There's been more than enough politics recently on this and other sites and it's great to see that RTE1 are going to broadcast 6 programmes from the 2007 Fleadh in Tullamore starting this Friday at 7.30pm. Let's forget the "who said what to whom and when" arguments and let the constitutional and other issues get resolved through the normal organisational processes. In the meantime we can hopefully enjoy some great music which is what it should all be about.
Don't forget - tune in to RTE1 at 7.30pm on Friday night!
The problem Bannerman is that it isn't getting solved by the normal organisational processes unless of course you consider dissolving a branch as solving the issue ?
Do we prefer to look at the reality or at the paperwork? I would be the obvious reply but the to and fro is getting a bit tiresome although I did think there was a wry sort of irony in the fact Bannerman posted to two threads: one a call to put politics aside, the other with a blog entry from a branch that was revived barely a year ago after being inactive for a very long time. The reason for the inactivity? Politics and the subsequent dissolving of it.
History, it does like repetition doesn't it, but do we ever learn?
I thought that this thread might just be about music, hence the title, and I ignored the first couple of comments until the "dictatorship" remark was made. Because the Bunreacht is on the website it was very easy to counter this, one of many wild assertions about Comhaltas, by providing a link to it.
Why do people continue fighting the battles of yesteryear? Can we not be allowed to get on with the music and enjoy events such as Willie Clancy (notwithstanding the fact that there was some major disagreement between factions there back in 1973) or similarly great trad sessions in the Blondes, Miltown Malbay today, which Kilfarboy refers to, irrespective of Branch battles that have taken place there down through the years.
After posting my comment above in reply to Bannerman's quite understandable plea to leave the politics to one side, the comments that followed and comments on other threads, I got to thinking about Comhaltas and it's relationship to musicians in general.
Over thirty years, of all the musicians I have known in different counties, only one is a member of Comhaltas. Some of us were at times "involved", some got lessons and some taught (in some branches, membership is compulsory in order to teach or get classes) but over a period of years, no one that I know of actually remained a member for very long. The one remaining member is not a member that long so it remains to be seen how long that lasts.
Furthermore, when there is a session being held regularly in a particular town/village and the question of the musicians giving classes arises, a branch of Comhaltas can be formed for no other reason than it is easier to do it that way. That Comhaltas provides insurance, thereby making it easier to get the use of schools/community centres for classes is probably one of the main reasons why a branch is formed. After a branch is formed, the classes begin and apart from sending the money on to HQ, there is no real connection to Comhaltas other than receipt of the quarterly magazine and entering younger players into competitions if they or their parents so wish. But for most, HQ is of no relevance to them.
And so one might well find that in some communities, especially outside of Dublin, Comhaltas is hardly recognised. If I were to ask for example were there fiddle classes available, I could be told that Johnny so and so or Mary so and so's daughter teaches fiddle over in the primary school of a Tuesday night. A B&B landlady, who I stay with in Clare, tells me that she sends her daughter across to so and so and he's very good. That any of those teaching the fiddle or whatever instruments are doing so under the auspices of Comhaltas or in classes organised by a Comhaltas branch can be irrelevant. Maybe because the passing on of music especially in rural areas is a community thing? The community look after their own, neighbours help each other and the teaching of your neighbour's kids is done as part of your contribution to your community. This has always been the way, long before the advent of Comhaltas with the most extreme case being that a teacher would travel from another part of the county to teach.
Although I don't have access to figures, I would imagine that membership of Comhaltas can be a transient thing for a lot of players. They join either by own choice, by the parent’s choice or if they have to when getting classes and then let the membership lapse when the need for classes is over. Of course this is not always the case but as "banjocp" touches on in another thread, sometimes the core membership of a branch can consist parents /people who don't play. Why?
Maybe in Ireland (and it's all I can talk about) , the general attitude of the thousands of musicians who play is one of indifference to Comhaltas- no animosity, indeed a recognition that is a great place to get classes- but just indifference. Like the North Pole, they know it's there? The sessions and the playing go on without any involvement from Comhaltas. It was like that before Comhaltas and in all likelihood would go on if Comhaltas were to cease to exist.
So it is difficult at times to see where Comhaltas get the idea that they are the "keeper of the flame", " minder of the lamp" and the one entrusted in the promotion of the music. The facts are that the music doesn't nor never has needed "promotion" and in fact the nature of the musician and of the session is that players don't care if anyone is listening, they would almost prefer that sessions stay underground. As I have said, it has always survived. Yes, we all agree that Comhaltas has played a part in the continuance of the tradition (to what extent is debatable), we will all give credit where it is due, but my experience and that of others, is one of indifference to the "goings on " in Belgrave Sq. But despite the beliefs of those with the siege mentality, there is no one just hanging around, seething with anger at Comhaltas or slag it off at any given chance.
However, where the indifference certainly does turn to anger, is when the seemingly power hungry mits of certain Comhaltas members reach out to grab at and influence in a way they see fit and in a way that offends the very soul of the music, the very thing that they claim to be nurturing. And the facts are that there have been many incidents of this. Incidents, which in some ways are beyond understanding and it, could be said in modern jargon, that Comhaltas seem very keen to talk the talk but at times certainly do not walk the walk.
For example, why has there been a policy of almost ethnic cleansing of certain regional styles by certain factions within Comhaltas? Why is B/C style of box playing given preferential marking over C#/D in competitions? (That this style of box playing is surviving and in fact experiencing a bit of a revival is testament, thankfully, to how little influence Comhaltas has). Why have certain regional styles of singing been ostracised in Comhaltas? Who decides this policy? And why? How can an organisation that professes itself to be a nurturer and promoter of Irish Traditional Music give preference to one regional style over the other? How can a musician support an organisation that makes little of maybe your friend's style of playing? Maybe the answer is that they don’t? Maybe the answer is in the fact that as I have said, thousands of musicians want no part of Comhaltas?
And these are only a few of the ongoing decisions made by Comhaltas which would appear to be about power for power sake. A need to control for the sake of feeling empowered? All one has to do is read the accounts of what happened in the early days of what is now known as the Willie Clancy week to see power grabbing mind set by certain factions within Comhaltas. A mind set that says to the effect that "we are the main men, we know what is best and we are the righteous owners and guardians of the music" How else could one explain their actions? And whilst it has been understandably and correctly argued here and in other places that there are many people in Comhaltas who do great - voluntary or lowly paid - work, these same people need to acknowledge that by staying quiet on these matters, they are in fact enabling this behaviour to continue.
"banjocp" makes the point on another thread that "the perpetual harping on of those, particularly ex-members or those who were never members is getting a little hard to take" Does he not realise that the content of the “harping on” is the very reason why these people are ex members or non members? Is it not understand that there is a reasons why many thousands of musicians do not want to belong to or have moved away from Comhaltas? Especially when considers that membership is not an expensive process and when one considers the normally very strong sense of pride and sense of nationalism that can come with the playing of this music? Who knows?
But one thing can be clear here and that is that the general music playing population are quite uninterested in Comhaltas, they don't care if HQ in Belgrave Sq is turned into a brothel; they simply don't care. But leave what has always organically survived alone. And don't be surprised when all the so called ex members express their anger at certain behaviours, because there is a general believe that the behaviour of Comhaltas can at times, be reprehensible. That loads of members work hard at providing classes is no excuse. And maybe in this latest incident, certain members of the Clontarf branch are all wrong? Maybe? But if the pattern so far is to believed then it would appear that there is no smoke without fire. Are all those commentators, sometimes separated by continents, all psychotic in their beliefs that Comhaltas HQ has once again " disgraced itself"? Are the Glackins and The O'Brien families to name a few, also mistaken in their support? How come we are all wrong? Is this a case of "all out of step except my Johnny”?
On the subject of IMRO and" that "incident(which Harry Bradley amongst others have written so clearly on in other threads), if Labhras O'Murchu had/has his way, in conjunction with IMRO, we will soon go the route of Italy. Where the publicans have to pay for license to have a session. Where the musicians have to submit a list of tunes played so that royalties can be imposed. If for example you say you played Danny Ab's slide then money has to be coughed up for Danny. That Danny never gets it is neither here nor there! Is this an exaggeration? I think not. He has already shown his willingness give and take monies so that Comhaltas can have control over the music. Himself and IMRO just haven't found a way to complete that control yet.
For example, how can IMRO take money from the fella playing the radio in his workshop, monies that are intended for those artists performing on the airwaves, and give it to Comhaltas? If all monies taken belong to those who music is played, how can Comhaltas be given an annual fee whilst at the same time complain about the lack of Trad music played on the airwaves! If jigs and reels (excepting the newly composed) cannot be levied, how can Comhaltas be given money? How can Comhaltas, an organisation that uses Catholicism as a base for it's spiritual beliefs (see past involvement in issues like abortion and divorce) accept this money?
Perhaps when Comhaltas as an organisation are seen to route out and rid themselves of the many behaviours that appear to be and are contrary to the real spirit of the music, then there might not be so many ex members/ non members seemingly skulking around the corner with apparently so little to do, that they "hop off " Comhaltas just for the fun of it?
Finally this writer has to wonder how it is that when the dodgy stuff in Comhaltas surfaces, the name of Labhras O'Murchu is never far away. And how that the many well-known and respected figures in music scene always seem to "pick on him" when these same issues arise? Is there some one or are there many persons hiding behind Labhras and using him as a patsy? Does he get the blame for the behaviour of others?
I think that as Bannerman suggests,we all want to get on with the music. And all around Ireland, week in week out, we do- in the form of sessions and summer schools- all away from the eyes of Comhaltas.How long will that go on? Because the past is not past- it is here, very much in the present
I just explained my position in an e-mail to Bannerman.
I am quite happy to co-exist with CCE and will turn up at functions and concerts when asked or when I get put on the programme for concerts even when not asked before the posters going up.
When the organisation's political moves interfere with my musicmaking or that of my friends, I do respond.
Good post Concertinaplayer. Fortunately you live in a country where Comhaltas can be ignored while still being able to fulfill a satisfactory musical life. Over this side of the pond it's a different matter. Comhaltas is all pervasive in the public face of traditional music. I was a member once, I left for various reasons, mostly philisophical and simply cannot take the organisation seriously except for the fact that very serious matters are at hand. In my current domicile (Toronto) it involves the continuation of music and singing. CCE have been "passing the music on" for a long, long time here but less than a handful of children can actually play a tune on a tin whistle in a city that is one of the largest ethnically Irish areas in North America. The majority of those kids learn their music outside of the Comhaltas mandate. It is nothing short of cultural ruination.
The heading on this thread is "Forget the Politics !!" so I'd make a heartfelt plea to anyone else with an anti-Comhaltas agenda to please go to that other thread over at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17108 where there’s any amount of discussion on this topic. I'm not going to attempt a blow-by-blow response to these last posts other than to say my own personal experience with the organisation couldn't be more different. As a member for nearly 30 years now, I've seen how it provided a focus for Irish emigrants in Britain back in the eighties and nineties with social activities and the added benefit of somewhere to learn and play the music - in fact I wouldn't be playing music today if it weren't for Comhaltas (some might Comhaltas have a lot to answer for!). Finally on the point of teaching music just have a look at the Cois na hAbhna car park in Ennis any night of the week and see all those young people with their instruments rushing in to the classes not to mention the adults with their dancing shoes. Hopefully we can now close this "non-political" thread (other than commenting on how the programme turns out on Friday night) as we all know one another's position.
Understood Bannerman and I have copied it to that thread in order that no further comments will be added here. Unfortunately I cannot delete the above. I can take it so that you won't be at the fundraiser for Clontarf !!
Thanks concertinaplayer. No I'm not a concert man myself and prefer to relax somewhere in a corner playing a few tunes with some other musicians and I don't care how big the session is providing there's lots of listening and empathy going on!
Forget the Politics !!
Forget the Politics !!
There's been more than enough politics recently on this and other sites and it's great to see that RTE1 are going to broadcast 6 programmes from the 2007 Fleadh in Tullamore starting this Friday at 7.30pm. Let's forget the "who said what to whom and when" arguments and let the constitutional and other issues get resolved through the normal organisational processes. In the meantime we can hopefully enjoy some great music which is what it should all be about.
Don't forget - tune in to RTE1 at 7.30pm on Friday night!
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Forget the Politics !!
The problem Bannerman is that it isn't getting solved by the normal organisational processes unless of course you consider dissolving a branch as solving the issue ?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: Forget the Politics !!
Boycott the fleadh, I have been doing that since 1977.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Forget the Politics !!
It does not appear that Comhaltas knows anything about what constitutes 'normal organisational processes'. Its a dictatorship pure and simple.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by bullwall
Re: Forget the Politics !!
Bullwall, I think you need to have a look at the Comhaltas constitution at http://comhaltas.ie/press_room/detail/comhaltas_constitution_bunreacht/ if you think that the organisation is a dictatorship!
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Forget the Politics !!
Do we prefer to look at the reality or at the paperwork? I would be the obvious reply but the to and fro is getting a bit tiresome although I did think there was a wry sort of irony in the fact Bannerman posted to two threads: one a call to put politics aside, the other with a blog entry from a branch that was revived barely a year ago after being inactive for a very long time. The reason for the inactivity? Politics and the subsequent dissolving of it.
History, it does like repetition doesn't it, but do we ever learn?
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Forget the Politics !!
Second sentence should start with 'It'
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Forget the Politics !!
I thought that this thread might just be about music, hence the title, and I ignored the first couple of comments until the "dictatorship" remark was made. Because the Bunreacht is on the website it was very easy to counter this, one of many wild assertions about Comhaltas, by providing a link to it.
Why do people continue fighting the battles of yesteryear? Can we not be allowed to get on with the music and enjoy events such as Willie Clancy (notwithstanding the fact that there was some major disagreement between factions there back in 1973) or similarly great trad sessions in the Blondes, Miltown Malbay today, which Kilfarboy refers to, irrespective of Branch battles that have taken place there down through the years.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Forget the Politics !!
After posting my comment above in reply to Bannerman's quite understandable plea to leave the politics to one side, the comments that followed and comments on other threads, I got to thinking about Comhaltas and it's relationship to musicians in general.
Over thirty years, of all the musicians I have known in different counties, only one is a member of Comhaltas. Some of us were at times "involved", some got lessons and some taught (in some branches, membership is compulsory in order to teach or get classes) but over a period of years, no one that I know of actually remained a member for very long. The one remaining member is not a member that long so it remains to be seen how long that lasts.
Furthermore, when there is a session being held regularly in a particular town/village and the question of the musicians giving classes arises, a branch of Comhaltas can be formed for no other reason than it is easier to do it that way. That Comhaltas provides insurance, thereby making it easier to get the use of schools/community centres for classes is probably one of the main reasons why a branch is formed. After a branch is formed, the classes begin and apart from sending the money on to HQ, there is no real connection to Comhaltas other than receipt of the quarterly magazine and entering younger players into competitions if they or their parents so wish. But for most, HQ is of no relevance to them.
And so one might well find that in some communities, especially outside of Dublin, Comhaltas is hardly recognised. If I were to ask for example were there fiddle classes available, I could be told that Johnny so and so or Mary so and so's daughter teaches fiddle over in the primary school of a Tuesday night. A B&B landlady, who I stay with in Clare, tells me that she sends her daughter across to so and so and he's very good. That any of those teaching the fiddle or whatever instruments are doing so under the auspices of Comhaltas or in classes organised by a Comhaltas branch can be irrelevant. Maybe because the passing on of music especially in rural areas is a community thing? The community look after their own, neighbours help each other and the teaching of your neighbour's kids is done as part of your contribution to your community. This has always been the way, long before the advent of Comhaltas with the most extreme case being that a teacher would travel from another part of the county to teach.
Although I don't have access to figures, I would imagine that membership of Comhaltas can be a transient thing for a lot of players. They join either by own choice, by the parent’s choice or if they have to when getting classes and then let the membership lapse when the need for classes is over. Of course this is not always the case but as "banjocp" touches on in another thread, sometimes the core membership of a branch can consist parents /people who don't play. Why?
Maybe in Ireland (and it's all I can talk about) , the general attitude of the thousands of musicians who play is one of indifference to Comhaltas- no animosity, indeed a recognition that is a great place to get classes- but just indifference. Like the North Pole, they know it's there? The sessions and the playing go on without any involvement from Comhaltas. It was like that before Comhaltas and in all likelihood would go on if Comhaltas were to cease to exist.
So it is difficult at times to see where Comhaltas get the idea that they are the "keeper of the flame", " minder of the lamp" and the one entrusted in the promotion of the music. The facts are that the music doesn't nor never has needed "promotion" and in fact the nature of the musician and of the session is that players don't care if anyone is listening, they would almost prefer that sessions stay underground. As I have said, it has always survived. Yes, we all agree that Comhaltas has played a part in the continuance of the tradition (to what extent is debatable), we will all give credit where it is due, but my experience and that of others, is one of indifference to the "goings on " in Belgrave Sq. But despite the beliefs of those with the siege mentality, there is no one just hanging around, seething with anger at Comhaltas or slag it off at any given chance.
However, where the indifference certainly does turn to anger, is when the seemingly power hungry mits of certain Comhaltas members reach out to grab at and influence in a way they see fit and in a way that offends the very soul of the music, the very thing that they claim to be nurturing. And the facts are that there have been many incidents of this. Incidents, which in some ways are beyond understanding and it, could be said in modern jargon, that Comhaltas seem very keen to talk the talk but at times certainly do not walk the walk.
For example, why has there been a policy of almost ethnic cleansing of certain regional styles by certain factions within Comhaltas? Why is B/C style of box playing given preferential marking over C#/D in competitions? (That this style of box playing is surviving and in fact experiencing a bit of a revival is testament, thankfully, to how little influence Comhaltas has). Why have certain regional styles of singing been ostracised in Comhaltas? Who decides this policy? And why? How can an organisation that professes itself to be a nurturer and promoter of Irish Traditional Music give preference to one regional style over the other? How can a musician support an organisation that makes little of maybe your friend's style of playing? Maybe the answer is that they don’t? Maybe the answer is in the fact that as I have said, thousands of musicians want no part of Comhaltas?
And these are only a few of the ongoing decisions made by Comhaltas which would appear to be about power for power sake. A need to control for the sake of feeling empowered? All one has to do is read the accounts of what happened in the early days of what is now known as the Willie Clancy week to see power grabbing mind set by certain factions within Comhaltas. A mind set that says to the effect that "we are the main men, we know what is best and we are the righteous owners and guardians of the music" How else could one explain their actions? And whilst it has been understandably and correctly argued here and in other places that there are many people in Comhaltas who do great - voluntary or lowly paid - work, these same people need to acknowledge that by staying quiet on these matters, they are in fact enabling this behaviour to continue.
"banjocp" makes the point on another thread that "the perpetual harping on of those, particularly ex-members or those who were never members is getting a little hard to take" Does he not realise that the content of the “harping on” is the very reason why these people are ex members or non members? Is it not understand that there is a reasons why many thousands of musicians do not want to belong to or have moved away from Comhaltas? Especially when considers that membership is not an expensive process and when one considers the normally very strong sense of pride and sense of nationalism that can come with the playing of this music? Who knows?
But one thing can be clear here and that is that the general music playing population are quite uninterested in Comhaltas, they don't care if HQ in Belgrave Sq is turned into a brothel; they simply don't care. But leave what has always organically survived alone. And don't be surprised when all the so called ex members express their anger at certain behaviours, because there is a general believe that the behaviour of Comhaltas can at times, be reprehensible. That loads of members work hard at providing classes is no excuse. And maybe in this latest incident, certain members of the Clontarf branch are all wrong? Maybe? But if the pattern so far is to believed then it would appear that there is no smoke without fire. Are all those commentators, sometimes separated by continents, all psychotic in their beliefs that Comhaltas HQ has once again " disgraced itself"? Are the Glackins and The O'Brien families to name a few, also mistaken in their support? How come we are all wrong? Is this a case of "all out of step except my Johnny”?
On the subject of IMRO and" that "incident(which Harry Bradley amongst others have written so clearly on in other threads), if Labhras O'Murchu had/has his way, in conjunction with IMRO, we will soon go the route of Italy. Where the publicans have to pay for license to have a session. Where the musicians have to submit a list of tunes played so that royalties can be imposed. If for example you say you played Danny Ab's slide then money has to be coughed up for Danny. That Danny never gets it is neither here nor there! Is this an exaggeration? I think not. He has already shown his willingness give and take monies so that Comhaltas can have control over the music. Himself and IMRO just haven't found a way to complete that control yet.
For example, how can IMRO take money from the fella playing the radio in his workshop, monies that are intended for those artists performing on the airwaves, and give it to Comhaltas? If all monies taken belong to those who music is played, how can Comhaltas be given an annual fee whilst at the same time complain about the lack of Trad music played on the airwaves! If jigs and reels (excepting the newly composed) cannot be levied, how can Comhaltas be given money? How can Comhaltas, an organisation that uses Catholicism as a base for it's spiritual beliefs (see past involvement in issues like abortion and divorce) accept this money?
Perhaps when Comhaltas as an organisation are seen to route out and rid themselves of the many behaviours that appear to be and are contrary to the real spirit of the music, then there might not be so many ex members/ non members seemingly skulking around the corner with apparently so little to do, that they "hop off " Comhaltas just for the fun of it?
Finally this writer has to wonder how it is that when the dodgy stuff in Comhaltas surfaces, the name of Labhras O'Murchu is never far away. And how that the many well-known and respected figures in music scene always seem to "pick on him" when these same issues arise? Is there some one or are there many persons hiding behind Labhras and using him as a patsy? Does he get the blame for the behaviour of others?
I think that as Bannerman suggests,we all want to get on with the music. And all around Ireland, week in week out, we do- in the form of sessions and summer schools- all away from the eyes of Comhaltas.How long will that go on? Because the past is not past- it is here, very much in the present
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: Forget the Politics !!
That was a solid post, fair play to you C.
I just explained my position in an e-mail to Bannerman.
I am quite happy to co-exist with CCE and will turn up at functions and concerts when asked or when I get put on the programme for concerts even when not asked before the posters going up.
When the organisation's political moves interfere with my musicmaking or that of my friends, I do respond.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by kilfarboy
Re: Forget the Politics !!
Good post Concertinaplayer. Fortunately you live in a country where Comhaltas can be ignored while still being able to fulfill a satisfactory musical life. Over this side of the pond it's a different matter. Comhaltas is all pervasive in the public face of traditional music. I was a member once, I left for various reasons, mostly philisophical and simply cannot take the organisation seriously except for the fact that very serious matters are at hand. In my current domicile (Toronto) it involves the continuation of music and singing. CCE have been "passing the music on" for a long, long time here but less than a handful of children can actually play a tune on a tin whistle in a city that is one of the largest ethnically Irish areas in North America. The majority of those kids learn their music outside of the Comhaltas mandate. It is nothing short of cultural ruination.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Forget the Politics !!
The heading on this thread is "Forget the Politics !!" so I'd make a heartfelt plea to anyone else with an anti-Comhaltas agenda to please go to that other thread over at http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17108 where there’s any amount of discussion on this topic. I'm not going to attempt a blow-by-blow response to these last posts other than to say my own personal experience with the organisation couldn't be more different. As a member for nearly 30 years now, I've seen how it provided a focus for Irish emigrants in Britain back in the eighties and nineties with social activities and the added benefit of somewhere to learn and play the music - in fact I wouldn't be playing music today if it weren't for Comhaltas (some might Comhaltas have a lot to answer for!). Finally on the point of teaching music just have a look at the Cois na hAbhna car park in Ennis any night of the week and see all those young people with their instruments rushing in to the classes not to mention the adults with their dancing shoes. Hopefully we can now close this "non-political" thread (other than commenting on how the programme turns out on Friday night) as we all know one another's position.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Forget the Politics !!
Understood Bannerman and I have copied it to that thread in order that no further comments will be added here. Unfortunately I cannot delete the above. I can take it so that you won't be at the fundraiser for Clontarf !!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: Forget the Politics !!
Thanks concertinaplayer. No I'm not a concert man myself and prefer to relax somewhere in a corner playing a few tunes with some other musicians and I don't care how big the session is providing there's lots of listening and empathy going on!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Forget the Politics !!
The latest political rumour (namely that Mugabe and Bertie are about to exchange jobs) is even more reason to forget politics (without the "the")!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by lazyhound