So here you are. Maybe you've played for a few years, perhaps more, hopefully improving and having a great time playing with friends at your respective 'locals'. Does anyone have the general feeling that you are now a bit different than you used to be before you decided to lock yourself up in a closet and play your fiddle, accordian, flute, box (or whatever) for hours a day to learn yet another new tune, perfect an old workhorse, etc.? As corny as this may sound, how has your life changed from what you knew it to be before you began all this Irish-Trad nonsense?
Well, maybe it was different for me because I was a stepdancer first. So all this stuff was pretty much around. My obsessions are different, I have less time now to do some of the other stuff I was doing before (and I'm not doing some of it now). I'm not different, not in the ways you're talking about, I think, Kev, but on the other hand, my world looks different than it did before I began dancing and playing.
Yes! But it's not so much the playing (or singing) that's changed my life, I've always been involved in music. It's the wonderful conviviality of it. Believe me, the world of struggling indie-bands is just not the same - it's full of arrogant macho w******s for a start. It's just been remarkable to me, how over the last year I've met so many people through the music, and now if I go to a session or a gig, there are people there that I know, and it's kind of like an extended family... and 95% of them are friendly, decent people! Now, some of you may have lived in that kind of environment all your lives, but I am a middle-class British person (for current purposes, you can read that as English) and am used to rather reserved social environments. Also, I live in London, where the habit is to ignore the people around you on the street, on the tube, etc, with complete impassive blankness - even if they address you directly, since that probably means they're either mad or on the scrounge.
I had a road-to-Damascus moment in Miltown last year. People would say 'how're you doing' when they passed on the road, and for the first couple of days, I was taken by surprise, and half of the time, too slow to respond and take that impassive mask off my face. I suddenly realised what city life had turned me into. (I did grow up in the Welsh countryside, where it would be normal to acknowledge another person passing you on the road, even in a car). I was quite horrified to see that my conditioned reflex was to avoid social contact.
From that moment on I made a concious effort to get past that barrier, although I am a shy person and it doesn't come easily. However, I now consider it normal to say 'hello' to a complete strangers at a session, instead of lurking in the corner with averted gaze...
So it's partly the social connection of the music and that extended-family phenomenon, and it's partly what you might call the Irish Influence, but I'm definately more relaxed than I was before, though it might not look like it. (I'm hardly a riotous party beast...)
Seriously? Well, a regular diet of sessions has left me fatter, paler-skinned, smellier, more incoherent, more forgetful, even more economically unproductive (which is remarkable for a freelance writer!), more sleep-deprived...and happier than I was before. Kev, is that what you mean?
definitely fatter, paler-skinned, more sleep-deprived, and happier )) hehehe ))
I think I've become kinder too.....I used to be more isolated and scared to even walk up to someone and say hi, but now I am happier and nicer, I've learned to appreciate people more and have learned that listening can be a powerful tool in life and happiness.
yeah, that sort of made sense, it's all typed up in my head...just kind of hard to explain it in words, I guess
I noticed that i became more compulisve as i started to play more. i try to play whenever! In terms of being social i probably moved down cause i think about music 85% of my day.
and I am always tired from the gig on the previous day but i make up for that in amth class!
What a marvellous question!
Although music has been a part of my life (sometimes more, sometimes less) since I was six (and that's a VERY long time ago)...Since I have really become focused on ITM, I am enjoying my music more than any other time in my life...including when I was young, footloose, fancy-free, and doing it for a living in the paradise known as the USVI's.
I have grown more both as a musician, and personally, in the past 15 months that I have devoted to ITM, than with any other style of music I have studied. I truly feel as though I have come home. After only slightly more than a year, I feel confident that I have found my niche, at last...who knows where it will take me, and who cares, when you've found the love of your life?
Although I enjoy what trad does for my social life, it makes me drink too much alcohol and I have to cope with hangovers too often. Also money seems to disappear too quickly. Going to sessions makes me smoke, especially if bb's around. Sessions are really bad for my health I've decided. Aside from the health issues, I never seem to get enough work done these days, because I'd much rather sit and learn a new tune than work.
You know, looking at what I've written above, it would be better for me if I gave up playing and became a goody-goody, but that's not going to happen.
We should come up with a shorthand for 'Ottery's mate's plan' (OMP?), b/c I'm on that too. When I left civilization (read: where alcohol is legal), I had played in an Irish band for a year as a lark, but was never really serious. But having found a core group of loyalists out here, almost all my vacation leave is devoted to seeking out sessions & workshops, my spare time playing & learning as much as I can (ie surfing here), & spending my spare dollars on my instruments, their maintenance & my CD collection. (Just got 6 more from ebay for under $28!) Additionally, appalled at the acoustics of my main playing area, I've torn out the carpet & redesigned my living space, including moving my computer adjacent to my playing area b/c I learn so many tunes off this darn thing. Also to have proximity to downloading sessions off minidisc & burning CDs.
So yeah, I'm pretty different. I'm putting my years of rural seclusion to good use! But I have to say, I never would have made it this far without at least one other muso to practice with, so Julie, if you're out there, thank you for being as obsessed as me, to Marc for being an amazing backer, to Kristen for ordering her goofy bodhran from Ireland with incompatible videocassette, Katie for loaning me so many CDs to help stoke the fire & also for your amazing singing voice, plus all the migratory peeps who have made my house sessions such a blast. (I'm leaving the bones player out of this.)
Zina, in my town, players get their beer for free! I'm poorer only because I never work...seems I'm always transcribing tunes for people stymied by ear learning.
My first post was meant as a jest, but it's pretty close to the truth, too. But I've played music nearly all my life (just drifting from one instrument to the next to make sure I never get the hang of any of them), so the mindset doesn't feel "different," just who I am. Tho this music has allowed me a better expressive outlet than bluegrass ever did. It's good to know a music that has tunes appropriate for whatever mood I'm in.
As much as it shapes my life, I don't feel at all defined by this music. Music is something I do, not who I am. It's good to be obsessive about it when you're starting on the learning curve, but sometimes I feel sorry for people who eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff because there's so much "else" to life. Maybe this is obvious and silly for me to say (or heretical--which?!), but it's wonderful to be able to fit in weekly sessions, a bazillion tunes (still never enough), and good session friends with a life that actually revolves around family and a job and othger interests that have nothing to do with Irish music. Though you'd never know it for all the time I spend in here
Do you know much about the Law of Diminishing Returns? I don't, but I sort of remember the analogy used in Business 101, let's say, of a certain candy bar, ie how much would you (or the general public) pay for the first bite, the second bite, etc & you can graph desire against expense or gratification, or something something, & predict a place where it balances out. That's how I feel with Irish music, like I can't get enough, & yet, I can see a time & place where it will fit neatly into my life, I hope, & not this excessively. But for now, I just can't get enough. I know myself well enough, like when I first got here I totally binged on astronomy, with this super cool telescope & wacky software. I haven't forsaken it completely, but I don't take the telescope out as much. I guess Irish music seems different to me b/c of family & social connections, the potential for travel, etc etc...
In any case, you are right about letting the music shape your life & not defining it. For the moment I'm enjoying being swallowed up by it, b/c let's face it, when you go back to the rat race, it's a different story about priorities & obligations. I'm secretly counting my blessings that I've found an activity I can give myself wholeheartedly to for a short duration & feel it is a solid investment in a lifelong joy, as well as a chance to catch up on time I may have feel I missed, or something. In any case, it will be a sweet moment to walk back into J. Patrick's pub one day & sit in on the Thursday night session with the 'big fish'... it's an image I can't seem to shake sometimes! I wonder if I'll then suffer the session bingeing that seems to be plaguing Dow...
Lovely responses! Helen is now more outgoing and trying to be less 'big-city/English' like. BluFiddle is a bit wider around the waist, but happier and kinder to strangers for it. Dow seems to attribute his declining health to sessions but wouldn't have it any other way. Emily_AZ has turned into a session/workshop hound with the help of some great sessioners. Berserker is unbashedly obsessed while Will is unashamedly not and ketida has firmly found her niche! Yes, I'm looking for personal growth (or retardation) stories in this thread! Great stuff so far!
I do think it's all part of the journey--the only people who get really good at this music go through a serious obsession with it at some stage. I'm not sure that I've completely come out of that, and maybe none of us ever does...seems there's always a part of your brain that's noodling on an old tune or learning a new one. But I've learned to be conversant on other topics in order to not estrange my wife and children
Diminishing returns--I think that does play a part, but mostly in terms of how many hours a day the instrument is in your hands. Seems to me you can reach a point where more practice won't make you any better, but time *away* from the instrument can lead to improvement. On the other hand, I haven't noticed the same effect with the body of tunes themselves. Sure, sometimes it helps to let a particular tune go idle for a spell and come back to it with fresh ears, but I've yet to reach a point of diminishing returns in running tunes through my head. There's still just too much to learn and enjoy.
O.K. I'm going to get all hippy-dippy. For me trad music is a way of life. Man, that sounds stupid. But, it really is. I've been involved with music since I can remember. I fell asleep every night to the sound of my father practicing piano below my bedroom. I found out the other day that he was accepted to Juliard but decided not to go because he didn't want music to be his life. He regrets it. But, I digress...
I've played other types of music seriously, but playing trad music is about so much more than music for me. It's provided a social group and a way of relating to people. It's made me more outgoing. And it's made me focused. I'm the kind of guy who was capable of being good at anything. So, naturally, I goofed off and was exceptional at nothing - talents buried in the sand. Well, trad music, being the obsession that it is commonly recognized as being, has forced me to focus. I've wanted to be a part of the socialization so much that I've had to focus on working towards improving.
Trad music can be a cruel lover. On the one hand, I've met some of the best people in the world through it. I've had more laughs and largely because of it I'm happier than I've ever been. But at times it's made me terribly insecure. I've had so many arguments with the wife because of binge sessioning. I've spent countless hours and dollars on something that most people don't appreciate or understand. I failed at self-employment because I got a tenor banjo for my birthday (banjos will be the ruin of us all). Oh, and I've gained about 20 lbs. because of beer and pub food (trying to work that off now...).
Hardest of all, at this point, is that all I want to do is something that I'll probably never be able to make a living at, even if I want to. I can't really seriously concentrate on much else. My economic future has never been more uncertain and I don't really care. That's o.k., though, I guess.
Despite all this, it's given me many gifts. It's given me the feeling of being a part of something bigger than myself - the feeling of community and of having something in common with people who otherwise may be very different from me. It's forced me to be more conscious of my body; I started taking Alexander Technique lessons and that's changed my whole world. It's made me learn more jokes and try to remember stories. I've learned to listen to old men and not to condescend to young upstarts. And best of all, I think, it's made me realize that's it's never really that bad; I can always learn another tune.
I agree that you can only obsess for so long. You can alienate everyone around you. And I think the music benefits from your experiences. That's why I think "The Music" isn't only about the music. It's about the books we read, people we love and things we hate. It's about the beauty that each of us can create and the petty, base things that we struggle to overcome. It's real. That's what makes it so great.
O.K. That's was REALLY new agey. My bulls__t sensor is beeping like a garbage truck with no breaks going backwards down a hill. But, I had this conversation last week with Caoimghgin (a.k.a. Kevin the Great) when he was visiting so I've had some time to think about it too much. Were we drunk at that point Kev? Probably. Anyway, Kev, I think the music has made you sexier. At least all the former porn stars that come to listen to your session think so. Well, all one of them. The young ones still prefer me but that's because flute is sexier than fiddle.
Oh, and Kev can bear witness that the music has made me some kind of small celebrity in the pub. I'm like Norm from Cheers. Sometimes I feel like the godfather. That's really funny if you know me.
Thanks Jeremy! Nice that you noticed! I feel sexier! And speaking of sexy, you hold those extra 20 pounds you've put on very well yourself! As it turns out, I think my porn star fan has moved on to greener pastures, so now I'm without any fans at all (long story guys).
Yes, we were well into our cups at the beginning of this conversation and the pints were virtually flying at the end of it. I've been thinking about that conversation too (or at least trying to remember it) but I do remember I didn't want it to end! Had a great time with you guys! Hope to see you soon.
Flute is NOT sexier than the fiddle, too many pinchy bits and not enough curves. Heh. Actually, Jeremy, I think you hit it on the head even if it was so new agey we'd be forced to throw drink coasters at your head in person. *snort* So I guess I'll join you: this stuff is somehow more than just music, it's sort of infused with a very Irish way of living life, and people have been endlessly fascinated with the Irish way of looking at the world for a very long time.
Music, as Will says, is only music. It's not worth losing your marriage over, it's not worth losing your self-respect in one way or another over. Truly, it's not even actually worth losing sleep over. (But I've done that.) But it's always there, and tapping into it is tapping into something bigger than yourself, and you become part of that bigger thing.
The more you live your life, the better a player you can become. Of course, practise helps with that too. Heh. Which makes me think of a postcard I just saw at a friend's photography studio -- two seniors sitting on a bike in full leathers and cigarettes dangling from their lips. It's captioned: play hard, live fast, stay regular.
Different in that my horizons have broadened. I came into ITM after a lifetime of classical music. My enjoyment of playing classical hasn't diminished at all, and my enjoyment of ITM increases by the week. Several decades of playing the cello gave me a useful headstart when it came to learning the fiddle, and now, 2 years down the road, there is useful feedback, both musically and technically, from the fiddle to the cello. Music (of either sort) occupies me about 4-5 evenings a week, a session often following on from an orchestral rehearsal, but, in my retirement I do have other interests completely outside music, so I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with any particular activity to the detriment of other activity or of family or social life.
Trevor
That's the true mark of an obsession--"4-5 nights a week" at one activity is not seen as "to the detriment of other activity or of family or social life." LOL, that's the addict's definition of D-E-N-I-A-L: Don't Even Know I Am Lying.
Actually, this tension between responsibilities and the music is as much a part of the tradition as the tunes themselves. Generations of tin smiths, spud farmers, shop keeps, doctors, horse traders, and priests have known the anxiety of *needing* to learn another tune, to sit in another session, all the while wondering how to pay the rent and put food on the table. For all but a few of us, the music's rewards are mostly intangible, invisible to our families and neighbors, and as habit-forming as breathing. This is what it means to be a session player.
Live precariously...anything else is just pretense.
The skills required in learning a tune by ear:focussing, concentration, prolongued repetition until you get it right and, above all, patience in mega-doses; All these are invaluable in our everyday non-musical activities.
I´ve noticed that the more tune learning I do, the more centered I am for other things.
Mike
10 years ago had already, played other kinds of music at a reasonable level, but I remember the frustration of not getting it right when entering the ITM session.. That's when I felt "different".
Now, after devoting a good number of odd hours to practice and having emptied my wallet on 100dreds of CDs I feel more "in sync" with the music and it has become a more natural part of life. In the beginning i remember the struggle of learning the quantities; now the pleasure comes from focusing on a selected few.
For me it's opened an incredible door. It's like the best kept secret in the world. The music has heart and a life of it's own. It has emotion that does something to my brain that touches my soul. It's a community that shapes the music and yet it’s individual. In the whole uniqueness of it, it impacts in your priorities and commitment to it. It changes your life if you really love it. But what makes you love it is how it touches you. We are a peculiar sort being drawn to this music anyway … don’t you think? At least I’m an odd bird. ha
You can take lessons with someone compared to the Rock equivalent of say Eric Clapton, but it wouldn’t happen in that genre of music. Top notch musicians teaching the foundation of the tradition and having fun doing it. I find that to be pretty awesome too. It has it a very interesting structure that’s intangible. It seems to me there is less ‘ego’ in this music. I could be wrong because I haven’t had all that much exposure.
Perhaps it might be sad to other people that it would mean so much to me. But it’s not like I’m unable to function in other aspects of my life. It’s a love for it and enjoyment that makes it a priority. It’s been an unforeseen enrichment in my life. Obsession or Passion – who knows. I prefer passion. I suppose I’m somewhat of an obsessive personality. But that works for me, in my dedication to it. If it weren’t for the way that the music itself touched me I wouldn’t have the dedication. Being more of an introvert it has brought me to be more outgoing.
I’ve spent a lot of money on it, invested a lot of time but overall it’s one of the most positive things in my life and it makes me happy.
Yep, Deb, I didn't mean to disparage anyone for being passionate about this music, 'cause obviously that'd be everyone here, including myself. Sorry if I came off a bit strong back there, but I've seen people ruin their health and marriages and careers over this stuff and that's a shame. On the other hand, a solid career needs to be ruined now and then or you forget you're alive, eh?
I like Murfbox's comments--music, and this music in particular, does give us powerful tools for other areas of our lives. In today's world, just the ability to be non-verbal for a spell is a great relief and knack to have. I used to think of music as an antidote to all the words I stacked up over the course of a day on the word processor, but now those non-verbal connections in my brain are as much a part of my stream of consciousness, and no "cure" is needed. Feels like it's more open minded than being so word- or image centric. Not that you could tell from my participation here
Will – No apology needed, I didn’t mean to come across as though I was offended. It was just my two cents. My experience is only a couple of years old. I’ve been to less than 10 sessions ever. I’ve been to workshops, classes, fiddle camps and try to practice a lot. No doubt you have more knowledge than I do. Your level of playing probably seeks something different than mine because I’ve got a long way to go to be a real session player. I’ve been fairly content to just learn to play and love the music. Which I’m guessing will change as I get to play better.
It certainly would be a shame if you life and health went down the tubes because of the music. Unlike you I haven’t seen that and hope I don’t. It almost does sound like a bad crack habit. Would you attribute that to sessions? Practice = better playing = sessions = messed up life (if you not careful) A bit of a scary prospect and maybe a good word of caution. I can appreciate that.
Will, maybe you could start a "Craicoholics Anonymous" group in Montana, and I could come along in August and get some advice for how to save my health and economic productivity levels!
There are two issues here - the shape of the flute and fiddle, and the sound of those instruments. As a man obviously I'm drawn to the appearance of the curvacious fiddle more than the phallic flute (cough, cough!). But I was thinking more of the sound. The fiddle has a more linear 'direct' sound than the flute and to my way of thinking is a more muscular, masculine sort of instrument. Whereas the flute is softer and more tickley(?) (Which makes it interesting that all but one of the flute players I know is male). And which maybe explains why out of three preferences given, two women vote fiddle sexier and the one man votes flute...
just a thought.
Helen, I'm with you girl!! Pipers have to be the sexiest folks alive! Where I live there are several pipers and they ALL are very sexy and extremely attractive in their own ways......sometimes it's just sheer torture for myself since I am married.....hey I'm wed, not dead.....If you ever visit our session and see me drooling, you'll know why ; )
LOL -- Oh, well, if we're talking about the PLAYERS... *snort* Personally, if we're talking about what kind of player is sexiest, it's definitely the player who's good at playing. I love watching (and listening) to anyone doing something really well, and watching anyone doing what they do very well is very sexy to me.
But male fiddle players are sort of the trad equivalent of the rock guitar gods, I've always thought... Pipers are kind of like the drummer in a rock band (they always get the girls who're fascinated by a certain kind of guy...).
I agree with you Zina!! Talented male fiddle players are devastatingly HOT.....not to mention some of the male flute players out there too................and you know who you are ; )
Oooo, the sexy fluters, Turlach Boylan, I'd do him like a shot if I was single! (This, of course, does not mean that Turlach would care to do ME...and yes, Turlach knows that I think that, because Mike Dugger told him I said that...never tell Mike Dugger anything you don't want the world to know...*snicker*) Fluters are like the bass player, because they tend to be quieter and women always want to pry *that* open to see what's inside...
It's all my fault. I hijacked the thread. But somehow I don't think Caioghwhatthef_ckever (Kevin, why couldn't you have picked an easier to spell secret identity? Like Superman. Or Bollix.) will mind.
Zina, I couldn't agree more with you regarding the piper fixation. I'm not particularly attracted to pipers as the only pipers I know personally are male, a shame really. But I have witnessed women swoon over pipers one too many times. They just have to hold the damn things in their arsty-fartsy paws and they're suddenly considered sexy. I love the pipes, but come on! And what is it with pipers and ponytails?
The flute is phallic; the fiddle has curves. The accordion, well, I can't even tell people that my wife is practicing on her box and keep a straight face. Bodhrans attract drummers. Enough said. Guitars and bouzoukis also have curves. I don't know what the concertina is all about. I guess it's also a box.
Now the pipes...
What was it the octopus said..."I don't know whether to play it or make love to it."
Ok, time for another internet break......I'm going to head back to the original topic. I had some time last night to think about it. I actually haven't changed much at all since playing the Music. I was originally a professional athlete flying all over the country to race road bikes. (knee injuries ended my career)
Sports and Music have a lot of similarities. I use to be completely obsessive compulsive about my racing, now I have transferred this energy to my music. I used to spend every minute of the day riding my bike or thinking about riding my bike. Now I do the same about playing tunes. I had tons of friends on the racing circuit. I am now making good friends in the music scene. I used to train with a hard-core group of young guys who used to push me to my physical limits. I now have a group of young guys who inspire me and push me to get better musically speaking. I could go on and on........I actually weigh less since I stopped bike racing since I'm also a compulsive dieter/ binge drinker...gosh maybe this is too much information.
Well I love reading about everyone else and their lives so I thought I'd reciprocate a little here.....I'm trying not to be such an internet "lurker"
To be honest, I've always found rich guys boring but these were usually men who weren't athletes or musicians.........(no offense to anyone who does have money)
Hmmm...which part of this thread to respond to, the freudian or the Tom Waits dilemma ("I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy")? Of course, they're related.
Well, it's the *music* that's the aphrodisiac, not the instruments. Let a body play Within a Mile of Dublin or Rakish Paddy with a modicum of swing and the groupies come running, even if it's on a piano accordion, which is about as sexy as the innards of an air conditioner.
Deb, I like your two step program, especially the "carry on as usual" part. But I'm not so sure about sessions being the root of the trouble. Sure, some folks stray afoul of their marriage vows because of how the fluter or fiddler across the circle fills his/her Levis, but more common is the strain of a spouse having to listen to the music, achingly played, at home for hours upon hours, day in, day out, when the perpetrator should be mowing the lawn (sorry, AJ or doing dishes, of folding laundry, or curled up in bed with aforementioned spouse.... As this thread clearly reveals, we're in love/lust with our instruments (and our mates justifiably resent that).
I do think you have more time in your life for other distractions once you've survived the deep obsessive stage with the music. A week off no longer means two weeks of trying to regain control of your instrument or memory of the tunes. It all just stays there, at the ready. I'm guessing this is because technique and the feel are finally as much a part of your involuntary nervous system as peristalsis and the music just has to come out
It's funny this topic should come up. When I was much younger I used to fall in love with every female fiddle player around Belfast. It helped that many of them were attractive anyway, but they were also talented musicians. I once confessed to a certain Joanne from Andersonstown that I used to have a crush on her when I was a lad. Luckily this confession was taken in the light-hearted spirit in which it was meant as we were both drunk at a Fleadh in Sligo. Of course now I'm much more mature in my outlook and don't confine my taste to fiddle players or anything like that. Any oul' bird with an instrument will do.
LOL -- how did I know that was Conán before I got to the thread? Jeremy and Brad, Turlach was teasing *me* about it last I saw him, so there. *grin* Feel free to rib him in return as much as you like and say that I said it was fair play.
Joyce, I know of a piper with loads of money, tall, blonde, handsome as sin and blue eyes to match. Most women don't find him boring atall, atall... ;) The vintage Mercedes might help, too...
Will, I think you're in denial about your own obsession with trad. You've lied to yourself so convincingly that you've brainwashed yourself into thinking you're perfectly normal and well-adjusted. I bet when we get to Helena we'll find you're just as bad if not worse.
In my opinion there have been some ordinary looking guys, who, because they play Irish music, it instantly makes them cuter (sexier, more handsome, etc.).
So why doesn't it work the same for women, fer cat's sake?! *snort* Insofar as I can tell, the famous fiddler's double chin is about the only appearance enhancing my fiddle does for me...
Odd that we've had the same discussion from the other angle--all those fiddlers out there with faces twisted in concentration, drool leaking onto their bow arms, beer stains on their shirts...I can just about hear Mike Myers's saying licking his Fat Bastard chops, crowing, "Ahm dead sexxxy." *snort*
Have come in late ....as usual, Sexy? No can't say that one makes sense...but
Different? I had nothing to do until I took up playing the music. Before, I listened, but that wasn't obsessive. It was something to do to fill in small gaps. BUT then I got a whistle and boy, those CDs just weren't out of the player. Then I got given a flute!! Then I took up the fiddle. Now? Bit like Will, I'm looking for another instrument to noodle this music with. (NO idea why though)
DO other sorts of music have the same profound effect on players? And is it just players? Like I said, I listened for years, then when beginning to play came the OBSESSION!
Wouldn’t we all make an amazing billion dollar, social governmental study? As all the team of expert head-shrinks try to put us into a defined box in a final report. Some being labeled as instrumentophiles or some such thing and clearly having a Freudian complex. A few obvious obsessive-compulsive disorders and addictive personalities. Finally, (after years of study) determining that we all have an unexplainable bug for this stuff.
It is rather interesting when looking at some of the responses. A couple of shy types being more interested to interact with other people. A few remarks implying a sort of obsession in some way. Just a fleeting thought, but then again you guy make me think too much. (Ha)
The different stages that you go through as you progress are interesting too. Maybe not obsessed after a period but a continued enthusiasm. Personally, I can’t wait for the timely phase where it’s as an intrinsic reflex and response. For me, a bit of way down the road.
Different? .....Not me, but the world has changed.
Just got back from Venice, the richest of pickings for all culture vultures. Arguably the most beautiful and most history-drenched city on this planet. Didn't miss The Music at all, but who'd think they would need it, when, in a city bereft of cars, nay, roads, but has just canals, that, at a glance at the Gondolas on the Grand Canal, you could be mistaken for having lost 500 years, and be right back in the Middle Ages...... that, when you have to choose which gallery to visit, your decision rests upon whether to view one containing Picassos, Kandinskys and Miros, or one with Titians and Carpaccios...
That said, driving to my session this evening I put on The Session (the one with The Brothers Glackin et al) tape and drunk deeply like a camel dying of thirst.
Besides that observation, all I can add is .... if ye take up this passion, be prepared for an existence, rather than corpulent, but one of impecunious obscurity.
Finally, William Blake's "Opportunity" may strike a chord with some:
He who bends to himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sunrise.
If you trap the moment before it's ripe,
The tears of repentance you'll certainly wipe;
But, if once you let the ripe moment go,
You can never wipe off the tears of woe.
Whoa...I see you soaked up quite a bit of that Venetian ambiance, Danny, you poetic souled heartbreaker, you. Welcome back home, and are you going to put pics up on your website of your trip? Been a while since i've listened to the Na Connery CDs, think that needs to be up next on the CD player, thanks for the reminder, Danny.
It's changed my married life a bit - I've become a husband and my husband's become a wife - I now have a beer gut and he keeps moaning that I spend too much time down the pub, and how we don't do things together anymore - of course, I escape the nagging by shutting myself up in the bedroom, playing, and keep going to the sessions. Well, not quite that bad, except for the beer gut, but there is a bit of resentment which must happen in any couple when one has an obsession outside the relationship. That does not mean it's unhealthy though, and I would not change that, except that I wish I'd got into the music years before I actually did.
From my understanding the Law of Diminishing Returns it's where the more effort you put into an activity, the less returns you get for your effort. I think it was first coined in managementspeak, but can be used for many human endeavours including practicing The Music, and also sports training which Joyce mentioned earlier, and of which I'll give an example to clarify my definition:
If you run eg 20 miles a week you could probably get a 10k time of, say, for argument's sake, 42 minutes.
If you increased your mileage to 30mpw, you might get down to 39 min.
At 40mpw you'll get maybe 37.5 min.
60 mpw you get 36.5 min,
and 80 mpw gets you just 35.75 min.
And so on...
These are made up times, but about the right ballpark for a 40+ year old male.
The point is, that twice, thrice or even four times the mileage, ie investment, produces an inceasingly diminished return.
The same applies for The Music, but as that can't be quantified in the way that running times can, that's why I used the running analogy.
Hoping I've not confounded peoples understanding even further,
Danny, interesting theory, and it make work for office type stuff and sports, but I don't think you can apply it to the arts and those kinds of human endeavors. Plus if there is a point of diminishing returns I would think it would be different for each individual depending on their skill level and how much they actually enjoy the activity. for me, the more I play, the better I sound, and the more I want to play as a result. Of course, we are not talking 6 hours a day here, but maybe an hour or two some days. Maube less, maybe more.
The problem with the running analogy is that it equates running faster with being able to play better. But we all know that being able to play better does not necessarily equate with enjoying playing more, especially with diddly music, which is relatively easy to play in the first place.
Don't gloss over Blake's brilliant poem quoted earlier:
"He who bends himself to joy,
does the winged life destroy ..."
Get down the pub and have a great time diddling. Then get on with the rest of your life.
Cath - seriously, if you start running, you'll loose the beer gut, I promise : ) I drink a lot of ales & stouts - those high caloric microbrews and Irish stouts but I also run no matter how hung over or sh*tty I feel the next morning. It's a balancing act.
So, let's leave the beer guts for our husbands ; )
Yeah, but I was merely clarifying, to the best of my knowledge, what the law of diminishing returns was and using running as an example, as there are less factors involved and Times are an easy index as to improvement.
However I do maintain that Our Stuff obeys the Law, but the improvement parameters are much more nebulous, such data less abstractable, and in any case, to try and do so would the height of reductionism.
But, put simply, if you don't or rarely practice, you're likely to remain a beginner.
If you practice a bit, and sit in at the odd session, you'll get quite good.
If you practice a lot, and go to a fair number of sessions, you'll get pretty good. That's probably like most people here.
But...if you practice loads and loads and loads...and go to every session and workshop going, the chances are.....
....you'll possibly get a little bit better than the medium people. There's probably a few craic-addicts around like that.
Dunno about that one Domhniaill Mac Aoidh. If the above statement were true, then every classical or jazz musician would be a real horror to listen to (these people, who I believe spend several hours a day playing to keep their edge).
Kevin (and Andee), what Danny-boy is getting at is that the law of diminishing returns might kick in for most folks at anything beyond 3-5 hours a day of practice. Anything more than that, and the "improvement" you're likely to see, if any, won't be of the same proportion as you see from those first 3-5 hours.
In short, even if you could practice 6-10 hours a day, you'd not get appreciably "better" (whatever that is), though you probably won't get any worse. On the other hand, you might create all sorts of problems for yourself--repetitive stress injuries, mental and emotional burnout, social deprivation, etc.
We're talking in vague, roundish numbers here because the "optimal" amount of playing will vary from person to person, and probably even vary over time for the same person. I know I don't need to play as much to stay fresh as I did 10 or even just 5 years ago. Seems like in the beginning, most of us need to cram a bunch of hours in to coordinate and refine all the physical skills needed to play an instrument. But once your technique reaches a certain level, that time can be shifted to learning tunes, exploring musical ideas, chatting up the vixen in the next chair, etc. Even when I pick up a new physical skill on fiddle these days, it doesn't take near as long to learn as it would've in the beginning. The more experience you have, the easier it is to cross reference new skills and ideas to already familiar ones.
There's also a lot to be said for the *quality* of your playing time, as opposed to simply amassing a large quantity of hours scratching away. I highly recommend "Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician Within" by jazz pianist Kenny Werner (available thru Amazon.com--use Jeremy's link) for strategies to make your practicing and playing more productive, efficient, and enjoyable. (Some of the book is a bit New-Agey, and definitely jazz oriented, but the shift in attitude will work for any musician, and it's an easy read. You even get a cd of "meditations" and exercises to help focus.)
That's probably the biggest difference this music has made in me--I used to approach most new things in life as physical skills and information processing. Now I focus on enjoying the learning process and letting the physical side take care of itself. I no longer worry about how "fast" or "slow" I am to learn something, and I'm better at recognizing and playing to my own strengths. Akin to the rewards murfbox gave above, these are welcome lessons in life....
Thanks for pulling me out of the hole, Will, buddy.
I must add, though, that someone else mentioned the Law of Diminishing Returns ages ago at the top of this thread but wasn't very clear about the definition. I merely tried to define it and thought it might have a useful application in The Music.
Danny, t'wasn't a hole you were in so much as standing on level ground while others shoveled misunderstandings up around you. (No offense to Kevin or anyone else--I suspect Danny and I are both just thinking aloud about this diminishing returns thing because it's interesting to loquacious ob-comp sociopaths like ourselves....
Cheers for good advice Joyce - I've started doing weight lifting to build up my arms muscles (needed for the fiddle) and sit ups (my slight asthmatic condition means running is a last resort) . Husband has no beer gut but he's not bothered by mine strangely enough. He's more bothered by the fact that I disappear to play music with friends and like minded people.
He's not driven enough to work on his guitar playing so feels uncomfortable at sessions, that's where HE's different.
Yes, a get a real buzz from playing which I don't get so much from playing other styles of music. It'a also a verycommunal, social form of music. It enhances my life, as it is another form of art, a bit like poetry. You can express yourself through it, put your all into playing, and on a more light-hearted note (no pun intended) you can enjoy a good pint and a chat.
Are you different?
Are you different?
So here you are. Maybe you've played for a few years, perhaps more, hopefully improving and having a great time playing with friends at your respective 'locals'. Does anyone have the general feeling that you are now a bit different than you used to be before you decided to lock yourself up in a closet and play your fiddle, accordian, flute, box (or whatever) for hours a day to learn yet another new tune, perfect an old workhorse, etc.? As corny as this may sound, how has your life changed from what you knew it to be before you began all this Irish-Trad nonsense?
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Caoimghgin
Re: Are you different?
Well, maybe it was different for me because I was a stepdancer first. So all this stuff was pretty much around. My obsessions are different, I have less time now to do some of the other stuff I was doing before (and I'm not doing some of it now). I'm not different, not in the ways you're talking about, I think, Kev, but on the other hand, my world looks different than it did before I began dancing and playing.
Zina
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
Yes! But it's not so much the playing (or singing) that's changed my life, I've always been involved in music. It's the wonderful conviviality of it. Believe me, the world of struggling indie-bands is just not the same - it's full of arrogant macho w******s for a start. It's just been remarkable to me, how over the last year I've met so many people through the music, and now if I go to a session or a gig, there are people there that I know, and it's kind of like an extended family... and 95% of them are friendly, decent people! Now, some of you may have lived in that kind of environment all your lives, but I am a middle-class British person (for current purposes, you can read that as English) and am used to rather reserved social environments. Also, I live in London, where the habit is to ignore the people around you on the street, on the tube, etc, with complete impassive blankness - even if they address you directly, since that probably means they're either mad or on the scrounge.
I had a road-to-Damascus moment in Miltown last year. People would say 'how're you doing' when they passed on the road, and for the first couple of days, I was taken by surprise, and half of the time, too slow to respond and take that impassive mask off my face. I suddenly realised what city life had turned me into. (I did grow up in the Welsh countryside, where it would be normal to acknowledge another person passing you on the road, even in a car). I was quite horrified to see that my conditioned reflex was to avoid social contact.
From that moment on I made a concious effort to get past that barrier, although I am a shy person and it doesn't come easily. However, I now consider it normal to say 'hello' to a complete strangers at a session, instead of lurking in the corner with averted gaze...
So it's partly the social connection of the music and that extended-family phenomenon, and it's partly what you might call the Irish Influence, but I'm definately more relaxed than I was before, though it might not look like it. (I'm hardly a riotous party beast...)
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Nell
Re: Are you different?
Seriously? Well, a regular diet of sessions has left me fatter, paler-skinned, smellier, more incoherent, more forgetful, even more economically unproductive (which is remarkable for a freelance writer!), more sleep-deprived...and happier than I was before. Kev, is that what you mean?
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
definitely fatter, paler-skinned, more sleep-deprived, and happier
)) hehehe 
))
I think I've become kinder too.....I used to be more isolated and scared to even walk up to someone and say hi, but now I am happier and nicer, I've learned to appreciate people more and have learned that listening can be a powerful tool in life and happiness.
yeah, that sort of made sense, it's all typed up in my head...just kind of hard to explain it in words, I guess
-Karen
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by BluFiddle
Re: Are you different?
I noticed that i became more compulisve as i started to play more. i try to play whenever! In terms of being social i probably moved down cause i think about music 85% of my day.
and I am always tired from the gig on the previous day but i make up for that in amth class!
AJ
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by berserker
Re: Are you different?
What a marvellous question!
Although music has been a part of my life (sometimes more, sometimes less) since I was six (and that's a VERY long time ago)...Since I have really become focused on ITM, I am enjoying my music more than any other time in my life...including when I was young, footloose, fancy-free, and doing it for a living in the paradise known as the USVI's.
I have grown more both as a musician, and personally, in the past 15 months that I have devoted to ITM, than with any other style of music I have studied. I truly feel as though I have come home. After only slightly more than a year, I feel confident that I have found my niche, at last...who knows where it will take me, and who cares, when you've found the love of your life?
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by ketida
Re: Are you different?
Don't forget "poorer", Will -- those bar tabs add up...
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
I mean, let's call a spade a spade here...
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
Although I enjoy what trad does for my social life, it makes me drink too much alcohol and I have to cope with hangovers too often. Also money seems to disappear too quickly. Going to sessions makes me smoke, especially if bb's around. Sessions are really bad for my health I've decided. Aside from the health issues, I never seem to get enough work done these days, because I'd much rather sit and learn a new tune than work.
You know, looking at what I've written above, it would be better for me if I gave up playing and became a goody-goody, but that's not going to happen.
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Dow
Re: Are you different?
Hmmm....
We should come up with a shorthand for 'Ottery's mate's plan' (OMP?), b/c I'm on that too. When I left civilization (read: where alcohol is legal), I had played in an Irish band for a year as a lark, but was never really serious. But having found a core group of loyalists out here, almost all my vacation leave is devoted to seeking out sessions & workshops, my spare time playing & learning as much as I can (ie surfing here), & spending my spare dollars on my instruments, their maintenance & my CD collection. (Just got 6 more from ebay for under $28!) Additionally, appalled at the acoustics of my main playing area, I've torn out the carpet & redesigned my living space, including moving my computer adjacent to my playing area b/c I learn so many tunes off this darn thing. Also to have proximity to downloading sessions off minidisc & burning CDs.
So yeah, I'm pretty different. I'm putting my years of rural seclusion to good use! But I have to say, I never would have made it this far without at least one other muso to practice with, so Julie, if you're out there, thank you for being as obsessed as me, to Marc for being an amazing backer, to Kristen for ordering her goofy bodhran from Ireland with incompatible videocassette, Katie for loaning me so many CDs to help stoke the fire & also for your amazing singing voice, plus all the migratory peeps who have made my house sessions such a blast. (I'm leaving the bones player out of this.)
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Are you different?
Zina, in my town, players get their beer for free! I'm poorer only because I never work...seems I'm always transcribing tunes for people stymied by ear learning.
My first post was meant as a jest, but it's pretty close to the truth, too. But I've played music nearly all my life (just drifting from one instrument to the next to make sure I never get the hang of any of them), so the mindset doesn't feel "different," just who I am. Tho this music has allowed me a better expressive outlet than bluegrass ever did. It's good to know a music that has tunes appropriate for whatever mood I'm in.
As much as it shapes my life, I don't feel at all defined by this music. Music is something I do, not who I am. It's good to be obsessive about it when you're starting on the learning curve, but sometimes I feel sorry for people who eat, sleep, and breathe this stuff because there's so much "else" to life. Maybe this is obvious and silly for me to say (or heretical--which?!), but it's wonderful to be able to fit in weekly sessions, a bazillion tunes (still never enough), and good session friends with a life that actually revolves around family and a job and othger interests that have nothing to do with Irish music. Though you'd never know it for all the time I spend in here
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
Will, I'm so glad you wrote that.
Do you know much about the Law of Diminishing Returns? I don't, but I sort of remember the analogy used in Business 101, let's say, of a certain candy bar, ie how much would you (or the general public) pay for the first bite, the second bite, etc & you can graph desire against expense or gratification, or something something, & predict a place where it balances out. That's how I feel with Irish music, like I can't get enough, & yet, I can see a time & place where it will fit neatly into my life, I hope, & not this excessively. But for now, I just can't get enough. I know myself well enough, like when I first got here I totally binged on astronomy, with this super cool telescope & wacky software. I haven't forsaken it completely, but I don't take the telescope out as much. I guess Irish music seems different to me b/c of family & social connections, the potential for travel, etc etc...
In any case, you are right about letting the music shape your life & not defining it. For the moment I'm enjoying being swallowed up by it, b/c let's face it, when you go back to the rat race, it's a different story about priorities & obligations. I'm secretly counting my blessings that I've found an activity I can give myself wholeheartedly to for a short duration & feel it is a solid investment in a lifelong joy, as well as a chance to catch up on time I may have feel I missed, or something. In any case, it will be a sweet moment to walk back into J. Patrick's pub one day & sit in on the Thursday night session with the 'big fish'... it's an image I can't seem to shake sometimes! I wonder if I'll then suffer the session bingeing that seems to be plaguing Dow...
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: Are you different?
Lovely responses! Helen is now more outgoing and trying to be less 'big-city/English' like. BluFiddle is a bit wider around the waist, but happier and kinder to strangers for it. Dow seems to attribute his declining health to sessions but wouldn't have it any other way. Emily_AZ has turned into a session/workshop hound with the help of some great sessioners. Berserker is unbashedly obsessed while Will is unashamedly not and ketida has firmly found her niche! Yes, I'm looking for personal growth (or retardation) stories in this thread! Great stuff so far!
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Caoimghgin
Re: Are you different?
I do think it's all part of the journey--the only people who get really good at this music go through a serious obsession with it at some stage. I'm not sure that I've completely come out of that, and maybe none of us ever does...seems there's always a part of your brain that's noodling on an old tune or learning a new one. But I've learned to be conversant on other topics in order to not estrange my wife and children
Diminishing returns--I think that does play a part, but mostly in terms of how many hours a day the instrument is in your hands. Seems to me you can reach a point where more practice won't make you any better, but time *away* from the instrument can lead to improvement. On the other hand, I haven't noticed the same effect with the body of tunes themselves. Sure, sometimes it helps to let a particular tune go idle for a spell and come back to it with fresh ears, but I've yet to reach a point of diminishing returns in running tunes through my head. There's still just too much to learn and enjoy.
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
Hi. My name is Jeremy. And I'm a craicoholic.
O.K. I'm going to get all hippy-dippy. For me trad music is a way of life. Man, that sounds stupid. But, it really is. I've been involved with music since I can remember. I fell asleep every night to the sound of my father practicing piano below my bedroom. I found out the other day that he was accepted to Juliard but decided not to go because he didn't want music to be his life. He regrets it. But, I digress...
I've played other types of music seriously, but playing trad music is about so much more than music for me. It's provided a social group and a way of relating to people. It's made me more outgoing. And it's made me focused. I'm the kind of guy who was capable of being good at anything. So, naturally, I goofed off and was exceptional at nothing - talents buried in the sand. Well, trad music, being the obsession that it is commonly recognized as being, has forced me to focus. I've wanted to be a part of the socialization so much that I've had to focus on working towards improving.
Trad music can be a cruel lover. On the one hand, I've met some of the best people in the world through it. I've had more laughs and largely because of it I'm happier than I've ever been. But at times it's made me terribly insecure. I've had so many arguments with the wife because of binge sessioning. I've spent countless hours and dollars on something that most people don't appreciate or understand. I failed at self-employment because I got a tenor banjo for my birthday (banjos will be the ruin of us all). Oh, and I've gained about 20 lbs. because of beer and pub food (trying to work that off now...).
Hardest of all, at this point, is that all I want to do is something that I'll probably never be able to make a living at, even if I want to. I can't really seriously concentrate on much else. My economic future has never been more uncertain and I don't really care. That's o.k., though, I guess.
Despite all this, it's given me many gifts. It's given me the feeling of being a part of something bigger than myself - the feeling of community and of having something in common with people who otherwise may be very different from me. It's forced me to be more conscious of my body; I started taking Alexander Technique lessons and that's changed my whole world. It's made me learn more jokes and try to remember stories. I've learned to listen to old men and not to condescend to young upstarts. And best of all, I think, it's made me realize that's it's never really that bad; I can always learn another tune.
I agree that you can only obsess for so long. You can alienate everyone around you. And I think the music benefits from your experiences. That's why I think "The Music" isn't only about the music. It's about the books we read, people we love and things we hate. It's about the beauty that each of us can create and the petty, base things that we struggle to overcome. It's real. That's what makes it so great.
O.K. That's was REALLY new agey. My bulls__t sensor is beeping like a garbage truck with no breaks going backwards down a hill. But, I had this conversation last week with Caoimghgin (a.k.a. Kevin the Great) when he was visiting so I've had some time to think about it too much. Were we drunk at that point Kev? Probably. Anyway, Kev, I think the music has made you sexier. At least all the former porn stars that come to listen to your session think so. Well, all one of them. The young ones still prefer me but that's because flute is sexier than fiddle.
Oh, and Kev can bear witness that the music has made me some kind of small celebrity in the pub. I'm like Norm from Cheers. Sometimes I feel like the godfather. That's really funny if you know me.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by jerball
Re: Are you different?
Thanks Jeremy! Nice that you noticed! I feel sexier! And speaking of sexy, you hold those extra 20 pounds you've put on very well yourself!
As it turns out, I think my porn star fan has moved on to greener pastures, so now I'm without any fans at all (long story guys).
Yes, we were well into our cups at the beginning of this conversation and the pints were virtually flying at the end of it. I've been thinking about that conversation too (or at least trying to remember it) but I do remember I didn't want it to end! Had a great time with you guys! Hope to see you soon.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Caoimghgin
Re: Are you different?
Flute is NOT sexier than the fiddle, too many pinchy bits and not enough curves. Heh. Actually, Jeremy, I think you hit it on the head even if it was so new agey we'd be forced to throw drink coasters at your head in person. *snort* So I guess I'll join you: this stuff is somehow more than just music, it's sort of infused with a very Irish way of living life, and people have been endlessly fascinated with the Irish way of looking at the world for a very long time.
Music, as Will says, is only music. It's not worth losing your marriage over, it's not worth losing your self-respect in one way or another over. Truly, it's not even actually worth losing sleep over. (But I've done that.) But it's always there, and tapping into it is tapping into something bigger than yourself, and you become part of that bigger thing.
The more you live your life, the better a player you can become. Of course, practise helps with that too. Heh. Which makes me think of a postcard I just saw at a friend's photography studio -- two seniors sitting on a bike in full leathers and cigarettes dangling from their lips. It's captioned: play hard, live fast, stay regular.
zls
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
Different in that my horizons have broadened. I came into ITM after a lifetime of classical music. My enjoyment of playing classical hasn't diminished at all, and my enjoyment of ITM increases by the week. Several decades of playing the cello gave me a useful headstart when it came to learning the fiddle, and now, 2 years down the road, there is useful feedback, both musically and technically, from the fiddle to the cello. Music (of either sort) occupies me about 4-5 evenings a week, a session often following on from an orchestral rehearsal, but, in my retirement I do have other interests completely outside music, so I wouldn't say I'm obsessed with any particular activity to the detriment of other activity or of family or social life.
Trevor
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Are you different?
That's the true mark of an obsession--"4-5 nights a week" at one activity is not seen as "to the detriment of other activity or of family or social life." LOL, that's the addict's definition of D-E-N-I-A-L: Don't Even Know I Am Lying.
Actually, this tension between responsibilities and the music is as much a part of the tradition as the tunes themselves. Generations of tin smiths, spud farmers, shop keeps, doctors, horse traders, and priests have known the anxiety of *needing* to learn another tune, to sit in another session, all the while wondering how to pay the rent and put food on the table. For all but a few of us, the music's rewards are mostly intangible, invisible to our families and neighbors, and as habit-forming as breathing. This is what it means to be a session player.
Live precariously...anything else is just pretense.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
So if you don't live precariously, you are living pretentiously? *snort*
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
The skills required in learning a tune by ear:focussing, concentration, prolongued repetition until you get it right and, above all, patience in mega-doses; All these are invaluable in our everyday non-musical activities.
I´ve noticed that the more tune learning I do, the more centered I am for other things.
Mike
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by murfbox
Re: Are you different?
10 years ago had already, played other kinds of music at a reasonable level, but I remember the frustration of not getting it right when entering the ITM session.. That's when I felt "different".
Now, after devoting a good number of odd hours to practice and having emptied my wallet on 100dreds of CDs I feel more "in sync" with the music and it has become a more natural part of life. In the beginning i remember the struggle of learning the quantities; now the pleasure comes from focusing on a selected few.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by FiddleTramp
Re: Are you different?
Come on Zina, of course the flute is more sexy than a fiddle...
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Are you different?
For me it's opened an incredible door. It's like the best kept secret in the world. The music has heart and a life of it's own. It has emotion that does something to my brain that touches my soul. It's a community that shapes the music and yet it’s individual. In the whole uniqueness of it, it impacts in your priorities and commitment to it. It changes your life if you really love it. But what makes you love it is how it touches you. We are a peculiar sort being drawn to this music anyway … don’t you think? At least I’m an odd bird. ha
You can take lessons with someone compared to the Rock equivalent of say Eric Clapton, but it wouldn’t happen in that genre of music. Top notch musicians teaching the foundation of the tradition and having fun doing it. I find that to be pretty awesome too. It has it a very interesting structure that’s intangible. It seems to me there is less ‘ego’ in this music. I could be wrong because I haven’t had all that much exposure.
Perhaps it might be sad to other people that it would mean so much to me. But it’s not like I’m unable to function in other aspects of my life. It’s a love for it and enjoyment that makes it a priority. It’s been an unforeseen enrichment in my life. Obsession or Passion – who knows. I prefer passion. I suppose I’m somewhat of an obsessive personality. But that works for me, in my dedication to it. If it weren’t for the way that the music itself touched me I wouldn’t have the dedication. Being more of an introvert it has brought me to be more outgoing.
I’ve spent a lot of money on it, invested a lot of time but overall it’s one of the most positive things in my life and it makes me happy.
Deb
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by deblittle
Re: Are you different?
Yep, Deb, I didn't mean to disparage anyone for being passionate about this music, 'cause obviously that'd be everyone here, including myself. Sorry if I came off a bit strong back there, but I've seen people ruin their health and marriages and careers over this stuff and that's a shame. On the other hand, a solid career needs to be ruined now and then or you forget you're alive, eh?
I like Murfbox's comments--music, and this music in particular, does give us powerful tools for other areas of our lives. In today's world, just the ability to be non-verbal for a spell is a great relief and knack to have. I used to think of music as an antidote to all the words I stacked up over the course of a day on the word processor, but now those non-verbal connections in my brain are as much a part of my stream of consciousness, and no "cure" is needed. Feels like it's more open minded than being so word- or image centric. Not that you could tell from my participation here
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
Huh, ottery, I still say no way, but then I guess it depends on whether you're into phallic symbols or curves, yes? *grin*
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
Will – No apology needed, I didn’t mean to come across as though I was offended. It was just my two cents. My experience is only a couple of years old. I’ve been to less than 10 sessions ever. I’ve been to workshops, classes, fiddle camps and try to practice a lot. No doubt you have more knowledge than I do. Your level of playing probably seeks something different than mine because I’ve got a long way to go to be a real session player. I’ve been fairly content to just learn to play and love the music. Which I’m guessing will change as I get to play better.
It certainly would be a shame if you life and health went down the tubes because of the music. Unlike you I haven’t seen that and hope I don’t. It almost does sound like a bad crack habit. Would you attribute that to sessions? Practice = better playing = sessions = messed up life (if you not careful) A bit of a scary prospect and maybe a good word of caution. I can appreciate that.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by deblittle
Re: Are you different?
Will, maybe you could start a "Craicoholics Anonymous" group in Montana, and I could come along in August and get some advice for how to save my health and economic productivity levels!
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Dow
Re: Are you different?
I agree with Zina - fiddle sexier. Sorry Ottery!
On the other hand, neither of them can compete with the pipes for sheer, hair-raising sex appeal...
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Nell
Re: Are you different?
We could have a 100% success rate with a two step program.
# 1 - Admit you have a problem.
# 2 - Carry on as usual.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by deblittle
Re: Are you different?
There are two issues here - the shape of the flute and fiddle, and the sound of those instruments. As a man obviously I'm drawn to the appearance of the curvacious fiddle more than the phallic flute (cough, cough!). But I was thinking more of the sound. The fiddle has a more linear 'direct' sound than the flute and to my way of thinking is a more muscular, masculine sort of instrument. Whereas the flute is softer and more tickley(?) (Which makes it interesting that all but one of the flute players I know is male). And which maybe explains why out of three preferences given, two women vote fiddle sexier and the one man votes flute...
just a thought.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Are you different?
I also tend to think of the instrument as an extension of myself. That would be why I play flute.
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by jerball
Re: Are you different?
Helen, I'm with you girl!! Pipers have to be the sexiest folks alive! Where I live there are several pipers and they ALL are very sexy and extremely attractive in their own ways......sometimes it's just sheer torture for myself since I am married.....hey I'm wed, not dead.....If you ever visit our session and see me drooling, you'll know why ; )
Joyce
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by JMH
Re: Are you different?
LOL -- Oh, well, if we're talking about the PLAYERS... *snort* Personally, if we're talking about what kind of player is sexiest, it's definitely the player who's good at playing. I love watching (and listening) to anyone doing something really well, and watching anyone doing what they do very well is very sexy to me.
But male fiddle players are sort of the trad equivalent of the rock guitar gods, I've always thought...
Pipers are kind of like the drummer in a rock band (they always get the girls who're fascinated by a certain kind of guy...).
zls
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Zina Lee
Hijack! Hijack!
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
I agree with you Zina!! Talented male fiddle players are devastatingly HOT.....not to mention some of the male flute players out there too................and you know who you are ; )
Ok back to work before I get fired....lol.......
Joyce
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by JMH
Re: Are you different?
Oooo, the sexy fluters, Turlach Boylan, I'd do him like a shot if I was single! (This, of course, does not mean that Turlach would care to do ME...and yes, Turlach knows that I think that, because Mike Dugger told him I said that...never tell Mike Dugger anything you don't want the world to know...*snicker*) Fluters are like the bass player, because they tend to be quieter and women always want to pry *that* open to see what's inside...
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
Hmm, I think posting something on the internet is a much better way of getting your message out than telling Mike
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Brad Maloney
Re: Are you different?
It's all my fault. I hijacked the thread. But somehow I don't think Caioghwhatthef_ckever (Kevin, why couldn't you have picked an easier to spell secret identity? Like Superman. Or Bollix.) will mind.
Zina, I couldn't agree more with you regarding the piper fixation. I'm not particularly attracted to pipers as the only pipers I know personally are male, a shame really. But I have witnessed women swoon over pipers one too many times. They just have to hold the damn things in their arsty-fartsy paws and they're suddenly considered sexy. I love the pipes, but come on! And what is it with pipers and ponytails?
The flute is phallic; the fiddle has curves. The accordion, well, I can't even tell people that my wife is practicing on her box and keep a straight face. Bodhrans attract drummers. Enough said. Guitars and bouzoukis also have curves. I don't know what the concertina is all about. I guess it's also a box.
Now the pipes...
What was it the octopus said..."I don't know whether to play it or make love to it."
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by jerball
Re: Are you different?
HaHa. Turlach on the rocks. I'm going to see him in a few weeks. I wonder if this conversation will have reached his ears.
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by jerball
Re: Are you different?
I think some women may like guys who play the pipes because it means they probably have a lot of money. A cheap full set cost more than my car.
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Brad Maloney
Re: Are you different?
Ok, time for another internet break......I'm going to head back to the original topic. I had some time last night to think about it. I actually haven't changed much at all since playing the Music. I was originally a professional athlete flying all over the country to race road bikes. (knee injuries ended my career)
Sports and Music have a lot of similarities. I use to be completely obsessive compulsive about my racing, now I have transferred this energy to my music. I used to spend every minute of the day riding my bike or thinking about riding my bike. Now I do the same about playing tunes. I had tons of friends on the racing circuit. I am now making good friends in the music scene. I used to train with a hard-core group of young guys who used to push me to my physical limits. I now have a group of young guys who inspire me and push me to get better musically speaking. I could go on and on........I actually weigh less since I stopped bike racing since I'm also a compulsive dieter/ binge drinker...gosh maybe this is too much information.
Well I love reading about everyone else and their lives so I thought I'd reciprocate a little here.....I'm trying not to be such an internet "lurker"
Joyce
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by JMH
this site is dangerously addicting : )
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by JMH
Re: Are you different?
To be honest, I've always found rich guys boring but these were usually men who weren't athletes or musicians.........(no offense to anyone who does have money)
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by JMH
Re: Are you different?
Hmmm...which part of this thread to respond to, the freudian or the Tom Waits dilemma ("I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy")? Of course, they're related.
Well, it's the *music* that's the aphrodisiac, not the instruments. Let a body play Within a Mile of Dublin or Rakish Paddy with a modicum of swing and the groupies come running, even if it's on a piano accordion, which is about as sexy as the innards of an air conditioner.
Deb, I like your two step program, especially the "carry on as usual" part. But I'm not so sure about sessions being the root of the trouble. Sure, some folks stray afoul of their marriage vows because of how the fluter or fiddler across the circle fills his/her Levis, but more common is the strain of a spouse having to listen to the music, achingly played, at home for hours upon hours, day in, day out, when the perpetrator should be mowing the lawn (sorry, AJ
or doing dishes, of folding laundry, or curled up in bed with aforementioned spouse.... As this thread clearly reveals, we're in love/lust with our instruments (and our mates justifiably resent that).
I do think you have more time in your life for other distractions once you've survived the deep obsessive stage with the music. A week off no longer means two weeks of trying to regain control of your instrument or memory of the tunes. It all just stays there, at the ready. I'm guessing this is because technique and the feel are finally as much a part of your involuntary nervous system as peristalsis and the music just has to come out
And there's no holding back that urge....
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
It's funny this topic should come up. When I was much younger I used to fall in love with every female fiddle player around Belfast. It helped that many of them were attractive anyway, but they were also talented musicians. I once confessed to a certain Joanne from Andersonstown that I used to have a crush on her when I was a lad. Luckily this confession was taken in the light-hearted spirit in which it was meant as we were both drunk at a Fleadh in Sligo. Of course now I'm much more mature in my outlook and don't confine my taste to fiddle players or anything like that. Any oul' bird with an instrument will do.
Conán
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Are you different?
LOL -- how did I know that was Conán before I got to the thread? Jeremy and Brad, Turlach was teasing *me* about it last I saw him, so there. *grin* Feel free to rib him in return as much as you like and say that I said it was fair play.
Joyce, I know of a piper with loads of money, tall, blonde, handsome as sin and blue eyes to match. Most women don't find him boring atall, atall... ;) The vintage Mercedes might help, too...
zls
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Zina Lee
P.S. Will
Pretty good for a guy whose female session mates were starting to think he was making up his wife to fend them all off... *snort*
zls
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
Yeah, I'm handsome as sin too, but unfortunately it happens to be gluttony...not one of the prettier sins, eh?
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
Will, I think you're in denial about your own obsession with trad. You've lied to yourself so convincingly that you've brainwashed yourself into thinking you're perfectly normal and well-adjusted. I bet when we get to Helena we'll find you're just as bad if not worse.
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Dow
Re: Are you different?
Did my constant lurking presence here give me away?
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
In my opinion there have been some ordinary looking guys, who, because they play Irish music, it instantly makes them cuter (sexier, more handsome, etc.).
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Andee
Re: Are you different?
So why doesn't it work the same for women, fer cat's sake?! *snort* Insofar as I can tell, the famous fiddler's double chin is about the only appearance enhancing my fiddle does for me...
# Posted on May 31st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
Odd that we've had the same discussion from the other angle--all those fiddlers out there with faces twisted in concentration, drool leaking onto their bow arms, beer stains on their shirts...I can just about hear Mike Myers's saying licking his Fat Bastard chops, crowing, "Ahm dead sexxxy." *snort*
# Posted on May 31st 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
Have come in late ....as usual, Sexy? No can't say that one makes sense...but
Different? I had nothing to do until I took up playing the music. Before, I listened, but that wasn't obsessive. It was something to do to fill in small gaps. BUT then I got a whistle and boy, those CDs just weren't out of the player. Then I got given a flute!! Then I took up the fiddle. Now? Bit like Will, I'm looking for another instrument to noodle this music with. (NO idea why though)
DO other sorts of music have the same profound effect on players? And is it just players? Like I said, I listened for years, then when beginning to play came the OBSESSION!
# Posted on June 1st 2003 by Susie-Lee
Re: Are you different?
Wouldn’t we all make an amazing billion dollar, social governmental study? As all the team of expert head-shrinks try to put us into a defined box in a final report. Some being labeled as instrumentophiles or some such thing and clearly having a Freudian complex. A few obvious obsessive-compulsive disorders and addictive personalities. Finally, (after years of study) determining that we all have an unexplainable bug for this stuff.
It is rather interesting when looking at some of the responses. A couple of shy types being more interested to interact with other people. A few remarks implying a sort of obsession in some way. Just a fleeting thought, but then again you guy make me think too much. (Ha)
The different stages that you go through as you progress are interesting too. Maybe not obsessed after a period but a continued enthusiasm. Personally, I can’t wait for the timely phase where it’s as an intrinsic reflex and response. For me, a bit of way down the road.
Deb
# Posted on June 1st 2003 by deblittle
Different? .....Not me, but the world has changed.
Just got back from Venice, the richest of pickings for all culture vultures. Arguably the most beautiful and most history-drenched city on this planet. Didn't miss The Music at all, but who'd think they would need it, when, in a city bereft of cars, nay, roads, but has just canals, that, at a glance at the Gondolas on the Grand Canal, you could be mistaken for having lost 500 years, and be right back in the Middle Ages...... that, when you have to choose which gallery to visit, your decision rests upon whether to view one containing Picassos, Kandinskys and Miros, or one with Titians and Carpaccios...
That said, driving to my session this evening I put on The Session (the one with The Brothers Glackin et al) tape and drunk deeply like a camel dying of thirst.
Besides that observation, all I can add is .... if ye take up this passion, be prepared for an existence, rather than corpulent, but one of impecunious obscurity.
Finally, William Blake's "Opportunity" may strike a chord with some:
He who bends to himself a joy
Does the winged life destroy;
But he who kisses the joy as it flies
Lives in eternity's sunrise.
If you trap the moment before it's ripe,
The tears of repentance you'll certainly wipe;
But, if once you let the ripe moment go,
You can never wipe off the tears of woe.
Danny.
# Posted on June 1st 2003 by Nick Splease
Re: Are you different?
Whoa...I see you soaked up quite a bit of that Venetian ambiance, Danny, you poetic souled heartbreaker, you.
Welcome back home, and are you going to put pics up on your website of your trip? Been a while since i've listened to the Na Connery CDs, think that needs to be up next on the CD player, thanks for the reminder, Danny.
zls
# Posted on June 1st 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Are you different?
But Danny my passion picked me.
# Posted on June 1st 2003 by deblittle
Re: Are you different?
"be prepared for an existance of impecunious obscurity" ... brilliant.
# Posted on June 1st 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Are you different?
It's changed my married life a bit - I've become a husband and my husband's become a wife - I now have a beer gut and he keeps moaning that I spend too much time down the pub, and how we don't do things together anymore - of course, I escape the nagging by shutting myself up in the bedroom, playing, and keep going to the sessions. Well, not quite that bad, except for the beer gut, but there is a bit of resentment which must happen in any couple when one has an obsession outside the relationship. That does not mean it's unhealthy though, and I would not change that, except that I wish I'd got into the music years before I actually did.
# Posted on June 2nd 2003 by Cath
Re: Are you different?
From my understanding the Law of Diminishing Returns it's where the more effort you put into an activity, the less returns you get for your effort. I think it was first coined in managementspeak, but can be used for many human endeavours including practicing The Music, and also sports training which Joyce mentioned earlier, and of which I'll give an example to clarify my definition:
If you run eg 20 miles a week you could probably get a 10k time of, say, for argument's sake, 42 minutes.
If you increased your mileage to 30mpw, you might get down to 39 min.
At 40mpw you'll get maybe 37.5 min.
60 mpw you get 36.5 min,
and 80 mpw gets you just 35.75 min.
And so on...
These are made up times, but about the right ballpark for a 40+ year old male.
The point is, that twice, thrice or even four times the mileage, ie investment, produces an inceasingly diminished return.
The same applies for The Music, but as that can't be quantified in the way that running times can, that's why I used the running analogy.
Hoping I've not confounded peoples understanding even further,
Danny.
# Posted on June 2nd 2003 by Nick Splease
Re: Are you different?
Danny, interesting theory, and it make work for office type stuff and sports, but I don't think you can apply it to the arts and those kinds of human endeavors. Plus if there is a point of diminishing returns I would think it would be different for each individual depending on their skill level and how much they actually enjoy the activity. for me, the more I play, the better I sound, and the more I want to play as a result. Of course, we are not talking 6 hours a day here, but maybe an hour or two some days. Maube less, maybe more.
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by Andee
Re: Are you different?
The problem with the running analogy is that it equates running faster with being able to play better. But we all know that being able to play better does not necessarily equate with enjoying playing more, especially with diddly music, which is relatively easy to play in the first place.
Don't gloss over Blake's brilliant poem quoted earlier:
"He who bends himself to joy,
does the winged life destroy ..."
Get down the pub and have a great time diddling. Then get on with the rest of your life.
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Are you different?
Cath - seriously, if you start running, you'll loose the beer gut, I promise : ) I drink a lot of ales & stouts - those high caloric microbrews and Irish stouts but I also run no matter how hung over or sh*tty I feel the next morning. It's a balancing act.
So, let's leave the beer guts for our husbands ; )
Joyce
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by JMH
Re: Are you different?
Yeah, but I was merely clarifying, to the best of my knowledge, what the law of diminishing returns was and using running as an example, as there are less factors involved and Times are an easy index as to improvement.
However I do maintain that Our Stuff obeys the Law, but the improvement parameters are much more nebulous, such data less abstractable, and in any case, to try and do so would the height of reductionism.
But, put simply, if you don't or rarely practice, you're likely to remain a beginner.
If you practice a bit, and sit in at the odd session, you'll get quite good.
If you practice a lot, and go to a fair number of sessions, you'll get pretty good. That's probably like most people here.
But...if you practice loads and loads and loads...and go to every session and workshop going, the chances are.....
....you'll possibly get a little bit better than the medium people. There's probably a few craic-addicts around like that.
But who defines what's better?
...and so the debate goes on....
Danny.
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by Nick Splease
Re: Are you different?
Dunno about that one Domhniaill Mac Aoidh. If the above statement were true, then every classical or jazz musician would be a real horror to listen to (these people, who I believe spend several hours a day playing to keep their edge).
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by Caoimghgin
Re: Are you different?
Kevin (and Andee), what Danny-boy is getting at is that the law of diminishing returns might kick in for most folks at anything beyond 3-5 hours a day of practice. Anything more than that, and the "improvement" you're likely to see, if any, won't be of the same proportion as you see from those first 3-5 hours.
In short, even if you could practice 6-10 hours a day, you'd not get appreciably "better" (whatever that is), though you probably won't get any worse. On the other hand, you might create all sorts of problems for yourself--repetitive stress injuries, mental and emotional burnout, social deprivation, etc.
We're talking in vague, roundish numbers here because the "optimal" amount of playing will vary from person to person, and probably even vary over time for the same person. I know I don't need to play as much to stay fresh as I did 10 or even just 5 years ago. Seems like in the beginning, most of us need to cram a bunch of hours in to coordinate and refine all the physical skills needed to play an instrument. But once your technique reaches a certain level, that time can be shifted to learning tunes, exploring musical ideas, chatting up the vixen in the next chair, etc. Even when I pick up a new physical skill on fiddle these days, it doesn't take near as long to learn as it would've in the beginning. The more experience you have, the easier it is to cross reference new skills and ideas to already familiar ones.
There's also a lot to be said for the *quality* of your playing time, as opposed to simply amassing a large quantity of hours scratching away. I highly recommend "Effortless Mastery: Liberating the Master Musician Within" by jazz pianist Kenny Werner (available thru Amazon.com--use Jeremy's link) for strategies to make your practicing and playing more productive, efficient, and enjoyable. (Some of the book is a bit New-Agey, and definitely jazz oriented, but the shift in attitude will work for any musician, and it's an easy read. You even get a cd of "meditations" and exercises to help focus.)
That's probably the biggest difference this music has made in me--I used to approach most new things in life as physical skills and information processing. Now I focus on enjoying the learning process and letting the physical side take care of itself. I no longer worry about how "fast" or "slow" I am to learn something, and I'm better at recognizing and playing to my own strengths. Akin to the rewards murfbox gave above, these are welcome lessons in life....
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
Thanks for pulling me out of the hole, Will, buddy.
I must add, though, that someone else mentioned the Law of Diminishing Returns ages ago at the top of this thread but wasn't very clear about the definition. I merely tried to define it and thought it might have a useful application in The Music.
Can I go home now, please?
Danny.
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by Nick Splease
Re: Are you different?
Danny, t'wasn't a hole you were in so much as standing on level ground while others shoveled misunderstandings up around you. (No offense to Kevin or anyone else--I suspect Danny and I are both just thinking aloud about this diminishing returns thing because it's interesting to loquacious ob-comp sociopaths like ourselves....
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Are you different?
Maybe this one needs a thread all to itself....watch this space....
# Posted on June 3rd 2003 by Nick Splease
Re: Are you different?
Cheers for good advice Joyce - I've started doing weight lifting to build up my arms muscles (needed for the fiddle) and sit ups (my slight asthmatic condition means running is a last resort) . Husband has no beer gut but he's not bothered by mine strangely enough. He's more bothered by the fact that I disappear to play music with friends and like minded people.
He's not driven enough to work on his guitar playing so feels uncomfortable at sessions, that's where HE's different.
# Posted on June 5th 2003 by Cath
Re: Are you different?
Yes, a get a real buzz from playing which I don't get so much from playing other styles of music. It'a also a verycommunal, social form of music. It enhances my life, as it is another form of art, a bit like poetry. You can express yourself through it, put your all into playing, and on a more light-hearted note (no pun intended) you can enjoy a good pint and a chat.
# Posted on June 19th 2003 by Highly Strung!!