Heey,
There´s this lovely song, which I would like to sing.. But there is only one problem: It is in gaelic, which I don´t speak, and I can´t even read the lyrics xD So my question to you guys: please, could you translate the following lyrics to phonetics??
Ailein duinn
Gura mise tha fo e/islean,
Moch 's a' mhadainn is mi 'g e/irigh,
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
Ma 's e cluasag dhut a' ghainneamh,
Ma 's e leabaidh dhut an fheamainn,
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
Ma 's e 'n t-iasg do choinnlean geala,
Ma 's e na ro\in do luchd-faire,
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
Dh'o\lainn deoch ge boil le ca\ch e,
De dh'fhuil do choim 's tu 'n de/idh do bhathadh,
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
on the single, they sing:
Gura mise tha fo eislean
Moch sa mhaduinn is mi g'eirigh
O hi shiubhlainn leat
Hi ri bho, ho rinn o ho
Ailein Duinn, o hi shiubhlainn leat
Ma 's'en clusag dhuit a ghaineamh
Ma 'se leabaidh dhut an gheamainn
Ma 's en t-iasg do choinlean geala
Ma 's na Righ do luchd-faire
Don't know if anyone will do this, aine.
It could be very subjective trying to put Gaelic into phonetic English so that other interpretations result in the same sounds. I'm sure people would love to help, but they may feel very reluctant to do that sort of translation.
Understand what you are asking...the sounds in Irish are very different to English aren't they. English is quite a new language compared to Irish.
If it's Scots Gaelic, I would say that Irish speakers will not want to translate it to phonetic English, even though they will likely understand the words.
Tough call on this, Aine.
Sean Lead Liath, you are a prince. very interesting, both the translation/phonetics and the fact that you didn't say why it could'nt be done, you just did it.
Those who referenced difficulty in translation do have a very valid point, though. The translation I did is quite literal. I did not seek to capture the lyric expressiveness of the Gaelic. For example, my translation of the first two lines :
It is I who is sad
As I arise early in the morning
renders the literal meaning of the Gaelic. To capture the connotation and the nuance in English, however, would require a significant depature from the literal meaning - to wit - something along the lines of :
The grey light of each cold dawn
Brings deep sorrow to my soul
No poet I, though & I think that the phonetics were the young lady's primary interest.
Good on you for helping the lassie Sean, but I'm afraid some of your phonetics aren't correct for Scot's Gaelic. I don't have the time myself to do anything for a couple of days or so, but I'll try and find a link when I get a moment to help Aine out.
Sean, does pronunciation of vowels in either short or long form in the English phonetics make any difference to meaning of the word in Gaelic or Irish, or any difference to 'understandability' to a Gaelic or Irish listener?
That would be a yes there Duijera, for example sean means old and is pronounced shan. Seán is a mans name and is pronounced shawn. the difference is the fada on the a.
'A' without a fada(short a) is said like the A in cat, with a fada (long a - á) its said like the A in call.
short e is like the e in pet. long e is pronounced like ey in grey
short i is like the i in bit. long i sounds like e in she.
short o is like the o from. long o is like the o in poem.
Thanks, session savage.
What about English speakers interpreting the phonetics like this:
Short 'a' as in apple; long 'a' as in aim
short 'e' as in pet; long 'e' as in peat;
short 'i' as in bit; long 'i' as in bite;
short 'o' as in from; long 'o' as in poem;
short 'u' as in hut; long 'u' as in unique.
Wouldn't it be the case that if an English speaker applied those rules to the phonetics then their recitation of the Gaelic or Irish could sound vastly different than intended, or unintelligible for some words, or in fact that the meaning changes?
e.g. if without a fada, the English speaker uses long A, that is, as in 'aim', will that word be understood, or the meaning might become something totally different, or maybe the speaker sounding a bit strange, to say the least.
The other complication could be of course, that the English speaker might not have English as their first language, so their vowel accent might be sourced in their own first language, with different pronunciation rules yet again.
e.g. with the word 'gura' , the first word of the first line, sean has it phonetically that the pronunciation is 'gurra' (short 'u' following English pronunciation), rather than 'goora' or 'giura' as an approximation of the long 'u'. Sean has it covered there, it seems, but won't the pronunciation he intends depend on the reader interpreting that sound following English pronunciation? How would someone without English pronunciation rules pronounce it.
Wow, getting a bit complicated, I know, but is it a problem?
And then there's the issue of syllable stress and the schwa sound in English.
Take for example the word 'islean' (phonetic 'eeshlan' by Sean)
Depending on the syllable stress there, the English-first-language speaker will pronounce it differently, let alone English-second-language speakers who will likely have the opposite syllable stress, especially European language speakers.
'eeshlan' could be interpreted by an English speaker as
"EESHlan" with the final 'a' disappearing entirely because it is the unstressed syllable schwa, or alternately, 'eeshLAN' in which case they might use either a short 'a' or maybe horribly, long 'a' as in 'eeshlane'. Would the word then be understood by the Gaelic or Irish speaking listeners.
English-second-language speakers could well have a range of other pronunciation and syllable stress options.
Even consonants are creating problems because they can have more than one pronunciation.
To create an infallibale phonetic conversion system based around english would be impossible I think, especially since there are some sounds in Irish that simply dont exist in english.. except when your clearing phlem from your throat.
No, Duijera, the only way to read Irish is learn it.
You can get really good books with CD's which teach you how to read Irish... even if you cant understand it.
Aine, at the very least it looks like you will need to apply the vowel pronunciation rules listed there by session savage, unless of course they are different in Scots Gaelic.
If you use English pronunciation vowel pronunciation rules, the sound, and maybe even the meaning, could be very different than what it should be in Gaelic. Consonants and syllable stress - don't know.
Man, do I ever regret my ref above to “The poor girl’s simple request”
Let me clarify what I did. As Ron P correctly points out, I am not expert in Scots phonetics, so what I did was to render the Gaelic as it would be pronounced in the Western Irish dialect, which is the one I speak.
The language of the song is simple, & comprehensible (clearly, as I could read it) across Scots & Irish, so that my rendition, while it would sound just a little odd to the Irish ear, would be understandable.
I rendered, for example “‘s tu ‘n déidh do bhathadh” as ““sthoo nyee du vawha”, which is how I would (approximately) pronounce the Irish rendition - “‘s tú i ndiaidh do bhátha”. I did this (Ron P – please comment) in the knowledge that the Scots pronunciation is probably more akin to “sthuh nyay du vaaaha”. (The “d” in my phonetic “du”, in each case, being more akin to that in Homer Simpson’s “Doh” than the “d” in the English “Dog”.)
Pronunciation of vowels differs between the 4 dialects of Irish and as between those 4 and Scots. To take a simple example, your pet cat, in Kerry (South Irish dialect) is, more or less, a “Cauth”. In Connemara (West Irish dialect), she is emphatically a “Cuth”. People get confused when learning Gaelic because accenting vowels (or following vowels with duplicated consonants) dramatically alters the pronunciation. This is really an artefact of the written language. Similar occurs in English, but of course without accents – eg – Warsaw is the POLISH capital vs. to POLISH one’s shoes. Going back to the dialects – as a VERY general comment – vowels that are extended by accenting (in the written language) are pronounced unaccented in Northern Irish and in Scots, & AFAIK the accents are in many instances not written in Scots. Hence the conditional “Más” (which I would pronounce “Mawss”) would be pronounced “Maahs” by a Northern Irish or Scots speaker. I don’t think Scots takes the accent, & I also think (as Aine renders) that the word, as written in Scots, is split “Ma’s” for “Ma is” – which is actually older Irish usage too.
I didn’t actually correct for grammar, but I suspect that there are some errors in Aine’s rendition. Taking the phrase – “Ma’s e na róin do luchd-faire” – In Irish, the word “e” (which would be accented) is singular, whereas the reference to the seals (na róin) is plural. The Irish rendition, corrected for the plural, is “Más iad na róin do lucht faire”. Also, I’d be v. surprised if there is no vocative in Scots, so the girl in the song should correctly address her young man as “A Ailein Dhuinn”, or omit the initial “A” and, in writing - “ ‘Ailein Dhuinn ”. Ron P ?
& one last one - re Duijera Dubh's question re syllabic emphasis This varies very considerably across dialects -
"Tá sé cineál fionnuar amuigh” (It's kind of cool outside) -
Western Irish dialect places emphasis on the first syllable, hence - again using approximate phonetics
"Thaw shay KINNaul FINNoor amuh"
But South Irish dialect places emphasis on the second syllable, almost subsuming the first syllable -
"Thaw shay k'NAUL f'n'OOR amuh"
The written rendition - "Tá sé cineál fionnuar amuigh” remains identical, similar to my previous example - the writteh "Cat" being pronounced "Cauth" in the South and "Cuth" in the West - even with no accents.
In the past, on the times that I have tried to learn a little Irish, I found it confusing because I missed it that I needed to learn the long and short vowel sounds in Irish. They are different to the long and short vowel sounds in English.
Then there's the broad and slender consonant sounds in Irish as well, and a load of other things as well.
So, I guess that's about the long and short of it.
Now, Sean, I have about fifty songs in Irish that I am looking for phonetic translations for...how about it?
Consonants - Yup - another web of complexity, without even mentioning that the language has nominative, vocative, accusative, genitive and dative forms of the noun, which nouns can be masculine or feminine.
50 phonetic renditions - Hmmmmmmm..........I'd love to help, but the day job gets in the way.........The thought does occur that one easy way to address this would be to get an Irish speaker to read the songs, slowly, in to a tape recorder for you, then you could transcribe yourself, with phonetics that would be meaningful to you.
BTW - If you're interested in meaning in addition to phonetics - Don't be too surprised if a very fluent Irish speaker - even a native speaker - needs to consult a dictionary from time to time. A lot of Irish songs are old - 18th & 19th centuries - and feature relatively obscure words that have long since passed from modern usage. The same holds for grammatical constructs. The dative case, in particular, was simplified some time in the '50s or '60s - around about the time that the old Irish script was abandoned in favour of the standard European script.
I’ll shut up after this – and this is strictly for hard-core interested parties only.
Old Irish poetry, and songs written in the poetic medium, feature a formalism of juxtaposition of narrow and broad vowels. There are, for example, at least three “Ay” sounds in Irish. One is simple for English speakers – “Ay” as in “Hay”, written in Irish as “é”. Another is a kind of combination of “”Ay” and “Ah”; this is written as “éa”. The third is a broad throaty sound, that I could not even try to render phonetically. It is written “ao” – “Laoch”, “Slaodaibh”.
Consider the second two lines of this extract from “Cill Mhuire” –
“Ansiúd a bhíonn tionnlach mionchlúir is faoileáin,
An chéirseach, sraoich-chearca ‘gus druide,
Ar ghéagaibh ‘na slaodaibh ag géilleadh fé bhláth”
The construction is quite intentionally a play on increasing broadness of “Ay” vowel sounds. The narrow “é” in “Chéirseach” is juxtaposed with the broader “éa” of “Ghéagaibh”. The intermediate “Aoi” of “Sraoich” is juxtaposed with the broad “Ao” in “Slaodaibh”, then, for effect, two narrow “é” sounds follow in “géilleadh” and “fé”, in order to emphasise the termination of the phrase by the very broad vowel of “Bhláth”, which is an “Aw” type sound (but much broader than the English “Aw”). The “Aw” is of course picked up later on in the song.
There are other patterns there – eg - the predominance of “U”-type sounds in the first line, the undertones of “I” sounds in the second line, and, of course, the “Ay” sounds leading up to the culminating “Aw” in the final line.
Poets took years to learn how to do this stuff. Very few modern speakers, other than native speakers, can actually make the subtly different sounds.
So, them as sez that writing stuff phonetically certainly have a point in stating that a lot is lost in so doing, & not just with regard to the imprecision of pronunciation.
I meant - final sentence - "Them as sez that writing stuff phonetically loses a lot certainly have a point, & not just with regard to the imprecision of ostensibly phonetic renditions of pronunciation."
Apologies for not getting back re this sooner - I've had lots going on the past few days.
Aine, personally, I absolutely hate phonetics... as was pointed out by Duijera Dubh, phonetics can be very subjective - though I believe that there is a standard somewhere, but I don't really know anything about that, so I'll leave to others who know better. Anyway, rather than use phonetics, I'd advise you listen very carefully to someone with a sufficient knowledge of Gaelic singing the song, and copy them. Here's a link to Karen Matheson singing it:
Having said I'd steer clear of phonetics, I'll contradict myself a wee bit, as there are a couple of things that should be highlighted, as they are very different in Gaelic pronunciation, from the Irish: "Moch 's a' mhadainn" would be pronunced "Moch sa vadeen". "Ch" as in "loch", NOT "lock"; also note that "mh" has a "v" sound, NOT a "w".
Sean, re the vocative case - yes your correct, but I think it's been dropped for poetic reasons here. I'd be surprised if words aren't truncated and omissions made in Irish songs as well.
Good luck with the song Aine, and again, good on you Sean - you're obviously very knowledgeable about languages, whereas I'm but a learner.
Sound advice from Ron P - echoing mine to Duidjera - listening is a damn' site better than attempting to write phonetics.
There is a standard phonetic alphabet, full of weird symbols. I can't read it, & I dunno anyone who can, other than professional linguists, which I'm not.
For completeness, the "ch" sound in Irish is also actually, - as per Ron P's - that of "Loch", rather than the "ck" as I wrote - "ck" is how learners usually pronounce it until they learn how to pronouhnce the gutturals (which latter, on reflection, should be no trouble to a Dutch gal !).
"mh" in Irish is pronounced "w" ("sa mhaidin", "an-mholadh") or as a kind of compounded "w" and "v" if followed by a "u" ("mo mhúirnín", "A Mhuiris") if it occurs at the start of a word, and as "v" if it occurs at the end of a word ("Niamh" , "maíomh"). If it occurs in the middle - usually after an "a" or an "o" - it changes the sound of the "a" / "o" to something akin to the English "ow" as in "How".
I doubt that the vocative in Irish will last much longer. Only native speakers still use it, & even they not always.
Anyway, I'm getting altogether too like the little girl in the story about penguins. She was asked in school to read a book about penguins & write a critique / synopsis - Her effort commenced - "This book tells me more about penguins than I want to know"
To all who speak Gealic 2
To all who speak Gealic 2
Heey,
There´s this lovely song, which I would like to sing.. But there is only one problem: It is in gaelic, which I don´t speak, and I can´t even read the lyrics xD So my question to you guys: please, could you translate the following lyrics to phonetics??
Ailein duinn
Gura mise tha fo e/islean,
Moch 's a' mhadainn is mi 'g e/irigh,
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
Ma 's e cluasag dhut a' ghainneamh,
Ma 's e leabaidh dhut an fheamainn,
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
Ma 's e 'n t-iasg do choinnlean geala,
Ma 's e na ro\in do luchd-faire,
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
Dh'o\lainn deoch ge boil le ca\ch e,
De dh'fhuil do choim 's tu 'n de/idh do bhathadh,
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
on the single, they sing:
Gura mise tha fo eislean
Moch sa mhaduinn is mi g'eirigh
O hi shiubhlainn leat
Hi ri bho, ho rinn o ho
Ailein Duinn, o hi shiubhlainn leat
Ma 's'en clusag dhuit a ghaineamh
Ma 'se leabaidh dhut an gheamainn
Ma 's en t-iasg do choinlean geala
Ma 's na Righ do luchd-faire
Thanx so much!
Love, Aine
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by ainekenaz
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Don't know if anyone will do this, aine.
It could be very subjective trying to put Gaelic into phonetic English so that other interpretations result in the same sounds. I'm sure people would love to help, but they may feel very reluctant to do that sort of translation.
Understand what you are asking...the sounds in Irish are very different to English aren't they. English is quite a new language compared to Irish.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
This is Scots Gaelic. It should be transcribed by a Scots Gaelic speaker.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Sinocal
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
I would give it a go but I'm pretty sure thats in scots gaelic, and although its similar I wouldnt know how similar.
If it is in scots gaelic its amazing how similar to Irish it is. If its not in scots gaelic its a mess
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by session savage
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
As Sinocal says - it´s Scots Gaelic.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Björn
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
If it's Scots Gaelic, I would say that Irish speakers will not want to translate it to phonetic English, even though they will likely understand the words.
Tough call on this, Aine.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Here you go Aine -
Phonetics & translation below.
It is indeed Scots Gaelic, but easily accessible to an Irish Gaelic speaker like myself.
Gura mise tha fo e/islean, (It is I who is sad)
Phonetic - Gurra misha haw fo eeshlan
Moch 's a' mhadainn is mi 'g e/irigh, (as I arise early in the morning)
Phonetic - Muck is a waddyin iss me ag ayrie
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat, (O, Hee – I would walk with you)
Phonetic - O hee hewlinn lyath
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\, (Not sensical – chorus)
Phonetic - Hi reevo ho roovee
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Phonetic - Hi reevo ho reen o ho
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat. (Brown-haired Alan, O Hee, I’would walk with you)
Phonetic - Alyan dinn, o hee hewlinn lyath
Ma 's e cluasag dhut a' ghainneamh, (If sand is a pillow for you)
Phonetic - Maws ay clooasag ghwit a ghanniv
Ma 's e leabaidh dhut an fheamainn, (If seaweed is your bed)
Phonetic - Maws ay lyabba ghwit an amman
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
As above
Ma 's e 'n t-iasg do choinnlean geala, (If fish are your bright candles)
Phonetic - Maws ay un teesk do hwinnlun gyala
Ma 's e na ro\in do luchd-faire, (If the seals are your watchman)
Phonetic - Maws ay na rowin du lukt fyara
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
As above
Dh'o\lainn deoch ge boil le ca\ch e, (I would drink a drink, though the world would disapprove)
Phonetic - Dole-hinn dyuk ge bwil le cawk ay
De dh'fhuil do choim 's tu 'n de/idh do bhathadh, (Of your hearts’s blood after you drowned)
Phonetic - Ded ill du hwim sthoo nyee du vawha
O\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ ru bhi\,
Hi\ ri bho\ ho\ rionn o ho,
Ailein duinn, o\ hi\ shiu\bhlainn leat.
As above
(There is really no English sound toapproximate the “Gh” The closest I can think of is the “Y” sound in “Yogi Bear”, if you aspirate it heavily)
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Lads, lads - Why were yiz all so negative about the poor girl's simple request ?
Minja - Aine - I hope you're not disappointed. Not sure I can myself resonate to vampire love-songs
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Sean Lead Liath, you are a prince. very interesting, both the translation/phonetics and the fact that you didn't say why it could'nt be done, you just did it.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by full measure
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Thank you for the kind words.
& I think that the phonetics were the young lady's primary interest.
Those who referenced difficulty in translation do have a very valid point, though. The translation I did is quite literal. I did not seek to capture the lyric expressiveness of the Gaelic. For example, my translation of the first two lines :
It is I who is sad
As I arise early in the morning
renders the literal meaning of the Gaelic. To capture the connotation and the nuance in English, however, would require a significant depature from the literal meaning - to wit - something along the lines of :
The grey light of each cold dawn
Brings deep sorrow to my soul
No poet I, though
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Good on you for helping the lassie Sean, but I'm afraid some of your phonetics aren't correct for Scot's Gaelic. I don't have the time myself to do anything for a couple of days or so, but I'll try and find a link when I get a moment to help Aine out.
Ron
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Thanks, Ron. The phonetics are indeed Irish, rather than Scots Gaelic. They are of course approximate also.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Sean, does pronunciation of vowels in either short or long form in the English phonetics make any difference to meaning of the word in Gaelic or Irish, or any difference to 'understandability' to a Gaelic or Irish listener?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
That would be a yes there Duijera, for example sean means old and is pronounced shan. Seán is a mans name and is pronounced shawn. the difference is the fada on the a.
'A' without a fada(short a) is said like the A in cat, with a fada (long a - á) its said like the A in call.
short e is like the e in pet. long e is pronounced like ey in grey
short i is like the i in bit. long i sounds like e in she.
short o is like the o from. long o is like the o in poem.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by session savage
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Thanks, session savage.
What about English speakers interpreting the phonetics like this:
Short 'a' as in apple; long 'a' as in aim
short 'e' as in pet; long 'e' as in peat;
short 'i' as in bit; long 'i' as in bite;
short 'o' as in from; long 'o' as in poem;
short 'u' as in hut; long 'u' as in unique.
Wouldn't it be the case that if an English speaker applied those rules to the phonetics then their recitation of the Gaelic or Irish could sound vastly different than intended, or unintelligible for some words, or in fact that the meaning changes?
e.g. if without a fada, the English speaker uses long A, that is, as in 'aim', will that word be understood, or the meaning might become something totally different, or maybe the speaker sounding a bit strange, to say the least.
Have I got this right?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
The other complication could be of course, that the English speaker might not have English as their first language, so their vowel accent might be sourced in their own first language, with different pronunciation rules yet again.
e.g. with the word 'gura' , the first word of the first line, sean has it phonetically that the pronunciation is 'gurra' (short 'u' following English pronunciation), rather than 'goora' or 'giura' as an approximation of the long 'u'. Sean has it covered there, it seems, but won't the pronunciation he intends depend on the reader interpreting that sound following English pronunciation? How would someone without English pronunciation rules pronounce it.
Wow, getting a bit complicated, I know, but is it a problem?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
And then there's the issue of syllable stress and the schwa sound in English.
Take for example the word 'islean' (phonetic 'eeshlan' by Sean)
Depending on the syllable stress there, the English-first-language speaker will pronounce it differently, let alone English-second-language speakers who will likely have the opposite syllable stress, especially European language speakers.
'eeshlan' could be interpreted by an English speaker as
"EESHlan" with the final 'a' disappearing entirely because it is the unstressed syllable schwa, or alternately, 'eeshLAN' in which case they might use either a short 'a' or maybe horribly, long 'a' as in 'eeshlane'. Would the word then be understood by the Gaelic or Irish speaking listeners.
English-second-language speakers could well have a range of other pronunciation and syllable stress options.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
"Have I got this right?".... yep.
Wow, getting a bit complicated, I know, but is it a problem?... yep
Take for example a simple sentence...
Is mise Seán.. pronounced properly ...
iss (like hiss) mish-a shawn (like lawn)
Pronounced incorrectly
ice micey ceeayn.... flippin mental lol.
Even consonants are creating problems because they can have more than one pronunciation.
To create an infallibale phonetic conversion system based around english would be impossible I think, especially since there are some sounds in Irish that simply dont exist in english.. except when your clearing phlem from your throat.
No, Duijera, the only way to read Irish is learn it.
You can get really good books with CD's which teach you how to read Irish... even if you cant understand it.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by session savage
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Aine, at the very least it looks like you will need to apply the vowel pronunciation rules listed there by session savage, unless of course they are different in Scots Gaelic.
If you use English pronunciation vowel pronunciation rules, the sound, and maybe even the meaning, could be very different than what it should be in Gaelic. Consonants and syllable stress - don't know.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Man, do I ever regret my ref above to “The poor girl’s simple request”
Let me clarify what I did. As Ron P correctly points out, I am not expert in Scots phonetics, so what I did was to render the Gaelic as it would be pronounced in the Western Irish dialect, which is the one I speak.
The language of the song is simple, & comprehensible (clearly, as I could read it) across Scots & Irish, so that my rendition, while it would sound just a little odd to the Irish ear, would be understandable.
I rendered, for example “‘s tu ‘n déidh do bhathadh” as ““sthoo nyee du vawha”, which is how I would (approximately) pronounce the Irish rendition - “‘s tú i ndiaidh do bhátha”. I did this (Ron P – please comment) in the knowledge that the Scots pronunciation is probably more akin to “sthuh nyay du vaaaha”. (The “d” in my phonetic “du”, in each case, being more akin to that in Homer Simpson’s “Doh” than the “d” in the English “Dog”.)
Pronunciation of vowels differs between the 4 dialects of Irish and as between those 4 and Scots. To take a simple example, your pet cat, in Kerry (South Irish dialect) is, more or less, a “Cauth”. In Connemara (West Irish dialect), she is emphatically a “Cuth”. People get confused when learning Gaelic because accenting vowels (or following vowels with duplicated consonants) dramatically alters the pronunciation. This is really an artefact of the written language. Similar occurs in English, but of course without accents – eg – Warsaw is the POLISH capital vs. to POLISH one’s shoes. Going back to the dialects – as a VERY general comment – vowels that are extended by accenting (in the written language) are pronounced unaccented in Northern Irish and in Scots, & AFAIK the accents are in many instances not written in Scots. Hence the conditional “Más” (which I would pronounce “Mawss”) would be pronounced “Maahs” by a Northern Irish or Scots speaker. I don’t think Scots takes the accent, & I also think (as Aine renders) that the word, as written in Scots, is split “Ma’s” for “Ma is” – which is actually older Irish usage too.
I didn’t actually correct for grammar, but I suspect that there are some errors in Aine’s rendition. Taking the phrase – “Ma’s e na róin do luchd-faire” – In Irish, the word “e” (which would be accented) is singular, whereas the reference to the seals (na róin) is plural. The Irish rendition, corrected for the plural, is “Más iad na róin do lucht faire”. Also, I’d be v. surprised if there is no vocative in Scots, so the girl in the song should correctly address her young man as “A Ailein Dhuinn”, or omit the initial “A” and, in writing - “ ‘Ailein Dhuinn ”. Ron P ?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
& one last one - re Duijera Dubh's question re syllabic emphasis This varies very considerably across dialects -
"Tá sé cineál fionnuar amuigh” (It's kind of cool outside) -
Western Irish dialect places emphasis on the first syllable, hence - again using approximate phonetics
"Thaw shay KINNaul FINNoor amuh"
But South Irish dialect places emphasis on the second syllable, almost subsuming the first syllable -
"Thaw shay k'NAUL f'n'OOR amuh"
The written rendition - "Tá sé cineál fionnuar amuigh” remains identical, similar to my previous example - the writteh "Cat" being pronounced "Cauth" in the South and "Cuth" in the West - even with no accents.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Thanx so much!! I realy appreciate it! I´m so thankful that I have you guys to help me out in times likes these.. ;)
xxx Aine xxx
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by ainekenaz
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Thank you, Sean. You did a great job.
In the past, on the times that I have tried to learn a little Irish, I found it confusing because I missed it that I needed to learn the long and short vowel sounds in Irish. They are different to the long and short vowel sounds in English.
Then there's the broad and slender consonant sounds in Irish as well, and a load of other things as well.
So, I guess that's about the long and short of it.
Now, Sean, I have about fifty songs in Irish that I am looking for phonetic translations for...how about it?
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Skull Duggeraigh Dubh
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Consonants - Yup - another web of complexity, without even mentioning that the language has nominative, vocative, accusative, genitive and dative forms of the noun, which nouns can be masculine or feminine.
50 phonetic renditions - Hmmmmmmm..........I'd love to help, but the day job gets in the way.........The thought does occur that one easy way to address this would be to get an Irish speaker to read the songs, slowly, in to a tape recorder for you, then you could transcribe yourself, with phonetics that would be meaningful to you.
I did a quick Google on who speaks Irish in Oz, & found this - http://www.ceantar.org/ATM/Australia/index.html
BTW - If you're interested in meaning in addition to phonetics - Don't be too surprised if a very fluent Irish speaker - even a native speaker - needs to consult a dictionary from time to time. A lot of Irish songs are old - 18th & 19th centuries - and feature relatively obscure words that have long since passed from modern usage. The same holds for grammatical constructs. The dative case, in particular, was simplified some time in the '50s or '60s - around about the time that the old Irish script was abandoned in favour of the standard European script.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
I’ll shut up after this – and this is strictly for hard-core interested parties only.
Old Irish poetry, and songs written in the poetic medium, feature a formalism of juxtaposition of narrow and broad vowels. There are, for example, at least three “Ay” sounds in Irish. One is simple for English speakers – “Ay” as in “Hay”, written in Irish as “é”. Another is a kind of combination of “”Ay” and “Ah”; this is written as “éa”. The third is a broad throaty sound, that I could not even try to render phonetically. It is written “ao” – “Laoch”, “Slaodaibh”.
Consider the second two lines of this extract from “Cill Mhuire” –
“Ansiúd a bhíonn tionnlach mionchlúir is faoileáin,
An chéirseach, sraoich-chearca ‘gus druide,
Ar ghéagaibh ‘na slaodaibh ag géilleadh fé bhláth”
The construction is quite intentionally a play on increasing broadness of “Ay” vowel sounds. The narrow “é” in “Chéirseach” is juxtaposed with the broader “éa” of “Ghéagaibh”. The intermediate “Aoi” of “Sraoich” is juxtaposed with the broad “Ao” in “Slaodaibh”, then, for effect, two narrow “é” sounds follow in “géilleadh” and “fé”, in order to emphasise the termination of the phrase by the very broad vowel of “Bhláth”, which is an “Aw” type sound (but much broader than the English “Aw”). The “Aw” is of course picked up later on in the song.
There are other patterns there – eg - the predominance of “U”-type sounds in the first line, the undertones of “I” sounds in the second line, and, of course, the “Ay” sounds leading up to the culminating “Aw” in the final line.
Poets took years to learn how to do this stuff. Very few modern speakers, other than native speakers, can actually make the subtly different sounds.
So, them as sez that writing stuff phonetically certainly have a point in stating that a lot is lost in so doing, & not just with regard to the imprecision of pronunciation.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
I meant - final sentence - "Them as sez that writing stuff phonetically loses a lot certainly have a point, & not just with regard to the imprecision of ostensibly phonetic renditions of pronunciation."
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Sean Lead Liath
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Apologies for not getting back re this sooner - I've had lots going on the past few days.
Aine, personally, I absolutely hate phonetics... as was pointed out by Duijera Dubh, phonetics can be very subjective - though I believe that there is a standard somewhere, but I don't really know anything about that, so I'll leave to others who know better. Anyway, rather than use phonetics, I'd advise you listen very carefully to someone with a sufficient knowledge of Gaelic singing the song, and copy them. Here's a link to Karen Matheson singing it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8OXbctQwXA
Having said I'd steer clear of phonetics, I'll contradict myself a wee bit, as there are a couple of things that should be highlighted, as they are very different in Gaelic pronunciation, from the Irish: "Moch 's a' mhadainn" would be pronunced "Moch sa vadeen". "Ch" as in "loch", NOT "lock"; also note that "mh" has a "v" sound, NOT a "w".
Sean, re the vocative case - yes your correct, but I think it's been dropped for poetic reasons here. I'd be surprised if words aren't truncated and omissions made in Irish songs as well.
Good luck with the song Aine, and again, good on you Sean - you're obviously very knowledgeable about languages, whereas I'm but a learner.
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by On Sabbatical
Re: To all who speak Gealic 2
Sound advice from Ron P - echoing mine to Duidjera - listening is a damn' site better than attempting to write phonetics.
There is a standard phonetic alphabet, full of weird symbols. I can't read it, & I dunno anyone who can, other than professional linguists, which I'm not.
For completeness, the "ch" sound in Irish is also actually, - as per Ron P's - that of "Loch", rather than the "ck" as I wrote - "ck" is how learners usually pronounce it until they learn how to pronouhnce the gutturals (which latter, on reflection, should be no trouble to a Dutch gal !).
"mh" in Irish is pronounced "w" ("sa mhaidin", "an-mholadh") or as a kind of compounded "w" and "v" if followed by a "u" ("mo mhúirnín", "A Mhuiris") if it occurs at the start of a word, and as "v" if it occurs at the end of a word ("Niamh" , "maíomh"). If it occurs in the middle - usually after an "a" or an "o" - it changes the sound of the "a" / "o" to something akin to the English "ow" as in "How".
I doubt that the vocative in Irish will last much longer. Only native speakers still use it, & even they not always.
Anyway, I'm getting altogether too like the little girl in the story about penguins. She was asked in school to read a book about penguins & write a critique / synopsis - Her effort commenced - "This book tells me more about penguins than I want to know"
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by Sean Lead Liath