A couple of times I've been to Irish music concerts where they have these young dancing girls with bouncy hair and fancy costumes dancing with their arms to their sides. Is this the dancing that is supposed to go with jigs and reels? If not (and I assume not), what did the dancing look like?
"young dancing girls with bouncy hair (the ringlet thing) and fancy costumes (short skirts emblazoned with bold overstated embroidery) dancing with their arms to their sides (and toes pointed, and kickin' themselves in the behind)" ~ only canned music, pre-recorded and delivered a la boom box...
Hey sb, this culturally ignorant yank thinks there be three types:
1. Ringlets, sequins, canned music, etc.
2. Set dancing (I like to joke that this is what our square dancing used to be called before it came to this country.)
3. Sean-Nos (solo, improvised from set steps and moves)
You (hopefully) can find set dancing near you. We have a few teachers down this way and one of the cultural clubs has been holding ceili dances. It's a real blast and an education to play for them.
Also, the local school of kiddies with their sequins and ringlets calls yours truly for some live music once in a while, and that's fun too. The kids really appreciate it and I enjoy it as well.
Then there's my horrible fake sean-nos dancing I'll do near the end of the session, after I've played several rounds of "make the pint disappear" but that's a totally different story.
My daughter is currently in Belfast with bouncy hair (the ringlet thing) and fancy costume (short skirt emblazoned with bold overstated embroidery) dancing with her arms to her sides (and toes pointed, and kickin' herself in the behind), but she is actually doing it all to the live accompaniment of some pretty talented musicians:
And while the get-up is strange - and excessively expensive- I wouldn't for a moment sneer at her and her friends' accomplishments and talent, as it is sometimes fashionable to do here.
And I loved all of the sean-nos and set dancing clips above.
I had the pleasure to talk to a young sean nos dancer from Clifden and she explained to me that the 'ringletty costumey' type dancing is quite new. We both agreed that the 'sean nos' style was infinitely more interesting, if for no other reason that it is totally free style and not coreagraphed like the ... and I'm stuck for the term. What DO you call the 'ringletty costumey ' style? Riverdance? New Wave?
I think "step dancing" is the term for the Comisiun le Rinci Gaelacha (i.e., "ringletty costumey") style. It goes back to the turn of the century from what I gather, but grew after Independence in the early 20's. The ringlets also seem to date back to the 1920's, and probably reflect normal hair fashions of the time that got frozen by tradition.
The costumes were a lot plainer originally, but gradually became more and more elaborate over the years. A lot of people would like to turn back the clock on that aspect. The Riverdance show costumes were actually a lot more understated than the ones used currently in competitions.
I think good step dancing is very exciting to watch, but I enjoy all of the different forms equally well.
grego, so far, for quite a few years, whenever anyone in that get-up has shown up at a session or ceili, despite being offered live music, they have ALWAYS refused it and gone for their canned version. It usually takes at minimum of 15 minutes for them to set up, actually more for full preparation, and then 15 to 30 minutes to do their routine. Then all of them, and their entourage, mothers and whoever else, march out and that's it, it's over with. I have to say, given the whole thing and the AWFUL canned music ~ not before time. It usually takes away from everyone else's enjoyment of both the live music there and dancing. They bring their own audience, but that audience is only interested in their offering, not in contributing to the actual event they impose themselves on. Well, to be fair, they are offered space to do their precocious little exhibition.
It is 'thoughtful', if poisoned by repeat exposure. I admit the bias. However, I wouldn't take their pleasure from them, if that's what they get off on. I just wish it didn't have to overlap on things more 'community' oriented. 'Community' means to me a certain 'respect' and 'consideration' that mostly seems to be lacking with this lot. Sorry grego, that is my experience of it. If they want to do their own thing, fine, but why impose it on others? As well, so many of them are obviously music ignorant, as much of what happens doesn't really seem to do justice to the beat, phrase or melody of the 'traditional music', canned or otherwise.
You could say I don't appreciate it, and you'd be right. I don't. I find it silly, and actually ~ rude. So, I suppose I'm answering in kind...
Oh, and 'expensive' ~ I remember seeing one costume listed at U.S. prices for around $25,000... Somehow I think 'rediculous' is fitting a description of that kind of silliness. It isn't that far removed from the beauty pageant scene for children ~ YUCK!!!
"I think good step dancing is very exciting to watch" ~ I agree 100%, good thoughtful and inspired ~ but mostly I haven't found that to be the case where burned hair and gaudy costumes are involved...sorry...that is my experience of it, mostly unpleasant... But, there have been the rare exceptions... My other bias about it, that the form, and its exaggerations, are by their own statements for at the eldest ~ teens, with few exceptions. The idea is that post 18 you're over the hill. That isn't the case with the 'older' styles it was based on and exaggerated from, 'sean nos', where you can pretty much dance till you drop. I've known some fine sean nos dancing seniors. For one, they don't kick themselves in the ass, it could lead to a crippling injury...
I stuck two Coimisiun all-Irelands, and the thing that stuck in my mind was that it was mostly about the parents...a bit like those stage parents at drama schools. Worse were the black and blue marks left by disappointed parents when their kids screwed up or didn't win a medal or trophy... I think that's pretty say actually.
'good step dancing', whatever the form, doesn't step all over the music or stand in front of it ~ it accompanies it, complements it. Sadly, that is a rare gift...
I'll second you here ceol. We played a gig on the Friday of Paddy's weekend just gone. We were supposed to be intercalated with a dancing school - who - as you rightly point out - opted for their own canned music, rather than the real thing (us). In the end we must have played about 20-30 minutes in total - just two spots -and got paid quite well for it. In the interim, there were choice pieces we had to sit through though - things like Tam Lin played on a synth on pan-pipes sample, whilst all the kids went leppin around - in time I suppose. At least they enjoyed it. But it's now all a far cry from playing at Aras na Gael in Kilburn for the dancers as I had done many years before.
I can imagine how you feel, Danny. I've had a few good experiences where we played for the dancers and everyone had great craic, but I've seen them dance to the James Last stuff as well and it is pretty sad.
Oh I felt alright - the $$ signs were in my eyes. Just a shame it has all come to this schizophrenic state, though. Didn't someone - one of the Aussie contingent, greenwiggle maybe, post a discussion, a few years ago, about the 3 leaves of the shamrock coming apart?
grego, I never saw you as a drama ma, or da, and I suspect your young-un, ringlets or not, would not send me up the twist. I am more patient than my bark lets on. If her heart is in it then my patience would be unlimited, all else aside. I have respect for people's hearts and passions, if not for egos and the precocious, not even my own when it flares up...
That I'm used to, having done some work with delinquents and teen criminals...which I'm sure your daughter isn't... One of my most enjoyable dance sharing experiences was in a prison for young offenders. It was a lot of fun. We did a lot of laughing, but there were teary moments too. I'd take that over canned music and the general run of Irish dance schools any day...
I'm not into the image that irish dance promotes these days (one of the reasons i don't compete anymore) I would MUCH prefer to get up at a session or jump up on stage with a band anytime... it's soo much more spontaeous and fun.
One of the reasons that dance schools use piped music is it's a lot easier for a child say 11yrs & under to get up and do a display to music they have been dancing to in class. Unfortunately it's not always an option to have a live muso in class... altho i'd be totally cool with that!
I do have to add that Irish Dance rocks! And underneath all the glitz and glam there are some AMAZING dancers that deserve some recognition for all their hard work.
< They bring their own audience, but that audience is only interested in their offering, not in contributing to the actual event they impose themselves on.>
Amen Amen AMEN! Last year I was hired as a small 'side act' for the Dublin OH Irish Festival in Aug. I was checking out the program, and noticed that during some of my off time the Armagh Rhymers were going to be performing nearby. I was so fascinated by what these folks do I had thought about making a special trip to Wash DC just to see them at the Folklife festival earlier in the summer. When I found out they would be at Dublin, I was thrilled. I got to their stage maybe 15 minutes early, and it was already awash in a sea of bobbing little ringlets. Not only were all these girls chattering away, their mothers were even louder. More and more kept filtering in, and as each new pack arrived those already seated had to start shouting and yammering, and all of this continued and got WORSE as the Rhymers started. People got up and walked around, shouted, answered cell phones, squealed giggled and bellowed through the entire show. I was livid to say the least.
Here was an incredibly rare opportunity to see a slice of genuine culture in front of your face, but nope... far better to act like a troop of baboons. I wish that I could say that this type of experience was unique, but over the past fifteen years at various festivals I must admit this type of behavior is becoming alarmingly common.
As a parent of a Step Dancer who is now in Belfast I feel I have to put a word in here.
Much of C's complaints are about the ugly parent syndrome which is as unattractive in dancing as it is in sport. The second complaint is about the sequins, wigs and dresses. Well that has evolved over the years and the girls who enjoy the dancing have no say over that part even if they don't like it.
My daughter and her friends spent the day before St Pat's day doing some of those dance displays in pubs with recorded music - getting well paid for it. But they didn't intrude on any sessions and they didn't wear the sequins. Just their own hair and black skirts.
They finished off the day dancing at a finale of a concert I had put together. I only asked my daughter but her two friends insisted on coming along as well though none were paid for it. They did it for the pleasure and fun of it.
I do enjoy watching a good (step) dancer but hate all the attached glitz/glamour stuff; and to play for good dancers is always a joy whether they are step dancers or set dancers. Not much Sean Nos around my neck of the woods unfortunately.
End of rant!
Congratulations Donough, doesn't matter if she placed or not - it's hard enough to get good enough to get over there to compete in the first place.
I have many thoughts on this subject as in a previous incarnation I was one of the fellas who would break out in high steppin dance. Back when they made us wear kilts.
I did manage to travel over and compete a few times. The second time was my ruination as in the Salthill Hotel I managed to meet and hear some of the best trad musicians in Ireland. They were just there for the sessions and craic - not the competition itself - although Cathal Hayden and Brian McGrath et al did play for some lucky competitors. Anyway, that's when I started to neglect the steps and pick up the strings.
I do detest the glamour and glitz that it has come to represent - and the shame is that the majority are no longer able to recognise trad tunes unless played on the stomach steinway.
Thanks Greenwiggle but I had little or nothing to do with her getting to the stage of competing at the World's so I cant take any credit. I Doubt she will even get a 'recall', but she has gone to enjoy herself and wont fret over it.
But I do love that phase 'the stomach steinway" !!
davydd did some wicked good dancing at the nash! perfect and pretension free. (not to mention one mysterious dancing superhero who put in a mighty effort!)
A troupe of ringletty boom-box wrigglers near us wear that many sequins on their outfits, they all look like Wonder-Woman.
I have all on to keep the band quiet - they always collapse in giggles.
Nice balance Donough... I've never turned anyone away, but where I've had some involvement in setting 'limits', I've not delayed in doing so. Where I've been one of the primary organizers ~ canned music has always been banned, live or nothing. Also, costumes banned to. What I've found is that those dependant on 'canned & costumed' are generally not interested in much else, they arrive for their moment of fame and once their display is over they are quickly away. For those for which our rules of no 'canned or costumed' ~ the opposite seems true. They tend to show for the whole event and enjoy the efforts of others, show respect and appreciation ~ something I have respect and appreciation for... As it is generally children, I don't show my aggravation but keep it to myself. But it is usually raised even if kept relatively quiet. In general I find 'canned & costumed' to show little or no respect for the tradition it is a sad comic stereotype of... As said, if I'm directly involved in organizing something, I won't support further that sad comic stereotype... I do appreciate the efforts and sacrafice to accomplish skill, at anything, but there are limits to what I'll put up with, and we have walked out of ceilis and sessions that were turned into dance school performances... (1/2 hour and more)
Congratulations to your daughter Donough ~ and davydd and Greenwiggle, I have no doubts at all I'd enjoy your stepping, or Donough's or grego's daughter. Even more, I'd love to see Donough and grego dance a few...
I have pictures of early costumes, and the ones of the 1920s are a hoot... I wonder if that fashion will eventually be revived?
Yeah, and me in a little green suit dressed up as a leprechaun with buckled shoes, with clay pipe and all. Only please, give me a decent rod and reel and set me up somewhere I can get a decent catch of Mackerel, maybe the North end of Inis Meain, then I don't have to worry about anyone catching me...
i have always cringed at the sequin dancing described here, but after reading these various opinions, i'm more willing to maintain an open mind. i like the no-canned-music rule, but the each their fun. to a point.
and my point here, is to thank you all for a wide ranging discussion, with only good-humored griping. i like getting educated on the various points of view, it's what i come here for. mostly.
As far as I am aware the whole ringletted dolls, false tan, gaudy dresses is a purely American thing that has somehow come over to this side of the pond. Either way it has absolutely nothing to do with culture, Irish or otherwise, and not even much to do with dancing, and the music is totally immaterial. Its all to do with winning, and comes very close to child abuse in my opinion, and certainly is an abuse of Irish dancing traditions however it originated. Total waste of time and money for both children and parents. Buy them a tin whistle!
I always feel that apart from the expense of having a dancer in competitions, there is also an awful lot of bitchiness and 'win at all cost' attitude among the mammy's. I remember the step dancers at out local feis in the forties. They all wore a saffron kilt, a green cape and black stockings. The boys also wore a saffron kilt, which was a distinct deterrent for us lads to have anything to do with Irish Dancing. Instead a gang of us use to gather under the dancing floats and look up through the cracks. I was only six at the time so I had no idea what my older brothers were watching??????????
I saw an interesting short documentary about American girls who did Irish dancing and went to competitions and things. Mostly it was just interviews with the girls and how they felt about the whole thing.... and as you might imagine, mostly they were talking about how they liked the dancing itself but hated all the pressure. They really seemed to be under a HUGE HUGE HUGE amount of pressure as far as dancing and all (parents, but also at the schools). I think that pretty much every single girl interviewed wanted to quit dancing. None of them were given much time for themselves, between school and dancing.
Anyway, I thought it was an interesting film. I think I saw it on Veoh or something like that, back when it was still free. Maybe it's still available online some place?
With some regularity at one of our local sessions, two of our musicians (a fiddler and a whistler) switch back and forth between competitive step and sean nos style dancing to our 'live' music. They have practiced steps they've learned from Kieran Jordan and others as well as steps they've needed for competitive Irish stepdancing. Not everyone is limited to 'boxed up' music for their stepping routines! Thank goodness...
bullwall: "As far as I am aware the whole ringletted dolls, false tan, gaudy dresses is a purely American thing that has somehow come over to this side of the pond"
That's interesting, and certainly has the ring of truth about it given similar exports of Americana. However, I have been told (perhaps incorrectly) that the opposite is true: the ringlets, false tan, and dress gaudiness has been almost completely driven by the schools and competitors in Ireland. Do you have some additional background?
The majority of dance schools run in the western united states are founded and operated by irish born transplants, so the blame for ringlet wigs and barbie-doll make-up on 9 year olds, etc should be shared equally across the pond. However, I did find it very encouraging to hear Helen Gannon, North American Chair of Comhaltas, flat out disavow that sort of thing in her recent presentation at our Phoenix Irish Cultural center.
A friend of mine used to describe the dresses as "Having had the Book of Kells vomited over them", which seems a fair description.
French and Saunders took it off in a sketch many years ago; Dawn French, for the unacquainted Americans, is no small lass, so they actually over-grotesqued it, if that is possible.
There was also a discussion a while ago re the dancers not crediting the performers whose cds, or whatever, they were dancing to, not even in a programmme with charged admission.
My ex-wife is a TCRG (certified Irish dance teacher). This is as best as I can recall her understanding of the deal:
As to the current styles (expensive $5,000 dresses, wigs, fake tans) have Riverdance to blame, somewhat. RD came out and had very simple costumes with little adornment. For a while in Irish dance it was fashionable to copy that for competition, but An Coimisiun reacted against that (somewhat I think because the competitors started to get a little revealing). They began to dictate what the silhouette of an Irish Dancer must look like, the flared dresses and all with "celtic" style designs on them. People began then to compete within those boundaries, doing whatever they could to get noticed by the judges.
In the end, I think much of what people here don't like about Irish dancing has much to do with what has happened to it because of competition.
and congrats to Grego and Donough, you should be proud of your kids!
I enjoyed the video with the men and women couples dancing. That is what I was hoping to see. Real dancing. Reminds me a little bit of country dancing here in the States.
The other kind of dancing where people aren't paired up is more like a contest or a show.
I like the bouncy ringlet girls and I've never seen them do their thing without live music. I guess I really am ignorant on that issue. In my area we probably have some schools for this, but the big thing here is flamenco and it's just as obnoxious with the moms from hell and all that.
What a great bunch. I was needing cheering up as I've spent the whole damn day, or most of it, fighting digital demons, problems with an Internet security suite and lack of Internet access, when I had a load of work to do that was dependant on a working computer and access, both of which weren't happening. It seems the 'lurgy' jumped from me to the computer... I appreciate the laughs, and the kindness you have all sown.
Good one Free Reed...
"Having had the Book of Kells vomited over them" ~ I'd forgotten about that one...
Has anyone seen the Shirley Temple in it all? I have to admit I am a lover and admirer of Bojangles...and I loved the old Shirley Temple movies... Sad, eh...
Flamenco, what folks mostly don't know about that from all the hype and the 'commercial' version mostly put forward. I had the blessing of seeing older Flamenco dancers, no costumes, and what a difference, and we've been similarly graced with regards to the tango... It can be beautiful. In both cases it was short plumpish older couples and they were the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen as regards these dance forms. I had little respect or interest in it at all until I saw it in that 'natural' and relaxed and unpompous way. It gives me goose bumps just remembering them...
The wigs in all this is a new thing, they really did use to take hot tongues to the poor children and burn the hair into ringlets. It isn't new... It also used to be crusty old men that were heading up the organization, and the costumes may say something about that...sadly...
One of the reasons why I have 'strong' feelings about this is the number Irish teens and older Irish folks I'd come across outside of our 'inner circles' who would have nothing at all to do with what we care about ~ didn't want to know anything about 'diddly music' and its associate forms. Many of them had been put through the ropes and it had left them with a lasting distaste, even hate, for it all. They'd been those little children being pinched black and blue for not winning the ribbon or medal or trophy. That makes me sad, as I wouldn't want anything to be so vile as to slam the door on what might have started as an honest and heartfelt interest, but which was spoiled in the push and shove of it all...
I do love dance ~ if not in all its guises, exaggerations and perversions...
Thanks again for helping to put me in a good mood before sleep, much appreciated. You really are (mostly) a lovely and considerate bunch...
C if you are still there : don't know about Grego but you really don't want to see me dance. I have been known to cause the collapse of the Walls of Limerick and turned the siege of Ennis into a slaughter!
I'd better pass too. My recurring nightmare is when we had to do the High Caul Cap in the Gaeltacht, the girls would be screaming at me .. "no, no, no! YOU're supposed to be over there... whatchya think you're doing? For God's sake this is the part you're supposed to swing... Yer in the WRONG PLACE!!!" (All "as Gaeilge," of course.)
Waltz ar an sean nos .. now that was the one for me. And outside for a bit of fresh air and a mineral after.
Well the sessions this weekend were blessed by a fellow who carried a roll of wood floor, layed it down and danced the most amazing rhythms with his tap shoes.... dont know exactly what style but it was great!!!! [too busy playing to really look]
The intricate foot work was far out. And no sequins to be seen
The comments and discussions on this thread were interesting to this pianist who was ignorant of the history and the reasons behind the elaborate costumes and the specific steps and moves of this style of dancing.
On the rare occasions when a dancer visited our local session, I have had the pleasure of playing for them and I have enjoyed it.
Unfortunately, the local Irish Session seems to have been taken over by fools who don't seem to think I am good enough or competent enough to play piano for dancers. As a result, it has been years since I have had the opportunity to play for dancers at the local session. Nor am I ever asked to play piano for a local folk dance group any more.
On the other hand, though, there are some musicians at the local session who say they want and need me at the session to help keep the beat steady because I supposedly have such a good sense of rhythm and timing.
This is confusing to me because if I supposedly have such a good sense of rhythm and timing and can maintain a steady beat, then it seems to me that I would be an asset to anyone who was trying to accompany dancers.
One more comment.....I have seen Dawn French on some of the programs from the United Kingdom which have been shown here in the United States and I have noticed that she is "slightly overweight".
"young dancing girls with bouncy hair (the ringlet thing) and fancy costumes (short skirts emblazoned with bold overstated embroidery) dancing with their arms to their sides (and toes pointed, and kickin' themselves in the behind)" ~ only canned music, pre-recorded and delivered a la boom box...
As an Irish dancer I totally agree with that, it's disgusting. I do it for fun, my mother is not a lunatic, i don't wear a wig, i don't have a sickening sparkley dress, i don't wear mounds of makeup, i would much rather have live music, and ceili's are so much more fun than dancing by yourself. I think we should all protest the dresses (just the grotesque ones, the plain ones are with actual celtic designs are good) and the wigs, any help is appreciated.
By the way I probably think this way because I am a musician and that comes before dance. Where would the dancers be without the music!
AWESOME!! I got to see a bunch of dance troupes in full regalia at numerous gig over the st paddy's day season. I remember one girl looking like Tina Turner in Mad Max... TRULY beyond thunderdome.... When they were all dancing together, my only regret was that they weren't on roller skates so they could have done Starlight Express.
That being said i DO know many VERY talented dancers who CAN and PREFER dancing to actual music and not looking like a drag queen. They hate all of it at least as much as we've all expressed.
This has been a very interesting thread. No question there are a lot of negatives about competitive step dancing. I would say though, that all the competitions I have attended used live music, and the first time I encountered fake tan and whigs was on the irish girls at the World Championships in 2002. Nothing like that in the Western U.S. before that. My daughter has been dancing competitively for almost ten years, and has certainly encountered the negatie aspects that have been described. On the other hand, she has developed poise, self-conficdence, and has learned the value of hard work, preparatinon, and commitment to goals she set for herself. She overcame a lot of disappointments over the years, and finally qualified for the Worlds this year, finishing 38th in Belfast. We then spent some time touring Ireland, ad she got the opportunity to dance at two sessions. At the first, she waited until the end, and danced the last set of reels. The musicians, all asked her why she waited so long, and asked her to come back anytime. At the second, we waited to see what the atmosphere was like, and then on a break, she went up to the musicians and told them she was a dancer, and would like to dance if they didn';t mind. The musicians were very welcoming, and she really enjoyed the experience. I think in the future, she will remember the positive experiences, and will probably want to try the other aspects of irish dance.
I definitely agree, I am both a dancer and a musician, and as such, I appreciate how the two mesh. Let me put it this way -
at competitions, live musicians are ALWAYS used, canned music is never used. The musicians used tend to be trained "feis musicians" who know loads of jigs and reels and all thirty Comisiun-sanctioned set dances, and their correct speeds. They're always live, and are often also musicians on the seisun circuit (Sean Og, Damian McKee, and Liam Bradley of Beoga are all feis musicians as well).
at shows, St Patrick's Day, dancing in conjunction with seisun musicians, there are a few reasons that a group of dancers would choose to use canned music. The first would be that they have set up their music tailored specifically to their show. Particular tunes, particular number of bars, sometimes music that changes dance in the middle, are all sometimes manipulated in show dancing to make the show flow better. Secondly, especially if the dancers and the musicians have not met at all prior to the event, it is often simply hard to work out all of the tunes with the live band, especially if the dancers are interspersed between sets of the band. Third, and perhaps most importantly, is that parents of dancers often run shows (they're not all bad), and just because the daughter or son knows irish dancing and music very well, that doesn't mean the mother does. Sometimes the parent running the show just simply doesn't know how to express what she needs done to the musician, and it is far simpler to use the canned music that they know and trust and have been told how to use than to try to express something they don't know much about to the musicians.
Sometimes at shows, especially since I'm a musician, I've been able to work out what I need with the musicians and it does make it very cool, and dancers can't tell much the difference. Basically, a dance is more likely to use canned music because they don't know how not to. If someone is there who knows, they'll use live music.
A comment on the dresses and mothers. Firstly, the mothers aren't all bad. For example, my mother hated dancing and everything that had to do with it. If i didn't do well, I didn't do well. Other mothers cared a lot more. It depends on the mother, they're not all bad. Some are legitimately in it because they like it. On the dresses, An Comisiun has been taking steps at every meeting in the recent past to cut down on the ridiculousness of the dresses. Now, part of the blame for this should be placed on dressmakers, because they are given a lot of freedom in the design process, and they accelerated the ridiculous dress phase in Irish dancing. Steps are being taken though to curb the ridiculousness.
1 Step dancing: As described at the start of this discussion. Solo dancers generally in sparkly costumes that are impossible to dance in for more than one dance at a time, wearing horrendus wigs covered in make up and wearing mounds of fake tan. This is only a generalisation though not all dancers followed this. I didnt. this style of dancing was taught by dancing masters and the rigidness of the dancers was enforced by the clergy who did not approve of man and women dancing together as closely as in set and ceili dancing.
At competitions music is 99.99999% of the time provided by a live musician.
2 Sean nos: Literally old style. Dancers ganerally improvise the steps according to the music being played. Basic steps are common only to a dancers of a region.
3 Ceili: Group dances in numbers form 2 to 10. Dances included in this category include Walls of Limerick, Sweets of May, Seige of Ennnis as well as many other. these dances have set steps with little variations found between teachers and regions.
4 Figure: Again these are danced in groups. Many are refered to as #-hand reel. The Fairy reel therefore is a 6-hand reel, the High Caul Cap an 8-hand reel. These are also found danced at step dancing competitions where there are 2,3,4,6 and 8 hand dances danced. in some cases there are also 16 and 32 hand dances. some of these are exhibion dances. there are no set steps for the majority. those with set steps are generally danced with variations according to the area.
5 Set: These are again group dances. they consist of leads and figures. Each dance contains on average 5 figures. Each figure is danced to different music. The type of tune danced to depends also on the area the dance is coming from. Sets are danced in full (8) or half (4) sets depending on the number of people available to dance the sets.
Hope this is useful to anyone who wanted to know about the dancing found in Ireland
Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
A couple of times I've been to Irish music concerts where they have these young dancing girls with bouncy hair and fancy costumes dancing with their arms to their sides. Is this the dancing that is supposed to go with jigs and reels? If not (and I assume not), what did the dancing look like?
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I'm not an expert that can give you good explanations of the different styles of irish dancing. But maybe Youtube can help:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gI1SbzaKxqg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iqp4I8bNq54&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fYvU7oBBgKA&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RBUY-Nwz0g&feature=related
etc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI0Yhp1VPLQ
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by wbajzek
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
here's a good clip of sean nos style dance where you can see what they're doing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_K8qdY8DQU
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by Brad Maloney
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=svZvAfGQ3J4&NR=1
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by Brad Maloney
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
"young dancing girls with bouncy hair (the ringlet thing) and fancy costumes (short skirts emblazoned with bold overstated embroidery) dancing with their arms to their sides (and toes pointed, and kickin' themselves in the behind)" ~ only canned music, pre-recorded and delivered a la boom box...
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
That's a little smug/glib, ceolachan. Even though you seem to be quoting, it's not typical of your usual thoughtful input here.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Hey sb, this culturally ignorant yank thinks there be three types:
1. Ringlets, sequins, canned music, etc.
2. Set dancing (I like to joke that this is what our square dancing used to be called before it came to this country.)
3. Sean-Nos (solo, improvised from set steps and moves)
You (hopefully) can find set dancing near you. We have a few teachers down this way and one of the cultural clubs has been holding ceili dances. It's a real blast and an education to play for them.
Also, the local school of kiddies with their sequins and ringlets calls yours truly for some live music once in a while, and that's fun too. The kids really appreciate it and I enjoy it as well.
Then there's my horrible fake sean-nos dancing I'll do near the end of the session, after I've played several rounds of "make the pint disappear" but that's a totally different story.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
My daughter is currently in Belfast with bouncy hair (the ringlet thing) and fancy costume (short skirt emblazoned with bold overstated embroidery) dancing with her arms to her sides (and toes pointed, and kickin' herself in the behind), but she is actually doing it all to the live accompaniment of some pretty talented musicians:
http://www.worldirishdancing.com/2008/w08musicians.htm
And while the get-up is strange - and excessively expensive- I wouldn't for a moment sneer at her and her friends' accomplishments and talent, as it is sometimes fashionable to do here.
And I loved all of the sean-nos and set dancing clips above.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I had the pleasure to talk to a young sean nos dancer from Clifden and she explained to me that the 'ringletty costumey' type dancing is quite new. We both agreed that the 'sean nos' style was infinitely more interesting, if for no other reason that it is totally free style and not coreagraphed like the ... and I'm stuck for the term. What DO you call the 'ringletty costumey ' style? Riverdance? New Wave?
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by Farr
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
No, it precedes Riverdance. Been around for a while.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
You might also check out some recently posted videos of sean nos dancing on the comhaltas website; very nice, and in jeans and t-shirts.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by Keith Dubinsky
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I think "step dancing" is the term for the Comisiun le Rinci Gaelacha (i.e., "ringletty costumey") style. It goes back to the turn of the century from what I gather, but grew after Independence in the early 20's. The ringlets also seem to date back to the 1920's, and probably reflect normal hair fashions of the time that got frozen by tradition.
The costumes were a lot plainer originally, but gradually became more and more elaborate over the years. A lot of people would like to turn back the clock on that aspect. The Riverdance show costumes were actually a lot more understated than the ones used currently in competitions.
I think good step dancing is very exciting to watch, but I enjoy all of the different forms equally well.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
grego, so far, for quite a few years, whenever anyone in that get-up has shown up at a session or ceili, despite being offered live music, they have ALWAYS refused it and gone for their canned version. It usually takes at minimum of 15 minutes for them to set up, actually more for full preparation, and then 15 to 30 minutes to do their routine. Then all of them, and their entourage, mothers and whoever else, march out and that's it, it's over with. I have to say, given the whole thing and the AWFUL canned music ~ not before time. It usually takes away from everyone else's enjoyment of both the live music there and dancing. They bring their own audience, but that audience is only interested in their offering, not in contributing to the actual event they impose themselves on. Well, to be fair, they are offered space to do their precocious little exhibition.
It is 'thoughtful', if poisoned by repeat exposure. I admit the bias. However, I wouldn't take their pleasure from them, if that's what they get off on. I just wish it didn't have to overlap on things more 'community' oriented. 'Community' means to me a certain 'respect' and 'consideration' that mostly seems to be lacking with this lot. Sorry grego, that is my experience of it. If they want to do their own thing, fine, but why impose it on others? As well, so many of them are obviously music ignorant, as much of what happens doesn't really seem to do justice to the beat, phrase or melody of the 'traditional music', canned or otherwise.
You could say I don't appreciate it, and you'd be right. I don't. I find it silly, and actually ~ rude. So, I suppose I'm answering in kind...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Oh, and 'expensive' ~ I remember seeing one costume listed at U.S. prices for around $25,000... Somehow I think 'rediculous' is fitting a description of that kind of silliness. It isn't that far removed from the beauty pageant scene for children ~ YUCK!!!
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
"I think good step dancing is very exciting to watch" ~ I agree 100%, good thoughtful and inspired ~ but mostly I haven't found that to be the case where burned hair and gaudy costumes are involved...sorry...that is my experience of it, mostly unpleasant... But, there have been the rare exceptions... My other bias about it, that the form, and its exaggerations, are by their own statements for at the eldest ~ teens, with few exceptions. The idea is that post 18 you're over the hill. That isn't the case with the 'older' styles it was based on and exaggerated from, 'sean nos', where you can pretty much dance till you drop. I've known some fine sean nos dancing seniors. For one, they don't kick themselves in the ass, it could lead to a crippling injury...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I stuck two Coimisiun all-Irelands, and the thing that stuck in my mind was that it was mostly about the parents...a bit like those stage parents at drama schools. Worse were the black and blue marks left by disappointed parents when their kids screwed up or didn't win a medal or trophy... I think that's pretty say actually.
'good step dancing', whatever the form, doesn't step all over the music or stand in front of it ~ it accompanies it, complements it. Sadly, that is a rare gift...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I'll second you here ceol. We played a gig on the Friday of Paddy's weekend just gone. We were supposed to be intercalated with a dancing school - who - as you rightly point out - opted for their own canned music, rather than the real thing (us). In the end we must have played about 20-30 minutes in total - just two spots -and got paid quite well for it. In the interim, there were choice pieces we had to sit through though - things like Tam Lin played on a synth on pan-pipes sample, whilst all the kids went leppin around - in time I suppose. At least they enjoyed it. But it's now all a far cry from playing at Aras na Gael in Kilburn for the dancers as I had done many years before.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Nick Splease
correciotn ~ "I think that's pretty sad" (not 'say')
~ still shot!!! ~ and less than patient...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
But, how do your REALLY feel about it, ceol. Don't hold back now.
Anyway, I've told my daughter to give you space, and not be upsetting you. She really means well...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I can imagine how you feel, Danny. I've had a few good experiences where we played for the dancers and everyone had great craic, but I've seen them dance to the James Last stuff as well and it is pretty sad.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Oh I felt alright - the $$ signs were in my eyes. Just a shame it has all come to this schizophrenic state, though. Didn't someone - one of the Aussie contingent, greenwiggle maybe, post a discussion, a few years ago, about the 3 leaves of the shamrock coming apart?
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Nick Splease
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
grego, I never saw you as a drama ma, or da, and I suspect your young-un, ringlets or not, would not send me up the twist. I am more patient than my bark lets on. If her heart is in it then my patience would be unlimited, all else aside. I have respect for people's hearts and passions, if not for egos and the precocious, not even my own when it flares up...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
"3 leaves of the shamrock coming apart" ~ ??? I'm going to have to drop greenwiggle an email...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Trust me, ceolachan. As is the case with most teenagers, she could send anyone up the twist.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
That I'm used to, having done some work with delinquents and teen criminals...which I'm sure your daughter isn't... One of my most enjoyable dance sharing experiences was in a prison for young offenders. It was a lot of fun. We did a lot of laughing, but there were teary moments too. I'd take that over canned music and the general run of Irish dance schools any day...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Leaflets, please, not leaves.
Steve (B.Sc ARCS and bar, botany, 1972)
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I'm not into the image that irish dance promotes these days (one of the reasons i don't compete anymore) I would MUCH prefer to get up at a session or jump up on stage with a band anytime... it's soo much more spontaeous and fun.
One of the reasons that dance schools use piped music is it's a lot easier for a child say 11yrs & under to get up and do a display to music they have been dancing to in class. Unfortunately it's not always an option to have a live muso in class... altho i'd be totally cool with that!
I do have to add that Irish Dance rocks! And underneath all the glitz and glam there are some AMAZING dancers that deserve some recognition for all their hard work.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by davydd
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
< They bring their own audience, but that audience is only interested in their offering, not in contributing to the actual event they impose themselves on.>
Amen Amen AMEN! Last year I was hired as a small 'side act' for the Dublin OH Irish Festival in Aug. I was checking out the program, and noticed that during some of my off time the Armagh Rhymers were going to be performing nearby. I was so fascinated by what these folks do I had thought about making a special trip to Wash DC just to see them at the Folklife festival earlier in the summer. When I found out they would be at Dublin, I was thrilled. I got to their stage maybe 15 minutes early, and it was already awash in a sea of bobbing little ringlets. Not only were all these girls chattering away, their mothers were even louder. More and more kept filtering in, and as each new pack arrived those already seated had to start shouting and yammering, and all of this continued and got WORSE as the Rhymers started. People got up and walked around, shouted, answered cell phones, squealed giggled and bellowed through the entire show. I was livid to say the least.
Here was an incredibly rare opportunity to see a slice of genuine culture in front of your face, but nope... far better to act like a troop of baboons. I wish that I could say that this type of experience was unique, but over the past fifteen years at various festivals I must admit this type of behavior is becoming alarmingly common.
Then there's the pipe bands... oh my.......
WireHarp
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by WireHarp
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
As a parent of a Step Dancer who is now in Belfast I feel I have to put a word in here.
Much of C's complaints are about the ugly parent syndrome which is as unattractive in dancing as it is in sport. The second complaint is about the sequins, wigs and dresses. Well that has evolved over the years and the girls who enjoy the dancing have no say over that part even if they don't like it.
My daughter and her friends spent the day before St Pat's day doing some of those dance displays in pubs with recorded music - getting well paid for it. But they didn't intrude on any sessions and they didn't wear the sequins. Just their own hair and black skirts.
They finished off the day dancing at a finale of a concert I had put together. I only asked my daughter but her two friends insisted on coming along as well though none were paid for it. They did it for the pleasure and fun of it.
I do enjoy watching a good (step) dancer but hate all the attached glitz/glamour stuff; and to play for good dancers is always a joy whether they are step dancers or set dancers. Not much Sean Nos around my neck of the woods unfortunately.
End of rant!
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Donough
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Congratulations Donough, doesn't matter if she placed or not - it's hard enough to get good enough to get over there to compete in the first place.
I have many thoughts on this subject as in a previous incarnation I was one of the fellas who would break out in high steppin dance. Back when they made us wear kilts.
I did manage to travel over and compete a few times. The second time was my ruination as in the Salthill Hotel I managed to meet and hear some of the best trad musicians in Ireland. They were just there for the sessions and craic - not the competition itself - although Cathal Hayden and Brian McGrath et al did play for some lucky competitors. Anyway, that's when I started to neglect the steps and pick up the strings.
I do detest the glamour and glitz that it has come to represent - and the shame is that the majority are no longer able to recognise trad tunes unless played on the stomach steinway.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Greenwiggle
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Thanks Greenwiggle but I had little or nothing to do with her getting to the stage of competing at the World's so I cant take any credit. I Doubt she will even get a 'recall', but she has gone to enjoy herself and wont fret over it.
But I do love that phase 'the stomach steinway" !!
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Donough
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
davydd did some wicked good dancing at the nash! perfect and pretension free. (not to mention one mysterious dancing superhero who put in a mighty effort!)
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by kjay_bc_box
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
A troupe of ringletty boom-box wrigglers near us wear that many sequins on their outfits, they all look like Wonder-Woman.
I have all on to keep the band quiet - they always collapse in giggles.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Nice balance Donough... I've never turned anyone away, but where I've had some involvement in setting 'limits', I've not delayed in doing so. Where I've been one of the primary organizers ~ canned music has always been banned, live or nothing. Also, costumes banned to. What I've found is that those dependant on 'canned & costumed' are generally not interested in much else, they arrive for their moment of fame and once their display is over they are quickly away. For those for which our rules of no 'canned or costumed' ~ the opposite seems true. They tend to show for the whole event and enjoy the efforts of others, show respect and appreciation ~ something I have respect and appreciation for... As it is generally children, I don't show my aggravation but keep it to myself. But it is usually raised even if kept relatively quiet. In general I find 'canned & costumed' to show little or no respect for the tradition it is a sad comic stereotype of... As said, if I'm directly involved in organizing something, I won't support further that sad comic stereotype... I do appreciate the efforts and sacrafice to accomplish skill, at anything, but there are limits to what I'll put up with, and we have walked out of ceilis and sessions that were turned into dance school performances... (1/2 hour and more)
Congratulations to your daughter Donough ~ and davydd and Greenwiggle, I have no doubts at all I'd enjoy your stepping, or Donough's or grego's daughter. Even more, I'd love to see Donough and grego dance a few...
I have pictures of early costumes, and the ones of the 1920s are a hoot... I wonder if that fashion will eventually be revived?
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Hmm...I've always been a bit tempted to take up the poodle-hair white-sock 10k-costume kind of dancing...what you do reckon guys?
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by mehitabel23
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Yeah, and me in a little green suit dressed up as a leprechaun with buckled shoes, with clay pipe and all. Only please, give me a decent rod and reel and set me up somewhere I can get a decent catch of Mackerel, maybe the North end of Inis Meain, then I don't have to worry about anyone catching me...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
i have always cringed at the sequin dancing described here, but after reading these various opinions, i'm more willing to maintain an open mind. i like the no-canned-music rule, but the each their fun. to a point.
and my point here, is to thank you all for a wide ranging discussion, with only good-humored griping. i like getting educated on the various points of view, it's what i come here for. mostly.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by full measure
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
As far as I am aware the whole ringletted dolls, false tan, gaudy dresses is a purely American thing that has somehow come over to this side of the pond. Either way it has absolutely nothing to do with culture, Irish or otherwise, and not even much to do with dancing, and the music is totally immaterial. Its all to do with winning, and comes very close to child abuse in my opinion, and certainly is an abuse of Irish dancing traditions however it originated. Total waste of time and money for both children and parents. Buy them a tin whistle!
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by bullwall
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I always feel that apart from the expense of having a dancer in competitions, there is also an awful lot of bitchiness and 'win at all cost' attitude among the mammy's. I remember the step dancers at out local feis in the forties. They all wore a saffron kilt, a green cape and black stockings. The boys also wore a saffron kilt, which was a distinct deterrent for us lads to have anything to do with Irish Dancing. Instead a gang of us use to gather under the dancing floats and look up through the cracks. I was only six at the time so I had no idea what my older brothers were watching??????????
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I saw an interesting short documentary about American girls who did Irish dancing and went to competitions and things. Mostly it was just interviews with the girls and how they felt about the whole thing.... and as you might imagine, mostly they were talking about how they liked the dancing itself but hated all the pressure. They really seemed to be under a HUGE HUGE HUGE amount of pressure as far as dancing and all (parents, but also at the schools). I think that pretty much every single girl interviewed wanted to quit dancing. None of them were given much time for themselves, between school and dancing.
Anyway, I thought it was an interesting film. I think I saw it on Veoh or something like that, back when it was still free. Maybe it's still available online some place?
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by gretchen
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
It's on youtube...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmtQCLvPwnE
ha ha... it's not exactly the way I remember it, but anyway...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by gretchen
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
You can view "The Real Lord of The Dance" here.....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=maN01SMhVAI&feature=related
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Back for a while
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
What's the difference between a competition step dancer's mother and a rabid, half-starved pit bull?
The jewelry!!!!
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
With some regularity at one of our local sessions, two of our musicians (a fiddler and a whistler) switch back and forth between competitive step and sean nos style dancing to our 'live' music. They have practiced steps they've learned from Kieran Jordan and others as well as steps they've needed for competitive Irish stepdancing. Not everyone is limited to 'boxed up' music for their stepping routines! Thank goodness...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by vonnieestes
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
bullwall: "As far as I am aware the whole ringletted dolls, false tan, gaudy dresses is a purely American thing that has somehow come over to this side of the pond"
That's interesting, and certainly has the ring of truth about it given similar exports of Americana. However, I have been told (perhaps incorrectly) that the opposite is true: the ringlets, false tan, and dress gaudiness has been almost completely driven by the schools and competitors in Ireland. Do you have some additional background?
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
The majority of dance schools run in the western united states are founded and operated by irish born transplants, so the blame for ringlet wigs and barbie-doll make-up on 9 year olds, etc should be shared equally across the pond. However, I did find it very encouraging to hear Helen Gannon, North American Chair of Comhaltas, flat out disavow that sort of thing in her recent presentation at our Phoenix Irish Cultural center.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
A friend of mine used to describe the dresses as "Having had the Book of Kells vomited over them", which seems a fair description.
French and Saunders took it off in a sketch many years ago; Dawn French, for the unacquainted Americans, is no small lass, so they actually over-grotesqued it, if that is possible.
There was also a discussion a while ago re the dancers not crediting the performers whose cds, or whatever, they were dancing to, not even in a programmme with charged admission.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I'm going to hop on the "Yeah! Quit blaming us Yanks for everything!" bandwagon here, not that I have anything meaningful to add.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
"Having had the Book of Kells vomited over them" would actually look (and smell) quite different, IMHO.
But we'll probably never know for certain...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
My ex-wife is a TCRG (certified Irish dance teacher). This is as best as I can recall her understanding of the deal:
As to the current styles (expensive $5,000 dresses, wigs, fake tans) have Riverdance to blame, somewhat. RD came out and had very simple costumes with little adornment. For a while in Irish dance it was fashionable to copy that for competition, but An Coimisiun reacted against that (somewhat I think because the competitors started to get a little revealing). They began to dictate what the silhouette of an Irish Dancer must look like, the flared dresses and all with "celtic" style designs on them. People began then to compete within those boundaries, doing whatever they could to get noticed by the judges.
In the end, I think much of what people here don't like about Irish dancing has much to do with what has happened to it because of competition.
and congrats to Grego and Donough, you should be proud of your kids!
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by dirtyheel
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
These costumes must have cost a fortune....They are all made from fur....must be very warm to dance in. !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQ2nVL1-XFk
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I enjoyed the video with the men and women couples dancing. That is what I was hoping to see. Real dancing. Reminds me a little bit of country dancing here in the States.
The other kind of dancing where people aren't paired up is more like a contest or a show.
I like the bouncy ringlet girls and I've never seen them do their thing without live music. I guess I really am ignorant on that issue. In my area we probably have some schools for this, but the big thing here is flamenco and it's just as obnoxious with the moms from hell and all that.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
What a great bunch. I was needing cheering up as I've spent the whole damn day, or most of it, fighting digital demons, problems with an Internet security suite and lack of Internet access, when I had a load of work to do that was dependant on a working computer and access, both of which weren't happening. It seems the 'lurgy' jumped from me to the computer... I appreciate the laughs, and the kindness you have all sown.
Good one Free Reed...
"Having had the Book of Kells vomited over them" ~ I'd forgotten about that one...
Has anyone seen the Shirley Temple in it all? I have to admit I am a lover and admirer of Bojangles...and I loved the old Shirley Temple movies... Sad, eh...
Flamenco, what folks mostly don't know about that from all the hype and the 'commercial' version mostly put forward. I had the blessing of seeing older Flamenco dancers, no costumes, and what a difference, and we've been similarly graced with regards to the tango... It can be beautiful. In both cases it was short plumpish older couples and they were the most beautiful thing I'd ever seen as regards these dance forms. I had little respect or interest in it at all until I saw it in that 'natural' and relaxed and unpompous way. It gives me goose bumps just remembering them...
The wigs in all this is a new thing, they really did use to take hot tongues to the poor children and burn the hair into ringlets. It isn't new... It also used to be crusty old men that were heading up the organization, and the costumes may say something about that...sadly...
One of the reasons why I have 'strong' feelings about this is the number Irish teens and older Irish folks I'd come across outside of our 'inner circles' who would have nothing at all to do with what we care about ~ didn't want to know anything about 'diddly music' and its associate forms. Many of them had been put through the ropes and it had left them with a lasting distaste, even hate, for it all. They'd been those little children being pinched black and blue for not winning the ribbon or medal or trophy. That makes me sad, as I wouldn't want anything to be so vile as to slam the door on what might have started as an honest and heartfelt interest, but which was spoiled in the push and shove of it all...
I do love dance ~ if not in all its guises, exaggerations and perversions...
Thanks again for helping to put me in a good mood before sleep, much appreciated. You really are (mostly) a lovely and considerate bunch...
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
C if you are still there : don't know about Grego but you really don't want to see me dance. I have been known to cause the collapse of the Walls of Limerick and turned the siege of Ennis into a slaughter!
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by Donough
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I'd better pass too. My recurring nightmare is when we had to do the High Caul Cap in the Gaeltacht, the girls would be screaming at me .. "no, no, no! YOU're supposed to be over there... whatchya think you're doing? For God's sake this is the part you're supposed to swing... Yer in the WRONG PLACE!!!" (All "as Gaeilge," of course.)
Waltz ar an sean nos .. now that was the one for me. And outside for a bit of fresh air and a mineral after.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by grego
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SK8VGvQ8aQ
Well, these seem to be having fun.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by session savage
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
That was a choreography and a half. Yes SS, let's have those as the new national costume...
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
And as Dustin so pithily puts it 'Give us another chance, forgive us for Riverdance' - well said!
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by bullwall
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Dustin's a good man...er...bird...er...what the heck is he again?
I love the beach bunnies, SS! HA! What a riot! I see plenty of Floridian possiblities for that...
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Speaking of our turkey and Riverdance:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ns1IxsiZ6WM
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
Well the sessions this weekend were blessed by a fellow who carried a roll of wood floor, layed it down and danced the most amazing rhythms with his tap shoes.... dont know exactly what style but it was great!!!! [too busy playing to really look]
The intricate foot work was far out. And no sequins to be seen
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
The comments and discussions on this thread were interesting to this pianist who was ignorant of the history and the reasons behind the elaborate costumes and the specific steps and moves of this style of dancing.
On the rare occasions when a dancer visited our local session, I have had the pleasure of playing for them and I have enjoyed it.
Unfortunately, the local Irish Session seems to have been taken over by fools who don't seem to think I am good enough or competent enough to play piano for dancers. As a result, it has been years since I have had the opportunity to play for dancers at the local session. Nor am I ever asked to play piano for a local folk dance group any more.
On the other hand, though, there are some musicians at the local session who say they want and need me at the session to help keep the beat steady because I supposedly have such a good sense of rhythm and timing.
This is confusing to me because if I supposedly have such a good sense of rhythm and timing and can maintain a steady beat, then it seems to me that I would be an asset to anyone who was trying to accompany dancers.
One more comment.....I have seen Dawn French on some of the programs from the United Kingdom which have been shown here in the United States and I have noticed that she is "slightly overweight".
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
"young dancing girls with bouncy hair (the ringlet thing) and fancy costumes (short skirts emblazoned with bold overstated embroidery) dancing with their arms to their sides (and toes pointed, and kickin' themselves in the behind)" ~ only canned music, pre-recorded and delivered a la boom box...
As an Irish dancer I totally agree with that, it's disgusting. I do it for fun, my mother is not a lunatic, i don't wear a wig, i don't have a sickening sparkley dress, i don't wear mounds of makeup, i would much rather have live music, and ceili's are so much more fun than dancing by yourself. I think we should all protest the dresses (just the grotesque ones, the plain ones are with actual celtic designs are good) and the wigs, any help is appreciated.
By the way I probably think this way because I am a musician and that comes before dance. Where would the dancers be without the music!
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by keelin
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
These are some dance dresses that will be sure to make you puke:
http://www.dance-again.com/X304.html
http://www.dance-again.com/X407.html
http://www.dance-again.com/X432.html
http://www.dance-again.com/X534.html
I'm sorry I couldn't resist
Here is one that I think I could wear:
http://www.dance-again.com/X403.html
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by keelin
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
AWESOME!! I got to see a bunch of dance troupes in full regalia at numerous gig over the st paddy's day season. I remember one girl looking like Tina Turner in Mad Max... TRULY beyond thunderdome.... When they were all dancing together, my only regret was that they weren't on roller skates so they could have done Starlight Express.
That being said i DO know many VERY talented dancers who CAN and PREFER dancing to actual music and not looking like a drag queen. They hate all of it at least as much as we've all expressed.
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by chrysophylax
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
And did you see the price of the dresses ! even more than a brand new Kilt!
You could buy a reasonable instrument for the cost of one of them .
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
This has been a very interesting thread. No question there are a lot of negatives about competitive step dancing. I would say though, that all the competitions I have attended used live music, and the first time I encountered fake tan and whigs was on the irish girls at the World Championships in 2002. Nothing like that in the Western U.S. before that. My daughter has been dancing competitively for almost ten years, and has certainly encountered the negatie aspects that have been described. On the other hand, she has developed poise, self-conficdence, and has learned the value of hard work, preparatinon, and commitment to goals she set for herself. She overcame a lot of disappointments over the years, and finally qualified for the Worlds this year, finishing 38th in Belfast. We then spent some time touring Ireland, ad she got the opportunity to dance at two sessions. At the first, she waited until the end, and danced the last set of reels. The musicians, all asked her why she waited so long, and asked her to come back anytime. At the second, we waited to see what the atmosphere was like, and then on a break, she went up to the musicians and told them she was a dancer, and would like to dance if they didn';t mind. The musicians were very welcoming, and she really enjoyed the experience. I think in the future, she will remember the positive experiences, and will probably want to try the other aspects of irish dance.
# Posted on April 8th 2008 by raincross_whistler
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
I definitely agree, I am both a dancer and a musician, and as such, I appreciate how the two mesh. Let me put it this way -
at competitions, live musicians are ALWAYS used, canned music is never used. The musicians used tend to be trained "feis musicians" who know loads of jigs and reels and all thirty Comisiun-sanctioned set dances, and their correct speeds. They're always live, and are often also musicians on the seisun circuit (Sean Og, Damian McKee, and Liam Bradley of Beoga are all feis musicians as well).
at shows, St Patrick's Day, dancing in conjunction with seisun musicians, there are a few reasons that a group of dancers would choose to use canned music. The first would be that they have set up their music tailored specifically to their show. Particular tunes, particular number of bars, sometimes music that changes dance in the middle, are all sometimes manipulated in show dancing to make the show flow better. Secondly, especially if the dancers and the musicians have not met at all prior to the event, it is often simply hard to work out all of the tunes with the live band, especially if the dancers are interspersed between sets of the band. Third, and perhaps most importantly, is that parents of dancers often run shows (they're not all bad), and just because the daughter or son knows irish dancing and music very well, that doesn't mean the mother does. Sometimes the parent running the show just simply doesn't know how to express what she needs done to the musician, and it is far simpler to use the canned music that they know and trust and have been told how to use than to try to express something they don't know much about to the musicians.
Sometimes at shows, especially since I'm a musician, I've been able to work out what I need with the musicians and it does make it very cool, and dancers can't tell much the difference. Basically, a dance is more likely to use canned music because they don't know how not to. If someone is there who knows, they'll use live music.
A comment on the dresses and mothers. Firstly, the mothers aren't all bad. For example, my mother hated dancing and everything that had to do with it. If i didn't do well, I didn't do well. Other mothers cared a lot more. It depends on the mother, they're not all bad. Some are legitimately in it because they like it. On the dresses, An Comisiun has been taking steps at every meeting in the recent past to cut down on the ridiculousness of the dresses. Now, part of the blame for this should be placed on dressmakers, because they are given a lot of freedom in the design process, and they accelerated the ridiculous dress phase in Irish dancing. Steps are being taken though to curb the ridiculousness.
# Posted on April 26th 2008 by agoeb
Re: Dancing (warning, culturally ignorant question)
To begin with there are 5 types of Irish dancing:
1 Step dancing: As described at the start of this discussion. Solo dancers generally in sparkly costumes that are impossible to dance in for more than one dance at a time, wearing horrendus wigs covered in make up and wearing mounds of fake tan. This is only a generalisation though not all dancers followed this. I didnt. this style of dancing was taught by dancing masters and the rigidness of the dancers was enforced by the clergy who did not approve of man and women dancing together as closely as in set and ceili dancing.
At competitions music is 99.99999% of the time provided by a live musician.
2 Sean nos: Literally old style. Dancers ganerally improvise the steps according to the music being played. Basic steps are common only to a dancers of a region.
3 Ceili: Group dances in numbers form 2 to 10. Dances included in this category include Walls of Limerick, Sweets of May, Seige of Ennnis as well as many other. these dances have set steps with little variations found between teachers and regions.
4 Figure: Again these are danced in groups. Many are refered to as #-hand reel. The Fairy reel therefore is a 6-hand reel, the High Caul Cap an 8-hand reel. These are also found danced at step dancing competitions where there are 2,3,4,6 and 8 hand dances danced. in some cases there are also 16 and 32 hand dances. some of these are exhibion dances. there are no set steps for the majority. those with set steps are generally danced with variations according to the area.
5 Set: These are again group dances. they consist of leads and figures. Each dance contains on average 5 figures. Each figure is danced to different music. The type of tune danced to depends also on the area the dance is coming from. Sets are danced in full (8) or half (4) sets depending on the number of people available to dance the sets.
Hope this is useful to anyone who wanted to know about the dancing found in Ireland
# Posted on January 8th 2009 by Fiddler101