Just a thought I had recently and I thought it might provoke an interesting discussion. I've noticed a lack of lyrics for many of the tunes on the site, which I am slowly chipping away at. This is probably because of the lack of Irish speakers, not that surprising, as many tunes have Irish-only lyrics.
Here's the question: If Irish tunes had lyrics in English would they be as popular as tunes without lyrics (or which English speakers assume simply don't have lyrics). If every tune was a song, would that be attractive, or would some of the simple charm of Irish music be lost. I ask this only because many of the tunes I know (Foxhunter's jig, Fanny Powers, Munster Battle Cry, Fair-haired Cannavans, Paidin O'Rafferty, when the cock crows it's day, I could go on) all have words in Irish which roll around upstairs as I play them. If all of these had English lyrics (thus making them more widely known) would everyone love a good sing-along or avoid Irish music like the plague (or like we avoid playing 'Molly Malone' and 'Whiskey in the Jar' for fear of it becoming karaoke night at the pub).
What are your opinions?
I'll start the ball by saying that Irish language culture is very, very different from perceived Irish culture and that a sing along would likely never happen as a solo singer is respected above a group. That said, if these had English lyrics I do think on the one hand that they would lose a lot. But on the other had, I look at some people and give them credit because they're trying with what they have, but you can't really understand a tune if you don't know it's words. Just try listening to a karaoke tape and see how different a tune sounds (and although I brought it up twice, no I do not karaoke sing). However, I get a sick feeling whenever we have to play (with no words) something like 'rattlin' bog' as I really hate those pubby songtunes, and I would be afraid that English lyrics would do this to all of the tunes.
popular because of no lyrics... sometimes due to the fact that you can't do your voice in with tunes as you can with songs... mine's gone at the moment. Don't know why.... but I'm sticking to only tunes at the moment
I'm just curious to know how the words fit in with all these peoples' variations ?
Some tunes may have words, yes. But we should remember that, as O'Neill called it, this is The Dance Music of Ireland. Not The Tunes of the Songs of Ireland. We've got far enough disassociated from the dance already, just sitting playing the tunes in a corner of a bar, that when someone gets up and dances it's a surprise. When someone will do a song in a session, it's not often one that we also play as a tune.
While we're on the subject, has anyone got the ( modern ) words to Whisk(e)y before Breakfast ?
Sidestepping from the question a little, the relationship between dance music and song in the Irish tradition (and other traditions) is something I would like to know more about. My current (uneducated) thinking is that many dance tunes were originally song airs, adapted by musicians to accompany dancing. As many musicians would independently have set the same air to dance rhythms, each putting their own creative spin on it, one air could have given rise to a multitude of dance tunes.
My knowledge of the Irish language is limited to a handful of words and phrases. But I get the impression that most Irish songs set to metric melodies are of a more light-hearted nature that the great Sean Nos songs, from which most slow airs are derived. I suspect that many of these are actually verse set to pre-existing dance tunes. But I could be barking up the wrong tree.
...It is of note that many traditions have a much closer association between song and dance, dances often being danced to songs. I wonder whether this association was once stronger in Ireland. I remember reading Elizabeth Crotty's comments on a particular tune, which she learned from an old woman (Mrs. Lillis) who used to sing words to it, and danced as she sang it.
At a festival last year in Cancale, Brittany I was stunned by the sheer stamina of two women who sang solidly for an hour for dancing and this out of doors. The tunes were grand and all that would be expected of a 'dance' tune (be it reel or jig, although they danced in the round with singers in the centre) with the added bonus of a song!
I was told this is not uncommon...
I has been theorizied by many a scholar that the older tunes all had words which have been lost. Only recent creations have gone without lyrics. And as to songs being not commonly played I would have to say that many slip jigs do have lyrics still (such as 'drops of brandy').
If it was "theorised that the older tunes all had words which have been lost", how could they hypothesise that in the absence of words which may or may not have been there in the first place? It is difficult to make useful deductions in the absence of evidence.
There are songs sung to dance tunes (or versions thereof - often the song versions are stuctured slightly differenty to accommodate refrains, uneven stanzas etc.) and song airs used as dance tunes. Which way round it happened probably depends on the individual case. But there has, at some time, clearly been a tendency for people marry verse with dance tunes. At a time when the dance music repertoire of a given locality was much smaller than it is today*, it is not inconceivable that all the tunes might have had words - not that everybody would necessarily have known them.
*I make the assumption that there was such a time?
Not really. Irish dance music is about instrumental virtuosity.
I think I can account for the misapprehension, though. Before the infamous Public Dance Halls Act killed off dancing in peoples' homes, dances held in regions in which instrumental players were not available were on occasion conducted against sung "Nonsense" lyrics - either lilting, or more-or-less unconnected snippets of language - Johnny Moynihan's rendition of "The Frost Is All Over" is an example. "Paddy On the Railway Picking Up Stones" - sung to the tune usually known as "The Blacksmith" is another. Another reasonably well known one is the "Gheall sí is gheall sí is gheall sí go dtiocfadh sí" sung to Ríl Mór Bhaile an Chailligh.
Slow airs are usually song tunes. The best slow air players are familiar with the Sean Nós tradition.
As an amusing aside - My great-aunt was in considerable demand as a concertina player at dances in East Galway in the early part of the last century. She gave up playing tho'. She hit 28 and figured that she was unmarried because she never got to dance with young men. It was strictly lilting in her locality thereafter.
"Irish dance music is about instrumental virtuosity."
Is it? That's a shame, if it is. It would mean there's no hope for me or anyone else I happen to know, including all of the players of ITM whose music I truly admire.
Irish diddley/dance music is about tunes. Great tunes that stand on their own. (great tunes that happen to be actually quite easy to play).
I must say that when ever I come across anyone who believes that "Irish dance music is about instrumental virtuosity", I make a beeline for the bar. There is nothing more tedious that someone ruining lovely tunes with their instrumental virtuosity.
Donal Ó Suileabháin was a proponent that Irish music had Irish lyrics (I know of more, but his book is opened before me), but thankfully the conversation has moved back to the original question. Still, if these "snippets of language" had been English and therefore better known so people would sing along, would Irish music be as fun?
It's an interesting question. I don't think I'd like them more, though.
It might be because I can play better than I can sing.
I like songs, don't get me wrong, I'll even join in if it seems the thing to do. But tunes are just another creature something wonderful, pre-verbal, at least for me. I sure don't play Cailleach An Airgead thinking "She's my granny, she's my granny, She's my granny, the hag with the money."
Lilting was also common in Scotland till halfway through the last century in communities where no-one could afford an instrument, so why didn't they just sing "the words" to the tunes assuming these existed?
Also, there are some tunes in the Irish repertoire which had English words in the first place eg, "When Sick is it Tea You Want?" and "The Jockey to the Fair" which I read somewhere was in fact a Victorian English pop song, but was preserved in the Irish tradition (as well as the English), and come to think of it The Sprig of Shillelagh is firstly an English tune called the Black Joak, or Joke (of which there are other Jokes, of different colours, from different parts of England.)
I did not mean to open *that* particular can of worms
A better encapsulation of that which I meant would be "Dance music is, of essence, instrumental in nature, featuring strong rhythm and tasteful ornamentation."
I have no time for excessively ornamented pyrotechnics or excessive speed which sacrifices rhythm.
It's easy to see how people could sing along to jigs. I've just tried it - words, not lilting - with the Mason's Apron, Colonel Frazer, the Bucks of Oranmore, and the Salamanca. Most interesting. With sustained practice, an entirely new career as a tobacco auctioneer may beckon.
popular beacuse of no lyrics?
popular beacuse of no lyrics?
Just a thought I had recently and I thought it might provoke an interesting discussion. I've noticed a lack of lyrics for many of the tunes on the site, which I am slowly chipping away at. This is probably because of the lack of Irish speakers, not that surprising, as many tunes have Irish-only lyrics.
Here's the question: If Irish tunes had lyrics in English would they be as popular as tunes without lyrics (or which English speakers assume simply don't have lyrics). If every tune was a song, would that be attractive, or would some of the simple charm of Irish music be lost. I ask this only because many of the tunes I know (Foxhunter's jig, Fanny Powers, Munster Battle Cry, Fair-haired Cannavans, Paidin O'Rafferty, when the cock crows it's day, I could go on) all have words in Irish which roll around upstairs as I play them. If all of these had English lyrics (thus making them more widely known) would everyone love a good sing-along or avoid Irish music like the plague (or like we avoid playing 'Molly Malone' and 'Whiskey in the Jar' for fear of it becoming karaoke night at the pub).
What are your opinions?
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by DonallDubh
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
I'll start the ball by saying that Irish language culture is very, very different from perceived Irish culture and that a sing along would likely never happen as a solo singer is respected above a group. That said, if these had English lyrics I do think on the one hand that they would lose a lot. But on the other had, I look at some people and give them credit because they're trying with what they have, but you can't really understand a tune if you don't know it's words. Just try listening to a karaoke tape and see how different a tune sounds (and although I brought it up twice, no I do not karaoke sing). However, I get a sick feeling whenever we have to play (with no words) something like 'rattlin' bog' as I really hate those pubby songtunes, and I would be afraid that English lyrics would do this to all of the tunes.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by DonallDubh
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
popular because of no lyrics... sometimes due to the fact that you can't do your voice in with tunes as you can with songs... mine's gone at the moment. Don't know why.... but I'm sticking to only tunes at the moment
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by camwebby
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
I'm just curious to know how the words fit in with all these peoples' variations ?
Some tunes may have words, yes. But we should remember that, as O'Neill called it, this is The Dance Music of Ireland. Not The Tunes of the Songs of Ireland. We've got far enough disassociated from the dance already, just sitting playing the tunes in a corner of a bar, that when someone gets up and dances it's a surprise. When someone will do a song in a session, it's not often one that we also play as a tune.
While we're on the subject, has anyone got the ( modern ) words to Whisk(e)y before Breakfast ?
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
Sidestepping from the question a little, the relationship between dance music and song in the Irish tradition (and other traditions) is something I would like to know more about. My current (uneducated) thinking is that many dance tunes were originally song airs, adapted by musicians to accompany dancing. As many musicians would independently have set the same air to dance rhythms, each putting their own creative spin on it, one air could have given rise to a multitude of dance tunes.
My knowledge of the Irish language is limited to a handful of words and phrases. But I get the impression that most Irish songs set to metric melodies are of a more light-hearted nature that the great Sean Nos songs, from which most slow airs are derived. I suspect that many of these are actually verse set to pre-existing dance tunes. But I could be barking up the wrong tree.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by granama
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
...It is of note that many traditions have a much closer association between song and dance, dances often being danced to songs. I wonder whether this association was once stronger in Ireland. I remember reading Elizabeth Crotty's comments on a particular tune, which she learned from an old woman (Mrs. Lillis) who used to sing words to it, and danced as she sang it.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by granama
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
At a festival last year in Cancale, Brittany I was stunned by the sheer stamina of two women who sang solidly for an hour for dancing and this out of doors. The tunes were grand and all that would be expected of a 'dance' tune (be it reel or jig, although they danced in the round with singers in the centre) with the added bonus of a song!
I was told this is not uncommon...
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by john knoss
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
I has been theorizied by many a scholar that the older tunes all had words which have been lost. Only recent creations have gone without lyrics. And as to songs being not commonly played I would have to say that many slip jigs do have lyrics still (such as 'drops of brandy').
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by DonallDubh
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
'It has been theorised by many a scholar that the older tunes all had words which have been lost.'
Who? Where? When? I've never read any such suggestion. Please identify at least one 'scholar' who has claimed such.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
If it was "theorised that the older tunes all had words which have been lost", how could they hypothesise that in the absence of words which may or may not have been there in the first place? It is difficult to make useful deductions in the absence of evidence.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
There are songs sung to dance tunes (or versions thereof - often the song versions are stuctured slightly differenty to accommodate refrains, uneven stanzas etc.) and song airs used as dance tunes. Which way round it happened probably depends on the individual case. But there has, at some time, clearly been a tendency for people marry verse with dance tunes. At a time when the dance music repertoire of a given locality was much smaller than it is today*, it is not inconceivable that all the tunes might have had words - not that everybody would necessarily have known them.
*I make the assumption that there was such a time?
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by granama
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
Not really. Irish dance music is about instrumental virtuosity.
I think I can account for the misapprehension, though. Before the infamous Public Dance Halls Act killed off dancing in peoples' homes, dances held in regions in which instrumental players were not available were on occasion conducted against sung "Nonsense" lyrics - either lilting, or more-or-less unconnected snippets of language - Johnny Moynihan's rendition of "The Frost Is All Over" is an example. "Paddy On the Railway Picking Up Stones" - sung to the tune usually known as "The Blacksmith" is another. Another reasonably well known one is the "Gheall sí is gheall sí is gheall sí go dtiocfadh sí" sung to Ríl Mór Bhaile an Chailligh.
Slow airs are usually song tunes. The best slow air players are familiar with the Sean Nós tradition.
As an amusing aside - My great-aunt was in considerable demand as a concertina player at dances in East Galway in the early part of the last century. She gave up playing tho'. She hit 28 and figured that she was unmarried because she never got to dance with young men. It was strictly lilting in her locality thereafter.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
"Irish dance music is about instrumental virtuosity."
Is it? That's a shame, if it is. It would mean there's no hope for me or anyone else I happen to know, including all of the players of ITM whose music I truly admire.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
Hmmm yes, that one made me tut and shake my head.
Irish diddley/dance music is about tunes. Great tunes that stand on their own. (great tunes that happen to be actually quite easy to play).
I must say that when ever I come across anyone who believes that "Irish dance music is about instrumental virtuosity", I make a beeline for the bar. There is nothing more tedious that someone ruining lovely tunes with their instrumental virtuosity.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
Donal Ó Suileabháin was a proponent that Irish music had Irish lyrics (I know of more, but his book is opened before me), but thankfully the conversation has moved back to the original question. Still, if these "snippets of language" had been English and therefore better known so people would sing along, would Irish music be as fun?
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by DonallDubh
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
or are we generally antisocial and don't want tunes people can sing to?
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by DonallDubh
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
It's an interesting question. I don't think I'd like them more, though.
It might be because I can play better than I can sing.
I like songs, don't get me wrong, I'll even join in if it seems the thing to do. But tunes are just another creature something wonderful, pre-verbal, at least for me. I sure don't play Cailleach An Airgead thinking "She's my granny, she's my granny, She's my granny, the hag with the money."
And playing tunes is wonderfully social.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by fidkid
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
Lilting was also common in Scotland till halfway through the last century in communities where no-one could afford an instrument, so why didn't they just sing "the words" to the tunes assuming these existed?
Also, there are some tunes in the Irish repertoire which had English words in the first place eg, "When Sick is it Tea You Want?" and "The Jockey to the Fair" which I read somewhere was in fact a Victorian English pop song, but was preserved in the Irish tradition (as well as the English), and come to think of it The Sprig of Shillelagh is firstly an English tune called the Black Joak, or Joke (of which there are other Jokes, of different colours, from different parts of England.)
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
Instrumental virtuosity -
I did not mean to open *that* particular can of worms
A better encapsulation of that which I meant would be "Dance music is, of essence, instrumental in nature, featuring strong rhythm and tasteful ornamentation."
I have no time for excessively ornamented pyrotechnics or excessive speed which sacrifices rhythm.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
It's easy to see how people could sing along to jigs. I've just tried it - words, not lilting - with the Mason's Apron, Colonel Frazer, the Bucks of Oranmore, and the Salamanca. Most interesting. With sustained practice, an entirely new career as a tobacco auctioneer may beckon.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
My, there's some real bollix on this thread!
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: popular beacuse of no lyrics?
Yessir. That'd be me. Well known for it.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Sean Lead Liath