Say you were cornered or asked to describe this act, in it's worst ways and in its possibly more constructive and considerate uses ~ or to teach it? ~ along with how to not be irritating to the point of having your instrument or life under threat, or your life threatened with your instrument...
I'm sorry, but I feel I must commit murder. There's no use trying to talk me out of it. Can anybody help me with ways that I could make it less offensive? Would calling it traditional murder help?
For starters ~ doing it 'quietly', while listening intently... This requires that you already have a clear relationship with and sense of your instrument, that you can hear internally rather than feeling you need to actually move your bow and bring the strings into vibration and sound, or put air through your whistle or flute, or move your bellows. I've watched older and younger musicians finger a tune without moving the bow, and able to eventually pull out of the air with their ears the melody being played by others. I've done it myself, both to remember ~ and to learn a new tune ~ QUIETLY!!! Sometimes it helps to just start from the tonic, say a G tune is being played, you think G drone, and I don't mean playing it, though I've seen that happen to, then you work up to shorter groupings, 2 bar, 1 bar, 1 beat, and the note that predominates there, then you start to fill in the rest of the melody. With experience this can happen in a short amount of time. Zen and the art of noodling...
Noodling is what guitarists do when they practise a few fancy chord progressions between sets with no actual tune in mind. Learning a tune on the fly is different, and with a fiddle pressed to your ear, bowing quietly, you can generally pick up on a new tune without annoying anyone. Loudly joining in straightaway when you don't really know a tune is not a recipe for good will and general happiness, and if you play a full-on instrument like the pipes, you can't really do this. But if someone wants to introduce a new tune they can't blame other session players if they want to see if they can pick it up. It is a session after all, not a "performance". The thing is to do it subtlely and give up if you know you're not going to get it. If I play a tune no-one else knows I'd much rather hear people having a go at joining in.
Agreed and well put RichardB... One ear next to your instrument, with it 'muted', is what I recommend to budding bodhranistas as an occassional practice. Mostly I tell them to just listen...and to learn a melody instrument...
I have been in the presence of a gifted few musicians who were able to pick up a tune on the fly in a session just by noodling along. By the third pass, they had the tune at full speed. This skill was usually based upon decades of ear training and immersion in this music, coupled with the fact that they were musically gifted freaks. My guess is they represent about %5 of the overall session population. Meanwhile the rest of the mortal world, noodling is usually an obnoxious disruption based on an uncontrollable desire to play on every tune and utter ignorance to the havoc they are causing to other players around them.
There has to be a better word for it, I agree. It's really not noodling as noodling has come to be known. Some other form of pasta, perhaps?
Well described here though! That's pretty much what I'd tell them. Play only what you know, as quietly and gently as possible, and then listen to the rest and try to make sense of it without playing. You can't hear what's going on and process it properly if you're busy playing notes that are not the tune.
Doing what? randomly flayling around hoping you hit the right note? Or only playing the notes/phrases you do know and miming or even just thinking about the other bits until you know them? (it's amazing how quickly you can fill in the gaps if you resist the temptation to guess)
There is a world of difference between the two. It's the difference between noodling and learning a tune on the fly.
Llig - it might be helpful for some if you could elaborate on the difference between "learning on the fly" and "noodling" along until you learn the tune.
One is when someone riffs away with funky chords or intervals that sound bad, demonstrating they have no idea what a session is.
The other is when the sessioners attempt to learn new tunes on the fly.
I think the second one is common and expected at a session. I can't tell you how many tunes end with someone saying "One more time through and I would have had that one."
If you can learn tunes on the fly, you'll have the most fun at the session. It's already been described how to do it discreetly. I do it on my flute. Everybody says they can't hear me so I go ahead and play it loud enough that I can hear it. I see the fiddlers do it with tiny bow movements that don't make any sound. The whistler is like magic. He just launches right in after a moment of though and already can play a tune he doesn't know.
The fiddler doesn't even have to use the bow if their bowing is up to spec. It suffices just to use the fingers on the string to learn the tune pattern. On the few occasions when I've started off a tune which few of those present are likely to know I'll play it at least three times to give everyone a chance.
And often you don't even need the fingers on the strings, just thinking about it is enough. It's really not that hard to listen hard to a tune the first time through, imagine yourself playing it the next time through, And play it the third time through. It depends on the tune of course.
I always encourage people to learn tunes on the fly (especially at my local sessions).
People who are new to that tend to flail around a lot and hit lots of bum notes. So I hosted a monthly tune learning session, in people's living rooms rather than in a public place. And I encouraged people to practice learning by ear from recordings (one way that recordings can be useful).
Simple fact is that you can't get adept at learning tunes on the fly without doing it. Makes sense to practice it first at home or at a tune learning session. If someone is struggling with it, I recommend spending some focused time learning to accurately hear pitch intervals. And then some focused time without an instrument learning to pick up tunes by ear by lilting them.
Assuming you have the chops down on your chosen instrument, and you've spent a few thousand hours listening to this music the way a bloodhound follows a scent trail, then picking up tunes on the fly by ear isn't that difficult.
A few rules of thumb:
Listen the first time through for the overall contour or shape of the tune. Where does it go up and where does it go down. Where does it circle on itself around a particular note or cluster of notes (I tend to hear chord progressions and that helps me understand where my fingers would go on fiddle, narrowing the note choices).
Also figure out the tonal center or home note of the tune--all the other notes you'll play should be heard in relation to that home note.
While you're focused on that, your brain will almost subliminally register all the cliche phrases that comprise many tunes. Stuff like |G2 Bg dGBG| or |DFAF BFAF| etc. You can play these stock phrases while listening and thinking ahead to what's coming next.
As you hear the tune again, listen to the bits you missed the first time around and lilt them in your mind. Your fingers may get only a couple notes out of a phrase, but if they etch themselves on your brain, your fingers will know where to go next time.
With practice, all of this gets easier, more familiar. If I can learn to do it, anyone can. Your ability to discern intervals and basic pitch will improve the more you use these skills. Your aural memory will improvie the more you exercise it. As will your ability to think musically on your feet.
Yes, it can be easier to do this unobtrusively on a fiddle or mandolin. But one of my session mates is a whistle player who picks up tunes on the fly all the time without bothering anyone. She clearly has a knack for it, but it's also the only way she learns tunes (she doesn't read notation), so she's spent her life honing those ear learning skills. If you can play a musical instrument, you can learn to pick up tunes by ear on the fly.
"Noodling is randomly flayling around hoping you hit the right note"
This was news to me when I read something like it on another thread. I had considered it extremely rare at most sessions.
Before my discovery I would have said I 'noodled'. By this I meant i would play part of a tune between sets while other players chatted. . . Or play an entire tune if someone took it upon themselves to present a PSA.
When I do not know a tune I will sometimes play the root note (tonal center) when it came up & then other notes which would fall on the downbeat. It helps me hear the key or mode. I do this more as a drone than as a harmony.
Excuse me ceolachan.
Lately I have been learning "Bucks of Oranmore" http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2
From some of the descriptions above would this be a good example of a tune to learn on the fly, in session, or not?
To noodle or not to noodle ~ that is the question.
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
Well said gang, lovely to follow the thought processes here, the variety included.
Yes, I realize that, as Eejit says, noodling can be ~ "-an obnoxious disruption based on an uncontrollable desire to play on every tune and utter ignorance to the havoc they are causing to other players around them."
That is the one extreme, where, SWFL's contribution ~ "You can't hear what's going on and process it properly if you're busy playing notes that are not the tune."
Dear Llig, what I'd meant by ~ "doing it 'quietly', while listening intently" ~ was doing it without noise Llig, or, actually along the lines of your fine description ~ "-playing the notes/phrases you do know and miming or even just thinking about the other bits until you know them?" & YES!!! ~ It is "amazing how quickly you can fill in the gaps if you resist the temptation to guess"!!!
That's it...
& Hounddog gives it another specific form ~ "The fiddler doesn't even have to use the bow if their bowing is up to spec. It suffices just to use the fingers on the string to learn the tune pattern. On the few occasions when I've started off a tune which few of those present are likely to know I'll play it at least three times to give everyone a chance."
Having buried myself in music for the last couple of weeks, I can say that a hell of a lot of older players gave it more than just three times through, and for me I loved it...
Will comes closest to my lesson plan ~ "I recommend spending some focused time learning to accurately hear pitch intervals. And then some focused time without an instrument learning to pick up tunes by ear by lilting them." & "I tend to hear chord progressions and that helps me understand where my fingers would go on fiddle, narrowing the note choices." & "Also figure out the tonal center or home note of the tune--all the other notes you'll play should be heard in relation to that home note."
Yes! ~ Listen first!!! ~ during and last also...
& Muse too ~ "I will sometimes play the root note (tonal center) when it came up & then other notes which would fall on the downbeat. It helps me hear the key or mode. I do this more as a drone than as a harmony."
I pick up a tune a lot quicker in my head, and via lilting, than any other way, even better if I'm also dancing while I lilt. Working up a plan to include some understanding of this process of 'directed noodling' in a series of classes I begin with recognizing key and the root or tonic. I've even taught a tune, or one part of a tune, like an A-part, completely stripped down and starting with a tonic drone and then slowly working it into something more. From a long 8 count drone, one A-part played in the background, I start breaking it up into phrases, 4 bar long drones, then 2-bar, then one note per measure, then one note per beat. I've also done something like this orally, singing it, or lilting, though you couldn't really call droning liliting. It's an exercise in finding the heart of the tune both rythmically and melodically. When I've been daft enough to spring this on those subject to my whims, me doing the teaching, we've had a good laugh, but what is interesting is how well they know the tune and retain it afterwards.
I in no way advocate clueless noodling bereft of sense or consideration. It is always a topic I address when teaching ~ amongst other things 'NOT TO DO!' But I think part of the joy is when you start to develop this sense and ability too. What better evidence that your ears have it? I also think, along with what Will & Muse and others have said, that you can acquire develop this wonderful gift...in a way that won't bring the wrath of Llig down on your head...
The understanding gained this way is not just about 'noodling', it also opens up an better understanding of how you can vary or ornament a melody ~ and how you can destroy one. I've taken the same example and rolled every beat of the tune, just to show how awful it is. But, also to show that you can find that option almost anywhere, appropriate or not. It isn't just about those possibilities, for wind players it can also open up a better understanding of what to do with the need to breath, or the use of pauses and silences by other instruments where they haven't that added consideration. Silence, or lying on a note for a count or more, are also part of what can give this music lift and interest...
Wait, I'm confused, is "noodling" the little tuning check pattern that people tend to come up with? Is it the playing of tune snippets between sets to see if you can remember a tune (or see if someone else will pick up on it and turn it into actually playing the tune)? Or is it learning tunes on the fly, and stabbing at notes?
I think we need new words to describe each of these actions so that we can avoid future confusion...
Hopefully I don't have to re-think the "Want some sauce for those noodles" tee-shirt I designed. ("Want some sauce for while you attempt to learn that tune on the fly" doesn't have quite the same ring)
ceolachan - I couldn't agree more with your lilting descriptions. I will often lilt along quietly on tunes I do not know until the melody starts to saturate the synapses. After a while the melody starts to work it's way down to my fingers and I find I can play correct snippets of the tune on my instrument. Then, after consulting a recording or two, and working on the tune on my own, I find I have it pretty well by the next session - That is a close to "learning on the fly" as I will ever get.
Reverend, I think Llig accurately described the differences between noodling and learning on the fly above. Someone who loudly searches for notes on a tune they do not know to the detriment and distraction of the other players is a noodler.
The problem with noodling is that the noodler usually overestimates their capabilities at the expense of other musicians around them who actually know the tune and are trying to play it. Most musicians are out for a good time and don't want to have to tell anyone that they’re annoying them with their noodling, so they usually are polite and keep it to themselves. If a musician does attempt to inform an over-confident noodler that their efforts are putting them off -- the offender is often perceived as the victim... so it's not worth it.
Personally I think it’s too risky and you might be wearing the emperor’s new clothes if you endeavor to noodle out tunes on the fly at sessions. I know what it’s like to sit near noodlers at sessions and I wouldn’t want to be putting people off the tune. It’s far more constructive to first allow enough time to get the tune in my head before I attempt it on the instrument – especially in public. Not only that, but it’s easier to learn as well.
But the compulsion to play along with every tune at sessions is overwhelming for a lot of people I suppose and can easily displace their consideration for the effect their noodling might have on their fellow musicians. When you combine that with the fact that most musicians are too polite to attempt to do anything about errant noodling it seems like something that we will ultimately just have to live with. It comes down to each individual’s sense of common decency to determine for themselves whether or not they should noodle.
We've been round and round on this before, but I think it's important to balance PB's concerns with a different attitude toward people picking up tunes at sessions. They are sessions, after all (not performances), so why not let people stretch their wings a bit instead of always staying within their comfort zones lest the music lose its sheen.
The surest way to end up in a session full of people who cannot pick up tunes on the fly (and so are condemned to "noodling" if they ever try) is to inhibit or prohibit anyone from actually doing this quintessential skill of the traditional musician.
In short, perhaps the reason no one at PB's session can pick up tunes on the fly well (except for one or two alleged savants) is that it is so frowned upon to even try. Just a hypothesis, not meant at all to cast aspersions.
But consider another option. In my small-town, small-circle session of 5 melody players (featuring flute, fiddle, whistle, and button box), four of the five (80%!!!) of us can and routinely do pick up tunes on the fly at our session. And the fifth one is doing it now, too, with encouragement, and has suprised himself with his own latent ability.
Sure, if you're new to a session and they make it clear that no learning- tunes-on-the-fly is allowed, bend to their code. It's only polite.
But if I have a choice, I'd MUCH rather play at a session where picking up tunes is part of the craic and interplay, and the music still sounds grand.
The benefits of this approach are that:
- people learn to pick up tunes by ear and in real time. This is a good skill to have when playing music in an aural tradition.
- people also learn how to carry a tune despite an occasional blooper from someone else. This comes in handy when playing for dancers, in noisy pubs, at stage gigs, etc.
- we all learn each other's repertoires, even as they grow week to week. No worries about ending up a month of tunes behind everyone else.
- our collective pool of tunes grows with input from everyone, and we have a wide variety of tunes to pull from each week. No stale session sets.
- when a vistor sits in, people can pick up and play the newcomer's tunes, helping them feel included.
- people are adept at playing sets by the seat of their pants, without prearranging them. The changes tend to go smoothly, even when unpredictable, which is exciting and fun.
- when you DO play a gig with arranged sets, it's a cake walk, easy peasy, so everyone can relax, play to their best ability, and enjoy the gig.
Dunno, maybe it's just me, but a lot of these benefits are what sessions are all about....
I've always refered to the daft little bits of tunes people try to work up and that really annoying guitar thing where strummers try out their latest "progressions" in between sets as "faffing"
One of the real excitements of accomplishment in this music is finding that you can ~ pick up a tune on the fly, whether that's a hang glider or a Lear Jet. But as Will suggests, it takes practice, it takes consideration too, from both sides. Support and direction will usually result in a positive outcome. It also is unwise to just sit and fester when something is getting in the way of your collective enjoyment of the music. I think it is how you go about it, and the problems are one or the other, usually, either someone who is naive but with a little comment and help can gain a better understanding, or someone who is a nutter, convinced of their superior abilities ~ and really, aren't we all much better off with such yahoos redirected out the door to found their own little thiefdom of music?
"Faffing" ~ there's another word for it, exchanging 'aff' for three other letters that end with a 'ck'. However, my wife doesn't like me to use that word...
'Learning tunes on the fly' ~ by ear and with experience and understanding rather than by accident...
The worst noodlers I've known, well, one class of worst, are those that haven't a clue what the melody is and decide to 'harmonize', whatever instrument they are abusing... That, I can unreservedly say ~ I HATE!!!
Will CPT, I think everyone is basically on the same page here. But my guess is, when someone in your group noodles a few phrases to learn a tune, they are not disrupting the concentration and enjoyment of others around them, right? I think that is the main argument I have against most folks who are poor noodlers - they disrupt the session.
JNE, no one at my session "noodles a few phrases." Not for long anyway, because we don't put up with random faffing. No, they play the tune. Nearly everyone does something similar--they listen to the tune one time around (usually sussing out the tonal center and general contour), then they play the bits that stick the second time around. On the third go, they're filling in the rest. It;s not unusual for someone to ask for it a fourth or fifth time if they don't have it all yet. And we'll even use the lull between sets to ask about a particular phrase or variation.
Obviously, we spend most of the evening playing tunes we all know, so it's not like people are constantly learning tunes on the fly. It's at most a handful of tunes on any given night, and sometimes none at all.
And because our session works this way, we're not easily distracted when someone fluffs a note or phrase. We can carry the music through pretty much anything. It doesn't spoil our fun or our enjoyment of the music. This is a strength that I've often found missing in players who never abide any learning-on-the-fly. I'd rather be like those folks on the cell phone clip who not only kept playing but hustled over to the offending cell phone user and made a ruckus, all in sport, without the music falling apart.
And no, I don't think all of us are on the same page. I think it's a shame when learning-on-the-fly is discouraged within this tradition. The vast majority of great players I've been lucky enough to sit in with have always encouraged it, welcomed it, even. And I've heard less experienced players egged into trying it even though their attempts aren't much better than noodling or faffing. "You can't learn it if you don't do it," I've heard many times at sessions.
Certainly rank beginners are better off building some skill at this in private, preferably with an able friend or in lessons. But anyone with some years of wallowing in all these tunes and playing their instrument up to snuff ought to be encouraged to learn tunes on the fly. Pick one unfamilar tune at your next session and give it a whirl. Don't try it with every new tune that comes along that session--just one, for starters. Be discreet. You might ask first if it's okay to try. And keep a sense of humor about it--it's supposed to be fun.
"But anyone with some years of wallowing in all these tunes and playing their instrument up to snuff ought to be encouraged to learn tunes on the fly."
This is the KEY statement CPT, and my rant is directed squarely at those who have not done any of the things you mention, yet prattle along playing competing notes in the hopes they might accidently slide across a correct one. Someone genuinely immersed in the tradition learning tunes on the fly is a far and distant cry from a someone searching loudly for notes, or worse, some Bluegrasser who thinks they can just sit in and "jam along." As I mentioned in a few above posts, I pick up many tunes at my sessions "on the fly" but do not attempt to play them out loud until I have a firm mental grasp of the melody. So yes, at the end of all this battle of semantics, I think we are indeed on the same page.
Consider this actual scenario that happened a while back. We were having a session that included a world-class player from Ireland and it had various local very accomplished musicians in attendance, one of which prided himself on his abilities to pick up tunes on the fly. This particular player had himself gained an international reputation as an ITM player and no one questioned his proclaimed abilities... except me... but I kept it to myself. At one point during the session when the visiting musician was playing a semi-obscure tune, our local luminary was "picking it up on the fly" and the visiting player stopped and turned to him saying, "Do you know this tune?" And the local luminary responded with, "I heard it before." to which the visitor said, "Well could you please stop noodling because it's putting me off." Then the visitor resumed playing and the local left out of embarrassment and anger. Of course everyone rallied around the local player, and after the visitor left town he was accused of being "elitist" etc., but I secretly agreed with him. That same local player will show up now and then and noodle in the same way he always has convinced that he's spot on -- and it still puts me off... but I dare not say anything.
So what I get from some of the comments in this thread is that it’s a deficiency on my part that I’m put off by people picking up tunes on the fly, or noodling.
Will writes: "In short, perhaps the reason no one at PB's session can pick up tunes on the fly well (except for one or two alleged savants) is that it is so frowned upon to even try."
Of course, according to theory, if these people were really successful at doing such a thing – I wouldn’t notice it. But the conclusion seems to be that it’s my fault if noodling puts me off, and the noodler is cool, and people that show up at sessions I’m at are unfortunate to have to put up with my deficiencies or irrational intolerance.
No button, it's your fault for "keeping it to yourself" and "secretly agreeing".
One of the reasons people get away with noodling is 'cause no-one has the courage too tell to 'em to "button it".
Keep in mind the difference. If you notice someone noodling, then, by definition, they are. So tell 'em. To successfully learn tunes in a session, it must appear that you just miraculously pluck them out of the ether
No, you can definitely tell when someone is learning a tune on the fly, even when they're doing it well and discreetly. In fact, it's their discretion that draws attention because they're aren't at full volume and there will be gaps where they haven't sussed out the notes yet.
After years of sitting in with people who pick up tunes this way, I can't say I've ever felt it was distracting, and I've never run into a player worth his salt who would stop someone from doing this at a session. As I said above, I've sat in with some well-known A-tier players who've all welcomed (and in some cases even insisted) that others learn a tune on the fly.
Jack, it sounds like yer man who claims the ability isn't even going about it in a healthy way--not only is he not actually getting the tune on the fly, but he's apparently playing indiscreetly enough to annoy you and others in the circle.
That's NOT learning tunes on the fly. That's noodling, which you have every right to put a stop to. Rather than suffer it in silence, if I were in your shoes (those would be big shoes to fill), I'd privately offer some tips on how to learn on the fly. And if he kept noodling, never improving, I'd *tell* him to stop.
JNE, some of what I've just typed here gets at your example of a bluegrasser who noodles all over the tunes, too. But I still think it's more than just semantics. Some sessions are very tolerant of people fumbling the notes now and then, whether playing tunes they allegedly already know or learning on the fly. Some sessions are far less tolerant, aiming for something closer to music with no audible imperfections. Either of these is fine, if that's what the participants want their session to be. I enjoy both types of sessions. But I prefef a blend of the two--good musicians well steeped in the music who really don't give a damn about a few clinkers or someone working out a tune on the fly.
Yes, I'm glad Llig said it, as that was what I was thinking, in general.
Button: "So what I get from some of the comments in this thread is that it’s a deficiency on my part that I’m put off by people picking up tunes on the fly, or noodling. - if these people were really successful at doing such a thing – I wouldn’t notice it. But the conclusion seems to be that it’s my fault if noodling puts me off, and the noodler is cool, and people that show up at sessions I’m at are unfortunate to have to put up with my deficiencies or irrational intolerance."
NO, NOOOO, NOOOOOOO!!!
Learn the difference, and have the balls to pick up that aspect from your visiting 'world-class player' ~ to be able to say when appropriate ~
"-could you please stop noodling because it's putting me off."
That seems more than fair and reasonable. If someone is putting you off and cramping your enjoyment of this music, say something. Don't stew over it and hold it inside to fester...
But I'm still very much in Will's camp, as far as his clear explanation, and as also stated by others, there is a BIG difference, BIG differences between the irritating act of doing it loudly and intrusively and with out respect or understanding of the music or the dynamics of the gathering you're present in. I think that is why it isn't such a bad idea to deal with it in a class or workshop environment. I don't shy away from dealing with 'session' as an important subject for discussion where any promotion of this music takes place.
But back to Will ~ "You can't learn it if you don't do it!"
This applies to dance too. You have to give it a try or you'll never make it at all. That doesn't mean you start out beating your feet against the floor. You start out softly, receptively, and slowly you acquire your legs. Yes, there will be the occassional mishap, and yes, some people have more than others. Some are akin to swinging around a sack of potatoes. But, with us anyway, the welcome remains open and understanding, as it was with those that invited me into their dance or their music. I never felt judged or excluded. But, I never pushed forward either. I listened, I asked, I took suggestions and direction with attention... That respect of the thing and the people involved in it, is paramount. 'Noodling' in the worst sense is disrespectul and discourteous. It is rude. It doesn't deserve consideration ~ but understanding it might. As said, 'noodlers' are not always aware of what they do, those that do it intrusively. If you ignore it, say with a beginner or the naive, they might grow into the noodling monster you now have in your session Button. In a sense your lack of willingness to confront the problem has helped to maintain it and allow it to grow in stature and irritation...
But then, I'm not necessarily the bravest person to be saying this... So, instead, I deal with it from the start, whenever I'm teaching an instrumental class. But I also deal with the equivalent when teaching dance ~ steps or figures... Any YES, there are equivalents... I also am not shy when it comes to trying to reduce those acts of disrespect by being outspoken, where I'm involved integrally in the event, as you seem to be in yours...
I would generally say that people that have the ability to pick up tunes on the fly need to *pick and choose* their times to do it. I do it occasionally, but generally only with tunes I've heard a number of times, but never tried playing.
But I wouldn't even consider doing it in a session with people that I never play with, unless I was encouraged to do so. The only time I ever do it is when I'm playing with people that I'm familiar with, and at least pretty darn sure that we're close enough that they'd tell me to shut up if I was bothering them.
Doing it (to show off?) in front of a "world class player from Ireland" would be plain stupid. Mind you, I don't consider myself as having an "international reputation" either (unless you consider that one incident in Killarney...)
The proudest moment for me is when I see those I've taught, music or dance, exercising patience and care with someone new, or less capable. I've seen a set or session worth of folks welcome others in that are less capable, and with their care and skill being able to carry any problems with good humour. That way is the way that helps to build confidence and skill in others. You can't progress in anything without confindence ~ and some direction...
We also have those that will probably never quite get it, the music or the dance, but there are enough of us about who can carry it off and carry them along with us. I have an older friend who's memory is going, badly, music and dance, and I still am honoured to share either with him. We always make sure he is opposite us in the dance, if we can, because we know we can manage, whatever goes amiss. I also have learned to follow him even if he does get the parts screwed up, or loses it, or repeats the same tune or set several times in a sitting. It is his company and humour I value. The hiccups are not a problem, for me anyway...
Good point, made by Will and others ~ for those that can, it is the occassional tune, or not at all. The hell of one type of 'worst case' noodler is the one that does it for almost everything, all the time, or nearly all the time, and loudly. Some do it even with tunes they claim to know... That is a situation where something really does have to be said, as Llig and probably the rest of us know, from experience... Serious intrusions like that should not be tolerated...
"The only time I ever do it is when I'm playing with people that I'm familiar with, and at least pretty darn sure that we're close enough that they'd tell me to shut up if I was bothering them." ~ Reverend
Amen to Reverend's point. The fact that Button's man noodled over a visiting illuminary really says it all--he's feckin clueless. Instead of storming out, he should have appoligzed profusely and bought a round for everyone.
I should no because I did that once. I noodled all over a wonderful tune Eliot (our Eliot of the mustard board, he of the math Ph.D. and knack for sussing the odds) was playing at a house session. Eliot definitely qualifies as a luminary (and a gracious one at that) in my book. He paused long enough to tell me to shut the feck up. It was shortly thereafter that I tallied up how much I'd had to drink that day and it came to something like a shot glass shy of oblivion. For that, I apologize.
For me, 'c's story about his awkward dancing friend and my own story on myself are important reminders that a session (or a dance) is supposed to be sociable and fun. We're human, mistakes happen, foibles rise to the surface. If you want to avoid all that, host a private session or play in a band (good luck). But if you have a session (not a gig) in a pub, accept that hiccups and occasional burps, farts, and worse are part of the ride and learn to enjoy yourself and your companions regardless.
Ceol writes: "Learn the difference, and have the balls to pick up that aspect from your visiting 'world-class player' ~ to be able to say when appropriate ~
"-could you please stop noodling because it's putting me off."
~~~
This is what he did, and I told you what happened. It wasn't pretty. When you DO speak up the other people in the session tend to sympathize with the noodler and they’ll consider you an “elitist” or a "snob" for speaking up.
Weren't you better off with the luminary free to play and the tosser gone out the door?
Maybe another way to look at it is you're in the minority at your own session. If most of the people don't mind noodling of that caliber, maybe you need to start a different session with the standard more clearly set.
Erm, I only say that because that's what we did here--after getting no where with diplomacy, a few of us started another session. When one of the worst noodlers (more like basher) invited himself in, he was told to feck off. Worked like a charm.
In fact, it sounds like this noodler did what he did because the session allowed--even accepted--it. So a visitor was put off because no one ever stopped the noodler before. That's a shame.
And again, if people think noodling is "learning tunes on the fly," then they'll never actually learn how to learn tunes on the fly. So it's a vicious circle.
BTW, Jack, I apologize for throwing what looks like a crapper full of unsolicited advice at you. I don't think you were looking for any advice at all. But really, all I'm doing is thinking out loud about the situation you've described and pondering how we've dealt with similar issues. Sorry if it comes across as Dear Abby-ish.
The session in question was in honor of the visiting musician and in a private residence. I have indeed made it known locally that I don't appreciate people learning tunes on the fly if it disrupts the flow of the music. I'm not trying to win any popularity contests -- I just want to enjoy a few tunes with my friends and whomever else happens by.
Three of us got together a few nights ago for some tunes. A knowledgeable fiddler and I (I play flute and concertina) and another fiddler. The first fiddler and I were playing Princess Royale - not a very obscure tune. All night long the second fiddler had been plucking the strings, fiddle held like a mandolin, on tunes she didn't know.
On this tune I found her formless plucking too distracting to continue. I stopped and politely but firmly said, "Please don't do that." She looked startled, but stopped her noodling.
I hope she's reading this and will understand why we'll never invite her over again for some tunes. I'll be leaving town soon so there's no point in confronting her. But perhaps other noodlers will realize how distracting and unpleasant noodling can be.
The other thing I might note is that even * when* I do it, about 75% of the time, I get a clue that what I'm trying isn't cutting it, and I shut up all on my own, because it's annoying *me*, even though I'm probably more sensitive about it than the other players there are...
The point is to be aware of what you're doing, just like you should be when playing tunes you know.
And speaking of that, there are numerous times that I don't play a tune I actually *know*, because I don't want to interrupt a nice groove that other players have happening...
My hunch is that people who noodle are uncomfortable if their not playing on nearly every tune. This isn't necessarily a conscious thing, but rather a compulsion. At least that's what it seemed to be with me. After becoming aware of the effect my noodling (learning tunes on the fly) was having on my fellow musicians, I decided to stop doing it. I would be sitting and listening and my arms would actually start to pick up the instrument and start playing like an errant child. I would have to consciously stop myself from doing it. Eventually I learned to relax and the compulsion went away. Now I learn tunes at sessions by listening and I don't attempt them on the instrument until the tune is well in my head.
When visiting ITM luminaries visit our sessions I notice they tend to sit and listen to tunes they don't know. Has anyone ever seen people at a world-class level noodling?
(I see noodling and learning tunes on the fly as being synonymous. If someone actually can learn tunes on the fly successfully it won’t sound like they’re noodling -- it will just sound like they’re playing the tune.)
I'm afraid we have some world class noodlers over here --let me know if you'd like to come visit and I'll make sure they all show up to demonstrate their collective cluelessness! That said, a few stern reprimands seems to have made all the difference in the world. (Of course, there are exceptions to the rule)
Well, it'd be impossible to learn a tune you never heard before on the fly, I would imagine. When I try to 'learn a tune on the fly' or whatever phrase we're using to avoid the never ending confusion between that and noodling, it's to one I've heard before and it's in my head already. I know there are some amazing brains in the world that can sit down and pick out a tune they've never heard before, but doing what I'm talking about here is not, for me, done to tunes I've never heard before. It's part of the normal learning process. "Oh man, there's that tune I've heard Bob play at the last few sessions. Yup, oh...yup, OK. There's that little part, and...oh, yup, OK, I bet I got that little part there, let me try it...yup, sure enough, OK, now what comes next? [listens closely] Oh, OK...uh-huh, I think I got it here..."
I mean, if you're one of those amazing people who can sit down, hear something the first time ever in their lives and play it correctly 'on the fly', well howza bout dat? Fair play to ya.
I think the vast majority of us should NOT be playing along to tunes we don't know, but that's not what most of us are talking about on this thread. What I'm espousing is learning on the fly tunes you sort of know by playing those parts you do know, quietly and without annoying anyone, and listening intently to the remainder. Like Llig says you just may surprise yourself by picking out the rest. Or not, it may be next week when Bob plays it again, but you're getting there without ticking off Bob.
I'd love to say that every tune I've heard someone play that I wanted to learn, I've recorded, or asked the name of, etc. That's in magical perfect world land. In reality, there's a million of them I've heard a few times which stuck in my brain and then get dredged up when someone plays it again, and off we go. "I know this part, that part, what's that part again?" Stop playing, listen, "Oh yeah!" etc. etc.
I think it's pretty clear what we're talking about at this point. Is there still confusion?
The best cure for noodling is to sit in with a ceili band playing for set-dancers, when it's outside your area and they're playing a fair proportion of tunes you don't know. You either shut up or you play, and the magic thing is that under those circumstances you actually do play the tunes in real time at dance speed. Whether you can remember and play those tunes the next day at home is an entirely different matter, though
IMHO: Maybe the "attitude" and communication part. There is a goodly disparity between being gentle with someone, and "So what?" Life must be much simpler when you don't have to give a damn about others feelings.
Nevertheless, in the past I noodled, and was summarily hit over the head with a "clue-by-four" for doing so. It was not very politely done on me, they were not the politest people, but I was interfering with their enjoyment and getting in their space, THEIRS, NOT MINE. They were within their rights, I think.
The point was taken, I was grateful for the lesson, no whining or posturing.
So since then, I do not attempt to "jump in" clueless when others are playing a tune they know and enjoy. At times I would not appreciate others doing so to me and my fellows.
If you're bugging anyone, you're not doing it correctly (correctly? not bugging anyone!) and you should stop, obviously. However, I may be old fashioned. I think there's never any reason for a lack of manners, and it goes both ways. Bugging people while doing it is a lack of manners, and telling people to f off instead of being polite but firm is a lack of manners as well. So is taking a polite but firm request personally and stalking off.
Rereading some more above this jumped out again, from Will:
"...you can definitely tell when someone is learning a tune on the fly, even when they're doing it well and discreetly. In fact, it's their discretion that draws attention because they're aren't at full volume and there will be gaps where they haven't sussed out the notes yet."
Great word, "discretion". It's not to be done all the time, or even for every tune you know a part of, really. Just because that one little part is the same as that other tune doesn't mean you should rip along on the whole thing, or even just play that little part every time it comes around. Folks often have that need, discussed above, to play all the time or they feel like they are missing out. Listening and listening while playing are different experiences, both invaluable.
Jack, I have seen world class players pick up tunes on the fly, routinely. I've had them learn tunes from me (of all things). I've had them do it when afterwards they said, "What's the name of that--I've never heard it before."
Noodling and learning tunes on the fly are NOT synonymous for me. Anyone can noodle. But to learn on the fly you have to have command of your instrument and a great intuitive feel for this music. Neither of those is beyond the average session player with some solid years of listening and playing under his or her belt.
SWFL, this music is chock full of short, repetitive, "easy" tunes that anyone with a lick of familiarity with their intstrument and the music in general can learn in three times around ***even if they've never heard that specific tune before.*** That's the fundamental logic behind this music in the first place--thousands of tunes, the vast majority of them in one of three keys or their relative modes, all built out of a fairly small bag of common phrases and motifs.
So it's actually fiarly easy to pick up tunes you've never heard before.
That whole reasoning is almost moot, however, because after a few years of sitting in sessions and listening to the music wherever you can get your ears on it, chances are you've heard a healthy sample of all the tunes out there, most of them more than once. After 30 years in this game, it's rare for me to hear a tune I haven't heard before.
But it's also true that good musicians in any aural genre (duh...ALL music is aural, but you know what I mean) such as rock, jazz, bluegrass, etc., become adept at picking up tunes on the fly. One of the tests to get into big swing bands back in the day was whether the candidate could instantly play along to any melody the band leader chose. If you couldn't pick up tunes on the fly, you need not apply for the job.
I've played in rock and bluegrass bands, I've played old timey, jammed with swing and jazz musicians, and I've played Irish for 30 years. They all put a premium in being able to pick up tunes on the fly--I've rarely played with musicians who didn't. And I'm not talking about improvising around a theme; I mean actually playing the tune. So it's actually surprising to me to hear people say it can't be done, or that they've never heard it done successfully. For me, it's part and parcel of playing music.
Mind you, there are people who are much quicker at it than I am. One of our local whistle players is truly gifted at it. And I've seen loads of great players at festival sessions picking tunes off each other like mad.
I know I've told the story here before about when Mark O'Connor joined the Grisman band. His first night with them happened to be in Bozeman, MT, where I was working at the Flatiron mandolin shop. Grisman and Mike Marshall came in and played some tunes with us. Someone asked about O'Connor and Grisman said he was still at the hotel, in bed. O'Connor stayed up late the night before learning ***50*** of the bands numbers from recordings, picking up all of Tony Rice's guitar breaks note for note, and also working up his own stuff for fiddle, guitar, and mandolin.
If Mark O'Connor, musical savant that he is, can learn 50 Grisman pieces in one night, why is it so "impossible" for a decent musician to pick up a 32-bar tune on the fly? I think it's sad to see people playing this music with such low expectations of themselves and others. Particularly if that prevents them from ever even trying to learn such a useful, fun, and wholly musical skill.
Will CPT, I think it's not so much they can't do it, it's that they have not learned how to *let* themselves do it. I can't do it for Irish tunes (yet... maybe one day) but for jazz, blues, bluegrass, it was just what I usually did. But there's a knack, you have to let go and jump and hope for the best, and trust that the instrument and your fingers and whatever the magic is, will carry you, and incredibly, it usually works and you find yourself playing stuff you never knew you knew, isn't that right ?
Yes, there is a leap of faith to be made. But with such densely melodic music as our beloved jigs and reels, at such a pace, it's not as simple as, say, swinging along to an old jazz or folk song.
For instance, the difference between loping along to the Tennessee Waltz on the fly and picking up a tune like Tom McElvogue's #3 on the fly is that the latter goes at a much faster clip, the 'bare bones" melody has 2 to 4 times as many notes per major downbeat, and it belongs to a very narrow, finely nuanced class of tunes known as Irish reels. Whereas Tennessee Waltz is just a staightforward waltz, with lyrics, almost always played at a dirge pace.
So it does take some chops, a good ear for intervals and subtle twiddly bits to pick up a reel on the fly at session pace. More than just a leap of faith (which often ends in random noodling if you don't have the chops or the ear yet).
But I have to emphasize the "yet." Just because too many tossers noodle over the music without ever really learning how to pick up tunes on the fly doesn't mean that good musicians can't pick up tunes on the fly. I've seen and heard it done at almost every session I've been to. I can do it myself, and believe me, I'm just yer average session player. And I like to think I'm not self-delusional.
Picking up stuff on the fly is crucial to a good session, in fact. It's how you mesh with what your session mates are playing. If "the same tune is never the same tune twice," then you have to use your ears and chops to go with the flow as you careen through a tune. The other option is to pre-arrange your tunes into sets, and to not vary too widely from how you play the tunes. I've sat in with people who play like that, too, and it very quickly deadens the music. You might as well play along to recordings.
In contrast, when you can play by the seat of your pants and really gibe with your session mates, you're free to play off each other much more, make the tunes come freshly alive each time, and have a kick-arse session. For me, this is what live music is all about. I understand that some people enjoy polishing up arrangements for the studio or performance, and some even carry that over into sessions (I am *not* pointing the finger at anyone here). But that's not my cuppa tea, and for me, that really dulls a session.
Sorry to rant like this, but "fear of flying" really can kill a session. People end up playing tunes only "as scripted," and it never varies, and they trainwreck if you put tunes together on the fly because they "like it when they know exactly what's coming next," and they trainwreck if two notes go astray, and they prefer to play what they played last week, where everyone knows their parts, and it's like a damn orchestra playing off the page. Sorry...that's not a session, it's a recital.
Will CPT - I have very much enjoyed your passion for this subject and your insightful posts. Your comments regarding knowledge of the instrument and ear training with regards to learning tunes "at speed" is spot on. I also agree that this aural tradition needs to foster these skills as a means of learning.
However, none of this negates much of what Button and others have said regarding clueless "noodlers." They need to be made aware of their felonious ways and redirected to your line of thinking - or boiled like the pasta they are.
Every player since time began, from Paganini downwards, hits bad notes. The BIG problem is not knowing when you hit a bad note. The BIGGER problem is if you do know it and don't do anything about it.
JNE, agreed. I don't care for random noodling, either. But if someone is actually getting the tune, then I have no problems.
Muse, even the best players hit bum notes when playing tunes and settings they've rehearsed over and over. Music isn't about perfection, it's about expression. No one here is talking about never hitting a "bad" note (whatever that may mean). If that's what you're striving for, you won't likely enjoy playing live music.
It may be the fear of hitting bum notes that keeps some people from learning how to pick up tunes on the fly. But the same people hit bum notes playing tunes that they know inside and out--it happens to everyone.
And the best way to hit fewer clinkers when learning on the fly is to practice learning on the fly. Sure, do it in private first. But at some point, you can do it in a session and not bother anyone but the perfectionists (who shouldn't be playing in a pub anyway ).
Will writes: "Jack, I have seen world class players pick up tunes on the fly, routinely. I've had them learn tunes from me (of all things). I've had them do it when afterwards they said, "What's the name of that--I've never heard it before.""
~~~
I'm not doubting you, and you do tell us your session is regarded as a "learning" session. But my experience is different. I've played in a lot of sessions around Ireland that have included top-shelf players and there are times when I'll be invited to “lash out a couple of tunes” and one of the 2 or three tunes I play will be unknown to them. Their response has been to sit and listen, and then join in again on the next one... if they know it. (This is also what I do.) Afterwards they'll say, "What was the name of that second one; I've never heard it before." I've also seen the same thing happen when tunes come up that other musicians start that have the same response. And I've seen the same thing happen when the same top-shelf players show up at our sessions here in SF. The unwritten rule seems to be not to play tunes you don’t know.
So what I'm thinking, (and this has always been my main thrust in these discussions,) is that there are different session styles rather than a universal style. If I were to go to Will's session I might actual try to pick up a tune on the fly since that's what everyone else appeared to be doing. But the sessions around Ireland I went to, and most that I attend here in SF -- I'm not inclined.
Will writes: "Noodling and learning tunes on the fly are NOT synonymous for me. "
~~~
What I meant is that if someone isn’t successful at "learning tunes on the fly" it amounts to be just noodling. If someone IS successful, I wouldn't notice they were learning tunes on the fly and therefore it wouldn't sound like noodling.
Um, my local weekly sessions are NOT a "learning" session. (And I don't know how you misunderstood that.) They're just sessions. I used to host a monthly tune learning session--that wasn't really a session, more of a free group lesson where anyone could lead a tune for others to learn. Two totally different animals.
Jack, if someone is picking up a tune on the fly so well that you can't tell, then how do you know when people are doing it? Maybe they've been doing it around you all the time, and you just assume they already know the tune?
There may be different styles of sessions, but obviously there are also different personal approaches to sessioning. And people who can learn tunes on the fly do it at all sorts of sessions, sometimes even where the noodle and tune learning police are out in force.
I'm glad I've played with people (many from Ireland) who encourage learning on the fly. I'm glad my local session welcomes it.
"Has anyone ever seen people at a world-class level noodling?" ~ Button
Yes, including in Ireland ~ in the best sense of the form, as others like Will & the Rev have defined and discussed previously... I can't think of a musical gathering in dear Eire where it didn't happen. No, it wasn't me, necessarily...
To repeat the Rev ~ "-it's all about awareness..." (including self-awareness)
Some of us are sensitive enough to irritate ourselves, to be more than aware of when we've overstepped the mark, so there's no way we'd want to subject someone else to the same intrusion... I also am most fond of just listening and appreciating what others do, or not (appreciating)...
Button: "people who noodle are uncomfortable if their not playing on nearly every tune."
That's another that falls under 'worst case', along with the errant harmonizer and the tone deaf...
I'm way out of practice, and not 'amazing', but yes, I could sit down, hear a tune once and play it soon afterwards... I didn't find that as some unheard of skill in my travels. Lots of folks I've had the pleasure of knowing through music could do it, didn't question it. But much of that comes from having played a lot of tunes and a lot of times and being sympatico with the form...second nature... It only comes with time and practice, and needs regular exercise, which doesn't mean playing that way for every damn tune, as hopefully there would be few that required that if you were at your regular session. If visiting, at least with me, I would be unlikely to exercise it amongst strangers...
Returning to what Will said ages back ~ it isn't something you need to or want to exercise often, in the best sense. It might be one or two tunes in an evening, if that, if at all...
Lazyhound raised another issue ~ playing for dancers. We used to use a sound system and only those who knew, and were the hired guns, played to mikes. But, we had openings for others ~ to noodle, but never into a microphone. What was impressive was the progress most of those noodlers made musically, if not all, under that open door policy, our welcome and guidance. Being miked and monitored we hadn't any worry that the guest noodlers would throw us off our groove, fun...
I had a good chuckle at Geoff's suggestion of turning the volume down around an inconsiderate noodler...
Will, again: "-to learn on the fly you have to have command of your instrument and a great intuitive feel for this music. Neither of those is beyond the average session player with some solid years of listening and playing under his or her belt." & with me in further agreements that it is "-such a useful, fun, and wholly musical skill." & satisfying...
I'm always listening to others, whether or not I'm playing as well, and if I'm playing, I'm often doing another type of noodling ~ picking up the way others play a tune, how they vary it, how they decorate it. My interest in the music is also in the musician and a part of some aspect of that, which touches on this subject, noodling, is trying out what someone else does ~ on the fly, whether or not we're both playing the same instrument. Differences in instruments adds another level of interest. I love that. It is what helps to bring us together, a nod of respect and appreciation... I also love the surprises, and sometimes even mistakes or a 'bad note' can add interest, can turn into or toward an interesting alternate take. God has blessed some of us with the ability to know the differences. Others, sadly, seem completely bereft of any sensory ability to know the misery they make, the abuse they level on music and the rest of us present. But, sometimes, a bad note is a good joke, raises a laugh with the embarrasment... I count myself fortunate that I am embarrassed when I screw up.
Eejit: "-this aural tradition needs to foster these skills (with consideration and awareness) as a means of learning."
I've been enjoying following this... You all weave a great discussion...
Will writes: "Um, my local weekly sessions are NOT a "learning" session. (And I don't know how you misunderstood that.) "
~~
I think I must have run the first two paragraphs in my memory from your first post on this thread (below)... sorry.
Will wrote in his first post: "I always encourage people to learn tunes on the fly (especially at my local sessions).
People who are new to that tend to flail around a lot and hit lots of bum notes. So I hosted a monthly tune learning session, in people's living rooms rather than in a public place. And I encouraged people to practice learning by ear from recordings (one way that recordings can be useful)."
Will writes: "Jack, if someone is picking up a tune on the fly so well that you can't tell, then how do you know when people are doing it? Maybe they've been doing it around you all the time, and you just assume they already know the tune?"
~~~
That's my point: you shouldn't notice successful attempts at learning tunes on the fly. I only notice the unsuccessful attempts. The perpetrators usually claim to be successful at it. I still say it's a bit of an emperor's new clothes endeavor for the most part.
In the scenario I provided in this thread the perpetrator would boast about his abilities regarding this. I guess people who are successful remain discreet and never mention it.
I still say that should have a category for it in the All Irelands.
It definitely is part of the craic for me to trade musical ideas back and forth with other players. It's proof that you're actually listening to each other instead of each playing in their own soundproof silo. Also, it's fun to hear what other people come up with and to echo that, and then to change it a little, or play the same idea in a different part of the tune.
All of this is about enjoying the unpredictable, the element of surprise, of serendipity, of chance, and sometimes of the "mistake" made beautiful.
None of this came easy for me, and I'm far from being as good at it as I'd like. But I'm improving by *doing,* and by playing with people who are much better at it than I am. That's fun, too, and it speaks to a generosity of spirit when people encourage others to stretch their musical capabilities, and when you can be adaptive in your own playing to help someone else feel welcome or supported because you've joined in (even though the tune was unfamiliar just moments before).
There's also something about being so in-the-moment with another player, given how ephemeral music is. Now and then, two people in such a groove will play the same variation, or turn to the same tune as the next in the set, with no idea the other was going to do the same. And that's one of the best feelings you can have--as close to communion as it gets. I've had it where we're all cranking away on some old war horse, and suddenly two of us veer together into some obscure tune neither of us has played in years, and the hair on my neck goes up.
I love this music anyway, but when it's fully interactive this way, the juice really gets flowing.
Jack wrote: "In the scenario I provided in this thread the perpetrator would boast about his abilities regarding this. I guess people who are successful remain discreet and never mention it."
I suppose so. Never really thought about it before. Can't say I play much with anyone who boasts about any aspect of their playing. Geesh, even folks like John Carty and Brian Conway are pretty demure about their talents, self deprecating even. I honestly haven't run into many boastful players in Irish music. That might be a clue right from the start.
As I said above, I wish I was better at it than I am. But it doesn't strike me as a peculiar skill, or one that's beyond most people's grasp. It just takes doing and paying attention, like anything else in this music.
I wonder what the likes of people like John Carty and Brian Conway would say about learning tunes on the fly at sessions. As I said, my observation has been that people on that level don't do it, and the few times I remember the subject being discussed at all, it seemed to be fround on for the most part. The only time I notice it happening is when the pedestrians ITM musicians like ourselves are involved.
I'm curious, Will, have you asked John Carty and Brian Conway specifically if they learn tunes on the fly like this? Or I wonder if they choose instead to listen when tunes they rarely or never heard before come up at sessions.
Heh, I doubt John or Brian often hear tunes they don't already know. I don't think we stumped Brian or Felix at the house session they sat in on....
The topic doesn't often come up--not the sort of thing you talk about when you're just playing tunes and having fun. But I've certainly heard mixed reports. Kevin Burke was quoted once as saying he doesn't learn tunes at sessions because "they go by too fast." Don't know if that's apocryphal or not. When I asked Kevin myself, he said "Try to pick up key phrases, rather than the whole tune. That'll come later." Which sounds like he's okay with picking up phrases (on your instrument? Or just in your head?) at sessions.
Some folks suggest just recording tunes at sessions and learning them at home, which seems reasonable enough. Seamus Connolly says "its not easy" and recommends recording. Verena Commins says she listens at sessions, but if it's a straightforward tune in an easy key, she'll "have it by the third time round." Tunes in less friendly keys, she just listens. She finished by saying sessions are better for absorbing tunes rather than learning them right out.
Turloch Boylan says play quietly when learning tunes at sessions.
So it's not totally verboten, though people certainly acknowledge that it can be disruptive if it's not done with discretion. The folks I've heard talk about it also echo Verena in being selective with which tune you choose to learn on a given night.
So. I've seen some great players do it--Joannie Madden (on whistle) and half the gang of that year's incarnation of Cherish the Ladies, Liz Carroll, Johnny Cunningham, and Paul Kotapish spring to mind.
A lot depends on what the mood is, whether a "must have" tune pops up that stumps the player in question, quantities of alcohol involved, etc. I don't think you can say it's a yes/no sort of thing--varies from place to place, from person to person, and from night to night. So if a session is the "featured entertainment" in the front room of the pub, might be better to just listen and absorb. But a cozy sesh among friends in the snug may be more amenable to picking up a tune or two over the course of the evening. Eh?
Of course, part of the beauty of learning a tune on the fly is that it CAN be done by us mere mortals--you don't have to be stellar. Just quick at catching the melody.
Funny that so many of us learn this music aurally, yet some people frown on doing so outside of a private lesson or workshop.
Our answers are doomed to be anecdotal, but whether learning on the fly happens at sessions or not is probably fairly situational anyway.
Another way of thinking about all this is that decent players are always rethinking how they play their tunes--even (especially) ones they've known for years. So at a session, if your ears are open and there are nuances and ideas swirling around the room, and you're not just playing the tune the same old way for the hundreth time, then you're learning on the fly. Not as dramatically as picking up a tune whole cloth for the first time. But still covering new terrain, risking derailment in hopes of discovering something new, of surprising yourself.
Here's where session shine, because unlike performances, no one cares if you resort to shuffling a bar or two when your wheels come off. As Barry Foy says, sessions are where the music does its homework, where it picks its nose. Yet the more you take these calculated risks, the better you get at it, and derailments grow rarer, easier to cover up. And the playing is much more lively.
Will, did Verena tell you that personally, or did you read it somewhere? And what about Turloch Boylan? And how do you know Joannie Madden and the rest were doing it? I'm curious because you said, "The topic doesn't often come up--not the sort of thing you talk about when you're just playing tunes and having fun."
All these great musicians mentioned by Will - of *course* they'd be able to pick up tunes on the fly. Are you questioning their abilities? You need proof that these people are any good? Come off it. Anyone would think you'd never been to a session in Ireland before, the way you're talking.
A few years ago, I had email conversations with these folks. I happened to ask about learning on the fly at sessions. It dawned on me that I'd kept their emails in a file I'm using to write a book (and they knew they might be quoted in a book when they emailed with me).
With Joannie, it was at a session, and she picked up a jig I was playing--Wallop the Potlid. She got most of it right off, then asked what it was--said she'd never heard it before. BTW, she didn't "noodle"--she just sussed out the tune. Didn't bother me or throw me off my game at all.
Is the interogation over now? Am I free to leave? Or is someone pressing charges?
Jack, if I didn't know better, I'd wonder if you were trying to cast doubt on the veracity of my posts here. Makes me wonder what your point is. Is this discussion about understanding the breadth and depth of people's session experience, or are you suggesting your understanding is the only correct one? And perhaps your sources are the only valid ones? Or are you just trying to "win" an argument? Because I didn't think that was the point of this thread....
Um, lots of us here have friends in the trad world. It's a small yet well-traveled community.
Besides, most of the comments I relayed were damning with faint praise when it comes to picking up tunes on the fly at sessions. I'd think you'd be pleased. Unless you think it really *never* happens--that it's *only* done by noodlers who are all mouth and no chops.
But now I'm no doubt reading far too much into all this. No worries.
Will writes: "if I didn't know better, I'd wonder if you were trying to cast doubt on the veracity of my posts here."
~~~
Not at all, I'm just comparing my impressions from experiences and conversations I've had with what others and yourself are saying. I'd say my approach is very close to what Verena described, and when Verena was here that's exactly what she did as far as I could tell. I have to admit I haven't interviewed people on the topic of learning tunes on the fly like you have, but my impression is that it's not done as widely as it seems to be suggested in this thread with the exception of simple and predictable tunes.
I should add that my earliest exposure to having people learn tunes on the fly were at local sessions here in SF where you would often have one or two people who actually know and play the tune being drowned out by four or five people noodling the tune on the fly, and I’m sure they each thought they were brilliant at it. The result of course was a monotonous cacophony. In more recent times the people who noodle tunes on the fly aren’t as numerous and the sessions have been much more musical and enjoyable.
But many, many (if not most) of the tunes we play are "simple and predictable." Okay, not the Gold Ring. Surely some Fahy and Reavy tunes are better left for your own kitchen. But that still leaves a good 5,000 or so tunes that aren't so daunting.
Cross posted. My experience has been very different. I've never met anyone who actually thought they were all that good at learning on the fly. (Well, one guitar player who could flat pick any bluegrass tune upon hearing it once, but I don't even he realized how much of a knack he had.)
So the people I've been around who do this do so very discreetly, only coming up in volume by the third or fourth go round. Interestingly, my current session mates who are good at this all got their ear chops while playing other genres (classical, jazz, and pop). But the skills transferred easily as soon as they'd listened to enough Irish trad to understand the basic structures and idioms of the music. And one of them has played Irish trad for several decades.
I've always maintained there are exceptions, and I know a few personally with extraordinary abilities along these lines, but I know a lot more people who only claim to have these abilities. They’re the ones causing the trouble because they're the ones you notice.
I wonder if learning on the fly is less common than it used to be (while random noodling may have increased?). Today's glut of recordings makes it easier to learn tunes at home, through endless listening, instead of having only three or four takes to absorb a tune. And perhaps the co-emergence of sessions and recordings also discourages spontaneity in people's playing. Session playing can lead to a certain "lowest-common-denominator" approach to learning basic, popular settings of tunes. No reason to stray too far--no one will hear you anyway, or the variations might not gibe with what everyone else is belting out. And learning from recordings tends to ingrain the settings and variations, repeated ad nauseum, because a recording is such a short snapshot of the music. Like a gnat fossilized in amber--not the same as the living, buzzing, careening insect. Plus the supposed perfection of recordings stifles risk taking--our ears are attuned to studio-cleansed, always-the-same, polished tracks. No room for error. Even if we don't hold ourselves to that standard, we imagine anyone listening to us might be making the comparison. So it's safer to stick to playing only what we know, what we've played before.
Which is one (of many) things I enjoy about John Carty's playing, for example. He charts new ground, he's not afraid to reach.
There's the nub of it, perhaps. I don't think there's anything "extraordinairy" about being able to learn these tunes on the fly. Sure, some people try it without the requisite instrumental chops and familiarity with the genre. But if you have those two ingredients, then all it takes is doing it and getting over the fear of fumbling. The more you do it, the more you can trust your ears, and the more successful you become with it.
Like every other skill we learn when learning this music, there is no "easy" and "hard." Only "familiar" and "unfamiliar."
Good point, Will; I'm sure modern technology has its effect, but I was disappointed after I heard what turned out to be the source recordings many of the tunes I learned from sessions in the early days and discovered that subtle really tasty bits were smoothed out. Since then my MO at sessions is to ask people where they got a tune, and then I can sus it out and learn it at home before subjecting the session to it. This is a luxury that modern times allows me since we have the Internet and websites like this that function as tune clearinghouses.
There are simple and predictable tunes that I have successfully learned at sessions, but I'm not likely to jump in at first hearing. If they're dead simple I might by the third pass, but I usually wait until I recognize it on another occasion and then go for it.
Actually, the point about the Gold Ring has got me thinking. I don't know whether we've had this conversation before, but I'm wondering what it is, exactly, that makes a tune harder or easier to pick up on the fly. 'Cos I don't think it's necessarily the number of parts. Some two part tunes sometimes elude me for quite some time, and other, longer tunes, I just get.
"And learning from recordings tends to ingrain the settings and variations, repeated ad nauseum, because a recording is such a short snapshot of the music"
That's only if you're only listening to one recording. Gather up a few different versions and there is much more to choose from, more ways of developing an approach, as in "well, you could play a double-cut there, but I've also heard it with a bowed triplet, a roll would work, but then a double stop sounds nice too"...and then it's up to the player to decide what sound they like best.
And if your friend at the local session plays it another way (or several ways), that's another source to add to the mix.
We're verging on new discussion territory now ~ recordings ~ something that has been driving me bonkers these last few weeks as I've been listening intently to commercial recordings and looking at the wave forms and ALL THE CRAP DIGITAL DIDDLING!!! Musn't go there, those damned digital jockies who think they're sound techs, self-made and perpetuated ignorance ~ GRRRRRR!!! Alright, breath deeply, count to 10 in some other language and throw back a shot of something throat burning...
Now for a little extraction ~ from the contributions of others...
Will CPT: Kevin Burke was quoted once as saying he doesn't learn tunes at sessions because "they go by too fast."
'c': Sounds very likely. I have to admit it, sessions in the pub sense are not my greater experience. At the small gatherins I favour 'learning tunes on the fly' is part of it all. It isn't unusual for someone to even ask for it to pass with the tempo lowered to make the process easier...
Will CPT: - being selective with which tune you choose to learn on a given night... ~ a cozy sesh among friends in the snug may be more amenable to picking up a tune or two over the course of the evening. Eh?
'c': Yes, I'm happy if I get just one tune down from a friend or visitor in an evening of shared music and craic. Why push it any further? Excess is always, in my book, abuse, disrespectful and ignorant...
Will CPT: And perhaps the co-emergence of sessions and recordings also discourages spontaneity in people's playing. Session playing can lead to a certain "lowest-common-denominator" approach to learning basic, popular settings of tunes.
'c': Something else I wouldn't doubt, that makes sense. I've not known 'older' musicians, including some well known luminaries, who couldn't and didn't listen and follow with interest, including learning tunes or takes on the fly... Maybe I'm at fault for to a certain extent taking it for granted, as for me it is all part of the craic, part of the total picture ~ 'traditional', with respect of course and without over doing it...
When living in Ireland, or whenever at the height of being active in this, I could be out most nights playing music, or dancing to it, and with work, there wasn't any time left over to be fuffin' about at home trying to learn anything. I, and others, just did pick up things from each other on the fly. I suppose we never questioned it, as it was just a natural part of the whole process, not something alien, not something only a select few could do.
Moving away from those rich settings, well, I don't take it for granted anymore, and I've raised in my sensitivity to what others call 'noodling', of the errant and irritating variety. I also find that sadly, very few people do have it down as part of their art and understanding, in general. All the varieties of hell we've mentioned are suddenly more common ~ harmony noodlers, tune noodlers that seem to do it for EVERYTHING, noddlers full of themselves who see themselves as being able but are evidently (to my ears) not, and those who can only noodle, for whom I've never heard a complete recognizeable 32 bars ~ not ever. It is painful, even scary. Sometimes the only thing you can do is nurse your pint and find a far corner of the pub where you can chat loud enough to drown out these abuses levied on the music...
Kennedy, that works to some degree, but then you might be blending apples and oranges and coming out with a fruit salad version of the tune, rather than a more cohesive whole compote. Trying to blend Martin Hayes' take on a jig with Seamus Connolly's likely wouldn't sound like the same tune.
There's more to it than just the music, too. Learning off of recordings is such a sterile, self-directed process compared to the interaction of learning from someone actually playing the tune in front of you. This deepens even more when you play with the same person week in, week out. It's part of what makes a long-running session gel.
Jack describes learning a "smoothed out" setting at the session only to find it's source recording is much more nuanced, and so he learns the setting from the recording. Which is fine, except that some people (not suggesting Jack does) then hie to the recorded setting as though it's written in stone. Personally, I'd rather learn the smoothed out version and let my own immersion in the tradition guide me in fleshing it out--this is actually a farily common experience for me. Nine times out of ten, I have an echo of the tune in my head from having heard it played by others over the years, and I find myself playing cuts and rolls and slightly different melodic lines based on those echoes, thinking, "Huh, this sounds like how that fiddler from Vancouver played it," or "My memory hears this as played on pipes, which explains why I'm cranning the open D on my fiddle."
Ben, I picked the Gold Ring just because it's a multi part tune. The only thing hard about tunes like that (or the Strayaway Child) is keeping track of which part is which because they're so similar. The parts themselves are easy enough to pick up.
For me, on fiddle, the easiest tunes to learn on the fly are the ones that do a lot of rocking across strings over the chord progression, like Duke of Leinster or the Noisy Curlew or Humours of Scarrif. Weirdly, though, some more linear tunes like A Night In Ennis (aka the other Ashplant) or Never Was Piping so Gay just land and stick under my fingers right away. Some melodies just Tab A into my neural Slot B like they were made to fit.
Jigs are often easier than reels, maybe because the phrases tend to be shorter. Same with polkas, although I find that with polkas I invariably want to do more with them than the player does who I've learned them from, so I woodshed at home on those.
As I sometimes tell people turning to me for some direction, or as I remind myself often enough ~ give in to it, let go, drop the tensions, let it pour over you and into you, become one with the music (or dance), musician(s), the tune and their take on it. Relax and get soaked. We have already said and realize that there has to be some proficiency already acquired before you can do this with the greatest positive effect and results ~ BUT ~ I think in great part that this 'deep listening' is what allows you to move forward and acquire that proficiency, whatever the apprenticeship...
I have never learned a thing without first giving myself up to it, like learning steps in a dance, letting the person teaching me those steps have my complete and undivided attention and giving my body up to miming what they do, as if it wasn't my body but theres. That may seem odd, but I've taught enough to know that it is part of the key to learning anything, step by step or on the fly. You have to just let go and not get in the way...
Despite claims to the contrary, no art or artist or craft or craftperson is born complete and unflawed. You get there through a process of screw-ups. You take risks. You make mistakes and hopefully have the sense to learn from those. Ideally you do all this with some consideration for others and an awareness of your 'place' and responsibilities in the process...with courtesy.
You can acquire that too, through 'tradition', courtesy. All those characters, those gentle-folk, who inspired and taught me ~ every one of them (not counting the few alien exceptions) ~ were welcoming, kind, courteous, patient ~ even the irascible in thier own way. I couldn't help but return the same, with respect....
I admit the sing, in my mind, of losing touch with those connections sometimes, like when I'm really tired ~ or ~ the twit before me persists in acts of discourtesy and disrespect for others present, for the 'tradition'. Part of what breaks me there is the realization, or remembering, that sadly there are some folks in this world who seem incapable of returning some consideration and respect in kind, the sort that are so self-obsessed that they'll never get it, because there's no room inside their obsession for the tradition or for others. They can't seem to be able to let go and allow for other things, like muisicality, humour, awareness, of others and self... Maybe it is some species of psychosis?
C, I have to agree. As this music and sessions were popularized, more people came to them with little to no understanding--or interest in understanding--what came before. The fact that some people here can argue against learning tunes on the fly, and the ubiquitousness of notation and slow-down software, suggests that this once-interpersonal, aural tradition is becoming something else. So newcomers mistake "aural" for permission to randomly noodle and harmonize. Some have been at it long enough that others think this is how it's supposed to be.
But on the bright side, there are also places where a high level of community and musicianship still exist, and these are widespread, not confined to one small island.
Will writes: "Jack describes learning a "smoothed out" setting at the session only to find it's source recording is much more nuanced, and so he learns the setting from the recording."
~~~
There's more to this than what you suggest. In some cases the tunes seemed reinvented in a way where style was also a casualty. The problem is that when you're out in the outback of ITM, so to speak, it's more difficult to surround yourself with high-caliber influences. Often the people around you are just as clueless, and you have to find a way to get closer to the source. I've done this by listening to recorded source material and visiting Ireland. I also seek out good local players, but that's not always possible either for every tune you seek to learn. Recordings might be artificial to a certain extent, but sometimes it's all we have to go by.
Will writes: "The fact that some people here can argue against learning tunes on the fly,"
~~~
Just to clarify: I'm not saying it can't be done, but rather questioning whether it should be considered appropriate for sessions or encouraged. The only people that should be doing it would be people who are successful enough that no one notices. The problem is that the person doing it isn’t necessarily the best judge for their abilities, and the other musicians are too polite to say anything or bother with it. I just hope a thread like this gives the practitioners food for thought.
"but then you might be blending apples and oranges and coming out with a fruit salad version of the tune, rather than a more cohesive whole compote"
True, if you don't really understand the way this kind of music works. You have to listen to a lot of it to know what's appropriate, and then also have an internal sense of what sounds good.
I appreciate what you say about learning from other players, and when you do have a good player to learn from, there's nothing better, especially if you have the opportunity to talk with them and have them tell you about how they make the choices they do. But I think recordings can be quite instructive as well, especially listening to particular players to learn their approaches, and take kind of a "how would Bobby Casey (for ex.) do it?" perspective when looking for ideas.
Of course, it might work differently when you've been playing this music for 30 years...
Kennedy, it helps to listen to the older material, too. Today's recordings are so commericalized and cleansed, or popped up, that they give a very skewed sense of this music (or at least where it seems to be heading).
The problem with commercial recordings at all is that they're made with an end in mind that's different from playing for dancers or playing in the kitchen with your mates. So it depends on how you want your music to sound. Influences are important.
Jack, I got that full sense of smoothed out that your intended, and I wholeheartedly agree. Less experienced players often miss the stylistic and personal touches when they learn a tune. You end up with locally homogenized curds--the cream is elsewhere.
And I didn't mean to insinuate that you only listen to cds. Going to Ireland is grand, but there are plenty of excellent players here in the States who carry on and pass on the tradition. In fact, among many players, the New York or Chicago idioms and heritage of this music go back more than 100 years and are deeply rooted in the communities (and from there back to the immigrants' homes), just as they are in Ireland. They are valid and valued branches of this tradition.
Will, I don't think I suggested there aren't any worthy musicians or influences here in the states; what I said was it's more difficult to surround yourself with high-caliber influences when you're in the outback of ITM. I moved to SF from the Central Valley because there are some very good musicians rooted in the tradition here as well as top-shelf touring artists passing through. There were many great sessions with brilliant players in attendance, but even with all of that, often the sessions were populated with the not so blind leading the blind, so to speak. For that reason I sometimes had to look beyond the local session in my quest for tune sources and influences.
Regarding going to Ireland as opposed to New York and/or Chicago: I get great pleasure from my visits to Ireland, and I've seen and sometimes participated in some of the best sessions I've ever experienced. I'm sure I might meet equally great musicians in Chicago and New York, (and I have when they come to SF,) but going to Ireland has something to it that goes far beyond visiting major American cities. I suppose I might have the chance to visit NY and Chicago someday, and that will be great, but visiting Ireland is something I will always prefer.
Erm, Jack, I didn't say you suggested anything of the sort. Ease up on the paranoia, eh? You're repeatedly reading into my posts negativity that isn't there. I was just mentioning that it's possible to find great mentors and session mates Stateside.
I didn't accuse you of saying I suggesting it, I just said I didn't suggest it. But I will take you to task on your allegations of paranoia if you aren't careful.
Traditional Noodling 101
Traditional Noodling 101
Say you were cornered or asked to describe this act, in it's worst ways and in its possibly more constructive and considerate uses ~ or to teach it? ~ along with how to not be irritating to the point of having your instrument or life under threat, or your life threatened with your instrument...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I'm sorry, but I feel I must commit murder. There's no use trying to talk me out of it. Can anybody help me with ways that I could make it less offensive? Would calling it traditional murder help?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Well, I couldn't ask for a better start...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
tee he
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Zen and the art of noodling...
For starters ~ doing it 'quietly', while listening intently... This requires that you already have a clear relationship with and sense of your instrument, that you can hear internally rather than feeling you need to actually move your bow and bring the strings into vibration and sound, or put air through your whistle or flute, or move your bellows. I've watched older and younger musicians finger a tune without moving the bow, and able to eventually pull out of the air with their ears the melody being played by others. I've done it myself, both to remember ~ and to learn a new tune ~ QUIETLY!!!
Sometimes it helps to just start from the tonic, say a G tune is being played, you think G drone, and I don't mean playing it, though I've seen that happen to, then you work up to shorter groupings, 2 bar, 1 bar, 1 beat, and the note that predominates there, then you start to fill in the rest of the melody. With experience this can happen in a short amount of time. Zen and the art of noodling...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Noodling is what guitarists do when they practise a few fancy chord progressions between sets with no actual tune in mind. Learning a tune on the fly is different, and with a fiddle pressed to your ear, bowing quietly, you can generally pick up on a new tune without annoying anyone. Loudly joining in straightaway when you don't really know a tune is not a recipe for good will and general happiness, and if you play a full-on instrument like the pipes, you can't really do this. But if someone wants to introduce a new tune they can't blame other session players if they want to see if they can pick it up. It is a session after all, not a "performance". The thing is to do it subtlely and give up if you know you're not going to get it. If I play a tune no-one else knows I'd much rather hear people having a go at joining in.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Agreed and well put RichardB... One ear next to your instrument, with it 'muted', is what I recommend to budding bodhranistas as an occassional practice. Mostly I tell them to just listen...and to learn a melody instrument...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Doing it on the guitar is one thing. Noodling on the box or whistle is hard to do if you areplaying by ear
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I have been in the presence of a gifted few musicians who were able to pick up a tune on the fly in a session just by noodling along. By the third pass, they had the tune at full speed. This skill was usually based upon decades of ear training and immersion in this music, coupled with the fact that they were musically gifted freaks. My guess is they represent about %5 of the overall session population. Meanwhile the rest of the mortal world, noodling is usually an obnoxious disruption based on an uncontrollable desire to play on every tune and utter ignorance to the havoc they are causing to other players around them.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
There has to be a better word for it, I agree. It's really not noodling as noodling has come to be known. Some other form of pasta, perhaps?
Well described here though! That's pretty much what I'd tell them. Play only what you know, as quietly and gently as possible, and then listen to the rest and try to make sense of it without playing. You can't hear what's going on and process it properly if you're busy playing notes that are not the tune.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
"doing it 'quietly', while listening intently"
Doing what? randomly flayling around hoping you hit the right note? Or only playing the notes/phrases you do know and miming or even just thinking about the other bits until you know them? (it's amazing how quickly you can fill in the gaps if you resist the temptation to guess)
There is a world of difference between the two. It's the difference between noodling and learning a tune on the fly.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Llig - it might be helpful for some if you could elaborate on the difference between "learning on the fly" and "noodling" along until you learn the tune.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Seems I've heard two definitions of noodling.
One is when someone riffs away with funky chords or intervals that sound bad, demonstrating they have no idea what a session is.
The other is when the sessioners attempt to learn new tunes on the fly.
I think the second one is common and expected at a session. I can't tell you how many tunes end with someone saying "One more time through and I would have had that one."
If you can learn tunes on the fly, you'll have the most fun at the session. It's already been described how to do it discreetly. I do it on my flute. Everybody says they can't hear me so I go ahead and play it loud enough that I can hear it. I see the fiddlers do it with tiny bow movements that don't make any sound. The whistler is like magic. He just launches right in after a moment of though and already can play a tune he doesn't know.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
The fiddler doesn't even have to use the bow if their bowing is up to spec. It suffices just to use the fingers on the string to learn the tune pattern. On the few occasions when I've started off a tune which few of those present are likely to know I'll play it at least three times to give everyone a chance.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
The difference between noodling and learning tunes on the fly is:
Noodling is randomly flayling around hoping you hit the right note
Learning tunes is only playing the notes/phrases you do know and miming or even just thinking about the other bits until you know them?
The monumental difference is the the lack of bum notes.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
And often you don't even need the fingers on the strings, just thinking about it is enough. It's really not that hard to listen hard to a tune the first time through, imagine yourself playing it the next time through, And play it the third time through. It depends on the tune of course.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
But when do we get on to Noodling 301, or even Post-Grad Noodling ?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I always encourage people to learn tunes on the fly (especially at my local sessions).
People who are new to that tend to flail around a lot and hit lots of bum notes. So I hosted a monthly tune learning session, in people's living rooms rather than in a public place. And I encouraged people to practice learning by ear from recordings (one way that recordings can be useful).
Simple fact is that you can't get adept at learning tunes on the fly without doing it. Makes sense to practice it first at home or at a tune learning session. If someone is struggling with it, I recommend spending some focused time learning to accurately hear pitch intervals. And then some focused time without an instrument learning to pick up tunes by ear by lilting them.
Assuming you have the chops down on your chosen instrument, and you've spent a few thousand hours listening to this music the way a bloodhound follows a scent trail, then picking up tunes on the fly by ear isn't that difficult.
A few rules of thumb:
Listen the first time through for the overall contour or shape of the tune. Where does it go up and where does it go down. Where does it circle on itself around a particular note or cluster of notes (I tend to hear chord progressions and that helps me understand where my fingers would go on fiddle, narrowing the note choices).
Also figure out the tonal center or home note of the tune--all the other notes you'll play should be heard in relation to that home note.
While you're focused on that, your brain will almost subliminally register all the cliche phrases that comprise many tunes. Stuff like |G2 Bg dGBG| or |DFAF BFAF| etc. You can play these stock phrases while listening and thinking ahead to what's coming next.
As you hear the tune again, listen to the bits you missed the first time around and lilt them in your mind. Your fingers may get only a couple notes out of a phrase, but if they etch themselves on your brain, your fingers will know where to go next time.
With practice, all of this gets easier, more familiar. If I can learn to do it, anyone can. Your ability to discern intervals and basic pitch will improve the more you use these skills. Your aural memory will improvie the more you exercise it. As will your ability to think musically on your feet.
Yes, it can be easier to do this unobtrusively on a fiddle or mandolin. But one of my session mates is a whistle player who picks up tunes on the fly all the time without bothering anyone. She clearly has a knack for it, but it's also the only way she learns tunes (she doesn't read notation), so she's spent her life honing those ear learning skills. If you can play a musical instrument, you can learn to pick up tunes by ear on the fly.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
"Noodling is randomly flayling around hoping you hit the right note"
This was news to me when I read something like it on another thread. I had considered it extremely rare at most sessions.
Before my discovery I would have said I 'noodled'. By this I meant i would play part of a tune between sets while other players chatted. . . Or play an entire tune if someone took it upon themselves to present a PSA.
When I do not know a tune I will sometimes play the root note (tonal center) when it came up & then other notes which would fall on the downbeat. It helps me hear the key or mode. I do this more as a drone than as a harmony.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Random_notes
*
Excuse me ceolachan.
Lately I have been learning "Bucks of Oranmore"
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/2
From some of the descriptions above would this be a good example of a tune to learn on the fly, in session, or not?
To noodle or not to noodle ~ that is the question.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?
Well said gang, lovely to follow the thought processes here, the variety included.
Yes, I realize that, as Eejit says, noodling can be ~ "-an obnoxious disruption based on an uncontrollable desire to play on every tune and utter ignorance to the havoc they are causing to other players around them."
That is the one extreme, where, SWFL's contribution ~ "You can't hear what's going on and process it properly if you're busy playing notes that are not the tune."
Dear Llig, what I'd meant by ~ "doing it 'quietly', while listening intently" ~ was doing it without noise Llig, or, actually along the lines of your fine description ~ "-playing the notes/phrases you do know and miming or even just thinking about the other bits until you know them?" & YES!!! ~ It is "amazing how quickly you can fill in the gaps if you resist the temptation to guess"!!!
That's it...
& Hounddog gives it another specific form ~ "The fiddler doesn't even have to use the bow if their bowing is up to spec. It suffices just to use the fingers on the string to learn the tune pattern. On the few occasions when I've started off a tune which few of those present are likely to know I'll play it at least three times to give everyone a chance."
Having buried myself in music for the last couple of weeks, I can say that a hell of a lot of older players gave it more than just three times through, and for me I loved it...
Will comes closest to my lesson plan ~ "I recommend spending some focused time learning to accurately hear pitch intervals. And then some focused time without an instrument learning to pick up tunes by ear by lilting them." & "I tend to hear chord progressions and that helps me understand where my fingers would go on fiddle, narrowing the note choices." & "Also figure out the tonal center or home note of the tune--all the other notes you'll play should be heard in relation to that home note."
Yes! ~ Listen first!!! ~ during and last also...
& Muse too ~ "I will sometimes play the root note (tonal center) when it came up & then other notes which would fall on the downbeat. It helps me hear the key or mode. I do this more as a drone than as a harmony."
I pick up a tune a lot quicker in my head, and via lilting, than any other way, even better if I'm also dancing while I lilt. Working up a plan to include some understanding of this process of 'directed noodling' in a series of classes I begin with recognizing key and the root or tonic. I've even taught a tune, or one part of a tune, like an A-part, completely stripped down and starting with a tonic drone and then slowly working it into something more. From a long 8 count drone, one A-part played in the background, I start breaking it up into phrases, 4 bar long drones, then 2-bar, then one note per measure, then one note per beat. I've also done something like this orally, singing it, or lilting, though you couldn't really call droning liliting. It's an exercise in finding the heart of the tune both rythmically and melodically. When I've been daft enough to spring this on those subject to my whims, me doing the teaching, we've had a good laugh, but what is interesting is how well they know the tune and retain it afterwards.
I in no way advocate clueless noodling bereft of sense or consideration. It is always a topic I address when teaching ~ amongst other things 'NOT TO DO!' But I think part of the joy is when you start to develop this sense and ability too. What better evidence that your ears have it? I also think, along with what Will & Muse and others have said, that you can acquire develop this wonderful gift...in a way that won't bring the wrath of Llig down on your head...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
The understanding gained this way is not just about 'noodling', it also opens up an better understanding of how you can vary or ornament a melody ~ and how you can destroy one. I've taken the same example and rolled every beat of the tune, just to show how awful it is. But, also to show that you can find that option almost anywhere, appropriate or not. It isn't just about those possibilities, for wind players it can also open up a better understanding of what to do with the need to breath, or the use of pauses and silences by other instruments where they haven't that added consideration. Silence, or lying on a note for a count or more, are also part of what can give this music lift and interest...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Wait, I'm confused, is "noodling" the little tuning check pattern that people tend to come up with? Is it the playing of tune snippets between sets to see if you can remember a tune (or see if someone else will pick up on it and turn it into actually playing the tune)? Or is it learning tunes on the fly, and stabbing at notes?
I think we need new words to describe each of these actions so that we can avoid future confusion...
Hopefully I don't have to re-think the "Want some sauce for those noodles" tee-shirt I designed. ("Want some sauce for while you attempt to learn that tune on the fly" doesn't have quite the same ring)
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
ceolachan - I couldn't agree more with your lilting descriptions. I will often lilt along quietly on tunes I do not know until the melody starts to saturate the synapses. After a while the melody starts to work it's way down to my fingers and I find I can play correct snippets of the tune on my instrument. Then, after consulting a recording or two, and working on the tune on my own, I find I have it pretty well by the next session - That is a close to "learning on the fly" as I will ever get.
Reverend, I think Llig accurately described the differences between noodling and learning on the fly above. Someone who loudly searches for notes on a tune they do not know to the detriment and distraction of the other players is a noodler.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
The problem with noodling is that the noodler usually overestimates their capabilities at the expense of other musicians around them who actually know the tune and are trying to play it. Most musicians are out for a good time and don't want to have to tell anyone that they’re annoying them with their noodling, so they usually are polite and keep it to themselves. If a musician does attempt to inform an over-confident noodler that their efforts are putting them off -- the offender is often perceived as the victim... so it's not worth it.
Personally I think it’s too risky and you might be wearing the emperor’s new clothes if you endeavor to noodle out tunes on the fly at sessions. I know what it’s like to sit near noodlers at sessions and I wouldn’t want to be putting people off the tune. It’s far more constructive to first allow enough time to get the tune in my head before I attempt it on the instrument – especially in public. Not only that, but it’s easier to learn as well.
But the compulsion to play along with every tune at sessions is overwhelming for a lot of people I suppose and can easily displace their consideration for the effect their noodling might have on their fellow musicians. When you combine that with the fact that most musicians are too polite to attempt to do anything about errant noodling it seems like something that we will ultimately just have to live with. It comes down to each individual’s sense of common decency to determine for themselves whether or not they should noodle.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
We've been round and round on this before, but I think it's important to balance PB's concerns with a different attitude toward people picking up tunes at sessions. They are sessions, after all (not performances), so why not let people stretch their wings a bit instead of always staying within their comfort zones lest the music lose its sheen.
The surest way to end up in a session full of people who cannot pick up tunes on the fly (and so are condemned to "noodling" if they ever try) is to inhibit or prohibit anyone from actually doing this quintessential skill of the traditional musician.
In short, perhaps the reason no one at PB's session can pick up tunes on the fly well (except for one or two alleged savants) is that it is so frowned upon to even try. Just a hypothesis, not meant at all to cast aspersions.
But consider another option. In my small-town, small-circle session of 5 melody players (featuring flute, fiddle, whistle, and button box), four of the five (80%!!!) of us can and routinely do pick up tunes on the fly at our session. And the fifth one is doing it now, too, with encouragement, and has suprised himself with his own latent ability.
Sure, if you're new to a session and they make it clear that no learning- tunes-on-the-fly is allowed, bend to their code. It's only polite.
But if I have a choice, I'd MUCH rather play at a session where picking up tunes is part of the craic and interplay, and the music still sounds grand.
The benefits of this approach are that:
- people learn to pick up tunes by ear and in real time. This is a good skill to have when playing music in an aural tradition.
- people also learn how to carry a tune despite an occasional blooper from someone else. This comes in handy when playing for dancers, in noisy pubs, at stage gigs, etc.
- we all learn each other's repertoires, even as they grow week to week. No worries about ending up a month of tunes behind everyone else.
- our collective pool of tunes grows with input from everyone, and we have a wide variety of tunes to pull from each week. No stale session sets.
- when a vistor sits in, people can pick up and play the newcomer's tunes, helping them feel included.
- people are adept at playing sets by the seat of their pants, without prearranging them. The changes tend to go smoothly, even when unpredictable, which is exciting and fun.
- when you DO play a gig with arranged sets, it's a cake walk, easy peasy, so everyone can relax, play to their best ability, and enjoy the gig.
Dunno, maybe it's just me, but a lot of these benefits are what sessions are all about....
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I've always refered to the daft little bits of tunes people try to work up and that really annoying guitar thing where strummers try out their latest "progressions" in between sets as "faffing"
ie. "will you quit faffing about".
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
The Society Against Noodling Errantly
One of the real excitements of accomplishment in this music is finding that you can ~ pick up a tune on the fly, whether that's a hang glider or a Lear Jet. But as Will suggests, it takes practice, it takes consideration too, from both sides. Support and direction will usually result in a positive outcome. It also is unwise to just sit and fester when something is getting in the way of your collective enjoyment of the music. I think it is how you go about it, and the problems are one or the other, usually, either someone who is naive but with a little comment and help can gain a better understanding, or someone who is a nutter, convinced of their superior abilities ~ and really, aren't we all much better off with such yahoos redirected out the door to found their own little thiefdom of music?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Where I play, learning tunes on the fly IS the way we learn tunes. And noodling is resolutely disallowed.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
"Faffing" ~ there's another word for it, exchanging 'aff' for three other letters that end with a 'ck'. However, my wife doesn't like me to use that word...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
'Learning tunes on the fly' ~ by ear and with experience and understanding rather than by accident...
The worst noodlers I've known, well, one class of worst, are those that haven't a clue what the melody is and decide to 'harmonize', whatever instrument they are abusing... That, I can unreservedly say ~ I HATE!!!
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Michael wrote: "Where I play, learning tunes on the fly IS the way we learn tunes. And noodling is resolutely disallowed."
Amen.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will CPT, I think everyone is basically on the same page here. But my guess is, when someone in your group noodles a few phrases to learn a tune, they are not disrupting the concentration and enjoyment of others around them, right? I think that is the main argument I have against most folks who are poor noodlers - they disrupt the session.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Ahhh damn, now I have to think of a good faffing tee-shirt...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
JNE, no one at my session "noodles a few phrases." Not for long anyway, because we don't put up with random faffing. No, they play the tune. Nearly everyone does something similar--they listen to the tune one time around (usually sussing out the tonal center and general contour), then they play the bits that stick the second time around. On the third go, they're filling in the rest. It;s not unusual for someone to ask for it a fourth or fifth time if they don't have it all yet. And we'll even use the lull between sets to ask about a particular phrase or variation.
Obviously, we spend most of the evening playing tunes we all know, so it's not like people are constantly learning tunes on the fly. It's at most a handful of tunes on any given night, and sometimes none at all.
And because our session works this way, we're not easily distracted when someone fluffs a note or phrase. We can carry the music through pretty much anything. It doesn't spoil our fun or our enjoyment of the music. This is a strength that I've often found missing in players who never abide any learning-on-the-fly. I'd rather be like those folks on the cell phone clip who not only kept playing but hustled over to the offending cell phone user and made a ruckus, all in sport, without the music falling apart.
And no, I don't think all of us are on the same page. I think it's a shame when learning-on-the-fly is discouraged within this tradition. The vast majority of great players I've been lucky enough to sit in with have always encouraged it, welcomed it, even. And I've heard less experienced players egged into trying it even though their attempts aren't much better than noodling or faffing. "You can't learn it if you don't do it," I've heard many times at sessions.
Certainly rank beginners are better off building some skill at this in private, preferably with an able friend or in lessons. But anyone with some years of wallowing in all these tunes and playing their instrument up to snuff ought to be encouraged to learn tunes on the fly. Pick one unfamilar tune at your next session and give it a whirl. Don't try it with every new tune that comes along that session--just one, for starters. Be discreet. You might ask first if it's okay to try. And keep a sense of humor about it--it's supposed to be fun.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Piper's rule 1A- never noodle on a set of pipes- people glare and then think that the best the instrument can do.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by I_Fel
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
"But anyone with some years of wallowing in all these tunes and playing their instrument up to snuff ought to be encouraged to learn tunes on the fly."
This is the KEY statement CPT, and my rant is directed squarely at those who have not done any of the things you mention, yet prattle along playing competing notes in the hopes they might accidently slide across a correct one. Someone genuinely immersed in the tradition learning tunes on the fly is a far and distant cry from a someone searching loudly for notes, or worse, some Bluegrasser who thinks they can just sit in and "jam along." As I mentioned in a few above posts, I pick up many tunes at my sessions "on the fly" but do not attempt to play them out loud until I have a firm mental grasp of the melody. So yes, at the end of all this battle of semantics, I think we are indeed on the same page.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Consider this actual scenario that happened a while back. We were having a session that included a world-class player from Ireland and it had various local very accomplished musicians in attendance, one of which prided himself on his abilities to pick up tunes on the fly. This particular player had himself gained an international reputation as an ITM player and no one questioned his proclaimed abilities... except me... but I kept it to myself. At one point during the session when the visiting musician was playing a semi-obscure tune, our local luminary was "picking it up on the fly" and the visiting player stopped and turned to him saying, "Do you know this tune?" And the local luminary responded with, "I heard it before." to which the visitor said, "Well could you please stop noodling because it's putting me off." Then the visitor resumed playing and the local left out of embarrassment and anger. Of course everyone rallied around the local player, and after the visitor left town he was accused of being "elitist" etc., but I secretly agreed with him. That same local player will show up now and then and noodle in the same way he always has convinced that he's spot on -- and it still puts me off... but I dare not say anything.
So what I get from some of the comments in this thread is that it’s a deficiency on my part that I’m put off by people picking up tunes on the fly, or noodling.
Will writes: "In short, perhaps the reason no one at PB's session can pick up tunes on the fly well (except for one or two alleged savants) is that it is so frowned upon to even try."
Of course, according to theory, if these people were really successful at doing such a thing – I wouldn’t notice it. But the conclusion seems to be that it’s my fault if noodling puts me off, and the noodler is cool, and people that show up at sessions I’m at are unfortunate to have to put up with my deficiencies or irrational intolerance.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
No button, it's your fault for "keeping it to yourself" and "secretly agreeing".
One of the reasons people get away with noodling is 'cause no-one has the courage too tell to 'em to "button it".
Keep in mind the difference. If you notice someone noodling, then, by definition, they are. So tell 'em. To successfully learn tunes in a session, it must appear that you just miraculously pluck them out of the ether
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
No, you can definitely tell when someone is learning a tune on the fly, even when they're doing it well and discreetly. In fact, it's their discretion that draws attention because they're aren't at full volume and there will be gaps where they haven't sussed out the notes yet.
After years of sitting in with people who pick up tunes this way, I can't say I've ever felt it was distracting, and I've never run into a player worth his salt who would stop someone from doing this at a session. As I said above, I've sat in with some well-known A-tier players who've all welcomed (and in some cases even insisted) that others learn a tune on the fly.
Jack, it sounds like yer man who claims the ability isn't even going about it in a healthy way--not only is he not actually getting the tune on the fly, but he's apparently playing indiscreetly enough to annoy you and others in the circle.
That's NOT learning tunes on the fly. That's noodling, which you have every right to put a stop to. Rather than suffer it in silence, if I were in your shoes (those would be big shoes to fill), I'd privately offer some tips on how to learn on the fly. And if he kept noodling, never improving, I'd *tell* him to stop.
JNE, some of what I've just typed here gets at your example of a bluegrasser who noodles all over the tunes, too. But I still think it's more than just semantics. Some sessions are very tolerant of people fumbling the notes now and then, whether playing tunes they allegedly already know or learning on the fly. Some sessions are far less tolerant, aiming for something closer to music with no audible imperfections. Either of these is fine, if that's what the participants want their session to be. I enjoy both types of sessions. But I prefef a blend of the two--good musicians well steeped in the music who really don't give a damn about a few clinkers or someone working out a tune on the fly.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Yes, I'm glad Llig said it, as that was what I was thinking, in general.
Button: "So what I get from some of the comments in this thread is that it’s a deficiency on my part that I’m put off by people picking up tunes on the fly, or noodling. - if these people were really successful at doing such a thing – I wouldn’t notice it. But the conclusion seems to be that it’s my fault if noodling puts me off, and the noodler is cool, and people that show up at sessions I’m at are unfortunate to have to put up with my deficiencies or irrational intolerance."
NO, NOOOO, NOOOOOOO!!!
Learn the difference, and have the balls to pick up that aspect from your visiting 'world-class player' ~ to be able to say when appropriate ~
"-could you please stop noodling because it's putting me off."
That seems more than fair and reasonable. If someone is putting you off and cramping your enjoyment of this music, say something. Don't stew over it and hold it inside to fester...
But I'm still very much in Will's camp, as far as his clear explanation, and as also stated by others, there is a BIG difference, BIG differences between the irritating act of doing it loudly and intrusively and with out respect or understanding of the music or the dynamics of the gathering you're present in. I think that is why it isn't such a bad idea to deal with it in a class or workshop environment. I don't shy away from dealing with 'session' as an important subject for discussion where any promotion of this music takes place.
But back to Will ~ "You can't learn it if you don't do it!"
This applies to dance too. You have to give it a try or you'll never make it at all. That doesn't mean you start out beating your feet against the floor. You start out softly, receptively, and slowly you acquire your legs. Yes, there will be the occassional mishap, and yes, some people have more than others. Some are akin to swinging around a sack of potatoes. But, with us anyway, the welcome remains open and understanding, as it was with those that invited me into their dance or their music. I never felt judged or excluded. But, I never pushed forward either. I listened, I asked, I took suggestions and direction with attention... That respect of the thing and the people involved in it, is paramount. 'Noodling' in the worst sense is disrespectul and discourteous. It is rude. It doesn't deserve consideration ~ but understanding it might. As said, 'noodlers' are not always aware of what they do, those that do it intrusively. If you ignore it, say with a beginner or the naive, they might grow into the noodling monster you now have in your session Button. In a sense your lack of willingness to confront the problem has helped to maintain it and allow it to grow in stature and irritation...
But then, I'm not necessarily the bravest person to be saying this... So, instead, I deal with it from the start, whenever I'm teaching an instrumental class. But I also deal with the equivalent when teaching dance ~ steps or figures... Any YES, there are equivalents... I also am not shy when it comes to trying to reduce those acts of disrespect by being outspoken, where I'm involved integrally in the event, as you seem to be in yours...
Best of luck...
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I would generally say that people that have the ability to pick up tunes on the fly need to *pick and choose* their times to do it. I do it occasionally, but generally only with tunes I've heard a number of times, but never tried playing.
But I wouldn't even consider doing it in a session with people that I never play with, unless I was encouraged to do so. The only time I ever do it is when I'm playing with people that I'm familiar with, and at least pretty darn sure that we're close enough that they'd tell me to shut up if I was bothering them.
Doing it (to show off?) in front of a "world class player from Ireland" would be plain stupid. Mind you, I don't consider myself as having an "international reputation" either (unless you consider that one incident in Killarney...)
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
The proudest moment for me is when I see those I've taught, music or dance, exercising patience and care with someone new, or less capable. I've seen a set or session worth of folks welcome others in that are less capable, and with their care and skill being able to carry any problems with good humour. That way is the way that helps to build confidence and skill in others. You can't progress in anything without confindence ~ and some direction...
We also have those that will probably never quite get it, the music or the dance, but there are enough of us about who can carry it off and carry them along with us. I have an older friend who's memory is going, badly, music and dance, and I still am honoured to share either with him. We always make sure he is opposite us in the dance, if we can, because we know we can manage, whatever goes amiss. I also have learned to follow him even if he does get the parts screwed up, or loses it, or repeats the same tune or set several times in a sitting. It is his company and humour I value. The hiccups are not a problem, for me anyway...
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Good point, made by Will and others ~ for those that can, it is the occassional tune, or not at all. The hell of one type of 'worst case' noodler is the one that does it for almost everything, all the time, or nearly all the time, and loudly. Some do it even with tunes they claim to know... That is a situation where something really does have to be said, as Llig and probably the rest of us know, from experience... Serious intrusions like that should not be tolerated...
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
"The only time I ever do it is when I'm playing with people that I'm familiar with, and at least pretty darn sure that we're close enough that they'd tell me to shut up if I was bothering them." ~ Reverend
What I was trying to say was ~ Ditto!!!
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Amen to Reverend's point. The fact that Button's man noodled over a visiting illuminary really says it all--he's feckin clueless. Instead of storming out, he should have appoligzed profusely and bought a round for everyone.
I should no because I did that once. I noodled all over a wonderful tune Eliot (our Eliot of the mustard board, he of the math Ph.D. and knack for sussing the odds) was playing at a house session. Eliot definitely qualifies as a luminary (and a gracious one at that) in my book.
He paused long enough to tell me to shut the feck up. It was shortly thereafter that I tallied up how much I'd had to drink that day and it came to something like a shot glass shy of oblivion. For that, I apologize.
For me, 'c's story about his awkward dancing friend and my own story on myself are important reminders that a session (or a dance) is supposed to be sociable and fun. We're human, mistakes happen, foibles rise to the surface. If you want to avoid all that, host a private session or play in a band (good luck). But if you have a session (not a gig) in a pub, accept that hiccups and occasional burps, farts, and worse are part of the ride and learn to enjoy yourself and your companions regardless.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Ceol writes: "Learn the difference, and have the balls to pick up that aspect from your visiting 'world-class player' ~ to be able to say when appropriate ~
"-could you please stop noodling because it's putting me off."
~~~
This is what he did, and I told you what happened. It wasn't pretty. When you DO speak up the other people in the session tend to sympathize with the noodler and they’ll consider you an “elitist” or a "snob" for speaking up.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Weren't you better off with the luminary free to play and the tosser gone out the door?
Maybe another way to look at it is you're in the minority at your own session. If most of the people don't mind noodling of that caliber, maybe you need to start a different session with the standard more clearly set.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Erm, I only say that because that's what we did here--after getting no where with diplomacy, a few of us started another session. When one of the worst noodlers (more like basher) invited himself in, he was told to feck off. Worked like a charm.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Sometimes it's not pretty, when you "tell" someone. So What. It's still for the best.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
In fact, it sounds like this noodler did what he did because the session allowed--even accepted--it. So a visitor was put off because no one ever stopped the noodler before. That's a shame.
And again, if people think noodling is "learning tunes on the fly," then they'll never actually learn how to learn tunes on the fly. So it's a vicious circle.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
BTW, Jack, I apologize for throwing what looks like a crapper full of unsolicited advice at you. I don't think you were looking for any advice at all. But really, all I'm doing is thinking out loud about the situation you've described and pondering how we've dealt with similar issues. Sorry if it comes across as Dear Abby-ish.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
The session in question was in honor of the visiting musician and in a private residence. I have indeed made it known locally that I don't appreciate people learning tunes on the fly if it disrupts the flow of the music. I'm not trying to win any popularity contests -- I just want to enjoy a few tunes with my friends and whomever else happens by.
Thanks Will.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Three of us got together a few nights ago for some tunes. A knowledgeable fiddler and I (I play flute and concertina) and another fiddler. The first fiddler and I were playing Princess Royale - not a very obscure tune. All night long the second fiddler had been plucking the strings, fiddle held like a mandolin, on tunes she didn't know.
On this tune I found her formless plucking too distracting to continue. I stopped and politely but firmly said, "Please don't do that." She looked startled, but stopped her noodling.
I hope she's reading this and will understand why we'll never invite her over again for some tunes. I'll be leaving town soon so there's no point in confronting her. But perhaps other noodlers will realize how distracting and unpleasant noodling can be.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by cocus
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
The other thing I might note is that even * when* I do it, about 75% of the time, I get a clue that what I'm trying isn't cutting it, and I shut up all on my own, because it's annoying *me*, even though I'm probably more sensitive about it than the other players there are...
The point is to be aware of what you're doing, just like you should be when playing tunes you know.
And speaking of that, there are numerous times that I don't play a tune I actually *know*, because I don't want to interrupt a nice groove that other players have happening...
For me, it's all about awareness...
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
My hunch is that people who noodle are uncomfortable if their not playing on nearly every tune. This isn't necessarily a conscious thing, but rather a compulsion. At least that's what it seemed to be with me. After becoming aware of the effect my noodling (learning tunes on the fly) was having on my fellow musicians, I decided to stop doing it. I would be sitting and listening and my arms would actually start to pick up the instrument and start playing like an errant child. I would have to consciously stop myself from doing it. Eventually I learned to relax and the compulsion went away. Now I learn tunes at sessions by listening and I don't attempt them on the instrument until the tune is well in my head.
When visiting ITM luminaries visit our sessions I notice they tend to sit and listen to tunes they don't know. Has anyone ever seen people at a world-class level noodling?
(I see noodling and learning tunes on the fly as being synonymous. If someone actually can learn tunes on the fly successfully it won’t sound like they’re noodling -- it will just sound like they’re playing the tune.)
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I'm afraid we have some world class noodlers over here --let me know if you'd like to come visit and I'll make sure they all show up to demonstrate their collective cluelessness! That said, a few stern reprimands seems to have made all the difference in the world. (Of course, there are exceptions to the rule)
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by leoj
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
On second thought, I'll send them all over to your place! (You can thank me later)
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by leoj
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Leoj, um, where is "here"?
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Well, it'd be impossible to learn a tune you never heard before on the fly, I would imagine. When I try to 'learn a tune on the fly' or whatever phrase we're using to avoid the never ending confusion between that and noodling, it's to one I've heard before and it's in my head already. I know there are some amazing brains in the world that can sit down and pick out a tune they've never heard before, but doing what I'm talking about here is not, for me, done to tunes I've never heard before. It's part of the normal learning process. "Oh man, there's that tune I've heard Bob play at the last few sessions. Yup, oh...yup, OK. There's that little part, and...oh, yup, OK, I bet I got that little part there, let me try it...yup, sure enough, OK, now what comes next? [listens closely] Oh, OK...uh-huh, I think I got it here..."
I mean, if you're one of those amazing people who can sit down, hear something the first time ever in their lives and play it correctly 'on the fly', well howza bout dat? Fair play to ya.
I think the vast majority of us should NOT be playing along to tunes we don't know, but that's not what most of us are talking about on this thread. What I'm espousing is learning on the fly tunes you sort of know by playing those parts you do know, quietly and without annoying anyone, and listening intently to the remainder. Like Llig says you just may surprise yourself by picking out the rest. Or not, it may be next week when Bob plays it again, but you're getting there without ticking off Bob.
I'd love to say that every tune I've heard someone play that I wanted to learn, I've recorded, or asked the name of, etc. That's in magical perfect world land. In reality, there's a million of them I've heard a few times which stuck in my brain and then get dredged up when someone plays it again, and off we go. "I know this part, that part, what's that part again?" Stop playing, listen, "Oh yeah!" etc. etc.
I think it's pretty clear what we're talking about at this point. Is there still confusion?
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
The best cure for noodling is to sit in with a ceili band playing for set-dancers, when it's outside your area and they're playing a fair proportion of tunes you don't know. You either shut up or you play, and the magic thing is that under those circumstances you actually do play the tunes in real time at dance speed. Whether you can remember and play those tunes the next day at home is an entirely different matter, though
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Is there still confusion?
IMHO: Maybe the "attitude" and communication part. There is a goodly disparity between being gentle with someone, and "So what?" Life must be much simpler when you don't have to give a damn about others feelings.
Nevertheless, in the past I noodled, and was summarily hit over the head with a "clue-by-four" for doing so. It was not very politely done on me, they were not the politest people, but I was interfering with their enjoyment and getting in their space, THEIRS, NOT MINE. They were within their rights, I think.
The point was taken, I was grateful for the lesson, no whining or posturing.
So since then, I do not attempt to "jump in" clueless when others are playing a tune they know and enjoy. At times I would not appreciate others doing so to me and my fellows.
My two cents, post-inflation.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Rook
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
If you're bugging anyone, you're not doing it correctly (correctly? not bugging anyone!) and you should stop, obviously. However, I may be old fashioned. I think there's never any reason for a lack of manners, and it goes both ways. Bugging people while doing it is a lack of manners, and telling people to f off instead of being polite but firm is a lack of manners as well. So is taking a polite but firm request personally and stalking off.
Rereading some more above this jumped out again, from Will:
"...you can definitely tell when someone is learning a tune on the fly, even when they're doing it well and discreetly. In fact, it's their discretion that draws attention because they're aren't at full volume and there will be gaps where they haven't sussed out the notes yet."
Great word, "discretion". It's not to be done all the time, or even for every tune you know a part of, really. Just because that one little part is the same as that other tune doesn't mean you should rip along on the whole thing, or even just play that little part every time it comes around. Folks often have that need, discussed above, to play all the time or they feel like they are missing out. Listening and listening while playing are different experiences, both invaluable.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
What about people who can write down the tune they have been "noodling", immediately afterwards?
If someone is annoying you by noodling, keep easing the volume down until the noodler is louder than you, then fade out and leave them on their own.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Jack, I have seen world class players pick up tunes on the fly, routinely. I've had them learn tunes from me (of all things). I've had them do it when afterwards they said, "What's the name of that--I've never heard it before."
Noodling and learning tunes on the fly are NOT synonymous for me. Anyone can noodle. But to learn on the fly you have to have command of your instrument and a great intuitive feel for this music. Neither of those is beyond the average session player with some solid years of listening and playing under his or her belt.
SWFL, this music is chock full of short, repetitive, "easy" tunes that anyone with a lick of familiarity with their intstrument and the music in general can learn in three times around ***even if they've never heard that specific tune before.*** That's the fundamental logic behind this music in the first place--thousands of tunes, the vast majority of them in one of three keys or their relative modes, all built out of a fairly small bag of common phrases and motifs.
So it's actually fiarly easy to pick up tunes you've never heard before.
That whole reasoning is almost moot, however, because after a few years of sitting in sessions and listening to the music wherever you can get your ears on it, chances are you've heard a healthy sample of all the tunes out there, most of them more than once. After 30 years in this game, it's rare for me to hear a tune I haven't heard before.
But it's also true that good musicians in any aural genre (duh...ALL music is aural, but you know what I mean) such as rock, jazz, bluegrass, etc., become adept at picking up tunes on the fly. One of the tests to get into big swing bands back in the day was whether the candidate could instantly play along to any melody the band leader chose. If you couldn't pick up tunes on the fly, you need not apply for the job.
I've played in rock and bluegrass bands, I've played old timey, jammed with swing and jazz musicians, and I've played Irish for 30 years. They all put a premium in being able to pick up tunes on the fly--I've rarely played with musicians who didn't. And I'm not talking about improvising around a theme; I mean actually playing the tune. So it's actually surprising to me to hear people say it can't be done, or that they've never heard it done successfully. For me, it's part and parcel of playing music.
Mind you, there are people who are much quicker at it than I am. One of our local whistle players is truly gifted at it. And I've seen loads of great players at festival sessions picking tunes off each other like mad.
I know I've told the story here before about when Mark O'Connor joined the Grisman band. His first night with them happened to be in Bozeman, MT, where I was working at the Flatiron mandolin shop. Grisman and Mike Marshall came in and played some tunes with us. Someone asked about O'Connor and Grisman said he was still at the hotel, in bed. O'Connor stayed up late the night before learning ***50*** of the bands numbers from recordings, picking up all of Tony Rice's guitar breaks note for note, and also working up his own stuff for fiddle, guitar, and mandolin.
If Mark O'Connor, musical savant that he is, can learn 50 Grisman pieces in one night, why is it so "impossible" for a decent musician to pick up a 32-bar tune on the fly? I think it's sad to see people playing this music with such low expectations of themselves and others. Particularly if that prevents them from ever even trying to learn such a useful, fun, and wholly musical skill.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will CPT, I think it's not so much they can't do it, it's that they have not learned how to *let* themselves do it. I can't do it for Irish tunes (yet... maybe one day) but for jazz, blues, bluegrass, it was just what I usually did. But there's a knack, you have to let go and jump and hope for the best, and trust that the instrument and your fingers and whatever the magic is, will carry you, and incredibly, it usually works and you find yourself playing stuff you never knew you knew, isn't that right ?
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Yes, there is a leap of faith to be made. But with such densely melodic music as our beloved jigs and reels, at such a pace, it's not as simple as, say, swinging along to an old jazz or folk song.
For instance, the difference between loping along to the Tennessee Waltz on the fly and picking up a tune like Tom McElvogue's #3 on the fly is that the latter goes at a much faster clip, the 'bare bones" melody has 2 to 4 times as many notes per major downbeat, and it belongs to a very narrow, finely nuanced class of tunes known as Irish reels. Whereas Tennessee Waltz is just a staightforward waltz, with lyrics, almost always played at a dirge pace.
So it does take some chops, a good ear for intervals and subtle twiddly bits to pick up a reel on the fly at session pace. More than just a leap of faith (which often ends in random noodling if you don't have the chops or the ear yet).
But I have to emphasize the "yet." Just because too many tossers noodle over the music without ever really learning how to pick up tunes on the fly doesn't mean that good musicians can't pick up tunes on the fly. I've seen and heard it done at almost every session I've been to. I can do it myself, and believe me, I'm just yer average session player. And I like to think I'm not self-delusional.
Picking up stuff on the fly is crucial to a good session, in fact. It's how you mesh with what your session mates are playing. If "the same tune is never the same tune twice," then you have to use your ears and chops to go with the flow as you careen through a tune. The other option is to pre-arrange your tunes into sets, and to not vary too widely from how you play the tunes. I've sat in with people who play like that, too, and it very quickly deadens the music. You might as well play along to recordings.
In contrast, when you can play by the seat of your pants and really gibe with your session mates, you're free to play off each other much more, make the tunes come freshly alive each time, and have a kick-arse session. For me, this is what live music is all about. I understand that some people enjoy polishing up arrangements for the studio or performance, and some even carry that over into sessions (I am *not* pointing the finger at anyone here). But that's not my cuppa tea, and for me, that really dulls a session.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Sorry to rant like this, but "fear of flying" really can kill a session. People end up playing tunes only "as scripted," and it never varies, and they trainwreck if you put tunes together on the fly because they "like it when they know exactly what's coming next," and they trainwreck if two notes go astray, and they prefer to play what they played last week, where everyone knows their parts, and it's like a damn orchestra playing off the page. Sorry...that's not a session, it's a recital.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will CPT - I have very much enjoyed your passion for this subject and your insightful posts. Your comments regarding knowledge of the instrument and ear training with regards to learning tunes "at speed" is spot on. I also agree that this aural tradition needs to foster these skills as a means of learning.
However, none of this negates much of what Button and others have said regarding clueless "noodlers." They need to be made aware of their felonious ways and redirected to your line of thinking - or boiled like the pasta they are.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
You are all far superior to me if you have never hit a bad note.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Every player since time began, from Paganini downwards, hits bad notes. The BIG problem is not knowing when you hit a bad note. The BIGGER problem is if you do know it and don't do anything about it.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
JNE, agreed. I don't care for random noodling, either. But if someone is actually getting the tune, then I have no problems.
Muse, even the best players hit bum notes when playing tunes and settings they've rehearsed over and over. Music isn't about perfection, it's about expression. No one here is talking about never hitting a "bad" note (whatever that may mean). If that's what you're striving for, you won't likely enjoy playing live music.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
It may be the fear of hitting bum notes that keeps some people from learning how to pick up tunes on the fly. But the same people hit bum notes playing tunes that they know inside and out--it happens to everyone.
And the best way to hit fewer clinkers when learning on the fly is to practice learning on the fly. Sure, do it in private first. But at some point, you can do it in a session and not bother anyone but the perfectionists (who shouldn't be playing in a pub anyway
).
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will writes: "Jack, I have seen world class players pick up tunes on the fly, routinely. I've had them learn tunes from me (of all things). I've had them do it when afterwards they said, "What's the name of that--I've never heard it before.""
~~~
I'm not doubting you, and you do tell us your session is regarded as a "learning" session. But my experience is different. I've played in a lot of sessions around Ireland that have included top-shelf players and there are times when I'll be invited to “lash out a couple of tunes” and one of the 2 or three tunes I play will be unknown to them. Their response has been to sit and listen, and then join in again on the next one... if they know it. (This is also what I do.) Afterwards they'll say, "What was the name of that second one; I've never heard it before." I've also seen the same thing happen when tunes come up that other musicians start that have the same response. And I've seen the same thing happen when the same top-shelf players show up at our sessions here in SF. The unwritten rule seems to be not to play tunes you don’t know.
So what I'm thinking, (and this has always been my main thrust in these discussions,) is that there are different session styles rather than a universal style. If I were to go to Will's session I might actual try to pick up a tune on the fly since that's what everyone else appeared to be doing. But the sessions around Ireland I went to, and most that I attend here in SF -- I'm not inclined.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will writes: "Noodling and learning tunes on the fly are NOT synonymous for me. "
~~~
What I meant is that if someone isn’t successful at "learning tunes on the fly" it amounts to be just noodling. If someone IS successful, I wouldn't notice they were learning tunes on the fly and therefore it wouldn't sound like noodling.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Um, my local weekly sessions are NOT a "learning" session. (And I don't know how you misunderstood that.) They're just sessions. I used to host a monthly tune learning session--that wasn't really a session, more of a free group lesson where anyone could lead a tune for others to learn. Two totally different animals.
Jack, if someone is picking up a tune on the fly so well that you can't tell, then how do you know when people are doing it? Maybe they've been doing it around you all the time, and you just assume they already know the tune?
There may be different styles of sessions, but obviously there are also different personal approaches to sessioning. And people who can learn tunes on the fly do it at all sorts of sessions, sometimes even where the noodle and tune learning police are out in force.
I'm glad I've played with people (many from Ireland) who encourage learning on the fly. I'm glad my local session welcomes it.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
"Has anyone ever seen people at a world-class level noodling?" ~ Button
Yes, including in Ireland ~ in the best sense of the form, as others like Will & the Rev have defined and discussed previously... I can't think of a musical gathering in dear Eire where it didn't happen. No, it wasn't me, necessarily...
To repeat the Rev ~ "-it's all about awareness..." (including self-awareness)
Some of us are sensitive enough to irritate ourselves, to be more than aware of when we've overstepped the mark, so there's no way we'd want to subject someone else to the same intrusion... I also am most fond of just listening and appreciating what others do, or not (appreciating)...
Button: "people who noodle are uncomfortable if their not playing on nearly every tune."
That's another that falls under 'worst case', along with the errant harmonizer and the tone deaf...
I'm way out of practice, and not 'amazing', but yes, I could sit down, hear a tune once and play it soon afterwards... I didn't find that as some unheard of skill in my travels. Lots of folks I've had the pleasure of knowing through music could do it, didn't question it. But much of that comes from having played a lot of tunes and a lot of times and being sympatico with the form...second nature... It only comes with time and practice, and needs regular exercise, which doesn't mean playing that way for every damn tune, as hopefully there would be few that required that if you were at your regular session. If visiting, at least with me, I would be unlikely to exercise it amongst strangers...
Returning to what Will said ages back ~ it isn't something you need to or want to exercise often, in the best sense. It might be one or two tunes in an evening, if that, if at all...
Lazyhound raised another issue ~ playing for dancers. We used to use a sound system and only those who knew, and were the hired guns, played to mikes. But, we had openings for others ~ to noodle, but never into a microphone. What was impressive was the progress most of those noodlers made musically, if not all, under that open door policy, our welcome and guidance. Being miked and monitored we hadn't any worry that the guest noodlers would throw us off our groove, fun...
I had a good chuckle at Geoff's suggestion of turning the volume down around an inconsiderate noodler...
Will, again: "-to learn on the fly you have to have command of your instrument and a great intuitive feel for this music. Neither of those is beyond the average session player with some solid years of listening and playing under his or her belt." & with me in further agreements that it is "-such a useful, fun, and wholly musical skill." & satisfying...
I'm always listening to others, whether or not I'm playing as well, and if I'm playing, I'm often doing another type of noodling ~ picking up the way others play a tune, how they vary it, how they decorate it. My interest in the music is also in the musician and a part of some aspect of that, which touches on this subject, noodling, is trying out what someone else does ~ on the fly, whether or not we're both playing the same instrument. Differences in instruments adds another level of interest. I love that. It is what helps to bring us together, a nod of respect and appreciation... I also love the surprises, and sometimes even mistakes or a 'bad note' can add interest, can turn into or toward an interesting alternate take. God has blessed some of us with the ability to know the differences. Others, sadly, seem completely bereft of any sensory ability to know the misery they make, the abuse they level on music and the rest of us present. But, sometimes, a bad note is a good joke, raises a laugh with the embarrasment... I count myself fortunate that I am embarrassed when I screw up.
Eejit: "-this aural tradition needs to foster these skills (with consideration and awareness) as a means of learning."
I've been enjoying following this... You all weave a great discussion...
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will writes: "Um, my local weekly sessions are NOT a "learning" session. (And I don't know how you misunderstood that.) "
~~
I think I must have run the first two paragraphs in my memory from your first post on this thread (below)... sorry.
Will wrote in his first post: "I always encourage people to learn tunes on the fly (especially at my local sessions).
People who are new to that tend to flail around a lot and hit lots of bum notes. So I hosted a monthly tune learning session, in people's living rooms rather than in a public place. And I encouraged people to practice learning by ear from recordings (one way that recordings can be useful)."
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will writes: "Jack, if someone is picking up a tune on the fly so well that you can't tell, then how do you know when people are doing it? Maybe they've been doing it around you all the time, and you just assume they already know the tune?"
~~~
That's my point: you shouldn't notice successful attempts at learning tunes on the fly. I only notice the unsuccessful attempts. The perpetrators usually claim to be successful at it. I still say it's a bit of an emperor's new clothes endeavor for the most part.
In the scenario I provided in this thread the perpetrator would boast about his abilities regarding this. I guess people who are successful remain discreet and never mention it.
I still say that should have a category for it in the All Irelands.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Good post, c.
It definitely is part of the craic for me to trade musical ideas back and forth with other players. It's proof that you're actually listening to each other instead of each playing in their own soundproof silo. Also, it's fun to hear what other people come up with and to echo that, and then to change it a little, or play the same idea in a different part of the tune.
All of this is about enjoying the unpredictable, the element of surprise, of serendipity, of chance, and sometimes of the "mistake" made beautiful.
None of this came easy for me, and I'm far from being as good at it as I'd like. But I'm improving by *doing,* and by playing with people who are much better at it than I am. That's fun, too, and it speaks to a generosity of spirit when people encourage others to stretch their musical capabilities, and when you can be adaptive in your own playing to help someone else feel welcome or supported because you've joined in (even though the tune was unfamiliar just moments before).
There's also something about being so in-the-moment with another player, given how ephemeral music is. Now and then, two people in such a groove will play the same variation, or turn to the same tune as the next in the set, with no idea the other was going to do the same. And that's one of the best feelings you can have--as close to communion as it gets. I've had it where we're all cranking away on some old war horse, and suddenly two of us veer together into some obscure tune neither of us has played in years, and the hair on my neck goes up.
I love this music anyway, but when it's fully interactive this way, the juice really gets flowing.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Jack wrote: "In the scenario I provided in this thread the perpetrator would boast about his abilities regarding this. I guess people who are successful remain discreet and never mention it."
I suppose so. Never really thought about it before. Can't say I play much with anyone who boasts about any aspect of their playing. Geesh, even folks like John Carty and Brian Conway are pretty demure about their talents, self deprecating even. I honestly haven't run into many boastful players in Irish music. That might be a clue right from the start.
As I said above, I wish I was better at it than I am. But it doesn't strike me as a peculiar skill, or one that's beyond most people's grasp. It just takes doing and paying attention, like anything else in this music.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I wonder what the likes of people like John Carty and Brian Conway would say about learning tunes on the fly at sessions. As I said, my observation has been that people on that level don't do it, and the few times I remember the subject being discussed at all, it seemed to be fround on for the most part. The only time I notice it happening is when the pedestrians ITM musicians like ourselves are involved.
I'm curious, Will, have you asked John Carty and Brian Conway specifically if they learn tunes on the fly like this? Or I wonder if they choose instead to listen when tunes they rarely or never heard before come up at sessions.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Heh, I doubt John or Brian often hear tunes they don't already know. I don't think we stumped Brian or Felix at the house session they sat in on....
The topic doesn't often come up--not the sort of thing you talk about when you're just playing tunes and having fun. But I've certainly heard mixed reports. Kevin Burke was quoted once as saying he doesn't learn tunes at sessions because "they go by too fast." Don't know if that's apocryphal or not. When I asked Kevin myself, he said "Try to pick up key phrases, rather than the whole tune. That'll come later." Which sounds like he's okay with picking up phrases (on your instrument? Or just in your head?) at sessions.
Some folks suggest just recording tunes at sessions and learning them at home, which seems reasonable enough. Seamus Connolly says "its not easy" and recommends recording. Verena Commins says she listens at sessions, but if it's a straightforward tune in an easy key, she'll "have it by the third time round." Tunes in less friendly keys, she just listens. She finished by saying sessions are better for absorbing tunes rather than learning them right out.
Turloch Boylan says play quietly when learning tunes at sessions.
So it's not totally verboten, though people certainly acknowledge that it can be disruptive if it's not done with discretion. The folks I've heard talk about it also echo Verena in being selective with which tune you choose to learn on a given night.
So. I've seen some great players do it--Joannie Madden (on whistle) and half the gang of that year's incarnation of Cherish the Ladies, Liz Carroll, Johnny Cunningham, and Paul Kotapish spring to mind.
A lot depends on what the mood is, whether a "must have" tune pops up that stumps the player in question, quantities of alcohol involved, etc. I don't think you can say it's a yes/no sort of thing--varies from place to place, from person to person, and from night to night. So if a session is the "featured entertainment" in the front room of the pub, might be better to just listen and absorb. But a cozy sesh among friends in the snug may be more amenable to picking up a tune or two over the course of the evening. Eh?
Of course, part of the beauty of learning a tune on the fly is that it CAN be done by us mere mortals--you don't have to be stellar. Just quick at catching the melody.
Funny that so many of us learn this music aurally, yet some people frown on doing so outside of a private lesson or workshop.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Our answers are doomed to be anecdotal, but whether learning on the fly happens at sessions or not is probably fairly situational anyway.
Another way of thinking about all this is that decent players are always rethinking how they play their tunes--even (especially) ones they've known for years. So at a session, if your ears are open and there are nuances and ideas swirling around the room, and you're not just playing the tune the same old way for the hundreth time, then you're learning on the fly. Not as dramatically as picking up a tune whole cloth for the first time. But still covering new terrain, risking derailment in hopes of discovering something new, of surprising yourself.
Here's where session shine, because unlike performances, no one cares if you resort to shuffling a bar or two when your wheels come off. As Barry Foy says, sessions are where the music does its homework, where it picks its nose. Yet the more you take these calculated risks, the better you get at it, and derailments grow rarer, easier to cover up. And the playing is much more lively.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will, did Verena tell you that personally, or did you read it somewhere? And what about Turloch Boylan? And how do you know Joannie Madden and the rest were doing it? I'm curious because you said, "The topic doesn't often come up--not the sort of thing you talk about when you're just playing tunes and having fun."
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Jack, I think what Will is trying to say is, just cause you can't do it doesn't mean others can't.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Dow
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I don't think that's what Will is saying, and I don't think this discussion is going to benefit from your derogatory innuendo, Mark.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
All these great musicians mentioned by Will - of *course* they'd be able to pick up tunes on the fly. Are you questioning their abilities? You need proof that these people are any good? Come off it. Anyone would think you'd never been to a session in Ireland before, the way you're talking.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Dow
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
A few years ago, I had email conversations with these folks. I happened to ask about learning on the fly at sessions. It dawned on me that I'd kept their emails in a file I'm using to write a book (and they knew they might be quoted in a book when they emailed with me).
With Joannie, it was at a session, and she picked up a jig I was playing--Wallop the Potlid. She got most of it right off, then asked what it was--said she'd never heard it before. BTW, she didn't "noodle"--she just sussed out the tune. Didn't bother me or throw me off my game at all.
Is the interogation over now? Am I free to leave? Or is someone pressing charges?
Jack, if I didn't know better, I'd wonder if you were trying to cast doubt on the veracity of my posts here. Makes me wonder what your point is. Is this discussion about understanding the breadth and depth of people's session experience, or are you suggesting your understanding is the only correct one? And perhaps your sources are the only valid ones? Or are you just trying to "win" an argument? Because I didn't think that was the point of this thread....
Um, lots of us here have friends in the trad world. It's a small yet well-traveled community.
Besides, most of the comments I relayed were damning with faint praise when it comes to picking up tunes on the fly at sessions. I'd think you'd be pleased. Unless you think it really *never* happens--that it's *only* done by noodlers who are all mouth and no chops.
But now I'm no doubt reading far too much into all this. No worries.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will writes: "if I didn't know better, I'd wonder if you were trying to cast doubt on the veracity of my posts here."
~~~
Not at all, I'm just comparing my impressions from experiences and conversations I've had with what others and yourself are saying. I'd say my approach is very close to what Verena described, and when Verena was here that's exactly what she did as far as I could tell. I have to admit I haven't interviewed people on the topic of learning tunes on the fly like you have, but my impression is that it's not done as widely as it seems to be suggested in this thread with the exception of simple and predictable tunes.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I should add that my earliest exposure to having people learn tunes on the fly were at local sessions here in SF where you would often have one or two people who actually know and play the tune being drowned out by four or five people noodling the tune on the fly, and I’m sure they each thought they were brilliant at it. The result of course was a monotonous cacophony. In more recent times the people who noodle tunes on the fly aren’t as numerous and the sessions have been much more musical and enjoyable.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Fair play.
But many, many (if not most) of the tunes we play are "simple and predictable." Okay, not the Gold Ring. Surely some Fahy and Reavy tunes are better left for your own kitchen. But that still leaves a good 5,000 or so tunes that aren't so daunting.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Cross posted. My experience has been very different. I've never met anyone who actually thought they were all that good at learning on the fly. (Well, one guitar player who could flat pick any bluegrass tune upon hearing it once, but I don't even he realized how much of a knack he had.)
So the people I've been around who do this do so very discreetly, only coming up in volume by the third or fourth go round. Interestingly, my current session mates who are good at this all got their ear chops while playing other genres (classical, jazz, and pop). But the skills transferred easily as soon as they'd listened to enough Irish trad to understand the basic structures and idioms of the music. And one of them has played Irish trad for several decades.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I've always maintained there are exceptions, and I know a few personally with extraordinary abilities along these lines, but I know a lot more people who only claim to have these abilities. They’re the ones causing the trouble because they're the ones you notice.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I wonder if learning on the fly is less common than it used to be (while random noodling may have increased?). Today's glut of recordings makes it easier to learn tunes at home, through endless listening, instead of having only three or four takes to absorb a tune. And perhaps the co-emergence of sessions and recordings also discourages spontaneity in people's playing. Session playing can lead to a certain "lowest-common-denominator" approach to learning basic, popular settings of tunes. No reason to stray too far--no one will hear you anyway, or the variations might not gibe with what everyone else is belting out. And learning from recordings tends to ingrain the settings and variations, repeated ad nauseum, because a recording is such a short snapshot of the music. Like a gnat fossilized in amber--not the same as the living, buzzing, careening insect. Plus the supposed perfection of recordings stifles risk taking--our ears are attuned to studio-cleansed, always-the-same, polished tracks. No room for error. Even if we don't hold ourselves to that standard, we imagine anyone listening to us might be making the comparison. So it's safer to stick to playing only what we know, what we've played before.
Which is one (of many) things I enjoy about John Carty's playing, for example. He charts new ground, he's not afraid to reach.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Cross posting again.
There's the nub of it, perhaps. I don't think there's anything "extraordinairy" about being able to learn these tunes on the fly. Sure, some people try it without the requisite instrumental chops and familiarity with the genre. But if you have those two ingredients, then all it takes is doing it and getting over the fear of fumbling. The more you do it, the more you can trust your ears, and the more successful you become with it.
Like every other skill we learn when learning this music, there is no "easy" and "hard." Only "familiar" and "unfamiliar."
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Good point, Will; I'm sure modern technology has its effect, but I was disappointed after I heard what turned out to be the source recordings many of the tunes I learned from sessions in the early days and discovered that subtle really tasty bits were smoothed out. Since then my MO at sessions is to ask people where they got a tune, and then I can sus it out and learn it at home before subjecting the session to it. This is a luxury that modern times allows me since we have the Internet and websites like this that function as tune clearinghouses.
There are simple and predictable tunes that I have successfully learned at sessions, but I'm not likely to jump in at first hearing. If they're dead simple I might by the third pass, but I usually wait until I recognize it on another occasion and then go for it.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Bugger! That is, in fact, how I first picked up The Gold Ring. It's got lots of parts, but they're all easy.
Most half-way decent musicians I know pick tunes up on the fly. They just don't do it all the time.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Actually, the point about the Gold Ring has got me thinking. I don't know whether we've had this conversation before, but I'm wondering what it is, exactly, that makes a tune harder or easier to pick up on the fly. 'Cos I don't think it's necessarily the number of parts. Some two part tunes sometimes elude me for quite some time, and other, longer tunes, I just get.
Hmmm ...
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
"And learning from recordings tends to ingrain the settings and variations, repeated ad nauseum, because a recording is such a short snapshot of the music"
That's only if you're only listening to one recording. Gather up a few different versions and there is much more to choose from, more ways of developing an approach, as in "well, you could play a double-cut there, but I've also heard it with a bowed triplet, a roll would work, but then a double stop sounds nice too"...and then it's up to the player to decide what sound they like best.
And if your friend at the local session plays it another way (or several ways), that's another source to add to the mix.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
We're verging on new discussion territory now ~ recordings ~ something that has been driving me bonkers these last few weeks as I've been listening intently to commercial recordings and looking at the wave forms and ALL THE CRAP DIGITAL DIDDLING!!! Musn't go there, those damned digital jockies who think they're sound techs, self-made and perpetuated ignorance ~ GRRRRRR!!! Alright, breath deeply, count to 10 in some other language and throw back a shot of something throat burning...
Now for a little extraction ~ from the contributions of others...
Will CPT: Kevin Burke was quoted once as saying he doesn't learn tunes at sessions because "they go by too fast."
'c': Sounds very likely. I have to admit it, sessions in the pub sense are not my greater experience. At the small gatherins I favour 'learning tunes on the fly' is part of it all. It isn't unusual for someone to even ask for it to pass with the tempo lowered to make the process easier...
Will CPT: - being selective with which tune you choose to learn on a given night... ~ a cozy sesh among friends in the snug may be more amenable to picking up a tune or two over the course of the evening. Eh?
'c': Yes, I'm happy if I get just one tune down from a friend or visitor in an evening of shared music and craic. Why push it any further? Excess is always, in my book, abuse, disrespectful and ignorant...
Will CPT: And perhaps the co-emergence of sessions and recordings also discourages spontaneity in people's playing. Session playing can lead to a certain "lowest-common-denominator" approach to learning basic, popular settings of tunes.
'c': Something else I wouldn't doubt, that makes sense. I've not known 'older' musicians, including some well known luminaries, who couldn't and didn't listen and follow with interest, including learning tunes or takes on the fly... Maybe I'm at fault for to a certain extent taking it for granted, as for me it is all part of the craic, part of the total picture ~ 'traditional', with respect of course and without over doing it...
When living in Ireland, or whenever at the height of being active in this, I could be out most nights playing music, or dancing to it, and with work, there wasn't any time left over to be fuffin' about at home trying to learn anything. I, and others, just did pick up things from each other on the fly. I suppose we never questioned it, as it was just a natural part of the whole process, not something alien, not something only a select few could do.
Moving away from those rich settings, well, I don't take it for granted anymore, and I've raised in my sensitivity to what others call 'noodling', of the errant and irritating variety. I also find that sadly, very few people do have it down as part of their art and understanding, in general. All the varieties of hell we've mentioned are suddenly more common ~ harmony noodlers, tune noodlers that seem to do it for EVERYTHING, noddlers full of themselves who see themselves as being able but are evidently (to my ears) not, and those who can only noodle, for whom I've never heard a complete recognizeable 32 bars ~ not ever. It is painful, even scary. Sometimes the only thing you can do is nurse your pint and find a far corner of the pub where you can chat loud enough to drown out these abuses levied on the music...
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Traditional Noodling 101
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Great. Now about intermediate noodling 201 and advanced noodling 301. Any takers?
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by leoj
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Kennedy, that works to some degree, but then you might be blending apples and oranges and coming out with a fruit salad version of the tune, rather than a more cohesive whole compote. Trying to blend Martin Hayes' take on a jig with Seamus Connolly's likely wouldn't sound like the same tune.
There's more to it than just the music, too. Learning off of recordings is such a sterile, self-directed process compared to the interaction of learning from someone actually playing the tune in front of you. This deepens even more when you play with the same person week in, week out. It's part of what makes a long-running session gel.
Jack describes learning a "smoothed out" setting at the session only to find it's source recording is much more nuanced, and so he learns the setting from the recording. Which is fine, except that some people (not suggesting Jack does) then hie to the recorded setting as though it's written in stone. Personally, I'd rather learn the smoothed out version and let my own immersion in the tradition guide me in fleshing it out--this is actually a farily common experience for me. Nine times out of ten, I have an echo of the tune in my head from having heard it played by others over the years, and I find myself playing cuts and rolls and slightly different melodic lines based on those echoes, thinking, "Huh, this sounds like how that fiddler from Vancouver played it," or "My memory hears this as played on pipes, which explains why I'm cranning the open D on my fiddle."
Ben, I picked the Gold Ring just because it's a multi part tune. The only thing hard about tunes like that (or the Strayaway Child) is keeping track of which part is which because they're so similar. The parts themselves are easy enough to pick up.
For me, on fiddle, the easiest tunes to learn on the fly are the ones that do a lot of rocking across strings over the chord progression, like Duke of Leinster or the Noisy Curlew or Humours of Scarrif. Weirdly, though, some more linear tunes like A Night In Ennis (aka the other Ashplant) or Never Was Piping so Gay just land and stick under my fingers right away. Some melodies just Tab A into my neural Slot B like they were made to fit.
Jigs are often easier than reels, maybe because the phrases tend to be shorter. Same with polkas, although I find that with polkas I invariably want to do more with them than the player does who I've learned them from, so I woodshed at home on those.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
As I sometimes tell people turning to me for some direction, or as I remind myself often enough ~ give in to it, let go, drop the tensions, let it pour over you and into you, become one with the music (or dance), musician(s), the tune and their take on it. Relax and get soaked. We have already said and realize that there has to be some proficiency already acquired before you can do this with the greatest positive effect and results ~ BUT ~ I think in great part that this 'deep listening' is what allows you to move forward and acquire that proficiency, whatever the apprenticeship...
I have never learned a thing without first giving myself up to it, like learning steps in a dance, letting the person teaching me those steps have my complete and undivided attention and giving my body up to miming what they do, as if it wasn't my body but theres. That may seem odd, but I've taught enough to know that it is part of the key to learning anything, step by step or on the fly. You have to just let go and not get in the way...
Despite claims to the contrary, no art or artist or craft or craftperson is born complete and unflawed. You get there through a process of screw-ups. You take risks. You make mistakes and hopefully have the sense to learn from those. Ideally you do all this with some consideration for others and an awareness of your 'place' and responsibilities in the process...with courtesy.
You can acquire that too, through 'tradition', courtesy. All those characters, those gentle-folk, who inspired and taught me ~ every one of them (not counting the few alien exceptions) ~ were welcoming, kind, courteous, patient ~ even the irascible in thier own way. I couldn't help but return the same, with respect....
I admit the sing, in my mind, of losing touch with those connections sometimes, like when I'm really tired ~ or ~ the twit before me persists in acts of discourtesy and disrespect for others present, for the 'tradition'. Part of what breaks me there is the realization, or remembering, that sadly there are some folks in this world who seem incapable of returning some consideration and respect in kind, the sort that are so self-obsessed that they'll never get it, because there's no room inside their obsession for the tradition or for others. They can't seem to be able to let go and allow for other things, like muisicality, humour, awareness, of others and self... Maybe it is some species of psychosis?
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
C, I have to agree. As this music and sessions were popularized, more people came to them with little to no understanding--or interest in understanding--what came before. The fact that some people here can argue against learning tunes on the fly, and the ubiquitousness of notation and slow-down software, suggests that this once-interpersonal, aural tradition is becoming something else. So newcomers mistake "aural" for permission to randomly noodle and harmonize. Some have been at it long enough that others think this is how it's supposed to be.
But on the bright side, there are also places where a high level of community and musicianship still exist, and these are widespread, not confined to one small island.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will writes: "Jack describes learning a "smoothed out" setting at the session only to find it's source recording is much more nuanced, and so he learns the setting from the recording."
~~~
There's more to this than what you suggest. In some cases the tunes seemed reinvented in a way where style was also a casualty. The problem is that when you're out in the outback of ITM, so to speak, it's more difficult to surround yourself with high-caliber influences. Often the people around you are just as clueless, and you have to find a way to get closer to the source. I've done this by listening to recorded source material and visiting Ireland. I also seek out good local players, but that's not always possible either for every tune you seek to learn. Recordings might be artificial to a certain extent, but sometimes it's all we have to go by.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will writes: "The fact that some people here can argue against learning tunes on the fly,"
~~~
Just to clarify: I'm not saying it can't be done, but rather questioning whether it should be considered appropriate for sessions or encouraged. The only people that should be doing it would be people who are successful enough that no one notices. The problem is that the person doing it isn’t necessarily the best judge for their abilities, and the other musicians are too polite to say anything or bother with it. I just hope a thread like this gives the practitioners food for thought.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
"but then you might be blending apples and oranges and coming out with a fruit salad version of the tune, rather than a more cohesive whole compote"
True, if you don't really understand the way this kind of music works. You have to listen to a lot of it to know what's appropriate, and then also have an internal sense of what sounds good.
I appreciate what you say about learning from other players, and when you do have a good player to learn from, there's nothing better, especially if you have the opportunity to talk with them and have them tell you about how they make the choices they do. But I think recordings can be quite instructive as well, especially listening to particular players to learn their approaches, and take kind of a "how would Bobby Casey (for ex.) do it?" perspective when looking for ideas.
Of course, it might work differently when you've been playing this music for 30 years...
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Kennedy, it helps to listen to the older material, too. Today's recordings are so commericalized and cleansed, or popped up, that they give a very skewed sense of this music (or at least where it seems to be heading).
The problem with commercial recordings at all is that they're made with an end in mind that's different from playing for dancers or playing in the kitchen with your mates. So it depends on how you want your music to sound. Influences are important.
Jack, I got that full sense of smoothed out that your intended, and I wholeheartedly agree. Less experienced players often miss the stylistic and personal touches when they learn a tune. You end up with locally homogenized curds--the cream is elsewhere.
And I didn't mean to insinuate that you only listen to cds. Going to Ireland is grand, but there are plenty of excellent players here in the States who carry on and pass on the tradition. In fact, among many players, the New York or Chicago idioms and heritage of this music go back more than 100 years and are deeply rooted in the communities (and from there back to the immigrants' homes), just as they are in Ireland. They are valid and valued branches of this tradition.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Will, I don't think I suggested there aren't any worthy musicians or influences here in the states; what I said was it's more difficult to surround yourself with high-caliber influences when you're in the outback of ITM. I moved to SF from the Central Valley because there are some very good musicians rooted in the tradition here as well as top-shelf touring artists passing through. There were many great sessions with brilliant players in attendance, but even with all of that, often the sessions were populated with the not so blind leading the blind, so to speak. For that reason I sometimes had to look beyond the local session in my quest for tune sources and influences.
Regarding going to Ireland as opposed to New York and/or Chicago: I get great pleasure from my visits to Ireland, and I've seen and sometimes participated in some of the best sessions I've ever experienced. I'm sure I might meet equally great musicians in Chicago and New York, (and I have when they come to SF,) but going to Ireland has something to it that goes far beyond visiting major American cities. I suppose I might have the chance to visit NY and Chicago someday, and that will be great, but visiting Ireland is something I will always prefer.
# Posted on April 27th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Erm, Jack, I didn't say you suggested anything of the sort. Ease up on the paranoia, eh? You're repeatedly reading into my posts negativity that isn't there.
I was just mentioning that it's possible to find great mentors and session mates Stateside.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
I didn't accuse you of saying I suggesting it, I just said I didn't suggest it. But I will take you to task on your allegations of paranoia if you aren't careful.
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Are we verbally noodling now?
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
Jack and Will went up the hill.......
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by silver bow
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
LOL
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Traditional Noodling 101
tee he, I enjoyed that too:
"I don't think I suggested ..."
"I didn't say you suggested ..."
"I didn't accuse you of saying I suggesting it, I just said I didn't suggest it ..."
Brilliant
# Posted on April 29th 2008 by llig leahcim