I am instructed as a classical violinist student, but my real passion is irish fiddle. Are there any books/CDs/anything that teach irish fiddle ornementation? It's really frustrating feeling like I'm only playing the notes, and not really playing the tune.
So far I can do slides and cuts, but it ends there. Any help is appreciated.
Kevin Burke's two DVD set "Learn to Play the Irish Fiddle" does a great job of breaking the ornaments down and showing how they're done. They're great videos.
Listen to James Kelly's "Melodic Journeys". He plays quite slowly and articulates very clearly, allowing you to really feel inside the ornamentation. His playing is also gorgeous - you can learn a lot from it and keep coming back for more!
I think the Mel Bay book is pretty good- it includes a good selection and variety of tunes and includes recordings. The bowings make sense, although one needs to remember that there are always plenty of alternative ways of bowing tunes.
tmay17, please, please, please find a good fiddler who plays this music and ask them to help you with bowed triplets and rolls. Learning from books and tutorial cds or dvds is just too sterile a way to learn the essential stuff that makes this Irsh trad and not something else.
It would help to know where in the world you live.
As a "second resort," consider taking lessons online with a web cam from James Kelly directly--a better investment than any book or dvd.
The sooner you get away from the printed page, the sooner you'll start to leave those classical habits behind and play genuine Irish trad fiddle.
I totally agree with Will CPT. Get a teacher... its the best way to learn because a DVD cant see where your going wrong.
My teacher can hear what I've done wrong and then break it down into small sections explaining everything to my so I can get it right. There is no comparison to that kind of input.
I was thinking about the music/language analogy the other day. And how if you are a "classical violinist" how difficult it would be to learn another language - Irish diddley music say.
I'm an english speaker. I have a tiny smattering of french and spanish, but I would class myself as a monoglot. When I read english there are conventions which I have memorised as a small child and that are now automatic. For example, an "s" next to a "h" makes a specific sound. You can memorise the sounds of letters, but you need much much more when it comes to reading a word like "change". It's not "k-hang-ee". I looked at some Gaelic the other day. Useless. Same letters, a few unfamiliar strokes, but same letters.
So the analogy is: does a child lean to speak by reading a book? Have you ever met anyone who learned to read before they could talk?
(On a similar theme, there was a bloke in the pub the other day with the loudest mandolin I've ever heard. After the first set he was politely told that we had a convention we liked to stick to that if you didn't know the tune, you didn't play. After the second set, he was politely asked to stop playing. He reminded me of a small child who hasn't leaned to speak yet, but babbles away contentedly with seemingly random syllables. From the child's perspective, babbling away with seemingly random syllables is what taking is. They copy to the best of their ability.)
Michael raises some good points. I am usually a defender of sheet music on this site, but as an aid to the ear and teacher, not as a replacement. There are some things that you can't figure out just from a book, and you don't really get from a CD and book set, or even a video. If at all possible, get a teacher as early as possible in the process. The teacher can watch and listen to you, and provide instant feedback to correct problems, guide your development through assignments. You will not regret it.....
Ditto! ~ I'm in the 'get a teacher' camp, always, having it 'handed down', that's the tradition, through the ears, but be selective. A bad teacher can do as much or more damage to your music and your spirit than print... Sadly, having come across some, I'd recommend print, recordings and DVDs over them any day... Give them a trial, one lesson will tell you if it's right for your character and needs.
james morrison book[contact Iris nevins]on this forum.these are James Morrisons transcriptions to his pupils[with bowing etc]
Matt Cranitch[ how to learn irish fiddle],Paul Mcnevin[IrishFiddlepublished by Waltons],Geoff Bowen,[how to play folk fiddle],are all very good with detailed instructions on ornamentation and bowing.
the original poster asked for good books and cds to learn from,those of you who dont like books, surely dont object to someone listening to the music from cds,listening to the music and slowing it downto hear bowing patterns is very important,this is precisely what David Lyth did with Munster fiddle published by Comhaltas.
most of the books I have mentioned come with audio cds or recordings,and will in my opinion be as good as a good teacher ,and better than a bad one
Cranitch, Matt. The Irish Fiddle Book: The Art of Traditional Fiddle-Playing. New York: Music Sales, 1993.
Lyth, David. Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing. Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, 1981
llig, coming back to your comment on session etiquette/ noodling--whatever you want to call it, what your saying is if you cannot play the tune-even some parts of it , don't play?So what do you do?--practice it at home until it's perfect and up to session speed, and sit out most of the session just listening? For beginners or those who just don't know the tune perfectly this could be disheartening. I suppose that's the cold reality of the situation -otherwise you're only going to ruin it for the rest of the players.
not really ... the way I learn tunes is play the bits I do know and listen intently to, then mime the bits I don't. You know if you'ver mimed it right or not, so the next time through, you can play it. The gaps fill themselves remarkably quickly if you can refrain from guessing. Three times through is often enough, though it depends on the tune.
But there's much more to learning and knowing a tune than playing the right notes in the right order. And to refrain from playing at all until you know the right notes in the right order is a reasonable convention to stick to. You must of course keep quiet though. You must be able to hear the player you are learning from louder than yourself until you can get to a stage where you can give something back to them.
(But this is all irrelevant to the bloke I mentioned above. He thought he was playing the right notes)
Noodling - playing whatever no matter what else is being played
Noodling in ITM - playing only those notes you know, as unobtrusively as possible
On the flipside of the whole learning ornamentation, and keeping with the analogy, there's no substitute for immersion when learning a language. Loads of listening and processing so you can replicate, and in that process develop one's own style. It's what the toddlers do with their babble, right?
Eventually, and a timely thread too,"When it Comes Naturally":
I take noodling to mean either:
a) playing whatever no matter what else is being played; or
b) attempting to learn a tune by randomly hitting notes in the hope that you'll eventually hit the right ones.
Both sound the same.
The analogy with the toddler and noodling is not quite right. The toddler is not trying to formulate order out of something it doesn't comprehend. It merely thinks it does comprehend. This is the bloke I mentioned above.
The noodler is more often than not someone who can already play, but chooses to noodle ... either by trying to formulate order from chaos or merely giving up and running with the chaos.
Yes dickens, the Cranitch book was to be a recommendation I'd have made but was rushed off before I could add it. I'm just back now. However, just as a 'SUPPLEMENT'! Bad habits are hell to undo. I know, I have often been in the position of trying to unwind practiced tensions, bad habits and shight music. It is always best to find a musician you can trust and get some guidance there, even if it is just to move from say learning from a decent tutor like the Cranitch book and getting guidance from a living source.
Consider also things like festivals and the likes of the many 'fiddle camps' that every continent and this island have going for them. They bring together some of the best, for all levels of players, and you can learn a hell of a lot from the hired staff as well as from your fellow campers. Regulars at such functions include the likes of Kevin Burke and James Kelly.
Another book/CD tutor not mentioned but also well thought out is Kathleen Nesbitt's "Irish Fiddle Tutorial".
Along with the visuals mentioned previously, Kevin's DVDs, there's also Dale Russ's "Basic Irish Fiddle", a Lark in the Morning DVD, and there's Julie Lieberman's "Techniques for the Contemporary String Player", which comes in two parts, seperate or together ~ 1.) The Bow Hand & 2.) The Left Hand...
But, NOTHING beats one-to-one, wherever you chase it up, locally or at a festival or camp...and there's the possibility of making new friends too. Some folks I know and respect also have regular group classes... They are, aside from the learning and music, a kick, highly recommended. Books, CDs and DVDs (videos), 'ideally', should only be supplemental...
"The Irish Fiddle" ~ Paul McNevin
"Charlie Lennon's Irish Fiddle Technique"
Hey, this is good. I have a priest I'm trying to tickle back into picking up his neglected fiddle. I'll have to direct him this way. He hasn't much time and so mostly needs to be self-directed, but first I've got to get him to give up a little of his juggling obsession for music... They are both about timing...
Hey Llig, you'll love and/or hate this, I have recently been teaching a few folks how to noodle 'traditionally' ~ while avoiding irritating the hell out of others... I'd love to see that raised again as a topic for repeated derision ~ "Traditional Noodling 101"...
I wouldn't be able to go to a fiddle teacher, but I would be able to work on it with a violin teacher. I am a highland and irish dancer, so for about 6 hours a week, I'm listening to celtic music.
That is potentially the worst thing you could do, approach a classically trained musician to learn Irish ornamentation. That isn't saying that both can't exist together, it is just that usually they don't and the notions that the majority of the classically trained have about Irish music are daft...
What is your general geographic location? We might be able to direct you, meaning 'we' collectively, to options you aren't aware of...
I actually have a strong dislike for the 'ormament-centric' drive that many become obsessed with. This music is about a lot more than just the twiddles, and often the focus on those twiddles is to the neglect of things that are far more important...things sometimes too easily taken for granted and overlooked, as is common with the twiddling and speed obsessed...
I agree, I have a strong dislike for the 'ormament-centric' drive also. The so called ornaments are not separate things you add or take away. They are the articulations of the tunes. You can overarticulate, a lot do.
Llig I'd say the learning process is the same for the toddler and musician, only it's a lot slower for baby, or never as in the case of your mando torturing buddy there.
BOSTON!!! ~ DAMN!!! That part of the world is crawling with talent. You also have the French and Cape Breton option, and there's all the talent there that fill dance halls with music for dancers. How lucky are you!!! I'm goosebumped, that place is a lovely Mecca of musical happenings, a favourite city I haven't had the pleasure of in too long.
This is a good start. I'll see what I can drum up for you in the way of recommendations, but I'd be surprised if others don't come forward first. Also ~ festivals, camps, etc., all over New England. The so-called 'New England Tradition' is full of Irish influence and tunes and some damned fine fiddlers too...
Is the French Club still going strong? I'll contact some friends and see what we can come up with for you. Is Donna Hébert within reach? She's a fine fiddle and a damned good teacher too...
I'm trying to get my head around the idea that someone lives in Boston and doesn't have access to Irish fiddlers.
Also, you need to be listening to Irish fiddling more than 6 hours a week. Go out to sessions, sit and listen. The rest of the time listen to recorded stuff. You have to listen, listen, listen, and then listen some more, esp the old stuff.
And if you're fairly new to the music, don't be so worried about ornaments yet. Concentrate on the feel of the music, the swing, the lilt. That's the foundation.
As a beginner I went to the session even before I could play my instrument. I spent a lot of time just sitting there with it. I still do actually but I'm getting there.
I see the fiddlers teaching each other stuff all the time at our session. You already know how to play the fiddle, so maybe you could learn a few tunes straight without ornaments (is that possible on the fiddle? I don't know.) Then go early to the session and ask for some advice. Probably after you know a few people well enough. Then sit in the circle with the others and watch and listen.
I don't know what all sessions are like, but at mine it's ok if you sit in but don't play.
Yes! ~ I'll do some asking over the weekend and see what I can find for you, or at least to direct you to ~ DAMN! ~ I just remembered some friends to ask. I hope they are home. YES! ~ I count you as lucky.
Also, Killone & sbhikes put things nicely... We all wish you the best in the process of transition and understanding... The fact that it addresses your heart already is a good start.
Check the 'Sessions' section of the site here. Going to sessions to find a sound that inspires, then asking that source for some guidance, to see if you want to take it further ~ like regular lessons...is a great step forward...
The Green Briar Irish Pub
304 Washington Street
Brighton, Massachusetts 02135
617-789-4100
~ Irish sessions every Monday night. A 'learner' or slow session starts at 7pm and goes until 9pm. Starting about 9pm or so, and extending until closing time is the regular session.
I don't know what is currently the case, you could try emailing Michael Duffy ~ cosgrach ~ at ~ tsoft.com
"Seamus's involvement in Irish traditional music is not limited to performance. He is a teacher (Brendan Bulger, the first Bostonian to win an All-Ireland fiddle title, is one of his former pupils), summer school and festival organizer (Boston College's Gaelic Roots from 1993 to 2003), record producer (e.g., the double-CD Boston College Irish Studies Program Celebrates Gaelic Roots in 1997), and author (Forget Me Not, a book of tunes packaged with two CDs, all of which he produced in 2002 with Laurel Martin, another former fiddle student of his who's now a Boston College teaching colleague).
In April 2004 Seamus Connolly was named the Sullivan Artist in Residence in Irish Music at Boston College, an endowed position that recognizes his overall contributions to the college since 1990.
Amid these many accomplishments, Seamus prefers to single out his role as Gaelic Roots founder and director in bringing to Boston College such honored guests as Peadar O'Loughlin, Proinsias 0 Maonaigh, Josephine Keegan, Bobby Casey, Tommy McCarthy, and Johnny O'Leary, the last three of whom have since passed away. This profound deference and selfless service typifies the man and his love and dedication to his native music."
There are loads of Irish music sessions in Boston. Find one and go up to a good fiddler (listen a while to figure out who the good ones are) and ask them if they teach or they know someone who does. Musicians know each other, you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
I totally agree with not learning Irish fiddling from a classical teacher. They'll work from sheet music and get the feel of it all wrong. You're lucky, you already know the instrument, now it's time to find some people fluent in the style.
"She has taught traditional Irish fiddling as a lecturer at Boston College since 1994, directs the traditional music ensemble “Fiddleheads” at Wellesley College, teaches privately and has led numerous workshops throughout the United States and abroad."
These people will have other suggestions and recommendations:
NEFFA ~ New England Folk Festival Association http://www.neffa.org/
~ & they regularly sponsor activities to further the cause of music & dance... http://www.neffa.org/grid/index.html
Tony & Beth Parkes
P.O. Box 641
Bedford, Massachusetts 01730
Phone: 978-670-9333
Email: ERASETHIS books AT hands4 DOT com
They are also likely to be aware of any group fiddle classes too. So, that should get you well started. I know Donna will have contacts too, so it wouldn't hurt dropping her an email. Who knows, she may be coming through your area soon. It wouldn't be unusual...
Best of luck with your progress and understanding...
Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I am instructed as a classical violinist student, but my real passion is irish fiddle. Are there any books/CDs/anything that teach irish fiddle ornementation? It's really frustrating feeling like I'm only playing the notes, and not really playing the tune.
So far I can do slides and cuts, but it ends there. Any help is appreciated.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by tmayl7
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Kevin Burke's two DVD set "Learn to Play the Irish Fiddle" does a great job of breaking the ornaments down and showing how they're done. They're great videos.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Listen to James Kelly's "Melodic Journeys". He plays quite slowly and articulates very clearly, allowing you to really feel inside the ornamentation. His playing is also gorgeous - you can learn a lot from it and keep coming back for more!
--DtM
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Has anyone used Mel Bay's complete Irish Fiddle Book?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by tmayl7
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I think the Mel Bay book is pretty good- it includes a good selection and variety of tunes and includes recordings. The bowings make sense, although one needs to remember that there are always plenty of alternative ways of bowing tunes.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Murph
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
tmay17, please, please, please find a good fiddler who plays this music and ask them to help you with bowed triplets and rolls. Learning from books and tutorial cds or dvds is just too sterile a way to learn the essential stuff that makes this Irsh trad and not something else.
It would help to know where in the world you live.
As a "second resort," consider taking lessons online with a web cam from James Kelly directly--a better investment than any book or dvd.
The sooner you get away from the printed page, the sooner you'll start to leave those classical habits behind and play genuine Irish trad fiddle.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Ara give up that ould classical malarky.
I totally agree with Will CPT. Get a teacher... its the best way to learn because a DVD cant see where your going wrong.
My teacher can hear what I've done wrong and then break it down into small sections explaining everything to my so I can get it right. There is no comparison to that kind of input.
Best of luck
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by session savage
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I was thinking about the music/language analogy the other day. And how if you are a "classical violinist" how difficult it would be to learn another language - Irish diddley music say.
I'm an english speaker. I have a tiny smattering of french and spanish, but I would class myself as a monoglot. When I read english there are conventions which I have memorised as a small child and that are now automatic. For example, an "s" next to a "h" makes a specific sound. You can memorise the sounds of letters, but you need much much more when it comes to reading a word like "change". It's not "k-hang-ee". I looked at some Gaelic the other day. Useless. Same letters, a few unfamiliar strokes, but same letters.
So the analogy is: does a child lean to speak by reading a book? Have you ever met anyone who learned to read before they could talk?
(On a similar theme, there was a bloke in the pub the other day with the loudest mandolin I've ever heard. After the first set he was politely told that we had a convention we liked to stick to that if you didn't know the tune, you didn't play. After the second set, he was politely asked to stop playing. He reminded me of a small child who hasn't leaned to speak yet, but babbles away contentedly with seemingly random syllables. From the child's perspective, babbling away with seemingly random syllables is what taking is. They copy to the best of their ability.)
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Michael raises some good points. I am usually a defender of sheet music on this site, but as an aid to the ear and teacher, not as a replacement. There are some things that you can't figure out just from a book, and you don't really get from a CD and book set, or even a video. If at all possible, get a teacher as early as possible in the process. The teacher can watch and listen to you, and provide instant feedback to correct problems, guide your development through assignments. You will not regret it.....
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
a child's "babbling away with seemingly random syllables" ~ brilliant analogy Llig...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Ditto! ~ I'm in the 'get a teacher' camp, always, having it 'handed down', that's the tradition, through the ears, but be selective. A bad teacher can do as much or more damage to your music and your spirit than print... Sadly, having come across some, I'd recommend print, recordings and DVDs over them any day... Give them a trial, one lesson will tell you if it's right for your character and needs.
Best of luck...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
james morrison book[contact Iris nevins]on this forum.these are James Morrisons transcriptions to his pupils[with bowing etc]
Matt Cranitch[ how to learn irish fiddle],Paul Mcnevin[IrishFiddlepublished by Waltons],Geoff Bowen,[how to play folk fiddle],are all very good with detailed instructions on ornamentation and bowing.
the original poster asked for good books and cds to learn from,those of you who dont like books, surely dont object to someone listening to the music from cds,listening to the music and slowing it downto hear bowing patterns is very important,this is precisely what David Lyth did with Munster fiddle published by Comhaltas.
most of the books I have mentioned come with audio cds or recordings,and will in my opinion be as good as a good teacher ,and better than a bad one
Cranitch, Matt. The Irish Fiddle Book: The Art of Traditional Fiddle-Playing. New York: Music Sales, 1993.
Lyth, David. Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing. Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann, 1981
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
llig, coming back to your comment on session etiquette/ noodling--whatever you want to call it, what your saying is if you cannot play the tune-even some parts of it , don't play?So what do you do?--practice it at home until it's perfect and up to session speed, and sit out most of the session just listening? For beginners or those who just don't know the tune perfectly this could be disheartening. I suppose that's the cold reality of the situation -otherwise you're only going to ruin it for the rest of the players.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by banjoian
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
not really ... the way I learn tunes is play the bits I do know and listen intently to, then mime the bits I don't. You know if you'ver mimed it right or not, so the next time through, you can play it. The gaps fill themselves remarkably quickly if you can refrain from guessing. Three times through is often enough, though it depends on the tune.
But there's much more to learning and knowing a tune than playing the right notes in the right order. And to refrain from playing at all until you know the right notes in the right order is a reasonable convention to stick to. You must of course keep quiet though. You must be able to hear the player you are learning from louder than yourself until you can get to a stage where you can give something back to them.
(But this is all irrelevant to the bloke I mentioned above. He thought he was playing the right notes)
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Noodling - playing whatever no matter what else is being played
Noodling in ITM - playing only those notes you know, as unobtrusively as possible
On the flipside of the whole learning ornamentation, and keeping with the analogy, there's no substitute for immersion when learning a language. Loads of listening and processing so you can replicate, and in that process develop one's own style. It's what the toddlers do with their babble, right?
Eventually, and a timely thread too,"When it Comes Naturally":
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17546
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I take noodling to mean either:
a) playing whatever no matter what else is being played; or
b) attempting to learn a tune by randomly hitting notes in the hope that you'll eventually hit the right ones.
Both sound the same.
The analogy with the toddler and noodling is not quite right. The toddler is not trying to formulate order out of something it doesn't comprehend. It merely thinks it does comprehend. This is the bloke I mentioned above.
The noodler is more often than not someone who can already play, but chooses to noodle ... either by trying to formulate order from chaos or merely giving up and running with the chaos.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Yes dickens, the Cranitch book was to be a recommendation I'd have made but was rushed off before I could add it. I'm just back now. However, just as a 'SUPPLEMENT'! Bad habits are hell to undo. I know, I have often been in the position of trying to unwind practiced tensions, bad habits and shight music. It is always best to find a musician you can trust and get some guidance there, even if it is just to move from say learning from a decent tutor like the Cranitch book and getting guidance from a living source.
Consider also things like festivals and the likes of the many 'fiddle camps' that every continent and this island have going for them. They bring together some of the best, for all levels of players, and you can learn a hell of a lot from the hired staff as well as from your fellow campers. Regulars at such functions include the likes of Kevin Burke and James Kelly.
Another book/CD tutor not mentioned but also well thought out is Kathleen Nesbitt's "Irish Fiddle Tutorial".
Along with the visuals mentioned previously, Kevin's DVDs, there's also Dale Russ's "Basic Irish Fiddle", a Lark in the Morning DVD, and there's Julie Lieberman's "Techniques for the Contemporary String Player", which comes in two parts, seperate or together ~ 1.) The Bow Hand & 2.) The Left Hand...
But, NOTHING beats one-to-one, wherever you chase it up, locally or at a festival or camp...and there's the possibility of making new friends too. Some folks I know and respect also have regular group classes... They are, aside from the learning and music, a kick, highly recommended. Books, CDs and DVDs (videos), 'ideally', should only be supplemental...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Oh yes, almost forgot, two other visuals ~
"The Irish Fiddle" ~ Paul McNevin
"Charlie Lennon's Irish Fiddle Technique"
Hey, this is good. I have a priest I'm trying to tickle back into picking up his neglected fiddle. I'll have to direct him this way. He hasn't much time and so mostly needs to be self-directed, but first I've got to get him to give up a little of his juggling obsession for music... They are both about timing...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
You "have a priest"? Ha ha, I like that.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I need one,at the least...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Hey Llig, you'll love and/or hate this, I have recently been teaching a few folks how to noodle 'traditionally' ~ while avoiding irritating the hell out of others... I'd love to see that raised again as a topic for repeated derision ~ "Traditional Noodling 101"...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I wouldn't be able to go to a fiddle teacher, but I would be able to work on it with a violin teacher. I am a highland and irish dancer, so for about 6 hours a week, I'm listening to celtic music.
With no other option, is this a start?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by tmayl7
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
on the bodhran?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
That is potentially the worst thing you could do, approach a classically trained musician to learn Irish ornamentation. That isn't saying that both can't exist together, it is just that usually they don't and the notions that the majority of the classically trained have about Irish music are daft...
What is your general geographic location? We might be able to direct you, meaning 'we' collectively, to options you aren't aware of...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
A 'violinist' ~ OK for some basics and a relaxed and healthy start, but not for ornamentation as it exists in this music...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
I actually have a strong dislike for the 'ormament-centric' drive that many become obsessed with. This music is about a lot more than just the twiddles, and often the focus on those twiddles is to the neglect of things that are far more important...things sometimes too easily taken for granted and overlooked, as is common with the twiddling and speed obsessed...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I'm in Boston.
The only option I've found is http://www.ccebostonmusicschool.org/index.html and lessons aren't available until the fall.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by tmayl7
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I agree, I have a strong dislike for the 'ormament-centric' drive also. The so called ornaments are not separate things you add or take away. They are the articulations of the tunes. You can overarticulate, a lot do.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Llig I'd say the learning process is the same for the toddler and musician, only it's a lot slower for baby, or never as in the case of your mando torturing buddy there.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
BOSTON!!! ~ DAMN!!! That part of the world is crawling with talent. You also have the French and Cape Breton option, and there's all the talent there that fill dance halls with music for dancers. How lucky are you!!! I'm goosebumped, that place is a lovely Mecca of musical happenings, a favourite city I haven't had the pleasure of in too long.
This is a good start. I'll see what I can drum up for you in the way of recommendations, but I'd be surprised if others don't come forward first. Also ~ festivals, camps, etc., all over New England. The so-called 'New England Tradition' is full of Irish influence and tunes and some damned fine fiddlers too...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Is the French Club still going strong? I'll contact some friends and see what we can come up with for you. Is Donna Hébert within reach? She's a fine fiddle and a damned good teacher too...
http://www.dhebert.com/
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
I'm trying to get my head around the idea that someone lives in Boston and doesn't have access to Irish fiddlers.
Also, you need to be listening to Irish fiddling more than 6 hours a week. Go out to sessions, sit and listen. The rest of the time listen to recorded stuff. You have to listen, listen, listen, and then listen some more, esp the old stuff.
And if you're fairly new to the music, don't be so worried about ornaments yet. Concentrate on the feel of the music, the swing, the lilt. That's the foundation.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Killone
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
As a beginner I went to the session even before I could play my instrument. I spent a lot of time just sitting there with it. I still do actually but I'm getting there.
I see the fiddlers teaching each other stuff all the time at our session. You already know how to play the fiddle, so maybe you could learn a few tunes straight without ornaments (is that possible on the fiddle? I don't know.) Then go early to the session and ask for some advice. Probably after you know a few people well enough. Then sit in the circle with the others and watch and listen.
I don't know what all sessions are like, but at mine it's ok if you sit in but don't play.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
^she's about 2 hours away, anyone closer?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by tmayl7
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Yes! ~ I'll do some asking over the weekend and see what I can find for you, or at least to direct you to ~ DAMN! ~ I just remembered some friends to ask. I hope they are home. YES! ~ I count you as lucky.
Also, Killone & sbhikes put things nicely... We all wish you the best in the process of transition and understanding... The fact that it addresses your heart already is a good start.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Whatever happened to the Boston Celtic Festival thing-a-ma-jig? That had workshops...
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Check the 'Sessions' section of the site here. Going to sessions to find a sound that inspires, then asking that source for some guidance, to see if you want to take it further ~ like regular lessons...is a great step forward...
http://www.thesession.org/sessions/
That's weird, only two sessions show here and one is marked through as 'no more' ~
The Crossroads Pub ~ Mondays
http://www.thesession.org/sessions/display/1838]
Come on you Bostonians, add your sessions here for the health of the music...
I thought I'd remembered this one ~
"Boston's Original Slow Session"
http://www.slowplayers.org/BOSS/index.html
The Green Briar Irish Pub
304 Washington Street
Brighton, Massachusetts 02135
617-789-4100
~ Irish sessions every Monday night. A 'learner' or slow session starts at 7pm and goes until 9pm. Starting about 9pm or so, and extending until closing time is the regular session.
I don't know what is currently the case, you could try emailing Michael Duffy ~ cosgrach ~ at ~ tsoft.com
Fiddler Séamus Connolly ~ ?!?
http://www.johnmcgann.com/irish.html
"The Boston College Irish Fiddle Festival"
"Seamus's involvement in Irish traditional music is not limited to performance. He is a teacher (Brendan Bulger, the first Bostonian to win an All-Ireland fiddle title, is one of his former pupils), summer school and festival organizer (Boston College's Gaelic Roots from 1993 to 2003), record producer (e.g., the double-CD Boston College Irish Studies Program Celebrates Gaelic Roots in 1997), and author (Forget Me Not, a book of tunes packaged with two CDs, all of which he produced in 2002 with Laurel Martin, another former fiddle student of his who's now a Boston College teaching colleague).
In April 2004 Seamus Connolly was named the Sullivan Artist in Residence in Irish Music at Boston College, an endowed position that recognizes his overall contributions to the college since 1990.
Amid these many accomplishments, Seamus prefers to single out his role as Gaelic Roots founder and director in bringing to Boston College such honored guests as Peadar O'Loughlin, Proinsias 0 Maonaigh, Josephine Keegan, Bobby Casey, Tommy McCarthy, and Johnny O'Leary, the last three of whom have since passed away. This profound deference and selfless service typifies the man and his love and dedication to his native music."
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
There are loads of Irish music sessions in Boston. Find one and go up to a good fiddler (listen a while to figure out who the good ones are) and ask them if they teach or they know someone who does. Musicians know each other, you shouldn't have too much of a problem.
I totally agree with not learning Irish fiddling from a classical teacher. They'll work from sheet music and get the feel of it all wrong. You're lucky, you already know the instrument, now it's time to find some people fluent in the style.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Celtic events within 100 miles of Boston ~ parts 1 & 2
http://music-for-robin.org/100miles.htm
http://music-for-robin.org/100miles2.htm
Boston College
http://www.bc.edu/
http://www.bc.edu/centers/irish/institute/
http://www.bc.edu/centers/irish/studies/
Center for Irish Programs
Irish Studies
300 Hammond Street
Chestnut Hill, MA 02467
Phone: 617-552-3938
Fax: 617-552-3714
Email: irish@bc.edu
Laurel Martin
http://www.laurelmartin.com/
http://www.laurelmartin.com/teaching.htm
"She has taught traditional Irish fiddling as a lecturer at Boston College since 1994, directs the traditional music ensemble “Fiddleheads” at Wellesley College, teaches privately and has led numerous workshops throughout the United States and abroad."
These people will have other suggestions and recommendations:
NEFFA ~ New England Folk Festival Association
http://www.neffa.org/
~ & they regularly sponsor activities to further the cause of music & dance...
http://www.neffa.org/grid/index.html
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Good books/CDs to learn ornementation
Here are some others that will know the local talent in and around Massachusetts ~
Randy Miller ~ fiddler, etc...
http://www.randymillerprints.com/Index/Index.html
Randy Miller,
17 North Rd.
Alstead, New Hampshire 03602
phone: 603-835-7889
jrmiller@sover.net
Tony Parkes ~ dance caller
http://www.hands4.com/
http://www.hands4.com/tony.html
Tony & Beth Parkes
P.O. Box 641
Bedford, Massachusetts 01730
Phone: 978-670-9333
Email: ERASETHIS books AT hands4 DOT com
They are also likely to be aware of any group fiddle classes too. So, that should get you well started. I know Donna will have contacts too, so it wouldn't hurt dropping her an email. Who knows, she may be coming through your area soon. It wouldn't be unusual...
Best of luck with your progress and understanding...
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by ceolachan