I disagree,
while he has a very good technique.,he does nothing for me musically.
in my opinion,this is an example of how not to play traditional or any music,all technique and no soul.
sorry ,but I wouldnt want to play like that in a million years.
Well, I can agree that it's not my cup of tea and I wouldn't want to play like that either. But you can't say "it's an example of how "not" to play traditional music" ... for it simply is an example of how to play it. He's a traditional fiddle player.
If you respect and study this music, like ot or not, respect and study Sean McGuire. Think what you like about him, but don't dismiss him.
I sometimes try and play as fast as that but end up wondering afterwards did I miss something.....
Awful sound out of that pickup/mike whatever, sounds like a wasp in a jamjar - ugh - which is a pity.
Phoooo...interesting argument building up here....
I'm not with Dick here, but neither with Michael. the amplification makes the fiddle sound like a fvckin byoogle
Listening to Sean McGuire is having to do maths at school. I hate it, it is unnecessarily complicated, but you have to do it to pass the grade- ie, to be a trad musician, who knows all the bits of the subject. Personally, it's not fun. I get a heedick. Everyone says listen to sean - i have the albums..somewhere. Give me Seamus any day - Macguire or Connelly.
I can't deny that he had great ability, but I find it simply is not musically enjoyable to listen to. When I play the CD of his that I have for my wife, she readily concurs, in more colorful terms
Yeurgh....this may be the worst of Sean McGuire I've ever come across, only in part due to the muted trumpet sound he gets out of that pick up.
The clip is a good example of how speed kills, triplets become boring and predictable when used without imagination, and the music loses any connection to dance or unpretentious fun. Sad.
Oh boo hoo. How dare he play like that, and offend all your delicate sensibilities?
It's not as if he learned Irish music in Ireland, and played it at a high level for several decades, and earned the right to play the tunes as he likes.
mickray, I'm not sure that anyone earns the right to dispatch a tune with so little care. The Belles of Tipperary sounded like they were in a horse race, being chased by lathered up laddies.
I have to hope that Mr. McGuire himself would not count this among his better moments....
OK, maybe I'm biased in his favor because he was an old coot who could still rock out (me being no spring chicken, myself). And yes, that pickup sound is not the best--too bad he didn't have some expert help with his sound gear.
But it had energy, and lots of entertainment value. I enjoyed it, and obviously so did the audience. Let him have his fun, I say. I still think he earned it.
OK then, you're right. It all starts by enjoying Sean McGuire's fiddling--and next thing you know, it's chimps on acid. I'm so glad somebody stopped me, before it was too late. :>)
Once again, amazing playing, I don't personally like it, it's tremendous that he was playing like that when "you'd be looking at that one a long time before you thought of a spring chicken."
On issues of respect for the music, my understanding was that Sean McGuire wanted the music to be something different from how he found it. He admired the technicality and virtuosity found in the classical tradition, and also in the "Scott Skinner" tradition and he set out to apply a conscious process of change. He's not just playing like that "because he can," he beleived that that was how it should be.
Interesting stuff. Not least because ... oh well, I'm confused ...
People whose opinions I respect have said things, above, that I might have said about other clips - too fast, unmusical, destroys the connection with dance, all flash and no soul etc. So I thought I was going to hate the clip. And I didn't ... It's not what I would choose to listen to. But it was full of life and vitality and joy, and, apart from the horrid bluebottle efffect from the pickup, I thought it was fun.
I don't play like that, or aspire to play like that - I play slower with a fair bit more lilt. But I can admire that playing for what it is. And it *was* fun.
Iam not dismissing him,I maybe am dismissing that particular peice, [although I praised his technique]I have heard him play much better than that.
in my opinion it is not the way to play traditional music,Iam entitled to an opinion,just as the original poster is entitled to his opinion.if we all liked the same music life would be very boring.
Sean Maguire,s, playing on this occasion does nothing for me.Dick Miles
The accordion player looks a bit odd because he's playing one of those electronic early midi accordions - hence the lack of bellows movement and the huge range of selector tabs. I'm not sure what sound he's chosen as I couldn't pick it out from the rest.
The fiddle playing is highly accomplished but leaves me fairly ambivalent due to the excessive speed - and I'm a well known (and oft criticised) speed merchant myself. Can't fault the man's timing, though - rock solid through all the ornamentation.
I felt for the poor guitar player - his arm must've just about come off at the elbow by the end of that.
I saw McGuire play on many occasions over the years. He came originally from Cornafean Co Cavan. He was a personal friend of a close friend of mine, and that's is how I met him. I found that over the years his style of playing was hated by many musicians but much admired by 'Joe Public' just for the entertainment value. For instance if you are not a Trad Music purist who would you rather see playing...Martin Hayes or Sean McGuire? Incidentally Mr McCabe (shown in clip) usually played piano with him and in the absence of a piano, used an Electronic Accordion. All too fast for me however, but amazing playing just the same. I enjoy listening to many of his recordings particularly the one he did with Joe Burke
I wish there were another clip of his playing where his violin sounded like a fiddle and not a bugle. The pickup just killed it for me---and it's impossible to judge his playing from this because of it.
But I'll say one thing...if that speed of playing was the only example of Irish music I had heard years ago, I never would have wanted to learn to play it myself. It gives me a heedick as well!
LOL, silver bow, the folks at our gig weren't guzzling alcohol. And your name isn't "Sean McGuire."
I think benhall hit on what I don't like about McGuire's playing, in these clips, and in general. He was avowedly interested in technical virtuosity and sought to highlight that (a la Scott Skinner) in Irish traditional music. And that, for me, misses the whole point of these wonderful tunes. Speed and flashy technique belong in the same vein as competition and showing off. Thanks, but no thanks.
I like what Kevin Burke says in the liner notes from If the Cap Fits:
"Although this album combines modern arrangements and recording techniques, I have tried to retain as much as possible, the old traditional moods of Irish music, as it used to be played long ago in rural areas by small groups of musicians. Many of these older musicians used to play by themselves and for themselves as an expression and a relaxation, just like the old bluesmen. At other times it meant relief from more worldly troubles, a therapy. Today impact and communication are regarded as essential, and I feel that at times people forget that the musician often plays for his own enjoyment. Traditional music in Ireland sometimes suffers from an overdose of severity. This is probably brought about by the tense atmosphere of competitions in which so many young people in the last 20 years have been forced to play. Something I'll always remember about the Irish musicians that I met when I was a child was that there was always an element of fun, in their playing and in their music. Sometimes this gave way to a plaintive wistful mood, but the fun was never far away. Good humour is something I've always liked in music, and I hope this record leaves you happy."
I can maybe agree that Mr. McGuire seems to be injecting his own brand of fun into the music, but one look at his grimace and straining neck makes me wonder. And he certainly seems to be aiming for *imapct.* Like, "Listen to THIS, and be impressed."
Wow, and after listening to the clip jtrout just posted, I have to say that I'm not at all impressed with McGuire's alleged technical virtuosity, either. Most mediocre "violinists" (I mean the folks in my small town symphony) would do a far better job of that air. His lack of bow control (particularly when initiating and ending the attack) is painfully obvious there.
Finally, the tone he gets from his choice of amplification leaves me wondering: was he trying to mimic Jean Luc Ponty, or just going deaf?
Frankie plays some nice licks there, and I actually like his trad spin on this swing tune. But Grappelli clearly soars above it all, yet never imposes his virtuosity over the tune--it's alsways in service to expressing the tune itself.
Interesting that all of these clips are from the same YouTube member....
And if you can last till going into the 2:50 minute mark, Sir Menuhin says something brilliant here about playing with Grappelli that applies directly to every note we trad musicians play.
Wow, I never thought I'd see Frankie Gavin looking humble---I liked that "I'm not worthy" nod he gave to Grapelli at the end.
Just goes to show how different jazz is from Irish music. There's really not much you can take from one style and apply to the other. I bet a bluegrass fiddler would have had much more success in that situation.
Couldn't agree more about the mic choice, Will---I wondered about his hearing too.
Kennedy, Irish trad tends to channel us players into certain melodic patterns that are fairly limited in their range of intervals between notes. Jazz is much freer to leap around the scale. So it's no surprise that Frankie comes up with cross bowing around the root, 3rd, and fourth on a tune like Sweet Georgia Brown. It fits, too. But it doesn't have the same soaring quality a good jazz (or potentially bluegrass) player would impart.
Also notice how Frankie's phrases tend to start and stop, with little bridging between them. Also a symptom of specialing in trad, dance-oriented music. In contrast, Grappelli puts as much emphasis on the bridges between the phrases as the phrases themselves.
Yes, true, all of what you say, Will. I think it's also that jazz is free by nature---jazz players spend a great deal of time exploring chord structures and other theoretical methods that take them very far from whatever melody they started from originally---and that's a good thing, that's what they're after.
We've occasionally seen players known as Irish players try to do the same with Irish tunes (we had a recent YouTube thread on that), and the results are not so nice (IMO, anyway)---I've always thought it's because of this fundamental structural difference between the two styles.
Forgive me, but I must challenge the view of jazz portrayed here by both Kennedy and Will.
Jazz is a catch-all phrase which covers a multitude of different styles, from free-form to the tight-as-a-donkey's-ass 'trad' bands of the 1920s. In the case of the latter, plus many of the big bands inspired by Ellington and Basie, and, dare I suggest, even some of the bebop groups of the 1940s and bebop-inspired combos of the 1950s, it's erroneous to suggest (in comparision to Irish music) that 'jazz is much freer to leap around the scale'. There were musical limits within those formats, not least in terms of key signatures and rhythm, but what distinguished a great player from a good one was the ability to recognise just how those limits might be stretched.
Listen to a collection of any of Charlie Parker's recordings with a close ear and you'll soon spot musical patterns, both in terms of arrangements and individual contributions, which gain increasing familiarity. Sure, you won't spot any such templates by listening to Albert Ayler or Cecil Taylor, but that just reinforces my point that jazz is a many-faceted beast.
In terms of Irish music itself, I'd strongly argue that many musicians over the years have exhibited that 'soaring quality', and remain uninhibited by 'dance-oriented music', including, not least, a whole gamut of uilleann pipers (Liam O'Flynn, Paddy Keenan and Ronan Browne for starters), plenty of fiddlers (Martin Hayes, for example, and dare I mention Tommy Potts?) and more than a modicum of flute-players and whistlers (Cormac Breatnach and Brian Dunning spring rapidly to mind).
Perhaps a more interesting correlation might be between Irish music and, say, the blues of the Mississippi delta.
MacCruiskeen, I don't see how you're saying something that's much different from what I was saying or what Will said. Of course there are many forms of jazz. And of course Irish music leaves room for invention.
I do think the two forms are structurally different, though. Do you disagree?
Untwist your knickers, Geoff. I never said jazz doesn't rely on musical patterns, only that it's freer in the range of those patterns than Irish trad. And a player like Grappelli ***typically*** plays phrases that go well beyond what even "uninhibited" players such as Keenan or Potts or Hayes might play. Yes, most good Irish players "soar," but it's around a different flight plan than a jazz player of even comparable talent and ability.
Besides, I was commenting specifically on the differences between Gavin's playing of one tune and Grappelli's take on the same tune.
And all of which was intended, for my part at least, to contrast to Sean McGuire's playing, which I find neither free nor virtuosic.
Just an aside - I got *exactly the same* feeling from the clips with Grappelli and Gavin as I did from Grappelli and Menuhin: both Gavin and Menuhin were simply outclassed. Trouble is, it means that, whilst Grappelli's contribution was absolutely gorgeous in all cases, the combination with the other fiddlers wasn't so great.
I just think sometimes we have to know and accept our limitations, and those two guys didn't.
I wonder, could Grappelli have 'crossed over' into the territory of the other two? Funny, but somehow I doubt it. But then, I'm not aware he tried. Wonder what he was like as a cinema organist?
I enjoyed the Sean McGuire bits. It's just one fiddler playing his way, not something you hear every day, and it's not as if his style has prevailed.
I used to enjoy a record called Jalousie, I think, with Yehudi Menuhin and Stéphane Grappelli. It seemed to me that Menuhin stuck to a score and and Grapelli played around it and it worked well . Haven't heard it for 30 years - wonder what I'd make of it now?
Will CPT - Ref' McGuire's grimace and straining neck when playing. He suffered from throat cancer and could only speak short sentences with the aid of a voice box. Could be something to do with his expression.
Nice to see the comments on here and interesting to see some of the criticisms of McGuire's playing. As someone who wouldn't class themselves anywhere near his league I would be cautious about commenting; however I have to say that from a melodic point of view I did find it missing something. However as a masterclass in the benefitsof practice and putting some fire into the music, I doubt I have seen much better. There again knowing this board as I do I am confident someone will point me in a new direction
Of course the age old adage seems to be apparent here - you can't please all of the people etc. Nonetheless I still my hope my playing is still 50% as spritely as his when I reach his age.
Sean Maguire was one of the great trad fiddlers. He made the music his own, he did his own thing to the music which isn't to everyone's taste. I'm not a fan of his slow air playing at all, but when he played other tunes he was phenomenal.
The clips people have shown here aren't really representative of him at his best.
Try this instead, around 8mins in he plays some great stuff and he's just out of hospital at the time from an operation for throat cancer!
Also to those who say he's all technique and no soul I think you've a strange definition of soul. Soulful music doesn't necessarily mean slow and mournful it can also mean spirited, upbeat music with plenty of balls,
Maguire had lots of spirit and balls in his playing and that's why he is so respected by lots of well respected traditional musicians, If you look at that clip I posted you'll notice a young Dermot McLaughlin looking on in admiration.
Just one time
Just one time
Oh to be able to play music like this - just once.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZUOT_PLgMSc&feature=related
D
# Posted on April 5th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Just one time
You and me both, Welshman. Thanks for the link.
I think I'll go do some fiddle practicing now... lots and lots of it.
# Posted on April 5th 2008 by mickray
Re: Just one time
what a horrid sound from his pick up
# Posted on April 5th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Just one time
I disagree,
while he has a very good technique.,he does nothing for me musically.
in my opinion,this is an example of how not to play traditional or any music,all technique and no soul.
sorry ,but I wouldnt want to play like that in a million years.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Just one time
Well, I can agree that it's not my cup of tea and I wouldn't want to play like that either. But you can't say "it's an example of how "not" to play traditional music" ... for it simply is an example of how to play it. He's a traditional fiddle player.
If you respect and study this music, like ot or not, respect and study Sean McGuire. Think what you like about him, but don't dismiss him.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Just one time
I sometimes try and play as fast as that but end up wondering afterwards did I miss something.....
Awful sound out of that pickup/mike whatever, sounds like a wasp in a jamjar - ugh - which is a pity.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Just one time
Phoooo...interesting argument building up here....
I'm not with Dick here, but neither with Michael. the amplification makes the fiddle sound like a fvckin byoogle
Listening to Sean McGuire is having to do maths at school. I hate it, it is unnecessarily complicated, but you have to do it to pass the grade- ie, to be a trad musician, who knows all the bits of the subject. Personally, it's not fun. I get a heedick. Everyone says listen to sean - i have the albums..somewhere. Give me Seamus any day - Macguire or Connelly.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Just one time
How about dear old Jean Carignan?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gT3DctGzUhI
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by john knoss
Re: Just one time
I can't deny that he had great ability, but I find it simply is not musically enjoyable to listen to. When I play the CD of his that I have for my wife, she readily concurs, in more colorful terms
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by crazy_fingerz
Re: Just one time
Yeurgh....this may be the worst of Sean McGuire I've ever come across, only in part due to the muted trumpet sound he gets out of that pick up.
The clip is a good example of how speed kills, triplets become boring and predictable when used without imagination, and the music loses any connection to dance or unpretentious fun. Sad.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
Yes, amazing technique, but to play a lovely tune like Lad O'Beirnes like that, it's like putting a big outboard motor on an antique rowing boat.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Just one time
It sounded forced.
All orgasm and no foreplay so to speak.
I agree with Danny, it also gave me a heedick.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: Just one time
If I could play quarter that good at that age (or any age for that matter), I'd be very happy.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Just one time
The only pick-up that I might need at that age is a walking frame. (There you go, got in before ye)
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Just one time
Oh boo hoo. How dare he play like that, and offend all your delicate sensibilities?
It's not as if he learned Irish music in Ireland, and played it at a high level for several decades, and earned the right to play the tunes as he likes.
Oh wait, that's right--he did. So get over it.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by mickray
Re: Just one time
Polka band on speed playing reels?
Im sure if ida been there i wouldve enjoyed it, but Its not my cup of tea.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by The Merry Highlander
Re: Just one time
mickray, I'm not sure that anyone earns the right to dispatch a tune with so little care. The Belles of Tipperary sounded like they were in a horse race, being chased by lathered up laddies.
I have to hope that Mr. McGuire himself would not count this among his better moments....
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
Holy cow. That was very entertaining.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Whiddler
Re: Just one time
OK, maybe I'm biased in his favor because he was an old coot who could still rock out (me being no spring chicken, myself). And yes, that pickup sound is not the best--too bad he didn't have some expert help with his sound gear.
But it had energy, and lots of entertainment value. I enjoyed it, and obviously so did the audience. Let him have his fun, I say. I still think he earned it.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by mickray
Re: Just one time
I'm impressed with the accordion player -- he's playing so fast you can't even see his fingers moving.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Just one time
The audience enjoyed it? Did you notice how many empties were on the tables?!?! They would have enjoyed chimps on acid doing karaoke.....
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
OK then, you're right. It all starts by enjoying Sean McGuire's fiddling--and next thing you know, it's chimps on acid. I'm so glad somebody stopped me, before it was too late. :>)
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by mickray
Re: Just one time
I thought it was alright. At the very least, he didn't travel around with conga drummers and play a blue violin.
Hey CPT, the audience seemed to enjoy it more than the folks watching us on stage a few weeks ago. I mean, we really cleared out the room, no?
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by silver bow
Re: Just one time
I suppose it's the "can you" versus "should you" conundrum again; all well for the first, maybe nay on the second.
--DtM
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: Just one time
Once again, amazing playing, I don't personally like it, it's tremendous that he was playing like that when "you'd be looking at that one a long time before you thought of a spring chicken."
On issues of respect for the music, my understanding was that Sean McGuire wanted the music to be something different from how he found it. He admired the technicality and virtuosity found in the classical tradition, and also in the "Scott Skinner" tradition and he set out to apply a conscious process of change. He's not just playing like that "because he can," he beleived that that was how it should be.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by TomB-R
Re: Just one time
Interesting stuff. Not least because ... oh well, I'm confused ...
People whose opinions I respect have said things, above, that I might have said about other clips - too fast, unmusical, destroys the connection with dance, all flash and no soul etc. So I thought I was going to hate the clip. And I didn't ... It's not what I would choose to listen to. But it was full of life and vitality and joy, and, apart from the horrid bluebottle efffect from the pickup, I thought it was fun.
I don't play like that, or aspire to play like that - I play slower with a fair bit more lilt. But I can admire that playing for what it is. And it *was* fun.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Just one time
Iam not dismissing him,I maybe am dismissing that particular peice, [although I praised his technique]I have heard him play much better than that.
in my opinion it is not the way to play traditional music,Iam entitled to an opinion,just as the original poster is entitled to his opinion.if we all liked the same music life would be very boring.
Sean Maguire,s, playing on this occasion does nothing for me.Dick Miles
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Just one time
The accordion player looks a bit odd because he's playing one of those electronic early midi accordions - hence the lack of bellows movement and the huge range of selector tabs. I'm not sure what sound he's chosen as I couldn't pick it out from the rest.
The fiddle playing is highly accomplished but leaves me fairly ambivalent due to the excessive speed - and I'm a well known (and oft criticised) speed merchant myself. Can't fault the man's timing, though - rock solid through all the ornamentation.
I felt for the poor guitar player - his arm must've just about come off at the elbow by the end of that.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: Just one time
I saw McGuire play on many occasions over the years. He came originally from Cornafean Co Cavan. He was a personal friend of a close friend of mine, and that's is how I met him. I found that over the years his style of playing was hated by many musicians but much admired by 'Joe Public' just for the entertainment value. For instance if you are not a Trad Music purist who would you rather see playing...Martin Hayes or Sean McGuire? Incidentally Mr McCabe (shown in clip) usually played piano with him and in the absence of a piano, used an Electronic Accordion. All too fast for me however, but amazing playing just the same. I enjoy listening to many of his recordings particularly the one he did with Joe Burke
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Just one time
I wish there were another clip of his playing where his violin sounded like a fiddle and not a bugle. The pickup just killed it for me---and it's impossible to judge his playing from this because of it.
But I'll say one thing...if that speed of playing was the only example of Irish music I had heard years ago, I never would have wanted to learn to play it myself. It gives me a heedick as well!
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Just one time
Okay, this clip is better, at least it sounds like a fiddle:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zn70NAPW4hg
I'm guessing McGuire doesn't come from Clare?
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Just one time
Sounds like the same pickup to me, just with marginally better amplification. Another interesting, if not terribly beautiful, clip.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Just one time
Then there's this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNVI2RBMPP8&feature=related
I'm not a fiddle player. Do the huge rings on the fingers create a counterbalance for the speed?
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by jtrout
Re: Just one time
LOL, silver bow, the folks at our gig weren't guzzling alcohol. And your name isn't "Sean McGuire."
I think benhall hit on what I don't like about McGuire's playing, in these clips, and in general. He was avowedly interested in technical virtuosity and sought to highlight that (a la Scott Skinner) in Irish traditional music. And that, for me, misses the whole point of these wonderful tunes. Speed and flashy technique belong in the same vein as competition and showing off. Thanks, but no thanks.
I like what Kevin Burke says in the liner notes from If the Cap Fits:
"Although this album combines modern arrangements and recording techniques, I have tried to retain as much as possible, the old traditional moods of Irish music, as it used to be played long ago in rural areas by small groups of musicians. Many of these older musicians used to play by themselves and for themselves as an expression and a relaxation, just like the old bluesmen. At other times it meant relief from more worldly troubles, a therapy. Today impact and communication are regarded as essential, and I feel that at times people forget that the musician often plays for his own enjoyment. Traditional music in Ireland sometimes suffers from an overdose of severity. This is probably brought about by the tense atmosphere of competitions in which so many young people in the last 20 years have been forced to play. Something I'll always remember about the Irish musicians that I met when I was a child was that there was always an element of fun, in their playing and in their music. Sometimes this gave way to a plaintive wistful mood, but the fun was never far away. Good humour is something I've always liked in music, and I hope this record leaves you happy."
I can maybe agree that Mr. McGuire seems to be injecting his own brand of fun into the music, but one look at his grimace and straining neck makes me wonder. And he certainly seems to be aiming for *imapct.* Like, "Listen to THIS, and be impressed."
Sorry, just not my idea of fun.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
Wow, and after listening to the clip jtrout just posted, I have to say that I'm not at all impressed with McGuire's alleged technical virtuosity, either. Most mediocre "violinists" (I mean the folks in my small town symphony) would do a far better job of that air. His lack of bow control (particularly when initiating and ending the attack) is painfully obvious there.
Finally, the tone he gets from his choice of amplification leaves me wondering: was he trying to mimic Jean Luc Ponty, or just going deaf?
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
In fact, if that air at all appeals to you, then give a listen to someone with real technique playing in a similar style: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QZiFmOe4Mo&feature=related
Focus on Grappelli's intro--how much more musical (and joyous) it is. Not to mention technique up the wazoo, employed in the service of the music.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
Ahhhh, and Grappelli schooling a humble Mr. Gavin on Sweet Georgia Brown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=31-8MLA5kdU&feature=related
Frankie plays some nice licks there, and I actually like his trad spin on this swing tune. But Grappelli clearly soars above it all, yet never imposes his virtuosity over the tune--it's alsways in service to expressing the tune itself.
Interesting that all of these clips are from the same YouTube member....
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
And if you can last till going into the 2:50 minute mark, Sir Menuhin says something brilliant here about playing with Grappelli that applies directly to every note we trad musicians play.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xV0IcFyXUWs&feature=related
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
Wow, I never thought I'd see Frankie Gavin looking humble---I liked that "I'm not worthy" nod he gave to Grapelli at the end.
Just goes to show how different jazz is from Irish music. There's really not much you can take from one style and apply to the other. I bet a bluegrass fiddler would have had much more success in that situation.
Couldn't agree more about the mic choice, Will---I wondered about his hearing too.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Just one time
Does anybody know the name of the guitarist? I think he plays with Jim McKillop now.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by deeor
Re: Just one time
Kennedy, Irish trad tends to channel us players into certain melodic patterns that are fairly limited in their range of intervals between notes. Jazz is much freer to leap around the scale. So it's no surprise that Frankie comes up with cross bowing around the root, 3rd, and fourth on a tune like Sweet Georgia Brown. It fits, too. But it doesn't have the same soaring quality a good jazz (or potentially bluegrass) player would impart.
Also notice how Frankie's phrases tend to start and stop, with little bridging between them. Also a symptom of specialing in trad, dance-oriented music. In contrast, Grappelli puts as much emphasis on the bridges between the phrases as the phrases themselves.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
Yes, true, all of what you say, Will. I think it's also that jazz is free by nature---jazz players spend a great deal of time exploring chord structures and other theoretical methods that take them very far from whatever melody they started from originally---and that's a good thing, that's what they're after.
We've occasionally seen players known as Irish players try to do the same with Irish tunes (we had a recent YouTube thread on that), and the results are not so nice (IMO, anyway)---I've always thought it's because of this fundamental structural difference between the two styles.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Just one time
Forgive me, but I must challenge the view of jazz portrayed here by both Kennedy and Will.
Jazz is a catch-all phrase which covers a multitude of different styles, from free-form to the tight-as-a-donkey's-ass 'trad' bands of the 1920s. In the case of the latter, plus many of the big bands inspired by Ellington and Basie, and, dare I suggest, even some of the bebop groups of the 1940s and bebop-inspired combos of the 1950s, it's erroneous to suggest (in comparision to Irish music) that 'jazz is much freer to leap around the scale'. There were musical limits within those formats, not least in terms of key signatures and rhythm, but what distinguished a great player from a good one was the ability to recognise just how those limits might be stretched.
Listen to a collection of any of Charlie Parker's recordings with a close ear and you'll soon spot musical patterns, both in terms of arrangements and individual contributions, which gain increasing familiarity. Sure, you won't spot any such templates by listening to Albert Ayler or Cecil Taylor, but that just reinforces my point that jazz is a many-faceted beast.
In terms of Irish music itself, I'd strongly argue that many musicians over the years have exhibited that 'soaring quality', and remain uninhibited by 'dance-oriented music', including, not least, a whole gamut of uilleann pipers (Liam O'Flynn, Paddy Keenan and Ronan Browne for starters), plenty of fiddlers (Martin Hayes, for example, and dare I mention Tommy Potts?) and more than a modicum of flute-players and whistlers (Cormac Breatnach and Brian Dunning spring rapidly to mind).
Perhaps a more interesting correlation might be between Irish music and, say, the blues of the Mississippi delta.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Floss the Tethers
Re: Just one time
MacCruiskeen, I don't see how you're saying something that's much different from what I was saying or what Will said. Of course there are many forms of jazz. And of course Irish music leaves room for invention.
I do think the two forms are structurally different, though. Do you disagree?
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Just one time
Untwist your knickers, Geoff. I never said jazz doesn't rely on musical patterns, only that it's freer in the range of those patterns than Irish trad. And a player like Grappelli ***typically*** plays phrases that go well beyond what even "uninhibited" players such as Keenan or Potts or Hayes might play. Yes, most good Irish players "soar," but it's around a different flight plan than a jazz player of even comparable talent and ability.
Besides, I was commenting specifically on the differences between Gavin's playing of one tune and Grappelli's take on the same tune.
And all of which was intended, for my part at least, to contrast to Sean McGuire's playing, which I find neither free nor virtuosic.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Just one time
Just an aside - I got *exactly the same* feeling from the clips with Grappelli and Gavin as I did from Grappelli and Menuhin: both Gavin and Menuhin were simply outclassed. Trouble is, it means that, whilst Grappelli's contribution was absolutely gorgeous in all cases, the combination with the other fiddlers wasn't so great.
I just think sometimes we have to know and accept our limitations, and those two guys didn't.
I wonder, could Grappelli have 'crossed over' into the territory of the other two? Funny, but somehow I doubt it. But then, I'm not aware he tried. Wonder what he was like as a cinema organist?
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Just one time
I enjoyed the Sean McGuire bits. It's just one fiddler playing his way, not something you hear every day, and it's not as if his style has prevailed.
I used to enjoy a record called Jalousie, I think, with Yehudi Menuhin and Stéphane Grappelli. It seemed to me that Menuhin stuck to a score and and Grapelli played around it and it worked well . Haven't heard it for 30 years - wonder what I'd make of it now?
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Bren
Re: Just one time
Great threads. Enjoyed all your comments. Thanks for the
interesting clips---and, no' his type of "wind up" machine gun style of play turns me off.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by hauke
Re: Just one time
The guitarist looks like he got tendonitis half way through the set, but keepin a brave face.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Just one time
Will CPT - Ref' McGuire's grimace and straining neck when playing. He suffered from throat cancer and could only speak short sentences with the aid of a voice box. Could be something to do with his expression.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Just one time
Nice to see the comments on here and interesting to see some of the criticisms of McGuire's playing. As someone who wouldn't class themselves anywhere near his league I would be cautious about commenting; however I have to say that from a melodic point of view I did find it missing something. However as a masterclass in the benefitsof practice and putting some fire into the music, I doubt I have seen much better. There again knowing this board as I do I am confident someone will point me in a new direction
Of course the age old adage seems to be apparent here - you can't please all of the people etc. Nonetheless I still my hope my playing is still 50% as spritely as his when I reach his age.
D
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Welshman
Re: Just one time
Sean Maguire was one of the great trad fiddlers. He made the music his own, he did his own thing to the music which isn't to everyone's taste. I'm not a fan of his slow air playing at all, but when he played other tunes he was phenomenal.
The clips people have shown here aren't really representative of him at his best.
Try this instead, around 8mins in he plays some great stuff and he's just out of hospital at the time from an operation for throat cancer!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYkD2yk4TMM
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Just one time
Also to those who say he's all technique and no soul I think you've a strange definition of soul. Soulful music doesn't necessarily mean slow and mournful it can also mean spirited, upbeat music with plenty of balls,
Maguire had lots of spirit and balls in his playing and that's why he is so respected by lots of well respected traditional musicians, If you look at that clip I posted you'll notice a young Dermot McLaughlin looking on in admiration.
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Worldwide Pants
Re: Just one time
Like I said at the beginning. Oh to be able to play like that - just once!
D
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by Welshman