I'm a beginning whistle player, been playing for about two years. I haven't practised as often as I would have liked the past year because of wrist pain. Surprisingly, playing the whistle does make it worse (but is not nearly as hard on the wrist as the mandolin.) I've got a question that I'm hoping people here can help me with. One of my current deficiencies in my playing is my intonation. When playing in a session, I know that I annoy a couple of the other flute and whistle players because I struggle with my intonation. (They haven't told me directly, but it's clear when they either move to other instruments or take a break, or find all the tunes I don't know.)
I've gotten better. In tunes with a high A, such as Bill Sulivan's Polka, I can play without that scratch-on-chalkboard cringe from me being out of tune with the other whistle player. However, I'm not quite there. I've heard people describe what you want to do is play such that you can't hear your instrument because the sound blends into the other instruments. I think this sort of makes sense when playing with other whistle players, but it doesn't make any sense if I'm playing with people on other instruments.
Any ideas for ways I can improve? Thanks, my session mates will really appreciate you. (BTW, I play a Susato High D, and noticed looking through the archive several comments that playing high A and above can be difficult... that makes me feel a little better.)
Are you sure they aren't reacting to the volume of the whistle, as much as wonky intonation. The Susato is quite loud, particularly on the higher notes, and in some situations those notes can be quite painful.
If the intonation on your high A is that off, it could be your whistle rather than your playing that is at fault - you can only vary the pitch of a note within a small margin without either squeaking or dropping to the lower octave. If you have a tuneable whistle, it might just be that it's not properly tuned in - this would be more noticeable on the higher notes.
As Ottery says, Susatos are very loud whistles and the - bane of many session players lives. I only take mine out if I'm feeling overconfident - and usually switch back to a quieter whistle a few bars into the tune, after I embarrass myself by squeaking raucously. It's a rare player who can make one of them sound sweet. For a similar whistle in a similar price range, I recommend a Tony Dixon - they are quite loud, but less piercing and 'plastic'- sounding than a Susato.
Since nobody has actually told you, yet you seem absolutely sure that it is your intonation that is at fault, then you are already on your way to overcoming the problem, as you obviously have a good ear. I would suggest sitting at home and experimenting with varying your breath pressure, familiarising yourself with the upper and lower 'breaking points' of the note. You might then want to try playing against a fixed-pitch instrument, or an electronic tuner, and adjust your breath pressure accordingly, to get each note perfectly in tune.
In the real world, it is hard to find a whistle which is perfectly in tune, and there are very few players who are perfectly in tune. When playing fast passages, slightly out intonation goes unnoticed, or is acceptable. The problems come on long and high notes, and cross-fingered notes such as c-natural. On the other hand, the advantage you have on sustained notes is that you have the time to 'blow' them into tune with subtle variation in breath pressure. You can always disguise an out-of-tune note by sliding up to it and slightly past it - a common ornament. Also, rolling the note might make it less noticeable.
Invest in a good quality whistle. If the tone of your instrument is the problem, there is nothing your playing can do to fix it. You'll be amazed how much easier it is to play. I recommend a Sindt. Not too long of a waiting list compared to some.
How do you know when it is the tone of your whistle and not yourself. In particular, I have been using a tuner (unfortunately a guitar tuner so I don't get f#'s grrr.) and can blow each note so that it shows up on the tuner as in pitch. However, it takes varying amounts of pressure for different notes. I've noticed in the lower octave that d, e, and a all seem to require about the same pressure. Low g requires a little less pressure. In the upper octave, high A and B require a _lot_ more pressure than D,E, or G. Sindt's are probably out of my price range... I'm trying to save money because I am temporarily in-between jobs. I will probably be ordering a Dixon though. It's been a while since I got my last whistle...
A1dan, I would have to recommend the Tony Dixon whistle, as did David above. I have both Susato and Dixon high Ds and the difference is that the Dixon allows me to crack the left index finger hole open slightly (B hole) to achieve two things.
The first is to cause the instrument to break solidly into the upper register without simply overblowing (this effect is identical to what a recorder player does with the thumb hole... sorry everybody to mention recorder, I know how some of you hate it.)
The second is to be able to vary the pitch of the upper register notes in order to bring them into tune with whatever or whoever you're playing along with. You'll find that by increasing or decreasing the amount of *crack* or slight opening of the index finger (I role it away from me) you can bring the high notes right in tune. I can play reliably up to B and C. Also, and this is very important, because cracking this hole forces the instrument into the upper register, you can do it with much less volume!!! I find this a big advantage. Unfortunately, the Susato whistles don't respond to this effect like the Dixon, so you're stuck just overblowing.
Lastly, Susato offer a "very small bore" soprano whistle now which is supposed to be softer, but I still like my Dixon.
Chris
I think the problem is that a lot of Whistles made by supposedly reputable makers are out of tune. Is it possible to make a whistle that plays in tune? The answer is yes.
One common problem is that a too large bore is chosen this makes the whistle sound stronger in the bottom octave at the expense of a flat upper octave. As far as I'm concerned this is not acceptable.
Another all to common problem is that the holes are in the wrong place.
If you are going to buy, a whistle test its intonation first, I would not recommend a tuner as you will tend to adjust your blowing unconsciously. I use a keyboard with a clean (no vibrato) sound in the same octave as the Whistle, and test every note. If the Whistle is out of tune don't buy it, and if they won't let you test it go elsewhere.
Some one I know recently bought a D Whistle for
I often go into music shops and ask to try out the generations. It's fun to spent 20 mins trying them all out and then tell the shop keeper "they're all crap"
Generations are usually pretty well in tune, as are most mass produced whistles
I have never understood the ploy of trying out loads of whistles and trying to find a decent one...all whistles need breaking in and a few minutes is not even gonna blow the fluff out.
In my opinion a whistle (any whistle) needs weeks of playing before it starts singing.
A1dan As for intonation I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you are concerned you will get tense and nervousness will put the whistle out of tune. So relax and enjoy the cock ups...everyone makes them.
I always try out cheap whistles especially generations. They can be very variable. The sound they give the first time you play is generally the sound they'll keep. (Unless you mod. them).
As for tuning, all but the best whistles can have discrepencies between the top and bottom octave, especially the top A, B and C. You can correct this by correcting the amount of pressure you use high up. Try playing along with a flute or whistle record (slow tunes first then faster ones) think more pressure to make the pitch higher and less for lower. You will find that after a while you will think about it less.
This only works for small imbalances in tuning not large ones, for example if it sounds out of tune from anything lower than the high A. For bigger imbalances you need to move the head of the whistle and this can bring the two octaves into sync, or you can tape the holes (like pipers do) but this can be a lot of hastle. If its a cheap whistle get a new one and when your in the shop try it out with a tuner, remembering not to try and blow it in to tune but blow naturally and steady. You should be able to find one that suits you. If it's a expensive one send it back.
Hope this helps and I hope I haven't para-phrased anyone.
Hi Dave Twiz.
I don't think that Generation Whistles change over time. When you say "breaking in" I think this applies to your learning the idiosyncrasies of the instrument rather than the whistle it
Dave(Twiz),
Perhaps you've been exceptionally lucky with Generations. I've done the same as Michael on occasion. But, like you say, they are mass produced so, in truth, it's probably futile trying every one in the shop - if one is bad, the whole batch will be bad. It's not just intonation - some of them just won't produce a clean note. There are probably ways of remedying this, with a little fine adjustment to the labium - but, unless you know exactly what you 're doing, its far easier to ruin it altogether than to improve it. But the best Generations are as good as any
I disagree, I have bought quite a few in different keys and after plenty of playing they become smoother and more rounded in tone...maybe its the layer of guinness and tobacco smoke Anyway to my mind they do change because they sound different (and better) after time. That's not to say you can't get a duff one but generally, in my experience this is not the case.
Yes I probably have been lucky. I have only had one dodgy Bb in my life
I agree the Generations can be as good as any expensive whistle. I play John Sindt whistles and really like their rich tone but I would still never be without my Generations.
You lucky person... wish I could play a few tunes with Frankie Gavin or Tommy Peoples.
The old Generations used to be tunable, ie the mouthpiece could be moved either up or down to enable it to be tuned to other instruments.For some unknown reason they started glueing the mouthpieces down. Bye soaking them in hot water it is possible to crack the glue bye twisting the mouthpiece sharply whilst holding the barrel tight.Alternately, buy a decent tunable whistle like an Abel,
Ric
I agree with Ottery and David, that Susatos are very loud - too loud, Iin my view. The whistle is too high-pitched to be ideal as a full-volume, leading instrument . It wants to be, mostly, a pleasant, bubbling sound weaving through the fiddles and banjos, not a strident competitor for first place. I'm not anti-whistle - I'm trying hard to learn to play it better. But I'm not a fan of loud, screechy, high-pitched noises. (Could it perhaps be that you're overblowing on the upper register and this is why your session mates are edging away?)
I should add that I also dislike the upper register on Susatos, apart from their volume - I find it very harsh and sometimes it has a really blood-curdling breaking-up kind of tone. Dixons are much nicer, although the only one I've ever played did have some intonation problems. Clarkes also have trouble getting the two registers to agree with each other - of the cheap and easily obtainable whistles, I agree with everyone else that Generations are the most reliable, once you find a good one. But my absolute beloved favourite is my Eagle whistle - it has really sweet tone (a bit quiet even, for the more macho player) and the intonation is pretty much perfect. It is also doubly tunable, in that the mouthpiece is slidable and the tube is composed of two sections which fit together in the middle. You can actually take it into two pieces and fit it in your pocket, it's great. I know it sounds implausible but it really works and it's a great whistle! I've just done a search on it; the Chiff and Fipple guide - http://www.chiffandfipple.com/inexp.html - gives it a slightly mixed review... but I was delighted to discover that it's made in County Clare! Didn't know that. Hurray!
If everyone else has tuned to the slightly flat banjo-player, then there's no point in using a tuner - you'll have to tune accordingly. Plenty of sessions get started without anyone consulting a tuner or even agreeing who to take the note from, hence fairly shambolic tuning... and you'll just have to take the best average or tune to something stable and loud like the box. Or try to persuade everybody to stop and tune up... which would probably be a good idea...
It is more likely that I'm underblowing the whistle. Especially when I'm with other people I tend to be self-concious and not want to be as loud as possible... I've worked on that. And yes, the last part is often more likely the problem. Our banjo player who plays whistle on the tunes she doesn't know on the banjo, has forgotten her usual generation whistle and her car whistle is not tunable (yet). Therefore, I have to tune flat to play along without it being painful.
Re-reading my first paragraph there, it sounds rather pompous... pontificating about the rightful place of whistles...
Having just said (and misspelled!) 'in my view' I didn't like to over-egg the pudding - it's obvious that everything I say is 'my view'. But I really should have added the proviso that I was just stating my own opinion about whistles and where they fit into the grand scheme of things. I'm not very tolerant of high pitched sound so I'm bound to have strong views on the matter...
Helen, I didn't take it as pompous. Rather, I took it as another good reason to look for a different (tunable) whistle that won't be so loud. Primarily because I often would rather be quieter being one of the less-skill musicians at most sessions in which I play.
Intonation and the Whistle
Intonation and the Whistle
I'm a beginning whistle player, been playing for about two years. I haven't practised as often as I would have liked the past year because of wrist pain. Surprisingly, playing the whistle does make it worse (but is not nearly as hard on the wrist as the mandolin.) I've got a question that I'm hoping people here can help me with. One of my current deficiencies in my playing is my intonation. When playing in a session, I know that I annoy a couple of the other flute and whistle players because I struggle with my intonation. (They haven't told me directly, but it's clear when they either move to other instruments or take a break, or find all the tunes I don't know.)
I've gotten better. In tunes with a high A, such as Bill Sulivan's Polka, I can play without that scratch-on-chalkboard cringe from me being out of tune with the other whistle player. However, I'm not quite there. I've heard people describe what you want to do is play such that you can't hear your instrument because the sound blends into the other instruments. I think this sort of makes sense when playing with other whistle players, but it doesn't make any sense if I'm playing with people on other instruments.
Any ideas for ways I can improve? Thanks, my session mates will really appreciate you. (BTW, I play a Susato High D, and noticed looking through the archive several comments that playing high A and above can be difficult... that makes me feel a little better.)
# Posted on May 25th 2003 by A1dan
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Are you sure they aren't reacting to the volume of the whistle, as much as wonky intonation. The Susato is quite loud, particularly on the higher notes, and in some situations those notes can be quite painful.
# Posted on May 25th 2003 by Ottery
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
It would be nice if it was just the volume of the whistle. But, I don't think that is completely the problem. It may make it more obvious though.
# Posted on May 25th 2003 by A1dan
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
If the intonation on your high A is that off, it could be your whistle rather than your playing that is at fault - you can only vary the pitch of a note within a small margin without either squeaking or dropping to the lower octave. If you have a tuneable whistle, it might just be that it's not properly tuned in - this would be more noticeable on the higher notes.
As Ottery says, Susatos are very loud whistles and the - bane of many session players lives. I only take mine out if I'm feeling overconfident - and usually switch back to a quieter whistle a few bars into the tune, after I embarrass myself by squeaking raucously. It's a rare player who can make one of them sound sweet. For a similar whistle in a similar price range, I recommend a Tony Dixon - they are quite loud, but less piercing and 'plastic'- sounding than a Susato.
Since nobody has actually told you, yet you seem absolutely sure that it is your intonation that is at fault, then you are already on your way to overcoming the problem, as you obviously have a good ear. I would suggest sitting at home and experimenting with varying your breath pressure, familiarising yourself with the upper and lower 'breaking points' of the note. You might then want to try playing against a fixed-pitch instrument, or an electronic tuner, and adjust your breath pressure accordingly, to get each note perfectly in tune.
In the real world, it is hard to find a whistle which is perfectly in tune, and there are very few players who are perfectly in tune. When playing fast passages, slightly out intonation goes unnoticed, or is acceptable. The problems come on long and high notes, and cross-fingered notes such as c-natural. On the other hand, the advantage you have on sustained notes is that you have the time to 'blow' them into tune with subtle variation in breath pressure. You can always disguise an out-of-tune note by sliding up to it and slightly past it - a common ornament. Also, rolling the note might make it less noticeable.
Right, I'm off to try out some of my suggestions.
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Invest in a good quality whistle. If the tone of your instrument is the problem, there is nothing your playing can do to fix it. You'll be amazed how much easier it is to play. I recommend a Sindt. Not too long of a waiting list compared to some.
Alice
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by aliceflynn
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
How do you know when it is the tone of your whistle and not yourself. In particular, I have been using a tuner (unfortunately a guitar tuner so I don't get f#'s grrr.) and can blow each note so that it shows up on the tuner as in pitch. However, it takes varying amounts of pressure for different notes. I've noticed in the lower octave that d, e, and a all seem to require about the same pressure. Low g requires a little less pressure. In the upper octave, high A and B require a _lot_ more pressure than D,E, or G. Sindt's are probably out of my price range... I'm trying to save money because I am temporarily in-between jobs. I will probably be ordering a Dixon though. It's been a while since I got my last whistle...
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by A1dan
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
A1dan, I would have to recommend the Tony Dixon whistle, as did David above. I have both Susato and Dixon high Ds and the difference is that the Dixon allows me to crack the left index finger hole open slightly (B hole) to achieve two things.
The first is to cause the instrument to break solidly into the upper register without simply overblowing (this effect is identical to what a recorder player does with the thumb hole... sorry everybody to mention recorder, I know how some of you hate it.)
The second is to be able to vary the pitch of the upper register notes in order to bring them into tune with whatever or whoever you're playing along with. You'll find that by increasing or decreasing the amount of *crack* or slight opening of the index finger (I role it away from me) you can bring the high notes right in tune. I can play reliably up to B and C. Also, and this is very important, because cracking this hole forces the instrument into the upper register, you can do it with much less volume!!! I find this a big advantage. Unfortunately, the Susato whistles don't respond to this effect like the Dixon, so you're stuck just overblowing.
Lastly, Susato offer a "very small bore" soprano whistle now which is supposed to be softer, but I still like my Dixon.
Chris
# Posted on May 26th 2003 by unique
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
I think the problem is that a lot of Whistles made by supposedly reputable makers are out of tune. Is it possible to make a whistle that plays in tune? The answer is yes.
One common problem is that a too large bore is chosen this makes the whistle sound stronger in the bottom octave at the expense of a flat upper octave. As far as I'm concerned this is not acceptable.
Another all to common problem is that the holes are in the wrong place.
If you are going to buy, a whistle test its intonation first, I would not recommend a tuner as you will tend to adjust your blowing unconsciously. I use a keyboard with a clean (no vibrato) sound in the same octave as the Whistle, and test every note. If the Whistle is out of tune don't buy it, and if they won't let you test it go elsewhere.
Some one I know recently bought a D Whistle for
# Posted on May 27th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
I often go into music shops and ask to try out the generations. It's fun to spent 20 mins trying them all out and then tell the shop keeper "they're all crap"
# Posted on May 27th 2003 by ...
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Aye - you're a dangerous man, right enough, Michael.
# Posted on May 27th 2003 by Kenny
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Generations are usually pretty well in tune, as are most mass produced whistles
I have never understood the ploy of trying out loads of whistles and trying to find a decent one...all whistles need breaking in and a few minutes is not even gonna blow the fluff out.
In my opinion a whistle (any whistle) needs weeks of playing before it starts singing.
A1dan As for intonation I wouldn't worry about it too much. If you are concerned you will get tense and nervousness will put the whistle out of tune. So relax and enjoy the cock ups...everyone makes them.
Dave.
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Twiz
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
I always try out cheap whistles especially generations. They can be very variable. The sound they give the first time you play is generally the sound they'll keep. (Unless you mod. them).
As for tuning, all but the best whistles can have discrepencies between the top and bottom octave, especially the top A, B and C. You can correct this by correcting the amount of pressure you use high up. Try playing along with a flute or whistle record (slow tunes first then faster ones) think more pressure to make the pitch higher and less for lower. You will find that after a while you will think about it less.
This only works for small imbalances in tuning not large ones, for example if it sounds out of tune from anything lower than the high A. For bigger imbalances you need to move the head of the whistle and this can bring the two octaves into sync, or you can tape the holes (like pipers do) but this can be a lot of hastle. If its a cheap whistle get a new one and when your in the shop try it out with a tuner, remembering not to try and blow it in to tune but blow naturally and steady. You should be able to find one that suits you. If it's a expensive one send it back.
Hope this helps and I hope I haven't para-phrased anyone.
David
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by borderpiper
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Hi Dave Twiz.
I don't think that Generation Whistles change over time. When you say "breaking in" I think this applies to your learning the idiosyncrasies of the instrument rather than the whistle it
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Pied Piper
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Yup.
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by borderpiper
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Dave(Twiz),
Perhaps you've been exceptionally lucky with Generations. I've done the same as Michael on occasion. But, like you say, they are mass produced so, in truth, it's probably futile trying every one in the shop - if one is bad, the whole batch will be bad. It's not just intonation - some of them just won't produce a clean note. There are probably ways of remedying this, with a little fine adjustment to the labium - but, unless you know exactly what you 're doing, its far easier to ruin it altogether than to improve it. But the best Generations are as good as any
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Pied Piper,
Anyway to my mind they do change because they sound different (and better) after time. That's not to say you can't get a duff one but generally, in my experience this is not the case.
I disagree, I have bought quite a few in different keys and after plenty of playing they become smoother and more rounded in tone...maybe its the layer of guinness and tobacco smoke
Cheers,
Dave.
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Twiz
David,
Yes I probably have been lucky. I have only had one dodgy Bb in my life
I agree the Generations can be as good as any expensive whistle. I play John Sindt whistles and really like their rich tone but I would still never be without my Generations.
You lucky person... wish I could play a few tunes with Frankie Gavin or Tommy Peoples.
Dave.
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Twiz
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
The old Generations used to be tunable, ie the mouthpiece could be moved either up or down to enable it to be tuned to other instruments.For some unknown reason they started glueing the mouthpieces down. Bye soaking them in hot water it is possible to crack the glue bye twisting the mouthpiece sharply whilst holding the barrel tight.Alternately, buy a decent tunable whistle like an Abel,
Ric
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by ricthewhistle
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
I agree with Ottery and David, that Susatos are very loud - too loud, Iin my view. The whistle is too high-pitched to be ideal as a full-volume, leading instrument . It wants to be, mostly, a pleasant, bubbling sound weaving through the fiddles and banjos, not a strident competitor for first place. I'm not anti-whistle - I'm trying hard to learn to play it better. But I'm not a fan of loud, screechy, high-pitched noises. (Could it perhaps be that you're overblowing on the upper register and this is why your session mates are edging away?)
I should add that I also dislike the upper register on Susatos, apart from their volume - I find it very harsh and sometimes it has a really blood-curdling breaking-up kind of tone. Dixons are much nicer, although the only one I've ever played did have some intonation problems. Clarkes also have trouble getting the two registers to agree with each other - of the cheap and easily obtainable whistles, I agree with everyone else that Generations are the most reliable, once you find a good one. But my absolute beloved favourite is my Eagle whistle - it has really sweet tone (a bit quiet even, for the more macho player) and the intonation is pretty much perfect. It is also doubly tunable, in that the mouthpiece is slidable and the tube is composed of two sections which fit together in the middle. You can actually take it into two pieces and fit it in your pocket, it's great. I know it sounds implausible but it really works and it's a great whistle! I've just done a search on it; the Chiff and Fipple guide - http://www.chiffandfipple.com/inexp.html - gives it a slightly mixed review... but I was delighted to discover that it's made in County Clare! Didn't know that. Hurray!
If everyone else has tuned to the slightly flat banjo-player, then there's no point in using a tuner - you'll have to tune accordingly. Plenty of sessions get started without anyone consulting a tuner or even agreeing who to take the note from, hence fairly shambolic tuning... and you'll just have to take the best average or tune to something stable and loud like the box. Or try to persuade everybody to stop and tune up... which would probably be a good idea...
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Nell
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
It is more likely that I'm underblowing the whistle. Especially when I'm with other people I tend to be self-concious and not want to be as loud as possible... I've worked on that. And yes, the last part is often more likely the problem. Our banjo player who plays whistle on the tunes she doesn't know on the banjo, has forgotten her usual generation whistle and her car whistle is not tunable (yet). Therefore, I have to tune flat to play along without it being painful.
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by A1dan
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Re-reading my first paragraph there, it sounds rather pompous... pontificating about the rightful place of whistles...
Having just said (and misspelled!) 'in my view' I didn't like to over-egg the pudding - it's obvious that everything I say is 'my view'. But I really should have added the proviso that I was just stating my own opinion about whistles and where they fit into the grand scheme of things. I'm not very tolerant of high pitched sound so I'm bound to have strong views on the matter...
# Posted on May 28th 2003 by Nell
Re: Intonation and the Whistle
Helen, I didn't take it as pompous. Rather, I took it as another good reason to look for a different (tunable) whistle that won't be so loud. Primarily because I often would rather be quieter being one of the less-skill musicians at most sessions in which I play.
# Posted on May 29th 2003 by A1dan