It seems when I tune my fiddle down to FCGD tuning I find my intonation and overall playing is much improved and the sound of the fiddle has a beautiful ringing quality. Does anyone know if this can be achieved with stardard tuning GDAE, perhaps my bridge is too high or I need to change strings. I am currently using Blue Infelds medium tension. Sorry if this topic has been asked before or sounds naive.
I'm not sure how tuning down would affect your intonation, since you would have to put your finger positions don't change (assuming you're now playing everything a whole tone/step down). What you will find however, is that good intonation will make the fiddle sound better. When you play notes perfectly in tune the open strings vibrate sympathetically, making the instrument more resonant. This may explain part of you observations.
Ben, not all fiddles were made to resonate at A = 440. In fact, there was no standard pitch before the mid 1800s, and many fiddles were designed and built to play at much lower frequencies (as low as A = 409).
What we call standard pitch today is certainly not what the early Strads, Guarneris, etc., were designed for--they were "tuned" to a much lower frequency for A. Given that fiddle design hasn't changed much (and new fiddles are consistently built to copy those old designs), it's not surprising that many fiddles sound better when tuned a half or even whole step lower. It's such a common phenomenon that you have to be alert for it when shopping for a new fiddle. I've lost count of how many times I've been initially wowed by a fiddle's response and fullness of tone only to find that it was tuned a half or whole step low, and goes dull and lifeless when tuned up to A = 440, never to recover the resonance it had at a lower tension.
My main fiddle sounds great at A = 440, but it sounds even better taken down a notch. A Bb session can be a lot of fun....
wow, I suck at writing. It should be "since your finger positions don't change" or "since you would have to put your fingers in the exact same places", not both at the same time.
Er, Will ... I thought you had perfect pitch? I can tell what a fiddle's tuned to, so it's not an issue for me.
Meanwhile, yes, I know about the old lower pitches, but those old instruments have been modified since, and have soundposts and bass bars that bring the instruments up to 'modern' tuning.
What's a Bb session? Is that down two whole steps? C# sessions seem to be reasonably common ... (down half a step)
Armand and I are starting a flat session this spring, just for the sake of boycotting A440. Eb for the whistlers, C# for the fiddlers and concertinists, C for the pipers and flautists, Bb for the pipers. Simply put, a fiddle sounds better in practically EVERY tuning besides concert D.
I only ever tune up for lessons and sessions...elsewise, it's C#, or whatever pitch I need to learn an old recording. Since the solo tradition was so big in the older days of Irish music, a lot of people had pretty selective senses of tuning, and didn't feel bad about tuning to A=412.73 or whatever they pulled out of the case. Sounds better!
Ben...huh? Yeah, I can tell when a fiddle is tuned low (some shops seem to do this on purpose). All I was saying is that many, many fiddles don't sound as good when pulled up to A 440.
And no, many of the old ones have not been "modified" to meet the new standard. That would involve re-tuning the top (and also replacing the bass bar). I don't know what class of fiddle you play, but for many of us here, retuning the top would cost more than the fiddle did in the first place.
Today's violin design dates from the latter 1600s, when the notion of a standard pitch did not exist. In the vast majority of cases (e.g., church organs across Europe), the A above middle C was substantially lower in frequency than it is today. The violin a we know it was designed to resonate at lower than A 440 frequencies.
And Jason's point about making sure your strings are in tune to each other strikes me as a red herring. If Bob's fiddle sounds better a whole step below A 440, we can assume he can tune it properly at that tension. So why would that be an issue at A 440? Not likely.
As DTM notes, anyone who's played many fiddles knows that nearly all of them are more resonant at lower tension. It's the basic design, not the string brand, personal tuning foibles, or a few rare "unmodified" fiddles.
Yep, a Bb session is two whole steps down to play with pipes. The predominance of tunes played as if in D end up in Bb.
Will, I wasn't talking about tuning the string to one another...that's a given. I just don't understand why tuning down would help anyone to play in tune. Presumably, if your fingers are accurate or inaccurate in standard tuning, bringing the tuning down should not change this. I have done some significant tuning down for Indian classical violin lessons (like CGCG or DADA, etc.), but I haven't noticed intonation changes. Perhaps the relative slackness of the string may have an effect?
On the other hand, if you play notes in tune with your open strings, those strings vibrate sympathetically. For example, if I play a D anywhere on my instrument and that D is in tune, my open D will ring, producing a fuller, more resonant sound. While tuning down certainly changes the quality of the sound, because Bob also mentioned improved intonation, I wondered if possibly tuning down might only be part of the picture.
On my fiddle, sympathetic vibrations are strongest on the G string, then the D, then A (You can test this by playing a 3rd finger note, and then lightly tapping the open sympathetic string with another finger. You'll hear a 'click' as the vibration is interrupted). Seems to me the sympathetic vibes might be part of what gives a lower tuned fiddle more timbre & overtones.
Pay a visit to your local luthier and ask for his advice. Moving the soundpost and/or bridge can significantly change the way a violin responds to the vibrations generated by the strings.
Martin Hayes' latest recording has half or more of the tracks in FCGD and the first thing I noticed was how warm the fiddle sounded - nicer than his other recordings, I think. Of course, it could be a different fiddle, different mic, or whatever.
Sorry, Will. It's possible I've misinterpreted you.
Still, to take your point that the modern design of fiddle dates from the 1600s. True. But, despite the fact, as you have stated, that A440 was only formalised in the 20c, it was in fact more or less the norm from the 18c onwards, round about the time that older instruments - from the 1600s onwards, and including all the old Strads, were modified by the use of longer bass bars and different soundposts, and were, in fact, brought into line with the more modern pitch standards. Although, of course, I do accept that those standards were not rigidly ahdered to until later. Still, A440 was about where they were in the 18c.
As far as my intonation comment it seems in my case that I find the lower tuning a little more forgiving and easier to slide into the right note if the fingers are off a little. This all started when I tuned down to play some Cajun music that was in the key of C.
Listen to recordings of a work by a baroque composer, Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" for instance, played by a specialist baroque orchestra at A415 on replica instruments (Academy of Ancient Music is one, and there are many others), and compare it with a performance by a modern symphony orchestra on modern instruments.
It's great to play a fiddle at A415 (and with gut strings if possible), but if you want to do this a lot then you've got to have a fiddle that is permanently set to the baroque tuning. It's no good having to retune an instrument up and down all the time; they don't like it.
sorry to inject a banjo player's perspective here, but it seems that the intonation •would* change slightly when tuned down, because the string tension is different, and the amount that the note would bend when you bend the string down to touch the fingerboard would be different at a different tension. Not playing fiddle, myself, I don't know if this difference in intonation would be noticeable or not. But it seems as though Bob A's original question might be legitimate, is his bridge too high?
I know from a banjo perspective that different height bridges live in slightly different places on the head to compensate for the intonation. Whereas, on a fiddle, you might need to adjust your intonation slightly with your left hand... Just a thought...
I would never call wikipedia infallible. I have a tuning fork in my hand that says "A=440, Official Pitch American Federation of Musicians, Adopted by U.S. Government 1920."
I'm glad to see that 'Bob himself' mentioned the new Martin Hayes CD. He gets a real nice sound from the whole not drop. Some
fiddles will come out sounding better for this--(considering all the variants that go into producing a good sound). However, remember 'Lazyhounds' CAUTIONARY NOTE---fiddles do not like being torqued up & down like a yo-yo. Either keep it there or dedicate another fiddle suited to this purpose.
FCGD Tuning ?
FCGD Tuning ?
It seems when I tune my fiddle down to FCGD tuning I find my intonation and overall playing is much improved and the sound of the fiddle has a beautiful ringing quality. Does anyone know if this can be achieved with stardard tuning GDAE, perhaps my bridge is too high or I need to change strings. I am currently using Blue Infelds medium tension. Sorry if this topic has been asked before or sounds naive.
Thanks
Bob A
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Bob A
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
If it's at all a decent fiddle, it *should* sound better, and 'ring' better, in standard tuning, because fiddles are built to resonate around D and A.
I don't know those strings, but I keep veering (or being veered) back to Dominants.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
I'm not sure how tuning down would affect your intonation, since you would have to put your finger positions don't change (assuming you're now playing everything a whole tone/step down). What you will find however, is that good intonation will make the fiddle sound better. When you play notes perfectly in tune the open strings vibrate sympathetically, making the instrument more resonant. This may explain part of you observations.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by jasonb
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Ben, not all fiddles were made to resonate at A = 440. In fact, there was no standard pitch before the mid 1800s, and many fiddles were designed and built to play at much lower frequencies (as low as A = 409).
What we call standard pitch today is certainly not what the early Strads, Guarneris, etc., were designed for--they were "tuned" to a much lower frequency for A. Given that fiddle design hasn't changed much (and new fiddles are consistently built to copy those old designs), it's not surprising that many fiddles sound better when tuned a half or even whole step lower. It's such a common phenomenon that you have to be alert for it when shopping for a new fiddle. I've lost count of how many times I've been initially wowed by a fiddle's response and fullness of tone only to find that it was tuned a half or whole step low, and goes dull and lifeless when tuned up to A = 440, never to recover the resonance it had at a lower tension.
My main fiddle sounds great at A = 440, but it sounds even better taken down a notch. A Bb session can be a lot of fun....
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
wow, I suck at writing. It should be "since your finger positions don't change" or "since you would have to put your fingers in the exact same places", not both at the same time.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by jasonb
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Er, Will ... I thought you had perfect pitch? I can tell what a fiddle's tuned to, so it's not an issue for me.
Meanwhile, yes, I know about the old lower pitches, but those old instruments have been modified since, and have soundposts and bass bars that bring the instruments up to 'modern' tuning.
What's a Bb session? Is that down two whole steps? C# sessions seem to be reasonably common ... (down half a step)
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Armand and I are starting a flat session this spring, just for the sake of boycotting A440. Eb for the whistlers, C# for the fiddlers and concertinists, C for the pipers and flautists, Bb for the pipers. Simply put, a fiddle sounds better in practically EVERY tuning besides concert D.
I only ever tune up for lessons and sessions...elsewise, it's C#, or whatever pitch I need to learn an old recording. Since the solo tradition was so big in the older days of Irish music, a lot of people had pretty selective senses of tuning, and didn't feel bad about tuning to A=412.73 or whatever they pulled out of the case. Sounds better!
--DtM
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Ben...huh? Yeah, I can tell when a fiddle is tuned low (some shops seem to do this on purpose). All I was saying is that many, many fiddles don't sound as good when pulled up to A 440.
And no, many of the old ones have not been "modified" to meet the new standard. That would involve re-tuning the top (and also replacing the bass bar). I don't know what class of fiddle you play, but for many of us here, retuning the top would cost more than the fiddle did in the first place.
Today's violin design dates from the latter 1600s, when the notion of a standard pitch did not exist. In the vast majority of cases (e.g., church organs across Europe), the A above middle C was substantially lower in frequency than it is today. The violin a we know it was designed to resonate at lower than A 440 frequencies.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
And Jason's point about making sure your strings are in tune to each other strikes me as a red herring. If Bob's fiddle sounds better a whole step below A 440, we can assume he can tune it properly at that tension. So why would that be an issue at A 440? Not likely.
As DTM notes, anyone who's played many fiddles knows that nearly all of them are more resonant at lower tension. It's the basic design, not the string brand, personal tuning foibles, or a few rare "unmodified" fiddles.
Yep, a Bb session is two whole steps down to play with pipes. The predominance of tunes played as if in D end up in Bb.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Will, I wasn't talking about tuning the string to one another...that's a given. I just don't understand why tuning down would help anyone to play in tune. Presumably, if your fingers are accurate or inaccurate in standard tuning, bringing the tuning down should not change this. I have done some significant tuning down for Indian classical violin lessons (like CGCG or DADA, etc.), but I haven't noticed intonation changes. Perhaps the relative slackness of the string may have an effect?
On the other hand, if you play notes in tune with your open strings, those strings vibrate sympathetically. For example, if I play a D anywhere on my instrument and that D is in tune, my open D will ring, producing a fuller, more resonant sound. While tuning down certainly changes the quality of the sound, because Bob also mentioned improved intonation, I wondered if possibly tuning down might only be part of the picture.
I am very open to being proven wrong.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by jasonb
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
On my fiddle, sympathetic vibrations are strongest on the G string, then the D, then A (You can test this by playing a 3rd finger note, and then lightly tapping the open sympathetic string with another finger. You'll hear a 'click' as the vibration is interrupted). Seems to me the sympathetic vibes might be part of what gives a lower tuned fiddle more timbre & overtones.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by silver bow
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Pay a visit to your local luthier and ask for his advice. Moving the soundpost and/or bridge can significantly change the way a violin responds to the vibrations generated by the strings.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by québécois
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
440 has only been a standard pitch since the late 1920s, adopted by my brethren, the piano tuning community. Happy Easter, everyone.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
The infallible wikipedia says 1936, formalized in 1955: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A440
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Will CPT
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Martin Hayes' latest recording has half or more of the tracks in FCGD and the first thing I noticed was how warm the fiddle sounded - nicer than his other recordings, I think. Of course, it could be a different fiddle, different mic, or whatever.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Sorry, Will. It's possible I've misinterpreted you.
Still, to take your point that the modern design of fiddle dates from the 1600s. True. But, despite the fact, as you have stated, that A440 was only formalised in the 20c, it was in fact more or less the norm from the 18c onwards, round about the time that older instruments - from the 1600s onwards, and including all the old Strads, were modified by the use of longer bass bars and different soundposts, and were, in fact, brought into line with the more modern pitch standards. Although, of course, I do accept that those standards were not rigidly ahdered to until later. Still, A440 was about where they were in the 18c.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Thanks everyone for your responses.
As far as my intonation comment it seems in my case that I find the lower tuning a little more forgiving and easier to slide into the right note if the fingers are off a little. This all started when I tuned down to play some Cajun music that was in the key of C.
Bob A
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by Bob A
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Listen to recordings of a work by a baroque composer, Vivaldi's "Four Seasons" for instance, played by a specialist baroque orchestra at A415 on replica instruments (Academy of Ancient Music is one, and there are many others), and compare it with a performance by a modern symphony orchestra on modern instruments.
It's great to play a fiddle at A415 (and with gut strings if possible), but if you want to do this a lot then you've got to have a fiddle that is permanently set to the baroque tuning. It's no good having to retune an instrument up and down all the time; they don't like it.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by lazyhound
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
sorry to inject a banjo player's perspective here, but it seems that the intonation •would* change slightly when tuned down, because the string tension is different, and the amount that the note would bend when you bend the string down to touch the fingerboard would be different at a different tension. Not playing fiddle, myself, I don't know if this difference in intonation would be noticeable or not. But it seems as though Bob A's original question might be legitimate, is his bridge too high?
I know from a banjo perspective that different height bridges live in slightly different places on the head to compensate for the intonation. Whereas, on a fiddle, you might need to adjust your intonation slightly with your left hand... Just a thought...
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by Reverend
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Yeah. Sure. Retune.
Anyone got a lottery ticket for the Concertina players so we can order new instruments?
Note: Must be winning ticket, must be for large amount of money.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by Dave Weinstein
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Ask Micheal o'Raghallaigh if you can borrow his : P
Wasn't at least one of his albums in C#?
--DtM
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
Wouldn't help me. I play a custom anglo, I'd need to have new instruments commissioned in different tunings.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by Dave Weinstein
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
I am an advanced beginner and do re call someone telling me that the bridge on my fiddle was high.
Maybe I will address the issue thanks Reverend.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by Bob A
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
I would never call wikipedia infallible. I have a tuning fork in my hand that says "A=440, Official Pitch American Federation of Musicians, Adopted by U.S. Government 1920."
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: FCGD Tuning ?
I'm glad to see that 'Bob himself' mentioned the new Martin Hayes CD. He gets a real nice sound from the whole not drop. Some
fiddles will come out sounding better for this--(considering all the variants that go into producing a good sound). However, remember 'Lazyhounds' CAUTIONARY NOTE---fiddles do not like being torqued up & down like a yo-yo. Either keep it there or dedicate another fiddle suited to this purpose.
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by hauke