I've been having trouble bowing lately, particularly with controlling the bow. On jigs, I either slur way too much and have it ending up indistinct, or single-bow a lot and have each of the notes more distinct, but it doesn't have the jig phrasing and pulse. On reels, it is much the same. Also, sometimes the bow seems to have a mind of its own, and goes where it wants to, but it's sort of hard for me to pick it up and actually make the bow do this or do that or control how far and fast the bow travels.
Any ideas on this, on controlling the bow better, or developing a stronger bowing?
Hard to say without hearing and seeing you. But I wonder if you're trying to do too much with the bow. It's less about "control" and more about relaxing, about getting more with less.
Despite their classical orientation, those videos do a good job of demonstrating basic fiddle concepts. You can explore beyond that for what works for Irish fiddling.
Perhaps the most basic way to think about slurring and single bows in jigs and reels is to at first limit your slurring to just onto the strong beats. Start on the last note in a measure and slur onto the first note of the next measure (the down beat). It doesn't have to be a big swelling thump onto the beat--the slur itself will create some emphasis. Single bow the rest. Try doing that slur with down bows and up bows. When you get comfortable with all that, you can try sluring onto other strong beats (the first note of the second group of 1/8th notes in either a jig or reel).
Start with a simple tune that you know well already. And let your bow do whatever it has to for the pulse to come out. Bearing in mind that the bow only does two things--it goes up or it goes down. Keep it perpendicular to the strings. That's all the control you need. (That said, the clip on legato bowing at the link above is really good for showing how flexible and relaxed your fingers should be. A fine point of using the bow.)
You might also be your own worst critic, and your bowing isn't as bad you think.
The first time I saw video of me playing the fiddle, I braced myself--because it seemed to me, at the time, that my bowing was completely out of control. But on the video, it looked and sounded much better than I feared it would. So maybe the only thing you "have to fear is fear itself."
If you can tell that your bowing isn't quite right, then you're in good shape, because that means that you have the ear to get it right. Getting the level of control that lets you make the bow do what you want it to do just takes time...lots of time.
It may help to isolate some of your problem spots and practice them. If there's a certain phrase in a tune where the bow isn't doing what you want, play that phrase over and over and over again, experimenting with slight changes until it starts to sound right. And once it starts to sound right, play it over and over again. Boring, maybe, but it works.
A lot of it comes down to muscle memory. You have to do it right lots of times to be able to do it right consistently. The good news is that there are basic bowing patterns that are found all over the place in many different tunes, so you aren't really starting over every time you learn a new tune.
I think that if you slur way too much and have it ending up indistinct, or single-bow a lot and have each of the notes too distinct, and you don't like doing this, you are well on your way.
Will CPT,you offer some really good advice but I gotta disagree slightly when you say the bow can only do one of two things. Lifting the bow off the strings can tremendously help if you are worried about possible "slurring". Sure, it takes a lot of practice and I'm not suggesting doing it on every other note but finding the right spots in a tune where you can lift the bow can create a big difference in the way you sound. It's hard to describe without being able to demonstrate it but I hope someone else knows what I'm trying to say.
I go through phases where I'm not happy about bowing or the way I'm holding the fiddle and I usually find the problem goes away when I relax and stop thinking about it so hard!
Lonseome boatman, coming off the string and pouncing back on it can add punch to a tune, but it's certainly not a frequently used technique in Irish fiddle, and it has little to do with getting a steady pulse. More like a "special effect." And best not done too often (and certainly not as a way to avoid slurring).
Yes, there are all sorts of things you can do with the bow, but for this music, it really does boil down to up or down, and when and where to slur.
Let the tune tell you when and where to slur, and then listen again the next time around to let it tell you a different way to bow the same passage.
There is no one right way to bow jigs, or one right way to bow reels. Each tune has its own personality and wants to be played its own way. And even that changes depending on your mood, the pace and timing of the session, etc.
Thanks so all the advice! Will, the part you said about relaxing really seemed to help with smoothing out the tunes and getting them sounding like jigs and reels, not just notes. I also found playing tunes I know really well helped me to get the hang of it.
It really helped to know the bowing is something that will take years of practice, not just something you get in a snap.
By the way, apparently the lifting of the bow is very typical in Ottawa fiddling.
Catherine, sounds like you're on the right track. My mantra (so by definition, it's worth repeating ) is--"play effortlessly."
Think about what you most admire in a great musician's playing--it's that no matter what s/he is playing, it sounds easy, effortless. And that's all about relaxing.
And it has helped me to no end to go back to the simplest tunes I know every now and then and improve my pulse, improve my relaxation. Even 30 years in, I still do this on a regular basis. Think of it this way--if you can't get a groove on in Mountain Road, how will you do it in Eileen Curran or Beare Island Reel? And conversely, once you CAN feel the groove in a tune, that feel will more readily infect everything else you play.
Yep, some styles of fiddling do a lot of off-the-string attack. Just not much in Irish trad. A few tunes almost beg for it--think of the B part of Haste to the Wedding--but in general, you can play plenty of Irish trad without ever coming off the strings.
Hey, it's all about how each individual wants the tune to sound. I think I'm on the same page here as Billy CPt .....my theory with all this is to play the tune how ever the hell you're comfortable and whatever sounds good for you at the time (depending on how many pints into the night you are)....A tune will almost certainly sound different each time you play it just because of the human element involved (just as my newest friend Willie CPt described above ;)....
Sorry for misreading your name above Lonesome Bowman. Must not've had my glasses on....
We're on the same page if "how ever the hell you're comfortable and whatever sounds good for you at the time" is informed by a solid understanding of this music. If you're trying to play Irish trad, there's a lift and pulse to the music that are essential (and different from other types of music).
So it's only about "how each individual wants the tune to sound" within the bounds of what makes it sound like it belongs in the tradition, and not Muzak or rockabilly or classical, etc.
ah Will, we can talk 'bout this untill we're sick of eachother....I promise not to break your bow if you promise to never play Muzak with it...
My friend...you are indeed a gentleman and a scholar. Where you can explain yourself very well in this forum I'm more of a "hands-on" type and find myself at somewhat of a disadvantage when it comes to expressing myself here. We'll stick to the bowing topic here and agree it's a very personal thing and different unto eachother.
I believe we're beginning to stray into "darker' territory by talking about what's "Traditional" and what's not.
cheers
Yes cath, What WillCPT said. What I try to do
is listen fo the spot where I have overlooked
an accent, and then put one in. It;'s usually a
change in bow direction, that is a "chop" but
sometimes an ornament. This breaks up the
slushiness. But it takes a lot of listening to
yourself.
I listened to some of your clips from Jameson's Revenge and you clearly have your chops. Isaac Alderson is brilliant on flute! It got me thinking how fun it would be to regularly play with people of that caliber. So, in all sincerity, good on you.
On the other hand, I listen to punk (e.g., Killswitch Engage) when I want music that's more "in your face" than the usual trad approach. But all power to you and your band mates--sounds like you're all having fun, playing the music your way, and that's what counts.
Bowing advice
Bowing advice
I've been having trouble bowing lately, particularly with controlling the bow. On jigs, I either slur way too much and have it ending up indistinct, or single-bow a lot and have each of the notes more distinct, but it doesn't have the jig phrasing and pulse. On reels, it is much the same. Also, sometimes the bow seems to have a mind of its own, and goes where it wants to, but it's sort of hard for me to pick it up and actually make the bow do this or do that or control how far and fast the bow travels.
Any ideas on this, on controlling the bow better, or developing a stronger bowing?
Thanks, Cath
# Posted on April 22nd 2008 by enirehtac
Re: Bowing advice
Hard to say without hearing and seeing you. But I wonder if you're trying to do too much with the bow. It's less about "control" and more about relaxing, about getting more with less.
You could review the following clips on how to hold the bow and basic strokes: http://virtualviolin.blogspot.com/#vids
Despite their classical orientation, those videos do a good job of demonstrating basic fiddle concepts. You can explore beyond that for what works for Irish fiddling.
Perhaps the most basic way to think about slurring and single bows in jigs and reels is to at first limit your slurring to just onto the strong beats. Start on the last note in a measure and slur onto the first note of the next measure (the down beat). It doesn't have to be a big swelling thump onto the beat--the slur itself will create some emphasis. Single bow the rest. Try doing that slur with down bows and up bows. When you get comfortable with all that, you can try sluring onto other strong beats (the first note of the second group of 1/8th notes in either a jig or reel).
Start with a simple tune that you know well already. And let your bow do whatever it has to for the pulse to come out. Bearing in mind that the bow only does two things--it goes up or it goes down. Keep it perpendicular to the strings. That's all the control you need. (That said, the clip on legato bowing at the link above is really good for showing how flexible and relaxed your fingers should be. A fine point of using the bow.)
# Posted on April 22nd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing advice
You might also be your own worst critic, and your bowing isn't as bad you think.
The first time I saw video of me playing the fiddle, I braced myself--because it seemed to me, at the time, that my bowing was completely out of control. But on the video, it looked and sounded much better than I feared it would. So maybe the only thing you "have to fear is fear itself."
# Posted on April 22nd 2008 by mickray
Re: Bowing advice
If you can tell that your bowing isn't quite right, then you're in good shape, because that means that you have the ear to get it right. Getting the level of control that lets you make the bow do what you want it to do just takes time...lots of time.
It may help to isolate some of your problem spots and practice them. If there's a certain phrase in a tune where the bow isn't doing what you want, play that phrase over and over and over again, experimenting with slight changes until it starts to sound right. And once it starts to sound right, play it over and over again. Boring, maybe, but it works.
A lot of it comes down to muscle memory. You have to do it right lots of times to be able to do it right consistently. The good news is that there are basic bowing patterns that are found all over the place in many different tunes, so you aren't really starting over every time you learn a new tune.
# Posted on April 22nd 2008 by Screetch
Re: Bowing advice
Will -- Those videos are really good!
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Bowing advice
I think Lazyhound was the first to post a link here to those videos. The best online stuff I've seen yet on the basics of bowing and intonation, etc.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing advice
I think that if you slur way too much and have it ending up indistinct, or single-bow a lot and have each of the notes too distinct, and you don't like doing this, you are well on your way.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bowing advice
Will CPT,you offer some really good advice but I gotta disagree slightly when you say the bow can only do one of two things. Lifting the bow off the strings can tremendously help if you are worried about possible "slurring". Sure, it takes a lot of practice and I'm not suggesting doing it on every other note but finding the right spots in a tune where you can lift the bow can create a big difference in the way you sound. It's hard to describe without being able to demonstrate it but I hope someone else knows what I'm trying to say.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by The Lonesome Bowman
Re: Bowing advice
Yes, lifting the bow can make a big difference in how you sound--but it might not be the sound you want, for Irish tunes.
A *very* well-regarded fiddler once told me that lifting the bow is just not typically done, in traditional Irish fiddling.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by mickray
Re: Bowing advice
Woops! i thought it said bowling advice.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Dont
Re: Bowing advice
I go through phases where I'm not happy about bowing or the way I'm holding the fiddle and I usually find the problem goes away when I relax and stop thinking about it so hard!
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Tarrantella
Re: Bowing advice
Lonseome boatman, coming off the string and pouncing back on it can add punch to a tune, but it's certainly not a frequently used technique in Irish fiddle, and it has little to do with getting a steady pulse. More like a "special effect." And best not done too often (and certainly not as a way to avoid slurring).
Yes, there are all sorts of things you can do with the bow, but for this music, it really does boil down to up or down, and when and where to slur.
Let the tune tell you when and where to slur, and then listen again the next time around to let it tell you a different way to bow the same passage.
There is no one right way to bow jigs, or one right way to bow reels. Each tune has its own personality and wants to be played its own way. And even that changes depending on your mood, the pace and timing of the session, etc.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing advice
This is important:
It's not about learning bowing patterns or sequences that make the tune come alive.
It's about making the tune come alive no matter what your bow is doing.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing advice
what you dont want to do,is bow 3 slurs 3 slurs all the way through the tune.
Will cpts advice is pretty good.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing advice
Thanks so all the advice! Will, the part you said about relaxing really seemed to help with smoothing out the tunes and getting them sounding like jigs and reels, not just notes. I also found playing tunes I know really well helped me to get the hang of it.
It really helped to know the bowing is something that will take years of practice, not just something you get in a snap.
By the way, apparently the lifting of the bow is very typical in Ottawa fiddling.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by enirehtac
Re: Bowing advice
Thanks Will Cpt for that link to virtualviolinist videos. Spent a fair while going some of that.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by richard white
Re: Bowing advice
Catherine, sounds like you're on the right track. My mantra (so by definition, it's worth repeating
) is--"play effortlessly."
Think about what you most admire in a great musician's playing--it's that no matter what s/he is playing, it sounds easy, effortless. And that's all about relaxing.
And it has helped me to no end to go back to the simplest tunes I know every now and then and improve my pulse, improve my relaxation. Even 30 years in, I still do this on a regular basis. Think of it this way--if you can't get a groove on in Mountain Road, how will you do it in Eileen Curran or Beare Island Reel? And conversely, once you CAN feel the groove in a tune, that feel will more readily infect everything else you play.
Yep, some styles of fiddling do a lot of off-the-string attack. Just not much in Irish trad. A few tunes almost beg for it--think of the B part of Haste to the Wedding--but in general, you can play plenty of Irish trad without ever coming off the strings.
# Posted on April 23rd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing advice
Hey, it's all about how each individual wants the tune to sound. I think I'm on the same page here as Billy CPt .....my theory with all this is to play the tune how ever the hell you're comfortable and whatever sounds good for you at the time (depending on how many pints into the night you are)....A tune will almost certainly sound different each time you play it just because of the human element involved (just as my newest friend Willie CPt described above ;)....
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by The Lonesome Bowman
Re: Bowing advice
Sorry for misreading your name above Lonesome Bowman. Must not've had my glasses on....
We're on the same page if "how ever the hell you're comfortable and whatever sounds good for you at the time" is informed by a solid understanding of this music. If you're trying to play Irish trad, there's a lift and pulse to the music that are essential (and different from other types of music).
So it's only about "how each individual wants the tune to sound" within the bounds of what makes it sound like it belongs in the tradition, and not Muzak or rockabilly or classical, etc.
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing advice
ah Will, we can talk 'bout this untill we're sick of eachother....I promise not to break your bow if you promise to never play Muzak with it...
My friend...you are indeed a gentleman and a scholar. Where you can explain yourself very well in this forum I'm more of a "hands-on" type and find myself at somewhat of a disadvantage when it comes to expressing myself here. We'll stick to the bowing topic here and agree it's a very personal thing and different unto eachother.
I believe we're beginning to stray into "darker' territory by talking about what's "Traditional" and what's not.
cheers
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by The Lonesome Bowman
Re: Bowing advice
Just read your profile (ta for posting that) and I agree we're coming at this from very different perspectives--except that neither of us likes Muzak.
No worries.
(But don't mistake an ability to type for lack of being hands on, eh?
)
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing advice
Yes cath, What WillCPT said. What I try to do
is listen fo the spot where I have overlooked
an accent, and then put one in. It;'s usually a
change in bow direction, that is a "chop" but
sometimes an ornament. This breaks up the
slushiness. But it takes a lot of listening to
yourself.
# Posted on April 24th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: Bowing advice
All the best Will
....Cath, you'll be fine with your bowing. Nobody here will steer ya wrong.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by The Lonesome Bowman
Re: Bowing advice
And back at ya, Mr. Bowman.
I listened to some of your clips from Jameson's Revenge and you clearly have your chops. Isaac Alderson is brilliant on flute! It got me thinking how fun it would be to regularly play with people of that caliber. So, in all sincerity, good on you.
On the other hand, I listen to punk (e.g., Killswitch Engage) when I want music that's more "in your face" than the usual trad approach. But all power to you and your band mates--sounds like you're all having fun, playing the music your way, and that's what counts.
# Posted on April 25th 2008 by Will CPT