I’ve been noticing that recently my bowing (when playing the fiddle) has become quite regular, especially when playing jigs, so that I pretty much just change bow direction on the beat and slur three notes together the whole time. If I notice this while playing I’ll normally slur more notes together to get a bit of variation into it rather than use separate bows.
Is this an OK way to go about bowing? Or do you think that I won’t be getting the most out of the tune this way? Are there any particular patterns which really sound good?
Any advice appreciated and I’ll be glad to hear your bowing secrets
I think that if you are looking for any kind of pattern in your bowing then you won’t be getting the most out of the tunes. Let each individual tune dictate the bowing rather than one pattern fits all jigs type of thing. Listen to where there is punctuation in the melody.
Why are you playing? If it's for your own pleasure (the best reason I always think) or for a session, then it doesn't matter twopence; but if your playing for dancers, you've got the job of lifting the blighters feet up at the right time, and your bowing pattern can make quite a difference to the rhythm of their dear little feet.
Remember you have to be careful with your bowing patterns because that can really change the sound of the tune. For example if you want the tune to sound sweet or sad slur each measure together or more depending on the rhythm, if you want to make it sound playful separate the first two notes and slur the rest in the measure. My favorite pattern for when I play a lot of eight notes together is slur two separate two, because it gives is a really fun dance feel and it’s not as tiring.
I just heard Kevin Burke state, when someone asked about his bowing patterns, that he doesn't have any, but if he catches himself doing too much of the same thing over and over, he quickly changes what he is doing.
How long does it take to develope the skill to that enables you to effortlessly change the way you bow a tune?
At the moment when i learn a new tune, by the time i become confident with it, the way i bow it will have become ingrained and i find it difficult to change. Whats the best way to deal with this? I find it especially with irish stuff as it is very rhythmic. when i play less obviously rhythmic music i can change the way i bow much more easily.
Deal with it right from the start of learning a tune. I'd say deal with it right from the start of learning, but it's a bit late for that. You've got some unlearning to do.
The bow only does two things--it goes down, it goes up. Yes, you can slur notes, in all sorts of combinations. How you do that is up to how you hear the tune--where the emphasis falls. And just like you speak, you will vary where that emphasis falls depending on your intent.
Is THAT the dog that bit you?
Is that the DOG that bit you?
Is that the dog that BIT you?
Meaning changes slightly depending on where you put the beat. Same thing with music. And since music doesn't really "mean" anything, you're fairly free to shift that beat around--strong beats, weak beats.
So shape your bowing to play with the emphasis. Let the melody tell you which notes want to be emphasized. Eventually, you want to be able to accent a note on either the up bow or down bow, as a single stroke, or in the midst of a slur. Work toward that.
In short, certain bowing patterns do come into play, but they are just small stretches of the white water that is the tune.
I've been told never to slur three notes in a jig in a 3-3 per measure pattern. At my last lesson I was also told not to slur the 1-2 notes in the measure because it gives the feel of a waltz rather than a jig. Slurring 6-1 across the bar, however, is good, it gives a nice lilt. Plus what Will and llig said...
and upom a quick re-read, Will said that he learned his "pattern work" from Kevin Burke (paraphrasing a bit)...who just told us that he doesn't use a "pattern"...but he was saying that there is no strict pattern in emphasizing <rhythm>...hmmm..maybe he doesn't know what he does..it just sounds ok to him : )
I've been told never to slur three notes in a jig in a 3-3 per measure pattern. At my last lesson I was also told not to slur the 1-2 notes in the measure because it gives the feel of a waltz rather than a jig. Slurring 6-1 across the bar, however, is good, it gives a nice lilt. Plus what Will and llig said...
who is giving you these lessons?never,why not ,if youlike the sound.
I was taught to use separate bows for each note as a basic starting point, and to add slurs from there. One things that has helped me is to listen very carefully to recordings to hear how great players use slurring to shape the phrase and give the tune lift, like slurring into a down beat, for example.
For bowing jigs in Irish music (I assume you are talking about Irish music, though you didn't specify), I suggest two rules:
1) Try to slur INTO/OVER the beat, rather than starting slurs on the beat.
2) Vary it up. If you're falling into a pattern, change it.
I have a near-pathological aversion to the sound of fiddlers that regularly play three-up, three-down (starting on the beat) for jigs. It drives me batty. Jigs that (IMHO) should sound light, swingy, and lifty instead sound leadfooted and clunky. When I catch my own fiddle students doing this bowing, or the even heavier "DUU DUU DUU DUU", I almost always ask them to change it.
Of course, most of you are not my students, so you are welcome to take or leave my advice as you choose...
If you need suggestions for other, better, patterns to try (in order to get away from the habit-forming "DDD UUU"), you might try these instead:
DUD DUD UDU UDU... (slurring the middle two notes of each bar)
UDD DUU UDD DUU... (slurring three notes per bow, FINISHING through the beat)
This does contradict what most violin students learn in their classical lessons: that slurs should generally start on the downbeat (mainly with a downbow, where possible). Perhaps this is why there are so many people that instinctively fall into "DDD UUU" or "DUU DUU" bowing patterns in their first few years of playing Irish traditional music. This is also probably why I have such a strong reaction to it.
"who is giving you these lessons?never,why not ,if youlike the sound."
My teacher, who is Irish. He also says it all depends on the tune and even contradicts himself sometimes, but I have to say, I've seen some people playing jigs slurring 3-3 per measure, and I have to agree, I don't think it sounds right at all.
Liking the sound and having it sound like a jig is supposed to sound are often two different things, and I've been guilty of mistaking them for the same thing myself. I find the best way to figure out bowings is to find a good fiddle recording and listen for bow changes. It can be painstaking work, but it helps quite a lot.
Kennedy,your teachers nationality is irrelevant.
.juliaclifford uses 3 3 bowing in art okeefes,in 7 different bars.
MartinMulvihill uses it in one bar[the burnt old man]
PaddyCronin uses it in 4 bars in the Kilkenny jig
Padyy Canny uses it in one bar in Coppers andBrass
JuliaClifford uses it in 2 bars in John o Mahonys.
your teacher is clearly not au fait with Munster fiddlers,and is incorrect.
All the regional styles of Irish fiddle use a fair amount of single bow strokes for each note. The most common slur is from the preceding note onto a strong beat. This can be done on either a down bow or up bow. In fact, it's important to be able to get the sound you want no matter which way your bow is going or where you are on the hair (tip to frog). But if you slur onto every strong beat, it will get predictable and stale in a hurry. So you'll want to mix it up.
The primary rule of thumb in playing Irish music is: "do it this way, except when you don't."
1. Nationality is quite relevant, especially if you've grown up hearing and playing a certain kind of music, you're naturally going to end up with an instinctive feel for how it should be played. This is kind of a no-brainer, I'd say.
2. The "no 3-3 slurring in jigs" bit is a *rule of thumb*, not meant to be followed fanatically, but *in general*.
3. I haven't heard the examples you give, but will research that tonight---it would be interesting to hear---thanks for the suggestions...
I occasionally--but rarely--bow the three 8th notes in a jig in one bow, but it never fails to sound new agey to me. It's too smooth, and tends to lengthen the middle 1/8 note, which more typically is clipped very short in an Irish jig.
In fact, when a friend of mine slurred the first three notes of the Bank of Turf |ABA...| in a workshop with Brian Conway, he immediately snapped at her: "No! Don't ever do that! It's weak and robs the phrase of lift."
Dick Miles, I see you play concertina. How much fiddle have you played?
14 years.
this is the third post that hasnt reached its destination.
PaulMcnevin uses it in out on the ocean,page 45,of his tutor bar 28.
paddyJones[pupilof OKEEFES]uses it 4 times,in leg of the duck,and4 times in box the monkey.areallthese peoplewrong to have used it on occasions..
none of them are new age players.
well if nationality is relevant,
all the people Ihave mentioned are Irish,and a large proportion from munster.
they alll clearly thought it acceptable to use3 3,some more than others,they all mixed it with other patterns pairs ,single notes ,and others.
just because one person BrianConway has an opinion,it doesnt dismiss all theplayers I have mentioned.
variety, including occasional use of 3 3,was something they all did,players like paddy jones and Julia clifford,often ornamented ,with the left hand the first note of the bar,in a groupof 3 3.
Llig: "Let each individual tune dictate the bowing rather than one pattern fits all jigs type of thing. Listen to where there is punctuation in the melody."
Will: "The bow only does two things--it goes down, it goes up. Yes, you can slur notes, in all sorts of combinations. How you do that is up to how you hear the tune--where the emphasis falls. And just like you speak, you will vary where that emphasis falls depending on your intent.
Is THAT the dog that bit you?
Is that the DOG that bit you?
Is that the dog that BIT you?"
sunnybear: "I just heard Kevin Burke state, when someone asked about his bowing patterns, that he doesn't have any, but if he catches himself doing too much of the same thing over and over, he quickly changes what he is doing."
This thread was so good I had to do a little highlight post.
I would hardly consider 4 bars of a single tune a "pattern", and of course Julia Clifford, Paddy Cronin, and all those guys are perfectly welcome to bow anything any way they want with their bow, and all of them did much more mixing up of bowings than repeated patterns. Clearly, if you mix things up enough, you'll end up with a 3-3 somewhere (even in several places), and it will even sound good.
Clearly, nobody is trying to dismiss Julia Clifford (especially not for doing a 3-3 bowing in a mere 11 bars of one single tune).
However, I'd hazard a guess that sloth is neither Julia Clifford (RIP) nor Paddy Cronin in disguise, and the fact remains that a good number of novice fiddle players can be found bowing 3-3, which (I agree with Brian Conway) does often rob a jig of its lift if you aren't making up for it otherwise. So I'll stick by the suggestion to avoid 3-3 as a matter of principle, and encourage people to go ahead and break that rule when they honestly feel it sounds better to do so. My guess is that they won't likely do it for more than a few bars in any given tune.
And if they do? It's not really our business to tell them what we think of their bowing... Unless they ask... Which sloth did.
Every one of the players dickens cites also does a lot of single bows, slurring onto strong beats, etc. And each of those players knows how to give a jig lift, which they can do with almost any combination of bowings. Sloth is asking from a point of less experience, and steering him away from slurring groups of 3 in jigs is a good place to start for getting his jigs to sound good.
Eventually, a good fiddler can create lift no matter what his or her bow is doing. But you have to have the lift first, then let it come out regardless of up, down, or slurring.
but never is the wrong description,
occasionally is better advice.
alternatively beginners should get a good tutor,with marked bowing.Cranitch or Mcnevin are both good
.Cranitch uses it just once,bar 11 of the hags purse,with two group of three, seperated by double cut.
when two groups of three are used,sometimes the player uses a cut or similiar ornamentation .
never is too rigid and not accurate.
the original poster did not specify double jigs.,although we have all asssumed this
Single jigs and slipjigs are different,
and from transcriptions ,I have from varying tutors,3 3,seems less occasional.
Geoff Bowen,FolkFiddle page 33, slip jig,bar 6 bar 10.
DavidLyth[bowing styles in Irish fiddle playing vol3] ,page 119 single jig,bars 9, 10
page120[JohnKelly,bar 1
page121[JohnKelly]slipjig,bars3 ,4, 7.9 10. 11. 15.
Jake, the point some of us are trying to make here is that you DON'T want to map out the bowing for a whole tune (or even part of a tune) and then stick to it. That just won't sound right. And it will sound even worse if you play the tune again with the exact same bowing. Don't do that!
For the Banks of Lough Gowna as you've given it, there's nothing wrong with playing it all single bows, and then changing the timing of those bow strokes throughout the tune to emphasize the notes you hear as important ones. Ask yourself, "Where are the strong beats?" "Which melody notes are the 'most important' ones?" "How can I emphasize certain notes--more volume, a sharper attack, stretch them out time wise, etc.?" Try doing all of this with single bows and then see where it takes you.
For something different, start with the first bar: BcB BAF and play it DUD UDU. Now you can either start the second bar with another down bow, or slur across to the next F and use a cut with your left ring finger to separate the two Fs. Then down bow on E, up on F, down on D, up on A, down on A and slur into the next B.
That's one option for slurring onto the downbeats. But ***I would not play it that way twice in a row.***
For example, another option might be to play the first two bars as: |BcB (all on one bow, as dicken persists in championing, but with the c as a short cut note between the Bs) BAF|~F3 DFA| rolling the F on one bow.
Or |~B3 BAF|FD/E/F DFA| with a roll and a bowed triplet.
Look for variety, use both hands, and let the bow do what it has to to get the sound in your mind's ear out of your fiddle.
I wasn't really asking for slurs to be mapped out completely, just little ideas like you suggested. I've been playing it mainly like you suggested with BcB all in one bow, but with the c just as a little cut.
I think the main problem is that i've been using bow pressure and speed too much to add emphasis and have been neglecting the use of bow direction.
Jake, the reason why BcB works all on one bow is because you could as easily just play one long B3 note on one bow: |B3 BAF|FEF....
Adding the c as a blip (the middle note of a jig trio of notes is usually shorter than the 1st and 3rd notes) can be thought of as just a way to articulate the B.
But that's different than thinking of slurring BcB evenly on one bow stroke (even though the physical movement of the bow is the same). It seems like you understand that (though I'm not sure Dick Miles does).
Just to get into the "swing" of things, try this: Start on the open A string with a down bow and slur onto the first B. Then single bow the rest of the bar--up on c, down on B, then up-down-up on the BAF bit. That lead-in slur, swelling a bit onto the B, will create a sense of lift, even if you single bow the rest of the phrase. Get used to feeling and hearing that, and you'll start automatically slurring onto other strong beats throughout the tune.
Also, instead of thinking so much about bow pressure and speed, focus instead on how you start and finish each bow stroke. Violinists think of this as the "attack." Experiment with the whole range of soft and smooth to gritty and explosive. Mix and match--soft, smooth start to a loud, popping finish (even coming off the string). And vice versa. And everything in between. These are great tools for bringing a note forward, making it sound like the most important sound at the moment in the world. The more control you get over this, the more your bow will feel like part of your hand, and the more subtle you can be in making each note come alive.
here is an exercise I find useful
take the first three notes of the g major scale. g a b.
try bowing them d uu,ddu.udd.uud,then dud [slur 3 u u u]. or try slurring the first three and then three seperate.and also do six seperate.
the advantage of using these three notes is that youare having to cross strings.
starting on an up is good practice ,so that you can feel comfortable ,starting a phrase, on either an up or a down.
then try f#ga [onyour d string]using your 4th finger,then again without your 4th finger.
then try all these patterns,with different notes of the major scale,or dorian scale[ flat 3 flat 7] or mixolydian[flat7]
I would also practice slurring 33,even though it is only used occasionally in jigs,
it will be more useful when youcome to play slides,single jigs, slip jigs where it is used ,a little more often.Dick Miles
But that's different than thinking of slurring BcB evenly on one bow stroke (even though the physical movement of the bow is the same). It seems like you understand that (though I'm not sure Dick Miles does).
I do unsterstand this, what makes you think I dont?
I have been playing irish music for many years.
I find your remark offensive and patronising,a statement was made that was inaccuarate[never use 33 bowing]
I gave examples of noted players who have used it occasionally.
I agree it is not good to use it all the time, that applies to any bowing pattern.
please dont cast aspersions upon my playing ability.
the transcriptions I quoted were from recognised traditional players/tutors not myself.
Dick, many of the examples you cited were not of three 1/8th notes slurred on a single bow--they were a single bow covering the length of a dotted quarter note with a cut in the midst. That's a far different thing from slurring three 1/8 notes.
You went overboard in trying to defend slurring three notes in a jig. Yes, it can be done. But it's among the least helpful pieces of advice you could give anyone just learning how to play Irish fiddle.
The little bowing exercise you gave above also makes little sense for learning how to bow Irish jigs.
I think that I'll just go to our session tonight and watch and listen to someone that has more experience than myself...
Interesting, I've been wondering about bowing patterns on jigs, too. As I come from an American old-time tradition, I really need to rethink my bowing patterns for ITM.
wyogal, that really is a great way to understand bowing--listen and watch someone who's fiddle playing you admire and figure out what they do. it helps, of course, if they can take you aside and give you tips and advice. But it's quite possible to pick up plenty just from listening and watching.
But you can also learn a lot just by listening to your own playing and experimenting with different ways to get the timing, phrasing, and lift firing on all cylinders. Keep it simple--no need to over complicate jig bowing by slurring all over the place. Often, just slurring from the previous note onto the down beat (first note of a bar) is plenty, and works on either a down or up bow. Then use single bows. Very little slurring is needed to give most jigs a life of their own. (That said, I don't much care for it when Martin Hayes single bows almost every note in a tune--too precious for my tastes.)
purchase the following tutors
Matt Cranitch,PaulMcnevin,David Lyth ,or Geoff Bowens ,all with detailed bowing.
these 4 are better qualified, than people on this forum
Paul Mcnevin,in the first sixteen bars of out on the ocean page45,uses two bars, slurred 3 slurred3,[with no cuts]that is 12 .5 per cent .not never.
,he also uses many other combinations of seperates and slurs,as do all the others I have mentioned.
Dick, many of the examples you cited were not of three 1/8th notes slurred on a single bow--they were a single bow covering the length of a dotted quarter note with a cut in the midst. That's a far different thing from slurring three 1/8 notes
not so,
go and check it out,I have the manuscripts in front of me.
I am talking about slurring two groups of three quavers.
Dick, your notion that you have "the manuscripts" in front of you is laughable and perhaps goes a long way to explaining why your playing sounds the way it does (I've heard the clips on your web site). And you'd be surprised at the top-notch "qualifications," talents, abilities, teaching credentials, etc. of some of the people on this forum.
Jake, do yourself a favor. Don't learn to play from books. For a start, David Lyth's bowing transcriptions are often flat out wrong. And Matt Cranitch and the others tend to offer their own personal (i.e., idiosyncratic) approach to bowing. Matt's, for instance, is influenced by his classical training. Plus, unless you listen closely to how they sound, the bowing notation won't really give you what you're after.
In the end, it's better to simply listen to players whose bowing you admire and aspire to (whether it's Matt Cranitch or Paddy Canny or someone else), then try to recreate their sound. It is possible to hear bow direction changes and slurs if you listen really closely, in person or from recordings. Or you can just listen to the timing, phrasing, lift, pulse, etc., and experiment until you start making the same sounds on your fiddle. In this music, everyone eventually works out their own approach to bowing, which is why you typically see brilliant fiddlers playing a tune together with great life and lift, yet bows often going in opposite directions, long strokes next to short strokes, etc.
There are no short cuts. Listen a lot, carefully. Play a lot, attentively. Listen and play some more. Try things forward, backward, inside out and upside down. See what works--for you.
no.
I have listened to alot of irish music,
transcriptions of bowings can be helpful to a beginner,particuarly the calibre of players such as Julia Clifford,PaddyJones, Paddy ,Cronin, MattCranitch,Paul Mcnevin,who all occasionally use 3.3slurs.
the exercise I suggested is useful, Because it teaches control of the bow,sometning that is useful for all types of music.
you may not like my playing, but plenty of people do,including players who I respect.
my website,nasonly one example of an irish tune,a slow air.
My concertina playing which you appear not to like., is based upon listening .,even if I learn a tune from manuscript,I will always listen to other recorded versions.
I have disagreed with you upon a relatively minor point whether 33 slurring is used occassionally or never,the examples I gave were from noted players,
if youthink you disagree with them,[Cranitch ,PaddyJones, Paul Mcnevin],
write your own tutor.
here are two comments feom Comhaltas adjudicators,on my playing of jigs
Edel Fox:nice pace lovely choice of tune.nice use of ornamentation.lovely playing on an English concertina.
Patricia Higgins.nice choiceof tune ,well played,good steady tempo throughout.
I valueThe opinion of EdelFox,and Patricia Higgins.
Jaysus, Dick, not everyone here self-promotes the way you do or chews a "minor point" to death like this. It wasn't even me who said "never" slur three.
If you only ever listen to the opinion of people who agree with you, you'll stymie yourself.
Its important for beginners to get the right advice,even minor detail [the difference between never and occasionally is important].
I do listen to constructive criticism,from musicians I respect.
I respect EdelFox and Patricia Higgins,AND Edel Fox did have some minor criticism of my reel playing,which I now have worked on.
I am not self promoting,just trying to balance your destructive criticism of my playing.
e.g .Dick, your notion that you have "the manuscripts" in front of you is laughable and perhaps goes a long way to explaining why your playing sounds the way it does (I've heard the clips on your web site).
that remark was unnecessary ,inflammatory,and inaccurate because there is only a slowair on my website, plus songs.
Dick, I'm sorry, but bowing isn't something you learn from ink on paper.
You've completely missed the whole point of Jake's first post. Telling him it's okay to slur three notes isn't going to help him improve--he's already doing those slurs, most of the time. That's what's ***wrong*** with his approach at this stage.
A much more common and effective way to get lift into your jigs is to slur onto the downbeats. The slur comes from the last note in the previous bar onto the first note of the next. Jake's jig fiddling will leap forward if he tries this, rather than continuing to slur inside the measure.
Learning to slur "across the bar lines" and creating lift with the timing of single bows is what's really important here, not your anal retentive distinction between what other fiddlers do occasionally vs. never.
It was the custom of,PadraigOKeefe,and JamesMorrison amongst others,to put bowing instruction on tunes.
Both Paul McNevin ,and Paddy Jones [ apupil of Padraigs] do this, their bowing uses occasional 3 quaver3 quaver slurs,mixed with alot of other bowing patterns including pairs seperates,slurring over a bar line ,slurring four quavers. slurring three then threeseperates
nobody ever appears to bow3 3 slurs all the way through a tune it is only used occasionally ,however it is used.
Paul McNevin andPaddyJones both have good reputations
I have never said it is ok to slur three, three ALL THE TIME.
I said certain tutors and certain players use it occasionally .
it is perfectly true that slurring onto the downbeats as you suggest will help,but that too can be overdone . any pattern if overdone becomes mechanical AND PREDICTABLE.
getting a good tutor book [ Mcnevin, Cranitch, Bowen as well as a good teacher]is important.
sorry, but someone who says never,has a closed mind and is in my opinion not a good teacher,
there are many different ways of bowing and many different styles,and this is what makes Irish music interesting.
I tried to listen and watch at last night's session, but coming from classical, then American old-time traditions, it's hard! I will admit that I'm going to take some bowings from our gracious leader, marked in the music, to practice slowly. But, I hope to be driven by the sound, ultimately, finding the "lilt" by listening to good players.
dickens, will you please relax about the word "never"? It was a euphemism, an exaggeration, hyperbole, if you will, to describe the concept of "rule of thumb"---meaning it applies in *most* cases but not *all* cases. Get it? "Never" = "Rule of Thumb". Some of us (like myself) tend to talk in exaggerations, especially when giving emphasis to something. Like for example, "Never cross the street before looking both ways for cars"---now, you know darn well that no one ever follows that rule 100% of the time, but it's still a good rule, and the one we teach to children. Likewise, "never slur 3-3 in a jig" is a good basic rule for playing jigs, and one that is good to teach to children and beginners.
Wyogal - I have to disagree with you. Sorry. You won't get it right by following marked out bowing patterns. I've done it myself for students, because they ask. And, initially, it can at least show people that there *is* a different way. But, ultimately, as has been said many times, you have to watch and listen to good players. Especially listen.
The reason I'm saying this is that, without knowing *how it goes*, ie the *sound* of the bowing, then absolutely *any* bowing you learn will end up being no more than getting the changes of direction the same as someone else. And that is a long way from getting the bowing right.
Martin Hayes said (in a workshop last summer) that the more you practice something the same way each time, the more you drill it into your brain and the harder it is to change later (he said it much more eloquently) - and that it's important to think about what you're doing, and if it's not working, to do something else. I have pages and pages of written bowings from teachers that I rarely look at, but when I feel like I'm not going anywhere with my bowing, I'll sit for awhile and try to make myself play something the way its written.
And the marked out bowings are just one person's take on it, one (or maybe two) times through.
I keep coming back to hearing Kevin Burke's words--"It's simple. The bow goes up, or it goes down. You can play one or more notes on any bow stroke. Don't make it more complicated than that."
So within those parameters, it's up to each one of us to play around with all the possibilities, figure out how to create pulse, lift, life whichever way the bow is going.
***The most crucial thing is to *hear* the pulse, lift, life, etc., to have that sound in our heads. Then, gradually at first, your bow hand will find a way.***
airport, try changing your bowing without looking at the notation. Just do something different. If you always start a particular tune on a down bow, do it with an up bow and see what happens. If you single bow a bit, try slurring it and see how many different combinations of slurs you can make work. Then do the slurs with the bow going in the opposite direction.
Play a bit up by the tip, then down by the frog. Use long bows. Then try it with teensy little short bows.
This reminds me of the oft-repeated quip that the mark of a good fiddler is someone who can bow her/himself into a corner and back out again without losing the tune.
Thanks CPT - and thanks for posting that Paddy Canny link the other day. I've been getting a lot out of some of those you tube videos where you can really see what's happening with the bow. But you're right - I'm perfectly capable of making stuff up...
HA HA! What a line. That's great Will. Yup, done that, will do it again, won't be the last time.
It's always after the fact, you know? "What the...? How did my bow get there? For crying out loud, whew, hope nobody noticed that one. I think I pulled it off. No nasty looks? Check. No harm no foul."
I understand what you mean by following someone else's marked bowings, really, I do. But at the same time, it is just a tool I can use to help me. Our sessions are only twice a month, and I am striving to do this by ear. I don't want to rely on marked bowings, but as a visual, learner that has been reading music for 45 years, (egads!), it's just a tool. I PROMISE to wean myself from the page! Really! I already am learning lots by listening and watching.
(I realize there are strong opinions on this, not trying to inflame anybody, just trying to do my personal best, for me, for the fun of it)
Fair play, wyogal. If you can't let go of the page just yet, use it as much as possible ***to help you listen.*** After so many years of reading music, you're probably good at hearing the sounds right from the dots, eh?
LOL, SWFL, that sounds like my skating when playing hockey....
Airport, checking out the YouTube vids is a great way to learn, for when you don't have access to someone in person. Lots of good ideas there. Great artists always steal ideas.
Right, Will. As I explained to a student, it wasn't such a big deal for Beethoven to "hear" the music he composed while deaf. I do that all the time. It's like reading text, knowing how it will sound out loud. I learned to read music at the same time I learned to read words.
But, I'm getting lots better at getting away from the page.
speaking of stealing ideas... Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh says he uses polka bowing (with the pulse on the second beat) in jigs and reels - haven't had much success with the jigs yet, but its fun to try...
Good on you, wyogal. Use that skill to listen more closely to your role models. I'm insanely visual too, and sometimes my brain flashes a picture of abc notation or sheet music that shows what I'm hearing. I've learned to dim that, so I can just listen, but once in a while I'll use it to better understand what I'm hearing. Our brains work in wonderous ways....
That said, things are easier when your brain just taps straight into the sound, without the multi-media show. I pick up tunes much more readily if I close my eyes and just listen.
Yeah, some tunes lend themselves to emphasizing the second downbeat more than the first. More often, it's nice to mix and match as you run through a tune, rather than just always pounding away on the first downbeat.
the important thing about jigs, especially if you are playing for dancing ,is getting a strong emphasis on beat one,and a slightly stronger emphasis on beat 4,where one taps ones foot.
normally, stronger emphasis is acheived by a down bow,although some fiddlers manage to produce a strong emphasis with an up bow.
by bowing ,slurring groups of three throughout a jig,you will find it difficult to acheive this emphasis.
on the other hand, you dont want to play down strokes on every first and fourth beats,as this gets predictable.
slurring a pattern of three followed by three seperates,and three seperates followed by a slur of three,seems reasonably common along with slurring in pairs,the occasional slur of four,slurring two notes[a lead note onto a strong beat].and occasionally slur three/ three.
you would in my opinion,be well advised to buy both Cranitch and Mcnevin,their styles are different,but their advice is sound and easy to follow.they are both highly respected fiddlers.
in the end it is a matter of individual taste.
personally I find Caomain o Raillaighs, bowing, not very good for dancing,he is of course very accomplished.
I would rather listen to Julia Clifford , Paddy Canny,OR bobby Casey.
Padraig Okeefe,JamesMorrison GeorgeWhelan all taught their pupils a system of bowing ,indeed this is the way Parick Kelly was taught.,although he later modified his bowing when playing with others.
learning bowing in this fashion is fine ,providing it is only a stepping stone to developing your own style.
thatr was why I suggested you bought two different tutors,so you get two different takes on it.Dick Miles
Bowing patterns
Bowing patterns
Hello,
I’ve been noticing that recently my bowing (when playing the fiddle) has become quite regular, especially when playing jigs, so that I pretty much just change bow direction on the beat and slur three notes together the whole time. If I notice this while playing I’ll normally slur more notes together to get a bit of variation into it rather than use separate bows.
Is this an OK way to go about bowing? Or do you think that I won’t be getting the most out of the tune this way? Are there any particular patterns which really sound good?
Any advice appreciated and I’ll be glad to hear your bowing secrets
Cheers
Jake
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
I quite like bowing twice in three notes in a jig...for example bow down for one quaver then an up bow for the next two quavers.
Although it doesn't sound that good if you do it ALL the time...just something to vary up the bowing a bit!
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: Bowing patterns
I think that if you are looking for any kind of pattern in your bowing then you won’t be getting the most out of the tunes. Let each individual tune dictate the bowing rather than one pattern fits all jigs type of thing. Listen to where there is punctuation in the melody.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bowing patterns
Why are you playing? If it's for your own pleasure (the best reason I always think) or for a session, then it doesn't matter twopence; but if your playing for dancers, you've got the job of lifting the blighters feet up at the right time, and your bowing pattern can make quite a difference to the rhythm of their dear little feet.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Ebor_fiddler
Re: Bowing patterns
Remember you have to be careful with your bowing patterns because that can really change the sound of the tune. For example if you want the tune to sound sweet or sad slur each measure together or more depending on the rhythm, if you want to make it sound playful separate the first two notes and slur the rest in the measure. My favorite pattern for when I play a lot of eight notes together is slur two separate two, because it gives is a really fun dance feel and it’s not as tiring.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by muellehn
Re: Bowing patterns
D.J.F. , I'm just playing for fun, not for dancers, i just don't want my bowing to get monotonous. Maybe one day I'll play for dancers.
thanks for your help everyone
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
bowing patterns?
I just heard Kevin Burke state, when someone asked about his bowing patterns, that he doesn't have any, but if he catches himself doing too much of the same thing over and over, he quickly changes what he is doing.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Bowing patterns
Oops, that was meant to be to Ebor fiddler
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
Fairly lengthy thread here (mainly from a US perspective.)
http://www.fiddlehangout.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2509&SearchTerms=jig,bowing
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Bowing patterns
How long does it take to develope the skill to that enables you to effortlessly change the way you bow a tune?
At the moment when i learn a new tune, by the time i become confident with it, the way i bow it will have become ingrained and i find it difficult to change. Whats the best way to deal with this? I find it especially with irish stuff as it is very rhythmic. when i play less obviously rhythmic music i can change the way i bow much more easily.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
Deal with it right from the start of learning a tune. I'd say deal with it right from the start of learning, but it's a bit late for that. You've got some unlearning to do.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Bowing patterns
I've only been playing for 7 or 8 months, so not too much unlearning to do.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
The bow only does two things--it goes down, it goes up. Yes, you can slur notes, in all sorts of combinations. How you do that is up to how you hear the tune--where the emphasis falls. And just like you speak, you will vary where that emphasis falls depending on your intent.
Is THAT the dog that bit you?
Is that the DOG that bit you?
Is that the dog that BIT you?
Meaning changes slightly depending on where you put the beat. Same thing with music. And since music doesn't really "mean" anything, you're fairly free to shift that beat around--strong beats, weak beats.
So shape your bowing to play with the emphasis. Let the melody tell you which notes want to be emphasized. Eventually, you want to be able to accent a note on either the up bow or down bow, as a single stroke, or in the midst of a slur. Work toward that.
In short, certain bowing patterns do come into play, but they are just small stretches of the white water that is the tune.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
I've been told never to slur three notes in a jig in a 3-3 per measure pattern. At my last lesson I was also told not to slur the 1-2 notes in the measure because it gives the feel of a waltz rather than a jig. Slurring 6-1 across the bar, however, is good, it gives a nice lilt. Plus what Will and llig said...
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Bowing patterns
Will once posted a very nice thread about bowing patterns...here...
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/5579/comments#comment118257
but I think that it is just a starting point to realize how many options there really are...
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Bowing patterns
and upom a quick re-read, Will said that he learned his "pattern work" from Kevin Burke (paraphrasing a bit)...who just told us that he doesn't use a "pattern"...but he was saying that there is no strict pattern in emphasizing <rhythm>...hmmm..maybe he doesn't know what he does..it just sounds ok to him : )
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Bowing patterns
I've been told never to slur three notes in a jig in a 3-3 per measure pattern. At my last lesson I was also told not to slur the 1-2 notes in the measure because it gives the feel of a waltz rather than a jig. Slurring 6-1 across the bar, however, is good, it gives a nice lilt. Plus what Will and llig said...
who is giving you these lessons?never,why not ,if youlike the sound.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
I was taught to use separate bows for each note as a basic starting point, and to add slurs from there. One things that has helped me is to listen very carefully to recordings to hear how great players use slurring to shape the phrase and give the tune lift, like slurring into a down beat, for example.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by jasonb
Re: Bowing patterns
For bowing jigs in Irish music (I assume you are talking about Irish music, though you didn't specify), I suggest two rules:
1) Try to slur INTO/OVER the beat, rather than starting slurs on the beat.
2) Vary it up. If you're falling into a pattern, change it.
I have a near-pathological aversion to the sound of fiddlers that regularly play three-up, three-down (starting on the beat) for jigs. It drives me batty. Jigs that (IMHO) should sound light, swingy, and lifty instead sound leadfooted and clunky. When I catch my own fiddle students doing this bowing, or the even heavier "DUU DUU DUU DUU", I almost always ask them to change it.
Of course, most of you are not my students, so you are welcome to take or leave my advice as you choose...
If you need suggestions for other, better, patterns to try (in order to get away from the habit-forming "DDD UUU"), you might try these instead:
DUD DUD UDU UDU... (slurring the middle two notes of each bar)
UDD DUU UDD DUU... (slurring three notes per bow, FINISHING through the beat)
This does contradict what most violin students learn in their classical lessons: that slurs should generally start on the downbeat (mainly with a downbow, where possible). Perhaps this is why there are so many people that instinctively fall into "DDD UUU" or "DUU DUU" bowing patterns in their first few years of playing Irish traditional music. This is also probably why I have such a strong reaction to it.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Bowing patterns
"who is giving you these lessons?never,why not ,if youlike the sound."
My teacher, who is Irish. He also says it all depends on the tune and even contradicts himself sometimes, but I have to say, I've seen some people playing jigs slurring 3-3 per measure, and I have to agree, I don't think it sounds right at all.
Liking the sound and having it sound like a jig is supposed to sound are often two different things, and I've been guilty of mistaking them for the same thing myself. I find the best way to figure out bowings is to find a good fiddle recording and listen for bow changes. It can be painstaking work, but it helps quite a lot.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Bowing patterns
Any Donegal style fiddlers care to reply?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Sean MacOda Criobhan
Re: Bowing patterns
Whats Donegal bowing like?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
Donegal bowing, as a general broad statement is sometimes a single stroke for each note.
http://www.standingstones.com/donegalf.html
For some info.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Sean MacOda Criobhan
Re: Bowing patterns
Kennedy,your teachers nationality is irrelevant.
.juliaclifford uses 3 3 bowing in art okeefes,in 7 different bars.
MartinMulvihill uses it in one bar[the burnt old man]
PaddyCronin uses it in 4 bars in the Kilkenny jig
Padyy Canny uses it in one bar in Coppers andBrass
JuliaClifford uses it in 2 bars in John o Mahonys.
your teacher is clearly not au fait with Munster fiddlers,and is incorrect.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
correction JuliaClifford uses it in 11 bars in Art oKeefes jig.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
All the regional styles of Irish fiddle use a fair amount of single bow strokes for each note. The most common slur is from the preceding note onto a strong beat. This can be done on either a down bow or up bow. In fact, it's important to be able to get the sound you want no matter which way your bow is going or where you are on the hair (tip to frog). But if you slur onto every strong beat, it will get predictable and stale in a hurry. So you'll want to mix it up.
The primary rule of thumb in playing Irish music is: "do it this way, except when you don't."
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
hmm, several different issues here...
1. Nationality is quite relevant, especially if you've grown up hearing and playing a certain kind of music, you're naturally going to end up with an instinctive feel for how it should be played. This is kind of a no-brainer, I'd say.
2. The "no 3-3 slurring in jigs" bit is a *rule of thumb*, not meant to be followed fanatically, but *in general*.
3. I haven't heard the examples you give, but will research that tonight---it would be interesting to hear---thanks for the suggestions...
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Bowing patterns
I occasionally--but rarely--bow the three 8th notes in a jig in one bow, but it never fails to sound new agey to me. It's too smooth, and tends to lengthen the middle 1/8 note, which more typically is clipped very short in an Irish jig.
In fact, when a friend of mine slurred the first three notes of the Bank of Turf |ABA...| in a workshop with Brian Conway, he immediately snapped at her: "No! Don't ever do that! It's weak and robs the phrase of lift."
Dick Miles, I see you play concertina. How much fiddle have you played?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
14 years.
this is the third post that hasnt reached its destination.
PaulMcnevin uses it in out on the ocean,page 45,of his tutor bar 28.
paddyJones[pupilof OKEEFES]uses it 4 times,in leg of the duck,and4 times in box the monkey.areallthese peoplewrong to have used it on occasions..
none of them are new age players.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
well if nationality is relevant,
all the people Ihave mentioned are Irish,and a large proportion from munster.
they alll clearly thought it acceptable to use3 3,some more than others,they all mixed it with other patterns pairs ,single notes ,and others.
just because one person BrianConway has an opinion,it doesnt dismiss all theplayers I have mentioned.
variety, including occasional use of 3 3,was something they all did,players like paddy jones and Julia clifford,often ornamented ,with the left hand the first note of the bar,in a groupof 3 3.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
Llig: "Let each individual tune dictate the bowing rather than one pattern fits all jigs type of thing. Listen to where there is punctuation in the melody."
Will: "The bow only does two things--it goes down, it goes up. Yes, you can slur notes, in all sorts of combinations. How you do that is up to how you hear the tune--where the emphasis falls. And just like you speak, you will vary where that emphasis falls depending on your intent.
Is THAT the dog that bit you?
Is that the DOG that bit you?
Is that the dog that BIT you?"
sunnybear: "I just heard Kevin Burke state, when someone asked about his bowing patterns, that he doesn't have any, but if he catches himself doing too much of the same thing over and over, he quickly changes what he is doing."
This thread was so good I had to do a little highlight post.
...and the answer is: What they said up there.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing patterns
I would hardly consider 4 bars of a single tune a "pattern", and of course Julia Clifford, Paddy Cronin, and all those guys are perfectly welcome to bow anything any way they want with their bow, and all of them did much more mixing up of bowings than repeated patterns. Clearly, if you mix things up enough, you'll end up with a 3-3 somewhere (even in several places), and it will even sound good.
Clearly, nobody is trying to dismiss Julia Clifford (especially not for doing a 3-3 bowing in a mere 11 bars of one single tune).
However, I'd hazard a guess that sloth is neither Julia Clifford (RIP) nor Paddy Cronin in disguise, and the fact remains that a good number of novice fiddle players can be found bowing 3-3, which (I agree with Brian Conway) does often rob a jig of its lift if you aren't making up for it otherwise. So I'll stick by the suggestion to avoid 3-3 as a matter of principle, and encourage people to go ahead and break that rule when they honestly feel it sounds better to do so. My guess is that they won't likely do it for more than a few bars in any given tune.
And if they do? It's not really our business to tell them what we think of their bowing... Unless they ask... Which sloth did.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Georgi
Re: Bowing patterns
Yes, what Georgi says.
Every one of the players dickens cites also does a lot of single bows, slurring onto strong beats, etc. And each of those players knows how to give a jig lift, which they can do with almost any combination of bowings. Sloth is asking from a point of less experience, and steering him away from slurring groups of 3 in jigs is a good place to start for getting his jigs to sound good.
Eventually, a good fiddler can create lift no matter what his or her bow is doing. But you have to have the lift first, then let it come out regardless of up, down, or slurring.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
but never is the wrong description,
occasionally is better advice.
alternatively beginners should get a good tutor,with marked bowing.Cranitch or Mcnevin are both good
.Cranitch uses it just once,bar 11 of the hags purse,with two group of three, seperated by double cut.
when two groups of three are used,sometimes the player uses a cut or similiar ornamentation .
never is too rigid and not accurate.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
the original poster did not specify double jigs.,although we have all asssumed this
Single jigs and slipjigs are different,
and from transcriptions ,I have from varying tutors,3 3,seems less occasional.
Geoff Bowen,FolkFiddle page 33, slip jig,bar 6 bar 10.
DavidLyth[bowing styles in Irish fiddle playing vol3] ,page 119 single jig,bars 9, 10
page120[JohnKelly,bar 1
page121[JohnKelly]slipjig,bars3 ,4, 7.9 10. 11. 15.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
MartinHayes,bars 23, 31,Hole inTheHedgedouble jig,3 ,3,slurs.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
So could anyone suggest a way of bowing "The Banks of lough Gowna" for example? As it's this tune that i find my bowing is most rigid with.
Thanks
T: Banks Of Lough Gowna, The
M: 6/8
L: 1/8
R: jig
K: Bmin
BcB BAF|FEF DFA|BcB BAF|
d2e fed|BcB BAF|FEF DFA|
def geg|1 fdB Bdc:|2 fdB ~B3||
|:def ~a3|afb afe|dFA def|
geg fdB|def ~a3|afb afe|
def geg|1 fdB ~B3:|2 fdB Bdc||
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
Jake, the point some of us are trying to make here is that you DON'T want to map out the bowing for a whole tune (or even part of a tune) and then stick to it. That just won't sound right. And it will sound even worse if you play the tune again with the exact same bowing. Don't do that!
For the Banks of Lough Gowna as you've given it, there's nothing wrong with playing it all single bows, and then changing the timing of those bow strokes throughout the tune to emphasize the notes you hear as important ones. Ask yourself, "Where are the strong beats?" "Which melody notes are the 'most important' ones?" "How can I emphasize certain notes--more volume, a sharper attack, stretch them out time wise, etc.?" Try doing all of this with single bows and then see where it takes you.
For something different, start with the first bar: BcB BAF and play it DUD UDU. Now you can either start the second bar with another down bow, or slur across to the next F and use a cut with your left ring finger to separate the two Fs. Then down bow on E, up on F, down on D, up on A, down on A and slur into the next B.
That's one option for slurring onto the downbeats. But ***I would not play it that way twice in a row.***
For example, another option might be to play the first two bars as: |BcB (all on one bow, as dicken persists in championing, but with the c as a short cut note between the Bs) BAF|~F3 DFA| rolling the F on one bow.
Or |~B3 BAF|FD/E/F DFA| with a roll and a bowed triplet.
Look for variety, use both hands, and let the bow do what it has to to get the sound in your mind's ear out of your fiddle.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
I wasn't really asking for slurs to be mapped out completely, just little ideas like you suggested. I've been playing it mainly like you suggested with BcB all in one bow, but with the c just as a little cut.
I think the main problem is that i've been using bow pressure and speed too much to add emphasis and have been neglecting the use of bow direction.
Thanks for your advice Will.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
Jake, the reason why BcB works all on one bow is because you could as easily just play one long B3 note on one bow: |B3 BAF|FEF....
Adding the c as a blip (the middle note of a jig trio of notes is usually shorter than the 1st and 3rd notes) can be thought of as just a way to articulate the B.
But that's different than thinking of slurring BcB evenly on one bow stroke (even though the physical movement of the bow is the same). It seems like you understand that (though I'm not sure Dick Miles does).
Just to get into the "swing" of things, try this: Start on the open A string with a down bow and slur onto the first B. Then single bow the rest of the bar--up on c, down on B, then up-down-up on the BAF bit. That lead-in slur, swelling a bit onto the B, will create a sense of lift, even if you single bow the rest of the phrase. Get used to feeling and hearing that, and you'll start automatically slurring onto other strong beats throughout the tune.
Also, instead of thinking so much about bow pressure and speed, focus instead on how you start and finish each bow stroke. Violinists think of this as the "attack." Experiment with the whole range of soft and smooth to gritty and explosive. Mix and match--soft, smooth start to a loud, popping finish (even coming off the string). And vice versa. And everything in between. These are great tools for bringing a note forward, making it sound like the most important sound at the moment in the world. The more control you get over this, the more your bow will feel like part of your hand, and the more subtle you can be in making each note come alive.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
Im taking everything you say on board, Cheers
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
here is an exercise I find useful
take the first three notes of the g major scale. g a b.
try bowing them d uu,ddu.udd.uud,then dud [slur 3 u u u]. or try slurring the first three and then three seperate.and also do six seperate.
the advantage of using these three notes is that youare having to cross strings.
starting on an up is good practice ,so that you can feel comfortable ,starting a phrase, on either an up or a down.
then try f#ga [onyour d string]using your 4th finger,then again without your 4th finger.
then try all these patterns,with different notes of the major scale,or dorian scale[ flat 3 flat 7] or mixolydian[flat7]
I would also practice slurring 33,even though it is only used occasionally in jigs,
it will be more useful when youcome to play slides,single jigs, slip jigs where it is used ,a little more often.Dick Miles
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
Thanks Dick
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by sloth
Re: Bowing patterns
But that's different than thinking of slurring BcB evenly on one bow stroke (even though the physical movement of the bow is the same). It seems like you understand that (though I'm not sure Dick Miles does).
I do unsterstand this, what makes you think I dont?
I have been playing irish music for many years.
I find your remark offensive and patronising,a statement was made that was inaccuarate[never use 33 bowing]
I gave examples of noted players who have used it occasionally.
I agree it is not good to use it all the time, that applies to any bowing pattern.
please dont cast aspersions upon my playing ability.
the transcriptions I quoted were from recognised traditional players/tutors not myself.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
Dick, many of the examples you cited were not of three 1/8th notes slurred on a single bow--they were a single bow covering the length of a dotted quarter note with a cut in the midst. That's a far different thing from slurring three 1/8 notes.
You went overboard in trying to defend slurring three notes in a jig. Yes, it can be done. But it's among the least helpful pieces of advice you could give anyone just learning how to play Irish fiddle.
The little bowing exercise you gave above also makes little sense for learning how to bow Irish jigs.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
P.S. You're free to give such advice, of course. Just as myself and others here are free to alert Jake and others that we think it's wrongheaded.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
I think that I'll just go to our session tonight and watch and listen to someone that has more experience than myself...
Interesting, I've been wondering about bowing patterns on jigs, too. As I come from an American old-time tradition, I really need to rethink my bowing patterns for ITM.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Bowing patterns
wyogal, that really is a great way to understand bowing--listen and watch someone who's fiddle playing you admire and figure out what they do. it helps, of course, if they can take you aside and give you tips and advice. But it's quite possible to pick up plenty just from listening and watching.
But you can also learn a lot just by listening to your own playing and experimenting with different ways to get the timing, phrasing, and lift firing on all cylinders. Keep it simple--no need to over complicate jig bowing by slurring all over the place. Often, just slurring from the previous note onto the down beat (first note of a bar) is plenty, and works on either a down or up bow. Then use single bows. Very little slurring is needed to give most jigs a life of their own. (That said, I don't much care for it when Martin Hayes single bows almost every note in a tune--too precious for my tastes.)
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
purchase the following tutors
Matt Cranitch,PaulMcnevin,David Lyth ,or Geoff Bowens ,all with detailed bowing.
these 4 are better qualified, than people on this forum
Paul Mcnevin,in the first sixteen bars of out on the ocean page45,uses two bars, slurred 3 slurred3,[with no cuts]that is 12 .5 per cent .not never.
,he also uses many other combinations of seperates and slurs,as do all the others I have mentioned.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
Dick, many of the examples you cited were not of three 1/8th notes slurred on a single bow--they were a single bow covering the length of a dotted quarter note with a cut in the midst. That's a far different thing from slurring three 1/8 notes
not so,
go and check it out,I have the manuscripts in front of me.
I am talking about slurring two groups of three quavers.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
Dick, your notion that you have "the manuscripts" in front of you is laughable and perhaps goes a long way to explaining why your playing sounds the way it does (I've heard the clips on your web site). And you'd be surprised at the top-notch "qualifications," talents, abilities, teaching credentials, etc. of some of the people on this forum.
Jake, do yourself a favor. Don't learn to play from books. For a start, David Lyth's bowing transcriptions are often flat out wrong. And Matt Cranitch and the others tend to offer their own personal (i.e., idiosyncratic) approach to bowing. Matt's, for instance, is influenced by his classical training. Plus, unless you listen closely to how they sound, the bowing notation won't really give you what you're after.
In the end, it's better to simply listen to players whose bowing you admire and aspire to (whether it's Matt Cranitch or Paddy Canny or someone else), then try to recreate their sound. It is possible to hear bow direction changes and slurs if you listen really closely, in person or from recordings. Or you can just listen to the timing, phrasing, lift, pulse, etc., and experiment until you start making the same sounds on your fiddle. In this music, everyone eventually works out their own approach to bowing, which is why you typically see brilliant fiddlers playing a tune together with great life and lift, yet bows often going in opposite directions, long strokes next to short strokes, etc.
There are no short cuts. Listen a lot, carefully. Play a lot, attentively. Listen and play some more. Try things forward, backward, inside out and upside down. See what works--for you.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
no.
I have listened to alot of irish music,
transcriptions of bowings can be helpful to a beginner,particuarly the calibre of players such as Julia Clifford,PaddyJones, Paddy ,Cronin, MattCranitch,Paul Mcnevin,who all occasionally use 3.3slurs.
the exercise I suggested is useful, Because it teaches control of the bow,sometning that is useful for all types of music.
you may not like my playing, but plenty of people do,including players who I respect.
my website,nasonly one example of an irish tune,a slow air.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
Will,
perhaps you should put up some sound clips ,so we can hear you.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
My concertina playing which you appear not to like., is based upon listening .,even if I learn a tune from manuscript,I will always listen to other recorded versions.
I have disagreed with you upon a relatively minor point whether 33 slurring is used occassionally or never,the examples I gave were from noted players,
if youthink you disagree with them,[Cranitch ,PaddyJones, Paul Mcnevin],
write your own tutor.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
here are two comments feom Comhaltas adjudicators,on my playing of jigs
Edel Fox:nice pace lovely choice of tune.nice use of ornamentation.lovely playing on an English concertina.
Patricia Higgins.nice choiceof tune ,well played,good steady tempo throughout.
I valueThe opinion of EdelFox,and Patricia Higgins.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
Jaysus, Dick, not everyone here self-promotes the way you do or chews a "minor point" to death like this. It wasn't even me who said "never" slur three.
If you only ever listen to the opinion of people who agree with you, you'll stymie yourself.
Cheer up.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
Its important for beginners to get the right advice,even minor detail [the difference between never and occasionally is important].
I do listen to constructive criticism,from musicians I respect.
I respect EdelFox and Patricia Higgins,AND Edel Fox did have some minor criticism of my reel playing,which I now have worked on.
I am not self promoting,just trying to balance your destructive criticism of my playing.
e.g .Dick, your notion that you have "the manuscripts" in front of you is laughable and perhaps goes a long way to explaining why your playing sounds the way it does (I've heard the clips on your web site).
that remark was unnecessary ,inflammatory,and inaccurate because there is only a slowair on my website, plus songs.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
Dick, I'm sorry, but bowing isn't something you learn from ink on paper.
You've completely missed the whole point of Jake's first post. Telling him it's okay to slur three notes isn't going to help him improve--he's already doing those slurs, most of the time. That's what's ***wrong*** with his approach at this stage.
A much more common and effective way to get lift into your jigs is to slur onto the downbeats. The slur comes from the last note in the previous bar onto the first note of the next. Jake's jig fiddling will leap forward if he tries this, rather than continuing to slur inside the measure.
Learning to slur "across the bar lines" and creating lift with the timing of single bows is what's really important here, not your anal retentive distinction between what other fiddlers do occasionally vs. never.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
"Its important for beginners to get the right advice" - [exact quote, though I wanted to correct the typo really
]
Anyway, I couldn't agree more - listen to Will, Jake.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Bowing patterns
LOL, Ben, I was going to let that irony stand on its own.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
It was the custom of,PadraigOKeefe,and JamesMorrison amongst others,to put bowing instruction on tunes.
Both Paul McNevin ,and Paddy Jones [ apupil of Padraigs] do this, their bowing uses occasional 3 quaver3 quaver slurs,mixed with alot of other bowing patterns including pairs seperates,slurring over a bar line ,slurring four quavers. slurring three then threeseperates
nobody ever appears to bow3 3 slurs all the way through a tune it is only used occasionally ,however it is used.
Paul McNevin andPaddyJones both have good reputations
I have never said it is ok to slur three, three ALL THE TIME.
I said certain tutors and certain players use it occasionally .
it is perfectly true that slurring onto the downbeats as you suggest will help,but that too can be overdone . any pattern if overdone becomes mechanical AND PREDICTABLE.
getting a good tutor book [ Mcnevin, Cranitch, Bowen as well as a good teacher]is important.
sorry, but someone who says never,has a closed mind and is in my opinion not a good teacher,
there are many different ways of bowing and many different styles,and this is what makes Irish music interesting.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
I tried to listen and watch at last night's session, but coming from classical, then American old-time traditions, it's hard! I will admit that I'm going to take some bowings from our gracious leader, marked in the music, to practice slowly. But, I hope to be driven by the sound, ultimately, finding the "lilt" by listening to good players.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Bowing patterns
dickens, will you please relax about the word "never"? It was a euphemism, an exaggeration, hyperbole, if you will, to describe the concept of "rule of thumb"---meaning it applies in *most* cases but not *all* cases. Get it? "Never" = "Rule of Thumb". Some of us (like myself) tend to talk in exaggerations, especially when giving emphasis to something. Like for example, "Never cross the street before looking both ways for cars"---now, you know darn well that no one ever follows that rule 100% of the time, but it's still a good rule, and the one we teach to children. Likewise, "never slur 3-3 in a jig" is a good basic rule for playing jigs, and one that is good to teach to children and beginners.
Sigh. How thick-headed you're being about this!
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Bowing patterns
As I said miles above:
The primary rule of thumb in playing Irish music is: "do it this way, except when you don't."
And sometimes we have to let people obsess about being right because it saves them from not being anything else....
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
Wyogal - I have to disagree with you. Sorry. You won't get it right by following marked out bowing patterns. I've done it myself for students, because they ask. And, initially, it can at least show people that there *is* a different way. But, ultimately, as has been said many times, you have to watch and listen to good players. Especially listen.
The reason I'm saying this is that, without knowing *how it goes*, ie the *sound* of the bowing, then absolutely *any* bowing you learn will end up being no more than getting the changes of direction the same as someone else. And that is a long way from getting the bowing right.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Bowing patterns
Martin Hayes said (in a workshop last summer) that the more you practice something the same way each time, the more you drill it into your brain and the harder it is to change later (he said it much more eloquently) - and that it's important to think about what you're doing, and if it's not working, to do something else. I have pages and pages of written bowings from teachers that I rarely look at, but when I feel like I'm not going anywhere with my bowing, I'll sit for awhile and try to make myself play something the way its written.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by airport
Re: Bowing patterns
And the marked out bowings are just one person's take on it, one (or maybe two) times through.
I keep coming back to hearing Kevin Burke's words--"It's simple. The bow goes up, or it goes down. You can play one or more notes on any bow stroke. Don't make it more complicated than that."
So within those parameters, it's up to each one of us to play around with all the possibilities, figure out how to create pulse, lift, life whichever way the bow is going.
***The most crucial thing is to *hear* the pulse, lift, life, etc., to have that sound in our heads. Then, gradually at first, your bow hand will find a way.***
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
airport, try changing your bowing without looking at the notation. Just do something different. If you always start a particular tune on a down bow, do it with an up bow and see what happens. If you single bow a bit, try slurring it and see how many different combinations of slurs you can make work. Then do the slurs with the bow going in the opposite direction.
Play a bit up by the tip, then down by the frog. Use long bows. Then try it with teensy little short bows.
The options are all there right in your hand.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
This reminds me of the oft-repeated quip that the mark of a good fiddler is someone who can bow her/himself into a corner and back out again without losing the tune.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
Thanks CPT - and thanks for posting that Paddy Canny link the other day. I've been getting a lot out of some of those you tube videos where you can really see what's happening with the bow. But you're right - I'm perfectly capable of making stuff up...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by airport
Re: Bowing patterns
HA HA! What a line. That's great Will. Yup, done that, will do it again, won't be the last time.
It's always after the fact, you know? "What the...? How did my bow get there? For crying out loud, whew, hope nobody noticed that one. I think I pulled it off. No nasty looks? Check. No harm no foul."
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Bowing patterns
I understand what you mean by following someone else's marked bowings, really, I do. But at the same time, it is just a tool I can use to help me. Our sessions are only twice a month, and I am striving to do this by ear. I don't want to rely on marked bowings, but as a visual, learner that has been reading music for 45 years, (egads!), it's just a tool. I PROMISE to wean myself from the page! Really! I already am learning lots by listening and watching.
(I realize there are strong opinions on this, not trying to inflame anybody, just trying to do my personal best, for me, for the fun of it)
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Bowing patterns
Fair play, wyogal. If you can't let go of the page just yet, use it as much as possible ***to help you listen.*** After so many years of reading music, you're probably good at hearing the sounds right from the dots, eh?
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
LOL, SWFL, that sounds like my skating when playing hockey....
Airport, checking out the YouTube vids is a great way to learn, for when you don't have access to someone in person. Lots of good ideas there. Great artists always steal ideas.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
Right, Will. As I explained to a student, it wasn't such a big deal for Beethoven to "hear" the music he composed while deaf. I do that all the time. It's like reading text, knowing how it will sound out loud. I learned to read music at the same time I learned to read words.
But, I'm getting lots better at getting away from the page.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Bowing patterns
speaking of stealing ideas... Caoimhin O'Raghallaigh says he uses polka bowing (with the pulse on the second beat) in jigs and reels - haven't had much success with the jigs yet, but its fun to try...
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by airport
Re: Bowing patterns
Good on you, wyogal. Use that skill to listen more closely to your role models. I'm insanely visual too, and sometimes my brain flashes a picture of abc notation or sheet music that shows what I'm hearing. I've learned to dim that, so I can just listen, but once in a while I'll use it to better understand what I'm hearing. Our brains work in wonderous ways....
That said, things are easier when your brain just taps straight into the sound, without the multi-media show. I pick up tunes much more readily if I close my eyes and just listen.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
Yeah, some tunes lend themselves to emphasizing the second downbeat more than the first. More often, it's nice to mix and match as you run through a tune, rather than just always pounding away on the first downbeat.
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Bowing patterns
I hear ya...
; }
# Posted on April 10th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Bowing patterns
the important thing about jigs, especially if you are playing for dancing ,is getting a strong emphasis on beat one,and a slightly stronger emphasis on beat 4,where one taps ones foot.
normally, stronger emphasis is acheived by a down bow,although some fiddlers manage to produce a strong emphasis with an up bow.
by bowing ,slurring groups of three throughout a jig,you will find it difficult to acheive this emphasis.
on the other hand, you dont want to play down strokes on every first and fourth beats,as this gets predictable.
slurring a pattern of three followed by three seperates,and three seperates followed by a slur of three,seems reasonably common along with slurring in pairs,the occasional slur of four,slurring two notes[a lead note onto a strong beat].and occasionally slur three/ three.
you would in my opinion,be well advised to buy both Cranitch and Mcnevin,their styles are different,but their advice is sound and easy to follow.they are both highly respected fiddlers.
in the end it is a matter of individual taste.
personally I find Caomain o Raillaighs, bowing, not very good for dancing,he is of course very accomplished.
I would rather listen to Julia Clifford , Paddy Canny,OR bobby Casey.
Padraig Okeefe,JamesMorrison GeorgeWhelan all taught their pupils a system of bowing ,indeed this is the way Parick Kelly was taught.,although he later modified his bowing when playing with others.
learning bowing in this fashion is fine ,providing it is only a stepping stone to developing your own style.
thatr was why I suggested you bought two different tutors,so you get two different takes on it.Dick Miles
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Bowing patterns
that first line ,should read a slightly lesser emphasis on fourth beat.Dick Miles
# Posted on April 13th 2008 by dickens metrognome