I'm a guitarist and just got a book of the great James Morrison's own fiddle transcriptions. The book was put together by one of of James' former students and I'm very excited to have a copy. I was practicing with it today and there are symbols over various noted that denote " fiddle roll's". I'm not actually sure what a fiddle roll is though. I listen to and play a fair amount of ITM so I know I've actually heard fiddle roll's but I just need someone to describe what they sound like so I can figure them out on guitar. Also, do any guitarists out there have any tips for playing a roll on guitar?
All replies are greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!
There is a book by a person called Cari Fuchs (an American
publication I think) called "Irish Session Tunes" (I think) that has a rather interesting page at its beginning dedicated to notating short rolls, long rolls, trills, etc. as they would occur on a fiddle. It is also a great book because the author indicates the ornaments above the score and also in a lot of cases notates little sections of variation for repeats on most tunes. Its my personal favourite book of tunes. I think there's well over two hundred in it.
Roll on first fret note for example:
Pluck note fingered with first finger
Hammer-on third fret followed by a pull-off all with 3rd finger
Pull-off with first finger to play the open string and
Finish with a hammer-on first finger again
On a guitar rolls are fairly easy in the upper register of the fretboard, where the note spacing is closer. At the lower positions they require some pretty extreme finger spacing compared to first position on a fiddle. The scale length works against you here.
There are some parallels with electric lead guitar playing. In guitar terminology I'd say a roll is a hammer-on followed by two pull-offs and then a hammer back to the original note. Like Whiddler described it.
That leads me to a question I've been pondering. How common is it in traditional music for a guitarist to play melodies? I've been a rock/blues guitarist for years but only got into ITM and fiddling recently.
For a roll on guitar, your best bet is a picked triplet. You're not going to get the updownup of a proper roll on a plectrum instrument, not at dance tempo, and people who try usually end up sounding a little lost. So just go for the picked triplet, the "stutter picking" as I sometimes call it. Remember that ornaments are not melodic devices, they are rhythmic. The fact that they are produced in a way that can be notated melodically on the fiddle or on the flute doesn't change that.
Jon, that's probably a safe bet usually. I have occasionally heard exceptional acoustic guitarists who had the technique to make each note heard in short legato runs, but usually there won't be much volume unless each note is picked. I particularly like the sound of a picked triplet on banjo and it should work well on guitar as well.
You don't get the same effect playing a roll on the guitar as you do on a fiddle. Whether playing guitar or banjo I would play a picked triplet, either one note, or use two notes e.g DED. Occasionally I would use three, especially in the key of A,in,say Peter Street C#BA, or C#C#A on banjo, or the same tune on guitar in G, capo 2, using BAG, or BBG. I would pick all my triplets Down/Up/Down. I noticed in your profile you play fingerstyle guitar so I hope you can find some way to adapt this plectrum technique.
There has been some discussion over on http://www.mandolincafe.com about playing rolls on mandolin. Most of this can be applied equally to guitar (On the one hand, the mandolin has a shorter scale which is an advantage - on the other, the strings are stiffer and you play two at a time, which is a hindrance). Picking every note in a roll with the speed and precision necessary to give an effect equivalent to that of a fiddle roll is close to a physical impossibility. A few mandolin players use a combination of picking, pull-offs and hammer-ons. The lower string stiffness and greater sustain of the guitar might allow you to do it all with a single pick stroke. But most (myself included) take a similar approach to Tony above. Although this does not directly replicate the notes played by a fiddler (or piper or flute player, who execute rolls in a similar way to fiddlers), the overall effect is very similar, or at the very least, compatible.
Lots of us who play guitar like to play an occasional roll. I’m not sure whether llig wants us to stop doing it or to stop calling it a roll.
Of course, it doesn’t sound like a fiddle roll. Neither does a pipe roll or a flute roll or a box roll. It’s just another little development in the evolution of the music. Some like it; some don’t. It may or may not survive. Meanwhile, I plan to keep doing it and, for lack of a better term, I’ll call it a roll. Who knows? Maybe some day fiddlers will be envious because that particular sound is forever beyond their reach.
Well, I think anyone would agree that you can't play a fiddle roll on the guitar, just as you can't play a pipe roll on the fiddle or make a jelly roll without jelly. A fiddle roll, by definition, is a roll played on the fiddle. So, obviously, what we're discussing here is how to play a guitar roll. On the guitar, just to be clear.
Because of the weak sustain, a guitar roll often (usually?)involves plucking one note in addition to the initial note, so in this way it’s qualitatively different from a fiddle roll. The argument can be made (and has been) that, because of this, it’s not really a roll. That’s a defensible argument, but then what *do* we call it? Most people seem to think it makes sense to apply a slightly broader use of the term “roll.”
Thanks for all the replies! I've heard rolls a million times but just didn't know the terminology (right or wrong I always thought of them as triplets even when played on fiddle).
Now that I know what a roll is I can tell you that I saw Angela Carberry play some really impressive banjo a while back, she uses a flat pick and played rolls as picked triplets... she sounded great too. I also saw Tony McManus once and as best I can tell he played picket triplets with his fingers in this order- ring finger, middle, index.
I paly mostly fingerstyle with a thumb pick so if I were playing a one note picked triplet I guess I'd play down strokes with my thumb and upstrokes with my index finger OR try the Tony McManus way wich I'm sure is the tougher of the two ways. I'm sure it would pay to bet proficient at both techniques.
Thanks again for all the replies they've are VERY helpful!
I want to make this disclaimer before I say more: the following is not germane to traditional music. You can play a roll on an electric guitar, especially with the sustain you get from an overdriven amplifier. It's only similar to a fiddle/pipe/flute roll because the notes sustain without picking them individually.
But like I said that's in a totally different genre of music. I'm sure no one wants to hear a distorted lead guitar in traditional music.
You can approximate some fiddle rolls and other effects fingerstyle, they won't be the same as a fiddle, but most of us here knew what you meant... triplets too do not have to be individually picked with a flatpick, I do the hammer on, off on. a lot.. better to show you next time we're at the session. It can tear your fingers up pretty well until major callouses are built up if you go for good attack and volume... which is in this case very much sounded with the left hand on the fingerboard as well as playing the string with the right hand finger... sometimes people ask what happened the fingers on my left hand though, and I say "witness protection program". They are really chewed up badly.
One of my favorite things is to approximate a fiddle slide the same exact moment the fiddler does it... and how you know they are going to do it, when and where... that's a real trick, especially if you never played with the person before. It's really not hard to do at all, and you can get some good sustain with a decent instrument... not like a bow, we don't pretend to be a fiddle, but it's real cool when you do it in unison with the fiddle. It's different from the fiddle and that's what is nice... it has a personality all it's own that goes well with it, yet you can draw the note out with a bit of practice. Maybe I lead a super dull life but when these slides happen simultaneously with the fiddler sliding... not much more can top that for thrills.
We'll catch up somewhere in NJ and I'll show you what I think you are talking about exactly... a lot is actually sounded with the left for fingerstyle especially. You can also use the left to join in on some noting to catch little snips of melody.
Good for you asking this kind of question.... leads to talk about the possibilities of this very versatile instrument. Too many want to find 2-3 chords per key, treat the poor thing like an autoharp and never explore its depths, and it is darned deep and complex as any melody instrument. in fact it is one, but not many play it like that... and Ray is a real nice fingerstyle tune player for those of you who don't know him!
"Bob, you're wrong. fiddle, flute/whiste and pipe rolls are exactly the same."
...in that the activating force for the notes continues undiminished through the slurs. No argument.
"I don't care what you call your attempt at it on a guitar, just so long as you know it's only an imitation."
Well, of course it's an imitation. Playing ITM on the guitar is mainly an imitation of playing ITM on the banjo, which is an imitation of playing ITM on box or fiddle or whatever, which is an imitation of whatever came before.
PS... Ray... if anyone takes note of the Morrison Book you mentioned.... IT SOLD OUT today on the first run... should have more in three weeks. Website for the book by Veronica McNamara, one of the few remaining Morrison students is here, with a preview of some of the great pages. http://www.hearts-content.net/JamesMorrisonBook.html
Sorry Bob, just have to let you know that I sometimes play guitar rolls on my fiddle. I use a 0.80 mm gauge plectrum and hammer-on and pull-off like my life depends on ripping the callouses right off my left-hand fingers. All done pizzicato, of course.
That is an altogether GREAT book... congrats, kudos and thanks to you and Veronica for your hard work. That is a project that really needed to be done! I want to get another copy my for niece, she takes flute lessons from Margie in Pearl River.
P.S. can you resend me your email with the date for the Seton Hall gig. I cleaned up my emails and lost it. Thanks.
I play a classical guitar, and its not nearly as hard to do what your talking about with a roll on it than on a steel string. Its never going to have the same sound as a bowed fretless instrument (if only because of the decay), but I'm pretty sure on a classical I could train myself to do the legatto motion mentioned herein fairly rapidly. It would just take patience and time.
Yeah, it works better on classical. You can pull it off without any extra help from the right hand. Even better on a flamenco guitar. They're designed for continuous slurring.
I find the fat neck on classical with my small hands makes it awkward, but suppose it is what you are used to. I use a standard steel neck but shaved down a bit further in the back, a little flatter too rather than rounded so much. With light strings, and good action... must be as close as you dare go on the setup, a hair before buziing.... can get great slurs with good enough sustain so that it sings along with the fiddle for the same timing. Slides... slurs... triplets, I do all with the left, but the action must be perfect and easy for steel anyway.
I step into this quagmire with considerable trepidation. Decay can be minimized with the handling of each note. Let's consider a "whatchamacallit" that involves the first finger on the second fret as the base note. The first note is struck with the pick (energizing the string), the second and third notes are energized by the ring finger slamming into the string and rapidly pulling off (i.e., plucking it), the index finger can then pull off the second fret (adding energy to the string again) and then slam back down (yet more energy). I heartily agree that this won't sound exactly like a pipe roll (which I consider the most orthodox form of roll) but the string isn't just sitting there progressively dissipating energy over the course of the five notes. On highly responsive guitars, a good player can adapt each left hand movement to produce a pretty smooth sound. This can work well and sound, to my ears, very "in place" with trad. Just my opinion, however.
as has been said, it takes an even input throughout, this is very important to the smoothness of it. A breath, a bow, a bag. Even bellows (accordion things) don't get it right because they change reeds. You can hear the stopping and starting of the reeds.
However, I applaud any attempt at getting it without the continuous input.
''You can't play fiddle/flute/whiste/pipe rolls (they are all the same) on a guitar.''
Llig you are wrong. They are not the same.
A pipe roll on F# uses A as the high note while a fiddle would use G. like wise the B roll on the pipes uses D as the high note while a C would be more common on the fiddle.
Try rolling on A. on the fiddle in first position.... uh uh. pipes, , whistle.. not a problem.
Try rolling a high D on the pipes
try rolling a C on a whistle? or for that matter a High D.
Quite simply different instruments use different ornaments.
This clearly indicates that ornaments such as a roll simply cannot be part of a tune unless composed for and on an instrument that is capable of playing them and specifically for that instrument.
Surely the ethos of ITM disallows such exclusivity? A tune can be played on whistle, pipes, fiddle, banjo or whatever. With or without rolls, etc.
There are a number of ornaments such as crans that can only be approximated on instruments like the fiddle and guitar. This obviously does not make the fiddle and guitar any lesser instruments, or that ITM can not be played authentically on the guitar or fiddle.
The ornaments are what we, as artists , use to vary a tune, they are rarely if ever an integral part of the tune. If they were, they would not be ornaments.
I agree with Llig that rolls can not be played on the guitar. So what? Who cares? its not a fiddle!
Rolls are a minor little trick in the great scheme of things. Sure some regional fiddle styles use them a lot, but they are hardly a defining aspect of ITM . Listen to the playing of , say Micho Russel for example, Surely no one here is going to say he didnt play ITM 'Authentically!'
Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Hi Folks,
I'm a guitarist and just got a book of the great James Morrison's own fiddle transcriptions. The book was put together by one of of James' former students and I'm very excited to have a copy. I was practicing with it today and there are symbols over various noted that denote " fiddle roll's". I'm not actually sure what a fiddle roll is though. I listen to and play a fair amount of ITM so I know I've actually heard fiddle roll's but I just need someone to describe what they sound like so I can figure them out on guitar. Also, do any guitarists out there have any tips for playing a roll on guitar?
All replies are greatly appreciated, thanks in advance!
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Note, note higher, note, note lower, note done fast.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
There is a book by a person called Cari Fuchs (an American
publication I think) called "Irish Session Tunes" (I think) that has a rather interesting page at its beginning dedicated to notating short rolls, long rolls, trills, etc. as they would occur on a fiddle. It is also a great book because the author indicates the ornaments above the score and also in a lot of cases notates little sections of variation for repeats on most tunes. Its my personal favourite book of tunes. I think there's well over two hundred in it.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Roll on first fret note for example:
Pluck note fingered with first finger
Hammer-on third fret followed by a pull-off all with 3rd finger
Pull-off with first finger to play the open string and
Finish with a hammer-on first finger again
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Donough
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
On a guitar rolls are fairly easy in the upper register of the fretboard, where the note spacing is closer. At the lower positions they require some pretty extreme finger spacing compared to first position on a fiddle. The scale length works against you here.
There are some parallels with electric lead guitar playing. In guitar terminology I'd say a roll is a hammer-on followed by two pull-offs and then a hammer back to the original note. Like Whiddler described it.
That leads me to a question I've been pondering. How common is it in traditional music for a guitarist to play melodies? I've been a rock/blues guitarist for years but only got into ITM and fiddling recently.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Scott Esch
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Donough beat me to the hammer-on pull-off analogy.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Scott Esch
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
For a roll on guitar, your best bet is a picked triplet. You're not going to get the updownup of a proper roll on a plectrum instrument, not at dance tempo, and people who try usually end up sounding a little lost. So just go for the picked triplet, the "stutter picking" as I sometimes call it. Remember that ornaments are not melodic devices, they are rhythmic. The fact that they are produced in a way that can be notated melodically on the fiddle or on the flute doesn't change that.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Jon, that's probably a safe bet usually. I have occasionally heard exceptional acoustic guitarists who had the technique to make each note heard in short legato runs, but usually there won't be much volume unless each note is picked. I particularly like the sound of a picked triplet on banjo and it should work well on guitar as well.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Scott Esch
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Quite simply, you can't play rolls on a guitar. I'm afraid that rolls are part of a whole wealth of the music that will forever be beyond your reach.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
You don't get the same effect playing a roll on the guitar as you do on a fiddle. Whether playing guitar or banjo I would play a picked triplet, either one note, or use two notes e.g DED. Occasionally I would use three, especially in the key of A,in,say Peter Street C#BA, or C#C#A on banjo, or the same tune on guitar in G, capo 2, using BAG, or BBG. I would pick all my triplets Down/Up/Down. I noticed in your profile you play fingerstyle guitar so I hope you can find some way to adapt this plectrum technique.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Tony O'Rourke
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Roll on the next discussion topic....
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
There has been some discussion over on http://www.mandolincafe.com about playing rolls on mandolin. Most of this can be applied equally to guitar (On the one hand, the mandolin has a shorter scale which is an advantage - on the other, the strings are stiffer and you play two at a time, which is a hindrance). Picking every note in a roll with the speed and precision necessary to give an effect equivalent to that of a fiddle roll is close to a physical impossibility. A few mandolin players use a combination of picking, pull-offs and hammer-ons. The lower string stiffness and greater sustain of the guitar might allow you to do it all with a single pick stroke. But most (myself included) take a similar approach to Tony above. Although this does not directly replicate the notes played by a fiddler (or piper or flute player, who execute rolls in a similar way to fiddlers), the overall effect is very similar, or at the very least, compatible.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by granama
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
You can't play rolls on a mandolin either
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Lots of us who play guitar like to play an occasional roll. I’m not sure whether llig wants us to stop doing it or to stop calling it a roll.
Of course, it doesn’t sound like a fiddle roll. Neither does a pipe roll or a flute roll or a box roll. It’s just another little development in the evolution of the music. Some like it; some don’t. It may or may not survive. Meanwhile, I plan to keep doing it and, for lack of a better term, I’ll call it a roll. Who knows? Maybe some day fiddlers will be envious because that particular sound is forever beyond their reach.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Oh for christ sake, of course I don't want you to stop doing it, what ever it is you do. Just don't get it confused with the real thing.
The question is quite specific:
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
The answer is just as specific"
You can't play fiddle/flute/whiste/pipe rolls (they are all the same) on a guitar.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Well, I think anyone would agree that you can't play a fiddle roll on the guitar, just as you can't play a pipe roll on the fiddle or make a jelly roll without jelly. A fiddle roll, by definition, is a roll played on the fiddle. So, obviously, what we're discussing here is how to play a guitar roll. On the guitar, just to be clear.
Because of the weak sustain, a guitar roll often (usually?)involves plucking one note in addition to the initial note, so in this way it’s qualitatively different from a fiddle roll. The argument can be made (and has been) that, because of this, it’s not really a roll. That’s a defensible argument, but then what *do* we call it? Most people seem to think it makes sense to apply a slightly broader use of the term “roll.”
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Bob, you're wrong. fiddle, flute/whiste and pipe rolls are exactly the same.
I don't care what you call your attempt at it on a guitar, just so long as you know it's only an imitation.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Thanks for all the replies! I've heard rolls a million times but just didn't know the terminology (right or wrong I always thought of them as triplets even when played on fiddle).
Now that I know what a roll is I can tell you that I saw Angela Carberry play some really impressive banjo a while back, she uses a flat pick and played rolls as picked triplets... she sounded great too. I also saw Tony McManus once and as best I can tell he played picket triplets with his fingers in this order- ring finger, middle, index.
I paly mostly fingerstyle with a thumb pick so if I were playing a one note picked triplet I guess I'd play down strokes with my thumb and upstrokes with my index finger OR try the Tony McManus way wich I'm sure is the tougher of the two ways. I'm sure it would pay to bet proficient at both techniques.
Thanks again for all the replies they've are VERY helpful!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Especially
"Quite simply, you can't play rolls on a guitar. I'm afraid that rolls are part of a whole wealth of the music that will forever be beyond your reach"
from Mr. Positive, I'm sure. The soul of encouragement and support...
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by ayedbl
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
LOL!!!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
I want to make this disclaimer before I say more: the following is not germane to traditional music. You can play a roll on an electric guitar, especially with the sustain you get from an overdriven amplifier. It's only similar to a fiddle/pipe/flute roll because the notes sustain without picking them individually.
But like I said that's in a totally different genre of music. I'm sure no one wants to hear a distorted lead guitar in traditional music.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Scott Esch
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
You can approximate some fiddle rolls and other effects fingerstyle, they won't be the same as a fiddle, but most of us here knew what you meant... triplets too do not have to be individually picked with a flatpick, I do the hammer on, off on. a lot.. better to show you next time we're at the session. It can tear your fingers up pretty well until major callouses are built up if you go for good attack and volume... which is in this case very much sounded with the left hand on the fingerboard as well as playing the string with the right hand finger... sometimes people ask what happened the fingers on my left hand though, and I say "witness protection program". They are really chewed up badly.
One of my favorite things is to approximate a fiddle slide the same exact moment the fiddler does it... and how you know they are going to do it, when and where... that's a real trick, especially if you never played with the person before. It's really not hard to do at all, and you can get some good sustain with a decent instrument... not like a bow, we don't pretend to be a fiddle, but it's real cool when you do it in unison with the fiddle. It's different from the fiddle and that's what is nice... it has a personality all it's own that goes well with it, yet you can draw the note out with a bit of practice. Maybe I lead a super dull life but when these slides happen simultaneously with the fiddler sliding... not much more can top that for thrills.
We'll catch up somewhere in NJ and I'll show you what I think you are talking about exactly... a lot is actually sounded with the left for fingerstyle especially. You can also use the left to join in on some noting to catch little snips of melody.
Good for you asking this kind of question.... leads to talk about the possibilities of this very versatile instrument. Too many want to find 2-3 chords per key, treat the poor thing like an autoharp and never explore its depths, and it is darned deep and complex as any melody instrument. in fact it is one, but not many play it like that... and Ray is a real nice fingerstyle tune player for those of you who don't know him!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
"Bob, you're wrong. fiddle, flute/whiste and pipe rolls are exactly the same."
...in that the activating force for the notes continues undiminished through the slurs. No argument.
"I don't care what you call your attempt at it on a guitar, just so long as you know it's only an imitation."
Well, of course it's an imitation. Playing ITM on the guitar is mainly an imitation of playing ITM on the banjo, which is an imitation of playing ITM on box or fiddle or whatever, which is an imitation of whatever came before.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
PS... Ray... if anyone takes note of the Morrison Book you mentioned.... IT SOLD OUT today on the first run... should have more in three weeks. Website for the book by Veronica McNamara, one of the few remaining Morrison students is here, with a preview of some of the great pages.
http://www.hearts-content.net/JamesMorrisonBook.html
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Sorry Bob, just have to let you know that I sometimes play guitar rolls on my fiddle. I use a 0.80 mm gauge plectrum and hammer-on and pull-off like my life depends on ripping the callouses right off my left-hand fingers. All done pizzicato, of course.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Hey Iris,
That is an altogether GREAT book... congrats, kudos and thanks to you and Veronica for your hard work. That is a project that really needed to be done! I want to get another copy my for niece, she takes flute lessons from Margie in Pearl River.
P.S. can you resend me your email with the date for the Seton Hall gig. I cleaned up my emails and lost it. Thanks.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Raymond G
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
You're an intrepid pioneer, Will!
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Oh dear... Yes...I must post it to Events....
It is this Thursday.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
OK... Ray... and anyone in NJ.... it is posted in Events, a talk by Paul Keating, followed by a concert with Hearts Content and Friends
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Hi All,
I play a classical guitar, and its not nearly as hard to do what your talking about with a roll on it than on a steel string. Its never going to have the same sound as a bowed fretless instrument (if only because of the decay), but I'm pretty sure on a classical I could train myself to do the legatto motion mentioned herein fairly rapidly. It would just take patience and time.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by James Oden
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
Yeah, it works better on classical. You can pull it off without any extra help from the right hand. Even better on a flamenco guitar. They're designed for continuous slurring.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
I find the fat neck on classical with my small hands makes it awkward, but suppose it is what you are used to. I use a standard steel neck but shaved down a bit further in the back, a little flatter too rather than rounded so much. With light strings, and good action... must be as close as you dare go on the setup, a hair before buziing.... can get great slurs with good enough sustain so that it sings along with the fiddle for the same timing. Slides... slurs... triplets, I do all with the left, but the action must be perfect and easy for steel anyway.
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
I step into this quagmire with considerable trepidation. Decay can be minimized with the handling of each note. Let's consider a "whatchamacallit" that involves the first finger on the second fret as the base note. The first note is struck with the pick (energizing the string), the second and third notes are energized by the ring finger slamming into the string and rapidly pulling off (i.e., plucking it), the index finger can then pull off the second fret (adding energy to the string again) and then slam back down (yet more energy). I heartily agree that this won't sound exactly like a pipe roll (which I consider the most orthodox form of roll) but the string isn't just sitting there progressively dissipating energy over the course of the five notes. On highly responsive guitars, a good player can adapt each left hand movement to produce a pretty smooth sound. This can work well and sound, to my ears, very "in place" with trad. Just my opinion, however.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by devellis
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
as has been said, it takes an even input throughout, this is very important to the smoothness of it. A breath, a bow, a bag. Even bellows (accordion things) don't get it right because they change reeds. You can hear the stopping and starting of the reeds.
However, I applaud any attempt at getting it without the continuous input.
# Posted on April 11th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
llig, im a guitarist..and i bet you can't do 8 fingered tapping on the box!
# Posted on April 28th 2008 by hakanozel
Re: Question: Fiddle Roll's on guitar.
''You can't play fiddle/flute/whiste/pipe rolls (they are all the same) on a guitar.''
Llig you are wrong. They are not the same.
A pipe roll on F# uses A as the high note while a fiddle would use G. like wise the B roll on the pipes uses D as the high note while a C would be more common on the fiddle.
Try rolling on A. on the fiddle in first position.... uh uh. pipes, , whistle.. not a problem.
Try rolling a high D on the pipes
try rolling a C on a whistle? or for that matter a High D.
Quite simply different instruments use different ornaments.
This clearly indicates that ornaments such as a roll simply cannot be part of a tune unless composed for and on an instrument that is capable of playing them and specifically for that instrument.
Surely the ethos of ITM disallows such exclusivity? A tune can be played on whistle, pipes, fiddle, banjo or whatever. With or without rolls, etc.
There are a number of ornaments such as crans that can only be approximated on instruments like the fiddle and guitar. This obviously does not make the fiddle and guitar any lesser instruments, or that ITM can not be played authentically on the guitar or fiddle.
The ornaments are what we, as artists , use to vary a tune, they are rarely if ever an integral part of the tune. If they were, they would not be ornaments.
I agree with Llig that rolls can not be played on the guitar. So what? Who cares? its not a fiddle!
Rolls are a minor little trick in the great scheme of things. Sure some regional fiddle styles use them a lot, but they are hardly a defining aspect of ITM . Listen to the playing of , say Micho Russel for example, Surely no one here is going to say he didnt play ITM 'Authentically!'
# Posted on April 30th 2008 by jig