I picked up the fiddle 3 months ago. I am in my early 50's and have played guitar for about 35 years and learned the piano about 14 years ago. I have always loved fiddle music and wished I had picked it up years ago. I can't get enough. I practice 1 to 2 hours daily sometimes longer. I lose all track of time when I practice. I am definitely hooked big time. I am constantly thinking about how I can improve my technique, form, fingering, bowing all that's stuff. I listen and watch fiddle music as much as I can. It is definitely the most challenging instrument I have ever picked up but also the most fun to play.
Now to my problem. I seemed to have developed tendonitis in my fingering(left) hand. I was having a little arthritis in my hands prior, runs in the family, but this is definitely tendonitis. My middle knuckles are swollen and painful and difficult to bend, mostly in the morning, but now lasting all day and mainly in the index and middle finger. Again only in the left hand. Massaging the forearm definitely helps but I would have to massage it constantly. I can feel the painful tendons near my elbow and wrist when I massage them. Please don't advise me to stop practicing for awhile, I don't think I could, that's why I haven't gone to the MD because that's what they would say.
Have you heard of anyone else having this problem in the beginning? Is there anything I can do to help reduce the tendonitis such as certain exercises, braces, etc? Do you think it will resolve as my stamina grows and time allows the early awkwardness to feel more natural so I am more relaxed. I am constantly trying to remember to relax. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, a big thank you to all who have posted tunes and everything else here. It has been invaluable to a beginner like me.
I feel your pain! For me it's arthritis issues. I have found that using one of the arthritis rubs and taking asprin about a half hour BEFORE practice helps me.
When I first started playing I had soreness issues that were just over use. That did go away. Please be careful not to cause permanent injury.........the world need as many fiddle players as it can get!
Well sorry but your best bet is to stop playing.... for a bit... you know that,
face up to it.
If you dont it could likely just get worse untill you simply cant play at all... you dont want that .
so Rest and recuperation and some lessons on good technique from a highly reputable instructor. pay for it if you have to .. its worth it.
This is why good technique is SO important.... injury prevention.
My advice stop playing and focus on other aspects of the instrument/ music. read study... history . biographies, lessons. there is a wealth of material out there in book form and on the net.
you dont need to actually play to improve. Visualisation is very effective. watch some one good playing and visualise yourself in that persons shoes.
Hi Pete,
I am, by no means, an expert, but can tell you I have played violin since I was 6 and got my degree in violin performance...I was always so tense that I had headaches and arm aches, etc. Well, I quit for 18 years after my graduation and am now back at it again, only this time just trying to learn ITM. I have just started taking lessons with James Kelly (only had one), and I would highly recommend you taking some lessons with him. We went back to the bare bones beginning, but I can't tell you how much better my elbow tendinitis is already. He stresses relaxation and he might have some good advice for you. I know I'm pretty excited about the whole thing and have been spending literally hours on open strings and simple rolls, but am having a grand time. Go to JamesKellymusic.com for info. Good luck!
Pete, it sounds like you may be using the dreaded "death grip" on the strings. Lighten up--see how little pressure it takes to hold a note. Don't squeeze with your thumb. Let every finger relax.
The standard treatment for tendinitis is rest, alternating ice and heat, and gentle range-of-moition stretching. Try taking a week off from using your left hand--stay away from the computer keyboard, guitar, and piano. You can still play fiddle--work on your bowing and only your bowing.
It might also help to have a good fiddler troubleshoot your fiddle set up (is action too high? Is it a full-size fiddle and not 3/4? etc.) and your technique, in person.
Other ideas that have worked for me:
- always warm up before playing. Do gentle range-of-moion movements and stretches with both hands and forearms.
- try a warm soak--wash the dishes with gloves on, in hot water. This can stimulate circulation in your hands, preparing them to play.
- take an anti-inflammatory (e.g., ibuprofen) about an hour before starting to play.
- stop between sets of tunes and shake out your hands. Put the fiddle down and take a rest, not using your hands for anything.
- Apply ice after playing to reduce swelling. Then alternate ice and heat to stinulate circulation.
- take rest days.
- baby your hands. Don't strain to open jars, turn door knobs, hold onto tools, etc. Take frequent breaks from typing. Pay attention and reduce any tension when holding things like a telephone, pen, computer mouse, etc.
Pete, this bit of advice might leave me open to ridicule from fellow contributers but here goes anyway - wear a hat.
Don't know where you live but if your hands are at all cold or even not warm your muscles have to work a lot harder. Tendinitis is caused by the muscles tightening round your tendons, I believe. Cold hands tend to cramp up with the effort to play the way you want to. 90% of the head lost from a clothed person leaves from the head. Put a hat on an hour before you play. I do it in the winter now as I don't have great circulation and either it's a coincidence or it's certainly made my life easier.
Will has covered the therapeutic points pretty well.
You *have* to rest! Continuing to abuse an inflamed joint is dangerous. Tendinitis usually gets better, eventually, but it can take a while. And the longer you’ve had it, the longer it’s likely to take to heal. These inflammatory conditions are not thoroughly understood by medical science and they can, in some cases, get out of control. Twenty-one years ago, I had repetitive stress injuries to both my wrists and the inflammation became intractable. It was several years before I could seriously start re-learning my instruments and I’ve never completely recovered. Don’t risk it!
ha ha, yes indeed Juliet of the long name, heat it is.
Pete, you must go to your GP. As Bob says if you have tendonitis you must stop for a bit. I've had serious ligament and tendon problems for 20 years following a bad sporting injury (thankfully not in my hands). Not following medical instructions properly has caused me a great deal of extra pain.
That's a very good point Will makes about how little finger pressure is required. Try this: bow the open A-string slowly and lightly touch the string with your 2nd finger. You'll hear a variety of odd squeaks and the cat will leave the room. Now gradually increase the finger pressure until a clear tone emerges. That is all the finger pressure you need, and the string isn't even touching the fingerboard. Any more finger pressure is overkill and will makes finger movement slower and more effortful. It's not necessary for the string to touch the fingerboard; if it does then you're using too much pressure.
The same applies to the guitar. When I learnt the Spanish guitar I was taught not to press the string right down to the fingerboard, just sufficient for the string to engage the fret. Any more pressure is quite unnecessary because then the note will go sharp and it's extra wear on the string and your finger joints.
In addition to someone looking at the possibility of too high an action on your fiddle (which is easy to correct - but get an expert to do it!), the strings themselves could be contributing to the problem if they are heavy tension or steel cored. I'd consider going for lower tension strings and avoid steel cores(apart from the E, of course).
And perhaps you should cut down on your practice periods. 1-2 hours may be too much for your problem at this early stage in your playing, especially if it's done in one go. Try dividing it up into two or three shorter periods spread throughout the day. Or even just 30 minutes a day is sufficient - you can get a lot done in that time, especially for a beginner. And have one day a week complete break from playing. It really does help the learning process along.
Amen! Relax they death grip! No need to strangle the poor thing, it's a fiddle.
I know it's a shock [/sarcasm] but we're athletes to a degree. Stretching beforehand, breaks, rest, these are all things athletes do with their muscles.
I would agree with you re pressure lazy, but A friend of mine who teaches at one of the top 3 rated international academies and is an international performer has a different approach using a lot more pressure than I would think right..... I know its strictly off topic but I still wonder... I mean, this man teaches at a very high level indeed.... Although It goes against a general principle i hold I have to consider his views seriously. So I am attempting to follow his advice. ..... Ahh another conundrum....
Pete, this sounds very similar to what I started to experience a scant 4-5 weeks after I first picked up the fiddle. A year and a half later, I still experience some occasional soreness in my wrists - mostly my right wrist now - but it's stabilized and it's not the crippling pain I used to feel. The others have it right when they say that you're gripping the neck of the fiddle too tightly.
Here's what has helped me keep my wrist pain at bay:
* I wear =flexible= wrist braces when typing. See a doctor before using any braces, though, as your injuries might be different from mine. My doctor recommended against splints, and I know that self-splinting can often do more harm than good, even if the splints temporarily ease pain.
* I practice about as much as you do, but in shorter bursts. I aim for 30 minute practice sessions, and make absolutely sure to put down the fiddle after 45 minutes, tops.
* I ice my wrists for at least 20 minutes per day, whether I think they need it or not. If I am experiencing pain, I ice more (but not for more than 20 minutes at a stretch). I make sure to let my wrists warm up sufficiently before playing again.
* Someone on this board - I wish I remembered who! - suggested a good exercise for loosening up the left hand. It's along the lines of what Will CPT and lazyhound suggest about seeing how little finger pressure you need to get a good tone, but doesn't go quite as far as actually achieving that tone. Basically, bow the way you usually do, but just =gently= touch the string with your left hand. Do not touch the string to the fingerboard. Your tone will be absolute crap, but that's not the point: the point is getting into the habit of relaxing your left hand.
* My teacher had me start working on (finger) vibrato quite early - less than five months in. In order to do vibrato, you have no choice but to relax your left hand. For whatever reason, "you don't want to wreck your wrists" did not fully register with me as a good enough reason to relax my left hand, but developing a functional vibrato did.
Even when my pain was at its worst, it abated for enough time per day that I neved had to take a day off practicing. I am not sure how good an idea that was, but there it is.
YMMV; I am not a fiddle teacher, an expert fiddler, or a doctor.
You won't go to the doctor because you won't like what he/she has to say? So you consult a website concerning your medical condition?
That said, find a local teacher that has good technique, and GO TO YOUR DOCTOR! If your doctor doesn't understand your love of playing, or musician injuries, find a different doctor.
Unless you want to risk permanent damage.
Be careful. I am with the rest/recuperate group above. two things.
When you go to the doctor, ask him for a physical therapy referal so that you can get some activities that will resolve the tendonitis and improve your dexterity.
Second, find a good teacher to check your technique. I have had tendinitis and carpal tunnel back when I was playing virtually full time and holding down a full time job. Amazing how you find out your technique is bad.
Also, google 'tendon gliding' and 'median gliding'. I was having some wrist/hand issues since I am learning box and was doing alot of button bass. Those exercises helped alot.
Pete, I'd recommend finding a doctor who specialises in dealing with musicians' problems. If your own doctor is unable to help then try contacting the nearest professional symphony orchestra. They should be able to direct you to contacts.
I don't know if this is an option for you, but when I had tendonitis playing mandolin, I played through an amp so I could still play tunes with only the lightest touch.
The tendonitis went away, but I still practice through an amp sometimes and work on relaxing my left hand.
Musicians are a bit like joggers. Once we get the bug for an instrument and we sustain an injury we refuse to let go. I have known many marathon runners train on the most appalling injuries .. and we are just as bad. Logic and all rationale thought go out of the window as we persist with our 'training'. Then finally the day comes when the medics say - STOP.
Of course we could save ourselves a whole bunch of pain and misery. We could ease up and recognise our bodies are often weak and fallible. We could .. but of course we wont!
Most of the advice here makes sound sense (Not 100% sure about the hat one - but hey stranger things have been known). Be cautious about regular use of ibuprofen it will take away your pain but long term use won't help your gut a bundle. Your local health store will have a cream called arnica gel - it has the same effect as ibuprofen but has no nasty pharmaceutic side effects.
Another option is to go along to your local sport injury clinic. It may sound strange but sometimes a little ultrasound treatment can hasten the healing process. It is totally painless and very simple to do.
Of course the ideal would be to spend a week reading a book, listening to music or anything rather than picking up the fiddle. Now if you are like me, that won't happen. So at least ease up on the practice and apply some/ all of the good people here have recommended.
It will not go away without treatment AND if it is ignored it will get worse.
WOW, unbelievable response! Thank you to all for your advice and information. I hate to say that I think you are all right!
I think that Will CPT hit the root of the problem on the head. I have played 12 string acoustic guitar for over 30 years, wide neck, action a little stiff requiring good pressure and good calluses on the tips of each finger. I'm 6'3" and 205 with fairly large hands and I think that I probably carried my guitar habits over to my fiddle. I'm sure I am applying much more pressure than needed and with such a little fingerboard it's causing tremendous strain. I focus so hard on getting other aspects right that I am probably pressing very hard without realizing it.
Ok, ok, I'm a guy and like most guys hate to go to the doctor. Their fix always seems to be drugs and I hate taking any kind of medication. I have a tendency to ignore pain, temperature, etc.(I guess I'm a little numb between the ears) and only go to the doctor when I break something, need some sewing done or can't move(much to my wife's chagrine!) I have been a little rough on my body since childhood(sports, all sorts of PA, still very active)and I'm sure I'm starting to pay for the abuse.
Did I mention, to make matters worse, I am a perfectionist and a little stubborn. Anyway, I do have an instructor but I haven't talked to him about it yet because I missed last week's session due to a snowstorm. I will discuss this with him this week. The pain and stiffness has only gotten really bad in the past two weeks.
I will experiment with seeing how little finger pressure I can apply to get a good sound. My violin is full size, I don't fold my wrist up against the neck and I watch my posture and form carefully. My fiddle instructor has tried my fiddle and said he likes it. I will inquire again about the action to see if he thinks it's too stiff. He also watches my form. I will also try using warm compresses on my arm and hand prior to practicing. I will cut my practice times down and take breaks(I lose track of time and will play sometimes for an hour straight without a break-then take a 1 or 2 minute break and start again-I will have to set my cell phone alarm). I will focus on vibrato with all fingers which should help me with the pressure issue(it does require a light hand and finger to get it right). I promise I will stop strangling my poor little fiddle's neck and try a gentler approach. I'm sure once my instructor knows about it he will help me take more breaks and focus on finger pressure.
I have been trying to improve my speed on the 5 jigs and 1 march that I have learned so far and also on intonation which I believe is critical. I have a pretty good ear for music and hitting these notes flat or sharp drives me crazy(something I didn't have to worry about on the guitar or piano). So I do an exercise a thousand times until I hear it on key whether it is the scales or a tune or just a fingering exercise. I guess I have been overdoing it(ya think?). It's just so much fun and such a great challenge not to mention very rewarding when it does sound good!!!
I guess sometimes just discussing it helps cement things and gets me to do something about it. Anyway, thank you all again for your help, concern and kindness. It is invaluable and greatly appreciated!! Thank you for allowing me to address my problem here and all your sound advice. I will let you know what happens over the next few weeks with my efforts to heal myself without giving up practicing just yet.
Take care and keep on fiddlin' . . .
Pete
PS. I thought I posted a reply earlier but didn't see it so am posting again. If my first one did I'm sorry for this second reply, I'm a newbie at this sort of thing as well.
Another little trick is learning to totally relax your whole left hand in between every note or whenever you're playing an open string. After each fingered note, let your hand go limp, hovering there over the strings. Eventually, this relaxation takes over, even when you are fingering a note.
Also be aware of tension when you're *trying* to speed up or play in tune or anything else that takes real mental focus. Most people tend to tense up when they're trying hard to do something. It helps to not try so hard--instead, just let it happen. Instead of grinding the tunes out of your instrument, just let them lift up from it, like scent from homemade bread in the oven.
Speaking from personal experience, perfectionists have a tough time with this relaxation stuff. It took me years, but I finally let it go. I realized that the quality I admired most in great musicians' playing wasn't perfection but their effortlessness. No matter what they played, it sounded effortless. Takes a light, soft touch and economy of motion. No tension. Took me years to let go of all that, and I'm still working on it. But keeping "effortless" as a mantra in my head has led to the biggest improvements in my playing, and far fewer overuse aches and pains.
"No tension. Took me years to let go of all that, and I'm still working on it."
A few months ago, I mentioned to my teacher that if he'd told me a year and half earlier that the thing I'd find most difficult in learning to play the fiddle was =relaxing my body=, I'd never have believed him. I still can't believe how much effort I've put into =not putting in effort=.
It's coming, though - I am feeling less and less like I'm fighting my fiddle when I play. Some days, the two of us actually get along quite well.
I'm still working on it too, folks, no doubt. Hey, you've got to recognize it, address it, and work at it. I get so into enjoying myself that I think I go tense as a normal reaction. I almost have to not "let go" to maintain relaxation. It's like the two states are reversed.
I played classical as a child and teenager, and I think my normal state then was being able to play decently while being tense. It's almost like it became a normal state. It seems so odd now that I've made the mental change. The toughest part is recognizing it while playing and adjusting, for me at least.
This is why we slog pints of the black stuff while we play. The relaxer elixir.
People tease me sometimes because I look like I'm falling asleep while playing. But tension can still hide in tiny muscles and joints. Ferreting it out and shaking it off for me is mostly a mental thing, hence my "effortless" mantra. And I've learned not to give a sh*t, to just enjoy the music. That helps no end.
look up kato havas.She has a method to play music on fiddle without stress. without the stress music will be more fluid and the chance of injury if the method is correctly followed mimamal."there is no fiddle" .."there is no bow"!!!!!!!
Tendonitis
Tendonitis
Hi All,
I picked up the fiddle 3 months ago. I am in my early 50's and have played guitar for about 35 years and learned the piano about 14 years ago. I have always loved fiddle music and wished I had picked it up years ago. I can't get enough. I practice 1 to 2 hours daily sometimes longer. I lose all track of time when I practice. I am definitely hooked big time. I am constantly thinking about how I can improve my technique, form, fingering, bowing all that's stuff. I listen and watch fiddle music as much as I can. It is definitely the most challenging instrument I have ever picked up but also the most fun to play.
Now to my problem. I seemed to have developed tendonitis in my fingering(left) hand. I was having a little arthritis in my hands prior, runs in the family, but this is definitely tendonitis. My middle knuckles are swollen and painful and difficult to bend, mostly in the morning, but now lasting all day and mainly in the index and middle finger. Again only in the left hand. Massaging the forearm definitely helps but I would have to massage it constantly. I can feel the painful tendons near my elbow and wrist when I massage them. Please don't advise me to stop practicing for awhile, I don't think I could, that's why I haven't gone to the MD because that's what they would say.
Have you heard of anyone else having this problem in the beginning? Is there anything I can do to help reduce the tendonitis such as certain exercises, braces, etc? Do you think it will resolve as my stamina grows and time allows the early awkwardness to feel more natural so I am more relaxed. I am constantly trying to remember to relax. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Also, a big thank you to all who have posted tunes and everything else here. It has been invaluable to a beginner like me.
Having too much fun playing!
Pete,
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Pete Trikes
Re: Tendonitis
Hi Pete,
I feel your pain! For me it's arthritis issues. I have found that using one of the arthritis rubs and taking asprin about a half hour BEFORE practice helps me.
When I first started playing I had soreness issues that were just over use. That did go away. Please be careful not to cause permanent injury.........the world need as many fiddle players as it can get!
Best of luck
Mary
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Antikhntr
Re: Tendonitis
Well sorry but your best bet is to stop playing.... for a bit... you know that,
face up to it.
If you dont it could likely just get worse untill you simply cant play at all... you dont want that .
so Rest and recuperation and some lessons on good technique from a highly reputable instructor. pay for it if you have to .. its worth it.
This is why good technique is SO important.... injury prevention.
My advice stop playing and focus on other aspects of the instrument/ music. read study... history . biographies, lessons. there is a wealth of material out there in book form and on the net.
you dont need to actually play to improve. Visualisation is very effective. watch some one good playing and visualise yourself in that persons shoes.
good luck.
REST..
RECUPERATE.
RETURN
REPAIRED.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tendonitis
Hi Pete,
I am, by no means, an expert, but can tell you I have played violin since I was 6 and got my degree in violin performance...I was always so tense that I had headaches and arm aches, etc. Well, I quit for 18 years after my graduation and am now back at it again, only this time just trying to learn ITM. I have just started taking lessons with James Kelly (only had one), and I would highly recommend you taking some lessons with him. We went back to the bare bones beginning, but I can't tell you how much better my elbow tendinitis is already. He stresses relaxation and he might have some good advice for you. I know I'm pretty excited about the whole thing and have been spending literally hours on open strings and simple rolls, but am having a grand time. Go to JamesKellymusic.com for info. Good luck!
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by swillybay
Re: Tendonitis
Pete, it sounds like you may be using the dreaded "death grip" on the strings. Lighten up--see how little pressure it takes to hold a note. Don't squeeze with your thumb. Let every finger relax.
The standard treatment for tendinitis is rest, alternating ice and heat, and gentle range-of-moition stretching. Try taking a week off from using your left hand--stay away from the computer keyboard, guitar, and piano. You can still play fiddle--work on your bowing and only your bowing.
It might also help to have a good fiddler troubleshoot your fiddle set up (is action too high? Is it a full-size fiddle and not 3/4? etc.) and your technique, in person.
Other ideas that have worked for me:
- always warm up before playing. Do gentle range-of-moion movements and stretches with both hands and forearms.
- try a warm soak--wash the dishes with gloves on, in hot water. This can stimulate circulation in your hands, preparing them to play.
- take an anti-inflammatory (e.g., ibuprofen) about an hour before starting to play.
- stop between sets of tunes and shake out your hands. Put the fiddle down and take a rest, not using your hands for anything.
- Apply ice after playing to reduce swelling. Then alternate ice and heat to stinulate circulation.
- take rest days.
- baby your hands. Don't strain to open jars, turn door knobs, hold onto tools, etc. Take frequent breaks from typing. Pay attention and reduce any tension when holding things like a telephone, pen, computer mouse, etc.
Be well.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tendonitis
Pete, this bit of advice might leave me open to ridicule from fellow contributers but here goes anyway - wear a hat.
Don't know where you live but if your hands are at all cold or even not warm your muscles have to work a lot harder. Tendinitis is caused by the muscles tightening round your tendons, I believe. Cold hands tend to cramp up with the effort to play the way you want to. 90% of the head lost from a clothed person leaves from the head. Put a hat on an hour before you play. I do it in the winter now as I don't have great circulation and either it's a coincidence or it's certainly made my life easier.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by bogman
Re: Tendonitis
"take an .......ibuprofen...about an hour before starting to play"
You're playing won't get any better but, at least, you'll not end up with a sore head...
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Johnny Jay
Re: Tendonitis
Oops, sorry about the bad grammar but I 'm sure you get the drift.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by bogman
Re: Tendonitis
Bogman,
"90% of the head lost from a clothed person leaves from the head. "
Actually, it's good advice if you meant to say "heaT".
Dinnae lose the HEID....
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Johnny Jay
Re: Tendonitis
Will has covered the therapeutic points pretty well.
You *have* to rest! Continuing to abuse an inflamed joint is dangerous. Tendinitis usually gets better, eventually, but it can take a while. And the longer you’ve had it, the longer it’s likely to take to heal. These inflammatory conditions are not thoroughly understood by medical science and they can, in some cases, get out of control. Twenty-one years ago, I had repetitive stress injuries to both my wrists and the inflammation became intractable. It was several years before I could seriously start re-learning my instruments and I’ve never completely recovered. Don’t risk it!
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Tendonitis
ha ha, yes indeed Juliet of the long name, heat it is.
Pete, you must go to your GP. As Bob says if you have tendonitis you must stop for a bit. I've had serious ligament and tendon problems for 20 years following a bad sporting injury (thankfully not in my hands). Not following medical instructions properly has caused me a great deal of extra pain.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by bogman
Re: Tendonitis
That's a very good point Will makes about how little finger pressure is required. Try this: bow the open A-string slowly and lightly touch the string with your 2nd finger. You'll hear a variety of odd squeaks and the cat will leave the room. Now gradually increase the finger pressure until a clear tone emerges. That is all the finger pressure you need, and the string isn't even touching the fingerboard. Any more finger pressure is overkill and will makes finger movement slower and more effortful. It's not necessary for the string to touch the fingerboard; if it does then you're using too much pressure.
The same applies to the guitar. When I learnt the Spanish guitar I was taught not to press the string right down to the fingerboard, just sufficient for the string to engage the fret. Any more pressure is quite unnecessary because then the note will go sharp and it's extra wear on the string and your finger joints.
In addition to someone looking at the possibility of too high an action on your fiddle (which is easy to correct - but get an expert to do it!), the strings themselves could be contributing to the problem if they are heavy tension or steel cored. I'd consider going for lower tension strings and avoid steel cores(apart from the E, of course).
And perhaps you should cut down on your practice periods. 1-2 hours may be too much for your problem at this early stage in your playing, especially if it's done in one go. Try dividing it up into two or three shorter periods spread throughout the day. Or even just 30 minutes a day is sufficient - you can get a lot done in that time, especially for a beginner. And have one day a week complete break from playing. It really does help the learning process along.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tendonitis
Amen! Relax they death grip! No need to strangle the poor thing, it's a fiddle.
I know it's a shock [/sarcasm] but we're athletes to a degree. Stretching beforehand, breaks, rest, these are all things athletes do with their muscles.
Newsflash: Musicians aren't any different!
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tendonitis
I would agree with you re pressure lazy, but A friend of mine who teaches at one of the top 3 rated international academies and is an international performer has a different approach using a lot more pressure than I would think right..... I know its strictly off topic but I still wonder... I mean, this man teaches at a very high level indeed.... Although It goes against a general principle i hold I have to consider his views seriously. So I am attempting to follow his advice. ..... Ahh another conundrum....
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tendonitis
Pete, this sounds very similar to what I started to experience a scant 4-5 weeks after I first picked up the fiddle. A year and a half later, I still experience some occasional soreness in my wrists - mostly my right wrist now - but it's stabilized and it's not the crippling pain I used to feel. The others have it right when they say that you're gripping the neck of the fiddle too tightly.
Here's what has helped me keep my wrist pain at bay:
* I wear =flexible= wrist braces when typing. See a doctor before using any braces, though, as your injuries might be different from mine. My doctor recommended against splints, and I know that self-splinting can often do more harm than good, even if the splints temporarily ease pain.
* I practice about as much as you do, but in shorter bursts. I aim for 30 minute practice sessions, and make absolutely sure to put down the fiddle after 45 minutes, tops.
* I ice my wrists for at least 20 minutes per day, whether I think they need it or not. If I am experiencing pain, I ice more (but not for more than 20 minutes at a stretch). I make sure to let my wrists warm up sufficiently before playing again.
* Someone on this board - I wish I remembered who! - suggested a good exercise for loosening up the left hand. It's along the lines of what Will CPT and lazyhound suggest about seeing how little finger pressure you need to get a good tone, but doesn't go quite as far as actually achieving that tone. Basically, bow the way you usually do, but just =gently= touch the string with your left hand. Do not touch the string to the fingerboard. Your tone will be absolute crap, but that's not the point: the point is getting into the habit of relaxing your left hand.
* My teacher had me start working on (finger) vibrato quite early - less than five months in. In order to do vibrato, you have no choice but to relax your left hand. For whatever reason, "you don't want to wreck your wrists" did not fully register with me as a good enough reason to relax my left hand, but developing a functional vibrato did.
Even when my pain was at its worst, it abated for enough time per day that I neved had to take a day off practicing. I am not sure how good an idea that was, but there it is.
YMMV; I am not a fiddle teacher, an expert fiddler, or a doctor.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Tendonitis
You won't go to the doctor because you won't like what he/she has to say? So you consult a website concerning your medical condition?
That said, find a local teacher that has good technique, and GO TO YOUR DOCTOR! If your doctor doesn't understand your love of playing, or musician injuries, find a different doctor.
Unless you want to risk permanent damage.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Tendonitis
Im kinda lucky, my doctor is a famous fiddler
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by piobagusfidil
Re: Tendonitis
Be careful. I am with the rest/recuperate group above. two things.
When you go to the doctor, ask him for a physical therapy referal so that you can get some activities that will resolve the tendonitis and improve your dexterity.
Second, find a good teacher to check your technique. I have had tendinitis and carpal tunnel back when I was playing virtually full time and holding down a full time job. Amazing how you find out your technique is bad.
Also, google 'tendon gliding' and 'median gliding'. I was having some wrist/hand issues since I am learning box and was doing alot of button bass. Those exercises helped alot.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by zippydw
Re: Tendonitis
Pete, I'd recommend finding a doctor who specialises in dealing with musicians' problems. If your own doctor is unable to help then try contacting the nearest professional symphony orchestra. They should be able to direct you to contacts.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Trevor Jennings
Re: Tendonitis
You're not flattening your wrist up against the neck of the fiddle, are you? I see people doing that and it always worries me re. long-term damage.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by west-coaster
Re: Tendonitis
I don't know if this is an option for you, but when I had tendonitis playing mandolin, I played through an amp so I could still play tunes with only the lightest touch.
The tendonitis went away, but I still practice through an amp sometimes and work on relaxing my left hand.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by abuteague
Re: Tendonitis
I had to give up mandolin completely. Couldn't find an approach that didn't strain.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Tendonitis
Musicians are a bit like joggers. Once we get the bug for an instrument and we sustain an injury we refuse to let go. I have known many marathon runners train on the most appalling injuries .. and we are just as bad. Logic and all rationale thought go out of the window as we persist with our 'training'. Then finally the day comes when the medics say - STOP.
Of course we could save ourselves a whole bunch of pain and misery. We could ease up and recognise our bodies are often weak and fallible. We could .. but of course we wont!
Most of the advice here makes sound sense (Not 100% sure about the hat one - but hey stranger things have been known). Be cautious about regular use of ibuprofen it will take away your pain but long term use won't help your gut a bundle. Your local health store will have a cream called arnica gel - it has the same effect as ibuprofen but has no nasty pharmaceutic side effects.
Another option is to go along to your local sport injury clinic. It may sound strange but sometimes a little ultrasound treatment can hasten the healing process. It is totally painless and very simple to do.
Of course the ideal would be to spend a week reading a book, listening to music or anything rather than picking up the fiddle. Now if you are like me, that won't happen. So at least ease up on the practice and apply some/ all of the good people here have recommended.
It will not go away without treatment AND if it is ignored it will get worse.
D
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by WelshGuy
Re: Tendonitis
WOW, unbelievable response! Thank you to all for your advice and information. I hate to say that I think you are all right!
I think that Will CPT hit the root of the problem on the head. I have played 12 string acoustic guitar for over 30 years, wide neck, action a little stiff requiring good pressure and good calluses on the tips of each finger. I'm 6'3" and 205 with fairly large hands and I think that I probably carried my guitar habits over to my fiddle. I'm sure I am applying much more pressure than needed and with such a little fingerboard it's causing tremendous strain. I focus so hard on getting other aspects right that I am probably pressing very hard without realizing it.
Ok, ok, I'm a guy and like most guys hate to go to the doctor. Their fix always seems to be drugs and I hate taking any kind of medication. I have a tendency to ignore pain, temperature, etc.(I guess I'm a little numb between the ears) and only go to the doctor when I break something, need some sewing done or can't move(much to my wife's chagrine!) I have been a little rough on my body since childhood(sports, all sorts of PA, still very active)and I'm sure I'm starting to pay for the abuse.
Did I mention, to make matters worse, I am a perfectionist and a little stubborn. Anyway, I do have an instructor but I haven't talked to him about it yet because I missed last week's session due to a snowstorm. I will discuss this with him this week. The pain and stiffness has only gotten really bad in the past two weeks.
I will experiment with seeing how little finger pressure I can apply to get a good sound. My violin is full size, I don't fold my wrist up against the neck and I watch my posture and form carefully. My fiddle instructor has tried my fiddle and said he likes it. I will inquire again about the action to see if he thinks it's too stiff. He also watches my form. I will also try using warm compresses on my arm and hand prior to practicing. I will cut my practice times down and take breaks(I lose track of time and will play sometimes for an hour straight without a break-then take a 1 or 2 minute break and start again-I will have to set my cell phone alarm). I will focus on vibrato with all fingers which should help me with the pressure issue(it does require a light hand and finger to get it right). I promise I will stop strangling my poor little fiddle's neck and try a gentler approach. I'm sure once my instructor knows about it he will help me take more breaks and focus on finger pressure.
I have been trying to improve my speed on the 5 jigs and 1 march that I have learned so far and also on intonation which I believe is critical. I have a pretty good ear for music and hitting these notes flat or sharp drives me crazy(something I didn't have to worry about on the guitar or piano). So I do an exercise a thousand times until I hear it on key whether it is the scales or a tune or just a fingering exercise. I guess I have been overdoing it(ya think?). It's just so much fun and such a great challenge not to mention very rewarding when it does sound good!!!
I guess sometimes just discussing it helps cement things and gets me to do something about it. Anyway, thank you all again for your help, concern and kindness. It is invaluable and greatly appreciated!! Thank you for allowing me to address my problem here and all your sound advice. I will let you know what happens over the next few weeks with my efforts to heal myself without giving up practicing just yet.
Take care and keep on fiddlin' . . .
Pete
PS. I thought I posted a reply earlier but didn't see it so am posting again. If my first one did I'm sorry for this second reply, I'm a newbie at this sort of thing as well.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Pete Trikes
Re: Tendonitis
Good on you, Pete. Do let us know how things go.
Another little trick is learning to totally relax your whole left hand in between every note or whenever you're playing an open string. After each fingered note, let your hand go limp, hovering there over the strings. Eventually, this relaxation takes over, even when you are fingering a note.
Also be aware of tension when you're *trying* to speed up or play in tune or anything else that takes real mental focus. Most people tend to tense up when they're trying hard to do something. It helps to not try so hard--instead, just let it happen. Instead of grinding the tunes out of your instrument, just let them lift up from it, like scent from homemade bread in the oven.
Speaking from personal experience, perfectionists have a tough time with this relaxation stuff. It took me years, but I finally let it go. I realized that the quality I admired most in great musicians' playing wasn't perfection but their effortlessness. No matter what they played, it sounded effortless. Takes a light, soft touch and economy of motion. No tension. Took me years to let go of all that, and I'm still working on it. But keeping "effortless" as a mantra in my head has led to the biggest improvements in my playing, and far fewer overuse aches and pains.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tendonitis
"No tension. Took me years to let go of all that, and I'm still working on it."
A few months ago, I mentioned to my teacher that if he'd told me a year and half earlier that the thing I'd find most difficult in learning to play the fiddle was =relaxing my body=, I'd never have believed him. I still can't believe how much effort I've put into =not putting in effort=.
It's coming, though - I am feeling less and less like I'm fighting my fiddle when I play. Some days, the two of us actually get along quite well.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: Tendonitis
I'm still working on it too, folks, no doubt. Hey, you've got to recognize it, address it, and work at it. I get so into enjoying myself that I think I go tense as a normal reaction. I almost have to not "let go" to maintain relaxation. It's like the two states are reversed.
I played classical as a child and teenager, and I think my normal state then was being able to play decently while being tense. It's almost like it became a normal state. It seems so odd now that I've made the mental change. The toughest part is recognizing it while playing and adjusting, for me at least.
*#&$% ergonomics...
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Tendonitis
This is why we slog pints of the black stuff while we play. The relaxer elixir.
People tease me sometimes because I look like I'm falling asleep while playing. But tension can still hide in tiny muscles and joints. Ferreting it out and shaking it off for me is mostly a mental thing, hence my "effortless" mantra. And I've learned not to give a sh*t, to just enjoy the music. That helps no end.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Tendonitis
look up kato havas.She has a method to play music on fiddle without stress. without the stress music will be more fluid and the chance of injury if the method is correctly followed mimamal."there is no fiddle" .."there is no bow"!!!!!!!
# Posted on April 9th 2008 by infiddle