Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
In light of the recent discussion about whether a certain tune was relevant or not, I recalled that Jeremy's original intentions was that the tunes should be representative of those which might be heard in a typical Irish session. Of course, they didn't need to be universally popular but the guidelines were that you had either heard them on your travels or they featured within your "local session".
Using this criteria, there's surely no problem with including tunes which might not sound particularly Irish or structured in a slightly different way. They could also include tunes from other countries(Scotland, the most obvious example) or cultures, hybrids etc as long as they got a fairly regular airing somewhere.
However, we have now got to the stage where probably(?) all the well known tunes along with most of those which are gaining in popularity have already been included and I find that the majority of the newer submissions are quite obscure. Therefore, I'm not entirely sure how many of them will be benefit to the Tune section.
So, should a tune automatically be submitted JUST because it meets some determined criteria for an "approved" structure of an Irish tune whether a new composition or otherwise?
I'm not against people submitting lesser known tunes, of course. "The more the merrier", perhaps. However, there might be a case for a separate database for this purpose.
What do you thinK?
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
you are promoting censorship with this statement, the size of the tune database doesn't make any odds, if you want to find a certain tune all you have to do is look it up in the database.
The tradition has always grown with new tunes being added to the repertoire, the only way tunes can get into the repertoire is if they are made known to people, now chances that tune I posted of getting into the repertoire are admittedly slim but at least it got people thinking about what is acceptable for a new tune.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Frisbee,
I don't really object to new tunes but I used to find the tune section much more useful. Of course, I can still "search" for particular tunes and it's fairly easy to trace the more popular ones. However, I used to regularly check through the new entries but I find that they have less of an interest for me these days.
The point I was trying to make that it doesn't really matter how a tune is structured or if it is strictly "correct" for an Irish or Scottish tune. The criteria was more to do with whether it appeared (or was likely to do so) in your local session.
So, "perfectly "(I know this is entirely subjective) constructed "Irish tunes" would also have to meet this criteria too.
Certainly, I'm not advocating censorship but I'm just wondering if anyone else felt that the Tune Section was getting a little unwieldy or is it just me?
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
No - I don't browse it much, I only search.
The beauty of internet databases is that it doesn't matter how much irrelevant data there is, as long as the search function can isolate the relevant stuff.
Having said that, I do occasionally look to see what's new, or follow a link from one tune to another or from a discussion to see what it's all about. As I did with frisbee's "controversial" submission.
I can't see any problem with Scottish tunes being submitted - as we all now know, half the Irish tunes are Scottish anyway
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I find the tune section very useful. As a newer player, I downloaded all the midi files so I could learn and remember the tunes. I listen to Celtic Radio a lot, and when I hear a tune I like, I go to The Session to see if it is in the database, and download that tune as well.
For someone who has been playing for years and years, it may be be as useful, but for me it is. When I first started playing, I also used the tunes database to see which ones were the most often downloaded into tune books, so I could learn the popular tunes first.
I would agree with you, Johannnes, that looking at the new tunes probably is not as useful as you might like, but I guess that the price we pay for a website that it such a resource.
I know many people do not like how groups like Solas, Lunasa, Battlefield Band, Return of the Haggis and Altan have started to records their own tunes/songs that may not been within the Irish Tradition, but...the tunes are great and perhaps the Irish Tradition has room for these tunes.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
The whole tune section is a hideous monster that, in the long run, will (and is doing) much much more damage to the music than good.
It's very nature encourages unimaginative laziness, repeated sterility and, worse of all, the non use of your ears.
The midi section in particular is like a venomous bacteria that spreads its fowl outpourings and infects and numbs the minds of those that know no better.
This grossly obese dinosaur should be put out of it's misery.
Stick it on a floppy disk and have done with it.
There is no requirement for a notated dictionary of diddley tunes, especially as band width and memory space is now so abundant that every single entry here could have links to dozens of recorded version.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
For sure there is a wild pile of crap which has been submitted here,particularly in the last year. .But that in understandable when the database had virtually all the good stuff in it already.Taste in music is of course a subjective matter and there can be no censorship but if this website was set up for choice Traditional Irish music then it has got lost along the way.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Well, it's nice for you llig, that you are able to attend sessions and know people from whom to learn tunes. I'm sure many peole who use this site don't have access to a local session, or any other tune resource. Also, not everyone has the amazing power of learning by ear. If people want dots, let them have dots. Being a sheet music reader doesn't make you a bad player.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
There is no requirement for a notated dictionary of diddley tunes, especially as band width and memory space is now so abundant that recorded versions of tunes can be found so easily.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Although I hate listening to midi files the other side of the debate is they are so soulless you have to put your own slant/style on them. This makes you develop your style rather than (even subliminally) copying someone elses.
Also, I don’t read dots particularly quickly, so I learn faster by playing along with the midi – is that so different than learning from a band recording/session?
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Golly, Llig is waxing lyrical - time to duck under the bushes and don tin hats boys and girls!!!
I can't really see the problem with having a written tradition. This is not to dismiss the advantage of an aural one of course, but the problem with the latter is its accessibility. For example, an enthusiast of ITM living in Uttoxter or Aberystwyth in the UK might have some difficulty going to a session to learn new tunes. Of course I hear you say, there are always records (I'm still old enough to prefer them to CDs), but let us assume my poor innocent in the example is unemployed or housebound and cannot afford to buy these albums.
I think we all realise the limitations of midi's and while some of them veer toward amusing, I am (and I am confident my fellow members are) sufficiently discerning to realise the limits of technology. Once I have the dots and the midi I will go off and track down a couple of interpretations of the said piece. Armed with these I then proceed to play (some would say destroy) the tune. Now of course there are severe limits in my approach, but I guess we all have to live within the strictures, of geography, time, finance, family .. I could go on.
If you are fortunate enough to live within range of a herd of old musicians approaching their centenary, then do please take full advantage of their knowledge, experience and wisdom. Put to one side the smell of embrocation oozing from their pores and grab their tunes with zest and vigour, for you are then directly part of a living tradition. But please think of us poor unfortunates who are isolated from such pleasures and rely on the genoristy of those willing to keep us in the loop with those midi's ... and dare I day it - dots too!.
So Jeremy, please keep the datatbase. Indeed I am almost inclined to suggest how lovely it would be to have it in a format similar to the Digital Tradition. Unfortunately, because we are dealing with a type of music that is alive and vibrant, it would require almost monthly upgrades. Shame, so put that daft idea down to the rantings of a grumpy old man
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
If there was no tunes section there would be nowhere for discussions about the tunes. Now some people could say that we should be listening to them and playing them rather than talking about them.
But those people won't be reading this discussion will they ?
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
If you have the music in you, then you will have the skill to make any string of notes passable (see frisbee's tune for example). And if you have the music in you, you will already be able to seperate tune from style.
But the majority of people taking tunes off this site do not have this ability (re Mehetibal's post above). These people "should" be copying someone else's style. They should be copying the styles of the music.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
And there is so much available on the web now that "let us assume my poor innocent in the example is unemployed or housebound and cannot afford to buy these albums" doesn't wash
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
If I am allowed to vote on this issue, I would vote for keeping the tunes section despite its size and the fact that I sometimes have trouble finding tunes because it is so big.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I fear Llig I must reply. You assume everyone can afford albums or the internet. Tragically this is not the case. Many people (and I include myself) are forced to live on a much reduced income. Most of these do not consider CD's or the internet a priority when they have the daily chore of facing an increasing food bill. In these cases the only available option to them is either rely on the generosity of friends willing to print off the dots or databases such as found on this site.
It is very easy in the comfort of middle class homes to forget there are many out there for whom ITM would be unavailable if it were not for this site. Jeremy's efforts should be applauded and not condemned.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Being honest, the tunes database is what makes this site what it is (whatever that is...). There are enough other forums around where one can talk/rant/debate about this stuff anyway.
I do agree that the MIDI versions should probably be scrapped, or replaced with some public domain MP3s (where available) of the tune done decently.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Well, it's got a search function, right? The joys of technology! You can have a big ol' database and query it with a search engine! Will wonders never cease? [/sarcasm] I barely go into the thing anymore, but when I do, I use the search function.
I never look at the new tunes, I'll be honest. I think it's cool that people write tunes and post them, but there are so many old classic tunes to learn already. I'll be plenty busy with those for the duration of this fiddler's lifespan, I'm sure!
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Did anybody tell Chief O'Neill he had too many tunes in his collection?
That's just silly. Keep the tunes section. Make it ten times as big, if the tunes are out there. Worry more about accuracy than whether it's too big. Maybe some functionality to break out versions by players a little bit more. Say, a subdirectory to each tune (hidden from the main menu and tune search, but visible once you get to the tune itself) that boils down the different variations as heard on a given recording.
The top level transcriptions should simple and accessible to the intermediate player. The second transcriptions can be as detailed as our skills will allow.
The section contains more than just the dots and the midis, whose merits or otherwise have been widely debated.
I've never used the midi function, and find that the more tunes I commit to memory I (perhaps obviously) use the sheetmusic tabs less and less. However what I do find useful is the link for each tune to the various recordings of it. Also, many of the comments (by members whose opinions I've come to value) in the Tunes section have prompted me to find/listen to/ buy particular recordings. eg this is how I came to get Frankie Gavin/Brock/Lennon's 'Tribute to Joe Coooley'
I say keep the Tunes section (but maybe the midi function is more dangerous than the dots!)
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Hi llig, yes I know what a roll is.
And I, personally, like the tunes section. It's for searching, and is a useful resource when there is a someone-played-a-tune-last-night-and-I-can-remember-what-it's-called-but-not-how-it-went situation. Or if the B section of something has escaped my mind. We're not all superhuman, you know.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
This site ISN'T Irish music? Oh piglets I've just wasted the last couple of years thinking it was - faithfully replicating every midi and every dot ... to the letter! Who needs ornamentation
Guess I'll have to make balsawood aeroplanes now instead.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Thanks for all the responses.
Of course, I want to keep the Tune Section but thought that there were now too many new and relatively unknown tunes being submitted these days. It just seemed that we had, in some ways, created a monster (As Michael suggests) and the nature of the Tune section had changed greatly from its original concept.
Of course, I take the point that we have a search facility to trace those tunes we really want and it's a simple matter too to ascertain which tunes are more popular.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
... though I don't get anyone making a distinction between the abc, the dots and the midi. The three are merely different ways of presenting precisely the same information. Precisely the same woefully inadequate information
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I don't know if jeremy could do this, but what if a tag was added to a tune when a certain percentage of member have added it to their tunebook? Or even better, add a variable where you can put where you have heard the tune played in a session.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
"Although I hate listening to midi files the other side of the debate is they are so soulless you have to put your own slant/style on them. This makes you develop your style rather than (even subliminally) copying someone elses."
Or the midi files are so soulless they make you sound highly stylized compared to them. Depends on the player I suppose!
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Yes, nobody told Chief O'Neill he had too many tunes in his collection. But how many here wish that his mate, the sergent, was a diddley player? And how many more wish he had had a really nice mini disk recorder instead of a pencil and paper?
But he didn't. He did the best with what was available to him at the time. Which is not what this collection does.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Just some quick thoughts while I'm at fieldwork:
"Did anybody tell Chief O'Neill he had too many tunes in his collection?"
Actually, yes! One of the factors behind the revision of O'Neill's Music of Ireland (The 1850) into the Dance Music of Ireland was the criticism that O'Neill and crew received about including "non-Irish" tunes in the first edition. Pick up a copy of Caoimhin Mac Aoidh's "The Scribe--The Life and Works of James O'Neill."
The original question of this thread is valid from an organization of information standpoint. No disrespect is inteded towards Jeremy on this, but a lack of authority control/controlled vocabulary (ie quality control in transcriptions, controlled authority files for tune names, etc.) hampers searching the database. Again, I don't want to discredit jeremy's efforts and work on the site, but this is a by-product of any communal database effort.
Additionally, excluding different settings of tunes from the database prohibits centralized searching through the advanced search function. I'm pretty sure you could search the ABCs from the comments sections, but the underlying problem is that this would exclude the "main" versions in the database itself.
Ideally it would be nice to see each tune entry have an option "settings" abc submittal field that connects into the advanced search function. I've yet to wrap my head around any kind of solution for the name control problem (like when someone enters in an album's tunes and it links to the incorrect tune entry, even though the correct one might be available).
(yes, I'm a library/information studies student, if anyone's wondering! ;) )
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Additional:
this site a somewhat reliable way to find recordings of tunes you want to learn. As far as the availability of such recordings in a non-online yet still free way, get over to a library! You'll likely be able to interlibrary loan the majority of the recordings listed on this site--and most libraries still have record players if the only copy is on LP!
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I get Michael's point. Some people tend to look at this site as some authority regarding tunes. And the original posted setting of a tune is what is "officially" displayed when you search. Better (or at least different) settings can be found in the comments section of many tunes, and that makes it much more useful.
But if people LEARN tunes strictly from the displayed setting (as opposed to just using it as a point of reference), they might be learning a lousy setting, and if enough people do that, then it can homogenize and pollute the music. And if people don't already have a grasp on making it sound right, then it is polluting the waters even further, because as he states, the dots are "woefully inadequate" when it comes to notating what it actually sounds like with the lift, lilt, swing, and ornamentation.
When I teach tunes in the learning session that I run, I teach a tune the way that I play it. People sometimes come back and say "the setting on thesession is very different", and I always encourage them to find as many sources as possible and explore the differences. But what's most important may be to initially learn a setting that is played locally. Then when you become more intimate with the tune, you can expand your setting to include other bits.
What I would like to see is for the tune archive to be re-worked so that there can be multiple settings of a tune displayed without having to dig through the comments, which would lessen the idea that "THIS is the way this tune goes...".
But Jeremy gets a ton of traffic on this site, and doesn't force advertising down our throats or charge us membership fees, so I'm sure not going to ask him to do a lot of work on it without pay. Now if we were all to pick a day and each donate a couple quid via PayPal to try to get him to make some changes, that might be another thing
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
The obscure tunes are not a problem, in my opinion. As Bren points out way above, the beauty of an internet database IS that you search, not flip through one by one, to get what you're looking for. Filtering the entire database of tunes by some set of criteria (the question of exactly what criteria is left as an exercise to the reader) would take a huge amount of human work-hours, costing far more than the extra storage space to keep the tunes that would have been filtered.
I do appreciate your comment, JohannesJ, about wanting to be able to browse for gems you've overlooked. What if there were a function to sort tunes by the number of tunebooks they've been added to, or the number of recordings they've appeared on? Or some kind of "people who added this tune also added..." Functions like these would help separate the more popular from the more obscure, and would require less time and controversy than filtering by hand.
Thinking on a wider, more fanciful scale, it would be incredibly cool if the site kept track of the geographical popularity of the tunes as well - which hornpipes are popular in Australia right now? Quebec? Which ones are gaining most quickly in popularity? Given the sheer number and geographic spread of its members, there's a wealth of untapped information in the tune database. I sense a graduate thesis in here somewhere...
I agree with Reverend's wish for multiple settings of a tune displayed, but also with his observations that we'd be pushing our luck expecting this, tune content filtering, and certainly my ideas above, from a non-profit, non-advertisement site.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
"What if there were a function to sort tunes by the number of tunebooks they've been added to?"
There is: click on 'Members' and then on the 'tunebook' tab.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Re: the musings o' the rev:
Can we extend that to a community buy out of the sesh?!
Much though I agree it is alot of work for Jeremy etc etc, he should of thought of that before he created the monster that this has become - he(and we) nevertheless have an ethical responsibility. Much though I am not the elitist I used to be, and don't believe a genuine authenticity or conservatism of traditional music is really possible, I nevertheless think a great deal of harm can be done to what we know as irish traditional music by this sort of tune inflation and inaccuracy and aberrant methodology.....
It shows the tradition is not dead as long as it is open to interpretation. If it is not what it used to be (or is supposed to be) . . .
when is the last time a blind harpist paid his/her keep by composing a 'planxty'?
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
MIDI and abc don't have to be for learning tunes. I admit to using them for this at first, but now (after less than 2 yrs. playing) I use the database here mostly to find the name of whatever is in my head.
The tunebook function I use mostly for the reverse... click through the titles that are familiar but which I don't quite associate with a tune, hit the MIDI for a few seconds and "ah, that's the one it is." The MIDI, while woefully inadequate, conjures up the rest of the tune from somewhere in memory.
(And, I feel the need to point out that I don't go about this in an obsessive way... It's not as a method of forcing myself to learn tunes, or trying to accumulate as many as possible. It's just a tool that I use occasionally. Although some day, I WOULD like to know a lot of tunes.)
Michael is right, the technology and bandwidth of today allow for a much better representation and access to tunes than is displayed here. It's a shame we don't have some collaborative effort, such as the Mighty Craic, to record versions of all the common tunes and place them together in a useful online archive. That being said, I don't like the view that recordings should just be linked from a "comment" tab, or that one should just search the net. A little too much entropy for me. Let's put 'em all in one place.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
It's like o'Neills, with some duff settings and misnomers up at the tune headings, except that there are the comments, which provide any amount of valuable correction and additional material, either in the comments or via links - that's where it's an improvement on O'Neill's. It's a formidable resource. I don't think it's overblown as long as it's not in danger of using up the computer space available for it and as long as tunes can easily be fished up by name or category. I must say, though, I've never managed to locate anything using the advanced search with abc's - it's my computer's fault or else the Session website's fault, my abc's can be erratic but they're not *that* bad.
Culling tunes could pose piquant problems. Email referenda on certain tunes - keep or cull? (I think the tunes that attract the most hate are well-established ones that even their detractors see as being part of the traditional core.) Denunciations of tunes sent to Jeremy, with accounts of their misdeeds? Piteous pleas for clemency? Taking out duff or alien tunes is I think best left to Jeremy if it's necessary, with the minimum of hullabaloo.
Many collections of tunes contemporary with them have accreted a lot of dull tunes: I'm thinking of Kerr's Merry Melodies, Playford and various present and past Northumbrian collections. This doesn't detract from the gems in these collections, and seems an inevitable factor in the making of a contemporary tune-book which aspires to be very comprehensive, which is what the Tunes section here essentially is.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Sure, ideally we'd each learn all of our tunes by taking the gravel walk down the lane to the cottage in the glen and sit on the stoney step with the scholar of tunes. That's the best way to learn this music and this tradition. But the music has spread to hell and back beyond those days. Some of us are fortunate enough to live around other players immersed in the tradition, so we can still learn tunes person to person. Some of us have worked hard to create that opportunity despite not living in one of the emerald counties. Some travel there and bring tunes back with them.
So there are ways of keeping traditional learning alive. And I'd encourage anyone to pursue them--learning by ear from another player who knows what it's all about is still the best way to learn and play this music. Written notation, recordings, midi files, etc., are all a shabby second (or exponentially more distant) best. The less experience you have with this music, the less helpful these other methods are. Potentially misleading and destructive, even.
But for players who bring (or are actively developing) a deep understanding of the music and its tradition, a tune collection such as thesession.org is a useful supplement to the aural passing of tunes.
No system is idiot proof. But thank goodness not everyone is an idiot.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I just had a lovely visit with an old friend. He plays mandolin. We sessioned together for years. He's been busy for the past few months with holiday gigs (St. P) and then moving. Turning 60 soon, played for years. I'm dragging him back out now that he's settled again and it's 'slow' season down here as the hot summer starts.
I played him two polkas I figgered out (we love polkas) recently, quite happy with myself, because I did it by ear without much effort, simply by listening to them on a favorite recording way too much. He then proceeded to show me how it was done, by simply playing along with me with I gave them a steady pace four times each.
Now, as I'm leaving, he asked me the names of them, so he can come here and look them up, I just know it. He knows them already, but I know him, he's going to grab the ABCs and stash them and check them out until he's happy. I was happy though, you would have been happy. Sounded spiffy to me.
So no, once again, the tune section is great. He and I have used it for several years now and passed it on, along with doing it the proper way, with the stress on the latter, for the same amount of time.
Like the Rev said, settings are key. So many times what you see doesn't match what you hear.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
The big problem with making something idiot proof is that Nature will alway develop a better idiot.Perhaps it would be to much to ask if members would record a short .mp3 or .wav of the tunes and link in the data base so that other could learn by ear. Even learning by ear off a machine (record, CD and so forth) is less than ideal but if there were a half dozen examples, it would help a lot. I am not sure one could devise a test that would separate those who have learned a tune aurally from those who have learned a tune visually. It seems that once one learns a tune, one makes it one's own. My vote is to keep the database, and enlist others to develop better tools for searching.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
The idea of judging a tune by how many times it's been added to a tunebook is very coarse. I'd reckon lots of people here look up tunes to check a few notes, look up a recording or a setting or comments and that's that - they don't be adding them to their tunebooks..
So, you'd need to classify by the number of times a tune is accessed - then you'd have a problem with webtrawlers I suppose.
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Judging a tune by how many times it's been added might be useful for finding new tunes but you're right, twh, it'd be a self-selected sample and therefore tricky to use for research... I've seen profiles of people who know hundreds of tunes but only have one or two in their tunebook, usually obscure.
Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
In light of the recent discussion about whether a certain tune was relevant or not, I recalled that Jeremy's original intentions was that the tunes should be representative of those which might be heard in a typical Irish session. Of course, they didn't need to be universally popular but the guidelines were that you had either heard them on your travels or they featured within your "local session".
Using this criteria, there's surely no problem with including tunes which might not sound particularly Irish or structured in a slightly different way. They could also include tunes from other countries(Scotland, the most obvious example) or cultures, hybrids etc as long as they got a fairly regular airing somewhere.
However, we have now got to the stage where probably(?) all the well known tunes along with most of those which are gaining in popularity have already been included and I find that the majority of the newer submissions are quite obscure. Therefore, I'm not entirely sure how many of them will be benefit to the Tune section.
So, should a tune automatically be submitted JUST because it meets some determined criteria for an "approved" structure of an Irish tune whether a new composition or otherwise?
I'm not against people submitting lesser known tunes, of course. "The more the merrier", perhaps. However, there might be a case for a separate database for this purpose.
What do you thinK?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
you are promoting censorship with this statement, the size of the tune database doesn't make any odds, if you want to find a certain tune all you have to do is look it up in the database.
The tradition has always grown with new tunes being added to the repertoire, the only way tunes can get into the repertoire is if they are made known to people, now chances that tune I posted of getting into the repertoire are admittedly slim but at least it got people thinking about what is acceptable for a new tune.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8426
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by woD
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Frisbee,
I don't really object to new tunes but I used to find the tune section much more useful. Of course, I can still "search" for particular tunes and it's fairly easy to trace the more popular ones. However, I used to regularly check through the new entries but I find that they have less of an interest for me these days.
The point I was trying to make that it doesn't really matter how a tune is structured or if it is strictly "correct" for an Irish or Scottish tune. The criteria was more to do with whether it appeared (or was likely to do so) in your local session.
So, "perfectly "(I know this is entirely subjective) constructed "Irish tunes" would also have to meet this criteria too.
Certainly, I'm not advocating censorship but I'm just wondering if anyone else felt that the Tune Section was getting a little unwieldy or is it just me?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
No - I don't browse it much, I only search.
The beauty of internet databases is that it doesn't matter how much irrelevant data there is, as long as the search function can isolate the relevant stuff.
Having said that, I do occasionally look to see what's new, or follow a link from one tune to another or from a discussion to see what it's all about. As I did with frisbee's "controversial" submission.
I can't see any problem with Scottish tunes being submitted - as we all now know, half the Irish tunes are Scottish anyway
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Bren
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I find the tune section very useful. As a newer player, I downloaded all the midi files so I could learn and remember the tunes. I listen to Celtic Radio a lot, and when I hear a tune I like, I go to The Session to see if it is in the database, and download that tune as well.
For someone who has been playing for years and years, it may be be as useful, but for me it is. When I first started playing, I also used the tunes database to see which ones were the most often downloaded into tune books, so I could learn the popular tunes first.
I would agree with you, Johannnes, that looking at the new tunes probably is not as useful as you might like, but I guess that the price we pay for a website that it such a resource.
I know many people do not like how groups like Solas, Lunasa, Battlefield Band, Return of the Haggis and Altan have started to records their own tunes/songs that may not been within the Irish Tradition, but...the tunes are great and perhaps the Irish Tradition has room for these tunes.
Just my opinion!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Celtic Guitar
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
The whole tune section is a hideous monster that, in the long run, will (and is doing) much much more damage to the music than good.
It's very nature encourages unimaginative laziness, repeated sterility and, worse of all, the non use of your ears.
The midi section in particular is like a venomous bacteria that spreads its fowl outpourings and infects and numbs the minds of those that know no better.
This grossly obese dinosaur should be put out of it's misery.
Stick it on a floppy disk and have done with it.
There is no requirement for a notated dictionary of diddley tunes, especially as band width and memory space is now so abundant that every single entry here could have links to dozens of recorded version.
Kill kill kill kill
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
For sure there is a wild pile of crap which has been submitted here,particularly in the last year. .But that in understandable when the database had virtually all the good stuff in it already.Taste in music is of course a subjective matter and there can be no censorship but if this website was set up for choice Traditional Irish music then it has got lost along the way.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by cos
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Well, it's nice for you llig, that you are able to attend sessions and know people from whom to learn tunes. I'm sure many peole who use this site don't have access to a local session, or any other tune resource. Also, not everyone has the amazing power of learning by ear. If people want dots, let them have dots. Being a sheet music reader doesn't make you a bad player.
I think the tunes section is great.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I've just seen the latest tune submission
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/8427
which appears to have been done as a bit of a joke?
Having said that, it's catchy enough and just as good as many other entries.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
There is no requirement for a notated dictionary of diddley tunes, especially as band width and memory space is now so abundant that recorded versions of tunes can be found so easily.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Why dont you have a Members Compositions section..
And that would divide it up a bit???
jim,,,
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
What I'd like to see are tunes submitted for album entries that would complete a full album.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Why? Because you are too lazy too learn the tunes straight off the recording?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Great stuff. I should get back to posting new threads here on a much more regular basis.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Although I hate listening to midi files the other side of the debate is they are so soulless you have to put your own slant/style on them. This makes you develop your style rather than (even subliminally) copying someone elses.
Also, I don’t read dots particularly quickly, so I learn faster by playing along with the midi – is that so different than learning from a band recording/session?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by SeanMc
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Golly, Llig is waxing lyrical - time to duck under the bushes and don tin hats boys and girls!!!
I can't really see the problem with having a written tradition. This is not to dismiss the advantage of an aural one of course, but the problem with the latter is its accessibility. For example, an enthusiast of ITM living in Uttoxter or Aberystwyth in the UK might have some difficulty going to a session to learn new tunes. Of course I hear you say, there are always records (I'm still old enough to prefer them to CDs), but let us assume my poor innocent in the example is unemployed or housebound and cannot afford to buy these albums.
I think we all realise the limitations of midi's and while some of them veer toward amusing, I am (and I am confident my fellow members are) sufficiently discerning to realise the limits of technology. Once I have the dots and the midi I will go off and track down a couple of interpretations of the said piece. Armed with these I then proceed to play (some would say destroy) the tune. Now of course there are severe limits in my approach, but I guess we all have to live within the strictures, of geography, time, finance, family .. I could go on.
If you are fortunate enough to live within range of a herd of old musicians approaching their centenary, then do please take full advantage of their knowledge, experience and wisdom. Put to one side the smell of embrocation oozing from their pores and grab their tunes with zest and vigour, for you are then directly part of a living tradition. But please think of us poor unfortunates who are isolated from such pleasures and rely on the genoristy of those willing to keep us in the loop with those midi's ... and dare I day it - dots too!.
So Jeremy, please keep the datatbase. Indeed I am almost inclined to suggest how lovely it would be to have it in a format similar to the Digital Tradition. Unfortunately, because we are dealing with a type of music that is alive and vibrant, it would require almost monthly upgrades. Shame, so put that daft idea down to the rantings of a grumpy old man
D
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
If there was no tunes section there would be nowhere for discussions about the tunes. Now some people could say that we should be listening to them and playing them rather than talking about them.
But those people won't be reading this discussion will they ?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by david_h
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
If you have the music in you, then you will have the skill to make any string of notes passable (see frisbee's tune for example). And if you have the music in you, you will already be able to seperate tune from style.
But the majority of people taking tunes off this site do not have this ability (re Mehetibal's post above). These people "should" be copying someone else's style. They should be copying the styles of the music.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
And there is so much available on the web now that "let us assume my poor innocent in the example is unemployed or housebound and cannot afford to buy these albums" doesn't wash
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
No.
Noooooooo.
NOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by cathrynb
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
If I am allowed to vote on this issue, I would vote for keeping the tunes section despite its size and the fact that I sometimes have trouble finding tunes because it is so big.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I fear Llig I must reply. You assume everyone can afford albums or the internet. Tragically this is not the case. Many people (and I include myself) are forced to live on a much reduced income. Most of these do not consider CD's or the internet a priority when they have the daily chore of facing an increasing food bill. In these cases the only available option to them is either rely on the generosity of friends willing to print off the dots or databases such as found on this site.
It is very easy in the comfort of middle class homes to forget there are many out there for whom ITM would be unavailable if it were not for this site. Jeremy's efforts should be applauded and not condemned.
D
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Yeah, let's have a vote. All those who think they know what a roll is say "Aye".
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
If you can log on to this site, you can log on to the comhaltas videos and many many more etc etc etc.
"there are many out there for whom ITM would be unavailable if it were not for this site"
Bollox, You see this is what I'm afraid off. People thinking that this site IS Irish music
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Being honest, the tunes database is what makes this site what it is (whatever that is...). There are enough other forums around where one can talk/rant/debate about this stuff anyway.
I do agree that the MIDI versions should probably be scrapped, or replaced with some public domain MP3s (where available) of the tune done decently.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Crackpot
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Well, it's got a search function, right? The joys of technology! You can have a big ol' database and query it with a search engine! Will wonders never cease? [/sarcasm] I barely go into the thing anymore, but when I do, I use the search function.
I never look at the new tunes, I'll be honest. I think it's cool that people write tunes and post them, but there are so many old classic tunes to learn already. I'll be plenty busy with those for the duration of this fiddler's lifespan, I'm sure!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I still find it invaluable and a fascinating resource to delve into.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Did anybody tell Chief O'Neill he had too many tunes in his collection?
That's just silly. Keep the tunes section. Make it ten times as big, if the tunes are out there. Worry more about accuracy than whether it's too big. Maybe some functionality to break out versions by players a little bit more. Say, a subdirectory to each tune (hidden from the main menu and tune search, but visible once you get to the tune itself) that boils down the different variations as heard on a given recording.
The top level transcriptions should simple and accessible to the intermediate player. The second transcriptions can be as detailed as our skills will allow.
But keep the obscure ones!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
The Tunes section
The section contains more than just the dots and the midis, whose merits or otherwise have been widely debated.
I've never used the midi function, and find that the more tunes I commit to memory I (perhaps obviously) use the sheetmusic tabs less and less. However what I do find useful is the link for each tune to the various recordings of it. Also, many of the comments (by members whose opinions I've come to value) in the Tunes section have prompted me to find/listen to/ buy particular recordings. eg this is how I came to get Frankie Gavin/Brock/Lennon's 'Tribute to Joe Coooley'
I say keep the Tunes section (but maybe the midi function is more dangerous than the dots!)
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by domnull
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
.... or even " Cooley "
(and I won't mention whose comments prompted me to get that CD, but he's everyone's favourite member!)
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by domnull
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
OK then, keep it
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Hi llig, yes I know what a roll is.
And I, personally, like the tunes section. It's for searching, and is a useful resource when there is a someone-played-a-tune-last-night-and-I-can-remember-what-it's-called-but-not-how-it-went situation. Or if the B section of something has escaped my mind. We're not all superhuman, you know.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
This site ISN'T Irish music? Oh piglets I've just wasted the last couple of years thinking it was - faithfully replicating every midi and every dot ... to the letter! Who needs ornamentation
Guess I'll have to make balsawood aeroplanes now instead.
D
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I'll join you in the aeroplane-making thing...
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by mehitabel23
So the Tunes section stays !
End of thread
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by domnull
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Thanks for all the responses.
Of course, I want to keep the Tune Section but thought that there were now too many new and relatively unknown tunes being submitted these days. It just seemed that we had, in some ways, created a monster (As Michael suggests) and the nature of the Tune section had changed greatly from its original concept.
Of course, I take the point that we have a search facility to trace those tunes we really want and it's a simple matter too to ascertain which tunes are more popular.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
... though I don't get anyone making a distinction between the abc, the dots and the midi. The three are merely different ways of presenting precisely the same information. Precisely the same woefully inadequate information
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Woefully inadequate at the best of times. More often than not, just plain wrong
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I don't know if jeremy could do this, but what if a tag was added to a tune when a certain percentage of member have added it to their tunebook? Or even better, add a variable where you can put where you have heard the tune played in a session.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Criostoir
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I like having the tunes available because sometimes I hear a tune that I really liked at a session but couldn't learn because the fiddler was too fast
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Criostoir
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
"Although I hate listening to midi files the other side of the debate is they are so soulless you have to put your own slant/style on them. This makes you develop your style rather than (even subliminally) copying someone elses."
Or the midi files are so soulless they make you sound highly stylized compared to them. Depends on the player I suppose!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by VocalDivaSteed
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Yes, nobody told Chief O'Neill he had too many tunes in his collection. But how many here wish that his mate, the sergent, was a diddley player? And how many more wish he had had a really nice mini disk recorder instead of a pencil and paper?
But he didn't. He did the best with what was available to him at the time. Which is not what this collection does.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Just some quick thoughts while I'm at fieldwork:
"Did anybody tell Chief O'Neill he had too many tunes in his collection?"
Actually, yes! One of the factors behind the revision of O'Neill's Music of Ireland (The 1850) into the Dance Music of Ireland was the criticism that O'Neill and crew received about including "non-Irish" tunes in the first edition. Pick up a copy of Caoimhin Mac Aoidh's "The Scribe--The Life and Works of James O'Neill."
The original question of this thread is valid from an organization of information standpoint. No disrespect is inteded towards Jeremy on this, but a lack of authority control/controlled vocabulary (ie quality control in transcriptions, controlled authority files for tune names, etc.) hampers searching the database. Again, I don't want to discredit jeremy's efforts and work on the site, but this is a by-product of any communal database effort.
Additionally, excluding different settings of tunes from the database prohibits centralized searching through the advanced search function. I'm pretty sure you could search the ABCs from the comments sections, but the underlying problem is that this would exclude the "main" versions in the database itself.
Ideally it would be nice to see each tune entry have an option "settings" abc submittal field that connects into the advanced search function. I've yet to wrap my head around any kind of solution for the name control problem (like when someone enters in an album's tunes and it links to the incorrect tune entry, even though the correct one might be available).
(yes, I'm a library/information studies student, if anyone's wondering! ;) )
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Additional:
this site a somewhat reliable way to find recordings of tunes you want to learn. As far as the availability of such recordings in a non-online yet still free way, get over to a library! You'll likely be able to interlibrary loan the majority of the recordings listed on this site--and most libraries still have record players if the only copy is on LP!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by dr_funkenstein
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I get Michael's point. Some people tend to look at this site as some authority regarding tunes. And the original posted setting of a tune is what is "officially" displayed when you search. Better (or at least different) settings can be found in the comments section of many tunes, and that makes it much more useful.
But if people LEARN tunes strictly from the displayed setting (as opposed to just using it as a point of reference), they might be learning a lousy setting, and if enough people do that, then it can homogenize and pollute the music. And if people don't already have a grasp on making it sound right, then it is polluting the waters even further, because as he states, the dots are "woefully inadequate" when it comes to notating what it actually sounds like with the lift, lilt, swing, and ornamentation.
When I teach tunes in the learning session that I run, I teach a tune the way that I play it. People sometimes come back and say "the setting on thesession is very different", and I always encourage them to find as many sources as possible and explore the differences. But what's most important may be to initially learn a setting that is played locally. Then when you become more intimate with the tune, you can expand your setting to include other bits.
What I would like to see is for the tune archive to be re-worked so that there can be multiple settings of a tune displayed without having to dig through the comments, which would lessen the idea that "THIS is the way this tune goes...".
But Jeremy gets a ton of traffic on this site, and doesn't force advertising down our throats or charge us membership fees, so I'm sure not going to ask him to do a lot of work on it without pay. Now if we were all to pick a day and each donate a couple quid via PayPal to try to get him to make some changes, that might be another thing
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
The obscure tunes are not a problem, in my opinion. As Bren points out way above, the beauty of an internet database IS that you search, not flip through one by one, to get what you're looking for. Filtering the entire database of tunes by some set of criteria (the question of exactly what criteria is left as an exercise to the reader) would take a huge amount of human work-hours, costing far more than the extra storage space to keep the tunes that would have been filtered.
I do appreciate your comment, JohannesJ, about wanting to be able to browse for gems you've overlooked. What if there were a function to sort tunes by the number of tunebooks they've been added to, or the number of recordings they've appeared on? Or some kind of "people who added this tune also added..." Functions like these would help separate the more popular from the more obscure, and would require less time and controversy than filtering by hand.
Thinking on a wider, more fanciful scale, it would be incredibly cool if the site kept track of the geographical popularity of the tunes as well - which hornpipes are popular in Australia right now? Quebec? Which ones are gaining most quickly in popularity? Given the sheer number and geographic spread of its members, there's a wealth of untapped information in the tune database. I sense a graduate thesis in here somewhere...
I agree with Reverend's wish for multiple settings of a tune displayed, but also with his observations that we'd be pushing our luck expecting this, tune content filtering, and certainly my ideas above, from a non-profit, non-advertisement site.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by fliedermaus
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
"What if there were a function to sort tunes by the number of tunebooks they've been added to?"
There is: click on 'Members' and then on the 'tunebook' tab.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Ramiro
Tune Section overblown?
In my humble opinion the best content in "Tunes"
is under its' "Comments"
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
At least nobody has devised a "Random Trad Tune Generator" in which you just enter rythm and key and out pops a "traditional" tune. Or have they?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by PatrickJWK
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
@Ramiro: Sweet! Thanks!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by fliedermaus
*
There is one but it only gives you
bodhran notation. ;)
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Don't you guys have anything better to do?? Maybe go play an instrument? C'mon. Any site that Clare Keville from Clare FM likes is ok by me.
PS- I think there are 30002 angels on the head of a pin... so there
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by I_Fel
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Re: the musings o' the rev:
Can we extend that to a community buy out of the sesh?!
Much though I agree it is alot of work for Jeremy etc etc, he should of thought of that before he created the monster that this has become - he(and we) nevertheless have an ethical responsibility. Much though I am not the elitist I used to be, and don't believe a genuine authenticity or conservatism of traditional music is really possible, I nevertheless think a great deal of harm can be done to what we know as irish traditional music by this sort of tune inflation and inaccuracy and aberrant methodology.....
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Jamie
Tune Section become comment
It shows the tradition is not dead as long as it is open to interpretation. If it is not what it used to be (or is supposed to be) . . .
when is the last time a blind harpist paid his/her keep by composing a 'planxty'?
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
MIDI and abc don't have to be for learning tunes. I admit to using them for this at first, but now (after less than 2 yrs. playing) I use the database here mostly to find the name of whatever is in my head.
The tunebook function I use mostly for the reverse... click through the titles that are familiar but which I don't quite associate with a tune, hit the MIDI for a few seconds and "ah, that's the one it is." The MIDI, while woefully inadequate, conjures up the rest of the tune from somewhere in memory.
(And, I feel the need to point out that I don't go about this in an obsessive way... It's not as a method of forcing myself to learn tunes, or trying to accumulate as many as possible. It's just a tool that I use occasionally. Although some day, I WOULD like to know a lot of tunes.)
Michael is right, the technology and bandwidth of today allow for a much better representation and access to tunes than is displayed here. It's a shame we don't have some collaborative effort, such as the Mighty Craic, to record versions of all the common tunes and place them together in a useful online archive. That being said, I don't like the view that recordings should just be linked from a "comment" tab, or that one should just search the net. A little too much entropy for me. Let's put 'em all in one place.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by silver bow
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
It's like o'Neills, with some duff settings and misnomers up at the tune headings, except that there are the comments, which provide any amount of valuable correction and additional material, either in the comments or via links - that's where it's an improvement on O'Neill's. It's a formidable resource. I don't think it's overblown as long as it's not in danger of using up the computer space available for it and as long as tunes can easily be fished up by name or category. I must say, though, I've never managed to locate anything using the advanced search with abc's - it's my computer's fault or else the Session website's fault, my abc's can be erratic but they're not *that* bad.
Culling tunes could pose piquant problems. Email referenda on certain tunes - keep or cull? (I think the tunes that attract the most hate are well-established ones that even their detractors see as being part of the traditional core.) Denunciations of tunes sent to Jeremy, with accounts of their misdeeds? Piteous pleas for clemency? Taking out duff or alien tunes is I think best left to Jeremy if it's necessary, with the minimum of hullabaloo.
Many collections of tunes contemporary with them have accreted a lot of dull tunes: I'm thinking of Kerr's Merry Melodies, Playford and various present and past Northumbrian collections. This doesn't detract from the gems in these collections, and seems an inevitable factor in the making of a contemporary tune-book which aspires to be very comprehensive, which is what the Tunes section here essentially is.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Sure, ideally we'd each learn all of our tunes by taking the gravel walk down the lane to the cottage in the glen and sit on the stoney step with the scholar of tunes. That's the best way to learn this music and this tradition. But the music has spread to hell and back beyond those days. Some of us are fortunate enough to live around other players immersed in the tradition, so we can still learn tunes person to person. Some of us have worked hard to create that opportunity despite not living in one of the emerald counties. Some travel there and bring tunes back with them.
So there are ways of keeping traditional learning alive. And I'd encourage anyone to pursue them--learning by ear from another player who knows what it's all about is still the best way to learn and play this music. Written notation, recordings, midi files, etc., are all a shabby second (or exponentially more distant) best. The less experience you have with this music, the less helpful these other methods are. Potentially misleading and destructive, even.
But for players who bring (or are actively developing) a deep understanding of the music and its tradition, a tune collection such as thesession.org is a useful supplement to the aural passing of tunes.
No system is idiot proof. But thank goodness not everyone is an idiot.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Perhaps if people made more constructive comments in the 'comments' section, it would help both the posters and the viewers?
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Imnotirish
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
I just had a lovely visit with an old friend. He plays mandolin. We sessioned together for years. He's been busy for the past few months with holiday gigs (St. P) and then moving. Turning 60 soon, played for years. I'm dragging him back out now that he's settled again and it's 'slow' season down here as the hot summer starts.
I played him two polkas I figgered out (we love polkas) recently, quite happy with myself, because I did it by ear without much effort, simply by listening to them on a favorite recording way too much. He then proceeded to show me how it was done, by simply playing along with me with I gave them a steady pace four times each.
Now, as I'm leaving, he asked me the names of them, so he can come here and look them up, I just know it. He knows them already, but I know him, he's going to grab the ABCs and stash them and check them out until he's happy. I was happy though, you would have been happy. Sounded spiffy to me.
So no, once again, the tune section is great. He and I have used it for several years now and passed it on, along with doing it the proper way, with the stress on the latter, for the same amount of time.
Like the Rev said, settings are key. So many times what you see doesn't match what you hear.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
The big problem with making something idiot proof is that Nature will alway develop a better idiot.Perhaps it would be to much to ask if members would record a short .mp3 or .wav of the tunes and link in the data base so that other could learn by ear. Even learning by ear off a machine (record, CD and so forth) is less than ideal but if there were a half dozen examples, it would help a lot. I am not sure one could devise a test that would separate those who have learned a tune aurally from those who have learned a tune visually. It seems that once one learns a tune, one makes it one's own. My vote is to keep the database, and enlist others to develop better tools for searching.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by toumi
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
The idea of judging a tune by how many times it's been added to a tunebook is very coarse. I'd reckon lots of people here look up tunes to check a few notes, look up a recording or a setting or comments and that's that - they don't be adding them to their tunebooks..
So, you'd need to classify by the number of times a tune is accessed - then you'd have a problem with webtrawlers I suppose.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Judging a tune by how many times it's been added might be useful for finding new tunes but you're right, twh, it'd be a self-selected sample and therefore tricky to use for research... I've seen profiles of people who know hundreds of tunes but only have one or two in their tunebook, usually obscure.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by fliedermaus
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
Without the database, thesession.org would be useless.
Banning some of the ego-maniacs that inhabit this board would improve things a bit.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Has the Tune Section become too overblown to be useful?
If banning some of the ego-maniacs would help, does this mean I should leave and cancel my membership in The Session?
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by fauxcelt