Er ..........call me stupid but what is a 'crooked' tune . I have never come across that term before.
Maybe I or someone else will know the answer( maybe not ) if we knew what a crooked tune is /was ?
Exactly which tune? Breton dance tunes, like the 'An Dro', are not 'crooked', if they were they'd be hell to dance to, and the 'An Dro' fits a specific dance with a specific count, or set of steps and movements. 'Crooked' usually means a missing or added beat, or a change in time signature that occurs in a single moment, like one bar. Such things would potentially destroy a tune. 'Crooked' tunes became popular in the 20th Century in Quebec, mostly to do with reels. They were mostly show numbers, but you could also dance to them as what they might accompany was generally 'walked' and an occassional missed or added beat doesn't cause a lot of trouble in the classic 32 bar tune, or 64 steps. so, if it lost or added something, well, no sweat, no real problem, but with a Breton tune, or an An Dro, that would be nuts...personally speaking, from experience...
So, it might help us if you told us exactly which melody you're referring to here, please? 'Danse Antique' ~ ? That just means 'ancient dance'... There isn't just one... With these older forms, 'crooked' generally didn't happen... Their 'geometry' tending toward the norm, basically symmetrical...
Are you meaning a recent composition that someone has simply tagged 'Danse Antique'? That isn't uncommon either, even when they bear little or no resemblence to an 'ancient dance'... We are an inventive lot, though mostly not to any particularly pleasant end...IMHO... Sometimes we luck out.
I appreciate all of the comments thus far. Danse Antique is the generic name given to one of the tunes within a Middle School "alternative show piece" entitled Les Québécois. It is a crooked tune (ending each phrase with a 2/4 bar). Below I have attached a link to the publishing house and if you have the patience to listen to the end of the piece, you will encounter what is "labeled" Danse Antique. I am hoping to find recordings of this final tune in order to better equip my students to learn the style. Thanks so much! http://www.alfred.com/alfredweb/front/ProductDetail.aspx?itemnum=%20%20%20%20%2026608&pubnum=0
I know all three tunes, all three are actually 'straight', not crooked, but the arranger takes liberties toward the end... The third also feels like the A-part of one tune and the B-part of another... I'll return with more later...
This was driving me nuts. It is played all over North America, including for the dance form known as 'contras' or 'New England contras'. It has more of a 2/4 feel, like another form not unknown to Quebec, the polka piquée...
3.) ~ both parts, as said, are familiar, but don't quite feel right together. The A-part is found in the well known tune "The Bunch of Keys", for which there are a lot of versions, it is that popular ~
I had a word with tooty about dancing to this stuff and got the standard reply 'non' and a big gallic shrug.
Would be interesting to know more about this school .
As said earlier ~ agreed. The first two are classic French Canadian dance tunes but not as 'arranged' here. The thirds seems to be a Chimera of several, but basically a 32 bar reel, also usually a dance form, but not as arranged... You couldn't even squeeze a decent march out of them as given on that MP3 link...
"La Bastringue" is also a specific dance, a lovely simple circle mixer... The description for the dance is given in the 'comments' for the tune... I asked a couple of Quebec based musicians and they also didn't know those two parts in the 3rd tune as a unit... Others asked also didn't recognize them as a collective whole, though several other tunes were given for the parts seperately... I suspect the 'arranger' took liberties, including the daft attempt to unnaturally put a crook in it at the end...
The slowest you could take these and still have some 'dance' left in them, though more of a march, is 100 bpm, but more ideally, as an average, 120 bpm ~ meaning 2 beats to the measure ~ 4/4 as 2/2, as 'reels' are generally treated despite the time signature being 4/4...
Thanks again for all of your effort. The tempo above is where we were starting in order to put a little more life into the arrangement. How disappointing/frustrating about the third tune. I plan to email the arranger directly and fwd his response.
As for my school district- this is the 11th year that I have taught in a small publc school district in S. St. Louis Co. Old Time/Bluegrass fiddling is something that I was raised with via Texas to Indiana. I have incorporated the standards within an extracurricular Fiddle group since '92. (Taught in IN prior to StL)
My sister is a celtic fiddler in the Salem area. Some years back the addition of various celtic tunes were added to the school Fiddler list.
Back to the original topic, if you would happen to have a link/advice pertaining to chordal and rhythmic accompaniment, I may attempt to correct some of the problems in this piece. I have the "Party Acadien" cd with Eddy Arsenault on the way to help a bit with the first two tune. Unfortunately the kids like the third the best. It is arranged with more movement.
Andrew H. Dabczynski-
"I learned Danse Antique from a New England/Quebecois fiddler friend of mine named Greg Boardman. Only last summer did Greg help me put two and two together to realize that Danse Antique is really a crooked Quebecois version of Paddy on the Turnpike (sometimes Paddy on the Railway) – which you’ll find in a hundred Irish collections, I suspect."
"The only recording of Danse Antique that I know of is Greg’s own CD album called “Century Reel.” Look at http://www.bowandstring.com/ "
cd is out of stock... any thoughts on making this tune crooked?
In general it isn't about 'making tunes crooked', but making tunes that are crooked. The best crooked tunes seem to have it in their genes ~ they go there somehow naturally. Yes, these two parts, on their own, are quite nice, but the 'crooked' treatment doesn't lie well with them, not as I'm hearing it. It has a slightly forced feel about it. A good Quebecois crooked tune surprises but not with discomfort, there is more humour than artifice in the twist.
I am not opposed to 'arranging', as some may be, or 'orchestrations', as that can be another in toward growing an appreciation of the roots to it all. And I am definitely not against 'crooked', as many friends have raised my appreciation for that too, but this just doesn't ring true, whatever the original source.... Maybe we need a new discussion on 'favourite crooked tunes'?
Good luck, my heart is with you. 'Chording' is more usually abusive, in that too often the understanding of the modal chaaracter of the tune is neglected for something more comfortably 'normal', sacraficing some of the character of the melodies and the tradition... However, these 4 tunes (2 half parts) fit an easier scheme...
Danse Antique
Danse Antique
I am looking for alternate names, recordings of this crooked tune. An Dro and Danse Breton pop up as alternates, but their not crooked. Any thoughts?
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by LMichelle
Re: Danse Antique
Er ..........call me stupid but what is a 'crooked' tune . I have never come across that term before.
Maybe I or someone else will know the answer( maybe not ) if we knew what a crooked tune is /was ?
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Danse Antique
Exactly which tune? Breton dance tunes, like the 'An Dro', are not 'crooked', if they were they'd be hell to dance to, and the 'An Dro' fits a specific dance with a specific count, or set of steps and movements. 'Crooked' usually means a missing or added beat, or a change in time signature that occurs in a single moment, like one bar. Such things would potentially destroy a tune. 'Crooked' tunes became popular in the 20th Century in Quebec, mostly to do with reels. They were mostly show numbers, but you could also dance to them as what they might accompany was generally 'walked' and an occassional missed or added beat doesn't cause a lot of trouble in the classic 32 bar tune, or 64 steps. so, if it lost or added something, well, no sweat, no real problem, but with a Breton tune, or an An Dro, that would be nuts...personally speaking, from experience...
So, it might help us if you told us exactly which melody you're referring to here, please? 'Danse Antique' ~ ? That just means 'ancient dance'... There isn't just one... With these older forms, 'crooked' generally didn't happen... Their 'geometry' tending toward the norm, basically symmetrical...
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Correction ~ Such things would potentially destroy a 'dance'...like the An Dro...
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Danse Antique
Are you meaning a recent composition that someone has simply tagged 'Danse Antique'? That isn't uncommon either, even when they bear little or no resemblence to an 'ancient dance'... We are an inventive lot, though mostly not to any particularly pleasant end...IMHO...
Sometimes we luck out.
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Danse Antique
I appreciate all of the comments thus far. Danse Antique is the generic name given to one of the tunes within a Middle School "alternative show piece" entitled Les Québécois. It is a crooked tune (ending each phrase with a 2/4 bar). Below I have attached a link to the publishing house and if you have the patience to listen to the end of the piece, you will encounter what is "labeled" Danse Antique. I am hoping to find recordings of this final tune in order to better equip my students to learn the style. Thanks so much!
http://www.alfred.com/alfredweb/front/ProductDetail.aspx?itemnum=%20%20%20%20%2026608&pubnum=0
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by LMichelle
Re: Danse Antique
I know all three tunes, all three are actually 'straight', not crooked, but the arranger takes liberties toward the end... The third also feels like the A-part of one tune and the B-part of another... I'll return with more later...
Here's the middle tune on site here:
2.) La Bastringue
Key signature: D Major
Submitted on August 29th 2003 by dafydd.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/3052
This arrangement is interesting but knocks the dance out of these melodies, each is a well known dance tune...
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Danse Antique
1.) "Reel De Gaspé"
Key signature: G Major
Submitted on January 2nd 2007 by nicholas.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/6581
This was driving me nuts. It is played all over North America, including for the dance form known as 'contras' or 'New England contras'. It has more of a 2/4 feel, like another form not unknown to Quebec, the polka piquée...
3.) ~ both parts, as said, are familiar, but don't quite feel right together. The A-part is found in the well known tune "The Bunch of Keys", for which there are a lot of versions, it is that popular ~
"The Bunch of Keys" ~ A part / B part ~ familiar but not coming to me
Key signature: G Dorian
Submitted on October 31st 2001 by Will CPT.
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/344
http://www.ibiblio.org/fiddlers/BUL_BUS.htm#BUNCH_OF_KEYS_[1]
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Danse Antique
3.) ~ Here's a quick transcription from memory after hearing the link you provided, close if not 100% ~
K: Gmix
|: DEGA GFGA | BGdG eGdG | D^CDE FEFG | AFcF dFcF |
DEGA GFGA | BABc d^cde | fefd cBAc | BAGF G4 :|
K: Dmix
|: d2 Ad FdAd | d2 fd edcd | c2 Gc EcGc | c2 ec dcBc |
d2 Ad FdAd | d2 fd edcd | cBAF GFEG | FED^C D4 :|
3.) ~ "Paddy Kelly's" ~ another reel that bears some similarities, though 4-parts... Here's the part that bears the closest similarity, up a 4th ~
K: Gmix
|: g2 dg bgdg | g2 bg afde | f2 cf Afcf | f2 af fde^f |
g2 dg bgdg | g2 bg afde | fefa gefd |[1 cA^FA GABd :|[2 cA^FA G2 |]
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Danse Antique
I had a word with tooty about dancing to this stuff and got the standard reply 'non' and a big gallic shrug.
Would be interesting to know more about this school .
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by bazouki dave and the real tooty flutey
Re: Danse Antique
As said earlier ~ agreed. The first two are classic French Canadian dance tunes but not as 'arranged' here. The thirds seems to be a Chimera of several, but basically a 32 bar reel, also usually a dance form, but not as arranged... You couldn't even squeeze a decent march out of them as given on that MP3 link...
"La Bastringue" is also a specific dance, a lovely simple circle mixer... The description for the dance is given in the 'comments' for the tune... I asked a couple of Quebec based musicians and they also didn't know those two parts in the 3rd tune as a unit... Others asked also didn't recognize them as a collective whole, though several other tunes were given for the parts seperately... I suspect the 'arranger' took liberties, including the daft attempt to unnaturally put a crook in it at the end...
Sorry we couldn't help more...
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Danse Antique
The slowest you could take these and still have some 'dance' left in them, though more of a march, is 100 bpm, but more ideally, as an average, 120 bpm ~ meaning 2 beats to the measure ~ 4/4 as 2/2, as 'reels' are generally treated despite the time signature being 4/4...
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Danse Antique
Thanks again for all of your effort. The tempo above is where we were starting in order to put a little more life into the arrangement. How disappointing/frustrating about the third tune. I plan to email the arranger directly and fwd his response.
As for my school district- this is the 11th year that I have taught in a small publc school district in S. St. Louis Co. Old Time/Bluegrass fiddling is something that I was raised with via Texas to Indiana. I have incorporated the standards within an extracurricular Fiddle group since '92. (Taught in IN prior to StL)
My sister is a celtic fiddler in the Salem area. Some years back the addition of various celtic tunes were added to the school Fiddler list.
Back to the original topic, if you would happen to have a link/advice pertaining to chordal and rhythmic accompaniment, I may attempt to correct some of the problems in this piece. I have the "Party Acadien" cd with Eddy Arsenault on the way to help a bit with the first two tune. Unfortunately the kids like the third the best. It is arranged with more movement.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by LMichelle
Re: Danse Antique
Heard from the arranger!!! fwd below...
Andrew H. Dabczynski-
"I learned Danse Antique from a New England/Quebecois fiddler friend of mine named Greg Boardman. Only last summer did Greg help me put two and two together to realize that Danse Antique is really a crooked Quebecois version of Paddy on the Turnpike (sometimes Paddy on the Railway) – which you’ll find in a hundred Irish collections, I suspect."
"The only recording of Danse Antique that I know of is Greg’s own CD album called “Century Reel.” Look at http://www.bowandstring.com/ "
cd is out of stock... any thoughts on making this tune crooked?
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by LMichelle
Re: Danse Antique
In general it isn't about 'making tunes crooked', but making tunes that are crooked. The best crooked tunes seem to have it in their genes ~ they go there somehow naturally. Yes, these two parts, on their own, are quite nice, but the 'crooked' treatment doesn't lie well with them, not as I'm hearing it. It has a slightly forced feel about it. A good Quebecois crooked tune surprises but not with discomfort, there is more humour than artifice in the twist.
I am not opposed to 'arranging', as some may be, or 'orchestrations', as that can be another in toward growing an appreciation of the roots to it all. And I am definitely not against 'crooked', as many friends have raised my appreciation for that too, but this just doesn't ring true, whatever the original source.... Maybe we need a new discussion on 'favourite crooked tunes'?
Good luck, my heart is with you. 'Chording' is more usually abusive, in that too often the understanding of the modal chaaracter of the tune is neglected for something more comfortably 'normal', sacraficing some of the character of the melodies and the tradition... However, these 4 tunes (2 half parts) fit an easier scheme...
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Danse Antique
Crooked tunes ~ understanding, respect, favourites & the contrary
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by ceolachan
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17202
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by ceolachan