Stick around guys, 2 hour flights to London in the future.
At this rate, it will be quicker to fly to Ireland from Oz than try to battle the Sydney traffic to get to a session:
There you go, all you UK-based ITM players, all you need now is Aussie permanent resident status, and you can fly home for weekends! Off you go to Australia House now, before the rush.
With Aussie PR status, why would you want to fly home for weekends, even if it was possible? I have a couple of days off work - oo, I know, let's get out of this awful sunshine and go to a rainy, grim, horrible country full of annoying whingers and spend my time there, what a great idea
Well, I never, Dow. It is very nice to hear you say that - not about the plight of your poor English compatriots I mean, unless you were just referring to Ireland - just that at least you appreciate Aussie sunshine. That's a good start, Dow, there is definitely hope for you; and you probably now won't get exported too.
You mean as in "like an Aussie" or "I'm an Aussie, like!", or not an Aussie? Or like the Aussies who invented that engine to get to London in two hours.
There seems to be a mistake for Dow to be imported back to the UK will require the payment of taxs ,fees ,duty and other reasonable costs to the UK tax payer .
To say nothing of what he will have to say about trying to get through Heathrow.
Tip for Australians: fly to Amsterdam and then Aer Lingus. Very civilised.
Key, come off the grass, mate - what do you think it is - bush week? Just because you're not going to win the cricket for about 50 years, no need to come the dummy spit!
Anyway, real Aussies live in Europe.
Me? Been to Europe about six times now, once to England, that was it for me. It's too - English! (Anyway that should change with time now that you're into the European Union.)
And how can you guys put up with those excuses for meat pies and sausage rolls - and warm beer. Geez, chunder material!
Oh yeah! World news, I'd say. Heathrow was always a nightmare going back years - enough to make me not fly into England at all ever. Once was enough.
By the look of it there now though, it could be the start of the next English Revolution. What a bloody mess. Really gonna hurt the tourist trade I'd say.
Scotland have never won cricket in any competition, so I don't see why you're making a fuss about that, DD.
If I were to be honest, I'd rather London WAS filled up with Aussies, as they're generally a lot friendlier and easier going than Cockney geezers, rude boys, or hooray henrys, which is what indigenous Londoners seem to be comprised of these days.
Sorry, Key, I thought you were a whinging pom, and I thought I'd have a go at you. They wouldn't expect anything less would they? I mean, even Dow has a go at them. So that's really saying something.
What's a flickin' hooray henry anyway!
And by the way, Key, tell em to take up the cricket then, they could probably do the poms now that we have softened them up. Really put the boot in while they're down now.
Waht's hooray Henry?
A posh wenker with no brain and lots of cash, plus Porsche, Maserati Spider or similar. Known to frequent places like Kensington, Chelsea, and so on. Also racist, sexist, classist, everything-ist.
It's never too late, nicholas. But, nah, Dow likes a different kind of heat, he'll want to stay and fry in sweaty old Sydney. Stir fried Dow with boiled rice.
I'm not sure how you'd fit inside one of those scramjets unless you're a bluudy pencil. Definitely not if yer swell headed. Its a long way before KML would have to be concerned about a rain of Aussies pouring down in scramjets at Heathrow. If they land with a nose dive any session instrument is going ta get bent.
I love the way the Aussies and British slag off each other's cuisine - "our meat pies and sausage rolls are better than yours". It's no wonder other countries snigger at us behind our backs - the British for being crap and the Aussies for being no better even after a coupla hundred years of trying to be different.
Ah the Brits love it, Dow. Anyway, you can go have a nice Shakespeare's pie next to Kelly's Bar before the session tomorrow night. That's why you really wanted the session there isn't it. I know.
So, what's wrong with haggis, square sausages, Scotch pies, bridies, Scotch broth, cock-a-leekie soup and Tunnock's caramel logs?
(Apart from the fact that they are all Salmonella-flavoured cholesterol.)
The Aussies try and kid themselves that they eat well by watching The Cook And The Chef (God they annoy me) and Food Safari with Maeve O'Mara so that they can feel smug about how diverse the cuisine is in Australia. Well yes it is if you moved over here from Malaysia or you happen to be a professional chef, but while watching these programs, your average Aussie is eating junk food from the local supermarket and, yes, you guessed it, meat pies and sausage rolls drowned in tomato sauce. Just like their whingey cousins over in the Motherland.
In fact, the Aussies took everything that was bad about British cuisine and made it their own. They haven't tried (because they're wusses) things like haggis and black pudding. Aaahh Scotch Pies too, Key Maniac Lad knows what good cuisine is all about.
Hey Poms, next time some Aussie tells you British cuisine is crap and that Australia has all this diverse ethnic cuisine, just laugh at them and say "hello? Chiko Roll" and watch them blush and walk away.
Hey, Dow, take a look at the hundreds of restaurants that line King Street right outside your session venue in both directions on both sides of the street.
I have travelled around the world a bit, and I have to say that Sydney and Melbourne have some of the best and varied international cuisine there is. King Street Newtown (Dow's session location) is a prime example. Have you tried any of those restaurants, Dow? Many of them are top class, the best in Sydney, and very reasonably priced, cheap almost, because of all the competition. And yes, Shakespeare's pies, right next to your session venue, is acknowledged and received awards as the best pies in Australia. Sorry, mate, that's just the way it is - Australia wins again. I actually haven't seen any of those cooking shows you seem to hate - I spend my time actually eating in the restaurants, not eating heat-up frozen dinners while watching cooking shows.
Again, Dow, you fall into the trap of trying to define 'an average Aussie' through your own subjective perspective. I get the impression that you are extrapolating what an 'average Aussie' is from your own self-perception.
Hahahaha, see what I mean?! Take all those excellent Thai restaurants on King Street. I've tried every single one of them. Not one of them has an Aussie working as a chef or waiting staff member or anything else. So what's so Australian about it? You Aussies just want to take the credit for everything. You're so desperate you even want Russell Crowe and Mel Gibson!! The *shame*...
"And yes, Shakespeare's pies, right next to your session venue, is acknowledged and received awards as the best pies in Australia. Sorry, mate, that's just the way it is - Australia wins again"
Hey I know maybe I could open up "Dow's Shortbread" next to the pie shop. I could win awards for being the best shortbread shop in Australia. All I need is some flour, sugar and butter. All the Aussies in the land would praise me for my amazing culinery skills.
"next time some Aussie tells you British cuisine is crap and that Australia has all this diverse ethnic cuisine..." (Dow)
Yes, that's right, Dow...Australia has all this diverse ethnic cuisine, just like you point out.
That's Australia.
You're caught in the past, Dow, trying to maintain some Anglo-Australian image. You're becoming the image, Dow, can't you see that?
If you keep doing this, you're going to become a grumpy old whinging pom sitting in the corner playing his fiddle, muttering darkly about those bloody Aussies, over your porter.
Hooray Henrys, aka Raas, Sloanes, Oxbridge Rejects (if they haven't gone there), etc.: often loud and preposterous, seldom a menace in their youth. Their women's voices have the distinctive penetrating power of tearing calico. Some of them get dangerous in mid-life - murder of partner, attempts at Boy's Own-style military coups in foreign parts, driving at 190 mph down the M4 on three bottles of brandy, that sort of thing - but they're not likely to roll you over in the street for money for skag. They are very faithful to their dogs.
Lamb tagine actually, Dow - homemade.
I guess your stereotyping efforts just don't fit do they, Dow.
How many of the hundreds of people who own and work in the restaurants in King Street would be Australian citizens do you think, Dow, not just have permanent resident status.
They're Australians, Dow. Sorry if that disappoints you.
Being an Aussie citizen does not make you Aussie, DD. This is what a lot of Aussies don't understand because they don't understand what culture is, given that they have never come across it. A lot of people (me included) just want to get Aussie citizenship so they can be allowed to vote, and so that they can have an Aussie passport to make a quicker pass through immigration when coming back into Oz - nothing more.
And I haven't had any beer today - only good single malt. Chardonnay's for sissies.
"being an Aussie citizen does not make you Aussie" (Dow).
It certainly does, Dow. Try making your argument at law. Sorry, you lose.
You see Dow, you use terminology like "Aussie" rather than "Australian" - you have an image in your mind that you want to hold onto so very much, so that you can have a target for your views. What would you do if you couldn't find any stereotypes, Dow? How would you make sense of the country then?
All the best restaurants in the world have chardonnays, Dow.
As for malts, yeah, have a range of 25 year olds. Very nice they are too.
I woiuldn't have to - they know that already. They know in their hearts what it means to be Tibetan, regardless of what others are telling them they should be or feel, by law or whatever else.
<< As for malts, yeah, have a range of 25 year olds. Very nice they are too. >>
Yes but their not Irish and we dont need as much as 25
to make it the Pure Drop.. lol ..Just joking Duijera Dubh..
jim,,,,,,
The problem with White Australia is that people refuse to understand that immigrants might not want to assimilate. They'd like to be themselves thank you very much. White Aussies assume that they're so amazing that everyone wants to be like them, well sorry that just ain't the case. The sooner you realise this the better, imo. Same goes for Britain of course.
And when I say that I'm not just talking about the sinister Aussie Pride people down at Cronulla Beach, I'm talking about a general mentality - something I've come across as an immigrant to your country more often than I feel comfortable with. Sorry, but getting Aussie citizenship does NOT make me an Aussie, or an Australian or anything else.
Dow, you get Australian citizenship and you will be subject to the laws of this country as an Australian whether you like it or not.
"White Australia", "White Aussies", Dow? When you generalise with that sort of rhetoric, I would have thought that would be racist wouldn't it?
Dow, you sure you couldn't do with another malt right now?
I'm subject to the laws of this country as a permanent resident too, that's fine by me. It doesn't make me Australian though. Doesn't make the Chinese people next door to me Australian either. They're might be here to escape persecution or just for the good weather over here. Don't assume they want to be just like you with different colour skins.
And don't assume I want to be like you just with a different accent. I'm different to you. I come from a different country. My culture and identity are very different to yours. I have a different world view. And that's ok.
I didn't say having permanent residence makes you Australian, it just makes you a permanent resident. If you take up citizenship, you're Australian.
You see, Dow, I don't have a racist view of what being "Australian" is. You do apparently.
No, you just have a total lack of understanding of what racism is, due to the overly politically correct bias of your national newspapers and current affairs programs on TV. Being Australian has nothing to do with your race or colour of skin, nor does it have to do with what passport you have. It has to do with your culture and identity. What you're saying is the same as I've heard trotted out as a standard line from countless other Australians: you imply that assimilation is a good thing - "let's all be Australian together and everything will be ok". Well I'd feel more comfortable with "let's all live together at peace in the same country and be who we want to be, not what other people tell us we are".
That's fine, Dow, can't see any problem with that.
"Being Australian has nothing to do with your race or colour of skin, nor does it have to do with what passport you have".
Correct, but...the laws of this country provide the latitude that if you have Australian citizenship, you are Australian, that's it.
Not like other countries past and present where even though you have the citizenship papers, you are not recognised as a citizen for some other reason.
You're the one announcing here that 'white Australians', and 'white Aussies' have this or that attitude. As a generalisation, that's plain b*sh*te, Dow, any clear thinking person reading this thread will see that.
I haven't implied anything about assimilation, Dow...you've raised that. Like I've told you before, no one really gives a rats whether you assimilate or not. But - if you get Australian citizenship for the benefits that you obtain from that, you are regarded as an Australian. Now, have a nice time getting your Australian citizenship won't you. LOL.
See, this is what I would like you to understand, DD. To you, being "Australian" is just about having a bit of paper that states you are an Aussie citizen. It's no more complicated than that, and you seem to enjoy the incomplexity of it. Well, other people see the world differently to you. They see their nationality - their "Chineseness" or their "Italianness" or their "Lebaneseness" as being far more meaningful than a mere slip of paper. When someone turns round and tries to tell them that all that is important to them is meaningless, that's when people get p*ssed off. That's when riots happen and people get hurt. That's also when people make a fuss about Reconciliation. Ever wonder why Australia has never got anywhere with that, despite Rudd's apology, and despite the fact that Aussies are supposedly accepting of people regardless of their cultural background? Aussies, who supposedly have this notion of "fair go" for all? Well I'll tell you. The reason is that White Aussies are quite happy to get along with anyone as long as they are like themselves. As soon as they claim "difference", all of a sudden there's a problem and the barriers come down, because it's "unimportant" all that stuff, right? As long as you have yer slip of paper to say you're an "Australian" then you should have nothing to complain about!
No, Dow, I think there is definitely something about "Australian-ness", how people relate to this land and this environment, how they relate to each other, and a whole lot of really good, sound and positive humanitarian cultural values. There is also the added benefit of being regarded as "Australian" as soon as you get your citizenship, and not be discriminated against just because you weren't born here. That's another Australian cultural trait, in my view anyway.
I don't think there would be too much you could "make me understand", Dow. I suspect it might be the other way around actually, but hey, that's just my view.
Why do you actually keep saying that what you say also applies to the Brits? That's not something to do with your view that Australians are somehow all Brits or something is it?
Now, Dow, I have checked the nasdaq, everything is great, my triple trophy and multiple gold medal Australian chardonnay is done now, and you don't then mix that with 25 year old malt.
So it is time for me to go, because it is late.
And Dow, you should know that I started this thread with you especially in mind, and here you came along, hook, line and sinker. Very predictable, mate. Good craic though.
Cheers. Here's to you.
"No, Dow, I think there is definitely something about "Australian-ness", how people relate to this land and this environment, how they relate to each other, and a whole lot of really good, sound and positive humanitarian cultural values."
So do I suddenly get blessed with all these values and ways of relating to people and the land when I get that slip of paper and become an Australian citizen?
I think you need to put a whole load more thought into your argument, maaaate.
Wow...this started off as a bit of harmless banter. There seems a bit of an edge to it now. FWIW my own experience - I'm Scots but have lived in London for 20-odd years so I also think of myself as a Londoner. And I think that's both a fair assessment and is OK anyway. As I mentioned above, I'm not entirely enamoured by certain groups of other Londoners who not only fall into certain stereotypes but actively strive to become the stereotype. And this is something that is sometimes forgotten in this type of discussion - some people craving an identity actually try and become a caricature of what their stereotype is. I've seen it in London with Scots, Irish, Caribbeans...even Geordies! (Although Dow always points out he is a Northumbrian, not a Geordie...errr, ok, if you say so....)
Hang on a minute, all I ever hear in Canada is that it's the best country on the planet, but all of a sudden Australia is the best, wait no, it's now New Zealand... I'm confused, can somebody help ?
"So do I suddenly get blessed with all these values and ways of relating to people and the land when I get that slip of paper and become an Australian citizen?" (Dow)
Doesn't sound like you would, no, Dow. I never said *you* would, in case you didn't notice. You'll just have a slip of paper that says you are Australian. You'll just have to settle for that. You have to work hard on the attitude side of things, but hey, that's your issue.
Patkiwi, you will hear that type of propaganda the world over - don't be fooled. Australia is the best country. Just ask all the New Zealanders who migrate to Australia. Is there anyone left in NZ? Although, I guess Dow, might be right, being the authority that he is, that NZ is a whole lot better - is that why he lives in Australia.
DD, "all these values and ways of relating to people and the land" that's what "Australian" means. If you don't have that, and you certainly don't get it from citizenship, then you're not Australian. And you don't have to be to live in Australia.
And besides the only thing Aus has on NZ is the choons scene.
Fortunately for people in Australia, the law says that even if you don't have all those values, etc, if you have the piece of paper (if you weren't born here), then you are in fact Australian, kjay.
You see that is what makes Australia different. I can think of many countries, kjay, where, even if you had citizenship from the piece of paper, people there would not accept you as a citizen, because you don't think like the people there, or you don't have such and such genealogical background, or a particular skin colour, etc. That sort of thing happened in Nazi Germany, people who were born there were nevertheless persecuted and killed.
I wonder, for example, if I was granted British citizenship, how many people there would regard me as British, having been born and lived my life in Australia, and what might be the ramifications of that for me living there.
You can certainly acquire the values, etc, that you refer to, but at law, in this country, if you acquire citizenship, you are Australian. You see, so Dow, for example can think whatever he likes about Australia, and not have those values, etc, but when he gets his citizenship papers, he is Australian.
What people think "Australian-ness" means is something else, and they are entitled to their views of what that is, whether it exists, or not, and as you can see I certainly have my own views about it too.
It is just that the government, when it gives people a piece of paper to say they are Australian, are not telling people how to think. That's the actual fact, kjay.
Ahh. I AM a native Sydneysider DD. Born in Parramatta Hospital a time back. Did my apprenticeship in Regent st Chippendale. Lived in Clovelly and was nearly sodomised
in the Nxxtown hotel. My dad owned a pub next to the brewery.
I know what to say and where to say it. Its not the words, its the delivery that can can land you in the poo!
Agree, chuneboi. I just wouldn't be chancing the words and rely on the delivery alone in some circumstances. Not everyone might understand the delivery. But hey, that's just my opinion.
You got me thinking overnight, DD. Y'know what? If your views are not unique, and I find that what you've said is accepted as self-evident over here, I'm seriously going to consider *not* getting citizenship, just on principle. It'll mean I'll never be able to vote, but I object to being forced to make a choice between my right to vote and my right to identify myself in any way I wish whilst I am in your country. In the end it's your way of disempowering me as an immigrant, and I really resent that. I'm sure many immigrants from other countries feel the same way. Some of them may not be able to express their feelings because of a lack of proficiency in English, and some of them may be locked up in detention centres in the outback with nobody there to listen to them even if they did have something to say.
"Well, Jim, Irish malt doesn't generally have an 'age' does it?"
I was challenging the ignorance of that statement, DD. And yes, those whiskeys are as good as any. Different from Scotch, and absolutely gorgeous.
As for the tarry muck that is laughlingly called "Australian wine", give me proper Italian or Spanish any day. Anything other than Australian. Or, indeed, any other Third World wines.
benhall, you clearly don't know much about Australian wines, apart probably from the cheapos that are on British shelves which you pay a lot more for than we would here *if* we bought it, which many don't. You have to know, ben, that you don't get the best Australian wines there. We get them here.
As for the whiskeys, some of those I have tried, others don't appear to be very widely available at all, maybe they are targeted to the tourist trade in Ireland. In any event, I have generally gone for the Macallan, Glenlivit, Laphraoig, Lagavulin, Bushmills.
well said, kjay, being an Australian citizen doesn't define your identify (depending on what you mean by identity), it just makes you Australian in the eyes of the law.
Now, Dow, no one is forcing you to take out or not take out Australian citizenship. That is entirely your decision.
No one is saying that you have to adopt any particular way of thinking as a prerequisite to taking out citizenship, or after you take it out. All that has been said is that if you take out citizenship, you are regarded as an Australian. If you don't take it out, that's fine too, you can still live in the country.
You can still think what you like about Australia and Australians even if you do take it out, apart from having to swear allegiance to the country. You don't even have to swear allegiance to the British monarchy any more, which resulted in a huge increase in the number of Irish permanent residents here taking out citizenship.
But, Dow, I think you would find it particularly galling to take out citizenship given your views, and your decision not to go for it is fairly predictable. Imagine having to stand there at the citizenship ceremony with a plastic smile on your face for ages and then have to shake hands and look appreciative.
The government does everything it can to allow you to declare yourself an Australian, or if you don't want to, to let you live here anyway and enjoy the benefits of the place. It's all over to you whether you want to become an Australian, no one else. You have to take responsibility for your own choice there, Dow.
I think your main issue with the whole thing is the way in which you are choosing to define what being "Australian" is. But, hey, that's your prerogative too. I just wouldn't want to be living my life in a bind like that.
Right. Being an Australian citizen does not mean you are Australian. It simply means that you are a resident of Australia who has access to other privileges such as the right to vote there. Why should it entail taking on other stuff like how people are supposed to relate to each other and the environment, and whatever "humanitarian cultural values" are supposedly thought to be "sound and positive". That's assimilation, which is freaky. Isn't it?! I'd like to think that I can relate to people in my own way, whether they be Aussies or fellow immigrants, and I'd like to think that I can relate to the environment in my own way too, by respecting it in a way that I see fit, not in a way that would prove my "Australian-ness" to someone like Duijera Dubh. And as for the sound and positive humanitarian cultural values: one word for you - "Woomera".
"All that has been said is that if you take out citizenship, you are regarded as an Australian"
By whom, exactly?
What you say implies that being "Australian" is no more than having an Aussie passport. Yet you go on about "Australian-ness" further up the thread. That's a massive contradiction, DD.
Unless you deny that "Australian-ness" exists as a reality itself. Then I'd understand what you're saying. You'd be wrong, but at least I'd understand your argument.
No, Dow, let me say it again, just to be clear:
Being an Australian citizen makes you an Australian. That's the law here. That's the right that's conferred on you by taking out citizenship. You are more than just a resident who has access to other privileges. Have a look at the citizenship oath.
The problem in your argument is the duality of what you think "Australian" means. You can become an Australian, you don't have to adopt the cultural values. I would have thought that's fairly clear isn't it?
Australia is a very humanitarian culture, Dow. It's a constant, politics is what changes.
I don't care what the citizenship oath says. Being an Australian citizen makes you an Australian citizen, plain and simple. It does NOT make you an Australian.
Yes, I believe Australian-ness exists as a reality in itself. You could actually have that and still not hold citizenship. I know you don't agree with that, many do, many don't. That's up to you.
If you take out Australian citizenship, you'll be regarded as an Australian, regardless of whatever you think Australian-ness is.
You've got a faulty premise, around what you think being "an Australian" is. Whether you like it or not, if you take out Australian citizenship, the law will regard you as Australian. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter what you think, Dow, you see. That's the deal.
And if you don't care what is in the citizenship oath, do you think you should be going for citizenship? It's an oath, you notice.
"It doesn't matter what you think, Dow, you see. That's the deal."
And therein lies the problem. At least Australian law seems to reflect public opinion on this. Doesn't matter how the immigrant thinks or feels. Pity, you guys could do so much better than this.
I'm sorry your own Australian-ness is so meaningless to you, DD. Your mistake is to assume that because of that, other people's Chineseness/Indianness/Englishness/whatever will be equally meaningless to them. If being Australian means that you think all you have to do to accept someone from another culture is to make them swear an oath and hand them a bit of paper, then I definitely don't want to be a citizen of your country, nice though it is.
I'm printing myself out a copy of this thread. It's been very revealing for me. It explains a lot of the odd conversations I've had with Aussies over the years I've been here.
Dow, don't just print it out...read it over and over. Put it in a frame and put it on your wall. If you can get the meaning, it will be very helpful to you, I am sure.
Again, Dow, you have a penchant for trying to impute things to people that they haven't said. That means "trying to put words in other people's mouths". You tend to do that for your own ends.
I never said that my own Australian- ness is meaningless - you did.
But it's not what I think, Dow. If *you* choose to take a citizenship of this country *you* will be regarded as Australian by the law. You've been told about ten times now, I think, Dow.
And it doesn't matter to anyone whether you want to be a citizen or not. It will still be a very nice country whether you are a citizen or not. That's what's important. It doesn't depend on you, Dow.
Chinese man: "Your honour, my boss discriminates against me because I'm Chinese. He not pay me for 6 weeks now"
Judge: "Are you an Australian citizen?"
Chinese man: "Yes I got it in 2004"
Judge: "Well, you're not even Chinese then, you're Australian, so go and tell him it's ok there's no problem, you're actually an Aussie, and I promise you he won't bother you anymore".
Chinese man: "but my boss know I'm an Australian citizen I had to show him my passport when I got the job".
Judge: "Well then in that case he can't possibly be discriminating against you for being Chinese if he knows you're an Aussie".
Chinese man: "Every day when I walk past, does this rhyme, you know, 'Chinky chinky chinaman went to milk a cow'. I think he definitely discriminating against me for being Chinese".
Judge: "Well, in the eyes of the law, you're an Australian, and Australians are great, so you're safe, you don't have to be worried anymore, and you don't have to be embarrassed about being Chinese".
Chinese man: "It's not that I'm embarrassed about being Chinese, it's..."
Well, you certainly sound like you have interesting informants, Jim. If it was the oldest, why wouldn't you put the year on it?Who does the chemist work for I wonder?
And, out of interest, I've had wine from a so-called specialist Australian wine dealer - expensive stuff - trying to persuade me that some of it wasn't muck. About the same price as a half decent Barolo, at about £30 sterling a bottle. It was muck.
Yes, benhall, I know what goes on over there with Australian wine. Just because something is expensive because a "specialist" says it should be, doesn't necessarily follow that it is good stuff. What the hell was the brand?
There are reasonable stand-bys in your off licenses and supermarkets last time I was there. They are good, but still overpriced compared to here - no doubt a lot to do with import duties, etc, and that's also why you don't get the really good stuff from here, because it would end up being far too expensive in your shops.
Yes, a lot of the posts are mine, ben, but hey do you expect me not to respond to the posts that are put there. I only put a simple message at the top, then got avalanched by Dow. Dow is responsible.
Sorry But the man in Question has since died , But he was top
chemist in ballylumford power station - and for his- Brain's
still love ITM played tenor banjo Taught me many good tunes
and was a fine player - Anyway his fav tipple was Whiskey
So he managed to get this project - And was allowed into
bushmills distilery to annilise and stuff like that ,,,And the end
they where giving him free crates of the stuff,, Dont know what
he found out- lol...He finnished up by telling us about the black bush,,See post above,,And that Ireland was first to Produce
Whiskey,, followed by the scots - And the rest of the World just
joined the party,,After more research he said he beleaved The
Old Bushmills Distilrery ,, was the oldest one still around..
As they say in Northern Ireland - -
Well, you're a brave man, Jim, for gettin in the middle of who started whiskey first, the Irish or Scots. Jayz, man!
Anyway, sounds like the Black Bush ain't all bad - if you like wine yeah? Although if they're givin' away crates of it, tis a worry to me alright. And I will have words with my friend from Belfast who has given me this Black Bush for sure. (He don't drink though, so maybe that's the problem eh.)
It might be 'liquor' whiskey it is, Jim. Fortified whiskey. Like a fortified, liquor port. Helps it keep I believe, although I did not think that whiskey needs that, it is probably just to taste, if it is a second.
Now, if it was a lacquer whiskey, ye have me worried now.
I think I have seen this one here, Jim. Thanks.
Did you see their link on Black Bush? It says it has been kept in sherry casks. That is what they do with Macallan.
Makes it sweet. Maybe that is the talk of the wine.
And I would recommend to the Sydney ITM players to get a nice glass of Bushmills, sit back - slow down - and watch Jim's you-tube tune. Very nice it is.
I was just in a pub in Copenhagen and the very Nordic-looking barmaid asked me what I would like.
"Have you got a Black Bush?" I said.
"No, I'm a natural blonde"
"
And I would recommend to the Sydney ITM players to get a nice glass of Bushmills, sit back - slow down - and watch Jim's you-tube tune. Very nice it is." DD
Oh please DD - slow down? You have no idea what sydney sessions are like at the moment, I havent seen you around in 8 years or something, you have absolutely no idea what is going on a the moment here so you really shouldnt be telling us to slow down if you have no clue about how we play, where we play and who we are And just to prove my point I will now list some people who are regular sydney players and we will see if you know them at all- although I can safetly guess that you dont;
Cory-box,
Ken- guitar,
John-banjo,
BenMc-flute, bodhran
BenS -flute, guitar,
Sam - fiddle,
Ivan-fiddle,
Elaine-flute
and for your info Dow plays very steady, not fast at all
please please please get your facts straight before you start telling people what to do.
That's great, bb. Yes, I do know a number of the players, including yourself of course.
I recommend Jim's you-tube as well. Very nice steady pace and rhythm.
Now, now - lets be honest, how could you know those people? i made them up.
Thanks for your tips on how to better myself as a player - I'll be sure to check out the youtube clip.
I agree, and I'm afraid that it is the style we choose, anyhow every one has a different idea on what fast is, I play way faster than my husband, and think he is on the slower side, but I'm sure alot of people think he plays fast....
DD: "No, Dow, I think there is definitely something about "Australian-ness", how people relate to this land and this environment, how they relate to each other, and a whole lot of really good, sound and positive humanitarian cultural values."
Are the remarkably high levels of corruption in public life, politics, the police etc. here in Australia part of Australian-ness?
Is a personality like that of the late Kerry Packer typically Australian?
Are the cultural values promoted by Richard Murdoch typically Australian?
Is the "beer-barns for boofheads and slot machines" culture part of Australian-ness?
Is the poor quality of television "news" here an expression of Australian-ness?
Were the Cronulla riots a manifestation of Australian-ness?
Where in Sydney do I find the best expression of Australian-ness? The Opera House, or Scruffy Murphys? Or the Block in Redfern?
As a European citizen, I ask as I am still trying to make sense of the place I now live.
During the Cronulla riots we had a reminder of the
popular definition of "Australian". It's a person of northern
European appearance who speaks English with an Australian
accent.
You often get this in the Aussie media - a crime suspect on the
run is "Australian" in appearance -- that means a
white guy, not an Aboriginal guy. I think we are improving though.
If you walk around the Sydney CBD it's almost as diverse as NYC.
It makes this old definition laughable.
Australia is one of the best countries to live in, mind you.
It's not the "greatest", whatever that means, but it's one of the
best for sure. I won't be returning to the USA when I retire.
I get the impression that the vast majority of immigrants to this country don't return home at least permanently. On the other hand, it also seems to me that Australian ex-pats who go to live and work overseas, generally return to Australia eventually.
Then you hear them say they appreciate the Australian culture.
As for people who come here and seem to hate it, but then don't return home, if they have that choice, and choose to live their life here, that mystifies me. What a way to live your life!
Agree geoff, very tough call finding a uniformly accepted definition of 'culture'. Maybe that's why some people find it so easy to say one doesn't exist. People vote with their feet, I guess, if they say they return to Australia because they like the 'culture', I guess they know what they're talking about.
Could so many people be wrong?
"Keep working at it, Ling, look for the positives as well, otherwise you end up unhappy. Do you know of any positives?"
Plenty. It's the very idea of "Australianness" as some kind of thing in itself that I can't follow. But then as a Buddhist I've been trained to see that nothing is a thing in itself.
"Legally Australian" - that makes sense as a description of someone with citizenship. "Australain culture" - I not only don't know what it is, I can't imagine how anyone would go about trying to identify it. (That's one of the positives of this place.)
I was going to add that I don't know why they would try, but then I remembered that people like Howard and Hanson (sorry to keep on about the negatives) would try to do it for cheap political advantage.
"Australain culture" - I not only don't know what it is, I can't imagine how anyone would go about trying to identify it. (Ling)
I think you can do whole tertiary courses on the subject, Ling, mostly at the more left-leaning universities, I believe. Maybe Howard and Hanson should go do them, eh, then they'd have a ticket to say they knew what they were talking about.
"Australianness" - interesting term. Whole range of beliefs about it by the look of it.
Consider a person of Lebanese descent who grew up in Lakemba, and who has never been outside of Australia. "Australianness" is what makes him different to his parents/grandparents in terms of his culture, language, mindset and world view. Identification with his folks, and everything they've taught him at home during his childhood years is his "Lebaneseness", and that's what makes him different to other Australians who are not of Lebanese descent. Both his "Lebaneseness" and his "Australianness" make him different to me, and that's great. Both qualities are nothing to be scared of. There's nothing discriminatory about them. They just describe the cumulative result of years of immersion in a particular culture, and the effect that has on human character. If we were all the same then the world would be a boring place to be. Howard and Hanson most likely wouldn't agree with me, but hey.
Australian culture is a work in progress, more than anywhere else I've been.. Anyone who reckons they can pinpoint it in a person or a moment, is either ten years to late as geoffmc said, or myopic.
Dow, in your Lakemba person, you missed the third bit. His "Lebanese-Australianness" makes Australia different, just a bit than it was before. And so it goes.
Australia culturally is a node on the network of english-speaking
nations. What binds us is shared pop culture and tolerance
of diversity. It's already too late for a unique Australian culture to
develop; the trend is actually in other direction towards unity with
this anglo network. But what do I know - I'm no anthropologist!
"Australian culture is a work in progress, more than anywhere else I've been.. Anyone who reckons they can pinpoint it in a person or a moment, is either ten years to late as geoffmc said, or myopic."
So what do you do? Do you just deny its existence and call anything and everything Australian, including Poms who happen to have Aussie citizenship? Or do you delve deeper in search of what "Australianness" is? I don't mean by categorising characteristics - I mean taking a good look at yourself and finding out who you are. I think unless you delve a bit to find yourself, there's no point in being human. You might just as well be a cockroach or something. At least you'd have a better chance of survival.
You’re keen, Dow, have to say that. You must be getting something out of this, if you’re still investing all this time and effort here. That’s fine.
Don’t worry, you’re not confusing me, and when you do, it isn’t for the reasons you might think.
See, here’s an interesting thing – we are fortunate in my family to have had, for whatever reason, many people over generations who have taken a great interest in recording our family’s history here right back to 1788, in meticulous detail. In fact there are organisations here of similarly-minded families, so there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people in Australia today who are able to communicate, if they so wished, with the descendants today of other families and individuals who arrived here way back then since. I only say this because it gives a perspective on some issues being talked about here. In some branches of this family, for example, you can see the descendants of English people where we know there has been only intermarriage with others of similar background. In other branches we know there has been intermarriage with people of ‘non-English’ background, principally Irish, but also French, Lebanese, Scottish, Indian, Maltese, etc. Like many others, this is a very large extended family in Australia, and includes some surprisingly familiar names in Australia, one of which has already been used in this thread. I would have to say, just in my observation and opinion, that there what appears to me to be differences between some of these groups, a bit hard to define, but there nevertheless. This might be what is being called here “thisness” or “thatness” (a problematic category no doubt, but being used here for want no doubt of a better term).
This could no doubt require a very long dissertation, but perhaps suffice to say that these people are all Australians, and have a commonalty, despite these seeming differences, which seems to come from being here. It is not just a loyalty to the country, but something else as well, an identification with the actual country, the land, or something else, and it seems to me that it is an identification or a consciousness which is increasing as a general trend among the descendants of those who originally arrived from Europe.
For myself, for example, I have always found a very natural affinity with Aboriginal people. I think I understand what they mean when they talk about the land and how they relate to it. I suspect, and this is just a supposition about fact, not having a go at Dow or anything, that I would have more affinity with Aboriginal Australians than I would with Dow right now.
Nevertheless, if Dow became a citizen, he would, in my view anyway be an Australian every bit as much I he seems to think I am. He may not have the same “…ness” as he might think I have, but for someone in his situation, being an immigrant to this country, that is entirely to be expected. It is his descendants who are likely to have that “…ness”, as we now have. It is always extremely difficult being the first person to come to a new country. My own family and all others so far as I can see, have exactly the same experience. But they are all extended, these days, the invitation to be Australian, and can choose that or not at their own discretion.
Now, please, I am going back to my cup of Bushells extra strong tea and spring roll, so I won’t be able to type anymore for a while or I’ll greasy up my keyboard. (Chicko rolls are for plebs, Bren).
Right, so how would you think Aboriginal Australians would feel if one day you laid claim to "being Aboriginal", just because you live in the same country and you feel a natural affinity with them? I think they'd probably laugh at you. Same with me. If I took citizenship and you told me till you were blue in the face "you are Australian, you are Australian", I'd simply laugh at you, and say "no I'm not, no I'm not".
"It is his descendants who are likely to have that “…ness”, as we now have"
I think now you're starting to get it. The reason why my descendants would be Australians is because they'd be immersed in your culture from birth. They'd talk like Aussies, they'd act like Aussies, they'd have Aussie schoolfriends, they'd have grown up watching Aussie TV etc etc. Yes, they'd be Australians. I, however, will never be till the day I die. Not that I think Australians are bad - they're lovely - it's just I'm not one.
I actually wouldn't claim to be 'aboriginal', Dow. That is a term applied by the English to the indigenous inhabitants of the country, just to be clear on that. In my observation, I think indigenous people are very accepting of people, especially those who understand or want to understand the land like they do. You don't just walk up and "claim" this or that. You might have a joint affinity. Our family always has, well documented.
I have always "got it", Dow. You are the one using terms like "Australian-ness" to get out of the jamb you get yourself into. *I* won't be telling you, nor will anyone else probably, that you are Australian if you get citizenship - remember, no one gives a rats really. The government will be telling you that; so that if anyone tells you you aren't, even yourself, they will be wrong.
All joking aside, I think Kiwis are much less flimsy in their cultural self-identification than Aussies are. They don't seem to have a weird complex about it. They're Kiwis, and if anyone tries to tell them they're Aussie, they'll point out to the contrary, using varying degrees of psychological or physical violence against the accusor I know a few Kiwis here in Sydney, and they *know* they're not Australian, even if they have citizenship. They might have taken on some Aussie characteristics over the years, but they're still different. Talking generally here, but they've grown up in very different surroundings. They have a different mindset. They see the world differently to Australians. They have a different (darker and quirkier?!) sense of humour, and their language is different - not just the obvious accent differences, but also in what they *choose* to say. Yeah, Kiwis get it.
All of what you say, Dow, about Kiwis refers to the first immigrants. The next and subsequent generations will likely not think like that. That is what can cause a lot of problems in families when they migrate here, not just Kiwis, but from everywhere, and for way back into our history. Islamic people are the ones who are currently going through a particularly bad time with these and other sorts of issues.
"The next and subsequent generations will likely not think like that. That is what can cause a lot of problems in families when they migrate here, not just Kiwis, but from everywhere, and for way back into our history."
Now I feel like you've finally got it The subsequent generations will be culturally Aussie, and will therefore be Australians, albeit with some Kiwi characteristics, especially if they're the next generation (e.g. they might use certain expressions peculiar to NZ which they heard their parents using when they were kids, or they might continue to follow certain traditions peculiar to NZ until adulthood).
Well, I always got it, Dow, long before you started on about it. It has just taken you a long time to realise that, and get your terminology sorted out, and what you mean by it.
I seem to remember you being too busy calling me "Aussie boy", and maaate, and asking whether I was eating meat pies, and all that sort of stuff, to be really concentrating on what I was trying to say.
My terminology has always been consistent. We seem to agree on what defines "Australian-ness", but where we differ is how we define "Australian". You define it as "holding Australian citizenship by law". I think it's meaningless to define it that way (and incidentally also potentially damaging to the collective Australian self-image on a societal level) to think of it in those terms. My term "Australian" is simply the adjectival eqivalent of "Australianness", which is the corresponding noun. No confusion there. It's pretty logical really.
"I seem to remember you being too busy calling me "Aussie boy", and maaate, and asking whether I was eating meat pies, and all that sort of stuff, to be really concentrating on what I was trying to say."
That's part of my "Englishness" - it's obligatory to look down on Aussies as lesser beings. Calling them "boy" is particularly effective in its condescension
No, Dow...once again...*I* don't define it like that...the Australian Government defines "Australian" as someone who holds Australian citizenship (or was born here). If you think the government is doing damage with such a definition, I think many people in this country would actually agree with you. Your definition of the word isn't recognised in law in this country, and I don't really think it should be.
After all, Jewishness in Nazi Germany, even though the people were born in German, was used against them. See the problem with that. It is suspectible to racist interpretation, albeit under the guise of something else.
Your "Englishness" would be pretty clear to a lot of people on this board, I'd say, Dow. I notice that not a lot of English people seem to come to your aid though, especially when you call them whinging poms. Calling people 'boy' would be particularly condescending to some people, especially if you called a black person in the United States that way, don't you think?
I'm very comfortable where I stand viz a viz your good self, Dow. I think you know that deep down, or maybe not that deep down.
And by the way, just for Patkiwi, in case he doesn't know, Stewart Island, the largish island at the bottom of NZ is named after Capt Stewart, Scottish mariner, a forebear of mine, who was commissioned by the government here in the 1830s or so to explore and map the place. Came back to Sydney, then disappeared on a voyage of exploration so the only record goes. Family seems to think he may actually have gone back to NZ, and got himself a few tats. If that's the case, I'd have a few NZ cousins, I'd imagine.
Hmm, you're really still not getting it. The Australian Government should define Australian Citizenship as a "person who is a Citizen of Australia", not as "Australian". The Australian Government should not be meddling in what's "Australian" and what's "un-Australian". That's a whole 'nother matter, and it's only one that a government has control of if it holds too much power over its citizens and has a knack for propaganda and spin.
In short, a government has the right to say who has the right to vote, but it doesn't have the right to define what's Australian and what's not. That happens all by itself, and it is created, maintained and developed by the people themselves.
"Your "Englishness" would be pretty clear to a lot of people on this board, I'd say, Dow. I notice that not a lot of English people seem to come to your aid though, especially when you call them whinging poms. Calling people 'boy' would be particularly condescending to some people, especially if you called a black person in the United States that way, don't you think?"
That's very un-Australian of you, DD
I thought Aussies were supposed not to take themselves too seriously, and be able to laugh at themselves. You don't even see the irony in my lampooning my own "Englishness" by using the word "boy"? Dearie me!...
Unfortunately, the government doesn't agree with you, Dow.
What you think the government *should* do, is not what they have done. In your position, given your views, yes, I would say you will find it particularly galling to have to take out citizenship, because then the government will label you an "Australian".
And if I recall correctly, it was a Labour Government that brought in that definition - the Hawke government, but I stand to be corrected on that.
It's not a matter of me getting it, Dow. Tell the government. Why burden people here with it. Remember - most of them don't give a rats whether you become a citizen or not.
Yep, the government here has the right, and it has exercised the right to define you as an Australian. LOL.
You're not a happy chappy with that, Dow, I know. I would just love to see your face at the citizenship ceremony, getting your certificate and having to shake hands in appreciation.
Will you invite me along, I can take a few photos for you.
I thought Aussies were supposed not to take themselves too seriously, and be able to laugh at themselves. You don't even see the irony in my lampooning my own "Englishness" by using the word "boy"? Dearie me!... (Dow)
Aww, it's late, Dow, and I'm over laughing at you. Must have missed that one.
The government doesn't agree with me? Err, SO?? I'm sure the government would disagree with me on a great many things. It's not like I can do anything about it anyway. I'm not even allowed to vote in your country.
So? So you will have to be what they tell you you are going to be - an Australian. (It's not me telling you, Dow, don't forget that...we don't give a rats remember). No you can't do anything about it, except not take citizenship. No, you can't vote here unless you're Australian, even if you had "Australian-ness", which you say you don't have anyway, and anyway, the government doesn't recognise that.
Tis a bind, isn't it, Dow. Whatcha gonna do, Dow boy.
Hey actually I'm now interested to know what exactly the oath says, and all the paperwork. Does it *actually* say "You are now Australian" or "You are now an Australian", or does it just say "You are now an Australian citizen"? In my book there's a huge difference. One's really insulting and stupid because it's wrong, and the other is really great because I get the right to vote.
Stewart Island ? Oh, you mean Te Punga o Te Waka a Maui... One of NZ's cultural defining qualities is a universal commitment to return the original legitimate placenames to our major and minor natural landmarks. Officially NZ needs to be referred to as NZ/Aoteoroa.
Well, you go look into it, Dow. Gee, how long has it taken to get to that point, if you've been so concerned about it.
You just never know, Dow, you might be able to have Australian citizenship and not be an Australian, and then all your problems will be over. LOL.
I'm glad I was born here, mate, looking at all the mental hoops you are putting yourself through.
That's the one, Patkiwi.
Personally, I'd like to see Sydney renamed Eora, the name of the original inhabitants (stand to be corrected on that, just my understanding).
Nah, I'm pretty glad I wasn't born here. A UK passport allows you to enter certain areas of the world with a blase nonchalance that Aussies can only dream of, and roam/work freely to your heart's content.
All you ever needed to know about Australian accents, Dow, but probably didn't. Three types, broad, general and educated/cultural sometimes called.
If you stay here long enough, you'll probably end up with a broad accent. http://members.ozemail.com.au/~macinnis@ozemail.com.au/syd/language.htm
Gee, this port from Rutherglen in Victoria, with part from 90 year old vintage Touriga grapes is absolutely gorgeous.
Hmm. Bottled honey sunshine. Top Australian wine.
Heard of it, Dow?
Believe it is very nice, Patkiwi. Always wanted to go there myself. One of the landmarks is called (by the British anyway) Pegasus Rock, quite a landmark on the northern(?) side of the island. That's the name of Stewart's ship that mapped the place for the NSW government way back then. (Australia wasn't called Australia officially then, it was all called New South Wales). Yes, yes, I know it's boring, but hey, the Brits got here before the French didn't they. Just.
Well, Dow, get cracking on a good general or cultured Australian accent so your kids don't end up with one of those broad, strangulated vowel type Aussie accents.
They will anyway, you know that. Your descendants will be some of the most ocker of Aussies, I'd say, Dow. That's generally what mostly becomes of the descendants of the English here. Unless of course, you take some decisive steps to see that that just does not happen.
This is great craic, thanks Dow.
Well, Dow, try the Chambers Rosewood Vineyard Mount Carmel Port, you can order it on the phone direct from the real friendly fifth generation Aussie winemaker there, old Bill Chambers (he doesn't give a rats about much either, except nice wine, I believe). And I know this will sound gross, but the best way to order it is in a four pack of two litre flagons, only 28 bucks each. Heaven in a bottle, Dow.
Just don't be drinking from a flagon at the session, or people will think you're a derro and through you out of the pub.
Now there's a big choice, Dow - don't have kids so they don't end up with a broad Australian accent.
As if you didn't have enough rough choices to make. Don't raise your kids in NZ, Dow, are you a glutton for punishment?
They will only end up coming over here, and then have to go through what you're going through.
Geez, man, will ye never learn!
I think we should be grateful to Jeremy actually, for not deleting this diatribe. If he did, Dow might never become an Australian...or an Australian citizen...or whatever.
I'm glad it hasn't been deleted too. Maybe we should try and steer it onto the topic of, like, music or something? I was actually thinking that the whole subject of culture and identity amongst immigrants has a lot to do with the music. I'm thinking of the Irish in America, doing their best to maintain their Irishness by playing the music? Kind of clutching at straws, but I can sense Jeremy's finger hovering over the red button marked "OBLITERATE".
Well, it is strange, I do think, why some of us here with apparently so remote a connection with Ireland (or England for that matter) actually like the music.
Once at the Thurles though, I saw a group of Indians come in (the Asian sub-continent Indians, that is, just to clear up any possible confusion for readers). They loved the reels, jigs, the bodhrans, the whole deal. Clapping, jumping around, like it was a revelation to them. Food for thought, I thought.
Long history, this music, I'd say.
I wonder how Trouble in the Kitchen for example would go over in India.
Pretty good, I would have thought.
Well, if they had Indian citizenship, and the law recognised them as Indians as a result (which it might not, I don't know), then yes, probably. Otherwise, it might be a tough call.
I have come late to this discussion - at the end I hope. Two opposing views held to the end, agreeing to differ. I thought this site was about music - ITM in particular. The ideas surrounding national identity are complex and any discussion should accept the complexity.
It seems clear from the discussion that a trait shared by Australians and Northumbrians is dogged stubbornness!
I suggest reading some background material in preparation for a calm and deep discussion. How about "Nation, Authenticity and Social Difference in Australian Popular Music". G Smith, J Brett in the Journal of Australian Sties 1998? There are thousands of other sources to consult - just google!
Talking about Australians, linguistics and accents, I've never thought there was much to the Australian accent? It consists in making a statement like this? Followed closely by another like this? Then you might say "This is really great wine"?
The Australian accent betrays a peculiarly positive, confident approach to life.
Peculiar indeed
The rising inflection is something I first heard in California, despite me growing up in Australia, then it came to Australian teens, and now is appearing in the UK.
It's peculiar all right, but not peculiarly Australian and it doesn't betray confidence, it sounds very tentative.
About lingwistikz, errr, don't get me wrong Ben, but uuuuummm, but don't you think errr , Naaahhh, forget it, no offence or anyfing, excellent, yeah all right. see ya. ( exits muttering , geez he's not a bad bloke , eh?.....etc)
Cag - Things have improved Bren, but it's still there -
I hear it on TV occasionally, but haven't seen it recently in the
Canberra Times or The Australian. It came up all the time
during the Cronulla riots coverage.
Try a few google searches like these examples to see where it comes up on the 'net
I admit, I didn't find as much on google as I expected, but
most newpaper indexes are proprietary - not searchable
this way. I'll have a go on Factiva and some other ones
tomorrow to satisfy your curiosity and mine
That's OK - I agree with cag anyway. You might hear people saying it in a voxpop - but it's just wishful thinking to say you hear it in official descriptions of crime suspects, unless it's a direct quote from a witness.
I did have my friend's Italian father commanding me to "Speak Australian!" when I got too enthusiastic with my Doric impressions on my last visit down under though.
Australia to Ireland for sessions
Australia to Ireland for sessions
Stick around guys, 2 hour flights to London in the future.
At this rate, it will be quicker to fly to Ireland from Oz than try to battle the Sydney traffic to get to a session:
http://www.bigpond.com/news/business/content/20080331/2203713.asp
There you go, all you UK-based ITM players, all you need now is Aussie permanent resident status, and you can fly home for weekends! Off you go to Australia House now, before the rush.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
With Aussie PR status, why would you want to fly home for weekends, even if it was possible? I have a couple of days off work - oo, I know, let's get out of this awful sunshine and go to a rainy, grim, horrible country full of annoying whingers and spend my time there, what a great idea
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Funny, y'know, no-one seems to whinge here. The only 'Poms' that whinge are the ones who've gone to Australia ...
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, I never, Dow. It is very nice to hear you say that - not about the plight of your poor English compatriots I mean, unless you were just referring to Ireland - just that at least you appreciate Aussie sunshine. That's a good start, Dow, there is definitely hope for you; and you probably now won't get exported too.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Yes, we know, benhall. What does that tell you.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Exported?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Correct.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I'm glad you think I'd sell.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, maybe, but I don't know what price.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I'm like an Aussie but with a brain. The novelty value might push my price up.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
You mean as in "like an Aussie" or "I'm an Aussie, like!", or not an Aussie? Or like the Aussies who invented that engine to get to London in two hours.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
There seems to be a mistake for Dow to be imported back to the UK will require the payment of taxs ,fees ,duty and other reasonable costs to the UK tax payer .
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
To say nothing of what he will have to say about trying to get through Heathrow.
Tip for Australians: fly to Amsterdam and then Aer Lingus. Very civilised.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
We don't need any more Aussies over here thank you. Sorry, we're full up at the moment.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Key, come off the grass, mate - what do you think it is - bush week? Just because you're not going to win the cricket for about 50 years, no need to come the dummy spit!
Anyway, real Aussies live in Europe.
Me? Been to Europe about six times now, once to England, that was it for me. It's too - English! (Anyway that should change with time now that you're into the European Union.)
And how can you guys put up with those excuses for meat pies and sausage rolls - and warm beer. Geez, chunder material!
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
benhall, what were you saying about whinging poms?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Duijera Dubh - The new plane will have to be called Skippy.
You've heard about the epic b*lls-up of opening day (and thereafter) on Heathrow's new Terminal 5, perhaps?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Oh yeah! World news, I'd say. Heathrow was always a nightmare going back years - enough to make me not fly into England at all ever. Once was enough.
By the look of it there now though, it could be the start of the next English Revolution. What a bloody mess. Really gonna hurt the tourist trade I'd say.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Scotland have never won cricket in any competition, so I don't see why you're making a fuss about that, DD.
If I were to be honest, I'd rather London WAS filled up with Aussies, as they're generally a lot friendlier and easier going than Cockney geezers, rude boys, or hooray henrys, which is what indigenous Londoners seem to be comprised of these days.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Sorry, Key, I thought you were a whinging pom, and I thought I'd have a go at you. They wouldn't expect anything less would they? I mean, even Dow has a go at them. So that's really saying something.
What's a flickin' hooray henry anyway!
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And by the way, Key, tell em to take up the cricket then, they could probably do the poms now that we have softened them up. Really put the boot in while they're down now.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Dow is nearly a Jock anyway.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
and a strapping Jock he would be too.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Waht's hooray Henry?
A posh wenker with no brain and lots of cash, plus Porsche, Maserati Spider or similar. Known to frequent places like Kensington, Chelsea, and so on. Also racist, sexist, classist, everything-ist.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And to think he could have been on the board of Northern Rock by now if he'd stayed at home...
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
They're new to London?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
It's never too late, nicholas. But, nah, Dow likes a different kind of heat, he'll want to stay and fry in sweaty old Sydney. Stir fried Dow with boiled rice.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
No, not new - but there seems more of them these days. Or there are more oiks trying to be like them.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
oiks, geezers and hooray henrys - hmm, glad I live in Oz.
It's ok, the great British recession will shake them out of their trees probably.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I'm not sure how you'd fit inside one of those scramjets unless you're a bluudy pencil. Definitely not if yer swell headed. Its a long way before KML would have to be concerned about a rain of Aussies pouring down in scramjets at Heathrow. If they land with a nose dive any session instrument is going ta get bent.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
If they land in a nose dive it'll be in huge mountains of mislaid passengers' luggage, and everything will be all right.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I love the way the Aussies and British slag off each other's cuisine - "our meat pies and sausage rolls are better than yours". It's no wonder other countries snigger at us behind our backs - the British for being crap and the Aussies for being no better even after a coupla hundred years of trying to be different.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Ah the Brits love it, Dow. Anyway, you can go have a nice Shakespeare's pie next to Kelly's Bar before the session tomorrow night. That's why you really wanted the session there isn't it. I know.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
So, what's wrong with haggis, square sausages, Scotch pies, bridies, Scotch broth, cock-a-leekie soup and Tunnock's caramel logs?
(Apart from the fact that they are all Salmonella-flavoured cholesterol.)
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
...oops and I forgot Barr's Irn Bru...
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
... and black pudding ...
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Clear Drops
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
The only big difference I noticed between UK & Aus food was beetroot with nearly everything. Chocolate ice cream? Yep, beetroot on top....
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
The British are forced to live on horripilant comfort food by the weather - the Aussies don't have that excuse.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
The Aussies try and kid themselves that they eat well by watching The Cook And The Chef (God they annoy me) and Food Safari with Maeve O'Mara so that they can feel smug about how diverse the cuisine is in Australia. Well yes it is if you moved over here from Malaysia or you happen to be a professional chef, but while watching these programs, your average Aussie is eating junk food from the local supermarket and, yes, you guessed it, meat pies and sausage rolls drowned in tomato sauce. Just like their whingey cousins over in the Motherland.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
In fact, the Aussies took everything that was bad about British cuisine and made it their own. They haven't tried (because they're wusses) things like haggis and black pudding. Aaahh Scotch Pies too, Key Maniac Lad knows what good cuisine is all about.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Hey Poms, next time some Aussie tells you British cuisine is crap and that Australia has all this diverse ethnic cuisine, just laugh at them and say "hello? Chiko Roll" and watch them blush and walk away.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Hey, Dow, take a look at the hundreds of restaurants that line King Street right outside your session venue in both directions on both sides of the street.
I have travelled around the world a bit, and I have to say that Sydney and Melbourne have some of the best and varied international cuisine there is. King Street Newtown (Dow's session location) is a prime example. Have you tried any of those restaurants, Dow? Many of them are top class, the best in Sydney, and very reasonably priced, cheap almost, because of all the competition. And yes, Shakespeare's pies, right next to your session venue, is acknowledged and received awards as the best pies in Australia. Sorry, mate, that's just the way it is - Australia wins again. I actually haven't seen any of those cooking shows you seem to hate - I spend my time actually eating in the restaurants, not eating heat-up frozen dinners while watching cooking shows.
Again, Dow, you fall into the trap of trying to define 'an average Aussie' through your own subjective perspective. I get the impression that you are extrapolating what an 'average Aussie' is from your own self-perception.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Hahahaha, see what I mean?! Take all those excellent Thai restaurants on King Street. I've tried every single one of them. Not one of them has an Aussie working as a chef or waiting staff member or anything else. So what's so Australian about it? You Aussies just want to take the credit for everything. You're so desperate you even want Russell Crowe and Mel Gibson!! The *shame*...
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"And yes, Shakespeare's pies, right next to your session venue, is acknowledged and received awards as the best pies in Australia. Sorry, mate, that's just the way it is - Australia wins again"
Hey I know maybe I could open up "Dow's Shortbread" next to the pie shop. I could win awards for being the best shortbread shop in Australia. All I need is some flour, sugar and butter. All the Aussies in the land would praise me for my amazing culinery skills.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"next time some Aussie tells you British cuisine is crap and that Australia has all this diverse ethnic cuisine..." (Dow)
Yes, that's right, Dow...Australia has all this diverse ethnic cuisine, just like you point out.
That's Australia.
You're caught in the past, Dow, trying to maintain some Anglo-Australian image. You're becoming the image, Dow, can't you see that?
If you keep doing this, you're going to become a grumpy old whinging pom sitting in the corner playing his fiddle, muttering darkly about those bloody Aussies, over your porter.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Hooray Henrys, aka Raas, Sloanes, Oxbridge Rejects (if they haven't gone there), etc.: often loud and preposterous, seldom a menace in their youth. Their women's voices have the distinctive penetrating power of tearing calico. Some of them get dangerous in mid-life - murder of partner, attempts at Boy's Own-style military coups in foreign parts, driving at 190 mph down the M4 on three bottles of brandy, that sort of thing - but they're not likely to roll you over in the street for money for skag. They are very faithful to their dogs.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I had a nice Chana Masala for dinner. Homemade of course. What did you have Aussie boy? Meat pie again? Hahaha
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Lamb tagine actually, Dow - homemade.
I guess your stereotyping efforts just don't fit do they, Dow.
How many of the hundreds of people who own and work in the restaurants in King Street would be Australian citizens do you think, Dow, not just have permanent resident status.
They're Australians, Dow. Sorry if that disappoints you.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Oh, and a nice multiple trophy and gold medal chardonnay - ahm, Australian, of course.
How was your beer?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Being an Aussie citizen does not make you Aussie, DD. This is what a lot of Aussies don't understand because they don't understand what culture is, given that they have never come across it. A lot of people (me included) just want to get Aussie citizenship so they can be allowed to vote, and so that they can have an Aussie passport to make a quicker pass through immigration when coming back into Oz - nothing more.
And I haven't had any beer today - only good single malt. Chardonnay's for sissies.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"being an Aussie citizen does not make you Aussie" (Dow).
It certainly does, Dow. Try making your argument at law. Sorry, you lose.
You see Dow, you use terminology like "Aussie" rather than "Australian" - you have an image in your mind that you want to hold onto so very much, so that you can have a target for your views. What would you do if you couldn't find any stereotypes, Dow? How would you make sense of the country then?
All the best restaurants in the world have chardonnays, Dow.
As for malts, yeah, have a range of 25 year olds. Very nice they are too.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Culture and identity have nothing to do with law.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Ahm, excuse me a minute, Dow. I just have to check the Nasdaq and top up my chardonnay. I'll be right back. Maybe.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"Culture and identity have nothing to do with law" (Dow)
Tell the Tibetans.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I woiuldn't have to - they know that already. They know in their hearts what it means to be Tibetan, regardless of what others are telling them they should be or feel, by law or whatever else.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
<< As for malts, yeah, have a range of 25 year olds. Very nice they are too. >>
Yes but their not Irish and we dont need as much as 25
to make it the Pure Drop.. lol ..Just joking Duijera Dubh..
jim,,,,,,
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Very good, Dow.
So what are you?
(nasdaq is doing just fine, by the way)
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
The problem with White Australia is that people refuse to understand that immigrants might not want to assimilate. They'd like to be themselves thank you very much. White Aussies assume that they're so amazing that everyone wants to be like them, well sorry that just ain't the case. The sooner you realise this the better, imo. Same goes for Britain of course.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And when I say that I'm not just talking about the sinister Aussie Pride people down at Cronulla Beach, I'm talking about a general mentality - something I've come across as an immigrant to your country more often than I feel comfortable with. Sorry, but getting Aussie citizenship does NOT make me an Aussie, or an Australian or anything else.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, Jim, Irish malt doesn't generally have an 'age' does it?
Let me check my Black Bush label...no, no age listed there.
Nice drop though, yes.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Dow, you get Australian citizenship and you will be subject to the laws of this country as an Australian whether you like it or not.
"White Australia", "White Aussies", Dow? When you generalise with that sort of rhetoric, I would have thought that would be racist wouldn't it?
Dow, you sure you couldn't do with another malt right now?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I'm subject to the laws of this country as a permanent resident too, that's fine by me. It doesn't make me Australian though. Doesn't make the Chinese people next door to me Australian either. They're might be here to escape persecution or just for the good weather over here. Don't assume they want to be just like you with different colour skins.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And don't assume I want to be like you just with a different accent. I'm different to you. I come from a different country. My culture and identity are very different to yours. I have a different world view. And that's ok.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I didn't say having permanent residence makes you Australian, it just makes you a permanent resident. If you take up citizenship, you're Australian.
You see, Dow, I don't have a racist view of what being "Australian" is. You do apparently.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Dow, I don't mind if you're not like me, I really don't. I just don't think I want to be like you, with all due respect.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
No, you just have a total lack of understanding of what racism is, due to the overly politically correct bias of your national newspapers and current affairs programs on TV. Being Australian has nothing to do with your race or colour of skin, nor does it have to do with what passport you have. It has to do with your culture and identity. What you're saying is the same as I've heard trotted out as a standard line from countless other Australians: you imply that assimilation is a good thing - "let's all be Australian together and everything will be ok". Well I'd feel more comfortable with "let's all live together at peace in the same country and be who we want to be, not what other people tell us we are".
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
That's fine, Dow, can't see any problem with that.
"Being Australian has nothing to do with your race or colour of skin, nor does it have to do with what passport you have".
Correct, but...the laws of this country provide the latitude that if you have Australian citizenship, you are Australian, that's it.
Not like other countries past and present where even though you have the citizenship papers, you are not recognised as a citizen for some other reason.
You're the one announcing here that 'white Australians', and 'white Aussies' have this or that attitude. As a generalisation, that's plain b*sh*te, Dow, any clear thinking person reading this thread will see that.
I haven't implied anything about assimilation, Dow...you've raised that. Like I've told you before, no one really gives a rats whether you assimilate or not. But - if you get Australian citizenship for the benefits that you obtain from that, you are regarded as an Australian. Now, have a nice time getting your Australian citizenship won't you. LOL.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
See, this is what I would like you to understand, DD. To you, being "Australian" is just about having a bit of paper that states you are an Aussie citizen. It's no more complicated than that, and you seem to enjoy the incomplexity of it. Well, other people see the world differently to you. They see their nationality - their "Chineseness" or their "Italianness" or their "Lebaneseness" as being far more meaningful than a mere slip of paper. When someone turns round and tries to tell them that all that is important to them is meaningless, that's when people get p*ssed off. That's when riots happen and people get hurt. That's also when people make a fuss about Reconciliation. Ever wonder why Australia has never got anywhere with that, despite Rudd's apology, and despite the fact that Aussies are supposedly accepting of people regardless of their cultural background? Aussies, who supposedly have this notion of "fair go" for all? Well I'll tell you. The reason is that White Aussies are quite happy to get along with anyone as long as they are like themselves. As soon as they claim "difference", all of a sudden there's a problem and the barriers come down, because it's "unimportant" all that stuff, right? As long as you have yer slip of paper to say you're an "Australian" then you should have nothing to complain about!
It really is time to get over yourselves.
All of the above also applies to Brits of course.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
No, Dow, I think there is definitely something about "Australian-ness", how people relate to this land and this environment, how they relate to each other, and a whole lot of really good, sound and positive humanitarian cultural values. There is also the added benefit of being regarded as "Australian" as soon as you get your citizenship, and not be discriminated against just because you weren't born here. That's another Australian cultural trait, in my view anyway.
I don't think there would be too much you could "make me understand", Dow. I suspect it might be the other way around actually, but hey, that's just my view.
Why do you actually keep saying that what you say also applies to the Brits? That's not something to do with your view that Australians are somehow all Brits or something is it?
Now, Dow, I have checked the nasdaq, everything is great, my triple trophy and multiple gold medal Australian chardonnay is done now, and you don't then mix that with 25 year old malt.
So it is time for me to go, because it is late.
And Dow, you should know that I started this thread with you especially in mind, and here you came along, hook, line and sinker. Very predictable, mate. Good craic though.
Cheers. Here's to you.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Gee I love this country. Best country on the earth.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
New Zealand's way better.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Oh no. I just finished my malt. Must be time for bed
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Just say this before I go to bed:
"No, Dow, I think there is definitely something about "Australian-ness", how people relate to this land and this environment, how they relate to each other, and a whole lot of really good, sound and positive humanitarian cultural values."
So do I suddenly get blessed with all these values and ways of relating to people and the land when I get that slip of paper and become an Australian citizen?
I think you need to put a whole load more thought into your argument, maaaate.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Wow...this started off as a bit of harmless banter. There seems a bit of an edge to it now. FWIW my own experience - I'm Scots but have lived in London for 20-odd years so I also think of myself as a Londoner. And I think that's both a fair assessment and is OK anyway. As I mentioned above, I'm not entirely enamoured by certain groups of other Londoners who not only fall into certain stereotypes but actively strive to become the stereotype. And this is something that is sometimes forgotten in this type of discussion - some people craving an identity actually try and become a caricature of what their stereotype is. I've seen it in London with Scots, Irish, Caribbeans...even Geordies! (Although Dow always points out he is a Northumbrian, not a Geordie...errr, ok, if you say so....)
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Hang on a minute, all I ever hear in Canada is that it's the best country on the planet, but all of a sudden Australia is the best, wait no, it's now New Zealand... I'm confused, can somebody help ?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Yep.
Ireland is.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
But what about America?
Wouldn't you subscribe to their belief system, as portrayed by Richard Dawkins?
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=4937420956003824678&hl=en
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
The original article seems to be wrongly dated. It says "March 31, 2008 - 2:40PM". Shouldn't it be 12 hours later?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by Lingpupa
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
http://www.whiskyandwines.com/index.php?cPath=32&sort=2a&page=2&osCsid=3ed7344bc98f4a86e0557fe7002fe32f
You're just not drinking the right whiskey, DD. The best is some of the best there is.
btw, for some *real* culinary treats, try Kinsale. If you can put up with the emmets ...
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Globalisation will probably go on to mean Ireland importing Australian whiskey and Australia importing Irish wine...
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"So do I suddenly get blessed with all these values and ways of relating to people and the land when I get that slip of paper and become an Australian citizen?" (Dow)
Doesn't sound like you would, no, Dow. I never said *you* would, in case you didn't notice. You'll just have a slip of paper that says you are Australian. You'll just have to settle for that. You have to work hard on the attitude side of things, but hey, that's your issue.
Patkiwi, you will hear that type of propaganda the world over - don't be fooled. Australia is the best country. Just ask all the New Zealanders who migrate to Australia. Is there anyone left in NZ? Although, I guess Dow, might be right, being the authority that he is, that NZ is a whole lot better - is that why he lives in Australia.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
benhall, are you *sure* those whiskeys are better than a 25 year old Macallan or Smiths Glenlivit?
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
DD, "all these values and ways of relating to people and the land" that's what "Australian" means. If you don't have that, and you certainly don't get it from citizenship, then you're not Australian. And you don't have to be to live in Australia.
And besides the only thing Aus has on NZ is the choons scene.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
An Australian is just a Pom that can swim.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Fortunately for people in Australia, the law says that even if you don't have all those values, etc, if you have the piece of paper (if you weren't born here), then you are in fact Australian, kjay.
You see that is what makes Australia different. I can think of many countries, kjay, where, even if you had citizenship from the piece of paper, people there would not accept you as a citizen, because you don't think like the people there, or you don't have such and such genealogical background, or a particular skin colour, etc. That sort of thing happened in Nazi Germany, people who were born there were nevertheless persecuted and killed.
I wonder, for example, if I was granted British citizenship, how many people there would regard me as British, having been born and lived my life in Australia, and what might be the ramifications of that for me living there.
You can certainly acquire the values, etc, that you refer to, but at law, in this country, if you acquire citizenship, you are Australian. You see, so Dow, for example can think whatever he likes about Australia, and not have those values, etc, but when he gets his citizenship papers, he is Australian.
What people think "Australian-ness" means is something else, and they are entitled to their views of what that is, whether it exists, or not, and as you can see I certainly have my own views about it too.
It is just that the government, when it gives people a piece of paper to say they are Australian, are not telling people how to think. That's the actual fact, kjay.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Very funny, chuneboi, but I wouldn't like to be saying that in some suburbs in Sydney.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Ahh. I AM a native Sydneysider DD. Born in Parramatta Hospital a time back. Did my apprenticeship in Regent st Chippendale. Lived in Clovelly and was nearly sodomised
in the Nxxtown hotel. My dad owned a pub next to the brewery.
I know what to say and where to say it. Its not the words, its the delivery that can can land you in the poo!
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Agree, chuneboi. I just wouldn't be chancing the words and rely on the delivery alone in some circumstances. Not everyone might understand the delivery. But hey, that's just my opinion.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
You got me thinking overnight, DD. Y'know what? If your views are not unique, and I find that what you've said is accepted as self-evident over here, I'm seriously going to consider *not* getting citizenship, just on principle. It'll mean I'll never be able to vote, but I object to being forced to make a choice between my right to vote and my right to identify myself in any way I wish whilst I am in your country. In the end it's your way of disempowering me as an immigrant, and I really resent that. I'm sure many immigrants from other countries feel the same way. Some of them may not be able to express their feelings because of a lack of proficiency in English, and some of them may be locked up in detention centres in the outback with nobody there to listen to them even if they did have something to say.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"Well, Jim, Irish malt doesn't generally have an 'age' does it?"
I was challenging the ignorance of that statement, DD. And yes, those whiskeys are as good as any. Different from Scotch, and absolutely gorgeous.
As for the tarry muck that is laughlingly called "Australian wine", give me proper Italian or Spanish any day. Anything other than Australian. Or, indeed, any other Third World wines.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well la-di-da, bloody stuck-up Pom
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Being an Australian citizen doesn't define a person's identity. Nor should it have to.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
benhall, you clearly don't know much about Australian wines, apart probably from the cheapos that are on British shelves which you pay a lot more for than we would here *if* we bought it, which many don't. You have to know, ben, that you don't get the best Australian wines there. We get them here.
As for the whiskeys, some of those I have tried, others don't appear to be very widely available at all, maybe they are targeted to the tourist trade in Ireland. In any event, I have generally gone for the Macallan, Glenlivit, Laphraoig, Lagavulin, Bushmills.
well said, kjay, being an Australian citizen doesn't define your identify (depending on what you mean by identity), it just makes you Australian in the eyes of the law.
Now, Dow, no one is forcing you to take out or not take out Australian citizenship. That is entirely your decision.
No one is saying that you have to adopt any particular way of thinking as a prerequisite to taking out citizenship, or after you take it out. All that has been said is that if you take out citizenship, you are regarded as an Australian. If you don't take it out, that's fine too, you can still live in the country.
You can still think what you like about Australia and Australians even if you do take it out, apart from having to swear allegiance to the country. You don't even have to swear allegiance to the British monarchy any more, which resulted in a huge increase in the number of Irish permanent residents here taking out citizenship.
But, Dow, I think you would find it particularly galling to take out citizenship given your views, and your decision not to go for it is fairly predictable. Imagine having to stand there at the citizenship ceremony with a plastic smile on your face for ages and then have to shake hands and look appreciative.
The government does everything it can to allow you to declare yourself an Australian, or if you don't want to, to let you live here anyway and enjoy the benefits of the place. It's all over to you whether you want to become an Australian, no one else. You have to take responsibility for your own choice there, Dow.
I think your main issue with the whole thing is the way in which you are choosing to define what being "Australian" is. But, hey, that's your prerogative too. I just wouldn't want to be living my life in a bind like that.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Right. Being an Australian citizen does not mean you are Australian. It simply means that you are a resident of Australia who has access to other privileges such as the right to vote there. Why should it entail taking on other stuff like how people are supposed to relate to each other and the environment, and whatever "humanitarian cultural values" are supposedly thought to be "sound and positive". That's assimilation, which is freaky. Isn't it?! I'd like to think that I can relate to people in my own way, whether they be Aussies or fellow immigrants, and I'd like to think that I can relate to the environment in my own way too, by respecting it in a way that I see fit, not in a way that would prove my "Australian-ness" to someone like Duijera Dubh. And as for the sound and positive humanitarian cultural values: one word for you - "Woomera".
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"All that has been said is that if you take out citizenship, you are regarded as an Australian"
By whom, exactly?
What you say implies that being "Australian" is no more than having an Aussie passport. Yet you go on about "Australian-ness" further up the thread. That's a massive contradiction, DD.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Unless you deny that "Australian-ness" exists as a reality itself. Then I'd understand what you're saying. You'd be wrong, but at least I'd understand your argument.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
No, Dow, let me say it again, just to be clear:
Being an Australian citizen makes you an Australian. That's the law here. That's the right that's conferred on you by taking out citizenship. You are more than just a resident who has access to other privileges. Have a look at the citizenship oath.
The problem in your argument is the duality of what you think "Australian" means. You can become an Australian, you don't have to adopt the cultural values. I would have thought that's fairly clear isn't it?
Australia is a very humanitarian culture, Dow. It's a constant, politics is what changes.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I don't care what the citizenship oath says. Being an Australian citizen makes you an Australian citizen, plain and simple. It does NOT make you an Australian.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Yes, I believe Australian-ness exists as a reality in itself. You could actually have that and still not hold citizenship. I know you don't agree with that, many do, many don't. That's up to you.
If you take out Australian citizenship, you'll be regarded as an Australian, regardless of whatever you think Australian-ness is.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
You've got a faulty premise, around what you think being "an Australian" is. Whether you like it or not, if you take out Australian citizenship, the law will regard you as Australian. Plain and simple. It doesn't matter what you think, Dow, you see. That's the deal.
And if you don't care what is in the citizenship oath, do you think you should be going for citizenship? It's an oath, you notice.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"It doesn't matter what you think, Dow, you see. That's the deal."
And therein lies the problem. At least Australian law seems to reflect public opinion on this. Doesn't matter how the immigrant thinks or feels. Pity, you guys could do so much better than this.
I'm sorry your own Australian-ness is so meaningless to you, DD. Your mistake is to assume that because of that, other people's Chineseness/Indianness/Englishness/whatever will be equally meaningless to them. If being Australian means that you think all you have to do to accept someone from another culture is to make them swear an oath and hand them a bit of paper, then I definitely don't want to be a citizen of your country, nice though it is.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I'm printing myself out a copy of this thread. It's been very revealing for me. It explains a lot of the odd conversations I've had with Aussies over the years I've been here.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Dow, don't just print it out...read it over and over. Put it in a frame and put it on your wall. If you can get the meaning, it will be very helpful to you, I am sure.
Again, Dow, you have a penchant for trying to impute things to people that they haven't said. That means "trying to put words in other people's mouths". You tend to do that for your own ends.
I never said that my own Australian- ness is meaningless - you did.
But it's not what I think, Dow. If *you* choose to take a citizenship of this country *you* will be regarded as Australian by the law. You've been told about ten times now, I think, Dow.
And it doesn't matter to anyone whether you want to be a citizen or not. It will still be a very nice country whether you are a citizen or not. That's what's important. It doesn't depend on you, Dow.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
[In a courtroom]
Chinese man: "Your honour, my boss discriminates against me because I'm Chinese. He not pay me for 6 weeks now"
Judge: "Are you an Australian citizen?"
Chinese man: "Yes I got it in 2004"
Judge: "Well, you're not even Chinese then, you're Australian, so go and tell him it's ok there's no problem, you're actually an Aussie, and I promise you he won't bother you anymore".
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Where did you get that from, Dow?
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Chinese man: "but my boss know I'm an Australian citizen I had to show him my passport when I got the job".
Judge: "Well then in that case he can't possibly be discriminating against you for being Chinese if he knows you're an Aussie".
Chinese man: "Every day when I walk past, does this rhyme, you know, 'Chinky chinky chinaman went to milk a cow'. I think he definitely discriminating against me for being Chinese".
Judge: "Well, in the eyes of the law, you're an Australian, and Australians are great, so you're safe, you don't have to be worried anymore, and you don't have to be embarrassed about being Chinese".
Chinese man: "It's not that I'm embarrassed about being Chinese, it's..."
Judge: "There there. Case dismissed".
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Oh, so you're making it up as you go along, Dow. More b*llsh*te then?
This is what you wish would happen, Dow?
Sounds like you've run out of ideas.
Mate, you better go a play a few tunes. You probably do that better than you do this.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
mmmm ..... Chiko Rolls
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Aussie spring rolls are much better, Bren.
(That should get Dow hopping mad.) LOL.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Duijera Dubh
*Origional Bush Whiskey label =Theres no date on it Because I was told its the oldest Whiskey in the world - By a top chemist
Now you Know -lol
jim,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And Black Bush Is c**p is only Reject Origional whiskey
with wine poured in ,, They did'nt tell you that on the lable either..
jim,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, you certainly sound like you have interesting informants, Jim. If it was the oldest, why wouldn't you put the year on it?Who does the chemist work for I wonder?
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Where are we up to now - 112 posts! Geez you blokes are keen.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, half of those posts are you, DD.
And, out of interest, I've had wine from a so-called specialist Australian wine dealer - expensive stuff - trying to persuade me that some of it wasn't muck. About the same price as a half decent Barolo, at about £30 sterling a bottle. It was muck.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Yes, benhall, I know what goes on over there with Australian wine. Just because something is expensive because a "specialist" says it should be, doesn't necessarily follow that it is good stuff. What the hell was the brand?
There are reasonable stand-bys in your off licenses and supermarkets last time I was there. They are good, but still overpriced compared to here - no doubt a lot to do with import duties, etc, and that's also why you don't get the really good stuff from here, because it would end up being far too expensive in your shops.
Yes, a lot of the posts are mine, ben, but hey do you expect me not to respond to the posts that are put there. I only put a simple message at the top, then got avalanched by Dow. Dow is responsible.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Sorry But the man in Question has since died , But he was top
chemist in ballylumford power station - and for his- Brain's
still love ITM played tenor banjo Taught me many good tunes
and was a fine player - Anyway his fav tipple was Whiskey
So he managed to get this project - And was allowed into
bushmills distilery to annilise and stuff like that ,,,And the end
they where giving him free crates of the stuff,, Dont know what
he found out- lol...He finnished up by telling us about the black bush,,See post above,,And that Ireland was first to Produce
Whiskey,, followed by the scots - And the rest of the World just
joined the party,,After more research he said he beleaved The
Old Bushmills Distilrery ,, was the oldest one still around..
As they say in Northern Ireland - -
''THERE YER NOW.''....lol-
jim,,,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Sorry this was for - Duijera Dubh,,,
Thanks - jim,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, you're a brave man, Jim, for gettin in the middle of who started whiskey first, the Irish or Scots. Jayz, man!
Anyway, sounds like the Black Bush ain't all bad - if you like wine yeah? Although if they're givin' away crates of it, tis a worry to me alright. And I will have words with my friend from Belfast who has given me this Black Bush for sure. (He don't drink though, so maybe that's the problem eh.)
So, now, what do you recommend y'self?
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And I am sorry that the man in question has since gone, Jim.
I hope it was not from the Black Bush anyway.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Duijera Dubh
I recommend The old origional Bushmills Whiskey..
Its not a black suround lable = the old ones just says
Bushmills Whiskey..on it --
TAKE NO SECONDS- Duijera Dubh...
JIM,,,lol..
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Oh and by the way the man in Question did not die of Whiskey.
It was the FAG'S..
jim,,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I will look around for it, Jim. Thank you.
I will take no seconds, and no prisoners either!
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
No good, the fags.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
That's gas playin on your you-tube link, Jim.
Nice easy-go style, pace, very foot tappin stuff, mate. Really liked it.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Duijera Dubh
See - Black Bush is really a whiskey lacquer -Hope I have that
spelt right,,
jim,,,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Duijera Dubh -
Go to this sight - and read top line..Big Bertie
must have been right.. -lol jim,,,,,
http://www.classicwhiskey.com/distilleries/bushmills.htm
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
It might be 'liquor' whiskey it is, Jim. Fortified whiskey. Like a fortified, liquor port. Helps it keep I believe, although I did not think that whiskey needs that, it is probably just to taste, if it is a second.
Now, if it was a lacquer whiskey, ye have me worried now.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Duijera Dubh
Click in blue = Bushmill Irish whiskey ,,,
The right one - lol again,,,
jim
http://www.classicwhiskey.com/whiskey/bush.htm
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
It might be 'liquor' whiskey =
Your Right ,, Dont go for that other one lol. jim,,,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I think I have seen this one here, Jim. Thanks.
Did you see their link on Black Bush? It says it has been kept in sherry casks. That is what they do with Macallan.
Makes it sweet. Maybe that is the talk of the wine.
http://www.classicwhiskey.com/whiskey/blackbush.htm
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Port/Wine - Yes thats what big bertie was talking about,,
jim,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And I would recommend to the Sydney ITM players to get a nice glass of Bushmills, sit back - slow down - and watch Jim's you-tube tune. Very nice it is.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Thanks - and its great to think that maybe the oldest whiskey
in the world is made in my own home county Antrim -
Must get some now - lol
jim,,,,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Cheers then, Jim.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I was just in a pub in Copenhagen and the very Nordic-looking barmaid asked me what I would like.
"Have you got a Black Bush?" I said.
"No, I'm a natural blonde"
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Bren
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Goog joke that - heard it , burnt the T - shirt ,,lol,,
jim,,
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Dow and DD,
You might be interested in this discussion:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Olivia_Newton-John
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by Jameson Stew
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"
And I would recommend to the Sydney ITM players to get a nice glass of Bushmills, sit back - slow down - and watch Jim's you-tube tune. Very nice it is." DD
Oh please DD - slow down? You have no idea what sydney sessions are like at the moment, I havent seen you around in 8 years or something, you have absolutely no idea what is going on a the moment here so you really shouldnt be telling us to slow down if you have no clue about how we play, where we play and who we are And just to prove my point I will now list some people who are regular sydney players and we will see if you know them at all- although I can safetly guess that you dont;
Cory-box,
Ken- guitar,
John-banjo,
BenMc-flute, bodhran
BenS -flute, guitar,
Sam - fiddle,
Ivan-fiddle,
Elaine-flute
and for your info Dow plays very steady, not fast at all
please please please get your facts straight before you start telling people what to do.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by bb
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
That's great, bb. Yes, I do know a number of the players, including yourself of course.
I recommend Jim's you-tube as well. Very nice steady pace and rhythm.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Now, now - lets be honest, how could you know those people? i made them up.
Thanks for your tips on how to better myself as a player - I'll be sure to check out the youtube clip.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by bb
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Oh, bb - who's telling porkies?
I'm not giving you any tips on how to be a better player, bb - I just suggested a very nice you-tube clip.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I was referring to the part where you told Sydney to 'slow down' Not about the youtube clip - which I will deffo check out
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by bb
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Yes, I know. That's a stylistic thing, not about quality of playing - in my humble opinion that is.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I agree, and I'm afraid that it is the style we choose, anyhow every one has a different idea on what fast is, I play way faster than my husband, and think he is on the slower side, but I'm sure alot of people think he plays fast....
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by bb
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Each to their own. Anyway, if you check out the you-tube clip, interested to see what you think - whether it's just a matter or fast or slow.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
DD: "No, Dow, I think there is definitely something about "Australian-ness", how people relate to this land and this environment, how they relate to each other, and a whole lot of really good, sound and positive humanitarian cultural values."
Are the remarkably high levels of corruption in public life, politics, the police etc. here in Australia part of Australian-ness?
Is a personality like that of the late Kerry Packer typically Australian?
Are the cultural values promoted by Richard Murdoch typically Australian?
Is the "beer-barns for boofheads and slot machines" culture part of Australian-ness?
Is the poor quality of television "news" here an expression of Australian-ness?
Were the Cronulla riots a manifestation of Australian-ness?
Where in Sydney do I find the best expression of Australian-ness? The Opera House, or Scruffy Murphys? Or the Block in Redfern?
As a European citizen, I ask as I am still trying to make sense of the place I now live.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Lingpupa
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
most definitely the Opera House
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by geoffmc
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Keep working at it, Ling, look for the positives as well, otherwise you end up unhappy. Do you know of any positives?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
During the Cronulla riots we had a reminder of the
popular definition of "Australian". It's a person of northern
European appearance who speaks English with an Australian
accent.
You often get this in the Aussie media - a crime suspect on the
run is "Australian" in appearance -- that means a
white guy, not an Aboriginal guy. I think we are improving though.
If you walk around the Sydney CBD it's almost as diverse as NYC.
It makes this old definition laughable.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Hup
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Australia is one of the best countries to live in, mind you.
It's not the "greatest", whatever that means, but it's one of the
best for sure. I won't be returning to the USA when I retire.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Hup
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I get the impression that the vast majority of immigrants to this country don't return home at least permanently. On the other hand, it also seems to me that Australian ex-pats who go to live and work overseas, generally return to Australia eventually.
Then you hear them say they appreciate the Australian culture.
As for people who come here and seem to hate it, but then don't return home, if they have that choice, and choose to live their life here, that mystifies me. What a way to live your life!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
generally I reckon when someone thinks they can define a "culture" they are about 10 years too late. can't see the point really
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by geoffmc
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Agree geoff, very tough call finding a uniformly accepted definition of 'culture'. Maybe that's why some people find it so easy to say one doesn't exist. People vote with their feet, I guess, if they say they return to Australia because they like the 'culture', I guess they know what they're talking about.
Could so many people be wrong?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
we will never know if they are right or wrong and it actually doesn't matter
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by geoffmc
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Does to many.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"Keep working at it, Ling, look for the positives as well, otherwise you end up unhappy. Do you know of any positives?"
Plenty. It's the very idea of "Australianness" as some kind of thing in itself that I can't follow. But then as a Buddhist I've been trained to see that nothing is a thing in itself.
"Legally Australian" - that makes sense as a description of someone with citizenship. "Australain culture" - I not only don't know what it is, I can't imagine how anyone would go about trying to identify it. (That's one of the positives of this place.)
I was going to add that I don't know why they would try, but then I remembered that people like Howard and Hanson (sorry to keep on about the negatives) would try to do it for cheap political advantage.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Lingpupa
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"Australain culture" - I not only don't know what it is, I can't imagine how anyone would go about trying to identify it. (Ling)
I think you can do whole tertiary courses on the subject, Ling, mostly at the more left-leaning universities, I believe. Maybe Howard and Hanson should go do them, eh, then they'd have a ticket to say they knew what they were talking about.
"Australianness" - interesting term. Whole range of beliefs about it by the look of it.
Plenty of positives? Like what?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Consider a person of Lebanese descent who grew up in Lakemba, and who has never been outside of Australia. "Australianness" is what makes him different to his parents/grandparents in terms of his culture, language, mindset and world view. Identification with his folks, and everything they've taught him at home during his childhood years is his "Lebaneseness", and that's what makes him different to other Australians who are not of Lebanese descent. Both his "Lebaneseness" and his "Australianness" make him different to me, and that's great. Both qualities are nothing to be scared of. There's nothing discriminatory about them. They just describe the cumulative result of years of immersion in a particular culture, and the effect that has on human character. If we were all the same then the world would be a boring place to be. Howard and Hanson most likely wouldn't agree with me, but hey.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Australian culture is a work in progress, more than anywhere else I've been.. Anyone who reckons they can pinpoint it in a person or a moment, is either ten years to late as geoffmc said, or myopic.
Dow, in your Lakemba person, you missed the third bit. His "Lebanese-Australianness" makes Australia different, just a bit than it was before. And so it goes.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Bren
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Australia culturally is a node on the network of english-speaking
nations. What binds us is shared pop culture and tolerance
of diversity. It's already too late for a unique Australian culture to
develop; the trend is actually in other direction towards unity with
this anglo network. But what do I know - I'm no anthropologist!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Hup
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Bren: "His "Lebanese-Australianness" makes Australia different, just a bit than it was before."
I was actually going to add that, Bren, but I didn't want to confuse Duijera Dubh
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"Australian culture is a work in progress, more than anywhere else I've been.. Anyone who reckons they can pinpoint it in a person or a moment, is either ten years to late as geoffmc said, or myopic."
So what do you do? Do you just deny its existence and call anything and everything Australian, including Poms who happen to have Aussie citizenship? Or do you delve deeper in search of what "Australianness" is? I don't mean by categorising characteristics - I mean taking a good look at yourself and finding out who you are. I think unless you delve a bit to find yourself, there's no point in being human. You might just as well be a cockroach or something. At least you'd have a better chance of survival.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Just ask any Kiwi what "being Australian" means and I think you'll get a pretty clear answer.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
YES, too right Pat
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
You’re keen, Dow, have to say that. You must be getting something out of this, if you’re still investing all this time and effort here. That’s fine.
Don’t worry, you’re not confusing me, and when you do, it isn’t for the reasons you might think.
See, here’s an interesting thing – we are fortunate in my family to have had, for whatever reason, many people over generations who have taken a great interest in recording our family’s history here right back to 1788, in meticulous detail. In fact there are organisations here of similarly-minded families, so there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people in Australia today who are able to communicate, if they so wished, with the descendants today of other families and individuals who arrived here way back then since. I only say this because it gives a perspective on some issues being talked about here. In some branches of this family, for example, you can see the descendants of English people where we know there has been only intermarriage with others of similar background. In other branches we know there has been intermarriage with people of ‘non-English’ background, principally Irish, but also French, Lebanese, Scottish, Indian, Maltese, etc. Like many others, this is a very large extended family in Australia, and includes some surprisingly familiar names in Australia, one of which has already been used in this thread. I would have to say, just in my observation and opinion, that there what appears to me to be differences between some of these groups, a bit hard to define, but there nevertheless. This might be what is being called here “thisness” or “thatness” (a problematic category no doubt, but being used here for want no doubt of a better term).
This could no doubt require a very long dissertation, but perhaps suffice to say that these people are all Australians, and have a commonalty, despite these seeming differences, which seems to come from being here. It is not just a loyalty to the country, but something else as well, an identification with the actual country, the land, or something else, and it seems to me that it is an identification or a consciousness which is increasing as a general trend among the descendants of those who originally arrived from Europe.
For myself, for example, I have always found a very natural affinity with Aboriginal people. I think I understand what they mean when they talk about the land and how they relate to it. I suspect, and this is just a supposition about fact, not having a go at Dow or anything, that I would have more affinity with Aboriginal Australians than I would with Dow right now.
Nevertheless, if Dow became a citizen, he would, in my view anyway be an Australian every bit as much I he seems to think I am. He may not have the same “…ness” as he might think I have, but for someone in his situation, being an immigrant to this country, that is entirely to be expected. It is his descendants who are likely to have that “…ness”, as we now have. It is always extremely difficult being the first person to come to a new country. My own family and all others so far as I can see, have exactly the same experience. But they are all extended, these days, the invitation to be Australian, and can choose that or not at their own discretion.
Now, please, I am going back to my cup of Bushells extra strong tea and spring roll, so I won’t be able to type anymore for a while or I’ll greasy up my keyboard. (Chicko rolls are for plebs, Bren).
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
So, Patkiwi, what does it mean?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Right, so how would you think Aboriginal Australians would feel if one day you laid claim to "being Aboriginal", just because you live in the same country and you feel a natural affinity with them? I think they'd probably laugh at you. Same with me. If I took citizenship and you told me till you were blue in the face "you are Australian, you are Australian", I'd simply laugh at you, and say "no I'm not, no I'm not".
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"It is his descendants who are likely to have that “…ness”, as we now have"
I think now you're starting to get it. The reason why my descendants would be Australians is because they'd be immersed in your culture from birth. They'd talk like Aussies, they'd act like Aussies, they'd have Aussie schoolfriends, they'd have grown up watching Aussie TV etc etc. Yes, they'd be Australians. I, however, will never be till the day I die. Not that I think Australians are bad - they're lovely - it's just I'm not one.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Australians are defined bu their inability to understand New Zealand (ROTFLMAO).
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I actually wouldn't claim to be 'aboriginal', Dow. That is a term applied by the English to the indigenous inhabitants of the country, just to be clear on that. In my observation, I think indigenous people are very accepting of people, especially those who understand or want to understand the land like they do. You don't just walk up and "claim" this or that. You might have a joint affinity. Our family always has, well documented.
I have always "got it", Dow. You are the one using terms like "Australian-ness" to get out of the jamb you get yourself into. *I* won't be telling you, nor will anyone else probably, that you are Australian if you get citizenship - remember, no one gives a rats really. The government will be telling you that; so that if anyone tells you you aren't, even yourself, they will be wrong.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
All joking aside, I think Kiwis are much less flimsy in their cultural self-identification than Aussies are. They don't seem to have a weird complex about it. They're Kiwis, and if anyone tries to tell them they're Aussie, they'll point out to the contrary, using varying degrees of psychological or physical violence against the accusor
I know a few Kiwis here in Sydney, and they *know* they're not Australian, even if they have citizenship. They might have taken on some Aussie characteristics over the years, but they're still different. Talking generally here, but they've grown up in very different surroundings. They have a different mindset. They see the world differently to Australians. They have a different (darker and quirkier?!) sense of humour, and their language is different - not just the obvious accent differences, but also in what they *choose* to say. Yeah, Kiwis get it.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
You know Stewart Island at the bottom of NZ, Patkiwi.
You know why it is named like that?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
All of what you say, Dow, about Kiwis refers to the first immigrants. The next and subsequent generations will likely not think like that. That is what can cause a lot of problems in families when they migrate here, not just Kiwis, but from everywhere, and for way back into our history. Islamic people are the ones who are currently going through a particularly bad time with these and other sorts of issues.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
To be precise, Dow, the word 'aboriginal' is Latin - ab origine.
Same as "Nullarbor" as in Nullarbor Plain. Latin - null arbor = no trees.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"The next and subsequent generations will likely not think like that. That is what can cause a lot of problems in families when they migrate here, not just Kiwis, but from everywhere, and for way back into our history."
Now I feel like you've finally got it
The subsequent generations will be culturally Aussie, and will therefore be Australians, albeit with some Kiwi characteristics, especially if they're the next generation (e.g. they might use certain expressions peculiar to NZ which they heard their parents using when they were kids, or they might continue to follow certain traditions peculiar to NZ until adulthood).
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, I always got it, Dow, long before you started on about it. It has just taken you a long time to realise that, and get your terminology sorted out, and what you mean by it.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I seem to remember you being too busy calling me "Aussie boy", and maaate, and asking whether I was eating meat pies, and all that sort of stuff, to be really concentrating on what I was trying to say.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
My terminology has always been consistent. We seem to agree on what defines "Australian-ness", but where we differ is how we define "Australian". You define it as "holding Australian citizenship by law". I think it's meaningless to define it that way (and incidentally also potentially damaging to the collective Australian self-image on a societal level) to think of it in those terms. My term "Australian" is simply the adjectival eqivalent of "Australianness", which is the corresponding noun. No confusion there. It's pretty logical really.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"I seem to remember you being too busy calling me "Aussie boy", and maaate, and asking whether I was eating meat pies, and all that sort of stuff, to be really concentrating on what I was trying to say."
That's part of my "Englishness" - it's obligatory to look down on Aussies as lesser beings. Calling them "boy" is particularly effective in its condescension
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
No, Dow...once again...*I* don't define it like that...the Australian Government defines "Australian" as someone who holds Australian citizenship (or was born here). If you think the government is doing damage with such a definition, I think many people in this country would actually agree with you. Your definition of the word isn't recognised in law in this country, and I don't really think it should be.
After all, Jewishness in Nazi Germany, even though the people were born in German, was used against them. See the problem with that. It is suspectible to racist interpretation, albeit under the guise of something else.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Your "Englishness" would be pretty clear to a lot of people on this board, I'd say, Dow. I notice that not a lot of English people seem to come to your aid though, especially when you call them whinging poms. Calling people 'boy' would be particularly condescending to some people, especially if you called a black person in the United States that way, don't you think?
I'm very comfortable where I stand viz a viz your good self, Dow. I think you know that deep down, or maybe not that deep down.
And by the way, just for Patkiwi, in case he doesn't know, Stewart Island, the largish island at the bottom of NZ is named after Capt Stewart, Scottish mariner, a forebear of mine, who was commissioned by the government here in the 1830s or so to explore and map the place. Came back to Sydney, then disappeared on a voyage of exploration so the only record goes. Family seems to think he may actually have gone back to NZ, and got himself a few tats. If that's the case, I'd have a few NZ cousins, I'd imagine.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Hmm, you're really still not getting it. The Australian Government should define Australian Citizenship as a "person who is a Citizen of Australia", not as "Australian". The Australian Government should not be meddling in what's "Australian" and what's "un-Australian". That's a whole 'nother matter, and it's only one that a government has control of if it holds too much power over its citizens and has a knack for propaganda and spin.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
In short, a government has the right to say who has the right to vote, but it doesn't have the right to define what's Australian and what's not. That happens all by itself, and it is created, maintained and developed by the people themselves.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"Your "Englishness" would be pretty clear to a lot of people on this board, I'd say, Dow. I notice that not a lot of English people seem to come to your aid though, especially when you call them whinging poms. Calling people 'boy' would be particularly condescending to some people, especially if you called a black person in the United States that way, don't you think?"
That's very un-Australian of you, DD
I thought Aussies were supposed not to take themselves too seriously, and be able to laugh at themselves. You don't even see the irony in my lampooning my own "Englishness" by using the word "boy"? Dearie me!...
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
BTW me calling you "un-Australian" is also irony, just in case you need an explanation for that one too
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Unfortunately, the government doesn't agree with you, Dow.
What you think the government *should* do, is not what they have done. In your position, given your views, yes, I would say you will find it particularly galling to have to take out citizenship, because then the government will label you an "Australian".
And if I recall correctly, it was a Labour Government that brought in that definition - the Hawke government, but I stand to be corrected on that.
It's not a matter of me getting it, Dow. Tell the government. Why burden people here with it. Remember - most of them don't give a rats whether you become a citizen or not.
Yep, the government here has the right, and it has exercised the right to define you as an Australian. LOL.
You're not a happy chappy with that, Dow, I know. I would just love to see your face at the citizenship ceremony, getting your certificate and having to shake hands in appreciation.
Will you invite me along, I can take a few photos for you.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I thought Aussies were supposed not to take themselves too seriously, and be able to laugh at themselves. You don't even see the irony in my lampooning my own "Englishness" by using the word "boy"? Dearie me!... (Dow)
Aww, it's late, Dow, and I'm over laughing at you. Must have missed that one.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
The government doesn't agree with me? Err, SO?? I'm sure the government would disagree with me on a great many things. It's not like I can do anything about it anyway. I'm not even allowed to vote in your country.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
So? So you will have to be what they tell you you are going to be - an Australian. (It's not me telling you, Dow, don't forget that...we don't give a rats remember). No you can't do anything about it, except not take citizenship. No, you can't vote here unless you're Australian, even if you had "Australian-ness", which you say you don't have anyway, and anyway, the government doesn't recognise that.
Tis a bind, isn't it, Dow. Whatcha gonna do, Dow boy.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Geez I'm a good writer, don't you think, Dow?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Hey actually I'm now interested to know what exactly the oath says, and all the paperwork. Does it *actually* say "You are now Australian" or "You are now an Australian", or does it just say "You are now an Australian citizen"? In my book there's a huge difference. One's really insulting and stupid because it's wrong, and the other is really great because I get the right to vote.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Stewart Island ? Oh, you mean Te Punga o Te Waka a Maui... One of NZ's cultural defining qualities is a universal commitment to return the original legitimate placenames to our major and minor natural landmarks. Officially NZ needs to be referred to as NZ/Aoteoroa.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, you go look into it, Dow. Gee, how long has it taken to get to that point, if you've been so concerned about it.
You just never know, Dow, you might be able to have Australian citizenship and not be an Australian, and then all your problems will be over. LOL.
I'm glad I was born here, mate, looking at all the mental hoops you are putting yourself through.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
That's the one, Patkiwi.
Personally, I'd like to see Sydney renamed Eora, the name of the original inhabitants (stand to be corrected on that, just my understanding).
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Nah, I'm pretty glad I wasn't born here. A UK passport allows you to enter certain areas of the world with a blase nonchalance that Aussies can only dream of, and roam/work freely to your heart's content.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
At law, Dow, there will be no difference between an Australian and an Australian citizen.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And also I have a decent accent - one without those strangulated vowels and that eardrum-damaging nasal sound.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
All Aussies, Dow? Sorry to disappoint you.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
All you ever needed to know about Australian accents, Dow, but probably didn't. Three types, broad, general and educated/cultural sometimes called.
If you stay here long enough, you'll probably end up with a broad accent.
http://members.ozemail.com.au/~macinnis@ozemail.com.au/syd/language.htm
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I must say that Rakiura is probably the more accepted name for that wonder place. I've never been there but it's on my must-see-before-I-die list.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Patkiwi
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I'm a linguistics student, so yes, I did know all that and more.
::looks smugly and disdainfully down on Aussie boy::
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Gee, this port from Rutherglen in Victoria, with part from 90 year old vintage Touriga grapes is absolutely gorgeous.
Hmm. Bottled honey sunshine. Top Australian wine.
Heard of it, Dow?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Hey it was Ben who was going on about your wine, not me! I secretly like it. I also really really like port. I'm jealous...
::runs off to look for a substitute alcolholic drink in cupboard::
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Believe it is very nice, Patkiwi. Always wanted to go there myself. One of the landmarks is called (by the British anyway) Pegasus Rock, quite a landmark on the northern(?) side of the island. That's the name of Stewart's ship that mapped the place for the NSW government way back then. (Australia wasn't called Australia officially then, it was all called New South Wales). Yes, yes, I know it's boring, but hey, the Brits got here before the French didn't they. Just.
Well, Dow, get cracking on a good general or cultured Australian accent so your kids don't end up with one of those broad, strangulated vowel type Aussie accents.
They will anyway, you know that. Your descendants will be some of the most ocker of Aussies, I'd say, Dow. That's generally what mostly becomes of the descendants of the English here. Unless of course, you take some decisive steps to see that that just does not happen.
This is great craic, thanks Dow.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, Dow, try the Chambers Rosewood Vineyard Mount Carmel Port, you can order it on the phone direct from the real friendly fifth generation Aussie winemaker there, old Bill Chambers (he doesn't give a rats about much either, except nice wine, I believe). And I know this will sound gross, but the best way to order it is in a four pack of two litre flagons, only 28 bucks each. Heaven in a bottle, Dow.
Just don't be drinking from a flagon at the session, or people will think you're a derro and through you out of the pub.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I have 2 choices then: 1) I don't have kids, or 2) I have kids but raise them in New Zealand.
Mind you, they have even weirder vowels over there. "Fush and chups". Maybe option 1 might be the go
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"Derro"
hahahaha, what a great word
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Yes, it's funny isn't it. Oldie but a goodie.
Now there's a big choice, Dow - don't have kids so they don't end up with a broad Australian accent.
As if you didn't have enough rough choices to make. Don't raise your kids in NZ, Dow, are you a glutton for punishment?
They will only end up coming over here, and then have to go through what you're going through.
Geez, man, will ye never learn!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I think we should be grateful to Jeremy actually, for not deleting this diatribe. If he did, Dow might never become an Australian...or an Australian citizen...or whatever.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I'm glad it hasn't been deleted too. Maybe we should try and steer it onto the topic of, like, music or something? I was actually thinking that the whole subject of culture and identity amongst immigrants has a lot to do with the music. I'm thinking of the Irish in America, doing their best to maintain their Irishness by playing the music? Kind of clutching at straws, but I can sense Jeremy's finger hovering over the red button marked "OBLITERATE".
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, it is strange, I do think, why some of us here with apparently so remote a connection with Ireland (or England for that matter) actually like the music.
Once at the Thurles though, I saw a group of Indians come in (the Asian sub-continent Indians, that is, just to clear up any possible confusion for readers). They loved the reels, jigs, the bodhrans, the whole deal. Clapping, jumping around, like it was a revelation to them. Food for thought, I thought.
Long history, this music, I'd say.
I wonder how Trouble in the Kitchen for example would go over in India.
Pretty good, I would have thought.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Maybe they'd eventually be accepted as Indians if they kept on saying "we're Indian you know" during their gigs over there
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, if they had Indian citizenship, and the law recognised them as Indians as a result (which it might not, I don't know), then yes, probably. Otherwise, it might be a tough call.
And if you're interested in linguistics, you might not have seen this thread, which I thought was interesting anyway:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17239
Check it out over a port.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Well, Dow, I'm about done now, and it is late, and I think you are feeling a whole lot better about everything, if I may presume to say so.
So, I will away for now. Nice to speak with you again.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Yes, nice to speak with you too. What you write reads nicely in my own accent
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
That's part of the art of writing, Dow.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
And persuasion.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
I have come late to this discussion - at the end I hope. Two opposing views held to the end, agreeing to differ. I thought this site was about music - ITM in particular. The ideas surrounding national identity are complex and any discussion should accept the complexity.
It seems clear from the discussion that a trait shared by Australians and Northumbrians is dogged stubbornness!
I suggest reading some background material in preparation for a calm and deep discussion. How about "Nation, Authenticity and Social Difference in Australian Popular Music". G Smith, J Brett in the Journal of Australian Sties 1998? There are thousands of other sources to consult - just google!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by hotspur
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Why would you want to have a calm and deep discussion with an Australian when you can taunt them instead? It's much more fun!
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
This thread makes for a good read in retrospect, actually. I especially love the bit where I play the "disempowered immigrant" card. Hahaha
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Talking about Australians, linguistics and accents, I've never thought there was much to the Australian accent? It consists in making a statement like this? Followed closely by another like this? Then you might say "This is really great wine"?
The Australian accent betrays a peculiarly positive, confident approach to life.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Peculiar indeed
The rising inflection is something I first heard in California, despite me growing up in Australia, then it came to Australian teens, and now is appearing in the UK.
It's peculiar all right, but not peculiarly Australian and it doesn't betray confidence, it sounds very tentative.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by Bren
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
About lingwistikz, errr, don't get me wrong Ben, but uuuuummm, but don't you think errr , Naaahhh, forget it, no offence or anyfing, excellent, yeah all right. see ya. ( exits muttering , geez he's not a bad bloke , eh?.....etc)
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Sorry Bren. I apologise - that was sarcasm on my part, which I don't really approve of. So - sorry.
chuneboi - you'll have to explain that. Well, you don't *have* to. But I don't understand. Is it Hugh Grant?
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Wasn't my intention Ben but that is a revelation! All Australians are a manifestation of Hugh Grant .
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by chuneboi slim
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
"You often get this in the Aussie media - a crime suspect on the
run is "Australian" in appearance -- that means a
white guy, not an Aboriginal guy."
Hey Huppie,
its put up time... find one instance of this in an Australian media outlet in the last five years, or admit you made it up...
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by cag
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
yeh, they use that dreadful Americanism "Caucasian"
Musta got it off Dragnet or something
I keep picturing an Armenian or Azeri ...
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Bren
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Actually I thought you had a bit of an Armenian look about you last time we met, Bren, but I didn't say anything in case you were offended
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Dow
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Cag - Things have improved Bren, but it's still there -
I hear it on TV occasionally, but haven't seen it recently in the
Canberra Times or The Australian. It came up all the time
during the Cronulla riots coverage.
Try a few google searches like these examples to see where it comes up on the 'net
"looks Australian" site:.au
"looked Australian" site:.au
"Australian looking" herald
"Australian looking" site:.com etc etc
I admit, I didn't find as much on google as I expected, but
most newpaper indexes are proprietary - not searchable
this way. I'll have a go on Factiva and some other ones
tomorrow to satisfy your curiosity and mine
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
Not bren - directed to "cag"; sorry bren
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Hup
Re: Australia to Ireland for sessions
That's OK - I agree with cag anyway. You might hear people saying it in a voxpop - but it's just wishful thinking to say you hear it in official descriptions of crime suspects, unless it's a direct quote from a witness.
I did have my friend's Italian father commanding me to "Speak Australian!" when I got too enthusiastic with my Doric impressions on my last visit down under though.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by Bren