Separate from "proper" diddley music. Not a sub-genre that can fit under the general umbrella of what the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle do. Not worse of course, I'm not judging it, but different. Some of you pickers realise this and I'm glad. Others don't seem to.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Thanks, Michael. This begins to get interesting. The reason I came on this forum, was because I got into a discussion with Steve Baughman, when I told him that his stuff, (and Robin Bullocks, and many others - which everyone is calling celtic - ) didn't sound celtic to my ears.
I was curious why that was. Steve said it's just a label, because nobody has thought of any better name to call the style of playing. I mean, I've lived all my life in Wales, and listened to every kind of music I could find. I don't think it's a geographic thing, because musicians in San Francisco can listen to the same recordings as anyone in UK or Ireland.
Anybody remember that album Davey Graham did with Shirley Collins, using N. African type accompaniment for trad english folk songs ? Some people loved it, some people hated it. I couldn't see why anybody could reject the music on some sort of philosophical or quasi-political grounds, just because it was a mixture. Surely, middle eastern music must have come into the English tradition way back with the troubadours and crusades. Tony McManus seems to think it's okay to bring 'Goodbye pork pie hat' under the umbrella of what he does, which would seem to suggest he's not particularly 'purist'.
But now, I'm still wondering what that 'celtic' quality is. In the light of hakanozel's remarks above, I just listened to Pierre Bensusan's 'Merrily kissed the quaker'. It just doesn't sound anything like Seamus Ennis to me. Or even Irish. It's a great tune, and he plays it well. Nothing wrong with it. It's a good example of what's being called 'celtic guitar'. But it's not got that missing element that, as Llig says, makes this music "proper"... (neither has my own, IMO)
So, the reason I'm here is to try and comprehend what that quality is. Can it be pinned down at all ? How come Donal Clancy can play a tune on guitar, and it *does* sound Irish, whilst when Bensusan plays ( not to knock him, but taking hakanozels anecdote on trust, that he copied Seamus Ennis note for note ) it just doesn't sound Irish.
Is it rhythm or phrasing or timing or something vague like the feel, or what ?
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Yes, it's rhythm, phrasing, and timing. But more specifically, it's articulation. Or rather, it's specific articulations. Articulations which can be approximated and/or substituted on a guitar, but not not reproduced.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
For anyone who hasn't heard it before it's worth a click on the play button here, to hear D. Graham's take of " She moved through the fair" which he calls "She moved through the bizarre"
http://www.daveygraham.moonfruit.com/
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
This was the album I was thinking about
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16tQ9gZI3Lo&feature=related
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I'll have to give some study to what that word, articulation, really means in this context, llig. But I also think that one can put happiness or sorrow into playing, although I don't know if it's possible to understand how that works, other than feeling it as you play. There are so many singers who have technical perfection but song remains empty and sterile, whilst others, well, here's one of the very best
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n2xODjbfYw8&NR=1
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
the anecdote about Pierre Bensusan is not something i read, it just sounds to me like he has tried to copy the articulation and phrasing of S Ennis's recording.
i guess the whole question of what sounds "Irish" is an interesting one. but to me the issue is there are so many DIFFERENT quintessential sounds - one for me is the particular timbre of solo pipes, which is the sound that always appealed to me the most. Its the sound that makes me think of "The cold wild field in the West" in John Spillanes memorable phrase. Some solo guitar performances (including one of Wolfbird's above) evoke that feeling for me, and so they "pass the test", as it were, to my ears.
Maybe PBensusan doesnt SOUND Irish, but for me he EVOKES a certain "westness", a certain something that ive only experienced in Ireland and just led me to move back there after 3 yrs in Prague!
Again, to go back to my 2 vids of Paddy Keenan and Allan Holdsworth (a jazz rock guitarist) - although obviously they are stylistically 75million miles apart, the SOUL or energy or sense of searching i respond to in both seems pretty close. As artists they seem to me to be kindred spirits, in the same way as Arvo Part and Martin Hayes (and the jazz pianist Bill Evans) all seem to me to be looking for the same thing-perhaps in their case you could call it the silence behind the notes or something equally pretentious! Keenan and Hayes, though coming from the same tradition, seem very different from each other in their (perhaps unconcious) artistic visions.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I'm touched that you receive that 'cold wild field in the West' feeling from something of mine, hakanozel. Very flattering.
( I do live on a wild mountain that get's as wet and cold as anything anywhere on these islands
so maybe it rubs off )
I'm beginning to see what you're talking about. It's all very well to have some sort of romantic sensibility that is triggered by a particular association. I can understand that. We've probably all got it to some degree.
An example would be the music that almost invariably gets played in documentaries or adverts for the Holy Land or Egypt, which features the evocative sound of the duduk, which is actually an Armenian instrument, and usually has no genuine association with the scenes in the pictures. (This point is a bit like the other thread, re playing accordions in Jane Austen dramas, etc.) The same phenomenon occurs with Ry Cooder's 'Paris, Texas' music, which gets used over and over as a cliche, shorthand, lazy way to set an ambience.
But there IS a subtle difference between one's personal emotional associations and the real thing.
But I do take your point, which was why I posted the D. Graham. Everything that P. Bensusan has recorded in his career has it's seeds in that one track 'She moved through the bizarre'. We all think we are playing our best effort on some particular day and tend to forget that we are within a larger social and historical procedure. Some people want to grab the edge of a tradition and stretch it into new areas, some people want to stay within the tradition and refine or augment what's already been done. As several people have argued on this site, I tend to the view that Irish music reached a point of perfection, just as some other comparable historical forms have done. Bach's music has always been exquisite just as set it down. But every year someone tries to mess with it, The Swingle Singers, or Michael J. Miles on 5 string banjo. Trying to play ITM on acoustic fingerstyle is a bit like that. Seems to me it's about extending the range, the repetoire, of the steel string acoustic. It's not about extending ITM, which is fine just the way it is, doesn't need extending.
It seemed to me, that if I wanted to play something called 'celtic guitar', including Irish, then the least I could do would be to try and understand what makes it special, even if I cannot reproduce it.
The further I've gone down that path, the more I seem to get annoyed when I hear guitarists playing tune with classic Irish names which don't sound anything like the way the original tune sounds. Davy Graham's 'She moved through the fair' is a travesty of the original, in that sense, but it's okay, because it's really a jazz guitarist exploring possibilities, and he was a pioneer, of that time. If I heard a present day 'celtic' guitarist doing that, I'd groan. For me, the challenge would be to play the simple traditional melody perfectly, without any classical or jazz or New Age or anything else creeping in.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Llig, where do you draw the boundaries of “proper diddley” melody instruments? Does it include banjo, mandolin or accordion?
From my personal point of view, the pure-drop elite would be fiddle, pipes, whistle and flute, with banjo, mandolin and accordion (maybe harmonica fits here) welcome at the table, but not really able to carry on the tradition single handedly. Guitar *can* fit in that second group, but doesn’t always blend well. Likewise for zouks and octave mandos.
Modern “Celtic” fingerstyle guitar (like wolfbird) seems much more in the harp tradition.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Hi Ray...hey the door is open for Tony any time! I would like to get a guitar night there, but do wonder what kind of draw it would be honestly, since most of our audience is melody playing session goers who are more interested in pipes, flutes and fiddles. We were even going to risk a harp event, with all day classes leading up to a concert but that fell through for this year due to scheduling, and I was worried about what kind of crowd we'd get for that as well. I'd have to really think about how to promote a guitar night too, since I have to raise all those guarantees for the performers, LOL.... or else! We do have some great local talent too, Stefan Grossman and El McMeen, Gabe Donohue, John Sheehan (mainly American but can play some Irish tunes brilliantly ),Donal Clancy. It's on the back burner.
Llig.... didn't mean to knock you personally by metioning Ray was not trying to learn from square one from a book, but wanted people to be aware he is already a very talented player with a great understanding of the instrument. I love teaching Ray some of my tricks but have also learned from watching what he does. I do ornaments strictly with the left hand, very low action which allows for precise articulation, yet I watched Ray do that Chet Atkins thing and was very pelasantly surprised how he triplets that way.
as llig says that guitar tunes are a genre unto itself, is really true. They are primarily listening pieces, as a harp piece might be. Hard to want to get up and dance too, though in my playing I like to focus on being able to play a tune at dance tempo, along with the other melody players, if possible. Often enough though, it happens you kick off a tune and people join in and the speed is hijacked, so it's good to be able to keep up. Sometimes it's hard, this music was not laid out for guitar, and some of the reaches take a little more time (unless you are Tony Mcmanus, LOL) so sometimes we sneak and play it in the wrong key a bit slower if we really want to be "the new harp" and go solo.
Yes, Amy Beshara, a young up and coming Cape Breton fiddler from NJ, she threw those E tunes at the crew. I love when we go around and someone brings in some new tunes. Those were real "throw the guitar player tunes".... they will be on the next session CD, but there is a way to deal with them REAL easily, will show you next time if you want. You'll be surprised. They were lovely, haunting, powerful tunes. Played beautifully.
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"where do you draw the boundaries of “proper diddley” melody instruments?"
The boundary is not a line, it's (as with most things about this music) a kind of fuzzy grey area. Fiddles, flutes, pipes, and whistles are in. Guitars are out. C/Csharp and B/C button boxes, concertinas, banjos, mandolins, moothies etc, are in the grey area.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Is there a boundary line between the 'in' area and the grey area,, and between the grey area and the 'out area? Maybe you don't need a passport from each area any more to live in one or the other. Maybe it just depends on whether you fit in as a denizen.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
If you can see where very very very light grey turns to white, you are a cleverer man that I. White is an odd one. You think something is white, until you hold up something that is whiter next too it. It doesn't happen the other way though, if you see grey, it's grey.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
It's all greek to me...certainly not just a black and white situation.
Do you really think I'm cleverer than you, llig?
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Dunno if it applies here, but I read a fascinating thesis (was it by Mike Seeger ?) somewhere, that the oldest, wildest Appalachian music, drawing influences from Ireland, Scotland, England, Germany, Scandinavia, and elsewhere, plus African and Eastern Cherokee, was modal, and got it's character from fretless instruments, fiddle and fretless banjo, so it was easy to get perfect intonation for modal scales, and to slide a note a bit sharp or flat for effect. That original character was lost once the tunes were caged in with frets on banjos and guitars, tamed to fit equal temperament.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
I meant to add that's one reason why Irish (or 'celtic') is hard on guitar. You can bend notes, but it tends to sound bluesy and wrong. You can slide notes, but you still end up with a fretted note.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
those feckless fretlers
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
, ''concertinas, ,are in the grey area.'''!!!! Banjo?! Guitars are out?
Tell that to John Kelly,RIP, Bernard O Sullivan, Tommy McMahon, Chris Droney, Paddy Murphy, Gerald Haugh, Tom Carey, Sonny Murray, Sean O'Dwyer etc etc.
Grey area ! Feckin ejit ! sorry but really, what a load of drivel.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by jig
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Iris,
If you could get Tony M or Donal Clancy to play at the IAANJ again the would be GREAT! Actually Tony and Maeve Donnelly are playing some shows in Europe to promote their new CD. I was hoping that maybe they'd play some shows on this side of the pond, particularly at the IAANJ again. Their concert really opened my eyes to all kinds of musical possibilties. I've always really hoped El would either play a show or play at a session too. His playing inspired me to put down the flatpick and take up playing fingerstyle ITM. I've corresponded with him via email on occassion but it would be nice to meet him in person.
Speaking of the IAANJ I have to say that the folks at the session are a very supportive bunch. I had chat with Veronica about some of the tunes from the James Morrison book and she gave me some good insight into some of the fiddle ornamentation... rolls in particular. We also chatted about the Porter House session and she introduced me to the gentleman who plays and makes whistles because he's a regular at the PH sessions and we also chatted for a bit (can't remember his name at the moment). Between our lesson and talking with some of the session goer's I really learned a few things. All and all it was a really good night.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Michael, what about zouks and octave mandos? Grey, or out like guitars?
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Oh no, Jig's back
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
And his front.
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
What goes around comes around
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by jig
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Michael:
"It's kind of like a genre unto itself. Separate from "proper" diddley music. Not a sub-genre that can fit under the general umbrella of what the fiddle, flute, pipes and whistle do. Not worse of course, I'm not judging it, but different."
Yep, agreed...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xInuesYrUPA
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
Ray, that is John Sindt...whistle maker. PH is on this Sunday.
IAANJ is quite "user friendly", and the music is pretty on the ball too. Having a guest host each time really ties it together, and helps bring new tunes in as well, so hopefully it never will get too repetitive or stale.
We have Louisa Bennion, a great concertina player, coming to host 5/17. Very worth hearing! Maybe she can give you concertina tricks to adapt to guitar! Not kidding... I learn from them all, every different instrument. It even helps in accompanyment.... esp. if doing hybrid melody/backing ... I am curious to really focus on what goes on in that little black box! I was zeroed in on what that piano accordion player was doing too last time, especially during "Moving Cloud" ... that sort of back and forth from the G to F# (wow.... hope I have the tune name right, to the right tune!) in the beginning of the piece.... nice rather than to just sit on a chord, to go back and forth on the melody like like that a bit and really very easy, they live right next door to each other on the fingerboard.
Wonder if enough melody is played in the accompaniment, at what point it becomes considered more a melody instrument, LOL! And gets more accepted! Or if it will always be looked on as just old backing, not that it matters as long as it sounds nice and doesn't disrupt the tune. Ray....you have enough knowledge of the tunes to start "hybriding" a bit that way in the backing... good pianists do it.... back to my usual generally not taken seriously rant about listeneing to good piano players to get a great sense of backing.... Charlie Lennon or Felix Dolan are worth studying. Hmmm..... how would you slur on a piano though... seems more limiting than frets!
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Fingerstyle Guitar: Single Note Technique Question.
"and it crossed my mind that I really didn't like the melody, bassline, counter melody so much anymore"
Hey wolfbird, the same thing happened to me. I would learn a tune (even by ear and not from a book!) and find I would lose something once I started to arrange it Mainly because I would have to move the notes around on the fretboard to accomodate the bass or harmony notes. I hardly ever listen to the so-called celtic guitarists (except McManus) and am sorta embarassed by the term. Really enjoy the flatpicking by Clancy and the other guitarists on Masters of Irish Guitar. Nice playing, too Wolfbird.
My introduction to Irish Music was the Kevin Burke & Michael O'Domhnaill album Promenade (just re-released on CD). Always wished I could play the single line melodies like that. Guess I should've learnt to play one of the "in" instruments in ITM! but I'm too old to change now. Anyway, my attempt to do that on guitar comes from a combination of the 1st and 2nd fingers sometimes the 3rd and lots of hammer-ons and pull-offs.
# Posted on May 1st 2008 by wileydog