I have listened to the Shetland fiddle music, and thought it was very similar to the Irish fiddle music. So I was wondering if Shetland music is considered as part of Celtic music.
Historically, the Shetlands are more Nordic than Celtic though. Trad Shetland tunes don't sound very Irish, but Shetlanders are an eclectic bunch and play all sorts, including a lot of Texas swing
I hear they have some great festivals on those northern islands. Much of what I have heard from the Shetlands was composed by Shetlanders who are still living. Do you hear Shetland tunes played at Irish sessions? If so it is part of the tradition; at least in those session..
I have come to call most Scottish music and Irish music Celtic music, and Shetland music is -- Shetland music.
I have been Shetland-mad for about seven years now, and ever since I committed myself to going to Fiddle Frenzy this year, I have been learning mostly Shetland tunes. With that immersion, there has come a sense of their uniqueness. Despite all the different influences, I now feel there is a Shetland sound, unexpected harmonies, the famous ringing strings (can't wait to learn how to do that; that's a big agenda item for my FF week), the occasionally simplistic-seeming rhythms that are really the foundation for vast fiddle creativity and interpretation... All wonderful. Anyway, I now say, "Celtic and Shetland music" instead of just "Celtic music." It does seem to me that Shetland deserves a class all to itself.
Shetland has remains of prehistoric settlement possibly going back to the Neolithic, succeeded by early Christian era finds including at least one stone carved with items characteristic of the Picts, who lived in Scotland north of the Forth-Clyde line. It is assumed that Norwegian incomers wiped out the Picts in Shetland, at any rate as a distinct people, in the c8. The Picts may or may not have been Celtic - linguistically, that is; but if they were, they were the last Celtic-speaking group to inhabit Shetland. (Shetland has never been a Gaelic-speaking area.)
Shetland and Orkney were given by Norway to Scotland in or around 1475 as part of a dowry when a Norwegian princess was married to a King of Scotland. (I think it was Norway - it might have been Denmark.) Until then, the Shetland culture including the language had been Scandinavian. I think they had a kind of two-stringed fiddle, maybe they had other instruments as well.
Thereafter, Scottish lairds, merchants and others moved in, establishing an ascendancy that often exploited the people: Shetland was Scotland's Ireland, in a sense. But the Scots form of English was established, and no doubt the fiddle as we know it followed, with other imported instruments in time.
Shetland music is certainly distinctive - some say that its fiddle-playing techniques owe recognisably to Scandinavian music, and / or that of the mediaeval fiddle(s) in that part of the world, but I wouldn't know. It belongs with Lowland Scottish and Northumbrian music in being generated in an English-speaking as opposed to a Gaelic or Welsh-speaking world. I am happy to call all these "Celtic" if I want to say something briefer than, "These are more like Scottish and Irish music than they are like anything else" - but wouldn't go out of my way to use the C word.
I wonder if anyone's done any abstruse study on the relationship between the nature / details / composition of tunes and the language of the people who composed them? Just a thought.
Of course, nicholas, the Picts didn't call themselves "picts" either did they. That was the name the Romans gave them.
As for language, the people the Romans called the 'picts' probably spoke a p-celtic language, maybe something like Welsh, but thought to be an older version.
Irish and Scots Gaelic is q-celtic, related, but long way removed from p-celtic in linguistic evolution.
Shetlanders, if they spoke a celtic language at any time, probably spoke p-celtic. (The p in p-celtic doesn't stand for 'pict' either Nicholas, just to clarify that.)
While this discussion understandably focusses on old Shetland traditions, we shouldn't forget that the fiddling tradition is very much alive and ongoing there and has absorbed many 20th century influences in a natural and unforced way - swing jazz and country music most obviously - and made them "Shetland". My impression is that musicians there aren't split into separate camps according to what styles they prefer.
Also I'm always fascinated by the number of islanders who play mandolin, *allegedly* because it was easier and less risk to take a cheap mandolin on a fishing boat than a fiddle or accordion. Less risk of annoying your shipmates , as well as less risk to the instrument!
Ah, for the day, on such a site as the sesh, we stop talking about "celtic"... and just say Irish, Scottish, Shetland, and so on, music...
t'would be more "just" ! - and not in the business/marketing system...
I'd say - Shetland music's a part of Scottish music but not a part of Irish music, though having plenty in common with it: as far as I know there's been no significant traffic between Shetland and Ireland in the past. There was historically much more between Shetland and the North Sea / Baltic countries including GB, to do with fish trading. Shetlanders, as seamen or emigrants, did get about.
Two of the things I felt about Shetland when I went there in the 80s were how remote the British mainland felt - Shetland did seem sometimes like another country - and yet how open the place seemed to be to music and other things from the world outside.
The evidence from the various mitochondrial DNA & Y chromosome studes in recent years backs up what Nicholas says. The genetic makeup of the people in Shetland & Orkney is a bit different from the rest of Britain & Ireland. They're the only places where there's evidence for significant population replacement by invaders. In the rest of Britain & Ireland, the invasions by continental "celts", romans, saxons, vikings & normans seem to have had relatively small effects on the genetic make-up of the population.
Google for the various popular science articles or books by people like Bryan Sykes or Stephen Oppenheimer at Oxford or Dan Bradley at Trinity College Dublin if you're interested in this.
I love Shetland and Orkney. What always makes me smile is the Scandanavians - mainly Norwegian fishermen - who inhabit the pubs speak English in a wonderful Scottish accent quite distinct from anything else you hear. (And far better than most of todays Yoof).
Shetland music is extremely popular and often played up (or down) here in Northumberland, but I don't think it has anything to do with the distant ancestry of the Northumbrians or with visiting Shetlanders.
My theory is that Aly Bain and others popularised the music at about the time of a traditional music revival between the 1950's and present day. It just seems that a generation of trad musicians enjoyed the quirky, bouncy tunes that they were hearing on radio broadcasts, records and CD's.
I'm an old f@rt and I'm not keen on the 'Celtic' tag in relation to music. It's just a label for a shelf in the record-store, it makes me think of e-bows and didgeree-doos... grump grump.
I imagine Shetland tunes came to Northumberland largely via the mainstream Scottish folk and trad scene with outlets such as radio programmes and the Fiddle And Accordion Clubs with regular guest players which exist in Northumberland as well as Scotland.
Will Atkinson, Willy Taylor and Joe Hutton took them up, and I saw these old guys at Shetland Folk Festival in 1985 with Alistair Anderson. The High Level Ranters recorded a set or two of Shetland tunes in the late Sixties.
Some Shetland tunes have rhythms that are very compatible with the Northumbrian rant dance(s), which for local dance bands would be a reason to choose or prefer them.
Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I have listened to the Shetland fiddle music, and thought it was very similar to the Irish fiddle music. So I was wondering if Shetland music is considered as part of Celtic music.
does anyone know?
# Posted on April 22nd 2008 by limh
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
"Celtic" is a made-up category so why not?
Historically, the Shetlands are more Nordic than Celtic though. Trad Shetland tunes don't sound very Irish, but Shetlanders are an eclectic bunch and play all sorts, including a lot of Texas swing
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I'm no expert, but to me, Shetland music has always sounded to me like a great mix of "Celtic" and "Nordic" music. I think it qualifies for Celtic.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Leah W
Shetland music
I hear they have some great festivals on those northern islands. Much of what I have heard from the Shetlands was composed by Shetlanders who are still living. Do you hear Shetland tunes played at Irish sessions? If so it is part of the tradition; at least in those session..
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I like Shetland music--used to play a lot of Tom Anderson fiddle tunes, thanks to early years listening to recordings of him and Aly Bain.
I think Shetland music is...Shetland music. It's influenced by nordic and Scottish music, and lots of other genres. And by its own land/seascape.
Good stuff. I've heard and played Shetland music in many different Irish sessions.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I have come to call most Scottish music and Irish music Celtic music, and Shetland music is -- Shetland music.
I have been Shetland-mad for about seven years now, and ever since I committed myself to going to Fiddle Frenzy this year, I have been learning mostly Shetland tunes. With that immersion, there has come a sense of their uniqueness. Despite all the different influences, I now feel there is a Shetland sound, unexpected harmonies, the famous ringing strings (can't wait to learn how to do that; that's a big agenda item for my FF week), the occasionally simplistic-seeming rhythms that are really the foundation for vast fiddle creativity and interpretation... All wonderful. Anyway, I now say, "Celtic and Shetland music" instead of just "Celtic music." It does seem to me that Shetland deserves a class all to itself.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by cathrynb
Shetland
I agree
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Shetland has remains of prehistoric settlement possibly going back to the Neolithic, succeeded by early Christian era finds including at least one stone carved with items characteristic of the Picts, who lived in Scotland north of the Forth-Clyde line. It is assumed that Norwegian incomers wiped out the Picts in Shetland, at any rate as a distinct people, in the c8. The Picts may or may not have been Celtic - linguistically, that is; but if they were, they were the last Celtic-speaking group to inhabit Shetland. (Shetland has never been a Gaelic-speaking area.)
Shetland and Orkney were given by Norway to Scotland in or around 1475 as part of a dowry when a Norwegian princess was married to a King of Scotland. (I think it was Norway - it might have been Denmark.) Until then, the Shetland culture including the language had been Scandinavian. I think they had a kind of two-stringed fiddle, maybe they had other instruments as well.
Thereafter, Scottish lairds, merchants and others moved in, establishing an ascendancy that often exploited the people: Shetland was Scotland's Ireland, in a sense. But the Scots form of English was established, and no doubt the fiddle as we know it followed, with other imported instruments in time.
Shetland music is certainly distinctive - some say that its fiddle-playing techniques owe recognisably to Scandinavian music, and / or that of the mediaeval fiddle(s) in that part of the world, but I wouldn't know. It belongs with Lowland Scottish and Northumbrian music in being generated in an English-speaking as opposed to a Gaelic or Welsh-speaking world. I am happy to call all these "Celtic" if I want to say something briefer than, "These are more like Scottish and Irish music than they are like anything else" - but wouldn't go out of my way to use the C word.
I wonder if anyone's done any abstruse study on the relationship between the nature / details / composition of tunes and the language of the people who composed them? Just a thought.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by nicholas
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Why the feck does it matter?
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Because the language you use and the way in which a person uses that language influences the way you think and how your mind works.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Of course, nicholas, the Picts didn't call themselves "picts" either did they. That was the name the Romans gave them.
As for language, the people the Romans called the 'picts' probably spoke a p-celtic language, maybe something like Welsh, but thought to be an older version.
Irish and Scots Gaelic is q-celtic, related, but long way removed from p-celtic in linguistic evolution.
Shetlanders, if they spoke a celtic language at any time, probably spoke p-celtic. (The p in p-celtic doesn't stand for 'pict' either Nicholas, just to clarify that.)
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Sorry DD surly they spoke old Norse? coming from Viking stock ? Not a form of Celitic at all . Look at the place names .
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Thank goodness Scottish and Irish music aren't really "Celtic" (whatever that means). That's about as useful a term as "pan american."
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
So if you call shetland music "caltic", that will influence the way you think about it. Thta's just stupid
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I said "if" they spoke a celtic language at any time, bazouki. Nicholas seems to be the expert on that, if you read his post.
WillCPT - look up p-celt, q-celt, it's a long standing descriptor in analysis of that category of language. I guess they have to call it something eh.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Here you all are, a nice easy read over a cup of tea:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celtic_languages
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
While this discussion understandably focusses on old Shetland traditions, we shouldn't forget that the fiddling tradition is very much alive and ongoing there and has absorbed many 20th century influences in a natural and unforced way - swing jazz and country music most obviously - and made them "Shetland". My impression is that musicians there aren't split into separate camps according to what styles they prefer.
Also I'm always fascinated by the number of islanders who play mandolin, *allegedly* because it was easier and less risk to take a cheap mandolin on a fishing boat than a fiddle or accordion. Less risk of annoying your shipmates , as well as less risk to the instrument!
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Ah, for the day, on such a site as the sesh, we stop talking about "celtic"... and just say Irish, Scottish, Shetland, and so on, music...
t'would be more "just" ! - and not in the business/marketing system...
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Nikita Pfister
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I'd say - Shetland music's a part of Scottish music but not a part of Irish music, though having plenty in common with it: as far as I know there's been no significant traffic between Shetland and Ireland in the past. There was historically much more between Shetland and the North Sea / Baltic countries including GB, to do with fish trading. Shetlanders, as seamen or emigrants, did get about.
Two of the things I felt about Shetland when I went there in the 80s were how remote the British mainland felt - Shetland did seem sometimes like another country - and yet how open the place seemed to be to music and other things from the world outside.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by nicholas
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
The evidence from the various mitochondrial DNA & Y chromosome studes in recent years backs up what Nicholas says. The genetic makeup of the people in Shetland & Orkney is a bit different from the rest of Britain & Ireland. They're the only places where there's evidence for significant population replacement by invaders. In the rest of Britain & Ireland, the invasions by continental "celts", romans, saxons, vikings & normans seem to have had relatively small effects on the genetic make-up of the population.
Google for the various popular science articles or books by people like Bryan Sykes or Stephen Oppenheimer at Oxford or Dan Bradley at Trinity College Dublin if you're interested in this.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Ceratonia
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Seeing as most players of Irish Traditional Music speak English as their first language nowadays, perhaps it should be classed as Germanic music.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by ragaman
Music?
granama thanks for bringing up the term.
I was beginning to think everyone forgot why we are here.
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I love Shetland and Orkney. What always makes me smile is the Scandanavians - mainly Norwegian fishermen - who inhabit the pubs speak English in a wonderful Scottish accent quite distinct from anything else you hear. (And far better than most of todays Yoof).
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by bigdee
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I once saw one of these Norski guys being carried *into* the pub at the start of a crew's night out. His incapacitation looked drink-related to me...
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
Shetland music is extremely popular and often played up (or down) here in Northumberland, but I don't think it has anything to do with the distant ancestry of the Northumbrians or with visiting Shetlanders.
My theory is that Aly Bain and others popularised the music at about the time of a traditional music revival between the 1950's and present day. It just seems that a generation of trad musicians enjoyed the quirky, bouncy tunes that they were hearing on radio broadcasts, records and CD's.
I'm an old f@rt and I'm not keen on the 'Celtic' tag in relation to music. It's just a label for a shelf in the record-store, it makes me think of e-bows and didgeree-doos... grump grump.
HBM
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by Horrace Bampton-Morris
Re: Is Shetland music part of Irish/Celtic music?
I imagine Shetland tunes came to Northumberland largely via the mainstream Scottish folk and trad scene with outlets such as radio programmes and the Fiddle And Accordion Clubs with regular guest players which exist in Northumberland as well as Scotland.
Will Atkinson, Willy Taylor and Joe Hutton took them up, and I saw these old guys at Shetland Folk Festival in 1985 with Alistair Anderson. The High Level Ranters recorded a set or two of Shetland tunes in the late Sixties.
Some Shetland tunes have rhythms that are very compatible with the Northumbrian rant dance(s), which for local dance bands would be a reason to choose or prefer them.
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by nicholas