Here is a question for my fellow flute players, and I suppose it could include whistlers, too.
When playing G reels, such as Miss McLeods and Rossmere Jetty
(which I'm working on now), do you use the standard fingering for C (OXXOOO) each time the note occurs, or do you ever cheat and raise all fingers if the C is buried amid a flurry of eighth notes?
Of course, it then becomes a C#, and one must weigh intonation with ease of playing,whenever C precedes or follows a B. On my flute, the C# is a bit flat, so I can sometimes "get away with it."
I'm learning whistle (since July last year) and I never cheat. I mean it. It would sound wrong to me. OXX OOO for lower octave; OXO OOO for upper octave works for me, though most of the time, if you do have a 'c' in the upper octave on whistle, which is rare, you can half-hole it.
I don't know Rossmere Jetty, but in Miss McLeods I always play C nat (OXX OOO), it seems not very difficult in this tune (speed = 120 bpm). Although C# does probably not really "hurt" if you play fast and especially if you play with other instruments.
Thanks for the clue, I will try to cheat next time
I've just re-looked at those two tunes. The Cnats are OK in those, aren't they? Now, for a challenge, try the one I've just picked up and, I admit, am just struggling a teensy weensy bit with:
I usually do not cheat on that C nat, the only thing that bothers me is the (3Bcd triplet in reels that require Cnat, it sometimes is just plain boring to leave that one out, but at doubled speed, i don't always go for the cross fingering, and right now I can't half hole that at the given speed:(.
That way I somtimes make that C-Part of Greigs Pipes a little D-majorish: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/605
Another example would be the Sligo Maid, but there this trick has at least found its way into the playing of the poster on this site too http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/399
I think that "(3Bcd triplet" you mention is just a knack. It helps if you leave the third finger of your right hand (or bottom hand, anyway) on the hole. Then, all you have to do is get the move from B to c right and the d just plonks itself in there more or less automatically.
Although a whistle not a flute player, I think c# in Miss Mcleod's actually sounds good and gives it a bit more interest, just near the end of the A part.
I presume you do that becuase you choose to, though, maxF? I think it's right that, in the right hands and in the right places, deliberately putting in a c# is good. But you've got to be able to do the cnat when necessary.
Just learn to play properly and stop seeking support for playing the wrong note to avoid your current problems. If you practice you'll get it in no time.
Yes, maxF, I didn't mean to imply that you, personally, couldn't do it. I just wanted to highlight that it should be a choice, not just done for ease ...
This is a another fingering for the Bcd triplet, that I was shown by piper and whistle player, Michael Falsey:
XOO XXX
OXO XXX
OXX XXX
- Having the three bottom holes closed has negligible effect on the B on most whistles.
-The C-natural fingering is a little sharp on some whistles (although is spot-on on Tony Dixon whistles), but not enough to matter in the middle of a triplet.
-There is no need to close the top hole for a high D on most whistles.
This fingering requires very little movement, as the RH fingers stay in position throughout, and it gives just as much 'pop', I think, as Michael's fingering..
Another fingering that works well is:
XOOXOX
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
The OXXXOX fingering gives, to my ear, the most in tune C natural on Generation (and many other) whistles.
Ah well, this thread made me think so much about that triplet that i sorted it out, have to agree about that staccato pop there. Really if you've got a problem with the the C nat in a phrase, practise that phrase until the problem dissapears, from time to time you will encounter awkward phrases, until you already know most of them, and as said before, there is hardly an instance where it really won't go unnoticed, even if your neighbour couldn't make out that it was that C sharp that made the difference, he will have the feel that you're doing something differently/wrong.
benhall.1: "OXO OOO for upper octave works for me, though most of the time, if you do have a 'c' in the upper octave on whistle, which is rare, you can half-hole it."
I find OXX XXO gives the most reliable upper octave C natural on the whistle. Also, you can slide up to it from the B by sliding your finger off the top hole - XXX XXO gives you a B when you hit the 3rd harmonic (which takes a strong initial puff, but no more than you'd need anyway to hit top C).
....Furthermore, you can jump up to top D just by closing the bottom hole. This gives a more reliable 3rd octave D than closing all holes as, with all holes closed there is a risk of hitting the 3rd harmonic (as opposed to the 3rd *octave*, which is actually the 4th harmonic), an octave-and-a-fifth above bottom D (i.e. high A), if you don't provide enough attack.
One note which I often _do_ "fudge" is the Gsharp in a lot of transcribed Scottish pieces in "A", but actually in the bagpipe scale. It makes for two different feels to the music to play either properly in A as most fiddlers do, or to play properly in the bagpipe scale of two sharps, base note A. And the lower G should never be a G sharp in this situation anyway.
And sometimes if the note is a G# on a weak note (e.g 4th quaver of a reel) e.g. in Margaree reel, second part second bar | abagNAT fdfg# | abaf... I find that a judicious slide up from f over the G to A can produce a nice effect.
And by the way, I can play a passably good half.holed G# and I do also have the option of a G# key on some of my flutes... So decisions of this nature are not laziness for me.
I also have a version of Calum Crubach written out with one sharp, but also obviously a Pipe tune originally. Here the Cs are all either natural in the middle of a bcd triplet or sharp everywhere else. And in this case, I really wouldn't regard it as cheating to play either in the triplets, or even some other construct altogether.
And James Scott Skinner's sheet music for Tullochgorum with variations seems to have an awful lot of questionable decisions to be made about F or F#. F# sounds more modern but to me less authentic (whatever that is...) than Fnat. Sticking to what he has written only seems to give the impression that he played either anywhere, depending on how he felt at that moment. Although not all work both ways. I've gone through picking which I want where and I stick to it.
Flute players- do you cheat on C?
Flute players- do you cheat on C?
Here is a question for my fellow flute players, and I suppose it could include whistlers, too.
When playing G reels, such as Miss McLeods and Rossmere Jetty
(which I'm working on now), do you use the standard fingering for C (OXXOOO) each time the note occurs, or do you ever cheat and raise all fingers if the C is buried amid a flurry of eighth notes?
Of course, it then becomes a C#, and one must weigh intonation with ease of playing,whenever C precedes or follows a B. On my flute, the C# is a bit flat, so I can sometimes "get away with it."
Just wondering what others do...
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
I'm learning whistle (since July last year) and I never cheat. I mean it. It would sound wrong to me. OXX OOO for lower octave; OXO OOO for upper octave works for me, though most of the time, if you do have a 'c' in the upper octave on whistle, which is rare, you can half-hole it.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
I don't know Rossmere Jetty, but in Miss McLeods I always play C nat (OXX OOO), it seems not very difficult in this tune (speed = 120 bpm). Although C# does probably not really "hurt" if you play fast and especially if you play with other instruments.
Thanks for the clue, I will try to cheat next time
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by claudine
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
I've just re-looked at those two tunes. The Cnats are OK in those, aren't they? Now, for a challenge, try the one I've just picked up and, I admit, am just struggling a teensy weensy bit with:
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1807
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
I half hole the c natural and rarely use the fork fingering. O f course the finger holes need to be be sizey.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by red_tiger
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
I usually do not cheat on that C nat, the only thing that bothers me is the (3Bcd triplet in reels that require Cnat, it sometimes is just plain boring to leave that one out, but at doubled speed, i don't always go for the cross fingering, and right now I can't half hole that at the given speed:(.
That way I somtimes make that C-Part of Greigs Pipes a little D-majorish: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/605
Another example would be the Sligo Maid, but there this trick has at least found its way into the playing of the poster on this site too
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/399
Still i don't recommend this!!!!
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by TMB
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
I think that "(3Bcd triplet" you mention is just a knack. It helps if you leave the third finger of your right hand (or bottom hand, anyway) on the hole. Then, all you have to do is get the move from B to c right and the d just plonks itself in there more or less automatically.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
Greg if your C# is a bit flat you're missing out.
It is easy to fix & it might help with getting the Cn as well.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
Although a whistle not a flute player, I think c# in Miss Mcleod's actually sounds good and gives it a bit more interest, just near the end of the A part.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by maxF
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
I presume you do that becuase you choose to, though, maxF? I think it's right that, in the right hands and in the right places, deliberately putting in a c# is good. But you've got to be able to do the cnat when necessary.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
for me OXO XXX works better (pratten style flute) for C Nat.
Or I just use the thumb hole...
Chris.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
Just learn to play properly and stop seeking support for playing the wrong note to avoid your current problems. If you practice you'll get it in no time.
And don't think that playing C# goes unnoticed!
Jim
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by skerries
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
Yes, ben, I can do the cnat. Just call me Mr Dangerous...
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by maxF
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
There's a lovely staccato pop that you get when you run up the triplet:
X00 000
0XX 000
XXX XXX
It's kind of like when you bow it on the fiddle.
Fluffing it to:
X00 000
000 000
XXX XXX
looses the pop.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
Yes, maxF, I didn't mean to imply that you, personally, couldn't do it. I just wanted to highlight that it should be a choice, not just done for ease ...
... oh, I'll stop digging now ...
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
This is a another fingering for the Bcd triplet, that I was shown by piper and whistle player, Michael Falsey:
XOO XXX
OXO XXX
OXX XXX
- Having the three bottom holes closed has negligible effect on the B on most whistles.
-The C-natural fingering is a little sharp on some whistles (although is spot-on on Tony Dixon whistles), but not enough to matter in the middle of a triplet.
-There is no need to close the top hole for a high D on most whistles.
This fingering requires very little movement, as the RH fingers stay in position throughout, and it gives just as much 'pop', I think, as Michael's fingering..
Another fingering that works well is:
XOOXOX
OXXXOX
OXXXXX
The OXXXOX fingering gives, to my ear, the most in tune C natural on Generation (and many other) whistles.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by granama
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
Ah well, this thread made me think so much about that triplet that i sorted it out, have to agree about that staccato pop there. Really if you've got a problem with the the C nat in a phrase, practise that phrase until the problem dissapears, from time to time you will encounter awkward phrases, until you already know most of them, and as said before, there is hardly an instance where it really won't go unnoticed, even if your neighbour couldn't make out that it was that C sharp that made the difference, he will have the feel that you're doing something differently/wrong.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by TMB
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
benhall.1: "OXO OOO for upper octave works for me, though most of the time, if you do have a 'c' in the upper octave on whistle, which is rare, you can half-hole it."
I find OXX XXO gives the most reliable upper octave C natural on the whistle. Also, you can slide up to it from the B by sliding your finger off the top hole - XXX XXO gives you a B when you hit the 3rd harmonic (which takes a strong initial puff, but no more than you'd need anyway to hit top C).
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by granama
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
....Furthermore, you can jump up to top D just by closing the bottom hole. This gives a more reliable 3rd octave D than closing all holes as, with all holes closed there is a risk of hitting the 3rd harmonic (as opposed to the 3rd *octave*, which is actually the 4th harmonic), an octave-and-a-fifth above bottom D (i.e. high A), if you don't provide enough attack.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by granama
Re: Flute players- do you cheat on C?
One note which I often _do_ "fudge" is the Gsharp in a lot of transcribed Scottish pieces in "A", but actually in the bagpipe scale. It makes for two different feels to the music to play either properly in A as most fiddlers do, or to play properly in the bagpipe scale of two sharps, base note A. And the lower G should never be a G sharp in this situation anyway.
And sometimes if the note is a G# on a weak note (e.g 4th quaver of a reel) e.g. in Margaree reel, second part second bar | abagNAT fdfg# | abaf... I find that a judicious slide up from f over the G to A can produce a nice effect.
And by the way, I can play a passably good half.holed G# and I do also have the option of a G# key on some of my flutes... So decisions of this nature are not laziness for me.
I also have a version of Calum Crubach written out with one sharp, but also obviously a Pipe tune originally. Here the Cs are all either natural in the middle of a bcd triplet or sharp everywhere else. And in this case, I really wouldn't regard it as cheating to play either in the triplets, or even some other construct altogether.
And James Scott Skinner's sheet music for Tullochgorum with variations seems to have an awful lot of questionable decisions to be made about F or F#. F# sounds more modern but to me less authentic (whatever that is...) than Fnat. Sticking to what he has written only seems to give the impression that he played either anywhere, depending on how he felt at that moment. Although not all work both ways. I've gone through picking which I want where and I stick to it.
Chris.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Crackpot