I really like Taiko drumming (if that is what you mean). The best group in Britain are probably 'Mugenkyo', whose show 'The Way of The Drum' is on tour at the moment (It's VERY good). They also do weekend workshops at their base in South Lanarkshire - random place, I know - but at very reasonable prices. Visit http://www.taiko.co.uk/ for more info.
...and this is not meant in any sectarian way, but don't these Japanese Traditional drums remind you a bit of lambegs on steroids? I think some fife playing would go nicely with them. "The Humors of Kyoto" "The Osaka Lassies" etc?
Taiko drumming can be amazing - so much fun to sit in the audience...the energy is electric! And they do sometimes play flute with Taiko (or similar) and the effect can be lovely. For something along those lines (though I don't think it's actually Taiko), try listening to the track "To the South" from the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon soundtrack.
OK., not a frequent poster on this board, but a constant reader...I'm still too much of a beginner to open my mouth (so to speak) very often. But am I the only one who actually likes the bodhran? I mean, I play mandolin, tenor guitar, and hopefully soon the bouzouki, but if I had to play a drum it would definitely be the bodhran...
I find it to be just about the most expressive drum there is, along with maybe the tablas. It's hard to tell if all the negative comments on this board about the bodhran are just good natured teasing, or expressions of genuine dislike. I'm also a big fan of bluegrass, and banjo players tend to get a similar treatment in those circles, but in that case it is certainly just all in good fun. I'm not so sure when it comes to beaters. Anyone care to enlighten me? Do most Irish trad players actually hate the the bodhran or do they just need someone to make the butt of their jokes.
Rest easy North Light. I have this theory that ' .. the lady doeth protest too much' and that really all the supposed bodhran haters quietly suffer from a rare diease known in the medical books as Bodhran Acquisitive Syndrome. In addition I suspect that some of the more passionate 'antis' secretly take late night trips into the forest where they secretly thrum throughout the night.
Now of course none of them will admit to that - but next time you go past a forest, stop your car and listen .. and if the air is clear you will hear a driving beat floating on the breeze. If you are daring you might walk into the wood, but take care for inside you will find half of the mustard board whacking goatskin
North Light, I like the bodhran too (as an instrument, at least), but I play the drums (drum set and hand drums, no IT) so maybe I'm biased towards percussion instruments. I think the problem is that too many bodhranists just play "DUM dum dum dum DUM dum dum dum..." the whole session, which gets repetitive. If a bodhranist is familiar with the tunes and knows when to emphasize certain beats instead of the first of each measure all the time, and when to throw in stops and drum rolls, it gives the music a great feel.
Irish diddley music is very percusive and very dense. The bodhran, the very best of them, thumps a beat at the same time a note is played in the tune. The bodhran, at it's very very best, is merely pointless. Why not simply play the tune instead?
Much is said about the best bodhran player must know the tunes. If you are bright, and dedicated enough to know the tunes, you'd be playing them.
"My introduction to Irish music and early experiences as an accordion player shaped my approach to playing the bodhrán. I gained not only a sense of melody, but a love and understanding of the tunes. This led me to want to make a drum that is more than just percussive. I wanted a drum that has the ability to be thought of, treated like, and made to sound an integral part of the melody."
A few unbiased opinions:
“You really have got it figured out.”
— Tommy Hayes
“This is a very nice drum. This is the nicest
American-made bodhrán I have ever seen.”
— Johnny “Ringo” McDonagh
“If anyone anywhere makes a better drum,
I don’t know who or where they are.”
— Frank Torpey (from Nomos)
“I want this drum! Albert, your spelling is atrocious.”
— Seamus Egan
“The Beatles had the Maharishi. In traditional
Irish music, we have Albert.”
— Jimmy Keane
Two Saturday mornings ago at 9.30am on that same day of each year, I have the interesting experience of having around three hundred highland pipers and the proportionate amount of Scots band drummers in full regalia passing by my back door for around an hour, off to the annual Scottish day in the town where I live.
It seems to me that drums in whatever form or musical genre they are found, are, historically anyway, a practical form of militaristic and/or emotional rhythmic addition to music. I mean, they are a normal accompaniment of English military bands, and most other genres that you can think of. That isn’t to say they shouldn’t be played well of course. As well, what is apparently the case in the Scottish pipe bands is that the drummers don’t generally play the pipes – they specialise in drumming. There is obviously a very strict formula which the drummers must follow, acknowledged by the pipers.
It seems to me that bodhrans are just the Irish version of this, or an imitation of drum use in the historical military context in Ireland. Drums seem, when played well, and “emotionally in tune” can add an incredible lift and dimension to a tune, and jointly motivate both listeners and players. That would, I imagine, be a very helpful symbiotic affect in a military context. The same, I dare say, is the case with the melody players – you can play something technically well, but quite divorced from whatever supposed affect the tune may be having on listeners, or you can play in “emotionally in tune”. Military leaders historically have known all about this – that’s why the send musicians and drummers into battle with their troops and ensure that stirring music is played.
Haven’t I heard it said, read, written that many of the Irish sept marches are in fact embedded within the Irish dance music genre, whether they are jigs, reels, etc. Why wouldn’t bodhrans be part of ITM now? Historically, they must have played a very central role.
I totally agree though, like any instrument, if you are going to join in with others the bodhran, like all other instruments have to be played with skill and ability. I think the mistake that many people make about bodhrans is that they think they easy to play, the “I can do that” syndrome. They are hard to play well.
The drumming in GHB pipe bands is a highly arranged thing that playes with the pipes. The don't play what the pipes play, they have their own "melody" that complements as a counterpoint. Quite the reverse to the bodhran.
Nevertheless, Scotish pipe band drumming has a militaristic intent and history, as probably does the drumming tradition in ITM. Let alone lambeg drumming.
As such, I doubt whether bodhran drumming is pointless whether it plays "a melody" or not. In fact, I do detect the ability of some bodhran players to actually match the melodic intent of a tune.
I would think that a war pipe band backed by a dozen bodhrans at any time between around 1590 to 1601 in Ulster would be a sound the English armies in the area at the time would have thought was pointless.
Which is my whole point. A good bodhran player will match the melody very closely. So why not just play the melody on an instrument which is capable of doing so? Unless. of course you have a militaristic intent?
My stand is that in a session, at best, bodhrans are pointless.
Slighlty less that best, they begin to get irritating
And anything less than that they are feckin' annoying.
What's more, all my mates I play with agree.
Come on ... What is it that makes them worth while? What is the attraction? What is the benefit?
Because they have a militaristic history, because they are trditional (and that old chestnut, because the punters love 'em) just are not good enough.
"My best is that in a session, at best, bodhrans are pointless" (llig) - Yes we know, you've already said that.
"Slightly less than best, they begin to get irritating" (llig) - They have to be played well and not be a drag on the musical package - just like any other instrument.
"And anything less than that they are feckin' annoying" - That could well be the case, again, just like any other instrument.
The only proviso is that it is difficult to hide the sound of a bodhran behind other instruments. Any mistakes or shortcomings will be immediately apparent, unless perhaps other instruments.
"What's more, all my mates I play with agree" - So? Do they agree when you're not there?
"Come on...what is it that makes them worthwhile, etc -" (llig) -
I've said that before, see post above. Here it is:
Drums seem, when played well, and “emotionally in tune” can add an incredible lift and dimension to a tune, and jointly motivate both listeners and players. That would, I imagine, be a very helpful symbiotic affect in a military context. The same, I dare say, is the case with the melody players – you can play something technically well, but quite divorced from whatever supposed affect the tune may be having on listeners, or you can play in “emotionally in tune”.
"Because they have a militaristic history, traditional....the punters love 'em" (llig)
Yes, I would say that is quite good enough, and I would say the 20000 people who listed to the massed pipes bands in my home town two Saturdays ago would heartily agree.
.. looks like we are developing our own tradition on the board - llig v. the world.
I really cannot see how just because you and your friends say it is so makes it right. My friends agree I should have a bigger house, a nicer car and more expensive musical instruments. Unfortunately there are those in a position of power who disagree. Equally just because you don't like bodhrans(which is your right) doesn't mean to say we should have a universal ban. By all means have an exclusive 'club' at your session which is bodhran free. Just post the address so we know where not to go.
I have nothing against drums per say. Quite the reverse. I love to listen to such diversity as GHB pipe bands, John Bonham, Elvin Jones, Music from Burundi to Japan. I even like to hear Donal Lunny play the bodhran - all be it in a concert setting or a recording. My objection is to the bodhran in an Irish music diddley session.
Yes, I agree that the music is often played technically well, but quite divorced from being emotionally in tune. That's a good way of putting it. And there are various ways of getting the "emotionally in tune" bit, not least of which would be the subtleties of rhythm. But because the tunes, by there very nature, are rhythmic vehicles, the good tune player should be able to express all the emotions the music is capable of through the melody alone.
And if, as a session does, we expand the form into an ensemble, we get the interplay of unison and/or subtleties of different approaches, voicings and, if there are strummers, stacked harmony. When you play tunes, you want to play tunes with other people, you want the influence of where the melody it going, you want the feedback. You just don't get this from the bodran, you only get half of it. Everything a bodhran can possibly communicate you can get from a tune players instead ... and some.
"the good tune player should be able to express all the emotions the music is capable of through the melody alone" (llig)
Well, allowing for the various definitions of "good" that may well vary to llig's, yes, that is entirely possible, and desirable.
I don't think that is a sufficient premise for objecting to the bodhran in an "Irish music diddley session."
llig, would I happen to be correct in assuming that you might also think lambeg drums are part of ITM?
I personally love a good bodhran player in a session.
I get what michael was saying but there is something about a well played bodhran. A friend of mine playes the bodhran , he is also an amazing flute player, so he understands the music and knows the tunes. He has been playing the bodhran since he was 4 and is just amazing to listen to.
He definitely adds another dimention to the music.
When he playes the bodhran and one of the lads plays Down the Bray on the fiddle its the best.
Not sure why Michael gets such flak for his position on bodhrans. He makes a valid point. At any rate he's not going to change his mind. Folks tend to get rather defensive about it whenever he brings it up, which could suggest that they see the validity in what he says and as they do like bodhrans, feel like they ought to enthusiastically defend them.
I don't dislike them myself. I'm sort of neutral about them -- I don't think they're terrible unless the player is quite dire nor do I think they greatly increase a session's quality.
I guess he gets flak because he takes an absolute position based on, in the perception of his respondents perhaps,self-proclaimed authority. It isn't Michael per se, if you do that in whatever subject, you are likely to get flak - unless your listeners/readers agree with you obviously.
How can someone take a possition of self proclaimed authority in the perception of their respondants? You're talkin' mince
And can I point out that it wisnae me who brought it up. It never is. The legitimate question was asked: "Do most Irish trad players actually hate the the bodhran?"
The answer came straight away from MacCruiskeen, "Yes"
I am also neutral about them. As I said, when played well. they are merely pointless. (I'm far from neutral about them when they are not played well, but that's a different argument, about which there is more agreement)
The "doth" protesters are those who hop to the defence.
Ahm,...that means, Michael, that people who read your views (and then respond i.e. your respondents) perceive you to be self-proclaiming your authority.
"Most Irish trad players" - oh, right! Where might that be then?
Ireland?
"As I said, when played well, they are merely pointless". (llig)
Is that your opinion, Michael, or a universal given, or is it the agenda just because you say it is the agenda.
Here's another agenda:
"As I said, when played well, they are not pointless".
Or would you rather me say that is my opinion, even though you don't.
It may well be your position, Michael, but if you are getting flak regularly, as posts seem to be saying, it is probably something to do with how you are affecting people's perception. That's fairly logical I would have thought.
Well, Michael, there *might* be a point in getting all sarcastic about it.
Yeah, I'm not surprised I get flack for holding my position. What I'm basically saying is a little insulting to bodhran players and people don't like being insulted. I do not understand why anyone would put so much effort into the music and yet only want to play half of it? I'm asking a straight forward question to people who play the bodhran.
There are a wealth of answers which I'm not interested in, like: "it's easy" or "so I can play along when I don't know the tune" or "I just like the sound of it" etc. I'm not interested in these people. I just ask them to stop and that's the end of it.
I'm interested in the people who come at it from the right direction, study the music, feel the music, and yet seem content with only half of it.
They are specialising in the drumming aspect of the genre, Michael, simple as that. (If they are specialising in the sense of being an accomplished and practised player, not just tinkering around and dragging the session down).
I don't see it any differently than the highland pipe band drummers, from the point of view of their specialising in that aspect of the genre (regardless, I hasten to add, of whatever stylistic differences there are between bodhran playing and highland pipe band drummers).
Does your assertion go towards other non-melody instruments at a session as well?
For my own part, by the way, I prefer to play a melody instrument, because for me, that is the best way for me to experience the music - to the extent of my ability anyway.
But I accept that there is place for a well-played bodhran that can add another dimension to the music. It is not mandatory, but there is a place for them - in my opinion anyway.
as for the Highland Pipe Band drummers, they are only really part of the Pipe Band tradition but there's much more to Scottish music and, indeed, Scottish bagpipe music than that.
I'm not knocking pipe band drummers either. They have their place but it's a specialised area.
I think Michael and a few others might argue that they(bodhrans) are not part of the genre, i.e not strictly necessary, pointless even, and..at best harmless.
Of course, many melody instruments including the mandolin aren't regarded to be in the top tier either
Highland Pipe Band drummers play very very different stuff to what the pipers play (I said all this above). The interplay between the drummers and the pipes is very interesting. This is not how the bodhran is played. The drumming aspect of the genre of Irish diddley music is one thump per one note in the tune. they don't add anything, merely replicate
Strummers are not necessary, but they do add layers of harmony. They also replicate the rhythms, but often in a more creative way that the bodhran.
Yes, heard what you said about the differences in playing styles between Scottish drums and bodhrans - that's why I said regardless of those stylistic differences, the bodhran still has a place, and has had a place no doubt historically, as have the Scottish drums. What they add, Michael, does not depend on your definition of what they should add, I would think. Even if there was one beat per note (which I don't think is always the case anyway), that isn't the criteria for what the bodhran's role would have been historically. That criteria appears to be your's, Michael i.e. the bodhran being "one thump per one note in the tune", therefore 'adds nothing', and therefore somehow doesn't have a place.
Your premise appears to be, Michael, that playing bodhran is an excuse not to play the melody. That's, again, an agenda that you are proposing. I don't actually agree with the premise, Michael.
A well-played bodhran contributes its own timbre to the music, but that's about it. Personally, I enjoy that timbre, and we're lucky to have several very good drummers at our local seshes. They take turns, and they sit out entire sets, so it's not a constant presence.
Each of them also happily plays or is learning a melody instrument.
I could not imagine how anyone could say that the bodhran playing backing Tommy Keane in Dusty Miller/Silver Slipper/Willie's Fling off his Piper's Apron album, doesn't add a whole independent, but exciting dimension to that set. I have listened to this set over and over again over the years, and find myself focussing on the piping for almost the entire play, then the bodhran playing on another play, then the guitar on yet another, and then finally, listening to how the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. It is a timeless piece exemplifying, for me anyway, exactly what expert bodhran rhythm can add in the right context. In some ways, that track is almost as much about the bodhran and the guitar interplay, as much as the piping. What a brilliant, classic track.
"A well-played bodhran contributes its own timbre to the music, but that's about it." Yep, that's about it. Well said Will. I'm pretty sure that adding a completely new and different rhythmic counterpoint, as GHB band drummers do, and merely adding a different timbre are more than stylistic differences.
My premise is not that playing bodhran is an excuse not to play the melody. (Some play it because they don't know the tune, but as I said, I'm not interested in them.) I don't really have a premise, just a question. Why study hard at something when all you are adding is timbre? I have no definition of what they should ad, only the clear definition of what they are incapable of adding.
I'd go so far as to say that when a bodhran adds a rhythmic counterpoint in a session, all it does is muddy what the actual melody players are doing.
Dubh seems to be talking about carefully wrought recordings, with just a few instruments. I suppose a bodhran doing counterpoint can work in those situations, but I still prefer drums when they don't compete with the musicians who are actually playing the melody *and* keeping time. In this music, good melody players continuously layer in their own variations on the rhythm.
Yes, I have rarely heard bodhran playing as good as on that recording in a session. It was no doubt a very well rehearsed piece. To me, though, it absolutely exemplifies what the bodhran can add in the hands of really good players, who are "emotionally in tune" - with the tune, and with what the bodhran can bring to enhance it. It can be done very well, and even in a rhythmic pattern quite divergent from the tune itself - that's where its interest lies, for me anyway. Otherwise, they can run the risk of being fairly pedestrian, I agree. They need, in my opinion, a very creative approach and natural talent for rhythm and how to use that to enhance the quality of the tune.
Don't think they need to "compete", Will, rather complement. Yes, I have in mind some well practised recordings, but I am sure those players could do the same thing in a session.
So this was a "well rehearsed piece" trotted out at a session? Hmmm....sounds more like a performance to me.
As I said above, a well-played bodhran complements the music in one way only--it's unique timbre. I enjoy that, at times. But a melody instrument can contribute so much more.
I think it adds [?] a bit more than timbre, it is one of the few things likely to be at a session low enough in pitch to feel it resonating in ones chest, rather than just hearing it. I have the impression that some listeners like it because of that. 'Heartbeat of irish music" and all that. People are used to some sort of baseline.
I am not disagreeing Michaels reasoning, or suggesting it is a good addition, just saying why I think *some people* like it.
The point has been made that bodhran players should know the melody, and others points have been made that if they're playing the melody -- why don't they just play the melody instead of covering it up with the drum beats? I also play bodhran, and I know the melodies, but when I'm playing the bodhran, the fact that I know the tune doesn't translate to playing the melody on the drum. Quite the opposite actually; knowing the melody allows me to understand the inherent rhythm and come up with ways to support and reinforce the drive already in the tune. It also allows me to anticipate rhythmical changes between parts.
This is also what I listen for in other people's playing. You can tell if someone is familiar enough with the tune's rhythmical structure to provide a complimentary support and enhancement rather than just mindlessly beating along.
Hasn't it been nice to see a lack of dogmaticism in this thread
Maybe we could start a society - The Society for the Protextion of Cruelty to Bodhranistas (SPCB). Wonder if Llig would be interested in becoming president?
Button says, "knowing the melody allows me to understand the inherent rhythm and come up with ways to support and reinforce the drive already in the tune. It also allows me to anticipate rhythmical changes between parts."
What stops you doing this when playing the tune? What is it about the drum that you think makes it more suited to doing this than playing the tune?
I'm sure Jack will explain this, but I suspect he's describing how a smart drummer applies musicianship to playing, much as any musician would. Which is what makes the bodhran work, when it does.
In other words, he's not using the drum to play melody, but knowing the melody allows him to play musically. Of course that's how good backers on any instrument approach their role.
Yes, a good strummer will do as Button says, support, reinforce, anticipate - but with harmony as well as rhythm., something a tune player can't do.
But the best tune player will also understand the inherent rhythm and come up with ways to support and reinforce the drive already in the tune. Everything the bodhran can do (except do that "low enough in pitch to feel it resonating in ones chest" thing) - but with harmonic and melodic (same thing really) variation as well.
Ah, well sometimes I like the support and reinforcement without harmony. A well-played bodhran can lend a bassline and unique timbre while leaving the harmonic choices up to the melody player(s).
The lads of Lunasa used to say they didn't have a bodhran (excpet for Kevin's occasional forays) because they wanted to leave room for rhythmic push and pull. I assume they made a conscious choice to accept the harmonic confines imposed by a guitar and bass....
I tend to play the bodhran when other backup isn't playing. This isn't always very easy to do at sessions because people join in randomly, but that's often where I start. I'm not saying they can't or don't work together, I'm just saying what I like to hear. I see the similarity between harmonic backup and the bodhran, but I also recognize the difference. Even though they both play a similar role, they still are two completely different instruments.
I came from a varied musical background and I'm sure this contributes to my appreciation of drumming. Before I played Irish music I played Middle Eastern music, which relies on and makes good use of the drum. For that reason I'm not as concerned about the purity of whether or not the bodhran should be allowed. In my case, I welcome it, provided it's well played.
Yes, I often like the support and reinforcement without harmony (Stacked harmony that is, the tune is the linear harmony). That's why I like unison playing.
For example, two fiddles. When you get to play tunes you've both known for yonks and played together for yonks. Just two fiddles. Pushing the rhythm yet tied together. And then the little busts of variation, whether exploring extra jumps of rhythmic input or harmonic flights of fancy. Then back to the unison.
I can see that there can be an argument for fiddle and bodhran, where the same rhythmic unison can happen, but the fiddle is free to interpret the linear harmony in as wide a way as it wants. But Irish Diddley music is not John Coltrane and Elvin Jones. The skill and heart of the music does not lie in such open harmonic freedom. It lies in the tunes themselves and how a player relates to the tune. It lies in how the tunes themselves are actually much more rhythmically dense that John Coltrane's saxophone playing and much less harmonically dense.
This is why, at its best, two fiddles will always be better than a fiddle and a bodhran. And why three fiddles will always be better than two fiddles and a bodhran. An why four fiddles and two flutes will always be better that three fiddles, two flutes and a bodhran. etc.
Anything I write here is of course merely my take on it. How else could it be anything else. I write stuff and take a look who agrees.
Do you agree that the skill and heart of the music does not lie in open harmonic freedom but in the tunes themselves and how a player relates to the tune?
"Do you agree that the skill and heart of the music does not lie in open harmonic freedom but in the tunes themselves and how a player relates to the tune?"
If you read my posts in this thread alone I believe you'll find your answer.
If you are bright, and dedicated enough to know the tunes, you'd be playing them.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Dedicated, yes Mr Llig, not too sure about the bright bit. I know a lot of melody players who are exceedingly dim, to put it mildly.
And the heart of the music does lie in the tunes themselves, and the bodhran adds to those tunes and that heart by providing a pulse.
And could everyone PLEASE STOP saying a GOOD bodhran player does this and that etc. No one ever posts a GOOD fiddler or piper will relate to the tunes, or add to the music.
A useless any type of player will ruin the music, and I know that a bad piper at a session is even worse that a bad bodhran player.
And I already know that due to the nature of the instrument and its apparent ease to play we do have a lot of poor bodhran players.
I have consistently referred to the like of "a good strummer" and " the best tune player" etc. throughout this discussion. That's what this discussion is about. If I had the best bodhran player in the world sat next to me it wouldn't make me happy.
Nobody likes a poor player of any instrument at a session. I can put up with a poor tune player to a certain extent because they have likely put in a fair bit of work just to get to poor standard. Bad bodhran players only have to buy a bodhran. Some have barely taken the price tag off.
No need Bliss, if bodhran is your weapon of choice you wont get any objections to me. I was only stating why I don't have much time for bad bodhran players. As you know the bodhran is blighted with chancers and that is why most people refer to liking a GOOD bodhran player - because they don't want to encourage even more session ruiners.
What about drummers? For example, been playing with this retired fella for a year or two now. His whole life he's been a drummer, he's a retired firefighter professionally. He's played in rock bands, jazz bands, pipe marching bands, ceili bands and sessions. He's been a drummer his whole life, and he's really good at what he does, no matter what the drum. He loves Irish music and drums very well to it, however, he's a drummer, like I said. What the man does is play drums. I wouldn't dream of telling him to not play drums, and I know he's not playing the bodhran because he secretly wants to play a melody instrument. He's had 60+ years to go play something else if he wanted to, however, he's a drummer. That's what he is.
Some people are just drummers. No, I can't explain them either, sorry, but they just are. I, for one, am thankful for them, because with them in the world it's a lot easier to tell a non-drummer trying to drum to "cut the nonsense already, who do you think you are" eh?
Yes, SWFL, I agree! My son is a drummer, and he also plays guitar, dinks around on the piano, too. But, he's a drummer! He thumps all the time. He's one of those hyperactive kids and drumming is what he does.
"I've never once said to exclude them (except if the player is no good, which is more often than not), just that they are pointless."
Yes, you did say pointless, but the following statements led me to believe that you would prefer to exclude them all together:
1) "My stand is that in a session, at best, bodhrans are pointless. Slighlty less that best, they begin to get irritating. And anything less than that they are feckin' annoying."
2) "My objection is to the bodhran in an Irish music diddley session."
~~~
You also offer some confusing and seemingly contradictory statements:
a) "The bodhran, the very best of them, thumps a beat at the same time a note is played in the tune."
b) "The drumming aspect of the genre of Irish diddley music is one thump per one note in the tune. they don't add anything, merely replicate."
Are you saying that you think the very best bodhran players play in a way that doesn't add anything? Why do you offer praise for a style that is, according to you, so deficient? It sounds to me like you would just prefer the bodhran wasn’t played at all... or excluded.
I did concede that they can add a certain timbre, but that's all they can add. A timbre that some like, I can either take it or leave it in a session (a gig or recording is a different matter). But that timbre is so invasive that unless the player is absolutely top notch, it ruins the music. Completely destroys it.
And if it's a case of room? Give me a mediocre tune player any time over the best bodhran player. I want to hear tunes. Tunes are what it's about.
I don't see what's contradictory in statements a) and b)?
Yes, I am saying that the very best bodhran players play in a way that don't add anything. They don't contribute anything to the tunes. The music is complete without it. They very best place you can possibly ever hope to get on a bodhran is a situation where you are no longer ruining the music, just an irrelevance.
So your standards for bodhran players are a lot higher than it is for any other instrument. If a bodhran player shows up at a session where you're playing they will undergo scrutiny disproportionately to all the other instruments? Is this fair?
Bodhrans
Bodhrans
For those of you who hate bodhrans - imagine this crew turning up to your session
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thQ1VAyJWHw
I know it is off topic, but does anyone know anything or steer me toward more information on traditional Japanese drumming?
D
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Bodhrans
I really like Taiko drumming (if that is what you mean). The best group in Britain are probably 'Mugenkyo', whose show 'The Way of The Drum' is on tour at the moment (It's VERY good). They also do weekend workshops at their base in South Lanarkshire - random place, I know - but at very reasonable prices. Visit http://www.taiko.co.uk/ for more info.
Hope that helps.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Daniel Gott
Re: Bodhrans
Feckin brilliant. I love Kodo.
I remember seeing a Japanese production of The Tempest at the Edinburgh Frestival with massed drummers. I was totally blown away.
This is as far removed from the bodhran as Neil Alden Armstrong was on the 16th of July 1969 to a Argyropelecus gigas
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Was Neil Armstrong really booked to do a gig in Argos in 69
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Bodhrans
But then on the other side of the planet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KFtc_rpg-Wg&feature=related
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by jtrout
Re: Bodhrans
Did you ever see Donal Lunny with Coolfin and Kodo?
http://estore.websitepros.com/1652646/Detail.bok?no=1208
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bodhrans
...and this is not meant in any sectarian way, but don't these Japanese Traditional drums remind you a bit of lambegs on steroids? I think some fife playing would go nicely with them. "The Humors of Kyoto" "The Osaka Lassies" etc?
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bodhrans
Taiko drumming can be amazing - so much fun to sit in the audience...the energy is electric! And they do sometimes play flute with Taiko (or similar) and the effect can be lovely. For something along those lines (though I don't think it's actually Taiko), try listening to the track "To the South" from the Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon soundtrack.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by fliedermaus
Re: Bodhrans
OK., not a frequent poster on this board, but a constant reader...I'm still too much of a beginner to open my mouth (so to speak) very often. But am I the only one who actually likes the bodhran? I mean, I play mandolin, tenor guitar, and hopefully soon the bouzouki, but if I had to play a drum it would definitely be the bodhran...
I find it to be just about the most expressive drum there is, along with maybe the tablas. It's hard to tell if all the negative comments on this board about the bodhran are just good natured teasing, or expressions of genuine dislike. I'm also a big fan of bluegrass, and banjo players tend to get a similar treatment in those circles, but in that case it is certainly just all in good fun. I'm not so sure when it comes to beaters. Anyone care to enlighten me? Do most Irish trad players actually hate the the bodhran or do they just need someone to make the butt of their jokes.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by North Light
Re: Bodhrans
North Light wrote: 'Do most Irish trad players actually hate the the bodhran or do they just need someone to make the butt of their jokes?"
Yes and yes.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Bodhrans
Rest easy North Light. I have this theory that ' .. the lady doeth protest too much' and that really all the supposed bodhran haters quietly suffer from a rare diease known in the medical books as Bodhran Acquisitive Syndrome. In addition I suspect that some of the more passionate 'antis' secretly take late night trips into the forest where they secretly thrum throughout the night.
Now of course none of them will admit to that - but next time you go past a forest, stop your car and listen .. and if the air is clear you will hear a driving beat floating on the breeze. If you are daring you might walk into the wood, but take care for inside you will find half of the mustard board whacking goatskin
D
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Bodhrans
North Light, I like the bodhran too (as an instrument, at least), but I play the drums (drum set and hand drums, no IT) so maybe I'm biased towards percussion instruments. I think the problem is that too many bodhranists just play "DUM dum dum dum DUM dum dum dum..." the whole session, which gets repetitive. If a bodhranist is familiar with the tunes and knows when to emphasize certain beats instead of the first of each measure all the time, and when to throw in stops and drum rolls, it gives the music a great feel.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Bodhrans
Irish diddley music is very percusive and very dense. The bodhran, the very best of them, thumps a beat at the same time a note is played in the tune. The bodhran, at it's very very best, is merely pointless. Why not simply play the tune instead?
Much is said about the best bodhran player must know the tunes. If you are bright, and dedicated enough to know the tunes, you'd be playing them.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
MORE RUBBISH from llig <--- ignore this guy
From Alberto Alfonso's website
"My introduction to Irish music and early experiences as an accordion player shaped my approach to playing the bodhrán. I gained not only a sense of melody, but a love and understanding of the tunes. This led me to want to make a drum that is more than just percussive. I wanted a drum that has the ability to be thought of, treated like, and made to sound an integral part of the melody."
A few unbiased opinions:
“You really have got it figured out.”
— Tommy Hayes
“This is a very nice drum. This is the nicest
American-made bodhrán I have ever seen.”
— Johnny “Ringo” McDonagh
“If anyone anywhere makes a better drum,
I don’t know who or where they are.”
— Frank Torpey (from Nomos)
“I want this drum! Albert, your spelling is atrocious.”
— Seamus Egan
“The Beatles had the Maharishi. In traditional
Irish music, we have Albert.”
— Jimmy Keane
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Bodhrans
Two Saturday mornings ago at 9.30am on that same day of each year, I have the interesting experience of having around three hundred highland pipers and the proportionate amount of Scots band drummers in full regalia passing by my back door for around an hour, off to the annual Scottish day in the town where I live.
It seems to me that drums in whatever form or musical genre they are found, are, historically anyway, a practical form of militaristic and/or emotional rhythmic addition to music. I mean, they are a normal accompaniment of English military bands, and most other genres that you can think of. That isn’t to say they shouldn’t be played well of course. As well, what is apparently the case in the Scottish pipe bands is that the drummers don’t generally play the pipes – they specialise in drumming. There is obviously a very strict formula which the drummers must follow, acknowledged by the pipers.
It seems to me that bodhrans are just the Irish version of this, or an imitation of drum use in the historical military context in Ireland. Drums seem, when played well, and “emotionally in tune” can add an incredible lift and dimension to a tune, and jointly motivate both listeners and players. That would, I imagine, be a very helpful symbiotic affect in a military context. The same, I dare say, is the case with the melody players – you can play something technically well, but quite divorced from whatever supposed affect the tune may be having on listeners, or you can play in “emotionally in tune”. Military leaders historically have known all about this – that’s why the send musicians and drummers into battle with their troops and ensure that stirring music is played.
Haven’t I heard it said, read, written that many of the Irish sept marches are in fact embedded within the Irish dance music genre, whether they are jigs, reels, etc. Why wouldn’t bodhrans be part of ITM now? Historically, they must have played a very central role.
I totally agree though, like any instrument, if you are going to join in with others the bodhran, like all other instruments have to be played with skill and ability. I think the mistake that many people make about bodhrans is that they think they easy to play, the “I can do that” syndrome. They are hard to play well.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
I never understand what is this get-out about bodhrans. That is a perspective from a non-bodhran player (my perpective that is).
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
The drumming in GHB pipe bands is a highly arranged thing that playes with the pipes. The don't play what the pipes play, they have their own "melody" that complements as a counterpoint. Quite the reverse to the bodhran.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Nevertheless, Scotish pipe band drumming has a militaristic intent and history, as probably does the drumming tradition in ITM. Let alone lambeg drumming.
As such, I doubt whether bodhran drumming is pointless whether it plays "a melody" or not. In fact, I do detect the ability of some bodhran players to actually match the melodic intent of a tune.
I would think that a war pipe band backed by a dozen bodhrans at any time between around 1590 to 1601 in Ulster would be a sound the English armies in the area at the time would have thought was pointless.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
Big bodhrans.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
Which is my whole point. A good bodhran player will match the melody very closely. So why not just play the melody on an instrument which is capable of doing so? Unless. of course you have a militaristic intent?
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Because it is part of the tradition.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
That answer is simply not good enough.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
It's brilliant, and the answer to all your problems.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
Come on now, I'm trying to debate this seriously.
My stand is that in a session, at best, bodhrans are pointless.
Slighlty less that best, they begin to get irritating
And anything less than that they are feckin' annoying.
What's more, all my mates I play with agree.
Come on ... What is it that makes them worth while? What is the attraction? What is the benefit?
Because they have a militaristic history, because they are trditional (and that old chestnut, because the punters love 'em) just are not good enough.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
What makes you think I'm joking?!
"My best is that in a session, at best, bodhrans are pointless" (llig) - Yes we know, you've already said that.
"Slightly less than best, they begin to get irritating" (llig) - They have to be played well and not be a drag on the musical package - just like any other instrument.
"And anything less than that they are feckin' annoying" - That could well be the case, again, just like any other instrument.
The only proviso is that it is difficult to hide the sound of a bodhran behind other instruments. Any mistakes or shortcomings will be immediately apparent, unless perhaps other instruments.
"What's more, all my mates I play with agree" - So? Do they agree when you're not there?
"Come on...what is it that makes them worthwhile, etc -" (llig) -
I've said that before, see post above. Here it is:
Drums seem, when played well, and “emotionally in tune” can add an incredible lift and dimension to a tune, and jointly motivate both listeners and players. That would, I imagine, be a very helpful symbiotic affect in a military context. The same, I dare say, is the case with the melody players – you can play something technically well, but quite divorced from whatever supposed affect the tune may be having on listeners, or you can play in “emotionally in tune”.
"Because they have a militaristic history, traditional....the punters love 'em" (llig)
Yes, I would say that is quite good enough, and I would say the 20000 people who listed to the massed pipes bands in my home town two Saturdays ago would heartily agree.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
I really cannot see how just because you and your friends say it is so makes it right. My friends agree I should have a bigger house, a nicer car and more expensive musical instruments. Unfortunately there are those in a position of power who disagree. Equally just because you don't like bodhrans(which is your right) doesn't mean to say we should have a universal ban. By all means have an exclusive 'club' at your session which is bodhran free. Just post the address so we know where not to go.
D
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Bodhrans
I have nothing against drums per say. Quite the reverse. I love to listen to such diversity as GHB pipe bands, John Bonham, Elvin Jones, Music from Burundi to Japan. I even like to hear Donal Lunny play the bodhran - all be it in a concert setting or a recording. My objection is to the bodhran in an Irish music diddley session.
Yes, I agree that the music is often played technically well, but quite divorced from being emotionally in tune. That's a good way of putting it. And there are various ways of getting the "emotionally in tune" bit, not least of which would be the subtleties of rhythm. But because the tunes, by there very nature, are rhythmic vehicles, the good tune player should be able to express all the emotions the music is capable of through the melody alone.
And if, as a session does, we expand the form into an ensemble, we get the interplay of unison and/or subtleties of different approaches, voicings and, if there are strummers, stacked harmony. When you play tunes, you want to play tunes with other people, you want the influence of where the melody it going, you want the feedback. You just don't get this from the bodran, you only get half of it. Everything a bodhran can possibly communicate you can get from a tune players instead ... and some.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
"the good tune player should be able to express all the emotions the music is capable of through the melody alone" (llig)
Well, allowing for the various definitions of "good" that may well vary to llig's, yes, that is entirely possible, and desirable.
I don't think that is a sufficient premise for objecting to the bodhran in an "Irish music diddley session."
llig, would I happen to be correct in assuming that you might also think lambeg drums are part of ITM?
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
I'm not interested in lambeg drums
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Are you sure, Michael?
Don't be fence-sitting, man, you'll end up doing yourself an injury.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
I personally love a good bodhran player in a session.
I get what michael was saying but there is something about a well played bodhran. A friend of mine playes the bodhran , he is also an amazing flute player, so he understands the music and knows the tunes. He has been playing the bodhran since he was 4 and is just amazing to listen to.
He definitely adds another dimention to the music.
When he playes the bodhran and one of the lads plays Down the Bray on the fiddle its the best.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by session savage
Re: Bodhrans
dimension!!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by session savage
Re: Bodhrans
Not sure why Michael gets such flak for his position on bodhrans. He makes a valid point. At any rate he's not going to change his mind. Folks tend to get rather defensive about it whenever he brings it up, which could suggest that they see the validity in what he says and as they do like bodhrans, feel like they ought to enthusiastically defend them.
I don't dislike them myself. I'm sort of neutral about them -- I don't think they're terrible unless the player is quite dire nor do I think they greatly increase a session's quality.
It's all music, man.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Bodhrans
I guess he gets flak because he takes an absolute position based on, in the perception of his respondents perhaps,self-proclaimed authority. It isn't Michael per se, if you do that in whatever subject, you are likely to get flak - unless your listeners/readers agree with you obviously.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
How can someone take a possition of self proclaimed authority in the perception of their respondants? You're talkin' mince
And can I point out that it wisnae me who brought it up. It never is. The legitimate question was asked: "Do most Irish trad players actually hate the the bodhran?"
The answer came straight away from MacCruiskeen, "Yes"
I am also neutral about them. As I said, when played well. they are merely pointless. (I'm far from neutral about them when they are not played well, but that's a different argument, about which there is more agreement)
The "doth" protesters are those who hop to the defence.
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9423
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Ahm,...that means, Michael, that people who read your views (and then respond i.e. your respondents) perceive you to be self-proclaiming your authority.
"Most Irish trad players" - oh, right! Where might that be then?
Ireland?
"As I said, when played well, they are merely pointless". (llig)
Is that your opinion, Michael, or a universal given, or is it the agenda just because you say it is the agenda.
Here's another agenda:
"As I said, when played well, they are not pointless".
Or would you rather me say that is my opinion, even though you don't.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
I'll actually say it is my opinion, there you go, Michael, just to show that I am not arrogant.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
If a respondent perceives me to be self-proclaiming my authority, that's their perception, not my position. You have a problem with the logic of it.
"Most Irish trad players". That was in the question, I never said that. And I never replied directly to it either, MacCruiskeen did.
There's no point getting all sarcastic about it.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
It may well be your position, Michael, but if you are getting flak regularly, as posts seem to be saying, it is probably something to do with how you are affecting people's perception. That's fairly logical I would have thought.
Well, Michael, there *might* be a point in getting all sarcastic about it.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
Yeah, I'm not surprised I get flack for holding my position. What I'm basically saying is a little insulting to bodhran players and people don't like being insulted. I do not understand why anyone would put so much effort into the music and yet only want to play half of it? I'm asking a straight forward question to people who play the bodhran.
There are a wealth of answers which I'm not interested in, like: "it's easy" or "so I can play along when I don't know the tune" or "I just like the sound of it" etc. I'm not interested in these people. I just ask them to stop and that's the end of it.
I'm interested in the people who come at it from the right direction, study the music, feel the music, and yet seem content with only half of it.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
They are specialising in the drumming aspect of the genre, Michael, simple as that. (If they are specialising in the sense of being an accomplished and practised player, not just tinkering around and dragging the session down).
I don't see it any differently than the highland pipe band drummers, from the point of view of their specialising in that aspect of the genre (regardless, I hasten to add, of whatever stylistic differences there are between bodhran playing and highland pipe band drummers).
Does your assertion go towards other non-melody instruments at a session as well?
For my own part, by the way, I prefer to play a melody instrument, because for me, that is the best way for me to experience the music - to the extent of my ability anyway.
But I accept that there is place for a well-played bodhran that can add another dimension to the music. It is not mandatory, but there is a place for them - in my opinion anyway.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
"the drumming aspect of the genre"
What is that exactly?
as for the Highland Pipe Band drummers, they are only really part of the Pipe Band tradition but there's much more to Scottish music and, indeed, Scottish bagpipe music than that.
I'm not knocking pipe band drummers either. They have their place but it's a specialised area.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Bodhrans
What exactly is that? - Playing bodhran.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
I think Michael and a few others might argue that they(bodhrans) are not part of the genre, i.e not strictly necessary, pointless even, and..at best harmless.
Of course, many melody instruments including the mandolin aren't regarded to be in the top tier either
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6109
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Bodhrans
Highland Pipe Band drummers play very very different stuff to what the pipers play (I said all this above). The interplay between the drummers and the pipes is very interesting. This is not how the bodhran is played. The drumming aspect of the genre of Irish diddley music is one thump per one note in the tune. they don't add anything, merely replicate
Strummers are not necessary, but they do add layers of harmony. They also replicate the rhythms, but often in a more creative way that the bodhran.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
I'm not interested whether the bodhran is part of the tradition or not. That's not a good enough excuse to not play or to play something
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Yes, heard what you said about the differences in playing styles between Scottish drums and bodhrans - that's why I said regardless of those stylistic differences, the bodhran still has a place, and has had a place no doubt historically, as have the Scottish drums. What they add, Michael, does not depend on your definition of what they should add, I would think. Even if there was one beat per note (which I don't think is always the case anyway), that isn't the criteria for what the bodhran's role would have been historically. That criteria appears to be your's, Michael i.e. the bodhran being "one thump per one note in the tune", therefore 'adds nothing', and therefore somehow doesn't have a place.
Your premise appears to be, Michael, that playing bodhran is an excuse not to play the melody. That's, again, an agenda that you are proposing. I don't actually agree with the premise, Michael.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
A well-played bodhran contributes its own timbre to the music, but that's about it. Personally, I enjoy that timbre, and we're lucky to have several very good drummers at our local seshes. They take turns, and they sit out entire sets, so it's not a constant presence.
Each of them also happily plays or is learning a melody instrument.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
I could not imagine how anyone could say that the bodhran playing backing Tommy Keane in Dusty Miller/Silver Slipper/Willie's Fling off his Piper's Apron album, doesn't add a whole independent, but exciting dimension to that set. I have listened to this set over and over again over the years, and find myself focussing on the piping for almost the entire play, then the bodhran playing on another play, then the guitar on yet another, and then finally, listening to how the sum of the parts is greater than the whole. It is a timeless piece exemplifying, for me anyway, exactly what expert bodhran rhythm can add in the right context. In some ways, that track is almost as much about the bodhran and the guitar interplay, as much as the piping. What a brilliant, classic track.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
"A well-played bodhran contributes its own timbre to the music, but that's about it." Yep, that's about it. Well said Will. I'm pretty sure that adding a completely new and different rhythmic counterpoint, as GHB band drummers do, and merely adding a different timbre are more than stylistic differences.
My premise is not that playing bodhran is an excuse not to play the melody. (Some play it because they don't know the tune, but as I said, I'm not interested in them.) I don't really have a premise, just a question. Why study hard at something when all you are adding is timbre? I have no definition of what they should ad, only the clear definition of what they are incapable of adding.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Listen to some good bodhran playing, Michael, I suggest.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
I have listened to good bodhran playing, and as I said above, I can like it in the right context. Recordings being one of them. But not in a session.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
I'd go so far as to say that when a bodhran adds a rhythmic counterpoint in a session, all it does is muddy what the actual melody players are doing.
Dubh seems to be talking about carefully wrought recordings, with just a few instruments. I suppose a bodhran doing counterpoint can work in those situations, but I still prefer drums when they don't compete with the musicians who are actually playing the melody *and* keeping time. In this music, good melody players continuously layer in their own variations on the rhythm.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
Meh, cross posted, saying basically the same thing.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
Yes, I have rarely heard bodhran playing as good as on that recording in a session. It was no doubt a very well rehearsed piece. To me, though, it absolutely exemplifies what the bodhran can add in the hands of really good players, who are "emotionally in tune" - with the tune, and with what the bodhran can bring to enhance it. It can be done very well, and even in a rhythmic pattern quite divergent from the tune itself - that's where its interest lies, for me anyway. Otherwise, they can run the risk of being fairly pedestrian, I agree. They need, in my opinion, a very creative approach and natural talent for rhythm and how to use that to enhance the quality of the tune.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
Don't think they need to "compete", Will, rather complement. Yes, I have in mind some well practised recordings, but I am sure those players could do the same thing in a session.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Bodhrans
So this was a "well rehearsed piece" trotted out at a session? Hmmm....sounds more like a performance to me.
As I said above, a well-played bodhran complements the music in one way only--it's unique timbre. I enjoy that, at times. But a melody instrument can contribute so much more.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
I think it adds [?] a bit more than timbre, it is one of the few things likely to be at a session low enough in pitch to feel it resonating in ones chest, rather than just hearing it. I have the impression that some listeners like it because of that. 'Heartbeat of irish music" and all that. People are used to some sort of baseline.
I am not disagreeing Michaels reasoning, or suggesting it is a good addition, just saying why I think *some people* like it.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by david_h
Re: Bodhrans
And I don't mean feel it like a lambeg, it is more subtle than that.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by david_h
Re: Bodhrans
That's true, David. Something primal about a low drum. Something "jar of bees" like about all the usual trebly session instruments....
And to be fair, a good player can get a variety of timbres (not just one, as might be inferred from my previous posts) from the goatskin.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
The point has been made that bodhran players should know the melody, and others points have been made that if they're playing the melody -- why don't they just play the melody instead of covering it up with the drum beats? I also play bodhran, and I know the melodies, but when I'm playing the bodhran, the fact that I know the tune doesn't translate to playing the melody on the drum. Quite the opposite actually; knowing the melody allows me to understand the inherent rhythm and come up with ways to support and reinforce the drive already in the tune. It also allows me to anticipate rhythmical changes between parts.
This is also what I listen for in other people's playing. You can tell if someone is familiar enough with the tune's rhythmical structure to provide a complimentary support and enhancement rather than just mindlessly beating along.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
Hasn't it been nice to see a lack of dogmaticism in this thread
Maybe we could start a society - The Society for the Protextion of Cruelty to Bodhranistas (SPCB). Wonder if Llig would be interested in becoming president?
D
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Bodhrans
Button says, "knowing the melody allows me to understand the inherent rhythm and come up with ways to support and reinforce the drive already in the tune. It also allows me to anticipate rhythmical changes between parts."
What stops you doing this when playing the tune? What is it about the drum that you think makes it more suited to doing this than playing the tune?
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
I'm sure Jack will explain this, but I suspect he's describing how a smart drummer applies musicianship to playing, much as any musician would. Which is what makes the bodhran work, when it does.
In other words, he's not using the drum to play melody, but knowing the melody allows him to play musically. Of course that's how good backers on any instrument approach their role.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
Yes, a good strummer will do as Button says, support, reinforce, anticipate - but with harmony as well as rhythm., something a tune player can't do.
But the best tune player will also understand the inherent rhythm and come up with ways to support and reinforce the drive already in the tune. Everything the bodhran can do (except do that "low enough in pitch to feel it resonating in ones chest" thing) - but with harmonic and melodic (same thing really) variation as well.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
Ah, well sometimes I like the support and reinforcement without harmony. A well-played bodhran can lend a bassline and unique timbre while leaving the harmonic choices up to the melody player(s).
The lads of Lunasa used to say they didn't have a bodhran (excpet for Kevin's occasional forays) because they wanted to leave room for rhythmic push and pull. I assume they made a conscious choice to accept the harmonic confines imposed by a guitar and bass....
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
I tend to play the bodhran when other backup isn't playing. This isn't always very easy to do at sessions because people join in randomly, but that's often where I start. I'm not saying they can't or don't work together, I'm just saying what I like to hear. I see the similarity between harmonic backup and the bodhran, but I also recognize the difference. Even though they both play a similar role, they still are two completely different instruments.
I came from a varied musical background and I'm sure this contributes to my appreciation of drumming. Before I played Irish music I played Middle Eastern music, which relies on and makes good use of the drum. For that reason I'm not as concerned about the purity of whether or not the bodhran should be allowed. In my case, I welcome it, provided it's well played.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
Yes, I often like the support and reinforcement without harmony (Stacked harmony that is, the tune is the linear harmony). That's why I like unison playing.
For example, two fiddles. When you get to play tunes you've both known for yonks and played together for yonks. Just two fiddles. Pushing the rhythm yet tied together. And then the little busts of variation, whether exploring extra jumps of rhythmic input or harmonic flights of fancy. Then back to the unison.
I can see that there can be an argument for fiddle and bodhran, where the same rhythmic unison can happen, but the fiddle is free to interpret the linear harmony in as wide a way as it wants. But Irish Diddley music is not John Coltrane and Elvin Jones. The skill and heart of the music does not lie in such open harmonic freedom. It lies in the tunes themselves and how a player relates to the tune. It lies in how the tunes themselves are actually much more rhythmically dense that John Coltrane's saxophone playing and much less harmonically dense.
This is why, at its best, two fiddles will always be better than a fiddle and a bodhran. And why three fiddles will always be better than two fiddles and a bodhran. An why four fiddles and two flutes will always be better that three fiddles, two flutes and a bodhran. etc.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
To each their own, but I don't know if the parameters of ITM are based on your personal preferences. If they are -- please enlighten.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
Anything I write here is of course merely my take on it. How else could it be anything else. I write stuff and take a look who agrees.
Do you agree that the skill and heart of the music does not lie in open harmonic freedom but in the tunes themselves and how a player relates to the tune?
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
heh, watch your step, Jack.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
"Do you agree that the skill and heart of the music does not lie in open harmonic freedom but in the tunes themselves and how a player relates to the tune?"
If you read my posts in this thread alone I believe you'll find your answer.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
If you are bright, and dedicated enough to know the tunes, you'd be playing them.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by llig leahcim
Dedicated, yes Mr Llig, not too sure about the bright bit. I know a lot of melody players who are exceedingly dim, to put it mildly.
And the heart of the music does lie in the tunes themselves, and the bodhran adds to those tunes and that heart by providing a pulse.
And could everyone PLEASE STOP saying a GOOD bodhran player does this and that etc. No one ever posts a GOOD fiddler or piper will relate to the tunes, or add to the music.
A useless any type of player will ruin the music, and I know that a bad piper at a session is even worse that a bad bodhran player.
And I already know that due to the nature of the instrument and its apparent ease to play we do have a lot of poor bodhran players.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
A good fiddler or or piper will relate to the tunes and add to the music.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
I have consistently referred to the like of "a good strummer" and " the best tune player" etc. throughout this discussion. That's what this discussion is about. If I had the best bodhran player in the world sat next to me it wouldn't make me happy.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
I would Mr Llig, I promise.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
Nobody likes a poor player of any instrument at a session. I can put up with a poor tune player to a certain extent because they have likely put in a fair bit of work just to get to poor standard. Bad bodhran players only have to buy a bodhran. Some have barely taken the price tag off.
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by bogman
Re: Bodhrans
I will play the mandolin at your session Bogman, just to get sympathy.
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
My sympathies to you both, bliss and bogman....
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bodhrans
No need Bliss, if bodhran is your weapon of choice you wont get any objections to me. I was only stating why I don't have much time for bad bodhran players. As you know the bodhran is blighted with chancers and that is why most people refer to liking a GOOD bodhran player - because they don't want to encourage even more session ruiners.
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by bogman
Re: Bodhrans
Dose anyone like bodhrans?
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
What about drummers? For example, been playing with this retired fella for a year or two now. His whole life he's been a drummer, he's a retired firefighter professionally. He's played in rock bands, jazz bands, pipe marching bands, ceili bands and sessions. He's been a drummer his whole life, and he's really good at what he does, no matter what the drum. He loves Irish music and drums very well to it, however, he's a drummer, like I said. What the man does is play drums. I wouldn't dream of telling him to not play drums, and I know he's not playing the bodhran because he secretly wants to play a melody instrument. He's had 60+ years to go play something else if he wanted to, however, he's a drummer. That's what he is.
Some people are just drummers. No, I can't explain them either, sorry, but they just are. I, for one, am thankful for them, because with them in the world it's a lot easier to tell a non-drummer trying to drum to "cut the nonsense already, who do you think you are" eh?
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bodhrans
Yes, SWFL, I agree! My son is a drummer, and he also plays guitar, dinks around on the piano, too. But, he's a drummer! He thumps all the time. He's one of those hyperactive kids and drumming is what he does.
# Posted on April 12th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Bodhrans
I like drummers, I like drumming. There are a lot of musics in this world that are incomplete without it. Irish diddley music is not one of them.
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
The oracle has spoken.
Are you coming to the USA next week Mr Llig, or is that the pope?
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Bodhrans
"There are a lot of musics in this world that are incomplete without it. Irish diddley music is not one of them."
I don't see where anyone suggested ITM needs drums to be "complete." The point is there's no reason to exclude them outright.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
I've never once said to exclude them (except if the player is no good, which is more often than not), just that they are pointless.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
"I've never once said to exclude them (except if the player is no good, which is more often than not), just that they are pointless."
Yes, you did say pointless, but the following statements led me to believe that you would prefer to exclude them all together:
1) "My stand is that in a session, at best, bodhrans are pointless. Slighlty less that best, they begin to get irritating. And anything less than that they are feckin' annoying."
2) "My objection is to the bodhran in an Irish music diddley session."
~~~
You also offer some confusing and seemingly contradictory statements:
a) "The bodhran, the very best of them, thumps a beat at the same time a note is played in the tune."
b) "The drumming aspect of the genre of Irish diddley music is one thump per one note in the tune. they don't add anything, merely replicate."
Are you saying that you think the very best bodhran players play in a way that doesn't add anything? Why do you offer praise for a style that is, according to you, so deficient? It sounds to me like you would just prefer the bodhran wasn’t played at all... or excluded.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
I did concede that they can add a certain timbre, but that's all they can add. A timbre that some like, I can either take it or leave it in a session (a gig or recording is a different matter). But that timbre is so invasive that unless the player is absolutely top notch, it ruins the music. Completely destroys it.
And if it's a case of room? Give me a mediocre tune player any time over the best bodhran player. I want to hear tunes. Tunes are what it's about.
I don't see what's contradictory in statements a) and b)?
Yes, I am saying that the very best bodhran players play in a way that don't add anything. They don't contribute anything to the tunes. The music is complete without it. They very best place you can possibly ever hope to get on a bodhran is a situation where you are no longer ruining the music, just an irrelevance.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
So your standards for bodhran players are a lot higher than it is for any other instrument. If a bodhran player shows up at a session where you're playing they will undergo scrutiny disproportionately to all the other instruments? Is this fair?
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Bodhrans
life's not fair
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bodhrans
however, no, not really. The standards are the same. Are you contributing? Are you wrecking? Are you neither? Smae question of anyone.
# Posted on April 14th 2008 by llig leahcim