Last night we had mostly backers.*
It only worked if we played the most common reels or hornpipes & only the very standard double jigs. Sometimes I think tunes go in 1 ear & out the other. Get each tune in your head.
A good backer can keep the tempo steady & not be thrown off by a lilting rhythm.
Is that too difficult?
All tunes treated differently, period. Listen to the tune... the type of tune (jig, reel etc.) and the key ... that's just half the battle. learn them or learn to sense the structure of each individual tune quickly, or don't play along, fade out or don't get in. A fiddler won't play on a tune they don't know (some will, so we can fiddle bash when they do too), likewise a guitar or zouk or backer shouldn't either.
I have no reason to bash someone who does listen to the tune, has good rhythm, & plays their instrument well. Even if the instrument is a shakey egg.
A good musician understands what backing is & isn't.
It really sucks when too many people are backing. The melody is what matters ~ Irish tradwise ~ but a GOOD BACKER is a GOOD MUSICIAN!
If I turn up to a session and there are lots of backers, my case stays cloed and I have been known to leave a session if suddenly three guitars turn up and get their egos out
At a recent session we had 4 singer-guitarists unexpectedly turn up (not pre-arranged, thankfully), resulting in sing-arounds taking up a lot of playing time. Rather less than satisfactory for the rest of us, a group which included 3 relative fiddle beginners and a very fine fiddler who had driven 45 miles to get to the session.
Bliss I cannot even comprehend an Irish music session doing that. What the hell ~ I'll take the bait.
What is the one melody instrument (or singer)?
Does your session play all the dance rhythms of ITM ~ Reels, Double Jigs, Single Jigs, Slip Jigs, Hornpipes, Marches, Aires, & Waltzes?
Speaking as someone who has been either an accompanist or sideman or backup musician (or "backer" to use TheMuse's term) for more years than is good for anyone, I would like to say that I completely agree with TheMuse's comments on this thread about "backing" no matter what type of tune is being played by whoever is leading the session (I play piano and bass--both acoustic and electric). I prefer accompanying other musicians instead of trying to play lead because I seem to have a natural talent or ability for accompanying.
When some other local musicians started an Irish Session here in Arkansas in 1995, I asked if I could join them and participate in the Sessions. They asked me which instruments I played and when I told them I played piano and bass, I was asked to bring my genuine imitation piano (a Roland EP-90 Digital Piano) to the Irish Sessions as my contribution to the general cacophony.
Since there were some good lead musicians participating in the local sessions when they started, all I had to do was to accompany the other musicians. I did have to lead the session one evening when none of the musicians showed up who usually led the session. I did not enjoy leading the session and am glad that I haven't had to do that again.
lazyhound, If we = fiddle/flute players expect backers to truly "back" and not get their egos out, I really don't see why we can't occasionally "back" singer/guitarists? I'ts fun to improvise to a song.
I have lost count of the number of "backers" who have just finished playing major chords in a minor tune, and I asked "What key did we finish in?".
They all gave me a blank look.
"... we = fiddle/flute players ... I really don't see why we can't occasionally "back" singer/guitarists? I'ts fun to improvise to a song. "
Mina - That's fine if the singer is happy with it. But for it to work well, each musician needs to be listening to every other musician, not just listening to the singer or the guitarist.
Thanks Mina, you may have hit on a solution to the problem we had at that session a week ago!
A bit of polytonality a la Bartok perhaps wouldn't go amiss - my fiddle teacher sometimes goes through one or two of the Bartok violin duets with me for sight-reading practice at the end of a lesson.
Exactly, Granama, you are supposed to listen to everybody else as much as possible and not just whomever happens to be leading the group. Sessions work much better when you are able to listen to the rest of the musicians as well as the lead player and yourself also.
Judicious and careful use of polytonality and minor chords in major tunes or major chords in minor tunes will work sometimes (speaking from experience). Then there are the modal tunes which you occasionally encounter when playing this music.
By "lead player" I mean someone who plays one of the more traditional lead instruments such as fiddle, flute, button accordion, uillean pipes, etc. who can actually do a halfway decent job of leading a session.
Geoffwright... the problem is too many backer/accompanists whatever the word, try to get by with as little work as possible and much guess work. They give other backers/accompanists who do the work and learn the tunes and spend years practicing and picking up the little nuances and learn how to treat each tune differently a bad name.
I think it's a losing battle sometimes, and can talk a blue streak about this as my former posts attest to, but it doesn't sink in except for to a few people. We can't require people, backers or melody players, to sort of pass a test if they are allowed to play, an open session is just that, and if the person is truly disruptive they should be told to at least stop playing on what they don't know... but that goes for fiddlers, box players etc. too. The only solution is to have a session by invite only, or a house session. Until then you will get backers who don't know the key, never mind the tune or tune structure, and you will also get whistles, flutes, concertinas, fiddles, and God help us pipes who just noodle and hunt and peck for the tune and ruin it. I try to never take it too seriously at any open session unless truly disruptive. It social I guess, can be fun, if not all the time, and if it falls apart you can always go drink at the bar and forget about it!
I think it is good to have open sessions. It is equally good to play sessions where every player has the tune in their head. Or will listen carefully on new & unfamiliar tunes.
Open sessions have an ebb & flow. Sometimes everyone is playing together.
Other times you have to . . . "go drink at the bar & forget about it."
Here's to strong melodies.
Cheers
Muse... I like them too, I like how you never know for sure who will walk in, which can make life interesting. If the standard of music is great one time and not the next, that happens, but it's OK. If a session is truly horrible with guitar bashers and noodling fiddlers all the time, you really can remove yourself if it's not fun and go to a different one.
irisnevins I am a bit confused why the assumption on this thread is that I do not enjoy my session.
I never suggested it was horrible.
Usually we have a number of melody instruments.
Last Tuesday happened to be a majority of bodhrans & guitars. I even said everything was grand on reels & double jigs. Everyone seems to have those tunes well ingrained
Try to play a slide ~ & the backing is lacking.
I am on top of this though. We have weathered worse.
Thank you but I will keep my session.
A "lead player" is someone who has actually led (or "leads') a session instead of a "tin soldier" or some other military type person. Nor am I talking about "heavy metal" or "light metal" (lite metal?) either.
(do not take this comment seriously.--it is meant to be sarcastic with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Last night we had mostly backers.*
It only worked if we played the most common reels or hornpipes & only the very standard double jigs. Sometimes I think tunes go in 1 ear & out the other. Get each tune in your head.
A good backer can keep the tempo steady & not be thrown off by a lilting rhythm.
Is that too difficult?
*This is not guitar/bodhran bashings.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Backer bashing?
Bring it on ...
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
What's a backer?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by bogman
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
a||: jig-is-a jig-is-a | jig-is-a jig-is-a | jig-is-a jig-is-a | jig-is-a jig-is-a |
| jig-is-a jig-is-a | jig-is-a jig-is-a | jig-is-a jig-is-a | jig-is-a jig :||
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Bren
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
All tunes treated differently, period. Listen to the tune... the type of tune (jig, reel etc.) and the key ... that's just half the battle. learn them or learn to sense the structure of each individual tune quickly, or don't play along, fade out or don't get in. A fiddler won't play on a tune they don't know (some will, so we can fiddle bash when they do too), likewise a guitar or zouk or backer shouldn't either.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by irisnevins
Bring it on?
I have no reason to bash someone who does listen to the tune, has good rhythm, & plays their instrument well. Even if the instrument is a shakey egg.
A good musician understands what backing is & isn't.
It really sucks when too many people are backing. The melody is what matters ~ Irish tradwise ~ but a GOOD BACKER is a GOOD MUSICIAN!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
If I turn up to a session and there are lots of backers, my case stays cloed and I have been known to leave a session if suddenly three guitars turn up and get their egos out
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Flutey is welcome any and every where of course
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Did you say get their eggs out?
The thing is do you get the tune(s) in your head? For a more opportune session?
Nice Bren. It's better than mine. So against better judgement ~
is>a|(3 jig-is-a (3 jig-is-a (3 jig-is-a Jig_|It>is (3 not-a-slide (3 Not-a-reel (3not-an-aire|no>it's-a>horn pipe_ _ | no>it's-a>Horn Pipe_ _||
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
At a recent session we had 4 singer-guitarists unexpectedly turn up (not pre-arranged, thankfully), resulting in sing-arounds taking up a lot of playing time. Rather less than satisfactory for the rest of us, a group which included 3 relative fiddle beginners and a very fine fiddler who had driven 45 miles to get to the session.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
As stated elsewhere our session is now all backers bar one. But the standard is very high.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
all backers and a banjo.
I'm sorry bliss, but no matter how high the standard. it's not for me
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
I could've sworn it was | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig | JIG - jig |
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by grego
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
llig: "I'm sorry bliss"
Now I can die in peace...
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by grego
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Bliss I cannot even comprehend an Irish music session doing that. What the hell ~ I'll take the bait.
What is the one melody instrument (or singer)?
Does your session play all the dance rhythms of ITM ~ Reels, Double Jigs, Single Jigs, Slip Jigs, Hornpipes, Marches, Aires, & Waltzes?
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by TheMuse
My Bad
Sorry ~ Aires are not dance rhythms.
In the modern sense. You have to excuse me.
I live on the west coast.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Airs?
I live on the west coast also, Galway.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by gooseinthenettles
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Speaking as someone who has been either an accompanist or sideman or backup musician (or "backer" to use TheMuse's term) for more years than is good for anyone, I would like to say that I completely agree with TheMuse's comments on this thread about "backing" no matter what type of tune is being played by whoever is leading the session (I play piano and bass--both acoustic and electric). I prefer accompanying other musicians instead of trying to play lead because I seem to have a natural talent or ability for accompanying.
When some other local musicians started an Irish Session here in Arkansas in 1995, I asked if I could join them and participate in the Sessions. They asked me which instruments I played and when I told them I played piano and bass, I was asked to bring my genuine imitation piano (a Roland EP-90 Digital Piano) to the Irish Sessions as my contribution to the general cacophony.
Since there were some good lead musicians participating in the local sessions when they started, all I had to do was to accompany the other musicians. I did have to lead the session one evening when none of the musicians showed up who usually led the session. I did not enjoy leading the session and am glad that I haven't had to do that again.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
lazyhound, If we = fiddle/flute players expect backers to truly "back" and not get their egos out, I really don't see why we can't occasionally "back" singer/guitarists? I'ts fun to improvise to a song.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Mina the Fiddler
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
ajigisajigisajig
I have lost count of the number of "backers" who have just finished playing major chords in a minor tune, and I asked "What key did we finish in?".
They all gave me a blank look.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
"... we = fiddle/flute players ... I really don't see why we can't occasionally "back" singer/guitarists? I'ts fun to improvise to a song. "
Mina - That's fine if the singer is happy with it. But for it to work well, each musician needs to be listening to every other musician, not just listening to the singer or the guitarist.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by granama
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Thanks Mina, you may have hit on a solution to the problem we had at that session a week ago!
- my fiddle teacher sometimes goes through one or two of the Bartok violin duets with me for sight-reading practice at the end of a lesson.
A bit of polytonality a la Bartok perhaps wouldn't go amiss
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Exactly, Granama, you are supposed to listen to everybody else as much as possible and not just whomever happens to be leading the group. Sessions work much better when you are able to listen to the rest of the musicians as well as the lead player and yourself also.
Judicious and careful use of polytonality and minor chords in major tunes or major chords in minor tunes will work sometimes (speaking from experience). Then there are the modal tunes which you occasionally encounter when playing this music.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by fauxcelt
Backers who think?
Lead Player???!!!***
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
By "lead player" I mean someone who plays one of the more traditional lead instruments such as fiddle, flute, button accordion, uillean pipes, etc. who can actually do a halfway decent job of leading a session.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
You forgot about my all round talents Mr Llig but I appreciate your sentiments.
And it is not a "real" session anymore, more a musical night, but very enjoyable.
# Posted on April 4th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
"Lead Player???!!!***"
You mean, like, *heavy metal*?
There's no lead players at my sessions, just tin soldiers.
# Posted on April 4th 2008 by granama
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Geoffwright... the problem is too many backer/accompanists whatever the word, try to get by with as little work as possible and much guess work. They give other backers/accompanists who do the work and learn the tunes and spend years practicing and picking up the little nuances and learn how to treat each tune differently a bad name.
I think it's a losing battle sometimes, and can talk a blue streak about this as my former posts attest to, but it doesn't sink in except for to a few people. We can't require people, backers or melody players, to sort of pass a test if they are allowed to play, an open session is just that, and if the person is truly disruptive they should be told to at least stop playing on what they don't know... but that goes for fiddlers, box players etc. too. The only solution is to have a session by invite only, or a house session. Until then you will get backers who don't know the key, never mind the tune or tune structure, and you will also get whistles, flutes, concertinas, fiddles, and God help us pipes who just noodle and hunt and peck for the tune and ruin it. I try to never take it too seriously at any open session unless truly disruptive. It social I guess, can be fun, if not all the time, and if it falls apart you can always go drink at the bar and forget about it!
# Posted on April 4th 2008 by irisnevins
A jig is a jig
I think it is good to have open sessions. It is equally good to play sessions where every player has the tune in their head. Or will listen carefully on new & unfamiliar tunes.
Open sessions have an ebb & flow. Sometimes everyone is playing together.
Other times you have to . . . "go drink at the bar & forget about it."
Here's to strong melodies.
Cheers
# Posted on April 4th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
Muse... I like them too, I like how you never know for sure who will walk in, which can make life interesting. If the standard of music is great one time and not the next, that happens, but it's OK. If a session is truly horrible with guitar bashers and noodling fiddlers all the time, you really can remove yourself if it's not fun and go to a different one.
# Posted on April 5th 2008 by irisnevins
Re: Backers Jig ~ slide
irisnevins I am a bit confused why the assumption on this thread is that I do not enjoy my session.
I never suggested it was horrible.
Usually we have a number of melody instruments.
Last Tuesday happened to be a majority of bodhrans & guitars. I even said everything was grand on reels & double jigs. Everyone seems to have those tunes well ingrained
Try to play a slide ~ & the backing is lacking.
I am on top of this though. We have weathered worse.
Thank you but I will keep my session.
# Posted on April 5th 2008 by TheMuse
Re: Backers who think a jig is a jig is a jig
A "lead player" is someone who has actually led (or "leads') a session instead of a "tin soldier" or some other military type person. Nor am I talking about "heavy metal" or "light metal" (lite metal?) either.
(do not take this comment seriously.--it is meant to be sarcastic with tongue firmly planted in cheek)
# Posted on April 7th 2008 by fauxcelt