Well, I hope it's not been brought up before but recently, a talented accordion player friend of mine received the advice below from the self-appointed keeper of the tradition Micky Finn (are you still mourning Mark Bolan Mick?).
Finn's suggestion to my friend, among many words of ignorant rudeness, was that he should attend a traditional Irish accordion school. Surely, a 'knowledgeable' traditionalist would be aware that traditionally, music was learnt with other musicians or relatives when people got together for a few tunes. There are no traditions that I'm aware of of budding musicians being 'hot-housed' within a 'traditional' Irish instrument school with another 30 children, all diddling away. Is there?
Is Steve Peregrin Took also a keeper of the tradition?
DUG-N-REDUG-N-DUG-N-REDUG-REDUG, Oh Deborah...
What the tradition needs are more ex-70's popstars as keepers (especially ex-Tyranosaurus Rex players).
Gary Glitter ("He may a nonce but he wrote a good tune or two") upkeeps the tradition and runs a Traditional Irish Didgeroo School in Kingswood, Bristol. Phil Lynott is dead but at least he was Irish and his whistle academy in Hawaii is visited by him frequently- students enter knowing nothing of the tradition and leave with a certificate.
You take the music where you can get it, and I see no harm in attending classes, as long as you augment your learning in as many different ways as you can and don't turn into a clone of your teacher. At some point, you'll have to spread your wings.
Of course, I know what you're really driving at, Cath; the best and most "authentic"way to learn this music is by ear one-to-one from a good player. A few of the Summer schools provide almost one-to-one tuition so there's a lot to be said for them.
However if the accordion player you're talking about is who I think it is, then he's going to struggle to find someone from whom he can learn anything!
As for the other guy, well all I can say is some people talk a good tune.
well there probably better than nothing.
but,many teachers just teach their particular style,slowed down versions,where ornamentation is slavishly learned as an exact replica.
the pupil can end up sounding exactly like the teacher.
if the pupil had two different teachers they might develop their own hybrid style,but many of them dont,and it is balatantly obvious who has taught them.that is better than someone not playing music at all ,but not as good as someone who has developed their own style.
a really good teacher should be able to show different styles,or say this is the way Ido it but here is a recording [of the way Bobby Gardner ,or joe burke]does it.and slow that down for the pupil.
but that's the way of the world SWFL. History is written by the winners. The Tradition will not be multiple simultaneous confusing contradictory swirling threads but one consistent curriculum. The Revolution Will Be Televised. Press the red button on your remote to vote for your favourite on Diddley Idol Day
'soon these graduates will be in a majority, (the old players will have died off) and their way will be the *correct* way'
Never thaught about that....
...or this...'Diddley Idol Day' - Ha!
I thankfully don't think any of it will happen though, if it does, it wont stick.
I've been studying long-range under Professor Ceolcahlan re: preservation of the Sliabh Luchra style. Syllabus includes listening to Doyle and O'Leary until me ears fall off. It's working so far.
I was forced to listen to Dan O'Leary constantly as a child.
Unfortunately not the Kerry musician, but my dad. He couldn't play a fiddle but he could crack a whip. I almost bought that record for the name and the fantastic cover design, back in the 70s
Define traditional?
What time of the tradition do you speak at?
According to Seamus Tansey the tradition was ruined by groups like Planxty, bothy band etc...
Seems like some of the old grumpy players would rather die than share there music.
Times have changed since Tansey's young days. If an institution can help some one play credible Irish music, isn't that better than learning from a book?
you are touching on the common ground that is no longer. Irish communities, no internet or mass media, catholic, it took an effort to go see other musicians and in some cases that still is a problem.
What? Here? An internet correspondence course? You'd be daft if you thought it was. Every feckin eedjit under the sun throwing in their tupence? If you can get anything worthwhile out of this it would be just pure luck
I enjoy going to summer schools I learn from the classes, even taught one once. Yes they are lots of beginners, so what? Everyone was one once (even Michael ). I enjoy the sessions, hearing new people, meeting new people seeing new places and I believe in encouraging others. Curmudgeons may prefer to sulk at home the best place for them I say. The school is more than just the lessons .
I would recommend South Sligo, Drumshambo or Achill Island schools to anyone.
After all I met Tooty herself at a Summer School I don’t promise that you all could be so lucky however .
Oh yes. I recommend applying directly to the teacher/mentor of your choice to establish some non-mustard board communication for proper long-range instruction.
Sigh. I'm teaching at a week-long fiddle camp this summer, and I have strongly mixed feelings about it. But I'll do my best to make it personal, one-on-one, and not just a slurry of tunes force fed to the pupils.
On the plus side, my group will be small, and we have an entire week to get to know each other and the music. (Which is a bit like having a blink of an eye to read all of Irish literature. Sigh.) But I'll offer ongoing follow up for anyone who wants it. So in a way, the camp will just be a starting place, assuming someone is serious about immersing themselves in this music.
Many of the other fiddle teachers at this camp are gigging professionals or serious "contest" fiddlers, spanning bluegrass, old timey, swing, and cajun, who specialize in showy, virtuousic fiddling. All power to them, but I'll be teaching how to play kitchen music among friends. I just hope there'll be a few receptive people still in the room after day one....
Summer schools seem like a big session or festival though. I don't think it would be the same as a degree course.
Not that I said it was good or bad, just that it will become the "new normal"
I think there's a perfectly acceptable precedent for traditional music schools.
James Morrison had a couple hundred students, between several towns in Sligo. Then he moved to NY, and set up another school there (where he taught Paddy Killoran, if I'm not mistaken).
I suspect the biggest reason it hadn't been as common to have "schools" before, was the difficulty in transporting people to the one school building (easier for the teacher to travel around).
Festival workshops are fine, but you certainly can't expect them to give you everything. They give students ideas. You wouldn't expect to learn everything you need in a week, but it might very well help you out.
In the end, I think Tony MacMahon was right when he said that Irish music was "more learned than taught". In order for students to really get better, the student needs to be proactive in learning their music, and actually WORK to get it right.
Which is why so many of us are largely "self-taught." You get tips and pointers from mentoring players, but it really is thousands of hours of listening and playing that make a person a player.
I remember thinking at one point (actually not all that long ago) that I wanted to take lessons to improve my tone control on fiddle. At the same time, I knew what I had to do. So instead of throwing money at some local violin teacher, I just buckled down and focused on tone production, all the variables, and listened and adjusted until I could consistently produce the tone qualities I wanted.
Of course, it's a never ending cycle, but that's part of the joy of music.
I must apologize - I wrote a comment earlier. It was un-focused and didn't really relate to Cath's questions. so here is take 2.
In response to "music was learnt with other musicians or relatives when people got together for a few tunes."
True but this seems to be changing. In this approach, if the student is interested and a nurturing teaching environment is provided this can be very successful.
On the other hand, I've seen it back fire where the student is treated like sh*te. The attitude of the teacher is intimidating, often says " I don't understand why you can't play this - look how easy it is! - my two year old can play that! - whats wrong with you?" or doesn't let his/her student know that they won't be there for the lesson after they drove two hours to get there or may show up for a lesson only to hear complaints about other players and what there doing wrong. Some musicians don't have very good social skills. As adults we can process this and respond intellectually and not emotionally. In front of parents from the prospective of a kid, it would most likely be their last lesson.
In response to"There are no traditions that I'm aware of of budding musicians being 'hot-housed' within a 'traditional' Irish instrument school with another 30 children, all diddling away. Is there?"
As I mentioned earlier in this post a lot has changed. First, there are a lot more people interested in Irish music these days than, lets say the 1950's and outside of Ireland. Secondly, the availability of the music in Tutors, books, cds, numerous internet sources, schools and the number of people teaching is as big as its ever been.
I'm getting to the point...
There are a lot of schools available to teach students. There probably are budding musicians from schools but how would you know of it? Would they admit it?
Here is one example of budding musician out of a pipers club and out of a school - no CCE relation (notice the comment about that in the quote from an interview-I would strongly agree)
I started playing music when I was 8 years old under the guidance of Eithne and Brian Vallely, two amazing musicians from Armagh in the north of Ireland. They ran a class that has been going for 30 years now,called the Armagh Pipers Club. Brian's a piper and Eithne's a fiddle player. They both organised an athletic club in Armagh at the same time, and my family were involve in sport; we were actually connected to the music classes. At that stage in Ireland there were a lot of Comhaltas organisations and there were very few independent music teachers who worked outside Comhaltas because they had an almost vise-like grip over the Fleadh Cheoils. Brian was actually one of the founder members of the Dublin Piper's Club with Paddy Molony and then he moved up north and married Eithne and formed the Armagh Piper's club.
So I went along there when I was 8 years old, starting on the whistle and they gave me my first flute when I was 10 and that was it! I started playing away with the Piper's Club and travelled quite a lot with them. They took me all over the world, even at that young age. We used to have amazing adventures during foreign trips, and just have a really good time.
Then when I was 18 I decided that I would form a band. I played a lot of music at school as well. There was a group at school which was the school equivalent of the Fleadh. We had a pretty good group and we won a couple of national titles. It meant a lot for the school to have someone represent them at national level, and just being up there on stage gave me the bug to form a band.
#########
Note the nurturing learning environment Brian had.
SO, yes I think there are budding players out therefrom schools,clubs or institutions . They may not be internationally known (or want to be) but there are a lot of them the play damn well.
"music was learnt with other musicians or relatives when people got together for a few tunes."
Hrmph. I think that's sort of trivializing the matter. I doubt the likes of Paddy Cronin would attribute his musical ability to merely "sitting aroung and getting together for a few tunes". Learning to play music well takes WORK, and back then it was often work amidst hardship as well.
After hearing and reading about the old fiddle masters, it sounds like music was a very "sink or swim" world. If you were going to play as a child, you'd either have to pick up music in spite of your parents--Tom McCarthy had to rescue his first flute/whistle from the fireplace after his mother caught him learning to play--or you went to a travelling music/dance teacher (like Morrison or O'Keefe), neither of which were excessively nurturing. Paddy Jones told of having to walk a couple miles to O'Keefe's house, only to be handed a sheet of music on paper and send back home. Paddy Keenan's dad locked him in the attic for hours at a time (if I remember the story correctly), sending him back to the attic if he hadn't learned the tune properly.
Not that I'm advocating this teaching style, mind you, but let's not mythologize it. Music was hard to come by... At least much harder than it is now. It wasn't all "Let's sit by the fire and have a few tunes so you can become a good musician"! People either had teachers (who hopefully made it easier), or they went to pretty extraordinary lengths to learn it otherwise... And we don't hear about the hundreds of students that fell by the wayside in the process--or the hundreds that never learned more than a party-piece or two worth of music.
Nurturing is all fine and dandy, but I'm not convinced it does a much better job of producing good musicians on it's own. The musician has to have the motivation to do the work themselves, whether it be for a nurturing/friendly teacher, a nasty one, or even no teacher at all.
But one place where a teacher can really help, is in trying to get a student started off in the right direction. A minor adjustment in position can save you from a lifetime of carpal tunnel syndrome, or from years of wasted effort trying to learn to zig when the real thing holding you back is your inability to zag.
Georgi,
If I remember right, Paddy Keenan was beaten at times for the way he played. Imagine the psychological pay load there. I think we're lucky he stuck with.
I think nurturing is a big part of it. It is not a sole reason for the development of a good player. Ask Seamus Connolly about his trip to learn from Hughie Gillespie - he had both nurturing and determination.
Without the two you end up with a party-piece or two worth of music.
Not to be a stickler for details, madfluter, but you appear to be suggesting that BOTH nurturing AND determination are necessary, a mere paragraph below giving a perfect example to the contrary.
Again, I'm not advocating harsh teaching (nurturing a student is simply nicer and more humane), but I've seen plenty of well-intended students fall by the wayside after over-coddling teachers let them get away with musical murder for years (and it's heartbreaking to see). It's the student's determination to get better that makes the difference, regardless of the teaching approach.
In the end, you might get farther with the proverbial carrot than the stick, but it's the mule that has to do the moving.
Georgi,
I re-read my last post. I honestly don't remember writing that last line in my last post- must of been late. I've given a lot of thought to what you said in the past posts.
Taking a look my own experience (rather than the gods I mentioned earlier), I left a nurturing setting (and boy do I miss it) years ago. But the only thing that has kept me playing is determination and a few friends who play(Wait! Is that considered nurturing?).
Regards..
I have been playing for more than 30 years. I was first introduced to this music and dance at a festival. I am retiring from my career as a government bureaucrat at the end of May after 36 years (my god, do I feel old when I say that - it's 60% of my life!). And tonight, I have just registered to attend the Festival of American Fiddle Tunes in Port Townsend Washington, USA, which is one of the festivals that got me interested in this music in the beginning. I am feeling YOUNG again! Paul Bradley is the Irish fiddle staff person this year. Also, a couple of the MacIsaacs will be there, plus dozens of people that I have known over the years who play this music and/or who dance. I feel like I'm going home. This is not a school where one gets a degree or even a certificate. Really, a place to connect with many (hndreds) of people who play traditional music (American, Irish, Cape Breton, Quebecois, Mexican, etc...), have some fun, renew old aquaintances, make new friends, learn new tunes, and rejuvenate. I am so happy I will be able to go this year. Perfect!!!
So what the person who started this discussion does is to quote a chunk of a personal message that I sent to her mate (chastising him, I have to say, for trampling on the toes of some very seasoned musicians, and for which he apologised). Now she makes out that I'm rude and ignorant. Well, now. I'd probably live with the former, but hardly the latter. Sometimes a touch of rudeness is called for, otherwise we'd have all sorts of cowboys turning up to sessions with inappropriate instruments and inappropriate attitudes, wrecking all round them.
The irony is that my advice regarding getting a teacher was genuinely meant to be helfpul. The lad in qeustion knows his way around a piano accordion, but he lacks delicacy, restraint and nyaa. But then again, who am I to say? Fire away! I'll give up on advice since the wetbacks and come-latelys are running the show these days. God help us!
Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Well, I hope it's not been brought up before but recently, a talented accordion player friend of mine received the advice below from the self-appointed keeper of the tradition Micky Finn (are you still mourning Mark Bolan Mick?).
Finn's suggestion to my friend, among many words of ignorant rudeness, was that he should attend a traditional Irish accordion school. Surely, a 'knowledgeable' traditionalist would be aware that traditionally, music was learnt with other musicians or relatives when people got together for a few tunes. There are no traditions that I'm aware of of budding musicians being 'hot-housed' within a 'traditional' Irish instrument school with another 30 children, all diddling away. Is there?
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Cath
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
'fraid there is yeah. From "summer schools" to "festival "workshops" and even degrees in the stuff
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Is Steve Peregrin Took also a keeper of the tradition?
DUG-N-REDUG-N-DUG-N-REDUG-REDUG, Oh Deborah...
What the tradition needs are more ex-70's popstars as keepers (especially ex-Tyranosaurus Rex players).
Gary Glitter ("He may a nonce but he wrote a good tune or two") upkeeps the tradition and runs a Traditional Irish Didgeroo School in Kingswood, Bristol. Phil Lynott is dead but at least he was Irish and his whistle academy in Hawaii is visited by him frequently- students enter knowing nothing of the tradition and leave with a certificate.
Cheers!
Krick
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Krick Stahlschwanz
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
You take the music where you can get it, and I see no harm in attending classes, as long as you augment your learning in as many different ways as you can and don't turn into a clone of your teacher. At some point, you'll have to spread your wings.
Of course, I know what you're really driving at, Cath; the best and most "authentic"way to learn this music is by ear one-to-one from a good player. A few of the Summer schools provide almost one-to-one tuition so there's a lot to be said for them.
However if the accordion player you're talking about is who I think it is, then he's going to struggle to find someone from whom he can learn anything!
As for the other guy, well all I can say is some people talk a good tune.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
well there probably better than nothing.
but,many teachers just teach their particular style,slowed down versions,where ornamentation is slavishly learned as an exact replica.
the pupil can end up sounding exactly like the teacher.
if the pupil had two different teachers they might develop their own hybrid style,but many of them dont,and it is balatantly obvious who has taught them.that is better than someone not playing music at all ,but not as good as someone who has developed their own style.
a really good teacher should be able to show different styles,or say this is the way Ido it but here is a recording [of the way Bobby Gardner ,or joe burke]does it.and slow that down for the pupil.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by anon
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Hi Cath!
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by maxF
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
soon these graduates will be in a majority, (the old players will have died off) and their way will be the *correct* way
You have been warned
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Well thanks bren, that's incredibly despressing.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
here > have a double despresso on me
but that's the way of the world SWFL. History is written by the winners. The Tradition will not be multiple simultaneous confusing contradictory swirling threads but one consistent curriculum. The Revolution Will Be Televised. Press the red button on your remote to vote for your favourite on Diddley Idol Day
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
'soon these graduates will be in a majority, (the old players will have died off) and their way will be the *correct* way'
Never thaught about that....
...or this...'Diddley Idol Day' - Ha!
I thankfully don't think any of it will happen though, if it does, it wont stick.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
I for one will rage against it all!
I've been studying long-range under Professor Ceolcahlan re: preservation of the Sliabh Luchra style. Syllabus includes listening to Doyle and O'Leary until me ears fall off. It's working so far.
http://www.www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1247
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
...he's a great teacher. He doesn't even mind when I mis-spell his name.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Ha, as well as "summer schools", festival "workshops" and even "degrees" in the stuff, there are internet correspondence courses
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
That's what this is, isn't it Michael?
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
I was forced to listen to Dan O'Leary constantly as a child.
Unfortunately not the Kerry musician, but my dad. He couldn't play a fiddle but he could crack a whip. I almost bought that record for the name and the fantastic cover design, back in the 70s
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Define traditional?
What time of the tradition do you speak at?
According to Seamus Tansey the tradition was ruined by groups like Planxty, bothy band etc...
Seems like some of the old grumpy players would rather die than share there music.
Times have changed since Tansey's young days. If an institution can help some one play credible Irish music, isn't that better than learning from a book?
you are touching on the common ground that is no longer. Irish communities, no internet or mass media, catholic, it took an effort to go see other musicians and in some cases that still is a problem.
just some thoughts here...
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by madfluter
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
What? Here? An internet correspondence course? You'd be daft if you thought it was. Every feckin eedjit under the sun throwing in their tupence? If you can get anything worthwhile out of this it would be just pure luck
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
I enjoy going to summer schools I learn from the classes, even taught one once. Yes they are lots of beginners, so what? Everyone was one once (even Michael ). I enjoy the sessions, hearing new people, meeting new people seeing new places and I believe in encouraging others. Curmudgeons may prefer to sulk at home the best place for them I say. The school is more than just the lessons .
I would recommend South Sligo, Drumshambo or Achill Island schools to anyone.
After all I met Tooty herself at a Summer School I don’t promise that you all could be so lucky however .
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by bazouki dave
Mad fluter ,I have listened to Mr Tansey talk at length many times about groups and such things at a summer school an education in itself
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Oh yes. I recommend applying directly to the teacher/mentor of your choice to establish some non-mustard board communication for proper long-range instruction.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Sigh. I'm teaching at a week-long fiddle camp this summer, and I have strongly mixed feelings about it. But I'll do my best to make it personal, one-on-one, and not just a slurry of tunes force fed to the pupils.
On the plus side, my group will be small, and we have an entire week to get to know each other and the music. (Which is a bit like having a blink of an eye to read all of Irish literature. Sigh.) But I'll offer ongoing follow up for anyone who wants it. So in a way, the camp will just be a starting place, assuming someone is serious about immersing themselves in this music.
Many of the other fiddle teachers at this camp are gigging professionals or serious "contest" fiddlers, spanning bluegrass, old timey, swing, and cajun, who specialize in showy, virtuousic fiddling. All power to them, but I'll be teaching how to play kitchen music among friends. I just hope there'll be a few receptive people still in the room after day one....
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Summer schools seem like a big session or festival though. I don't think it would be the same as a degree course.
Not that I said it was good or bad, just that it will become the "new normal"
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Bren
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
I think there's a perfectly acceptable precedent for traditional music schools.
James Morrison had a couple hundred students, between several towns in Sligo. Then he moved to NY, and set up another school there (where he taught Paddy Killoran, if I'm not mistaken).
I suspect the biggest reason it hadn't been as common to have "schools" before, was the difficulty in transporting people to the one school building (easier for the teacher to travel around).
Festival workshops are fine, but you certainly can't expect them to give you everything. They give students ideas. You wouldn't expect to learn everything you need in a week, but it might very well help you out.
In the end, I think Tony MacMahon was right when he said that Irish music was "more learned than taught". In order for students to really get better, the student needs to be proactive in learning their music, and actually WORK to get it right.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Which is why so many of us are largely "self-taught." You get tips and pointers from mentoring players, but it really is thousands of hours of listening and playing that make a person a player.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
I remember thinking at one point (actually not all that long ago) that I wanted to take lessons to improve my tone control on fiddle. At the same time, I knew what I had to do. So instead of throwing money at some local violin teacher, I just buckled down and focused on tone production, all the variables, and listened and adjusted until I could consistently produce the tone qualities I wanted.
Of course, it's a never ending cycle, but that's part of the joy of music.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
I must apologize - I wrote a comment earlier. It was un-focused and didn't really relate to Cath's questions. so here is take 2.
In response to "music was learnt with other musicians or relatives when people got together for a few tunes."
True but this seems to be changing. In this approach, if the student is interested and a nurturing teaching environment is provided this can be very successful.
On the other hand, I've seen it back fire where the student is treated like sh*te. The attitude of the teacher is intimidating, often says " I don't understand why you can't play this - look how easy it is! - my two year old can play that! - whats wrong with you?" or doesn't let his/her student know that they won't be there for the lesson after they drove two hours to get there or may show up for a lesson only to hear complaints about other players and what there doing wrong. Some musicians don't have very good social skills. As adults we can process this and respond intellectually and not emotionally. In front of parents from the prospective of a kid, it would most likely be their last lesson.
In response to"There are no traditions that I'm aware of of budding musicians being 'hot-housed' within a 'traditional' Irish instrument school with another 30 children, all diddling away. Is there?"
As I mentioned earlier in this post a lot has changed. First, there are a lot more people interested in Irish music these days than, lets say the 1950's and outside of Ireland. Secondly, the availability of the music in Tutors, books, cds, numerous internet sources, schools and the number of people teaching is as big as its ever been.
I'm getting to the point...
There are a lot of schools available to teach students. There probably are budding musicians from schools but how would you know of it? Would they admit it?
Here is one example of budding musician out of a pipers club and out of a school - no CCE relation (notice the comment about that in the quote from an interview-I would strongly agree)
############
Interview with Brian Finnegan (Flook)
the whole thing here http://www.firescribble.net/flute/finnegan.html
I started playing music when I was 8 years old under the guidance of Eithne and Brian Vallely, two amazing musicians from Armagh in the north of Ireland. They ran a class that has been going for 30 years now,called the Armagh Pipers Club. Brian's a piper and Eithne's a fiddle player. They both organised an athletic club in Armagh at the same time, and my family were involve in sport; we were actually connected to the music classes. At that stage in Ireland there were a lot of Comhaltas organisations and there were very few independent music teachers who worked outside Comhaltas because they had an almost vise-like grip over the Fleadh Cheoils. Brian was actually one of the founder members of the Dublin Piper's Club with Paddy Molony and then he moved up north and married Eithne and formed the Armagh Piper's club.
So I went along there when I was 8 years old, starting on the whistle and they gave me my first flute when I was 10 and that was it! I started playing away with the Piper's Club and travelled quite a lot with them. They took me all over the world, even at that young age. We used to have amazing adventures during foreign trips, and just have a really good time.
Then when I was 18 I decided that I would form a band. I played a lot of music at school as well. There was a group at school which was the school equivalent of the Fleadh. We had a pretty good group and we won a couple of national titles. It meant a lot for the school to have someone represent them at national level, and just being up there on stage gave me the bug to form a band.
#########
Note the nurturing learning environment Brian had.
SO, yes I think there are budding players out therefrom schools,clubs or institutions . They may not be internationally known (or want to be) but there are a lot of them the play damn well.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by madfluter
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
"music was learnt with other musicians or relatives when people got together for a few tunes."
Hrmph. I think that's sort of trivializing the matter. I doubt the likes of Paddy Cronin would attribute his musical ability to merely "sitting aroung and getting together for a few tunes". Learning to play music well takes WORK, and back then it was often work amidst hardship as well.
After hearing and reading about the old fiddle masters, it sounds like music was a very "sink or swim" world. If you were going to play as a child, you'd either have to pick up music in spite of your parents--Tom McCarthy had to rescue his first flute/whistle from the fireplace after his mother caught him learning to play--or you went to a travelling music/dance teacher (like Morrison or O'Keefe), neither of which were excessively nurturing. Paddy Jones told of having to walk a couple miles to O'Keefe's house, only to be handed a sheet of music on paper and send back home. Paddy Keenan's dad locked him in the attic for hours at a time (if I remember the story correctly), sending him back to the attic if he hadn't learned the tune properly.
Not that I'm advocating this teaching style, mind you, but let's not mythologize it. Music was hard to come by... At least much harder than it is now. It wasn't all "Let's sit by the fire and have a few tunes so you can become a good musician"! People either had teachers (who hopefully made it easier), or they went to pretty extraordinary lengths to learn it otherwise... And we don't hear about the hundreds of students that fell by the wayside in the process--or the hundreds that never learned more than a party-piece or two worth of music.
Nurturing is all fine and dandy, but I'm not convinced it does a much better job of producing good musicians on it's own. The musician has to have the motivation to do the work themselves, whether it be for a nurturing/friendly teacher, a nasty one, or even no teacher at all.
But one place where a teacher can really help, is in trying to get a student started off in the right direction. A minor adjustment in position can save you from a lifetime of carpal tunnel syndrome, or from years of wasted effort trying to learn to zig when the real thing holding you back is your inability to zag.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Georgi,
If I remember right, Paddy Keenan was beaten at times for the way he played. Imagine the psychological pay load there. I think we're lucky he stuck with.
I think nurturing is a big part of it. It is not a sole reason for the development of a good player. Ask Seamus Connolly about his trip to learn from Hughie Gillespie - he had both nurturing and determination.
Without the two you end up with a party-piece or two worth of music.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by madfluter
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Not to be a stickler for details, madfluter, but you appear to be suggesting that BOTH nurturing AND determination are necessary, a mere paragraph below giving a perfect example to the contrary.
Again, I'm not advocating harsh teaching (nurturing a student is simply nicer and more humane), but I've seen plenty of well-intended students fall by the wayside after over-coddling teachers let them get away with musical murder for years (and it's heartbreaking to see). It's the student's determination to get better that makes the difference, regardless of the teaching approach.
In the end, you might get farther with the proverbial carrot than the stick, but it's the mule that has to do the moving.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Hee haw!
LOL, I've been braying on my fiddle for years...still stuck in the mud.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
Georgi,
I re-read my last post. I honestly don't remember writing that last line in my last post- must of been late. I've given a lot of thought to what you said in the past posts.
Taking a look my own experience (rather than the gods I mentioned earlier), I left a nurturing setting (and boy do I miss it) years ago. But the only thing that has kept me playing is determination and a few friends who play(Wait! Is that considered nurturing?).
Regards..
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by madfluter
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
I have been playing for more than 30 years. I was first introduced to this music and dance at a festival. I am retiring from my career as a government bureaucrat at the end of May after 36 years (my god, do I feel old when I say that - it's 60% of my life!). And tonight, I have just registered to attend the Festival of American Fiddle Tunes in Port Townsend Washington, USA, which is one of the festivals that got me interested in this music in the beginning. I am feeling YOUNG again! Paul Bradley is the Irish fiddle staff person this year. Also, a couple of the MacIsaacs will be there, plus dozens of people that I have known over the years who play this music and/or who dance. I feel like I'm going home. This is not a school where one gets a degree or even a certificate. Really, a place to connect with many (hndreds) of people who play traditional music (American, Irish, Cape Breton, Quebecois, Mexican, etc...), have some fun, renew old aquaintances, make new friends, learn new tunes, and rejuvenate. I am so happy I will be able to go this year. Perfect!!!
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by tacoman
Re: Traditional Music Schools - an oxymoron?
So what the person who started this discussion does is to quote a chunk of a personal message that I sent to her mate (chastising him, I have to say, for trampling on the toes of some very seasoned musicians, and for which he apologised). Now she makes out that I'm rude and ignorant. Well, now. I'd probably live with the former, but hardly the latter. Sometimes a touch of rudeness is called for, otherwise we'd have all sorts of cowboys turning up to sessions with inappropriate instruments and inappropriate attitudes, wrecking all round them.
The irony is that my advice regarding getting a teacher was genuinely meant to be helfpul. The lad in qeustion knows his way around a piano accordion, but he lacks delicacy, restraint and nyaa. But then again, who am I to say? Fire away! I'll give up on advice since the wetbacks and come-latelys are running the show these days. God help us!
# Posted on May 15th 2008 by Micky Finn