recantly this has been bugging me, i went to a session in luton, and started to play a few tunes on the old banjo, then suddenly this man said that they weren't traditional tunes, now i thought they were so i was just wonderin if anyone can tell me what defines traditinal.
A quick search for "traditional" in the Discussions section revealed 1232 items. Oh dear ...
There is a story that at a college in one of the older British universities a notice appeared to the effect that as from the beginning of the summer term it would be the tradition that only Fellows of the college would be permitted to walk on the lawn in the quadrangle. So there you are, that's tradition
Trevor
next question (you should have asked this man): what tradition? ....
and before getting cynical: I think Dow will come up soon with a couple of links to older threads on TheSession, but I think reading all the stuff is more get known the people on this community than really get info about that ocean of a topic or an answer to your question (in other words: it might take you a lifetime of playing more or less so called traditional music to get an idea what "traditional" means - and when you found your definition you hopefully become more open minded than this mentioned man seems to be ...) .... so all what is left for me to say about tradition is: Lets take care of the flames not the ashes!
Short answer: a song or tune is trad. if it has entered the Oral Tradition i.e. it is being passed on from musician to musician. It sort of develops a life of its own. You can argue about the length of time that takes. For better definitions look under the "book" thread.
By the way: at all times trad. musicians have played new or foreign or fashionable tunes. So there's little point in argueing.
Traditional is a very subjective thing. I think the basic conclusion we keep arriving at at this site is that a tune is traditional if we as a community say it is, i.e. if we as players of traditional music accept that tune into the tradition we are part of.
Good answer, Crannog! There's no way to simply definine "traditional" because it's not a simple answer. I'd tend to agree that asking the question means that you need to spend more time around folks into The Tradition. You might try starting by asking if you can hang out with the guy who thinks your tunes aren't trad, so you can get into his mindset a bit. You may find that you agree with it, or you may find that you disagree violently with him.
We don't get to be all of the tradition on our own. However, we're a part of it. If you keep those things in mind and learn and listen as much as you can, you'll find yourself in the same boat as most of the rest of us. We know what it isn't, but what it is defies a simple definition.
Phbbbbt to you, Mark! *grin* I'm still working on the house. I'm busy!
There are invisable and unwritten rules about Irish traditional music which Irish traditional musicians should know but the question is how do we learn them??
Apparently an Irish trad musician will know by the feel, sound, tone etc of tunes whether or not they are traditional. I've had a recent discussions with my teacher about this and we ended up going round in circles on the issue.
The rules apply especially for composers. e.g. Ed Reavy's, Paddy Fahey's, Paddy O'Brien's, Noel Hill's tunes - these have been passed down from generation to generation, friend to friend, session to session. During this process they tunes have been changed and altered. The musician playing the tune may not even realise these changes.
If you learn a tune from a Donegal fiddler and play it at a session in Galway another fiddler may learn it from you and they may play it in Wexford and the tune moves from person to person ...... all these musicians will play the tune with different ornamentation, variations, phrasing, emphasis etc. This tunes is therefore "traditional" - it has been passed on and has changed along the way.
A friend of mine played a Jig called Rooney's at a Fleadh and was called back by the adjucator after the comnpetition who told him it wasn't a traditional tune and therefore he shouldn't have gotten any marks for the tune. The adjucator said she marked him anyway but he shouldn't play the tune again at a Fleadh because it wasn't a "traditional" tune. According to the adjucator it was Canadian. To be honest it sounded Irish to me and musicians in my area have agreed.
It's a complicated question and I probably sound all confused in my answer!! .....
I hope you get some bit of info from my reply!!
Carrie*
The fact is that the Irish pub session is a fairly recent phenomenon, which started in London in the 1940's. Irish trad musicians working in London were in digs and could not meet up at home or any of the other traditional venues, and so started playing music in Pubs. Sessions rapidly spread to other areas of Irish migrant labour, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle to mention but a few. In this process non-traditional (for the time) instruments like the Bodhran (borrowed from the English Morris tradition) and Guitar that was of cause ubiquitous, found their way into the Tradition.
Remember that most of the instruments used in Irish traditional music did not originate there. The Uillean Pipes came from the lowlands of Scotland in the late 18th century were they were called Pastoral Pipes and a new invention. They did not reach there present form until the early 20th century in Chicago where they were adapted to play in vaudeville and moved into their present key of D. Violins came from the continent. The flute came in, in the early 19th, and free reed instruments in the late 19th century.
As to the tunes used in Irish trad dance music many are variants of tunes played in England Scotland, and Wales, and many of the dance forms came from the continent.
All traditions change, adopting new forms of playing.
This is not to mention the regional variations throughout Ireland it's self.
Many modern tune sets come from recordings.
The point is that though the musical practice is not ancient, there is a vital and vibrant repertoire of music still being regularly played in Pubs all round the world, and the music is doing a very ancient job, allowing us to celebrate our collective humanity and appreciate each others skills.
You make some good points, Pied Piper. But I'll have to pick at one of them - I was a morris dancer for nearly 20 years with a very traditional side in England and got involved in researching various aspects of The Morris. Alongside this, I began to learn the bodhrán in our local ITM session.
And I can state pretty confidently that the bodhrán was never anything to do with The Morris - the most traditional morris accompaniment being the pipe-and-tabor: a three-holed pipe and small snare drum struck with a regular drumstick and played for dancing since the middle ages. But I do agree that the bodhrán's place in ITM seems to be fairly recent, though I do have a recording of John Reynolds accompanying a flute in 1927. The playing's very straightforward and fairly unornamented.
thanks for the replys, i understand now that you cant really define taditional, anyway the tunes i played were hartigans leaving and another similar one that i have no name for, that narrow minded man was a person called james o'grady!
what defines traditional?
what defines traditional?
recantly this has been bugging me, i went to a session in luton, and started to play a few tunes on the old banjo, then suddenly this man said that they weren't traditional tunes, now i thought they were so i was just wonderin if anyone can tell me what defines traditinal.
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by Liam "banjo" Vernon
Re: what defines traditional?
Emin! Quick! I can't find the links - you have to beat Zina she's not here
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by Dow
Re: what defines traditional?
A quick search for "traditional" in the Discussions section revealed 1232 items. Oh dear ...
There is a story that at a college in one of the older British universities a notice appeared to the effect that as from the beginning of the summer term it would be the tradition that only Fellows of the college would be permitted to walk on the lawn in the quadrangle. So there you are, that's tradition
Trevor
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: what defines traditional?
first question to you: which tunes you played?
next question (you should have asked this man): what tradition? ....
and before getting cynical: I think Dow will come up soon with a couple of links to older threads on TheSession, but I think reading all the stuff is more get known the people on this community than really get info about that ocean of a topic or an answer to your question (in other words: it might take you a lifetime of playing more or less so called traditional music to get an idea what "traditional" means - and when you found your definition you hopefully become more open minded than this mentioned man seems to be ...) .... so all what is left for me to say about tradition is: Lets take care of the flames not the ashes!
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by crannog
Re: what defines traditional?
Short answer: a song or tune is trad. if it has entered the Oral Tradition i.e. it is being passed on from musician to musician. It sort of develops a life of its own. You can argue about the length of time that takes. For better definitions look under the "book" thread.
By the way: at all times trad. musicians have played new or foreign or fashionable tunes. So there's little point in argueing.
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by kuec
Re: what defines traditional?
Traditional is a very subjective thing. I think the basic conclusion we keep arriving at at this site is that a tune is traditional if we as a community say it is, i.e. if we as players of traditional music accept that tune into the tradition we are part of.
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by Dow
Re: what defines traditional?
Basic conclusion?
More like basic confusion if I remember correctly...
# Posted on May 27th 2003 by Ottery
Re: what defines traditional?
Good answer, Crannog! There's no way to simply definine "traditional" because it's not a simple answer. I'd tend to agree that asking the question means that you need to spend more time around folks into The Tradition. You might try starting by asking if you can hang out with the guy who thinks your tunes aren't trad, so you can get into his mindset a bit. You may find that you agree with it, or you may find that you disagree violently with him.
We don't get to be all of the tradition on our own. However, we're a part of it. If you keep those things in mind and learn and listen as much as you can, you'll find yourself in the same boat as most of the rest of us. We know what it isn't, but what it is defies a simple definition.
Phbbbbt to you, Mark! *grin* I'm still working on the house. I'm busy!
zls
# Posted on May 27th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: what defines traditional?
Ooh he can be a brat! Good on you Zina, I'm also being extremely domestic today.
# Posted on May 27th 2003 by emily_bmore
Re: what defines traditional?
There are invisable and unwritten rules about Irish traditional music which Irish traditional musicians should know but the question is how do we learn them??
Apparently an Irish trad musician will know by the feel, sound, tone etc of tunes whether or not they are traditional. I've had a recent discussions with my teacher about this and we ended up going round in circles on the issue.
The rules apply especially for composers. e.g. Ed Reavy's, Paddy Fahey's, Paddy O'Brien's, Noel Hill's tunes - these have been passed down from generation to generation, friend to friend, session to session. During this process they tunes have been changed and altered. The musician playing the tune may not even realise these changes.
If you learn a tune from a Donegal fiddler and play it at a session in Galway another fiddler may learn it from you and they may play it in Wexford and the tune moves from person to person ...... all these musicians will play the tune with different ornamentation, variations, phrasing, emphasis etc. This tunes is therefore "traditional" - it has been passed on and has changed along the way.
A friend of mine played a Jig called Rooney's at a Fleadh and was called back by the adjucator after the comnpetition who told him it wasn't a traditional tune and therefore he shouldn't have gotten any marks for the tune. The adjucator said she marked him anyway but he shouldn't play the tune again at a Fleadh because it wasn't a "traditional" tune. According to the adjucator it was Canadian. To be honest it sounded Irish to me and musicians in my area have agreed.
It's a complicated question and I probably sound all confused in my answer!! .....
I hope you get some bit of info from my reply!!
Carrie*
# Posted on May 27th 2003 by carrie
Re: what defines traditional?
C'mon Liam!
Tell us what tunes you did play, so we can get a glimpse of what this man considered not to be part of the tradition...
# Posted on May 27th 2003 by lars
Re: what defines traditional?
Hi Liam
The fact is that the Irish pub session is a fairly recent phenomenon, which started in London in the 1940's. Irish trad musicians working in London were in digs and could not meet up at home or any of the other traditional venues, and so started playing music in Pubs. Sessions rapidly spread to other areas of Irish migrant labour, Liverpool, Manchester, Birmingham, Newcastle to mention but a few. In this process non-traditional (for the time) instruments like the Bodhran (borrowed from the English Morris tradition) and Guitar that was of cause ubiquitous, found their way into the Tradition.
Remember that most of the instruments used in Irish traditional music did not originate there. The Uillean Pipes came from the lowlands of Scotland in the late 18th century were they were called Pastoral Pipes and a new invention. They did not reach there present form until the early 20th century in Chicago where they were adapted to play in vaudeville and moved into their present key of D. Violins came from the continent. The flute came in, in the early 19th, and free reed instruments in the late 19th century.
As to the tunes used in Irish trad dance music many are variants of tunes played in England Scotland, and Wales, and many of the dance forms came from the continent.
All traditions change, adopting new forms of playing.
This is not to mention the regional variations throughout Ireland it's self.
Many modern tune sets come from recordings.
The point is that though the musical practice is not ancient, there is a vital and vibrant repertoire of music still being regularly played in Pubs all round the world, and the music is doing a very ancient job, allowing us to celebrate our collective humanity and appreciate each others skills.
All the best PP
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: what defines traditional?
So Irish music ain't Irish. ha ha, brilliant. That'll teach 'em
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: what defines traditional?
You make some good points, Pied Piper. But I'll have to pick at one of them - I was a morris dancer for nearly 20 years with a very traditional side in England and got involved in researching various aspects of The Morris. Alongside this, I began to learn the bodhrán in our local ITM session.
And I can state pretty confidently that the bodhrán was never anything to do with The Morris - the most traditional morris accompaniment being the pipe-and-tabor: a three-holed pipe and small snare drum struck with a regular drumstick and played for dancing since the middle ages. But I do agree that the bodhrán's place in ITM seems to be fairly recent, though I do have a recording of John Reynolds accompanying a flute in 1927. The playing's very straightforward and fairly unornamented.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by greenman
Re: what defines traditional?
Hi Greenman.
I'd like to hear that recording, is it comercialy available?
All the best PP
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: what defines traditional?
Hello PP!
Yes, it's a track on a 2-cd "Pure Bodhrán - The Definitive Collection" on Big Beat Music BBM 001. Happy listening!
# Posted on May 30th 2003 by greenman
Re: what defines traditional?
thanks for the replys, i understand now that you cant really define taditional, anyway the tunes i played were hartigans leaving and another similar one that i have no name for, that narrow minded man was a person called james o'grady!
# Posted on May 31st 2003 by Liam "banjo" Vernon
Re: what defines traditional?
there's a double CD called Pure Bodhrán? .... crikey
# Posted on June 1st 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: what defines traditional?
You haven't got your copy yet? :0)
# Posted on June 2nd 2003 by greenman