I would like to know what people think of volume 1 & 2 of this book. A friend of mine bought volume 2 from the Comhaltas tour and it looks very useful. To people think it is worth getting a hold of?
I've been trying to get hold of a copy for some time. It was previously mentioned in a discussion that you could get it from the Comhatas website (www.comhaltas.com), but I could not find any details there and I have had no response from two emails. Does anyone know how to get a copy of these books?
Hi Jamie, - I have Volume 2. I'll lend it to you for a while - but only after you've finished your exams ! Let me know when that is, and I'll send it to you - still the same address ? Say "hello" to Mick Ward and the lads, (and tell them to slow down) !
These are the David Lyth books, correct? I own volume I, but can't say I've ever used it much. The bowing indications either confirmed what I was already doing, or they were awkward. Either way, I didn't want to sound like I was copying Coleman or Killoran (especially since it still sounded too much like Harmon . And it's more fun to learn the tunes off the recordings or live players.....
Why, do you want to confirm what you're already doing. or play awkwardly?
Sorry, sure Zina, we can figure out how Coleman *should* have bowed all those tunes, heh.
I find all bowing that I am unaccustomed to using awkward, but it does not remain that way. Very soon I become accustomed to a particular bowing style - for example, I currently have a habit of slurring on to the first note of the off beat and using extra weight and speed of the bow to emphasise it but also to slur into the note immediately before the off beat and using the change of bow to emphasise the off beat. I picked this up by noticing what some of the better fiddlers around me were doing, and it was initially awkward, but now I don't think about it, it just happens.
I have no idea whether this is a good thing to do, but I do notice alot of off beat in much of the slower fiddle music I own. I am currently trying to put a bit more swing into some of the tunes I play. I have a recording of Coleman playing the broken pledge which has much swing, but it is unclear to me how he achieves it. When I try to copy him I only get half way, if you see what I mean. I want to be able to work out what he is doing, not so as I can copy coleman, but so as I can understand his bowing and use it as and when it suits, subjectively separate the wheat from the chaff. Couldn't a book like this help with this sort pf approach?
Jamie, you're on the right track (and probably ahead of me). Someone far wiser than me said there's no such thing as easy music and difficult music, it's just either familiar or unfamiliar. And once it's familiar, it's not hard to play.
I've never sat down with the Coleman recordings and Lyth's book to really sort things out, but it seems like Lyth did a decent job of catching the bowings. And yes, it's worth playing through them to see what Coleman was doing. Just realize that it may not fit your style or sense of phrasing. You can do the same thing yourself, of course, transcribing a tune and then laying out all the bowing options to see what works for you. A painstaking exercise, but worth doing at least once if you're the methodical sort.
Slurring across the bars is a fairly common approach to swinging a tune and it will take you far down that road. For an advanced lesson, listen to Kevin Burke's In Concert cd. More innovative than purist Irish fiddling, but stellar stuff nonetheless--a gold mine for fiddlers looking to freshen up their bowing and rhythm.
Yes, I figure Will is doing all his dissembling now. Come August, he's probably going to burn us all. (Of course, I, on the other hand, am as bad as I say I am.)
I have always thought that catchy little phrases like that are dreadfully misleading, Will -- it's true, I'll grant you that, but getting it to be familiar and thus not hard to play is a much tougher process than it sounds. It's a little like saying, "oh, quantum physics isn't as hard as it sounds, once it's familiar to you, it's not hard to do at all." *grin*
To make it worse, it's easy to think it IS familiar and easy when in real life you haven't got it at all. You only think you do. It's like being 7 years old and turning 8 and thinking to yourself that you're so much more grown up than last year, and then turning 9 and realizing that you were really quite immature at 8 and now you're much more grown up and so on and so forth...
Ooops, did I forget to mention that it takes a lifetime to become completely familiar with this stuff?
But the point holds true--once you *do* know a tune inside and out, and once your technique is good enough to pull it off, then it really isn't hard anymore. When you start out, even polkas are difficult ( ;o), and something like the Bees Wing Hornpipe would be impossible. But after 20-30 years of selfless dedication to the craft, hours of well-oiled daily practice, and patient obeisance at the feet of mentoring masters, one day you too will be able to play...a polka
Seriously, even beginners can experience this unfamiliar/familiar trip. Say you've been learning simple jigs and polkas, and at first it's a major struggle just to get the instrument to quit howling, lock and load on a reasonable simulation of a beat, and then remember the notes you're allegedly playing. After a few weeks of this, your teacher casually mentions cut notes and rolls and leads you through a reel. Suddenlly, that first jig you learned feels so much more comfortable. Granted, it doesn't *sound* any better than it did last week, but your anxiety level on it doesn't rise as high anymore.
More experienced players tend to think about this in terms of:
Familiar tunes--those tunes I've known since I can't remember, can play them when falling down drunk, scared stiff (like playing on a wet, metal stage tower during an electrical storm), or partially conscious.
Unfamiliar tunes--Stuff I've recently learned. Sometimes they click, sometimes they don't. They feel more difficult because there's more unknown territory there, and I think I have to pay more attention to where I'm going.
Maybe my point comes more clear if I add that unfamiliar tunes can be technically easy to play, but still difficult to pull off well, simply because they're unfamiliar. On the other hand, attitude makes a big difference, and I believe learning this music comes easier if that little voice in your head quits arguing with itself over whether something is easy or hard and instead thinks in terms of familiar/unfamiliar. Not much different than what Zina tells her dance students--that if it were "natural," anyone would be able to do it right off. So the idea is to work at it until it becomes natural. Substitute "familiar" and it still makes sense.
Come August, I'll prove this little theory by trainwrecking on every new tunes any of you try to teach me....
hello,Jamie,i have vol. 1 somewhere or the one with the blue cover anyway.
if you live in london email me via the session and i'll drop it round for you when i've found it.
good luck
So, to get back to the original question: Are they good books? I've only seen Vol 2, and only the cover, and only a scan at the Custys site… what's it like inside?
At one time, I owned both volumes. I went through all the tunes, and listened to the recordings, and felt that there were enough errors in the books that I preferred to transcribe the tunes and bowings myself. Which turned out to be a great learning experience.
Emulating the bowing of a player you admire is a worthwhile exercise, and it helps to study many different fiddlers this way just to realize the remarkable range of options available. But you'll learn more by digging in and doing the work yourself, rather than relying on someone else's ear. Just my two cents.
Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Two Questions:
I would like to know what people think of volume 1 & 2 of this book. A friend of mine bought volume 2 from the Comhaltas tour and it looks very useful. To people think it is worth getting a hold of?
I've been trying to get hold of a copy for some time. It was previously mentioned in a discussion that you could get it from the Comhatas website (www.comhaltas.com), but I could not find any details there and I have had no response from two emails. Does anyone know how to get a copy of these books?
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Jamie
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Hi Jamie, - I have Volume 2. I'll lend it to you for a while - but only after you've finished your exams ! Let me know when that is, and I'll send it to you - still the same address ? Say "hello" to Mick Ward and the lads, (and tell them to slow down) !
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Kenny
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
I think it was bigvioladave who mentioned it last. Dave, you out there? Where did you say you could get it?
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Cheers Kenny, will contact you re vol 2 and will say "hello" to the lads!!
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Jamie
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
These are the David Lyth books, correct? I own volume I, but can't say I've ever used it much. The bowing indications either confirmed what I was already doing, or they were awkward. Either way, I didn't want to sound like I was copying Coleman or Killoran (especially since it still sounded too much like Harmon
. And it's more fun to learn the tunes off the recordings or live players.....
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Can I see your copy this August, Will? I'd like to page through it if you still have it around...
zls
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Why, do you want to confirm what you're already doing. or play awkwardly?
Sorry, sure Zina, we can figure out how Coleman *should* have bowed all those tunes, heh.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
I find all bowing that I am unaccustomed to using awkward, but it does not remain that way. Very soon I become accustomed to a particular bowing style - for example, I currently have a habit of slurring on to the first note of the off beat and using extra weight and speed of the bow to emphasise it but also to slur into the note immediately before the off beat and using the change of bow to emphasise the off beat. I picked this up by noticing what some of the better fiddlers around me were doing, and it was initially awkward, but now I don't think about it, it just happens.
I have no idea whether this is a good thing to do, but I do notice alot of off beat in much of the slower fiddle music I own. I am currently trying to put a bit more swing into some of the tunes I play. I have a recording of Coleman playing the broken pledge which has much swing, but it is unclear to me how he achieves it. When I try to copy him I only get half way, if you see what I mean. I want to be able to work out what he is doing, not so as I can copy coleman, but so as I can understand his bowing and use it as and when it suits, subjectively separate the wheat from the chaff. Couldn't a book like this help with this sort pf approach?
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Jamie
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Jamie, you're on the right track (and probably ahead of me). Someone far wiser than me said there's no such thing as easy music and difficult music, it's just either familiar or unfamiliar. And once it's familiar, it's not hard to play.
I've never sat down with the Coleman recordings and Lyth's book to really sort things out, but it seems like Lyth did a decent job of catching the bowings. And yes, it's worth playing through them to see what Coleman was doing. Just realize that it may not fit your style or sense of phrasing. You can do the same thing yourself, of course, transcribing a tune and then laying out all the bowing options to see what works for you. A painstaking exercise, but worth doing at least once if you're the methodical sort.
Slurring across the bars is a fairly common approach to swinging a tune and it will take you far down that road. For an advanced lesson, listen to Kevin Burke's In Concert cd. More innovative than purist Irish fiddling, but stellar stuff nonetheless--a gold mine for fiddlers looking to freshen up their bowing and rhythm.
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Cheers for the advice Will,
you're on the right track (and probably ahead of me)
I very much doubt it!!
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Jamie
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Yes, I figure Will is doing all his dissembling now. Come August, he's probably going to burn us all. (Of course, I, on the other hand, am as bad as I say I am.)
I have always thought that catchy little phrases like that are dreadfully misleading, Will -- it's true, I'll grant you that, but getting it to be familiar and thus not hard to play is a much tougher process than it sounds. It's a little like saying, "oh, quantum physics isn't as hard as it sounds, once it's familiar to you, it's not hard to do at all." *grin*
To make it worse, it's easy to think it IS familiar and easy when in real life you haven't got it at all. You only think you do. It's like being 7 years old and turning 8 and thinking to yourself that you're so much more grown up than last year, and then turning 9 and realizing that you were really quite immature at 8 and now you're much more grown up and so on and so forth...
zls
# Posted on May 31st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Ooops, did I forget to mention that it takes a lifetime to become completely familiar with this stuff?
But the point holds true--once you *do* know a tune inside and out, and once your technique is good enough to pull it off, then it really isn't hard anymore. When you start out, even polkas are difficult ( ;o), and something like the Bees Wing Hornpipe would be impossible. But after 20-30 years of selfless dedication to the craft, hours of well-oiled daily practice, and patient obeisance at the feet of mentoring masters, one day you too will be able to play...a polka
Seriously, even beginners can experience this unfamiliar/familiar trip. Say you've been learning simple jigs and polkas, and at first it's a major struggle just to get the instrument to quit howling, lock and load on a reasonable simulation of a beat, and then remember the notes you're allegedly playing. After a few weeks of this, your teacher casually mentions cut notes and rolls and leads you through a reel. Suddenlly, that first jig you learned feels so much more comfortable. Granted, it doesn't *sound* any better than it did last week, but your anxiety level on it doesn't rise as high anymore.
More experienced players tend to think about this in terms of:
Familiar tunes--those tunes I've known since I can't remember, can play them when falling down drunk, scared stiff (like playing on a wet, metal stage tower during an electrical storm), or partially conscious.
Unfamiliar tunes--Stuff I've recently learned. Sometimes they click, sometimes they don't. They feel more difficult because there's more unknown territory there, and I think I have to pay more attention to where I'm going.
Maybe my point comes more clear if I add that unfamiliar tunes can be technically easy to play, but still difficult to pull off well, simply because they're unfamiliar. On the other hand, attitude makes a big difference, and I believe learning this music comes easier if that little voice in your head quits arguing with itself over whether something is easy or hard and instead thinks in terms of familiar/unfamiliar. Not much different than what Zina tells her dance students--that if it were "natural," anyone would be able to do it right off. So the idea is to work at it until it becomes natural. Substitute "familiar" and it still makes sense.
Come August, I'll prove this little theory by trainwrecking on every new tunes any of you try to teach me....
# Posted on May 31st 2003 by Will Harmon
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
LOL...uh huh...sure you will.
Wow, the Butte lineup in August sure sounds like fun. I can hardly wait!
zls
# Posted on May 31st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
hello,Jamie,i have vol. 1 somewhere or the one with the blue cover anyway.
if you live in london email me via the session and i'll drop it round for you when i've found it.
good luck
# Posted on June 2nd 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
Hi
I wonder if anyone knows where I could buy a copy of David Lyth's Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle playing Vol. 1. I have vol 2, and find it useful?
# Posted on October 19th 2010 by ringoging
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
So, to get back to the original question: Are they good books? I've only seen Vol 2, and only the cover, and only a scan at the Custys site… what's it like inside?
# Posted on February 27th 2012 by yrneH
Re: Bowing Styles in Irish Fiddle Playing
At one time, I owned both volumes. I went through all the tunes, and listened to the recordings, and felt that there were enough errors in the books that I preferred to transcribe the tunes and bowings myself. Which turned out to be a great learning experience.
Emulating the bowing of a player you admire is a worthwhile exercise, and it helps to study many different fiddlers this way just to realize the remarkable range of options available. But you'll learn more by digging in and doing the work yourself, rather than relying on someone else's ear. Just my two cents.
# Posted on February 27th 2012 by Will Harmon