Not being a flute player - yet - I suppose this is just idle curiosity on my part. But, just in case I ever take it up (say, sometime next week ) my question is this:
You see some flute players - a lot, actually - playing with a *very* bent wrist, especially on the left hand, assuming they're right-handed, 'flute to the right' people. Then again, you see some others playing with more what I think of as a 'piper's grip', with wrists straight and fingers almost flat.
What are the reasons for each of those? Are there any benefits of one over the other? Would the 'piper's grip' restrict the player as to what type of music they might play? (By which I'm thinking that maybe the piper's grip is only appropriate for trad, and not for, say classical or jazz, but I'm ignorant in this area and hence the question.)
I find that the "bent wrist" gives you a better hold on the flute, you have more contact points to the flute since you can hold it between your thumb and your palm while the fingers are moving, but thats just me. I don't think that one grip restricts you to one genre, since it (as far as I know) has no influence on your sound, it's just a matter of what you find more comfortable.
I think grip is a question of how people are shaped. My hands just don't seem to be made for the straight wrist version.
Another problem to take into consideration is keys: with the "piper" grip, you can't use the bflat key (not a problem for those who don't need it of course)
straight wrist grip may make B and A rolls easier to execute precisely.
Pipers grip really helps some folks who have pain in the wrist with the "standard" grip...and I've also heard very good players report they get better rolls with it.
Many folks have hybrid grips - mine is more standard for the left hand, semi-pipers for the right.
Oh. So, on Tuesday when I go out and buy my Chris Wilkes flute (ha ha, waiting list 10 years and rising), which grip should I choose. I'd be a complete beginner, so wouldn't know any better either way ...
... although I have been playing whistle since last July - does that help?
I'd say try both, IMHO, for the right hand sort of a pipers grip is the most obvious choice. for the left hand, see what you like more, on standard grip, you've got a good hold on the flute but your hand is likely to cramp up while your getting used to it, the piper's grip is more relaxed but the grip is looser. Also, if your flute is keyed, take in consideration to be able to play them. All in all, there seems to be a common tendency to left-standard, right-piper's grip, but since it is a completely subjective choice, you are the only one who can answer your question.
In the Rockstro or "standard" grip, the left wrist doesn't have to be bent back on itself as severely as some people do. With a little attention to the angles and posture, it's possible to minimize that bend. That's how I do it.
I tried piper's and it just didn't feel natural. Something about the Rockstro felt more like holding a fiddle neck (and right hand feels much like holding a bow, just not curving the fingers as much).
One advantage some people cite for pipers is it may be easier to do cuts, taps, and rolls with the left hand index and middle fingers. Whereas in Rockstro, the arch of those fingers makes it a bit tricky at first to pop off the hole as readily. Again, having played fiddle seemed to help--the motions of a roll on index on fiddle and flute are surprisingly similar.
If I try to do piper's grip with my left hand, my fingers wrinkle up and I can't seem to get any decent coverage over the holes. So I hold it with a normal grip, using the base knuckle of my left index finger as a place to rest the flute and my left thumb as support, but it's not actually holding the flute. My left thumb is free to move.
My right hand is free to do a piper's grip if needed. It's not needed with the flutes I have.
Thanks, folks. When I decide I need to play flute as well, I think I'll try both, as suggested, and see which suits my hands the most.
And Will, I didn't know about Rockstro, so I've just looked him up. Very very good writing and very explanatory as to why that particular grip should be used. Interesting that, at that time, he is apparently railing against its decline in use, rather than inventing the grip himself.
The wrist on the left hand shouldn't be bent too much as this makes it difficult to get the rolls on the A or even the B. The hold with the finger tips on the flute is best as this allows you to hold the flute without over reaching your right hand out too far. This isn't good for your shoulder in the long run. The flute should also be held as near to horizontal as possible
Ben, glad you found the Rockstro stuff--it does make sense, eh?
As a fellow fiddler, I'd encourage you to take up flute. It really helped me understand the reasons behind the tunes that are popular for flute, whistle, and pipes, plus breathing is a great way to think about phrasing and leaving space in a tune. Maybe it's just me, but the basics of playing the flute seem much easier than the same for fiddle. Once you get your embouchure working, the rest is fairly straightforward compared to whipping cat gut with a horse's tail..... (not that I'm really proficient on flute yet, but I'm in no hurry).
Interesting point, Will. I think that the whistle (and by extension the flute) are excellent instruments for anyone interested in ITM to know, or understand. I'd even go as far as to recommend that anyone interested in starting ITM should, whatever else s/he plays or wants to play, also gain some familiarity with the whistle. Long rolls, short rolls, cuts, cranning, triplets &c. are not hard to learn on the whistle - Great foundation & relatively easy intro to structure & ornamantation.
I know, Will. It's really tempting. (I can picture my girlfriend's eyes rolling as I write.) I am doing my bit though by learning whistle at least. And you're dead right - it's fascinating and has had an unexpectedly beneficial effect on my fiddle playing.
"Maybe it's just me, but the basics of playing the flute seem much easier than the same for fiddle. Once you get your embouchure working,"... Just like fiddle is really easy once you've got your bowing sorted and know where to put your fingers...
Seriously, both grips work for the flute, but the piping grip makes it harder to reach certain keys, particularly the Bflat key. Not an issue if you have a keyless flute, but someday you might want to... If only to make sure you don't lose the awkward key change competition with the fiddlers!
The motivation for piping grip is really only that it makes it easier to reach holes that are further apart. I find the flute generally less securely held - if you can use the normal grip then do (my opinion). Just put the effort into learning to do your top finger cuts crisply with the bent index finger. The right hand piping grip, left hand normal is also a commonly seen variant in the ITM world and does not seeem to cause too many problems.
In practice, any grip is going to seem awkward when you first start. The flute is not a particularly ergonomic instrument . but then the fiddle's left hand isn't either. It is however essential that we do not end up crippling ourselves with RSI or carpal tunnel. That means keeping the left wrist relatively straight in the normal grip and, for me, this means all the holes on the flute are turned a bit towards me and I have to turn the embouchure hole away from me to keep it in line with my lips. But every flute and every set of hands is different. YMMV.
Chris.
(And you cannot put too much effort into practicing tone quality and breath support. The fingers are easy by comparison. But if the noise you're making is no good then it doesn't matter what pyrotechnics your fingers are executing.)
I went it the other way round. I took up the whistle to improve my fiddle playing. And unexpectedly enjoyed it in its own right. For ages and ages I've been promising myself that I will learn to play the pipes one day. But I'm being moved to change that to the flute instead. I'll have to wait till the kids have grown up though, I simply don't have the time now (or the dosh).
Don't you ever play games Michael? Our fiddler's favourites seem to be moving the whole tune up or down a fifth just by moving one string left or right. That doesn't bother me and is indeed good practice for playing by ear. However, when that is combined with moving too low for the range of the flute and I also need to think (while playiing...) about replacement tones for the ones I cannot play then I start to have problems.
Or some "fiddle" tunes like e.g. Tam Lin - easy in D minor on the fiddle - a pain on the keyless flute. Dead easy on the Boehm though. Or played on an F-Flute it's ok too (played "as if in B Minor"). Still adds up to "awkward keys" in my book. And nothing seems to persuade the fiddler's to "do it my way".
Your fiddlers favourite "game" is tp play a tune in a different key but with the same fingering? Oh dear. why would you want to play games, when you can play tunes instead?
re shifting down/up the string on a fiddle: that does n't look like much of a game for the fiddle player although it might be for some other instrument - it's just too easy.
transposing down/up by a tone/semitone/thirds etc would be more like it.
especially if you have a set mellow/bright pipes in your session.
Is everything you play in the key most friendly to the other instruments around you? Do you pay attention to how the Bodhran is tuned?
I think the point of the key change mentioned above is that it then sounds different higher or lower - from the fiddler's point of view it is probably not even seen as a virtuoso party piece and they probably don't even notice that I have to work harder. Just like popping an octave up or down is easy for a flute.
And why does one concertina player that I know insist on playing out on the ocean a tone higher than everyone else I've met? Not a particularly awkward key, just annoying to have to rethink when he does it. (Probably do my head in if he switched to the key I'm more familiar with now.)
These are example of what I have called the "awkward key game" - many more are almost certainly to be found in sessions near you. My favourite is playing pipe tunes in D-Mix on the D flute - instead of A since the fingering matches that on the chanter. (Probably the biggest reason for getting a low C key on my flute someday...) I can play them in A too, or in G. They sound different though. G is good for Scottish fiddle tunes on a keyless flute since the G# is not needed - but try getting the fiddler's to play along! Duke of Fife's welcome to Deeside is a nice example where the character of the tune changes when played in A or G on a wooden flute due to the different weighting of the different notes. i.e. starting with the EEAA or DDGG - the E (one of the weaker notes on the flute) is just totally diferent in character to the D (honk). I like both. And then to really annoy people you can play it slowly in A minor with C and F naturals... Very sad. But please not all of the above at the same time!
Of course you play in keys friendly to the instruments around you. This is bog standard first step kindergarten basic session etiquette.
Out on the ocean is a standard in G and A. It's good in A on the fiddle, but the slow C# roll on the flute is impossible. So if there's flutes, I'd play it in G.
Another common tune though, Jim Ward's, is normally in G, but is great in A on the flute. There are no C# rolls and no G#s in it anywhere.
I hate changing key in the middle of a tune though. It's a daft and pointless thing to do.
Some bods here like to play High road to Linton rotating through D,G and A - I am not sure in what order, but I don't like it either. Musically it does not seem to have much point.
C# "Rolls on flute are a pain, but:
000 XXX
0XX XXX or XXX XXX
000 XXX
X00 XXX
000 XXX
can come close.
Ooh, thanks for that! I play a boehm flute so I'm sorted for most anything on that but I play the whistle too and I've been trying to figure out what on *earth* to do about C# rolls!
LOL, Chris, I agree--getting a great embouchure is as easy as sorting out bowing on fiddle. Should only take about 20 years of dedicated daily effort.
But it's entirely possible to play tunes on flute up to session standard within a few months of picking the thing up. Only 6 fingering holes, etc. Very few people ever acheive that on fiddle.
So I'm not saying that it's easier to play flute at a high level. Just that it's possible to play at a basic level of competence (in tune, in time, up to pace) within a relatively short time, compared to fiddle. But that's just been my experience.
Hi all! I’m an infrequent visitor/contributor to these regions, but an old friend (benhall1) has requested (possibly misguidedly) my input on this thread! I’m not going to rehash a load of stuff that is frequently mulled over (being polite about it!) elsewhere or that has been well said above, nor try to cover every aspect of the discussion here thus far. I think the links below to some past threads on Chiff & Fipple (where I’m a regular) should serve Ben’s purpose/light the touch-paper (I’m definitely withdrawing to a safer place!).
BTW, Ben really should remember Rockstro's name - I used to drop it often enough in the days when we played together! And yes, Rockstro does a lot of railing!
FWIW, this topic is probably closely equivalent to the fiddle bow-hold vexed issue: is a “correct” Classical hold the only efficient and acceptable one, all others to be looked down on and denigrated as liable to permanently damage or incapacitate good playing, or even injure the perpetrator? Or should we accept the brilliant musicianship of a e.g. Kevin Burke or whoever despite the fact they hold their bow 1/3rd way up with two fingers? (Not saying he does precisely that, BTW. - Rhetorical Q/device, not an attempt to start a war!) Also e.g. have a look at this video ( http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_252_3_jigs_from_the_mulcahy_family/ ) (nice!) of the Mulcahy family: Louise on flute has a textbook “Rockstro” classical flute hold; Michelle the fiddler has an execrable looking bow hold (to my non-specialist eye), more of a clutch, but still plays with total control and beautifully!
Anyway, not wishing to digress too far, there are inevitably different schools of thought on and different approaches to the question of flute support/hold (avoid use of the word “grip” – you shouldn’t be, however you do it!) that are amply represented and explained in the links. I have my own preference and views, of course.
Those interested could also try using C&F's own search engine with keywords like "piper's grip" or "Rockstro hold" or “holding flute” etc. You will find much that is helpful and much that is totally contradictory. It is a controversial, sometimes heatedly so topic You just have to try out the alternatives for yourself and reach a choice, but not necessarily a final one! Lots of stuff about tension and strain injuries etc. there too, which often leads to discussion about ways to use/change posture etc. Here (at last) is a selection of links to relevant threads. Sure, I had my oar in most of ‘em (no apology for that), but plenty of other good stuff there, including variant or opposing views/advice:
Further, for Ben's benefit, here are some destructions: I fondly expect him to grab my flute off me next time we meet and demonstrate how much he has learnt. He's long been able to play whistle decently, so...... but I'm banning his "fiddler's leg"!
I do not think there is one "right" way of holding a flute, but there are methods of establishing what is right/best for the individual. Here is a set of instructions/principles for a beginner to do that for the “orthodox/Classical/normal/Rockstro/standard” flute hold (similar processes can be worked out for any alternative hold):
Start thus:
Left Hand Position: Without the flute, cock your L forefinger as if you were going to pull a pistol trigger. The1st finger 1st knuckle (the one nearest the palm) should stick out a bit. Now take your flute in your R hand, put your 3 LH finger pads (not tips) on their finger holes (1-3 counting from the top) as if to play, then tuck the tube onto that projecting knuckle, but DON'T squeeze it there! (You'll just get cramp.) Let go after observing your hand. Now put the flute up into a more-or-less horizontal playing posture. Hold it with just your R hand fingers 1-3, pads on the relevant holes, little finger on side of tube, R thumb under the tube between fingers 1 & 2, no L hand. Use your L hand to position the tube/embouchure against your lip. Then put your L hand into place as previously, but once position found, raise all the fingers, just rest the flute on the knuckle. Exert a gentle pressure TOWARDS your body from that knuckle/side of your L forefinger. Either let the L thumb hang free or place it gently against the tube where it can roll onto any thumb key, but don't hold the flute up or against your forefinger with it.
Right Hand Position: Continuing from the last point reached, place your R 1-3 finger pads (NOT tips end on, nor the creases of the joints) on the holes (in playing position) with the R wrist and back of the hand more-or-less straight through from the elbow, arm sloping down c 45 degrees; for now leave your thumb hanging free. The pads of the R fingers should fall onto the tone holes comfortably with the fingers roughly at right-angles to the tube and more-or-less horizontal from lowest knuckle to tip, not straight (tense!) but just slightly arched (middle finger slightly more arched than index and ring), relaxed and flexible (not clawed). You should be able to move them firmly, but don't squeeze the tube or flatten the fingers - it causes tension! The R little finger can rest against the side of the tube (or on the Eb key if you have one) as an extra support, but again, light and relaxed is sufficient. Now simply fold your thumb up under your hand in its natural "opposed" rotation and see where it hits the tube. Now withdraw your R thumb around the side of the tube until it is more pushing away than up. Keep your R little finger on the tube too if you can/like. Lift R 1-3 into the air. The flute should now be stably balanced and you should be able to move around quite freely without (fear of) dropping it.
NOTE: The R thumb position is crucial to being able to both support and play the flute - and it is amazing what a difference a few millimetres difference in how you place it can make, either longitudinally along the tube or laterally/rotationally around it. As the one digit that never operates anything on any type of flute, it is still one of the most important. There is no one "correct" position for it as every hand is differently proportioned, but you need to establish the right position for you. Somewhere between the 1st and 2nd fingers and slightly more to the rear side of the tube than under it are fair starting guidelines, so that it provides the supporting (light) pressure away to balance with the chin against the central inward pressure of the L forefinger-side; but experiment……
To summarise, the flute should be "held" in place by the opposing pressures - two outwards pressures towards the ends of the tube (face and R thumb, R little finger extra) and one inwards near the centre (L forefinger lowest knuckle). You should not have to "hold it up" at all. When you place your fingers back on the holes, they should be relaxed and free to move easily, not stiff and clenched in a mortal grip! If you get the balance of the instrument right between the three/four pressure points, you should be able to jig around quite bullishly with ALL your fingers raised (save the R little one) and the L thumb away from the tube too, without fear of dropping the instrument - try it!
General Posture: For most people with average physique, the most comfortable, least tense position to allow and support good breathing and all physical motion in playing will be with the head turned somewhat to the left so that the left wrist is virtually directly in front of the centre of the chest when holding the flute, the left upper arm roughly at right angles to the line through the shoulders; the flute will be angling out between c30-40 degrees from the line through the shoulders and the R elbow will be roughly on or just forward of that line. Both elbows will be roughly at the level of the bottom of the ribs and should be out from the body, but not "held" there, just floating slightly bouncily. The flute should be near enough horizontal or just slightly pointing down at its foot end.
Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Not being a flute player - yet - I suppose this is just idle curiosity on my part. But, just in case I ever take it up (say, sometime next week
) my question is this:
You see some flute players - a lot, actually - playing with a *very* bent wrist, especially on the left hand, assuming they're right-handed, 'flute to the right' people. Then again, you see some others playing with more what I think of as a 'piper's grip', with wrists straight and fingers almost flat.
What are the reasons for each of those? Are there any benefits of one over the other? Would the 'piper's grip' restrict the player as to what type of music they might play? (By which I'm thinking that maybe the piper's grip is only appropriate for trad, and not for, say classical or jazz, but I'm ignorant in this area and hence the question.)
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
I find that the "bent wrist" gives you a better hold on the flute, you have more contact points to the flute since you can hold it between your thumb and your palm while the fingers are moving, but thats just me. I don't think that one grip restricts you to one genre, since it (as far as I know) has no influence on your sound, it's just a matter of what you find more comfortable.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by TMB
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Fair enough, and thanks for the answer. I suppose it's partly that I've never seen the 'piper's grip' style in anything *but* ITM.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
I think grip is a question of how people are shaped. My hands just don't seem to be made for the straight wrist version.
Another problem to take into consideration is keys: with the "piper" grip, you can't use the bflat key (not a problem for those who don't need it of course)
straight wrist grip may make B and A rolls easier to execute precisely.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Tirno
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Pipers grip really helps some folks who have pain in the wrist with the "standard" grip...and I've also heard very good players report they get better rolls with it.
Many folks have hybrid grips - mine is more standard for the left hand, semi-pipers for the right.
Eric
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Jayhawk
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Oh. So, on Tuesday when I go out and buy my Chris Wilkes flute (ha ha, waiting list 10 years and rising), which grip should I choose. I'd be a complete beginner, so wouldn't know any better either way ...
... although I have been playing whistle since last July - does that help?
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
I'd say try both, IMHO, for the right hand sort of a pipers grip is the most obvious choice. for the left hand, see what you like more, on standard grip, you've got a good hold on the flute but your hand is likely to cramp up while your getting used to it, the piper's grip is more relaxed but the grip is looser. Also, if your flute is keyed, take in consideration to be able to play them. All in all, there seems to be a common tendency to left-standard, right-piper's grip, but since it is a completely subjective choice, you are the only one who can answer your question.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by TMB
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Can't tell you until I have had my flute in my hands. You'd think I could remember how I hold the thing but I can't............
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by mehere
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
In the Rockstro or "standard" grip, the left wrist doesn't have to be bent back on itself as severely as some people do. With a little attention to the angles and posture, it's possible to minimize that bend. That's how I do it.
I tried piper's and it just didn't feel natural. Something about the Rockstro felt more like holding a fiddle neck (and right hand feels much like holding a bow, just not curving the fingers as much).
One advantage some people cite for pipers is it may be easier to do cuts, taps, and rolls with the left hand index and middle fingers. Whereas in Rockstro, the arch of those fingers makes it a bit tricky at first to pop off the hole as readily. Again, having played fiddle seemed to help--the motions of a roll on index on fiddle and flute are surprisingly similar.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
If I try to do piper's grip with my left hand, my fingers wrinkle up and I can't seem to get any decent coverage over the holes. So I hold it with a normal grip, using the base knuckle of my left index finger as a place to rest the flute and my left thumb as support, but it's not actually holding the flute. My left thumb is free to move.
My right hand is free to do a piper's grip if needed. It's not needed with the flutes I have.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by sbhikes
My mistake
I actually never tried to move my thumb, always thought it was holding it, now that i tried it i agree with sbhikes, thumb is only supportive
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by TMB
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Thanks, folks. When I decide I need to play flute as well, I think I'll try both, as suggested, and see which suits my hands the most.
And Will, I didn't know about Rockstro, so I've just looked him up. Very very good writing and very explanatory as to why that particular grip should be used. Interesting that, at that time, he is apparently railing against its decline in use, rather than inventing the grip himself.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
The wrist on the left hand shouldn't be bent too much as this makes it difficult to get the rolls on the A or even the B. The hold with the finger tips on the flute is best as this allows you to hold the flute without over reaching your right hand out too far. This isn't good for your shoulder in the long run. The flute should also be held as near to horizontal as possible
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by ennisman
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Ben, glad you found the Rockstro stuff--it does make sense, eh?
As a fellow fiddler, I'd encourage you to take up flute. It really helped me understand the reasons behind the tunes that are popular for flute, whistle, and pipes, plus breathing is a great way to think about phrasing and leaving space in a tune. Maybe it's just me, but the basics of playing the flute seem much easier than the same for fiddle. Once you get your embouchure working, the rest is fairly straightforward compared to whipping cat gut with a horse's tail..... (not that I'm really proficient on flute yet, but I'm in no hurry).
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Interesting point, Will. I think that the whistle (and by extension the flute) are excellent instruments for anyone interested in ITM to know, or understand. I'd even go as far as to recommend that anyone interested in starting ITM should, whatever else s/he plays or wants to play, also gain some familiarity with the whistle. Long rolls, short rolls, cuts, cranning, triplets &c. are not hard to learn on the whistle - Great foundation & relatively easy intro to structure & ornamantation.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
I know, Will. It's really tempting. (I can picture my girlfriend's eyes rolling as I write.) I am doing my bit though by learning whistle at least. And you're dead right - it's fascinating and has had an unexpectedly beneficial effect on my fiddle playing.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
"Maybe it's just me, but the basics of playing the flute seem much easier than the same for fiddle. Once you get your embouchure working,"... Just like fiddle is really easy once you've got your bowing sorted and know where to put your fingers...
Seriously, both grips work for the flute, but the piping grip makes it harder to reach certain keys, particularly the Bflat key. Not an issue if you have a keyless flute, but someday you might want to... If only to make sure you don't lose the awkward key change competition with the fiddlers!
The motivation for piping grip is really only that it makes it easier to reach holes that are further apart. I find the flute generally less securely held - if you can use the normal grip then do (my opinion). Just put the effort into learning to do your top finger cuts crisply with the bent index finger. The right hand piping grip, left hand normal is also a commonly seen variant in the ITM world and does not seeem to cause too many problems.
In practice, any grip is going to seem awkward when you first start. The flute is not a particularly ergonomic instrument . but then the fiddle's left hand isn't either. It is however essential that we do not end up crippling ourselves with RSI or carpal tunnel. That means keeping the left wrist relatively straight in the normal grip and, for me, this means all the holes on the flute are turned a bit towards me and I have to turn the embouchure hole away from me to keep it in line with my lips. But every flute and every set of hands is different. YMMV.
Chris.
(And you cannot put too much effort into practicing tone quality and breath support. The fingers are easy by comparison. But if the noise you're making is no good then it doesn't matter what pyrotechnics your fingers are executing.)
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
I went it the other way round. I took up the whistle to improve my fiddle playing. And unexpectedly enjoyed it in its own right. For ages and ages I've been promising myself that I will learn to play the pipes one day. But I'm being moved to change that to the flute instead. I'll have to wait till the kids have grown up though, I simply don't have the time now (or the dosh).
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
And whatever you do, you will lose the awkward key change competition with the fiddlers anyway. Unless you play a Boehm flute.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
The last people you want to be playing any instrument with are those who are into "awkward key change competitions".
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Don't you ever play games Michael? Our fiddler's favourites seem to be moving the whole tune up or down a fifth just by moving one string left or right. That doesn't bother me and is indeed good practice for playing by ear. However, when that is combined with moving too low for the range of the flute and I also need to think (while playiing...) about replacement tones for the ones I cannot play then I start to have problems.
Or some "fiddle" tunes like e.g. Tam Lin - easy in D minor on the fiddle - a pain on the keyless flute. Dead easy on the Boehm though. Or played on an F-Flute it's ok too (played "as if in B Minor"). Still adds up to "awkward keys" in my book. And nothing seems to persuade the fiddler's to "do it my way".
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Your fiddlers favourite "game" is tp play a tune in a different key but with the same fingering? Oh dear. why would you want to play games, when you can play tunes instead?
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
re shifting down/up the string on a fiddle: that does n't look like much of a game for the fiddle player although it might be for some other instrument - it's just too easy.
transposing down/up by a tone/semitone/thirds etc would be more like it.
especially if you have a set mellow/bright pipes in your session.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by biggus dave
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Is everything you play in the key most friendly to the other instruments around you? Do you pay attention to how the Bodhran is tuned?
I think the point of the key change mentioned above is that it then sounds different higher or lower - from the fiddler's point of view it is probably not even seen as a virtuoso party piece and they probably don't even notice that I have to work harder. Just like popping an octave up or down is easy for a flute.
And why does one concertina player that I know insist on playing out on the ocean a tone higher than everyone else I've met? Not a particularly awkward key, just annoying to have to rethink when he does it. (Probably do my head in if he switched to the key I'm more familiar with now.)
These are example of what I have called the "awkward key game" - many more are almost certainly to be found in sessions near you. My favourite is playing pipe tunes in D-Mix on the D flute - instead of A since the fingering matches that on the chanter. (Probably the biggest reason for getting a low C key on my flute someday...) I can play them in A too, or in G. They sound different though. G is good for Scottish fiddle tunes on a keyless flute since the G# is not needed - but try getting the fiddler's to play along! Duke of Fife's welcome to Deeside is a nice example where the character of the tune changes when played in A or G on a wooden flute due to the different weighting of the different notes. i.e. starting with the EEAA or DDGG - the E (one of the weaker notes on the flute) is just totally diferent in character to the D (honk). I like both. And then to really annoy people you can play it slowly in A minor with C and F naturals... Very sad. But please not all of the above at the same time!
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Of course you play in keys friendly to the instruments around you. This is bog standard first step kindergarten basic session etiquette.
Out on the ocean is a standard in G and A. It's good in A on the fiddle, but the slow C# roll on the flute is impossible. So if there's flutes, I'd play it in G.
Another common tune though, Jim Ward's, is normally in G, but is great in A on the flute. There are no C# rolls and no G#s in it anywhere.
I hate changing key in the middle of a tune though. It's a daft and pointless thing to do.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Some bods here like to play High road to Linton rotating through D,G and A - I am not sure in what order, but I don't like it either. Musically it does not seem to have much point.
C# "Rolls on flute are a pain, but:
000 XXX
0XX XXX or XXX XXX
000 XXX
X00 XXX
000 XXX
can come close.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Ooh, thanks for that! I play a boehm flute so I'm sorted for most anything on that but I play the whistle too and I've been trying to figure out what on *earth* to do about C# rolls!
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by An Kammneves
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Meanwhile, did you get my e-mail, Michael?
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
LOL, Chris, I agree--getting a great embouchure is as easy as sorting out bowing on fiddle. Should only take about 20 years of dedicated daily effort.
But it's entirely possible to play tunes on flute up to session standard within a few months of picking the thing up. Only 6 fingering holes, etc. Very few people ever acheive that on fiddle.
So I'm not saying that it's easier to play flute at a high level. Just that it's possible to play at a basic level of competence (in tune, in time, up to pace) within a relatively short time, compared to fiddle. But that's just been my experience.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Hi all! I’m an infrequent visitor/contributor to these regions, but an old friend (benhall1) has requested (possibly misguidedly) my input on this thread! I’m not going to rehash a load of stuff that is frequently mulled over (being polite about it!) elsewhere or that has been well said above, nor try to cover every aspect of the discussion here thus far. I think the links below to some past threads on Chiff & Fipple (where I’m a regular) should serve Ben’s purpose/light the touch-paper (I’m definitely withdrawing to a safer place!).
BTW, Ben really should remember Rockstro's name - I used to drop it often enough in the days when we played together! And yes, Rockstro does a lot of railing!
FWIW, this topic is probably closely equivalent to the fiddle bow-hold vexed issue: is a “correct” Classical hold the only efficient and acceptable one, all others to be looked down on and denigrated as liable to permanently damage or incapacitate good playing, or even injure the perpetrator? Or should we accept the brilliant musicianship of a e.g. Kevin Burke or whoever despite the fact they hold their bow 1/3rd way up with two fingers? (Not saying he does precisely that, BTW. - Rhetorical Q/device, not an attempt to start a war!) Also e.g. have a look at this video ( http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_252_3_jigs_from_the_mulcahy_family/ ) (nice!) of the Mulcahy family: Louise on flute has a textbook “Rockstro” classical flute hold; Michelle the fiddler has an execrable looking bow hold (to my non-specialist eye), more of a clutch, but still plays with total control and beautifully!
Anyway, not wishing to digress too far, there are inevitably different schools of thought on and different approaches to the question of flute support/hold (avoid use of the word “grip” – you shouldn’t be, however you do it!) that are amply represented and explained in the links. I have my own preference and views, of course.
Those interested could also try using C&F's own search engine with keywords like "piper's grip" or "Rockstro hold" or “holding flute” etc. You will find much that is helpful and much that is totally contradictory. It is a controversial, sometimes heatedly so topic You just have to try out the alternatives for yourself and reach a choice, but not necessarily a final one! Lots of stuff about tension and strain injuries etc. there too, which often leads to discussion about ways to use/change posture etc. Here (at last) is a selection of links to relevant threads. Sure, I had my oar in most of ‘em (no apology for that), but plenty of other good stuff there, including variant or opposing views/advice:
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=54423 “Irish Grip”
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=52830 “Piper’s Grip vs Normal”
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=52562 “Help me hold my flute”
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=53045 “Where does your thumb go?”
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=52257 “Wandering left thumb”
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=51417 “Right hand problems”
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=55819 “New Player .. Which grip is best?”
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=57239 “Still having trouble with normal grip”
http://chiffboard.mati.ca/viewtopic.php?t=50536 “New flute woes”
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Jemtheflute
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Further, for Ben's benefit, here are some destructions: I fondly expect him to grab my flute off me next time we meet and demonstrate how much he has learnt. He's long been able to play whistle decently, so...... but I'm banning his "fiddler's leg"!
********************************************************************
I do not think there is one "right" way of holding a flute, but there are methods of establishing what is right/best for the individual. Here is a set of instructions/principles for a beginner to do that for the “orthodox/Classical/normal/Rockstro/standard” flute hold (similar processes can be worked out for any alternative hold):
Start thus:
Left Hand Position: Without the flute, cock your L forefinger as if you were going to pull a pistol trigger. The1st finger 1st knuckle (the one nearest the palm) should stick out a bit. Now take your flute in your R hand, put your 3 LH finger pads (not tips) on their finger holes (1-3 counting from the top) as if to play, then tuck the tube onto that projecting knuckle, but DON'T squeeze it there! (You'll just get cramp.) Let go after observing your hand. Now put the flute up into a more-or-less horizontal playing posture. Hold it with just your R hand fingers 1-3, pads on the relevant holes, little finger on side of tube, R thumb under the tube between fingers 1 & 2, no L hand. Use your L hand to position the tube/embouchure against your lip. Then put your L hand into place as previously, but once position found, raise all the fingers, just rest the flute on the knuckle. Exert a gentle pressure TOWARDS your body from that knuckle/side of your L forefinger. Either let the L thumb hang free or place it gently against the tube where it can roll onto any thumb key, but don't hold the flute up or against your forefinger with it.
Right Hand Position: Continuing from the last point reached, place your R 1-3 finger pads (NOT tips end on, nor the creases of the joints) on the holes (in playing position) with the R wrist and back of the hand more-or-less straight through from the elbow, arm sloping down c 45 degrees; for now leave your thumb hanging free. The pads of the R fingers should fall onto the tone holes comfortably with the fingers roughly at right-angles to the tube and more-or-less horizontal from lowest knuckle to tip, not straight (tense!) but just slightly arched (middle finger slightly more arched than index and ring), relaxed and flexible (not clawed). You should be able to move them firmly, but don't squeeze the tube or flatten the fingers - it causes tension! The R little finger can rest against the side of the tube (or on the Eb key if you have one) as an extra support, but again, light and relaxed is sufficient. Now simply fold your thumb up under your hand in its natural "opposed" rotation and see where it hits the tube. Now withdraw your R thumb around the side of the tube until it is more pushing away than up. Keep your R little finger on the tube too if you can/like. Lift R 1-3 into the air. The flute should now be stably balanced and you should be able to move around quite freely without (fear of) dropping it.
NOTE: The R thumb position is crucial to being able to both support and play the flute - and it is amazing what a difference a few millimetres difference in how you place it can make, either longitudinally along the tube or laterally/rotationally around it. As the one digit that never operates anything on any type of flute, it is still one of the most important. There is no one "correct" position for it as every hand is differently proportioned, but you need to establish the right position for you. Somewhere between the 1st and 2nd fingers and slightly more to the rear side of the tube than under it are fair starting guidelines, so that it provides the supporting (light) pressure away to balance with the chin against the central inward pressure of the L forefinger-side; but experiment……
To summarise, the flute should be "held" in place by the opposing pressures - two outwards pressures towards the ends of the tube (face and R thumb, R little finger extra) and one inwards near the centre (L forefinger lowest knuckle). You should not have to "hold it up" at all. When you place your fingers back on the holes, they should be relaxed and free to move easily, not stiff and clenched in a mortal grip! If you get the balance of the instrument right between the three/four pressure points, you should be able to jig around quite bullishly with ALL your fingers raised (save the R little one) and the L thumb away from the tube too, without fear of dropping the instrument - try it!
General Posture: For most people with average physique, the most comfortable, least tense position to allow and support good breathing and all physical motion in playing will be with the head turned somewhat to the left so that the left wrist is virtually directly in front of the centre of the chest when holding the flute, the left upper arm roughly at right angles to the line through the shoulders; the flute will be angling out between c30-40 degrees from the line through the shoulders and the R elbow will be roughly on or just forward of that line. Both elbows will be roughly at the level of the bottom of the ribs and should be out from the body, but not "held" there, just floating slightly bouncily. The flute should be near enough horizontal or just slightly pointing down at its foot end.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Jemtheflute
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
"...just slightly pointing down at its foot end." And preferably over the lap of the player sitting next to you...
Good stuff Jem.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
[Groan]
Don't tell him that Will! He'll be unbearable. He will he will ...
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Aren't I anyway? Must be the company I've kept.......
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Jemtheflute
Re: Flute holds ... out of curiosity ...
Bleah!
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by benhall.1