I just bought my first accordion (a Hohner B/C black dot) and have been playing it between 1-2 hours a day for the past week. Unfortunately, two days ago, I noticed what feels like a muscle soreness on the pinky-finger side of the top of my wrist (top being the side I see when typing). I'm very paranoid about Carpal Tunnel Syndrone, so I stopped playing. I have many questions and any responses would be greatly appreciated.
Has anyone else felt similar soreness? Could this simply be from holding a 6lb accordion for extended time?
I suspect that I'm holding and fingering the accordion incorrectly. I'm a bit tall (6'3) and am unable to rest the accordion on my leg with the straps that came with the accordion (is that what I'm supposed to do?) Also, I've been playing with my index finger on the 3rd leftmost button and using that as I guide to place my other fingers. When I have to play a note that isn't on one of those 4 buttons, I stretch 1 finger to hit the appropriate button, keeping the other 3 in the same place. Is this proper technique? Or should I slide my whole hand over?
My accordion came with a thuimb strap. I've been using it, but I'm also wary that it's forcing my hand into an unnatural position.
The two books I have (The Box & the Art of Playing Hohner Button Accordions) aren't very explicit about what to do.
I know this might be a bit obvious Pete but you should really try and get at least a few lessons even if its only enough to show you how to hold the box properly and get some finger placement advice. Cheers !
First, sit down. You've enough to understand without the added complication of standing upright.
Open your booklet "The Box" to the page titled "So How Do I Play It?" On my copy that's pg.8. Read those instructions but before you do anything else after reading them, flip through the book to find the photos of Joe Cooley, Jackie Daly and David C. Hanrahan (T.T.C.T.). Those photos are on pp 3, 6 and the back cover, respectively, of my copy. Now, return to the "So How Do I Play It?" page and follow those instructions. You can use the text below to supplement Hanrahan's.
Straps are comprised of three pieces, usually: the longest main piece that may be padded, and two ends that attach not only to the box brackets but also buckle to the main piece and have holes for adjustment like a belt. Assuming there's only one shoulder strap, unbuckle the adjustment pieces and refasten them at the holes closest to the tips. If there are two shoulder straps, only use the one fastened to the right hand brackets on the box. The right hand brackets are on the right side top and bottom when you've got the box on your lap with the keyboard to your right and facing away from you.
Now, holding the box in front of you with the keyboard to your right and facing away from you, put your right arm through the shoulder strap then drape the strap over your right shoulder. If the box won't reach your lap comfortably, have a cobbler make longer adjustment pieces.
Push against the keyboard to create tension against the strap that should be around your right shoulder. This will keep the box stable. The left hand moves to work the bellows. From that right hand position you extend and contract your hand and fingers to reach button. You are allowed to reposition your thumb along the keyboard for long reaches. Cut off the thumbstrap and use it to wrap an onion bunch. You don't need to keep your fingers rigidly aligned over certain keys either.
If the Hohner book didn't explain this stuff, use it for garden mulch. While you're trying to find a teacher, get the John Williams DVD from your library and watch it.
My partner, who has the opposite problem of being very small, always plays with two shoulder straps and he has got expensive padded and very adjustable straps. He looks as if he's been harnessed for a bungee jump, but at least the instrument is solid and he can move about and play standing up if necessary.
He does not use the thumb strap and he slides his hand up and down the buttons in a cheerful, random kind of a way and doesn't use his little finger much. As far as I know he has not had problems with his hands except with the Hohner D/G which puts a sharp edge under his left palm. His other instruments have a chamfered edge.
Using the thumb strap or not is now a matter of personal preference. Early melodeon players of one-row instruments used it as the only strap and supported the box with their thumb. Our ancestors were tougher than we are and presumably didn't notice the agony which surely must have resulted.
Don't cut off the thumbstrap even if you don't use it, unless it is badly in the way, in case you want to sell the box on.
Quite agree Laitch ..... I play a B/C Saltarelle Bouebe and B/C Castagnari Dinn II neither of which was supplied with a thumbstrap. I play these sitting down, using only one shoulder strap and, because I'm not tall (hence my name), I also use a guitarist's 'footstool' - if that's the right word, to help wedge the box against my left thigh. I have developed an interesting shape to my left thigh - I call it 'Box Player's Dinge'. I also have a Castagnari Lilly D/G which I prefer to play standing and therefore using two shoulder straps. It does have a thumbstrap - and I can't get my head (or thumb) around the principle at all! Two straps gives the standing position quite enough 'security' so why the need to get your thumb tangled up?
Low Profile's comment is good for minimizing back pain and gaining better bellows control. You don't say if you are playing other instruments while you are learning.
From my experience with carpal tunnel, it happens higher on with the thumb and pointing finger first.
The bottom part of the hand is the weakest. Also, being new, you are putting alot of lateral stress on the tendons and ligaments. My box teacher and I have talked about it recently because I was getting pain in at the knuckle of the bass side pinky finger....But I was also playing backer guitar with a 12 string and six string guitar, and playing alot of piano fomr St. Pat's through after Easter.
Laitch's advice to have someone who knows what they are doing (or get John's excellent DVD) so you know you are holding the box properly. Use ibuprophon for a few days after you know you are holding the box correctly and see if it subsides. If not tou may need to see an orthopedic if you actually hurt the ligaments in particular. Those are nasty injuries and take months to go away (goal keeper in an earlier life. Pinky hyperextension were pretty common)
Big thing. Ditch the thumb strap....as functional as t*ts on a b*ll.
Think about the two straps. Doesn't look as authentic, but feels better, gives you better bellows control and the treble side of the box doesn't dance around as much.
Laitch's advice is very good. Longest post I think I've ever seen from him but right on.
I remember that I use to get pain in my thumb when I started playing. I'm afraid that the muscles in your hand/fingers will ache until you get use to it, so pace yourself and don't overdo it. Use two shoulder straps. Don't use the thumb strap. It will restrict the free movement of your fingers. The thumb strap originated from the days of the old one row melodeon that had no shoulder straps and was balanced on the knee. Some players have a thumb that bends backwards, and they are able to place it on the outside edge of the keyboard. Some players have a straight thumb and place it along the back edge of the keyboard. Try and avoid letting your thumb go behind the keyboard, it will eventually restrict the movement of your hand. Use all four fingers. With practice the little finger will become as flexible as the others, and it stands to reason that when it comes to playing fast all four fingers will give you greater scope on the keyboard. A bit like being a 'touch typist' as opposed to the two finger kind. As for the weight of your box being 6lbs, well if it's any consolation the heavest box I own and play for hours on end is a Shand Marino B/C/C# 46 treble/120 bass weighting in at 26 lbs, so have faith and don't give up the playing.
There, Freereed gives the best advice : we've been made with five fingers : with button boxes, the thumb is less used, but at least, use the other four. the pinky can be really useful when you tackle difficult tunes : less movement of the whole hand... the best position is : the thumb just positionned on the side of the keyboard - not pushing : if you have one shoulder strap, play sitting down, and use your thigh to block the box. if you play staning, you should definitely use 2 straps... the best way to have a good, and relax playing postion : strap on the box, let your arms down, and just raise them in a relaxed way till you reach the accordion : gives you a kind of "round" position, without abnormal (and painful) stress.
The story of the thumb starp is a wee bit diefferent : when I had workshops with Philippe Bruneau, the québécois melodeon player (one great musician !), he showed me how to use the right arm to be more precise in the "push-pull" : it means you use both arms to play the bellows, whilst with 2 or 3 row boxes, you use the left arm. So when I play one-row melodeon, I use the thumb srtap, but the 2 or 3 rows, I use 2 shoulder strap.
your right hand should be free to go all over the keyboard, the thumb sliding if needed. I got to use the thumb on the keys for some tunes... your left hand should also be quite free : I teach my pupils to use al four fingers on the bass keys (the left thumb being of course on the air key - the most important key of the button box !!!)... that means putting your hand far enough in the hand strap, which can be a problem with Hohner, the angle cutting into the the arm and causing pain.. I solved this by putting a small sponge between the arm and the box...
But, last but not not least, the more relaxer you play, the less stress and pain you get...
My Salterelle has a bevel on the bass side so the hard edge doesn't stick into your wrist. Its nice that way.
Cap'n Pete...When you start using your basses you will also have some stress on the left pinky which will cause some discomfort. I am told keeping your left elbow up helps that. (Some of us like to keep our elbow low...lazy bast*rds that we are)
Whether or not to use the little finger of the right hand (or at least, whether to make significant use of it) is another box topic that has been discussed at length.
Logically it would seem to make sense to make good use of the litte finger, as you have to on the piano, or the fiddle, to give two examples.
But there's another school of thought that you should be aware of. If you observe good Irish-style two-row players you will notice that a very significant proportion, probably a large majority, use the little finger very seldom or not at all. There are good reasons for this!
My experience is that the increased mobility forced upon you by not making much use of the little finger is a huge benefit. Try it, work at it, and see for yourself. It won't hamper your ability to play fast, quite the reverse IMO (examples: Mairtin O Connor, Peter Browne).
In any event, leaving your index finger in one position and stretching your fingers to reach other buttons is not the way to go, as others have said.
Just about everyone has problems adjusting to playing the box (thumbs, straps, ahces and pains) but provided you pay attention to what you're doing, it will just get easier and easier. Keep at it and good luck!
Zippy, if you hold your left elbow up, it's bound to make you raise your shoulder as well, and that stresses the muscles of the shoulder... for me the best way is to hold the box so the bellows move the most horizontal possible (except when you're pulling far of course...), but try to have the most relaxed shoulder and arm possible... the muscle movement starst from the shoulder muscles... I know you can see very good players, like Mairtin O'Connor for instance, play with certain positions, that are completely anti-ergonomic, and still play tremendously fast. But then, their body is used to that position since early childhood, which might not be the case of most of us... at least not me, I started playing box 30 years ago, and I was 18 (choke...), and I had to find "the" good position... but I noticed that when you get the most comfortable position, it dose change your playing and even your sound, helping you to master the bellows (which is the greatest difficulty with accordion playing : for me the best accordion players aren't those who play very fast on the keyboard, but those who can control the bellows...)
But I guess you'll find your own position... keep going Captain
Remember not to breath in time with the bellows. Everyone tends to do this initially because it uses less energy to synchronize your breathing with repetitive movements and so the body does it instinctively. Unfortunately the bellows movements aren't repetitive and you'll faint.
As for body positions - just don't model yourself on John Kirkpatrick! Brilliant player - but he hunches his back, raises one shoulder in the air and seems to be trying to put his head under his arm as he plays.
Get a good box tech to set up the box for you. Two things in particular:
1 Get the right hand button travel limited so that the buttons can't go way down the holes.
2 Get the box tuned, and the reeds set for best response. From the factory the tuning and reed setup is only approximately right. Getting the reeds right will mean you will be able to play with less effort.
I wasn't suggesting the left elbow way up. When I was starting, I was warned against my elbow low, at my side. The players I talked to suggested elbow between the 8 and 9 oclock position to minimize strain with the bellows and contorting the bottom two fingers on the left hand when playing the bass.
I know this is fodder for another thread, but on my right hand I was taught to use the pinky for some grace notes and cuts, particularly an octave or fifth interval grace note. It takes a while to get the mental independence of ring and pinky oddly enough.
The pinky is also helpful on quick arpeggios involving the buttons on the bottom of the keyboard, usually moving up if that makes sense.
But I am a piano player/organist and the using the pinky is just part of the technique there.
Accordion Pain
Accordion Pain
I just bought my first accordion (a Hohner B/C black dot) and have been playing it between 1-2 hours a day for the past week. Unfortunately, two days ago, I noticed what feels like a muscle soreness on the pinky-finger side of the top of my wrist (top being the side I see when typing). I'm very paranoid about Carpal Tunnel Syndrone, so I stopped playing. I have many questions and any responses would be greatly appreciated.
Has anyone else felt similar soreness? Could this simply be from holding a 6lb accordion for extended time?
I suspect that I'm holding and fingering the accordion incorrectly. I'm a bit tall (6'3) and am unable to rest the accordion on my leg with the straps that came with the accordion (is that what I'm supposed to do?) Also, I've been playing with my index finger on the 3rd leftmost button and using that as I guide to place my other fingers. When I have to play a note that isn't on one of those 4 buttons, I stretch 1 finger to hit the appropriate button, keeping the other 3 in the same place. Is this proper technique? Or should I slide my whole hand over?
My accordion came with a thuimb strap. I've been using it, but I'm also wary that it's forcing my hand into an unnatural position.
The two books I have (The Box & the Art of Playing Hohner Button Accordions) aren't very explicit about what to do.
Again, any help would be greatly apprectiated.
Thanks,
Pete
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Captain Pete
Re: Accordion Pain
I know this might be a bit obvious Pete but you should really try and get at least a few lessons even if its only enough to show you how to hold the box properly and get some finger placement advice. Cheers !
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by domino
Re: Accordion Pain
First, sit down. You've enough to understand without the added complication of standing upright.
Open your booklet "The Box" to the page titled "So How Do I Play It?" On my copy that's pg.8. Read those instructions but before you do anything else after reading them, flip through the book to find the photos of Joe Cooley, Jackie Daly and David C. Hanrahan (T.T.C.T.). Those photos are on pp 3, 6 and the back cover, respectively, of my copy. Now, return to the "So How Do I Play It?" page and follow those instructions. You can use the text below to supplement Hanrahan's.
Straps are comprised of three pieces, usually: the longest main piece that may be padded, and two ends that attach not only to the box brackets but also buckle to the main piece and have holes for adjustment like a belt. Assuming there's only one shoulder strap, unbuckle the adjustment pieces and refasten them at the holes closest to the tips. If there are two shoulder straps, only use the one fastened to the right hand brackets on the box. The right hand brackets are on the right side top and bottom when you've got the box on your lap with the keyboard to your right and facing away from you.
Now, holding the box in front of you with the keyboard to your right and facing away from you, put your right arm through the shoulder strap then drape the strap over your right shoulder. If the box won't reach your lap comfortably, have a cobbler make longer adjustment pieces.
Push against the keyboard to create tension against the strap that should be around your right shoulder. This will keep the box stable. The left hand moves to work the bellows. From that right hand position you extend and contract your hand and fingers to reach button. You are allowed to reposition your thumb along the keyboard for long reaches. Cut off the thumbstrap and use it to wrap an onion bunch. You don't need to keep your fingers rigidly aligned over certain keys either.
If the Hohner book didn't explain this stuff, use it for garden mulch. While you're trying to find a teacher, get the John Williams DVD from your library and watch it.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by joesmith
Re: Accordion Pain
My partner, who has the opposite problem of being very small, always plays with two shoulder straps and he has got expensive padded and very adjustable straps. He looks as if he's been harnessed for a bungee jump, but at least the instrument is solid and he can move about and play standing up if necessary.
He does not use the thumb strap and he slides his hand up and down the buttons in a cheerful, random kind of a way and doesn't use his little finger much. As far as I know he has not had problems with his hands except with the Hohner D/G which puts a sharp edge under his left palm. His other instruments have a chamfered edge.
Using the thumb strap or not is now a matter of personal preference. Early melodeon players of one-row instruments used it as the only strap and supported the box with their thumb. Our ancestors were tougher than we are and presumably didn't notice the agony which surely must have resulted.
Don't cut off the thumbstrap even if you don't use it, unless it is badly in the way, in case you want to sell the box on.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: Accordion Pain
Cut off that sucker and send it back to Hohner with the shreds of their booklet, c.o.d.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by joesmith
Re: Accordion Pain
Quite agree Laitch ..... I play a B/C Saltarelle Bouebe and B/C Castagnari Dinn II neither of which was supplied with a thumbstrap. I play these sitting down, using only one shoulder strap and, because I'm not tall (hence my name), I also use a guitarist's 'footstool' - if that's the right word, to help wedge the box against my left thigh. I have developed an interesting shape to my left thigh - I call it 'Box Player's Dinge'. I also have a Castagnari Lilly D/G which I prefer to play standing and therefore using two shoulder straps. It does have a thumbstrap - and I can't get my head (or thumb) around the principle at all! Two straps gives the standing position quite enough 'security' so why the need to get your thumb tangled up?
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by boxershort
Re: Accordion Pain
Cap'n:
Here's my view formed from bitter experience
Use 2 shoulder straps and a backstrap whether seated or standing.
Bin the thumbstrap as advised.
Don't play a B/C with a fixed hand position like a G/D - make your fingers "walk" up and down the keyboard.
Don't use you little finger.
Rest your thumb as lightly as possible on the edge of the keyboard.
Minimise any pressure you apply to the instrument through your fingers.
Pain is nature's way of telling you you're doing it wrong. Ignore it at your peril.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by millionyears_bc
Re: Accordion Pain
Low Profile's comment is good for minimizing back pain and gaining better bellows control. You don't say if you are playing other instruments while you are learning.
From my experience with carpal tunnel, it happens higher on with the thumb and pointing finger first.
The bottom part of the hand is the weakest. Also, being new, you are putting alot of lateral stress on the tendons and ligaments. My box teacher and I have talked about it recently because I was getting pain in at the knuckle of the bass side pinky finger....But I was also playing backer guitar with a 12 string and six string guitar, and playing alot of piano fomr St. Pat's through after Easter.
Laitch's advice to have someone who knows what they are doing (or get John's excellent DVD) so you know you are holding the box properly. Use ibuprophon for a few days after you know you are holding the box correctly and see if it subsides. If not tou may need to see an orthopedic if you actually hurt the ligaments in particular. Those are nasty injuries and take months to go away (goal keeper in an earlier life. Pinky hyperextension were pretty common)
Big thing. Ditch the thumb strap....as functional as t*ts on a b*ll.
Think about the two straps. Doesn't look as authentic, but feels better, gives you better bellows control and the treble side of the box doesn't dance around as much.
Laitch's advice is very good. Longest post I think I've ever seen from him
but right on.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Accordion Pain
I remember that I use to get pain in my thumb when I started playing. I'm afraid that the muscles in your hand/fingers will ache until you get use to it, so pace yourself and don't overdo it. Use two shoulder straps. Don't use the thumb strap. It will restrict the free movement of your fingers. The thumb strap originated from the days of the old one row melodeon that had no shoulder straps and was balanced on the knee. Some players have a thumb that bends backwards, and they are able to place it on the outside edge of the keyboard. Some players have a straight thumb and place it along the back edge of the keyboard. Try and avoid letting your thumb go behind the keyboard, it will eventually restrict the movement of your hand. Use all four fingers. With practice the little finger will become as flexible as the others, and it stands to reason that when it comes to playing fast all four fingers will give you greater scope on the keyboard. A bit like being a 'touch typist' as opposed to the two finger kind. As for the weight of your box being 6lbs, well if it's any consolation the heavest box I own and play for hours on end is a Shand Marino B/C/C# 46 treble/120 bass weighting in at 26 lbs, so have faith and don't give up the playing.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Accordion Pain
There, Freereed gives the best advice : we've been made with five fingers : with button boxes, the thumb is less used, but at least, use the other four. the pinky can be really useful when you tackle difficult tunes : less movement of the whole hand... the best position is : the thumb just positionned on the side of the keyboard - not pushing : if you have one shoulder strap, play sitting down, and use your thigh to block the box. if you play staning, you should definitely use 2 straps... the best way to have a good, and relax playing postion : strap on the box, let your arms down, and just raise them in a relaxed way till you reach the accordion : gives you a kind of "round" position, without abnormal (and painful) stress.
The story of the thumb starp is a wee bit diefferent : when I had workshops with Philippe Bruneau, the québécois melodeon player (one great musician !), he showed me how to use the right arm to be more precise in the "push-pull" : it means you use both arms to play the bellows, whilst with 2 or 3 row boxes, you use the left arm. So when I play one-row melodeon, I use the thumb srtap, but the 2 or 3 rows, I use 2 shoulder strap.
your right hand should be free to go all over the keyboard, the thumb sliding if needed. I got to use the thumb on the keys for some tunes... your left hand should also be quite free : I teach my pupils to use al four fingers on the bass keys (the left thumb being of course on the air key - the most important key of the button box !!!)... that means putting your hand far enough in the hand strap, which can be a problem with Hohner, the angle cutting into the the arm and causing pain.. I solved this by putting a small sponge between the arm and the box...
But, last but not not least, the more relaxer you play, the less stress and pain you get...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Nikita Pfister
Re: Accordion Pain
Thanks very much to everyone who replied. I've read what you've written at least 3 times!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Captain Pete
Re: Accordion Pain
Nikita
I've seen Sharon Shannon also use the sponge.
My Salterelle has a bevel on the bass side so the hard edge doesn't stick into your wrist. Its nice that way.
Cap'n Pete...When you start using your basses you will also have some stress on the left pinky which will cause some discomfort. I am told keeping your left elbow up helps that. (Some of us like to keep our elbow low...lazy bast*rds that we are)
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Accordion Pain
Whether or not to use the little finger of the right hand (or at least, whether to make significant use of it) is another box topic that has been discussed at length.
Logically it would seem to make sense to make good use of the litte finger, as you have to on the piano, or the fiddle, to give two examples.
But there's another school of thought that you should be aware of. If you observe good Irish-style two-row players you will notice that a very significant proportion, probably a large majority, use the little finger very seldom or not at all. There are good reasons for this!
My experience is that the increased mobility forced upon you by not making much use of the little finger is a huge benefit. Try it, work at it, and see for yourself. It won't hamper your ability to play fast, quite the reverse IMO (examples: Mairtin O Connor, Peter Browne).
In any event, leaving your index finger in one position and stretching your fingers to reach other buttons is not the way to go, as others have said.
Just about everyone has problems adjusting to playing the box (thumbs, straps, ahces and pains) but provided you pay attention to what you're doing, it will just get easier and easier. Keep at it and good luck!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Jeeves Tones
Re: Accordion Pain
Zippy, if you hold your left elbow up, it's bound to make you raise your shoulder as well, and that stresses the muscles of the shoulder... for me the best way is to hold the box so the bellows move the most horizontal possible (except when you're pulling far of course...), but try to have the most relaxed shoulder and arm possible... the muscle movement starst from the shoulder muscles... I know you can see very good players, like Mairtin O'Connor for instance, play with certain positions, that are completely anti-ergonomic, and still play tremendously fast. But then, their body is used to that position since early childhood, which might not be the case of most of us... at least not me, I started playing box 30 years ago, and I was 18 (choke...
), and I had to find "the" good position... but I noticed that when you get the most comfortable position, it dose change your playing and even your sound, helping you to master the bellows (which is the greatest difficulty with accordion playing : for me the best accordion players aren't those who play very fast on the keyboard, but those who can control the bellows...)
But I guess you'll find your own position... keep going Captain
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Nikita Pfister
Re: Accordion Pain
Remember not to breath in time with the bellows. Everyone tends to do this initially because it uses less energy to synchronize your breathing with repetitive movements and so the body does it instinctively. Unfortunately the bellows movements aren't repetitive and you'll faint.
As for body positions - just don't model yourself on John Kirkpatrick! Brilliant player - but he hunches his back, raises one shoulder in the air and seems to be trying to put his head under his arm as he plays.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by LowProfile
Re: Accordion Pain
Get a good box tech to set up the box for you. Two things in particular:
1 Get the right hand button travel limited so that the buttons can't go way down the holes.
2 Get the box tuned, and the reeds set for best response. From the factory the tuning and reed setup is only approximately right. Getting the reeds right will mean you will be able to play with less effort.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Theo Gibb
Re: Accordion Pain
Nikita
I wasn't suggesting the left elbow way up. When I was starting, I was warned against my elbow low, at my side. The players I talked to suggested elbow between the 8 and 9 oclock position to minimize strain with the bellows and contorting the bottom two fingers on the left hand when playing the bass.
I know this is fodder for another thread, but on my right hand I was taught to use the pinky for some grace notes and cuts, particularly an octave or fifth interval grace note. It takes a while to get the mental independence of ring and pinky oddly enough.
The pinky is also helpful on quick arpeggios involving the buttons on the bottom of the keyboard, usually moving up if that makes sense.
But I am a piano player/organist and the using the pinky is just part of the technique there.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by zippydw
Re: Accordion Pain
I hold my paola vertically like a fiddle with the treble keys under my chin and it works great.
Pat
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Pat Duff