Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I can see how it might detract from the spirit of spontaneously playing the music Llig but I was also weighing that up against having the presence of an "invisible perfect pulse " coming from the recorded music after the click track is removed. My own experience through mucking about with this device is that
the rhythm of the music is at least 50 per cent more pronounced to my ears with a controlled tempo, but I have an
appalling sense of tempo anyway. (eg. speeding up etc) .
I was interested if anyone else found found it a help or a hindrance, and does anyone know if its common for Trad recording artists to use them. Or is it too much of an obstruction to ornamentation etc.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
if you have an appalling sense of tempo, using a click track will only only entrech your disability further.
My 11 month old boy has an appalling sense of balance. He keeps falling over when he tries to walk. Do you think I should just encourage him to carry on crawling instead?
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
"if you have an appalling sense of tempo, using a click track will only only entrech your disability further."
On the contrary, using a click-track (or a metronome) will force you to improve your sense of rhythm. But then again, one would hope that this kind of improvement would be done outside the context of making a recording. If you're recording, your rhythm should really already be good enough that you don't need it.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
i do some amateur recording,
dont like click tracks for many reasons.
i use a click track for non-itm, eg rock, death metal,lee-lah and yeeha.
in this age of DAWs it helps with the editing (cheating) process, and is vital it you're mixing live sound with midi controlled sounds/drum machines etc
with itm, its common for the tempo to change in a set, its also common for the tempo to ramp slowly upwards. so a basic click track wouldn't work, unless you wanted to just using one tempo throughout.
there are ways to create fancy click tracks and tempos, but
even then i dont like it. i feel you get a rather sanitised result.
when recording itm, instead of a click track, i would lay down a basic guitar chord track, paying very close attention to desired tempo and tempo changes, but still keeping the feel of the track. thats the idea anyway. it doesnt sound great, but it helps to keep the tempo , and also helps you to get on the groove (or whatever you call it) when recording subsequent tracks
i then use this to build the track around, then ditch the guide track.
as i said, i dont like click tracks anyway, they are an awful pain in your lughole when you're trying to be creative, man.
also with lots of live instruments and mics, its easy to get the click track bleeding from your headphones into the mic.
so if i do need a guide, i would use a drum machine instead of a click track, you can get a bit of swing out if it, and the sound is less horrible.
did i say i hate click tracks?
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
Nope, playing with a a click-track (or a metronome) will not force you to improve your sense of rhythm. On the contrary, it will merely constrict your freedom.
What happens when people with not too good a sense of play along with a mechanical time keeping device? The bits of of tune where they normally speed up or slow down are seldom improved because the reason they are rushed or laboured in the first place is because they are phrases that the player is unable to play properly. the metronome doesn't help here. But what it does do though is, after a phrase has been rushed, the following phrase that is usually played fine is forced to be artificially drawn out, to get back on the beat. And after a phrase has been laboured, the following phrase that is usually played fine is forced to be artificially rushed, to get back on the beat. The whole thing is complete dog's dinner.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I agree with Georgi.
I have done a lot of recording,5 lps 4 cds,Ithink the ideal way to record,is forall the musicians to play live together.
recording engineers dont generally like this as they can get a better hi fi sound, recording people individually.
one thing aclick track teaches you is to listen,another thing it can do is prevent you from speeding up,between different parts of atune.
a click track/metronome is a tool,if its used properly it can be useful.but the player doesnot want to become a slave to a tool.
I would advocate using it periodically but not all the time.
Micheal Gill is right in that,the best way to practise a bar /phrase you cant play ,is to slow it down,metronomes are adjustable and can be slowed down as well.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I have never tried to record any Irish music but I have done some recordings of other types of music and I do not like using a click track based on my experiences recording music.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
Metronomes were never invented to play music along too. They are simply a device to set a tempo. You listen to the tempo, switch it off and then play.
The click track was invented so that your midi sequencer didn't go out of time with the music. This technology is now redundent because your computer can now match any midi track to your "wayward" tempo.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
"My 11 month old boy has an appalling sense of balance. He keeps falling over when he tries to walk. Do you think I should just encourage him to carry on crawling instead?"
Yes, of course, any good parent knows that. He will learn in his own time.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I once heard a Mike Oldfield track that inspired me to go out a buy ( secondhand) copy of the album it was on. But after about three hearings I put it away for good. I could hear each instrument trying tokeep in time with the click track, and it doesn't really work because you don't have the musicians each listening to each other and reacting to those impercitable changes in rhythm that make up real music.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
He can walk. He does walk. He loves walking. He falls over a lot. Do you think that when he stands up I should should gently lower him back down on to all fours?
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
[edit] Criticism of Metronome use
A metronome will never give the rhythm and pulse ("groove"), that actually underlies a piece music when performed in its correct style.
Even though sheet music contains notations of rhythm (e.g. with eighth notes, etc.), the "notes when performed by musicians" will never be played exactly as written. This is because the musicians are interpreting the music in its particular style, with musical phrases including light pauses, slow-downs, speed-ups, etc. In popular music, this is often termed "groove" and "swing".[1]
“ Another thing that becomes clear [...], is how much the listener's perception of rhythm differs from the reality of the metronome. While Feuermann's performances seemed to provide the clearest 'feel' of the beat -meaning that to a listener, the rhythm and tempo seemed the most clear and compelling- when trying to set a metronome, one found a slightly changing tempo throughout almost every measure -a constant rhythmic 'push and pull'- making metronome indications sometimes recordable only as a range between two or three adjacent markings or as an average. At the same time, other performers [...] whose performances did not yield to the ear as strong a sense of tempo or rhythm, fit more easily within a specific metronome marking. From this, it is clear that the feeling and perception of rhythm are conveyed much more by the performers choice of emphasis or 'pulse' than by strict adherence to any absolute metronomic rhythm.[2] „
As is well know among percussionists from the jazz and Latin styles, even highly "rhythmical" music such as Jazz, Salsa, Samba, etc. does not have a metronome's simplistic division of time. In addition to obvious speedups and slowdowns (e.g. during musical phrasing); the inner beats do not coincide with the metronome ticks. [1] (The actual rhythm does not only have just linear speedups and slowdowns, there is often certain inner tensions and resolution, in the way that certain notes are grouped naturally closer or further apart, or speed up, etc.):
“ Actual performance timings involve complex ratios that neither add nor multiply in any simple fashion.[3] ”
It is impossible to notate the details of musical rhythm on paper, or with single-parameter metronome-markings that reduce beat/meter to a single "beats per minute" value. The metronome can only be an indication of the average quickness of a piece of music. The only way that a rhythm of a particular style can be accurately noted (with all its stylistic characteristics), is by hearing it (e.g. recording) performed by someone who is familiar with its style.
Concerning sheet music: Sheet music notation is an approximation of rhythm - musicians that are familiar with the specific music's style will be able to naturally phrase the music appropriately:
“ [...] This suggests that listeners who are steeped in a particular musical culture will have a repertoire metrical “templates” which allow them to readily grasp such patterns, both as the music starts and as it changes as it goes on.[3] ”
The main criticism of the metronome usage is:
preventing the learning of the musical style, by the metronome's enforced "simplistic, even, fixed, mechanical beat schema", instead of the unrelated true stylistic rhythm with its inherent tensions and swing etc.
being a reductionistic view of actual rhythm
inhibiting creativity
causes limitations, rather than expressive variety
The criticisms also apply to musicians who play music in a metronomical fashion (always on beat), if they are not familior with the particular music's actual stylistic characteristics. The same goes for click-tracks used for synchronization when laying down different studio-tracks during recordings. Today electronic music incorporating traditional musical styles (and fusion electronic music) is often criticised in the same manner: beats are simply looped, without any attention to complex stylistic traditions that underlie the music that is "electonicized" - this is one of the challenges facing electronic music.
Concerning Western music's rubato and rhythmic flexibility:
“ The uneven beats in African and North Indian Rhythms are no more complex (no less regular) than the patterns of expressive timing that occur in western music.[3] ”
Numerous composers (Beethoven, Brahms, Berlioz, Liszt, Mendelssohn, ...) have expressed criticism of the metronome. [4]
while I agree with this quote,I do think it can be useful to correct bad timing ,up to a point.
Personally I would rather use a guitar,to try and hold a pupil together,than a mechanical device,but I would not dismiss the use of metronomes entirely,if nothing else is available,they can be used to sort out speeding up.the best thing the original poster can do is get a good rhythm player to accompany them.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I agree with everyone that when people play with a click track or a metronome, and aren't good at it, the music is very much ruined by all the attempts to correct the musician's tempo.
However, I strongly disagree with the notion that metronomes are useless and restrictive. For one, it exposes individuals with bad rhythm who hide in the noise of a group or even the noise of trying to play along with a single instrument. You can't hide when you're off of those beats.
I think there is tremendous freedom in using a metronome, because once you've mastered playing at a consistent tempo (which is a real challenge and takes a lot of hard work), then you're totally free to play around within that tempo. You can be free to get totally away from the reference (the metronome beat) between those beats, to play around with the spacing of each note so you can give it a truly unique voicing, and yet you're still able to consistently come back to the pulse of the music.
In the end, for recording, I'm more ambivalent about using a click track. If the ensemble is together, it's unnecessary.
but as a practice tool to improve and indeed perfect one's sense of rhythm? It can't be beat, and anyone who says otherwise has bad rhythm. :P
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
having just been practising with a metronome,I am in agreement with dirty heel,when you get used to it you are totally free to play around in that tempo.
I also find the visual aid useful,you can turn the sound down,if you want[on an electronic]and just watch the click
.I still think the best thing for recording, is musicians live without click tracks, recording engineers dont like it,because if someone makes a mistake,you have to do another take,and also you get spillage from one channel to another,but it captures the empathy between musicians.
a metronome has a mechanical sense of rhythm,that is not the same as no sense of rhythm.
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I thought metronomes were about a sense of time, not rhythm.
Can't really get my head round click tracks, but learning to hear 'TICK, TICK, TICK' as 'TICK tick TICK tick TICK tick', or 'TICK tick tick tick TICK tick tick tick etc ' (or whatever) seems helpful.
But I could change my mind.
Even on an absolutely level surface my clockwork one was 5% out between the two swings, which was enough for me to eventually notice it when using one tick to a bar. Gone digital.
To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
Does the "click track" have benefits as a tool in the recording of Traditional Dance Music.?
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
A click track will kill your music. It's no better than a bodhran
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I can see how it might detract from the spirit of spontaneously playing the music Llig but I was also weighing that up against having the presence of an "invisible perfect pulse " coming from the recorded music after the click track is removed. My own experience through mucking about with this device is that
the rhythm of the music is at least 50 per cent more pronounced to my ears with a controlled tempo, but I have an
appalling sense of tempo anyway. (eg. speeding up etc) .
I was interested if anyone else found found it a help or a hindrance, and does anyone know if its common for Trad recording artists to use them. Or is it too much of an obstruction to ornamentation etc.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
You can't play a tune on a bodhran.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I mean a click track.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Sugarfoot Jack
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
if you have an appalling sense of tempo, using a click track will only only entrech your disability further.
My 11 month old boy has an appalling sense of balance. He keeps falling over when he tries to walk. Do you think I should just encourage him to carry on crawling instead?
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
"if you have an appalling sense of tempo, using a click track will only only entrech your disability further."
On the contrary, using a click-track (or a metronome) will force you to improve your sense of rhythm. But then again, one would hope that this kind of improvement would be done outside the context of making a recording. If you're recording, your rhythm should really already be good enough that you don't need it.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Georgi
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
i do some amateur recording,
dont like click tracks for many reasons.
i use a click track for non-itm, eg rock, death metal,lee-lah and yeeha.
in this age of DAWs it helps with the editing (cheating) process, and is vital it you're mixing live sound with midi controlled sounds/drum machines etc
with itm, its common for the tempo to change in a set, its also common for the tempo to ramp slowly upwards. so a basic click track wouldn't work, unless you wanted to just using one tempo throughout.
there are ways to create fancy click tracks and tempos, but
even then i dont like it. i feel you get a rather sanitised result.
when recording itm, instead of a click track, i would lay down a basic guitar chord track, paying very close attention to desired tempo and tempo changes, but still keeping the feel of the track. thats the idea anyway. it doesnt sound great, but it helps to keep the tempo , and also helps you to get on the groove (or whatever you call it) when recording subsequent tracks
i then use this to build the track around, then ditch the guide track.
as i said, i dont like click tracks anyway, they are an awful pain in your lughole when you're trying to be creative, man.
also with lots of live instruments and mics, its easy to get the click track bleeding from your headphones into the mic.
so if i do need a guide, i would use a drum machine instead of a click track, you can get a bit of swing out if it, and the sound is less horrible.
did i say i hate click tracks?
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by bambi
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
Nope, playing with a a click-track (or a metronome) will not force you to improve your sense of rhythm. On the contrary, it will merely constrict your freedom.
What happens when people with not too good a sense of play along with a mechanical time keeping device? The bits of of tune where they normally speed up or slow down are seldom improved because the reason they are rushed or laboured in the first place is because they are phrases that the player is unable to play properly. the metronome doesn't help here. But what it does do though is, after a phrase has been rushed, the following phrase that is usually played fine is forced to be artificially drawn out, to get back on the beat. And after a phrase has been laboured, the following phrase that is usually played fine is forced to be artificially rushed, to get back on the beat. The whole thing is complete dog's dinner.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I agree with Georgi.
I have done a lot of recording,5 lps 4 cds,Ithink the ideal way to record,is forall the musicians to play live together.
recording engineers dont generally like this as they can get a better hi fi sound, recording people individually.
one thing aclick track teaches you is to listen,another thing it can do is prevent you from speeding up,between different parts of atune.
a click track/metronome is a tool,if its used properly it can be useful.but the player doesnot want to become a slave to a tool.
I would advocate using it periodically but not all the time.
Micheal Gill is right in that,the best way to practise a bar /phrase you cant play ,is to slow it down,metronomes are adjustable and can be slowed down as well.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by dickens
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I have never tried to record any Irish music but I have done some recordings of other types of music and I do not like using a click track based on my experiences recording music.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
Metronomes were never invented to play music along too. They are simply a device to set a tempo. You listen to the tempo, switch it off and then play.
The click track was invented so that your midi sequencer didn't go out of time with the music. This technology is now redundent because your computer can now match any midi track to your "wayward" tempo.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
"My 11 month old boy has an appalling sense of balance. He keeps falling over when he tries to walk. Do you think I should just encourage him to carry on crawling instead?"
Yes, of course, any good parent knows that. He will learn in his own time.
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by Lingpupa
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I once heard a Mike Oldfield track that inspired me to go out a buy ( secondhand) copy of the album it was on. But after about three hearings I put it away for good. I could hear each instrument trying tokeep in time with the click track, and it doesn't really work because you don't have the musicians each listening to each other and reacting to those impercitable changes in rhythm that make up real music.
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
He can walk. He does walk. He loves walking. He falls over a lot. Do you think that when he stands up I should should gently lower him back down on to all fours?
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
[edit] Criticism of Metronome use
A metronome will never give the rhythm and pulse ("groove"), that actually underlies a piece music when performed in its correct style.
Even though sheet music contains notations of rhythm (e.g. with eighth notes, etc.), the "notes when performed by musicians" will never be played exactly as written. This is because the musicians are interpreting the music in its particular style, with musical phrases including light pauses, slow-downs, speed-ups, etc. In popular music, this is often termed "groove" and "swing".[1]
“ Another thing that becomes clear [...], is how much the listener's perception of rhythm differs from the reality of the metronome. While Feuermann's performances seemed to provide the clearest 'feel' of the beat -meaning that to a listener, the rhythm and tempo seemed the most clear and compelling- when trying to set a metronome, one found a slightly changing tempo throughout almost every measure -a constant rhythmic 'push and pull'- making metronome indications sometimes recordable only as a range between two or three adjacent markings or as an average. At the same time, other performers [...] whose performances did not yield to the ear as strong a sense of tempo or rhythm, fit more easily within a specific metronome marking. From this, it is clear that the feeling and perception of rhythm are conveyed much more by the performers choice of emphasis or 'pulse' than by strict adherence to any absolute metronomic rhythm.[2] „
As is well know among percussionists from the jazz and Latin styles, even highly "rhythmical" music such as Jazz, Salsa, Samba, etc. does not have a metronome's simplistic division of time. In addition to obvious speedups and slowdowns (e.g. during musical phrasing); the inner beats do not coincide with the metronome ticks. [1] (The actual rhythm does not only have just linear speedups and slowdowns, there is often certain inner tensions and resolution, in the way that certain notes are grouped naturally closer or further apart, or speed up, etc.):
“ Actual performance timings involve complex ratios that neither add nor multiply in any simple fashion.[3] ”
It is impossible to notate the details of musical rhythm on paper, or with single-parameter metronome-markings that reduce beat/meter to a single "beats per minute" value. The metronome can only be an indication of the average quickness of a piece of music. The only way that a rhythm of a particular style can be accurately noted (with all its stylistic characteristics), is by hearing it (e.g. recording) performed by someone who is familiar with its style.
Concerning sheet music: Sheet music notation is an approximation of rhythm - musicians that are familiar with the specific music's style will be able to naturally phrase the music appropriately:
“ [...] This suggests that listeners who are steeped in a particular musical culture will have a repertoire metrical “templates” which allow them to readily grasp such patterns, both as the music starts and as it changes as it goes on.[3] ”
The main criticism of the metronome usage is:
preventing the learning of the musical style, by the metronome's enforced "simplistic, even, fixed, mechanical beat schema", instead of the unrelated true stylistic rhythm with its inherent tensions and swing etc.
being a reductionistic view of actual rhythm
inhibiting creativity
causes limitations, rather than expressive variety
The criticisms also apply to musicians who play music in a metronomical fashion (always on beat), if they are not familior with the particular music's actual stylistic characteristics. The same goes for click-tracks used for synchronization when laying down different studio-tracks during recordings. Today electronic music incorporating traditional musical styles (and fusion electronic music) is often criticised in the same manner: beats are simply looped, without any attention to complex stylistic traditions that underlie the music that is "electonicized" - this is one of the challenges facing electronic music.
Concerning Western music's rubato and rhythmic flexibility:
“ The uneven beats in African and North Indian Rhythms are no more complex (no less regular) than the patterns of expressive timing that occur in western music.[3] ”
Numerous composers (Beethoven, Brahms, Berlioz, Liszt, Mendelssohn, ...) have expressed criticism of the metronome. [4]
while I agree with this quote,I do think it can be useful to correct bad timing ,up to a point.
Personally I would rather use a guitar,to try and hold a pupil together,than a mechanical device,but I would not dismiss the use of metronomes entirely,if nothing else is available,they can be used to sort out speeding up.the best thing the original poster can do is get a good rhythm player to accompany them.
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by dickens
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I agree with everyone that when people play with a click track or a metronome, and aren't good at it, the music is very much ruined by all the attempts to correct the musician's tempo.
However, I strongly disagree with the notion that metronomes are useless and restrictive. For one, it exposes individuals with bad rhythm who hide in the noise of a group or even the noise of trying to play along with a single instrument. You can't hide when you're off of those beats.
I think there is tremendous freedom in using a metronome, because once you've mastered playing at a consistent tempo (which is a real challenge and takes a lot of hard work), then you're totally free to play around within that tempo. You can be free to get totally away from the reference (the metronome beat) between those beats, to play around with the spacing of each note so you can give it a truly unique voicing, and yet you're still able to consistently come back to the pulse of the music.
In the end, for recording, I'm more ambivalent about using a click track. If the ensemble is together, it's unnecessary.
but as a practice tool to improve and indeed perfect one's sense of rhythm? It can't be beat, and anyone who says otherwise has bad rhythm. :P
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by dirtyheel
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
A metronome has no sense of rhythm. Can we agree on this?
So how can you perfect your sense of rhythm by playing with one?
Are you are saying that before you can develop a sense of rhythm, first you must learn to play like a metronome?
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
"get a clockwork metronome. Watching the swinging arm, even out of the corner of your eye, really helps."
Posted on April 8th 2007 by ????
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by david_h
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
having just been practising with a metronome,I am in agreement with dirty heel,when you get used to it you are totally free to play around in that tempo.
I also find the visual aid useful,you can turn the sound down,if you want[on an electronic]and just watch the click
.I still think the best thing for recording, is musicians live without click tracks, recording engineers dont like it,because if someone makes a mistake,you have to do another take,and also you get spillage from one channel to another,but it captures the empathy between musicians.
a metronome has a mechanical sense of rhythm,that is not the same as no sense of rhythm.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by dickens
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
I thought metronomes were about a sense of time, not rhythm.
Can't really get my head round click tracks, but learning to hear 'TICK, TICK, TICK' as 'TICK tick TICK tick TICK tick', or 'TICK tick tick tick TICK tick tick tick etc ' (or whatever) seems helpful.
But I could change my mind.
Even on an absolutely level surface my clockwork one was 5% out between the two swings, which was enough for me to eventually notice it when using one tick to a bar. Gone digital.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by david_h
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
A metronome does not cannot "sense" anything.
(Do metronomes dream of counting sheep?)
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: To Click or not to Click.That is the question.
My sense of time. My sense of rhythm.
Do you still think the swinging arm helps (or were you quoting something Jeremy deleted)
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by david_h