What's a natural tempo ~
Follow the best melody player . . .
Bass notes played on box . . .
Tipper beats . . .
metronome?
Fiddles . . .
Flutes . . .
The Foot?
It seems like trad uses variation in rhythm.
What about the tempo?
Seriously, the melody players should be driving it. If you're listening to the base notes on an accordion or (shudder) the drum, you're in early trouble.
That's a joke, but does the best melody player follow the tempo (steadily) or his or her mood (not always steady). Its art not, as some might say, math (?)
Of course the players hsve to reference on something . . . or someone. So ou listen & watch their foot.
But what's wrong with following the bass accompaniment?
This is dance music. Keep the main beats steady. You can play around with the timing between those beats, especially in a small session. But when playing for dancers, just swing it a skooch and give them lift. Don't speed up or slow down unless the dancers ask for it (within reason).
A metronome can help you steady your rhythm, but better yet, play with a musician who already has rock solid rhythm. And learn to feel it.
If you're playing for a decent group of dancers ( obviously not ones with fiberglass shoes ( see earlier discussion ) ), the beat gets set anyway, and though a good leading musician can change the tempo for the dancers, the two sides, musos and hoppers, keep each other in time. It's just group dynamics.
so depending on who is listening to whom
it either works as a whole . . . or you just stumble about. The solid players are important but even they might want to listen to the newer players. Also watch the dancers. If there are dancers. & are fiberglass soles just TOO LOUD?
Fiberglass soles beat fiberglass souls. Everybody beats bodhrans. Watch whoever started the tune (or ogle whoever is best-looking, or glare at whoever is committing the worst transgression). Whether or not it's ok to change tempo depends on who you are playing for. As llig said, "it depends."
No, if the rhythm is just stumbling about, then you steady it, if your rhythm is solid. If it's not, then listen for someone with solid rhythm to steady it. If you're playing in a group or for dancers, and no one is able to steady the beat or get people to entrain, then go to the bar....
I find The Foot -Because In most sessions people move around tempos - eg reels you would get a tune like sweeneys buttermilk reel is better slower + humours of tulla,,beter faster..
But sometimes even with a set of tunes the tempo may move
up or down ,,In cases when this gets ot out of hand-of should I
say Foot,, A trick I learnt from the kerry men or old flute players
is to tap both feet one after another and try to stick to a constant
beat - You may say both feet taping like a metronome,,Looks daft-but has not failed me yet,, Liz Carroll dose a similar thing
with both feet one on the meter ,,the other on Half beat,,
Funny to see but It Works,,
jim,,,
I was at a session the other night & was little disappointed because the tunes were going a bit quick with disregard to swing & lift. Regardless of what I wanted - that was the craic of the session I was at; when in Rome, do as the Romans do. I wouldn't gain any karma by pushing my wishes on everyone else.
In short my answer is to just go with the flow, when in a session.
This topic came up just this evening after a session. Someone swore that one musician was tapping (stomping?) loudly NOT in time with what he was playing!
Another (a strong leader and very accomplished muso) said that frequently others would accelerate his tunes and there was nothing he could do about it, short of stopping and re-starting (with admonishments).
Some thought that a rhythm player should lay down the beat and keep time, but another remarked that the bodhranists sounded just like his fishtank (burble bubble bubble) and were not helpful at all. There were no strummers present at all.
The advantages of a giant overhead metronome were also mentioned, but no one knew where to find one.
In trad "melody is king" so forget following the keyboard or Bodhrán as they should also defer to the tune players. Normally the person who starts the tune sets the tempo although I've noticed in sessions where this may be a weaker player starting off a bit unsteadily, the stronger ones usually row in quickly to steady it up.
Very occasionally if irretrievably hijacked, I'll stop and start again, once in a blue moon though. You come across as a bit of a t w a t for doing it.
And occasionally, some one (usually a newbie, though often an experienced no-hoper) might start a tune which is way way too fast for them. It's interesting what happens here ... whether anyone else could easily play the tune at that tempo or not, no-one joins in and the tune petters out. If it's a good tune, I'll usually make an effort to start the same tune again later in the evening at a tempo they'd be more comfortable with.
The fiddler from Genticorum _drums_ with both feet all night
on a miked board. Sometimes people play with better rhythm
than they do with their tapping. Does more harm
than good sometimes
"If you're playing for a decent group of dancers ( obviously not ones with fiberglass shoes ( see earlier discussion ) ), the beat gets set anyway, and though a good leading musician can change the tempo for the dancers, the two sides, musos and hoppers, keep each other in time. It's just group dynamics." ~ Guernsey Pete
You obviously aren't playing for dancers, lots of dancers. You have to establish the steady beat amongst you, as musicians, with some idea of what tempo is required for the situation, dancer, dancers, and if you must and are hired to ~ to their requirements. You can always ask if unsure, or, as they often do, they'll let you know if it is too fast or too slow. BUT ~ don't follow their lead by what you hear. However minor the distance, the noise the dancers will make will be just ever so slightly off, even by micro-seconds. If you chase their rhythm with your ears it will only escalate and continue to grow faster. THAT IS WHAT MONITORS ARE FOR ~ SO ~ YOU LISTEN TO EACH OTHER amongst the din of dancers.
DON'T follow the noise on the dance floor, follow each other, and primarily, the melody. If you've a solid 'leader', focus on them. For some bands, if theirs a solid keyboard player or strummer or even drummer ~ why not! ~ if they've got respect for the rest of you and are good at establishing something solid in the way of rhythm. BUT NOT THE DANCERS ~ NEVER!!!
Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning... In case you wonder about my motivations ~ I also dance...
Another source for guidance ~ if there is one ~ is the caller/prompter or dance teacher... The best way to know is to be part of that community, fully involved, through your music and your feet...
You don't have to be loud if you like to tap your feet. Sometimes the mere physical act can be a help, for yourself, following what's going on. But, as noted, some people are arhythmic. Or, maybe it's just a matter of the distance to communicate from the brain to the feet? I'v had the pleasure of playing with some really rock steady tenor banjo players, and even bodhranistas, where it was a pleasure, and even, if more rarely, where the pleasure was someone stepping as they played, audibly...
Mad Baloney ~ in a session like that, wanting to believe most people are considerate, if asked to start a set off ~ start it off with a 'short' introduction ~ "I'd like to take this one a little slower and with a bit of swing." You could even give a couple of bars as an example ~ "like so!" It might not survive after the first few bars, but you can only ask, try. Or you could ask to take the first time through the A to set the tempo. Again, it might not survive, but it may be that folks don't know what their missing, or that you're not alone in wishing things could sometimes be a little more controlled and relaxed than manic and erratic? Chance are there are more in your camp than amongst the few that like to drive things on as if they were whippets in a race...faster and faster and ~... The usual is the variable, like when the B-part is always faster than the A, or something like that...
Normally it is the leader that controls the pace and one should follow his foot. but it is considered good manners to follow the pace of the person who starts the tune in a session. its not on to hijack the tempo.
I personally like the tempo steady (slowish) as i find that the rythm gets lost when the speed is increased.
Watching dancers in a too focused way can actually throw you, aside from as mentioned previously. The lost ones can draw your attention, as has happened to me when I've been tired or not completely aware, and you can find yourself getting equally lost. I love watching the dance, but it is a skill, to do so and not focus, not let the rhythms you see take you into them. It is the business of the musicians to set an acceptable and steady tempo (erratic tempos tire, confuse and irritate dancers), and up to the dancers to follow the tempo of the musicians, not the other way around... Yes, they can ask for a tempo, or their 'leader' (caller/prompter/teacher) can request one, but in the end the dancer(s) follows the music, not the music the dancer(s)... Dance is the same as certain other instruments ~ accompaniment!!!
"Of course the players have to reference on something . . . or someone. So you listen & watch their foot."
I watch/listen to feet as a last resort (well, maybe before following the drum). Most people only tap their foot as an afterthought, and many folks don't tap particularly cleanly with respect to what they're actually playing. If nothing else, the tapping foot is still one level removed from the melody.
Several years ago, Johnny "Ringo" McDonough came through and sat in (with the bodhran) on an afternoon session I was playing with my box-playing friend, Sean. When we got around to playing a certain set of jigs, Johnny stopped playing. Afterwards, he apologized, saying that the two of us were playing different rhythms for the jig, and he wasn't sure who to follow. Sean and I looked at each other, tried it again, and sure enough Johnny was right--we were playing different rhythms in between the beats (one of us was swinging more than the other). We both started paying a little more attention to each other, and it felt like we had turned off a lumpy dirt road and onto a smooth highway. Everything fit better, and it was just much more fun all around.
That's why you shouldn't follow anything but the music from the melody players. Without that level of detail (and you can't get that level of detail from anything but the melody), you're more likely to be butting rhythmic heads. If there's a bunch of melody players, you'll have to come to a consensus to make it work.
We have an electric bass player.
I follow her, watch feet, & listen to
the player who started .
Thanks -c
even pre -coffee that is a good commentary on dancers & musicians. Hope you found a stout cup of the brew.
I understand the protocol of following the loud one . . . but easy? It depends.
I know a flute player who is rarely the loudest. But check out her tempo.
Solid!
Good anecdote, George. Lucky you, having Mr. McDonough around to help you sort things out. Here in Montana, we just get the occasionaly touring big shot from the East Coast....
*grin*
Seems to me that good rhythm and timing come from the brain and whatever body part is actually executing them. So as a fiddler, it's my bow hand, specifically the contact point with the stick. When I play flute, rhythm and timing come from my diaphragm and the muscles around that. My fingers (left hand on fiddle, both hands on flute) coordinate with that rhythm and timing. Tapping a foot or two is just an extension of that coordination, and as George says, not everyone actually taps with what they're playing.
If you're stuggling to steady or refine your rhythm, it helps to focus on the specific body part that's actually doing the beat--slightly different for each instrument.
Quite often players speed up through a tune or set (born of enthusiasm or whatever), which can sometimes add excitement or, alternately, be a bit annoying. The "walking" pace isn't a bad analogy, and one that makes tunes swing a lot harder than struggling to keep up (and sounding it). Steady on.
Georgi we cross-posted.
I know what you mean about tapping feet.
But your foot is your friend.
Fortunately I play with some who do tap with the tempo. You just have to know who they are.
Georgi ~ brilliant addition to this, and the tale, I loved it... I'm with Muse, some do and some are way off and erratic. Sometimes you have to fight to avoid listening or hearing those erratic sorts.
I remember reading a paper on monitoring the bodies of musicians playing in ensemble, speaking of body parts, and what gave me goose bumps, and they had the graphs to show it as well, was that their hearts synchronized at some point, they were keeping the same time... How cool is that? I don't know if it happens in all cases, this was a well established quintet, not trad. I have read and noticed some similar correlations between rhythm and step and heart beat before. While there is a wide variety of possibilities, an average that is often prevalent is around 120 beats a minute...
Keeping it steady is less tiring, for musicians and dancers, less of a struggle and it's much easier to relax and enjoy the shared high... I love the old phrases for it ~ "being in the groove"... & "being tight"...
"c" brain researchers have found the same entrainment of our neural activity when we humans play music together. Yes, it happens in any ensemble that listens to each other. And non-playing listeners, too.
I was kidding when I said you go with whoever has the loudest instrument. It's just that that's exactly what happens sometimes, and it's not a good thing if that person isn't steady.
One thing that works to calm down a tune that's getting out of hand is to try quieting it down (assuming you started the tune). If you can do that, then everyone starts listening more closely, and the tune can even out.
It's fair comment Jmbu. It is also why the piano accordion is one of the most feared and hated instruments in our realm ~ volume, the imitation of an out of tune ensemble with reeds in tonal conflict (the whole wet/dry debate), and the damned bass & chord OOMPAH!!! Yes, there are couteous players, but the bad ones leave a lasting impression. You are forced for follow their lead, which also often means flattening the music even more, everything legato...that is...amongst the worst of that bunch, those who bought it because it was the biggest, the loudest, the most buttons, the one-man/woman-band sort ~ "DO YUH WANNA BE IN MY GANG, MY GANG, MY GANG" ~ NOOOOOO!!!
We had a sweet auld lady with a GINORMOUS PA show up for a few sessions a while back. She didn't know any tunes, just songs. She'd happily sit listening to us and then we'd turn her loose for a song here and there. She'd march up and down the bar cranking the thing, singing at the top of her lungs, all manner of what we'd term schmaltzy, hackneyed songs, but it was hard not to dig her, she was a riot.
The point was she had the decency and grace to know what she was there for. She didn't try to play along with ones she didn't know, and she only knew a few of what we'd call 'tunes' but she knew a million airs and really was a singer with this giant thing that was half her size.
Keeping on topic, she had great rhythm. Rock steady waltz, polka song beats. An exception to the rule, apparently!
I have an old friend I’ve been playing tunes with for forty years who is excellent on several instruments, but sometimes starts tapping his foot completely out of synch with the music – almost randomly. Fortunately, it’s subtle and inaudible, but if I ever start watching, I have to stifle the urge to laugh out loud. It’s like a nervous twitch that comes out when he’s playing a tune he’s not quite mastered yet.
Nervous twitches!!! We had a friend, also in our band, a fine fiddler, who used to visibly chew their tongue to the music. We also learned to not look in their direction... I wouldn't be the only time we've come across such things. A flute player I'd met used to grunt in time with the music they were playing... At least it was in time. Sometimes it was a grumble that could be said to be syncopated, but not off the music completely...
Now we're in the realm of needing another discussion started up on the topic of peculiar habits accompanying music...just to make us all paranoid and rushing to the mirror to see if we do anything funny or odd while we play, like flaring nostrils in time to the music...
Steady
Steady
What's a natural tempo ~
Follow the best melody player . . .
Bass notes played on box . . .
Tipper beats . . .
metronome?
Fiddles . . .
Flutes . . .
The Foot?
It seems like trad uses variation in rhythm.
What about the tempo?
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Steady
it depends
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Steady
Obviously
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Steady
Glad we got that settled.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Georgi
*
?
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Steady
Seriously, the melody players should be driving it. If you're listening to the base notes on an accordion or (shudder) the drum, you're in early trouble.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Steady
So toss the metronome & never look back?
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by TheMuse
* Steady * not so obvious
That's a joke, but does the best melody player follow the tempo (steadily) or his or her mood (not always steady). Its art not, as some might say, math (?)
Of course the players hsve to reference on something . . . or someone. So ou listen & watch their foot.
But what's wrong with following the bass accompaniment?
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Steady
This is dance music. Keep the main beats steady. You can play around with the timing between those beats, especially in a small session. But when playing for dancers, just swing it a skooch and give them lift. Don't speed up or slow down unless the dancers ask for it (within reason).
A metronome can help you steady your rhythm, but better yet, play with a musician who already has rock solid rhythm. And learn to feel it.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Steady
If you're playing for a decent group of dancers ( obviously not ones with fiberglass shoes ( see earlier discussion ) ), the beat gets set anyway, and though a good leading musician can change the tempo for the dancers, the two sides, musos and hoppers, keep each other in time. It's just group dynamics.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Group dynamics
so depending on who is listening to whom
it either works as a whole . . . or you just stumble about. The solid players are important but even they might want to listen to the newer players. Also watch the dancers. If there are dancers. & are fiberglass soles just TOO LOUD?
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Steady
Fiberglass soles beat fiberglass souls. Everybody beats bodhrans. Watch whoever started the tune (or ogle whoever is best-looking, or glare at whoever is committing the worst transgression). Whether or not it's ok to change tempo depends on who you are playing for. As llig said, "it depends."
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: Steady
No, if the rhythm is just stumbling about, then you steady it, if your rhythm is solid. If it's not, then listen for someone with solid rhythm to steady it. If you're playing in a group or for dancers, and no one is able to steady the beat or get people to entrain, then go to the bar....
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Steady
I find The Foot -Because In most sessions people move around tempos - eg reels you would get a tune like sweeneys buttermilk reel is better slower + humours of tulla,,beter faster..
But sometimes even with a set of tunes the tempo may move
up or down ,,In cases when this gets ot out of hand-of should I
say Foot,, A trick I learnt from the kerry men or old flute players
is to tap both feet one after another and try to stick to a constant
beat - You may say both feet taping like a metronome,,Looks daft-but has not failed me yet,, Liz Carroll dose a similar thing
with both feet one on the meter ,,the other on Half beat,,
Funny to see but It Works,,
jim,,,
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Steady
I was at a session the other night & was little disappointed because the tunes were going a bit quick with disregard to swing & lift. Regardless of what I wanted - that was the craic of the session I was at; when in Rome, do as the Romans do. I wouldn't gain any karma by pushing my wishes on everyone else.
In short my answer is to just go with the flow, when in a session.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Mad Baloney
Re: Steady
This topic came up just this evening after a session. Someone swore that one musician was tapping (stomping?) loudly NOT in time with what he was playing!
Another (a strong leader and very accomplished muso) said that frequently others would accelerate his tunes and there was nothing he could do about it, short of stopping and re-starting (with admonishments).
Some thought that a rhythm player should lay down the beat and keep time, but another remarked that the bodhranists sounded just like his fishtank (burble bubble bubble) and were not helpful at all. There were no strummers present at all.
The advantages of a giant overhead metronome were also mentioned, but no one knew where to find one.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Steady
Here's a giant overhead metronome for use on people who tap their feet out of time: http://artfiles.art.com/images/-/The-Pit-and-the-Pendulum-Poster-C10129662.jpeg
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Steady
In trad "melody is king" so forget following the keyboard or Bodhrán as they should also defer to the tune players. Normally the person who starts the tune sets the tempo although I've noticed in sessions where this may be a weaker player starting off a bit unsteadily, the stronger ones usually row in quickly to steady it up.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Steady
Very occasionally if irretrievably hijacked, I'll stop and start again, once in a blue moon though. You come across as a bit of a t w a t for doing it.
And occasionally, some one (usually a newbie, though often an experienced no-hoper) might start a tune which is way way too fast for them. It's interesting what happens here ... whether anyone else could easily play the tune at that tempo or not, no-one joins in and the tune petters out. If it's a good tune, I'll usually make an effort to start the same tune again later in the evening at a tempo they'd be more comfortable with.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Steady
The fiddler from Genticorum _drums_ with both feet all night
on a miked board. Sometimes people play with better rhythm
than they do with their tapping. Does more harm
than good sometimes
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by mhuppert
Re: Steady
"If you're playing for a decent group of dancers ( obviously not ones with fiberglass shoes ( see earlier discussion ) ), the beat gets set anyway, and though a good leading musician can change the tempo for the dancers, the two sides, musos and hoppers, keep each other in time. It's just group dynamics." ~ Guernsey Pete
AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! ~ NO! ~ NOOO!!! ~ NOOOOOOO!!!
You obviously aren't playing for dancers, lots of dancers. You have to establish the steady beat amongst you, as musicians, with some idea of what tempo is required for the situation, dancer, dancers, and if you must and are hired to ~ to their requirements. You can always ask if unsure, or, as they often do, they'll let you know if it is too fast or too slow. BUT ~ don't follow their lead by what you hear. However minor the distance, the noise the dancers will make will be just ever so slightly off, even by micro-seconds. If you chase their rhythm with your ears it will only escalate and continue to grow faster. THAT IS WHAT MONITORS ARE FOR ~ SO ~ YOU LISTEN TO EACH OTHER amongst the din of dancers.
DON'T follow the noise on the dance floor, follow each other, and primarily, the melody. If you've a solid 'leader', focus on them. For some bands, if theirs a solid keyboard player or strummer or even drummer ~ why not! ~ if they've got respect for the rest of you and are good at establishing something solid in the way of rhythm. BUT NOT THE DANCERS ~ NEVER!!!
Sorry, I haven't had my coffee yet this morning... In case you wonder about my motivations ~ I also dance...
Another source for guidance ~ if there is one ~ is the caller/prompter or dance teacher... The best way to know is to be part of that community, fully involved, through your music and your feet...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Steady
You don't have to be loud if you like to tap your feet. Sometimes the mere physical act can be a help, for yourself, following what's going on. But, as noted, some people are arhythmic. Or, maybe it's just a matter of the distance to communicate from the brain to the feet? I'v had the pleasure of playing with some really rock steady tenor banjo players, and even bodhranistas, where it was a pleasure, and even, if more rarely, where the pleasure was someone stepping as they played, audibly...
Mad Baloney ~ in a session like that, wanting to believe most people are considerate, if asked to start a set off ~ start it off with a 'short' introduction ~ "I'd like to take this one a little slower and with a bit of swing." You could even give a couple of bars as an example ~ "like so!" It might not survive after the first few bars, but you can only ask, try. Or you could ask to take the first time through the A to set the tempo. Again, it might not survive, but it may be that folks don't know what their missing, or that you're not alone in wishing things could sometimes be a little more controlled and relaxed than manic and erratic? Chance are there are more in your camp than amongst the few that like to drive things on as if they were whippets in a race...faster and faster and ~... The usual is the variable, like when the B-part is always faster than the A, or something like that...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Steady
oldstrings
<The advantages of a giant overhead metronome were also mentioned, but no one knew where to find one,,>
Would Big Ben work - lol
jim,,,,
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Steady
Normally it is the leader that controls the pace and one should follow his foot. but it is considered good manners to follow the pace of the person who starts the tune in a session. its not on to hijack the tempo.
I personally like the tempo steady (slowish) as i find that the rythm gets lost when the speed is increased.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by murcu
Re: Steady
Watching dancers in a too focused way can actually throw you, aside from as mentioned previously. The lost ones can draw your attention, as has happened to me when I've been tired or not completely aware, and you can find yourself getting equally lost. I love watching the dance, but it is a skill, to do so and not focus, not let the rhythms you see take you into them. It is the business of the musicians to set an acceptable and steady tempo (erratic tempos tire, confuse and irritate dancers), and up to the dancers to follow the tempo of the musicians, not the other way around... Yes, they can ask for a tempo, or their 'leader' (caller/prompter/teacher) can request one, but in the end the dancer(s) follows the music, not the music the dancer(s)... Dance is the same as certain other instruments ~ accompaniment!!!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Steady
Easy -- you follow the player with the loudest instrument.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Jmbu
Re: Steady
One time, on here, I remember someone saying something about being able to walk at a comfortable and normal rate to the tempo of the tune.
Conversely, if it's not at that pace, it could feel like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryuCbZngsck
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Steady
Foot tapping duet ~
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Dr-dxaoz3g
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Steady
"Of course the players have to reference on something . . . or someone. So you listen & watch their foot."
I watch/listen to feet as a last resort (well, maybe before following the drum). Most people only tap their foot as an afterthought, and many folks don't tap particularly cleanly with respect to what they're actually playing. If nothing else, the tapping foot is still one level removed from the melody.
Several years ago, Johnny "Ringo" McDonough came through and sat in (with the bodhran) on an afternoon session I was playing with my box-playing friend, Sean. When we got around to playing a certain set of jigs, Johnny stopped playing. Afterwards, he apologized, saying that the two of us were playing different rhythms for the jig, and he wasn't sure who to follow. Sean and I looked at each other, tried it again, and sure enough Johnny was right--we were playing different rhythms in between the beats (one of us was swinging more than the other). We both started paying a little more attention to each other, and it felt like we had turned off a lumpy dirt road and onto a smooth highway. Everything fit better, and it was just much more fun all around.
That's why you shouldn't follow anything but the music from the melody players. Without that level of detail (and you can't get that level of detail from anything but the melody), you're more likely to be butting rhythmic heads. If there's a bunch of melody players, you'll have to come to a consensus to make it work.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Steady
We have an electric bass player.
I follow her, watch feet, & listen to
the player who started .
Thanks -c
even pre -coffee that is a good commentary on dancers & musicians. Hope you found a stout cup of the brew.
I understand the protocol of following the loud one . . . but easy? It depends.
I know a flute player who is rarely the loudest. But check out her tempo.
Solid!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Steady
Good anecdote, George. Lucky you, having Mr. McDonough around to help you sort things out.
Here in Montana, we just get the occasionaly touring big shot from the East Coast....
*grin*
Seems to me that good rhythm and timing come from the brain and whatever body part is actually executing them. So as a fiddler, it's my bow hand, specifically the contact point with the stick. When I play flute, rhythm and timing come from my diaphragm and the muscles around that. My fingers (left hand on fiddle, both hands on flute) coordinate with that rhythm and timing. Tapping a foot or two is just an extension of that coordination, and as George says, not everyone actually taps with what they're playing.
If you're stuggling to steady or refine your rhythm, it helps to focus on the specific body part that's actually doing the beat--slightly different for each instrument.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Steady
Quite often players speed up through a tune or set (born of enthusiasm or whatever), which can sometimes add excitement or, alternately, be a bit annoying. The "walking" pace isn't a bad analogy, and one that makes tunes swing a lot harder than struggling to keep up (and sounding it). Steady on.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by drone
*
Georgi we cross-posted.
I know what you mean about tapping feet.
But your foot is your friend.
Fortunately I play with some who do tap with the tempo. You just have to know who they are.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by TheMuse
**
your friend ~ friendly feats
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Steady
Georgi ~ brilliant addition to this, and the tale, I loved it... I'm with Muse, some do and some are way off and erratic. Sometimes you have to fight to avoid listening or hearing those erratic sorts.
I remember reading a paper on monitoring the bodies of musicians playing in ensemble, speaking of body parts, and what gave me goose bumps, and they had the graphs to show it as well, was that their hearts synchronized at some point, they were keeping the same time... How cool is that? I don't know if it happens in all cases, this was a well established quintet, not trad. I have read and noticed some similar correlations between rhythm and step and heart beat before. While there is a wide variety of possibilities, an average that is often prevalent is around 120 beats a minute...
Keeping it steady is less tiring, for musicians and dancers, less of a struggle and it's much easier to relax and enjoy the shared high... I love the old phrases for it ~ "being in the groove"... & "being tight"...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Steady
"c" brain researchers have found the same entrainment of our neural activity when we humans play music together. Yes, it happens in any ensemble that listens to each other. And non-playing listeners, too.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Steady
....... body parts, ......goose bumps, ....... hearts synchronized......keeping the same time......."
Oooo, ceolachan, mind wandering badly here- - -
As I tell my driving students when their steering goes to pot
"time to slow down and get it together"
Thanks, FIDDLE4, but I think I'll keep RichardB's link for future use!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: Steady
I like 'c's' description of synchronicity between players.
FWIW, my own take on it:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=uPEFEe3F76k
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Steady
I was kidding when I said you go with whoever has the loudest instrument. It's just that that's exactly what happens sometimes, and it's not a good thing if that person isn't steady.
One thing that works to calm down a tune that's getting out of hand is to try quieting it down (assuming you started the tune). If you can do that, then everyone starts listening more closely, and the tune can even out.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Jmbu
Re: Steady
It's fair comment Jmbu. It is also why the piano accordion is one of the most feared and hated instruments in our realm ~ volume, the imitation of an out of tune ensemble with reeds in tonal conflict (the whole wet/dry debate), and the damned bass & chord OOMPAH!!! Yes, there are couteous players, but the bad ones leave a lasting impression. You are forced for follow their lead, which also often means flattening the music even more, everything legato...that is...amongst the worst of that bunch, those who bought it because it was the biggest, the loudest, the most buttons, the one-man/woman-band sort ~ "DO YUH WANNA BE IN MY GANG, MY GANG, MY GANG" ~ NOOOOOO!!!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Steady
We had a sweet auld lady with a GINORMOUS PA show up for a few sessions a while back. She didn't know any tunes, just songs. She'd happily sit listening to us and then we'd turn her loose for a song here and there. She'd march up and down the bar cranking the thing, singing at the top of her lungs, all manner of what we'd term schmaltzy, hackneyed songs, but it was hard not to dig her, she was a riot.
The point was she had the decency and grace to know what she was there for. She didn't try to play along with ones she didn't know, and she only knew a few of what we'd call 'tunes' but she knew a million airs and really was a singer with this giant thing that was half her size.
Keeping on topic, she had great rhythm. Rock steady waltz, polka song beats. An exception to the rule, apparently!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Steady
I have an old friend I’ve been playing tunes with for forty years who is excellent on several instruments, but sometimes starts tapping his foot completely out of synch with the music – almost randomly. Fortunately, it’s subtle and inaudible, but if I ever start watching, I have to stifle the urge to laugh out loud. It’s like a nervous twitch that comes out when he’s playing a tune he’s not quite mastered yet.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Steady
Nervous twitches!!!
We had a friend, also in our band, a fine fiddler, who used to visibly chew their tongue to the music. We also learned to not look in their direction... I wouldn't be the only time we've come across such things. A flute player I'd met used to grunt in time with the music they were playing... At least it was in time. Sometimes it was a grumble that could be said to be syncopated, but not off the music completely...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Another band, as I'm remembering, was a mandolin player who used to swallow his lower lip...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Now we're in the realm of needing another discussion started up on the topic of peculiar habits accompanying music...just to make us all paranoid and rushing to the mirror to see if we do anything funny or odd while we play, like flaring nostrils in time to the music...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Steady
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/1491/comments#comment24954
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Steady
Figures it has already been in topic here...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by ceolachan