Camwebby - who on earth said 'it wasnt right' I'd take everything you hear in the sydney scene with a pinch of salt, not trying to get into a fight here, but there is alot of dead wood around and only few people who actually know anything about backing!
DAGAD works just fine as does Dropped D (standard tuning with your low E string tuned down to D). bb is correct, no right or wrong involved here it's all about finding your own voice wether it be in DADGAD, Dropped D, or for that matter Standard tuning.
I'm in similar shoes but the journey is fun. Best to you!
i would take with a kilo of salt anything offered to you at a session as "right or wrong" DADGAD is fine, possibly even "standard" at many sessions. Tuning is actually a matter of personal preference - no where near as important as "hearing" the tune you are backing.
Don't play a guitar at all, play a 'zouk.
I haven't taken my guitar to an ITM session for 2 & 1/2 years, at least; more than one is superfluous, the close tuning muddies up the harmonies, they don't project so well if you want to play a tune......
"Complete" means that everything necessary is there for there to be a valid tune, even if it's just one whistle. It might sound better to me if you added a fiddle, or even better still if there was a flute. To fauxcelt, it will sound even better still when proper accompaniment is added, though MacCruiskeen will be disappointed.
Scrambled eggs are better when the right amount of Tabasco is added. My teenage son says that statement is 180 degrees wrong, but that's just because he's a teenager.
"Complete" does not mean that everything necessary is there for there to be a valid tune. It simply means that "everything is there".
However, I must admit to the existence of personal preference. If any one thinks that the music sounds better when it is properly accompanied, then that is merely their preference for flavouring. They can think what they like. But they must never ever think that it is incomplete without the flavouring.
"right -wrong. best, better, worse"!!! . keep going to sessions and you'll discover how meaningless this all really is. If the music hits the mark - consider yorself blessed and enjoy it - who or what is playing is irelevant
Not your fault, camwebby. It's the nature of human beans and chat forums.
But all you really need to know is that there is no "best" guitar tuning for playing this music. Use whatever tuning(s) suit you and sound good to you.
Sorry Ron, but "complete" really is the right word. All the sound necessary can be found in the tunes played by a fiddle, flute, whistle or pipes.
Scrambled egg is what it is. I like a bit of blue cheese in mine. Or depending on my mood, spring onions, mushrooms, anchovies, bacon, garlic. But scrambled egg is what it is. It's egg. It's irrelevant that you may think that egg is "sufficient" or not. Scrambled egg is what it is.
Whether or not a tune should be accompanied depends on who is playing it and what they are playing. One of the best versions of "Mairi's Wedding" which I heard many years ago was performed by just a flute and a bodhran. I have also heard a solo version of this tune on flute which I liked.
I am not trying to start an argument either. I based my comments about accompaniment on my experiences playing this music and other types of music as well.
I do think this music sounds complete (or sufficient) without accompaniment. However, I also like to listen to it played with accompaniment but only if the accompanist understands this music and literally plays his (or her) role properly.
I would object to a tuba at a session but not pilsner or stout even though my personal preference is for various products of the Spoeztl Brewery in Texas such as Shiner Bock, Shiner Blonde, and Shiner Hefeweizen.
More and more I am starting to like playing with only ONE MELODY player at a time.... really.....where you can hear their every little nuance without it being covered by other melody players.
Not pulling anyone's leg or trying to get back at those who hate guitar players, but the real thrill of accompanying for me is in picking up those subtle nuances, slides, starts, stops, rolls whatever and catch them or approximate them on the guitar at the same moment. Hard to do when there are too many melody players blurring the subtleties, ornamenting differently etc. never mind having different settings of tunes. Of course sessions where that goes on are loads of fun too, not knocking them, but more and more I like playing with one player.
I had the pleasure of a lovely gig with a wonderful flute player this weekend and it was a real joy to be one on one with someone like that, the flute player enjoyed it too.... it was during one of those moments when we were so in sync with parts of the tune being noted together, same notes stressed etc. (I back/accompany fingerstyle but if one flatpicked this is also possible, to break into picking parts of the tunes) that the realization hit... in reverse of what's always spoken of here... one backer at a time.... but you backer/accompanists.... how do you feel one on one with a sole melody player? I love it.... it can get very, very intense, emotional almost, when you sync up with them on a real deep level and hit that kind of flow.
Camwebby, sorry to stray from your question... but whatever you are most comfy and sound best in is the right way for you. I prefer the Dropped D for backing, and DADGAD for most full tune playing, though sometimes stray into open G on a whim... my brain is trained better in DADGAD and Dropped D though, as in I don't have to stop and think about these tunings and what note livess where.
camwebby - don't worry, it's not World War III (yet ). I must admit, I find these sorts of discussions quite good value for money in the entertainment side of things!
BTW, I second Will CPT said to you above. Incidently, I use standard & drop D, but DADGAD is excellent, as well as whatever tuning works; it's really down to what the individual player does with the tuning they use...
Michael, I'm taking the michael here; yes of course things are complete in the sense that everything that's needed, is, or should be there - even with only one melody instrument playing - I was splitting hairs out of pure badness... I liked the bit about the blue cheese LOL.
The music is complete with one melody player, no others and no backing... that's for sure. But some melody players really do need a solid backer/accompanist to sound better and keep them on track at times. Well, maybe not technically "need" but a good backer can help cover their goofs and all. They can soften the screech of a not so good fiddler for example.
It's good to do both though, back and play tunes... and I feel to back/accompany well, you need to know the music to the point of being able to play melody or some melody if you wanted to. All the really good backer/accompanists I have known or heard could play melody, but there is something about the backing that grabs them and they really enjoy it more.... why... that's a whole other story that may bore all here but the backers... and I am trying to not write too much... but it's a different sort of thrill and intensity.
The idea that people accompany or back because they couldn't cut it as melody players, it's right in many cases, but dead wrong in the really good backers who make a lifelong and often very obsessive study of the music, whether guitar, piano, whatever. These are most likely the ones fauxcelt is talking about. Look at a Tony McManus... great backer, but great tune player too, Randal bays the same when he played guitar... many more examples abound.
Camwebby.... you're getting a whole different discussion!
I actually find it much harder to play effective backing guitar than to play tunes. Real backing as aposed to just playing a couple of chords takes more work. I admire any guitarist who even puts forthe a genuine effort at good backing.
Agree with Iris. You have to be able to be able to hear the cadences or changes in the tune , if not know the tune to play the lead. Each tune is a study really in my opinion, however you sometimes have the luxury of being able to adapt one backing to a similar tune.
For me dropped d is the business. Everyone plays dadgad and it it is a nice pleasant spacious sound that doesn't overpower anything, but single dropped D makes it a lot easier to stylise your backings, which is what I pursue,and you can still get a bit of drone in when you want it.
Don't listen to the antibackers. Frankie Gavin has backers, Liz
Carrol has backers. If its good enough for them.......
I also would agree with Raymond. Even with the speed limitations of playing tunes on the guitar I would find it easier a lot of the time doing that than coming up with a good backing.
Life definitely wasn't meant to be easy.
One of my best and most enjoyable "sessions" in years was when I met by chance a chap in a pub in Athlone, got chatting ... he said he was a flute player, but didn't have his flute. So I whipped out a whistle and said "No excuse", and the next half hour was pure heaven for me. Just whistle, beautifully played, and fiddle (played by me - well, you can't have everything!)
Come to think about it, the other brilliant session over the last few years was with another whistler, a good friend of mine - just me and the whistle - after which I diplomatically texted back to my girlfriend, who was not with me, that I was 'having the best day of my life'. She keeps quoting that one at me ... wonder why ...
Even so, backers can make for a change which can be fun at times ...
My personal preference is unaccompanied. The music soars when the melody is alone (and well played, of course). We're fortunate to have some friends who are really good strummers and that music is great too.
There is a very real issue here that shouldn't be lost in all the occupation of various camps and that is that the tunes come from a melodic tradition and should stand alone. I think it is the massive strength of the music and why it takes genius to produce good tunes.
There is a horrible trend in new tunes to anticipate and provide space for nice chords. Yuk!!! These tend to be very boring to hear and play. Luckily, most of these are doomed to extinction fairly quickly..Yay!!!!!!
"Luckily, most of these are doomed to extinction fairly quickly..Yay!!!!!!"
I would add, that these sorts of tunes tend to be played only by the people who composed them, and by their mates. They're generally crap tunes, and as you say Jim, natural selection will take it's course!
There are some kinds of melodic music that are ruined by adding harmony. Plainchant is one, as is a lot of Irish music (I wouldn't go as far as saying "all"). I suppose a good rule of thumb is the older the music and/or the more folk-based it is then harmony is less and less appropriate.
"melody is linear harmony"
Very good. We didn't know that.
I thought this thread was supposed to be about guitar tunings.
A lot is always said in these threads about backings, guitars
bodhrans and their pitfalls., well let me give you a view from a different angle. In my opinion nothing kills a session more than
someone, especially a fiddle player, playing solo for extended periods. Fair enough, a gypsy fiddler can pull it off with their interesting melodies , dynamics and above all good intonation,
but your average fiddler trying to play Irish Dance music has
in a a lot of cases, none of these skills except an overwhelming desire to bore everyone sh*tless .
My favourite combination is guitar , flute and banjo for Irish music. Plenty of space. You don't need fiddles.
As a point of interest and relevant to the thread Camwebby, I remember going to a Tony Mcmanus workshop once and he mentioned that whilst he used DADGAD for his fantastic fingerstyle pieces, he used Dropped D for backing when playing with the fiddler ( whose name escapes me for the moment.)
Good thoughts here... even if we're getting away from it all Camwebby! You got more than you asked for!
Ray.... You know I feel the same way. As both a tune player and backer, I just love the feel of backing more, and find it more of a challenge, more of an edge... the adrenaline rush (though am a definitely understated player, not a chord strummer except for momentarily for a stress note, then right off the chord) of not know exactly what you are going to be doing in the next second, the complete, nearly total obsessive melting into the melody player's frame of mind, mood etc. and going with it... the odd combination of being fully at the service of the tune and the player in a sense, yet carrying the tune in your head, and making your fingers do something else... I love it, more than anything really..... and no, Benhall.... your GF will never get that "best time you ever had" business unless you can get her playing too! It makes many partners quite jealous! Many marriages have broken up over the music.... they don't understand how we need it like we need air and water. They should not take it so personally!
Chuneboi Slim.... Agree... Dropped D for backing gives more versatility and shading to the music than DADGAD as a rule, though really great DADGAD players can shade pretty well.... what I mean about shading it... when the key is G it sounds like G in Dropped D, where in DADGAD, for most basic players, it sounds like the same configuration only higher up. Yet.... the key is only half the battle... each tune, yes, needs to be treated differently. Very. To do that well you really need as deep a study of the music as a melody player, and all I have learned about a real sense of backing came from listening to the really good piano backers, not most guitar players, though a few were inspirational, Martin Carthy in particular, both a brilliant backer and tune player, though much English music. Not everyone may agree with that, but it works for me.... the great piano backers/accompanists add in the subtleties, it's not all about chords... you can say, Key of D to someone... but in many tunes, the F sharp is in there too momentarily, just a passing note... to grab it on the way down to say, the A chord, as the fiddle is hitting it, for example adds more dimension. To hit that downward progression from, (I think... doing this from memory, so may have the note names wrong) the G to F# to F en route to the A minor chord like a pianist may do, for an example in Chicago Reel, the same time as the fiddle or flute, to my ear makes the backing complete. This accompaniment thing can be an exhaustive study, much to the surprise of many melody players who assume we do this because we can't play a melody instrument... I find something new literally every single time I play on even the most common session tunes... the learning curve is endless, challenging and exciting. It humbles you many times... there is so much to learn... so many tunes... in time, with lots of obsession and dedication to the music, you do start to sense repeating structures and yes, can apply them to other tunes. I have noticed though, the same goes for melody players who begin to sense similar "riffs" for lack of a better word, and makes it easier to pick up tunes on the fly and many good ones will hear a new tune and be playing along nearly instantly due to repeating structures and riffs. Nope life is not easy... but the music soothes the angst much of the time! What would we do without it!
Skerries... WHAT... I must be behind the times... anticipate and provide space for nice chords? Sacrilege. Never... The only time that would sound legal to my ear is when you do some droning as a lead in.... I wouldn't do it, keep the tunes intact, thank you. It may be a kind of performing trick though, do you think so? I like the music old style, meat and potatoes, down to earth, real, thank you.
Sorry....stopping shirt of a novella here... this will bore all but the backer/accompanists!
I love some good backing! Unless you're slagging fiddlers, in which case, you can go stick your DADGAD where the sun don't shine.
Iris, that is interesting, both about partners who don't get it, and this:
"I have noticed though, the same goes for melody players who begin to sense similar "riffs" for lack of a better word, and makes it easier to pick up tunes on the fly and many good ones will hear a new tune and be playing along nearly instantly due to repeating structures and riffs."
This was one my greatest landmarks in my progress over the past year or so. Very exciting stuff for me. Someone on here referred to it as "seeing the patterns in the music". They are individual tunes, but yes, some of them are made up of very similar building blocks.
SWFL.... absolutely will never slag a fiddler... unless they are totally obnoxious and ruining a session... and would even then restrain myself because someone more mouthy than I am will do it first! But same goes for any player, fiddle, guitar, flute, whistle and pipes, whatever.... don't hunt and peck and noodle... go home and get a grasp on it, sit and record it for practice at home.
Right... I hate the word riffs for ITM... patterns is the logical choice of wording, thanks for that. What is amazing is what can be done with just seven notes and the sharps and flats between, how we can get zillions of different tunes out. Has anyone ever done the math on exactly how many possibilities there would be for the number of tunes, say with just a part A and a part B? Could be amusing.
I see the patterns, and see them still more and more all the time... I think I'm a runny egg still though... not done yet! It's when players, and maybe esp. backers, think they are "done" learning that doom comes to their playing. Some may stop at two chords in each key, some at three, some at a way more advanced level, yet they stop.... the joy for me in large part is in the discovery of more nuances, patterns etc. Lately I like doing the slides the same time a fiddle does, little challenges like that are part of the fun of it all. The tunes themselves and the various playing styles of melody players are the best teachers for backing, not what a book says about music theory, or a chord chart. That is maybe useful up to a point to get the mechanics down a bit, but then you need to listen to the music.
And as for spouses, partners, whatever.... it's like a part of you they are shut out of, not even on purpose. They don't have to be shut out though. They don't have to play, some love the music and tag along and socialize at the bar or a party, some have the attitude "whatever keeps them happy", and others, too many seem to be as jealous of it as though the spouse was unfaithful. There really is a special connection when two musicians or more are really cooking, like a brain lock, the way you connect, and yup Benhall... it can be the best time ever! The ideal is two people who can play together and really enjoy it, duos like Joe & Antoinette McKenna, Willie & Siobhan Kelly. Even in some cases where both play, there is trouble if one hooks up, say for gigs, with someone else. It's almost worse than one not playing at all sometimes.
Well, my dogs enjoy when I play anyway, LOL! No complaints there!
Irisnevins, just to clarify. I was referring to new tunes that are perfectly intact and functional as reels or whatever but built with the accompaniment in mind (A bit like a solo singer who is hearing the chords mentally while singing.) The correct approach, if I may be so definitive, is to build a tune that works alone and then let the strummers or bangers meet the challenge of finding chords or counters that work with it.
The internal music of the intervals in the melody line is what's wonderful about all this and the rest can be great but takes second place.
BTW, someone mentioned Frankie Gavin and Liz Carroll using backers. That's just showbiz and an acknowledgement that this is specialist music that has to be make palatable to casual listeners. We heard Frankie G recently in the Seamus Ennis centre playing solo solo and it was so good! When Liz Carroll played the same venue the music was great but a lot of people wished that she had played solo solo!
SWFL.... some fiddlers I'd rather hear solo too at least sometimes, like Martin Hayes, other instruments like concertina at times too... some players are just so darned jaw dropping great. And solo singers too if great!
God - this just makes me happy that there are different types of sessions that you can choose to play in. I hate all the talk of, the pure tradition and modern tunes going extinct blah blah. Its boring and done to death - just like some of those old crap tunes that keep coming up and being slaughtered time and time and time again.
I mean really, do you know what would make me happy in a session? If every single person who played trad just got an insy bit of cop on. And maybe even put some effort into learning how to play. Though I'm not holding my breath.
And I love a good backer - and am not just a 'casual listener' Amazing!
And you know what? This is amazing too - some of the best musicians I have ever heard in my life also love good backing.....Oh....My.....God!!! I just cant believe it! That is just too amazing - imagine.
Also really good tune players who obviously have no clue about the tradition...I mean - but how did they get so good then? Oh my god. Maybe they are mutant tune players. Oh no - now I am scared.
I agree with you, Iris. Once you think you are done learning you are done... "done in" that is. I was practicing before work today and learning some new pieces and it was VERY frustrating. I definitely muddled through a good bit of my practice session but after all was said and done I felt good about it. I've seen some good musicians stagnate and fizzle out because they kept on playing the same old thing and stopped trying to push forward.
Ray... keep at it, practice makes perfect they say.... well we try anyway.
Don't feel bad, I was struggling with the harp a good part of the day.... blew off everything I "should" have been doing, including working, and just played The Hare's Paw about seven million times and still don't have it right, LOL....but it IS a little better. I think I am officially at the three month mark today with the harp, yet am beating myself up for not playing like Grainne Hambly....!!
Just needed a mental health day for various reasons, which for the obsessive people here usually means driving oneself into a total frenzy repeating the same tune endlessly....some mental health day!
Iris... obsessive is a somewhat good trait for a musician if it keeps us practicing, LOL. Funny thing is after mastering some of El's arrangements for fingerstyle tunes I find myself getting messed up on single note melodies. When I went to the Fleadgh in Pearl River this weekend it dawned on me that my 12 year old niece and most of the other kids were all really good melody players... I got some work to do.
"And I love a good backer - and am not just a 'casual listener' Amazing!
And you know what? This is amazing too - some of the best musicians I have ever heard in my life also love good backing.....Oh....My.....God!!! I just cant believe it! That is just too amazing - imagine.
Also really good tune players who obviously have no clue about the tradition...I mean - but how did they get so good then? Oh my god. Maybe they are mutant tune players. Oh no - now I am scared."
My gosh, how sensitive! :
There is no conflict with any of this. The point is that while Martin Hayes, Frankie Gavin and Liz Carroll all love the backing (presumably) they simply wouldn't find it easy to make a living playing without it. Please don't tell me that you think there is a mass audience for solo players doing really good tunes! The level of interest in Ireland alone is abysmal by these measures. Traditional music itself is very buoyant and active but with a very small (population-wise) fan base.
So... basing a claim that backing is an essential part of all this on the commercial activities of professional musicians is not a sound argument. The personal preference angle is completely valid.
And there was supposed to be a smiley after "My gosh, how sensitive!", i.e. good-natured banter not sarky remark. That's it, TTFN and keep playing good music according to your own personal preferences.
And don't forget about the Skerries Traditional Music Weekend in the middle of May.
And don't forget about the Cuckoo Fleadh in Kinvara on the May holiday weekend.
Iris, just for the sake of curiosity, if we use 13 notes (D to b) for a 32 bar reel (128 crotchets) the number of possibilities is 13^128 = 3.84*10^142, which is an incredibly huge number. The number of atoms in the universe has been estimated in 10^82.
So, there is still place for new compositions, IMO.
Irisnevins, when you mention the really good backers who make a lifelong and obsessive study of this music, yes that is the type of musician I am referring to. Speaking as a piano player, I am perfectly capable of playing lead but I don't need to do it because our local session has some perfectly capable lead players. I agree with the rest of your comments on this thread.
SWFL Fiddler, I like and agree with what you had to say also.
Before the local Irish Sessions began in 1995, I had already earned a bachelor's degree in music from the University of Absolutely Last Resort (UALR actually stands for University of Arkansas at Little Rock) which meant that I had a solid, fundamental "classical" background and training when I began playing piano at the Irish Sessions. In order to earn my degree, I had to accompany voice majors during their lessons as well as taking several semesters of music theory. Yes, this training has helped me be a better backup musician at the local Irish Session. I have used my music theory training to analyze some of the tunes we play and I have gotten some interesting results--especially in some of the patterns which I have found. I seldom use my music theory training when I decide what chords I am going to play. I just try to choose a chord that doesn't clash with whatever the fiddle or flute or box player is playing.
Fauxcelt... that's what it comes down to, not to clash.... and when someone clashes in this music, people are only too happy to let them know, backer or fiddler or whatever!
Yes, as I have said so before in a previous post, you are supposed to be at the session to make the organized noise called music with instead of against the other musicians at the session.
I cannot believe that this thread has gone on so long without someone pointing out to camwebby that neither DADGAD or open tuning are the answer, that the true key to guitar playing is to tune your guitar to EADGBE, the one true tuning, apostolic and universal, whose holy faith let us now declare!!!!
Yes Al. How tragically true. If only one had the courage to tune that bottom string up . Six million Spaniards can't be wrong.
Django tuned to double dropped D one night and got ran out
of the caravan park.
Whoever thought of EADGBE in the first place was a genius/genii.
Amen! Brother AlBrown! Are you a member of the Partially (or Half) Full Gospel Guitar Church? Also, what happens if you write the tuning order of the guitar strings backwards--from top to bottom like this: EBGDAE? If you actually meant "alcoholic" (to quote lazyhound's comment), I will gladly drink to that with some Shiner Bock.
Backing
Backing
Hi all - what would you recommend as the best tuning for backing Irish trad on guitar?
I currently do it in DADGAD but someone at a session the other suggested I use open tuning instead as DADGAD wasn't right.
Opinions?
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by camwebby
Re: Backing
Camwebby - who on earth said 'it wasnt right' I'd take everything you hear in the sydney scene with a pinch of salt, not trying to get into a fight here, but there is alot of dead wood around and only few people who actually know anything about backing!
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Backing
Also - it really depends on what style you prefer...its not about 'wrong' or 'right'.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Backing
DAGAD works just fine as does Dropped D (standard tuning with your low E string tuned down to D). bb is correct, no right or wrong involved here it's all about finding your own voice wether it be in DADGAD, Dropped D, or for that matter Standard tuning.
I'm in similar shoes but the journey is fun. Best to you!
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Backing
thanks for your help guys - bb - I was sure that it was pretty common and acceptable.. thanks.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by camwebby
Re: Backing
better than acceptable - though that is my just my own humble opinion!
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Backing
i would take with a kilo of salt anything offered to you at a session as "right or wrong" DADGAD is fine, possibly even "standard" at many sessions. Tuning is actually a matter of personal preference - no where near as important as "hearing" the tune you are backing.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by geoffmc
Re: Backing
We need our backers!
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Backing
Don't play a guitar at all, play a 'zouk.
I haven't taken my guitar to an ITM session for 2 & 1/2 years, at least; more than one is superfluous, the close tuning muddies up the harmonies, they don't project so well if you want to play a tune......
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Backing
"We need our backers!"
???? For what?
Jim
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by skerries
Re: Backing
Because this music sounds better when it is properly accompanied.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backing
'Because this music sounds better when it is properly accompanied.'
Definitely not!
The music always sounds best without any accompaniment whatsoever.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Backing
Personal preferences, fauxcelt and MacCruiskeen. That's all.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by grego
Re: Backing
I find the best accompaniment to this music to be stout, but a nice pilsner goes well also.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Backing
pilsner - good grief! That's like bringing a tuba to a session.
But, again, personal preferences, personal preferences...
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by grego
Re: Backing
I like a bit of stumming. But strummers must always always be aware that the music is complete without them
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backing
It's still complete when you take away all but one melody instrument.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by grego
Re: Backing
Yep, that's right. To say that, "this music sounds better when it is properly accompanied" is so spectaculally 180 degrees wrong.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backing
It all depends who is listening to it.
"Complete" means that everything necessary is there for there to be a valid tune, even if it's just one whistle. It might sound better to me if you added a fiddle, or even better still if there was a flute. To fauxcelt, it will sound even better still when proper accompaniment is added, though MacCruiskeen will be disappointed.
Scrambled eggs are better when the right amount of Tabasco is added. My teenage son says that statement is 180 degrees wrong, but that's just because he's a teenager.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by grego
Re: Backing
"Complete" does not mean that everything necessary is there for there to be a valid tune. It simply means that "everything is there".
However, I must admit to the existence of personal preference. If any one thinks that the music sounds better when it is properly accompanied, then that is merely their preference for flavouring. They can think what they like. But they must never ever think that it is incomplete without the flavouring.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backing
"Complete" is, in my opinion, the wrong word; sufficient - is better. But then again, I've not heard anyone being called a sufficient eejit!
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Backing
"The music always sounds best without any accompaniment whatsoever."
is equally as wrong as
"Because this music sounds better when it is properly accompanied."
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by BegF
Re: Backing
"right -wrong. best, better, worse"!!! . keep going to sessions and you'll discover how meaningless this all really is. If the music hits the mark - consider yorself blessed and enjoy it - who or what is playing is irelevant
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by geoffmc
Re: Backing
I didn't want to start an argument.......
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by camwebby
Re: Backing
Not your fault, camwebby. It's the nature of human beans and chat forums.
But all you really need to know is that there is no "best" guitar tuning for playing this music. Use whatever tuning(s) suit you and sound good to you.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Backing
Sorry Ron, but "complete" really is the right word. All the sound necessary can be found in the tunes played by a fiddle, flute, whistle or pipes.
Scrambled egg is what it is. I like a bit of blue cheese in mine. Or depending on my mood, spring onions, mushrooms, anchovies, bacon, garlic. But scrambled egg is what it is. It's egg. It's irrelevant that you may think that egg is "sufficient" or not. Scrambled egg is what it is.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backing
Whether or not a tune should be accompanied depends on who is playing it and what they are playing. One of the best versions of "Mairi's Wedding" which I heard many years ago was performed by just a flute and a bodhran. I have also heard a solo version of this tune on flute which I liked.
I am not trying to start an argument either. I based my comments about accompaniment on my experiences playing this music and other types of music as well.
I do think this music sounds complete (or sufficient) without accompaniment. However, I also like to listen to it played with accompaniment but only if the accompanist understands this music and literally plays his (or her) role properly.
I would object to a tuba at a session but not pilsner or stout even though my personal preference is for various products of the Spoeztl Brewery in Texas such as Shiner Bock, Shiner Blonde, and Shiner Hefeweizen.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backing
More and more I am starting to like playing with only ONE MELODY player at a time.... really.....where you can hear their every little nuance without it being covered by other melody players.
Not pulling anyone's leg or trying to get back at those who hate guitar players, but the real thrill of accompanying for me is in picking up those subtle nuances, slides, starts, stops, rolls whatever and catch them or approximate them on the guitar at the same moment. Hard to do when there are too many melody players blurring the subtleties, ornamenting differently etc. never mind having different settings of tunes. Of course sessions where that goes on are loads of fun too, not knocking them, but more and more I like playing with one player.
I had the pleasure of a lovely gig with a wonderful flute player this weekend and it was a real joy to be one on one with someone like that, the flute player enjoyed it too.... it was during one of those moments when we were so in sync with parts of the tune being noted together, same notes stressed etc. (I back/accompany fingerstyle but if one flatpicked this is also possible, to break into picking parts of the tunes) that the realization hit... in reverse of what's always spoken of here... one backer at a time.... but you backer/accompanists.... how do you feel one on one with a sole melody player? I love it.... it can get very, very intense, emotional almost, when you sync up with them on a real deep level and hit that kind of flow.
Camwebby, sorry to stray from your question... but whatever you are most comfy and sound best in is the right way for you. I prefer the Dropped D for backing, and DADGAD for most full tune playing, though sometimes stray into open G on a whim... my brain is trained better in DADGAD and Dropped D though, as in I don't have to stop and think about these tunings and what note livess where.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing
camwebby - don't worry, it's not World War III (yet
). I must admit, I find these sorts of discussions quite good value for money in the entertainment side of things!
BTW, I second Will CPT said to you above. Incidently, I use standard & drop D, but DADGAD is excellent, as well as whatever tuning works; it's really down to what the individual player does with the tuning they use...
Michael, I'm taking the michael here; yes of course things are complete in the sense that everything that's needed, is, or should be there - even with only one melody instrument playing - I was splitting hairs out of pure badness... I liked the bit about the blue cheese LOL.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Backing
The music is complete with one melody player, no others and no backing... that's for sure. But some melody players really do need a solid backer/accompanist to sound better and keep them on track at times. Well, maybe not technically "need" but a good backer can help cover their goofs and all. They can soften the screech of a not so good fiddler for example.
It's good to do both though, back and play tunes... and I feel to back/accompany well, you need to know the music to the point of being able to play melody or some melody if you wanted to. All the really good backer/accompanists I have known or heard could play melody, but there is something about the backing that grabs them and they really enjoy it more.... why... that's a whole other story that may bore all here but the backers... and I am trying to not write too much... but it's a different sort of thrill and intensity.
The idea that people accompany or back because they couldn't cut it as melody players, it's right in many cases, but dead wrong in the really good backers who make a lifelong and often very obsessive study of the music, whether guitar, piano, whatever. These are most likely the ones fauxcelt is talking about. Look at a Tony McManus... great backer, but great tune player too, Randal bays the same when he played guitar... many more examples abound.
Camwebby.... you're getting a whole different discussion!
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing
I actually find it much harder to play effective backing guitar than to play tunes. Real backing as aposed to just playing a couple of chords takes more work. I admire any guitarist who even puts forthe a genuine effort at good backing.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Backing
Agree with Iris. You have to be able to be able to hear the cadences or changes in the tune , if not know the tune to play the lead. Each tune is a study really in my opinion, however you sometimes have the luxury of being able to adapt one backing to a similar tune.
For me dropped d is the business. Everyone plays dadgad and it it is a nice pleasant spacious sound that doesn't overpower anything, but single dropped D makes it a lot easier to stylise your backings, which is what I pursue,and you can still get a bit of drone in when you want it.
Don't listen to the antibackers. Frankie Gavin has backers, Liz
Carrol has backers. If its good enough for them.......
I also would agree with Raymond. Even with the speed limitations of playing tunes on the guitar I would find it easier a lot of the time doing that than coming up with a good backing.
Life definitely wasn't meant to be easy.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Backing
One of my best and most enjoyable "sessions" in years was when I met by chance a chap in a pub in Athlone, got chatting ... he said he was a flute player, but didn't have his flute. So I whipped out a whistle and said "No excuse", and the next half hour was pure heaven for me. Just whistle, beautifully played, and fiddle (played by me - well, you can't have everything!)
Come to think about it, the other brilliant session over the last few years was with another whistler, a good friend of mine - just me and the whistle - after which I diplomatically texted back to my girlfriend, who was not with me, that I was 'having the best day of my life'. She keeps quoting that one at me ... wonder why ...
Even so, backers can make for a change which can be fun at times ...
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Backing
My personal preference is unaccompanied. The music soars when the melody is alone (and well played, of course). We're fortunate to have some friends who are really good strummers and that music is great too.
There is a very real issue here that shouldn't be lost in all the occupation of various camps and that is that the tunes come from a melodic tradition and should stand alone. I think it is the massive strength of the music and why it takes genius to produce good tunes.
There is a horrible trend in new tunes to anticipate and provide space for nice chords. Yuk!!! These tend to be very boring to hear and play. Luckily, most of these are doomed to extinction fairly quickly..Yay!!!!!!
Jim
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by skerries
Re: Backing
good post
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backing
"Luckily, most of these are doomed to extinction fairly quickly..Yay!!!!!!"
I would add, that these sorts of tunes tend to be played only by the people who composed them, and by their mates. They're generally crap tunes, and as you say Jim, natural selection will take it's course!
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Backing
Melody without harmony is unfinished music.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Backing
melody is linear harmony
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backing
There are some kinds of melodic music that are ruined by adding harmony. Plainchant is one, as is a lot of Irish music (I wouldn't go as far as saying "all"). I suppose a good rule of thumb is the older the music and/or the more folk-based it is then harmony is less and less appropriate.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Backing
"melody is linear harmony"
Very good. We didn't know that.
I thought this thread was supposed to be about guitar tunings.
A lot is always said in these threads about backings, guitars
bodhrans and their pitfalls., well let me give you a view from a different angle. In my opinion nothing kills a session more than
someone, especially a fiddle player, playing solo for extended periods. Fair enough, a gypsy fiddler can pull it off with their interesting melodies , dynamics and above all good intonation,
but your average fiddler trying to play Irish Dance music has
in a a lot of cases, none of these skills except an overwhelming desire to bore everyone sh*tless .
My favourite combination is guitar , flute and banjo for Irish music. Plenty of space. You don't need fiddles.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Backing
"Melody without harmony is unfinished music. "
I hope you don't mean this! Indian classical music and ghazal? Middle Eastern art music?
Jim
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by skerries
Re: Backing
As a point of interest and relevant to the thread Camwebby, I remember going to a Tony Mcmanus workshop once and he mentioned that whilst he used DADGAD for his fantastic fingerstyle pieces, he used Dropped D for backing when playing with the fiddler ( whose name escapes me for the moment.)
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Backing
Good thoughts here... even if we're getting away from it all Camwebby! You got more than you asked for!
Ray.... You know I feel the same way. As both a tune player and backer, I just love the feel of backing more, and find it more of a challenge, more of an edge... the adrenaline rush (though am a definitely understated player, not a chord strummer except for momentarily for a stress note, then right off the chord) of not know exactly what you are going to be doing in the next second, the complete, nearly total obsessive melting into the melody player's frame of mind, mood etc. and going with it... the odd combination of being fully at the service of the tune and the player in a sense, yet carrying the tune in your head, and making your fingers do something else... I love it, more than anything really..... and no, Benhall.... your GF will never get that "best time you ever had" business unless you can get her playing too! It makes many partners quite jealous! Many marriages have broken up over the music.... they don't understand how we need it like we need air and water. They should not take it so personally!
Chuneboi Slim.... Agree... Dropped D for backing gives more versatility and shading to the music than DADGAD as a rule, though really great DADGAD players can shade pretty well.... what I mean about shading it... when the key is G it sounds like G in Dropped D, where in DADGAD, for most basic players, it sounds like the same configuration only higher up. Yet.... the key is only half the battle... each tune, yes, needs to be treated differently. Very. To do that well you really need as deep a study of the music as a melody player, and all I have learned about a real sense of backing came from listening to the really good piano backers, not most guitar players, though a few were inspirational, Martin Carthy in particular, both a brilliant backer and tune player, though much English music. Not everyone may agree with that, but it works for me.... the great piano backers/accompanists add in the subtleties, it's not all about chords... you can say, Key of D to someone... but in many tunes, the F sharp is in there too momentarily, just a passing note... to grab it on the way down to say, the A chord, as the fiddle is hitting it, for example adds more dimension. To hit that downward progression from, (I think... doing this from memory, so may have the note names wrong) the G to F# to F en route to the A minor chord like a pianist may do, for an example in Chicago Reel, the same time as the fiddle or flute, to my ear makes the backing complete. This accompaniment thing can be an exhaustive study, much to the surprise of many melody players who assume we do this because we can't play a melody instrument... I find something new literally every single time I play on even the most common session tunes... the learning curve is endless, challenging and exciting. It humbles you many times... there is so much to learn... so many tunes... in time, with lots of obsession and dedication to the music, you do start to sense repeating structures and yes, can apply them to other tunes. I have noticed though, the same goes for melody players who begin to sense similar "riffs" for lack of a better word, and makes it easier to pick up tunes on the fly and many good ones will hear a new tune and be playing along nearly instantly due to repeating structures and riffs. Nope life is not easy... but the music soothes the angst much of the time! What would we do without it!
Skerries... WHAT... I must be behind the times... anticipate and provide space for nice chords? Sacrilege. Never... The only time that would sound legal to my ear is when you do some droning as a lead in.... I wouldn't do it, keep the tunes intact, thank you. It may be a kind of performing trick though, do you think so? I like the music old style, meat and potatoes, down to earth, real, thank you.
Sorry....stopping shirt of a novella here... this will bore all but the backer/accompanists!
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing
I love some good backing! Unless you're slagging fiddlers, in which case, you can go stick your DADGAD where the sun don't shine.
Iris, that is interesting, both about partners who don't get it, and this:
"I have noticed though, the same goes for melody players who begin to sense similar "riffs" for lack of a better word, and makes it easier to pick up tunes on the fly and many good ones will hear a new tune and be playing along nearly instantly due to repeating structures and riffs."
This was one my greatest landmarks in my progress over the past year or so. Very exciting stuff for me. Someone on here referred to it as "seeing the patterns in the music". They are individual tunes, but yes, some of them are made up of very similar building blocks.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Backing
SWFL.... absolutely will never slag a fiddler... unless they are totally obnoxious and ruining a session... and would even then restrain myself because someone more mouthy than I am will do it first! But same goes for any player, fiddle, guitar, flute, whistle and pipes, whatever.... don't hunt and peck and noodle... go home and get a grasp on it, sit and record it for practice at home.
Right... I hate the word riffs for ITM... patterns is the logical choice of wording, thanks for that. What is amazing is what can be done with just seven notes and the sharps and flats between, how we can get zillions of different tunes out. Has anyone ever done the math on exactly how many possibilities there would be for the number of tunes, say with just a part A and a part B? Could be amusing.
I see the patterns, and see them still more and more all the time... I think I'm a runny egg still though... not done yet! It's when players, and maybe esp. backers, think they are "done" learning that doom comes to their playing. Some may stop at two chords in each key, some at three, some at a way more advanced level, yet they stop.... the joy for me in large part is in the discovery of more nuances, patterns etc. Lately I like doing the slides the same time a fiddle does, little challenges like that are part of the fun of it all. The tunes themselves and the various playing styles of melody players are the best teachers for backing, not what a book says about music theory, or a chord chart. That is maybe useful up to a point to get the mechanics down a bit, but then you need to listen to the music.
And as for spouses, partners, whatever.... it's like a part of you they are shut out of, not even on purpose. They don't have to be shut out though. They don't have to play, some love the music and tag along and socialize at the bar or a party, some have the attitude "whatever keeps them happy", and others, too many seem to be as jealous of it as though the spouse was unfaithful. There really is a special connection when two musicians or more are really cooking, like a brain lock, the way you connect, and yup Benhall... it can be the best time ever! The ideal is two people who can play together and really enjoy it, duos like Joe & Antoinette McKenna, Willie & Siobhan Kelly. Even in some cases where both play, there is trouble if one hooks up, say for gigs, with someone else. It's almost worse than one not playing at all sometimes.
Well, my dogs enjoy when I play anyway, LOL! No complaints there!
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing
Hi,
Irisnevins, just to clarify. I was referring to new tunes that are perfectly intact and functional as reels or whatever but built with the accompaniment in mind (A bit like a solo singer who is hearing the chords mentally while singing.) The correct approach, if I may be so definitive, is to build a tune that works alone and then let the strummers or bangers meet the challenge of finding chords or counters that work with it.
The internal music of the intervals in the melody line is what's wonderful about all this and the rest can be great but takes second place.
BTW, someone mentioned Frankie Gavin and Liz Carroll using backers. That's just showbiz and an acknowledgement that this is specialist music that has to be make palatable to casual listeners. We heard Frankie G recently in the Seamus Ennis centre playing solo solo and it was so good! When Liz Carroll played the same venue the music was great but a lot of people wished that she had played solo solo!
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by skerries
Re: Backing
Good stuff Iris! "Never stop learning!"
...and doggies. I have cats, but same theory.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Backing
SWFL.... some fiddlers I'd rather hear solo too at least sometimes, like Martin Hayes, other instruments like concertina at times too... some players are just so darned jaw dropping great. And solo singers too if great!
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing
God - this just makes me happy that there are different types of sessions that you can choose to play in. I hate all the talk of, the pure tradition and modern tunes going extinct blah blah. Its boring and done to death - just like some of those old crap tunes that keep coming up and being slaughtered time and time and time again.
I mean really, do you know what would make me happy in a session? If every single person who played trad just got an insy bit of cop on. And maybe even put some effort into learning how to play. Though I'm not holding my breath.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Backing
And I love a good backer - and am not just a 'casual listener' Amazing!
And you know what? This is amazing too - some of the best musicians I have ever heard in my life also love good backing.....Oh....My.....God!!! I just cant believe it! That is just too amazing - imagine.
Also really good tune players who obviously have no clue about the tradition...I mean - but how did they get so good then? Oh my god. Maybe they are mutant tune players. Oh no - now I am scared.
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Backing
"specialist music that needs to be made palatable for the casual listener"
if that - god forbid - is true then i'm suddenly losing interest! back to rock and roll for me!
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by geoffmc
Re: Backing
I agree with you, Iris. Once you think you are done learning you are done... "done in" that is. I was practicing before work today and learning some new pieces and it was VERY frustrating. I definitely muddled through a good bit of my practice session but after all was said and done I felt good about it. I've seen some good musicians stagnate and fizzle out because they kept on playing the same old thing and stopped trying to push forward.
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Backing
Ray... keep at it, practice makes perfect they say.... well we try anyway.
Don't feel bad, I was struggling with the harp a good part of the day.... blew off everything I "should" have been doing, including working, and just played The Hare's Paw about seven million times and still don't have it right, LOL....but it IS a little better. I think I am officially at the three month mark today with the harp, yet am beating myself up for not playing like Grainne Hambly....!!
Just needed a mental health day for various reasons, which for the obsessive people here usually means driving oneself into a total frenzy repeating the same tune endlessly....some mental health day!
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing
Iris... obsessive is a somewhat good trait for a musician if it keeps us practicing, LOL. Funny thing is after mastering some of El's arrangements for fingerstyle tunes I find myself getting messed up on single note melodies. When I went to the Fleadgh in Pearl River this weekend it dawned on me that my 12 year old niece and most of the other kids were all really good melody players... I got some work to do.
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Backing
"And I love a good backer - and am not just a 'casual listener' Amazing!
And you know what? This is amazing too - some of the best musicians I have ever heard in my life also love good backing.....Oh....My.....God!!! I just cant believe it! That is just too amazing - imagine.
Also really good tune players who obviously have no clue about the tradition...I mean - but how did they get so good then? Oh my god. Maybe they are mutant tune players. Oh no - now I am scared."
My gosh, how sensitive! :
There is no conflict with any of this. The point is that while Martin Hayes, Frankie Gavin and Liz Carroll all love the backing (presumably) they simply wouldn't find it easy to make a living playing without it. Please don't tell me that you think there is a mass audience for solo players doing really good tunes! The level of interest in Ireland alone is abysmal by these measures. Traditional music itself is very buoyant and active but with a very small (population-wise) fan base.
So... basing a claim that backing is an essential part of all this on the commercial activities of professional musicians is not a sound argument. The personal preference angle is completely valid.
Jim
Jim
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by skerries
Re: Backing
Oh, no! I sound like a typical regular contributor now. I had better desist for a long while.
Jim
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by skerries
Re: Backing
And there was supposed to be a smiley after "My gosh, how sensitive!", i.e. good-natured banter not sarky remark. That's it, TTFN and keep playing good music according to your own personal preferences.
And don't forget about the Skerries Traditional Music Weekend in the middle of May.
And don't forget about the Cuckoo Fleadh in Kinvara on the May holiday weekend.
Jim
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by skerries
Re: Backing
Hi, Colm!
Jim
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by skerries
Re: Backing
Iris, just for the sake of curiosity, if we use 13 notes (D to b) for a 32 bar reel (128 crotchets) the number of possibilities is 13^128 = 3.84*10^142, which is an incredibly huge number. The number of atoms in the universe has been estimated in 10^82.
So, there is still place for new compositions, IMO.
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by Ramiro
Re: Backing
Irisnevins, when you mention the really good backers who make a lifelong and obsessive study of this music, yes that is the type of musician I am referring to. Speaking as a piano player, I am perfectly capable of playing lead but I don't need to do it because our local session has some perfectly capable lead players. I agree with the rest of your comments on this thread.
SWFL Fiddler, I like and agree with what you had to say also.
Before the local Irish Sessions began in 1995, I had already earned a bachelor's degree in music from the University of Absolutely Last Resort (UALR actually stands for University of Arkansas at Little Rock) which meant that I had a solid, fundamental "classical" background and training when I began playing piano at the Irish Sessions. In order to earn my degree, I had to accompany voice majors during their lessons as well as taking several semesters of music theory. Yes, this training has helped me be a better backup musician at the local Irish Session. I have used my music theory training to analyze some of the tunes we play and I have gotten some interesting results--especially in some of the patterns which I have found. I seldom use my music theory training when I decide what chords I am going to play. I just try to choose a chord that doesn't clash with whatever the fiddle or flute or box player is playing.
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backing
Ramiro... I am so relieved, LOL!
Fauxcelt... that's what it comes down to, not to clash.... and when someone clashes in this music, people are only too happy to let them know, backer or fiddler or whatever!
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing
Yes, as I have said so before in a previous post, you are supposed to be at the session to make the organized noise called music with instead of against the other musicians at the session.
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backing
I cannot believe that this thread has gone on so long without someone pointing out to camwebby that neither DADGAD or open tuning are the answer, that the true key to guitar playing is to tune your guitar to EADGBE, the one true tuning, apostolic and universal, whose holy faith let us now declare!!!!
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by AlBrown
Re: Backing
"Apostolic"? Don't you mean "alcoholic"?
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Backing
Yes Al. How tragically true. If only one had the courage to tune that bottom string up . Six million Spaniards can't be wrong.
Django tuned to double dropped D one night and got ran out
of the caravan park.
Whoever thought of EADGBE in the first place was a genius/genii.
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Backing
Hi Al.... But I LOVE Dropped D for backing, will you forgive me? Just that low D drone.... mmmmm......
# Posted on April 17th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backing
Amen! Brother AlBrown! Are you a member of the Partially (or Half) Full Gospel Guitar Church? Also, what happens if you write the tuning order of the guitar strings backwards--from top to bottom like this: EBGDAE? If you actually meant "alcoholic" (to quote lazyhound's comment), I will gladly drink to that with some Shiner Bock.
# Posted on April 18th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backing
Hmm - I sounded really sensitive and stuff - I wasnt meaning to, I was meaning to sound completely sarcastic.
# Posted on April 20th 2008 by bb Cruella de vil
Re: Backing
Yes, "bb", they are mutants and they are hiding amongst us "normal" musicians in disguise until they day they come out of hiding and take over.
# Posted on April 21st 2008 by fauxcelt