I don't think you're being fair on the GAA musical soul. I know they've reinvested millions in grants for ground development around the country. Mind you I'm not a member of the GAA so I don't know about it's inner workings.
I am however a member of Comhaltas and for what it's worth I find it a great organisation at local level but am not confident that things are being run properly at the top. We have a president for life with far too much power and the administration centrally is too often chaotic.
Despite these reservations, membership offers me and my friends locally an organisation which makes it easier to organise music classes and sessions (through cheaper insurance for example). Basically our local branch does not get involved in the politics more than we have to. We confine ourselves to attending county board meetings and avoid anything higher like the plague.
So the question I have is what is the alternative to Comhaltas that you are proposing? Without an alternative it is better to be involved, however flawed the organisation.
If you know that the centre has too much power and muscle, but you avoid it, isn't that burying your head in the sand instead of confronting them on the issue, or are they too powerful to be even open to debate; it seems to me it is not a very transparent the higher up you go, it also seems that a the less transparent the more is hidden, the less they are open to criticism and feedback.
Sure the branches do some good work, but that's like saying although I am a member of a the maffia, I am not a member of the Corsican branch, and being a member makes sure I get a decent burial.
I know they are power-abusing, power-loving hypocrits, but I also know that change has to come from pressure outside the centre and not from inside...
I am a member of the branch formerly known as Cluain Tarbh. We have had a pretty punishing time recently dealing with the top brass. This has culminated in our (grossly unjust) dissolution. (See http://www.cluaintarbh.net)
Despite our terrible experiences recently I still want to be a member of the organisation. The people on the ground are great and there is wonderful camaraderie among them. I have made great friendships all over the country as a result. So I guess I agree with the general sentiment - great on the ground, rotten at the top!
We haven't heard the CCE side of the Clontarf issue because of their self imposed silence but reading between the lines, perhaps the Clontarf branch had too much 'get up & go' about them and has threatened the powerbase of the higher echelons??
But I would have thought that there's lots of trad. music activity going on all over Ireland and worldwide that has no connection to CCE. There are sessions, concerts, CD recordings, classes, festivals......... all proceeding quite happily along. So maybe the organisation has fulfilled its purpose and lost some it's relevance???
I think that in Ireland and it is all I can talk about, there has been for some years, a number of agencies, organisations that are of similar background and mindset. Amonst these would be the so called Roman Catholic church and all it's off- shoots and agencies such as Opus Dei, Legion of Mary etc ; GAA, Comhaltas, and if you look behind the facades of these agencies and bodies you will see the same people at commitee level or at least the same type of person in positions of power. Unless you lived here, it is hard to describe the personality type and equally difficult not to generalise but you can almost smell them !
But the same guidelines apply to all of these set ups. The grassroots are good people, they work hard on a voluntary basis for what they believe. And all these organisations do very good work - at a grassroot level. The idea or concept or mission statement behind the organisation is usually very good. But there is a certain type of person attracted to these organisations or which the organisation attracts and they are sure to abuse power as soon as they get it or a whiff of it. And down through the years, sooner or later they make themselves known. And when they do so, you can be sure that the original idea or mission statement is well gone. And the patterns are usually the same as well. Like pyramid selling , the ones at the top get all the money and perks whilst the those holding up the pyramid getting damned with faint praise.
So yes as rogaire says, you will meet lovely people, you will make great friendships but only if you stay where you belong, in your box. And most are happy about that. But most happy are those at the top who know that praise and a cup of tea and a sticky bun will keep the peasants happy whilst they make shapes that would have you believe that they are doing a great job ,which the man on the street pays for.
One is reminded of Animal Farm- all are equal but some are more equal than others and gawd help you if you get out of line.
Look at the money generated in Croke Park mostly by the players. And yet they are fighting tooth and nail for some decent recompense for days lost out of work etc. And yes, the GAA do let a small amount relatively speaking trickle back to grass roots but the majority of kids and teenagers if they are lucky enough to have a changing room, certainly don't have a shower. Up to very recently you couldn't get a decent shower in Croke Park. And yet the boys and girls were upstairs in luxury. Same with comhaltas, heads travel the world( for what- everything works fine without Larry) whilst their musicians on tour sleep in people's houses - the same grassroots people and musicians. Ah but don't they love it ! But what exactly do the staff do in these places?? Are the jobs free to all to apply for? Maybe, but you can be sure it is more times than not a case of jobs for the boys.
And so on and on. Clontarf are just another in a long line of victims of these power whores.And as I said before, who appointed Larry a senator? Another corrupt organisation. Show me your company and I'll tell you what you are.
I first attended a meeting of Comhaltas in 1951 or 52. It was really my first introduction to Irish Traditional music. I was a Townie and we were more into modern music at the time, so it was great to meet all these country people who played music on weird instruments like the concert flute. Then came the Fleadh and for the first time I was listening to great players from all over the country. Over the years I found enough ITM in the London pubs to fulfill my needs, although I did drop into various Ceoltas sessions from time to time. Venues such at The Greyhound - Fulham. The London and Brighton - Peckham. The World's End - The Borough come to mind (I'm assuming they were Comhaltas orientated but I could be wrong) Eventually I found it wasn't worth while dragging a box halfway across London just to play for five minutes and to join with a mob of other musicians in the 'Salley Gardens' at the end of the night. Then there was the people who dictated what should or should not be played at the sessions, and the mysterious people who only appeared to welcome visiting VIPs and pose for photographs with them. Last but not least in all my years dipping in and out of the organisation, I have never seen 'Ceoltas' perform at a non catholic church service. Same with the GAA...why do these organisations assume that every member is automatically a Roman Catholic. ?????
You won't find any Irish music in those venues today. Only 20 years ago I used to frequent all of those pubs and I went back 3 years ago. What a change!
The GAA has many faults but it the core of the social fabric of Ireland, being the social beacon in most communities. It provides games and takes kids of the streets, invests millions on the sport, and provides a social centre for the entire parish/town/district.
Even in the North in places like Lavey the club would be packed with people from all persuasions and of different political views, perhaps because there was nowhere else to go.
I agree with a comment made in a programme the other night about Comhaltas in that they tend to present ITM in a classical fashion, strait laced, no frills, and certainly no smiles. However they have provided a similar function to the GAA in many areas by providing an outlet to musicians.
I have read a few more posts. In 1971 I played in a schools final in Croke Park, the showers were lovely.
Protestants, quite recently, have been Presidents of the GAA (Jack Boothman), their main trophy the Sam Maguire cup is named after a protestant, and many protestants play Gaelic Games.
Now I agree the association has many faults, and are still identified with the church. I hate it when my fellow club members say "It was in the church bulletin" when I claim I did not know about certain fixtures. But it still, despite the faults, does a powerful amount of good, and all officials are elected, so can easily be replaced.
Comhaltas is not my cup of tea, too strait laced, but they still do good work in certain areas.
And it is the grass roots of the GAA who are opposed to grants for players, not the hierarchy. They fear that once money is introduced the sport will slowly kill itself, like soccer and boxing to name a few.
Comhaltas contributes as far as I know to the musical scene in the Irish Centre in Newcastle.
But in this age of TGVs and transglobal whizzing generally, the last train back from Newcastle to Durham is at quarter to eleven, which rather puts the damper on going up there for an evening. Nothing for it but to stay in Durham, and create a bizarre and isolated regional style for furure generations to analyse and wonder at.
I do not have a car and the lawn is too small to graze a moke whereon to travel to the Toon and ride in triumph through the portals of the Irish Centre.
On weekend nights special drunks' buses (I kid you not) ferry people from Durham into Newcastle into the small hours, and presumably do return journeys, but I have so far resisted the temptation to entrust myself - let alone my box - to these.
"1) there are many people on session.org who are members of Comhaltas but are (a) too embarrased to speak up (b) afraid" -most members would prefer to wait for all the facts to emerge before making any comments.
"2) most people on this site are quite indifferent - Comhaltas just has no perceived relevance to their musical lives." - Maybe it's something to do with the fact that no other musical organisation has been discussed so frequently over the past number of years that there's little left to be said! In fact if you are to apply this criteria, then Comhaltas has great relevance to the musical lives of people. If you haven't seen them some previous posts are shown below:-
Good to read your post, Bannerman and I've followed those links. I quite happily accept that Comhaltas has done a huge amount over the years - was in my sick bed over the w/e with a bad dose and watched the RTE DVD Come West Along the Road which has lots of great stuff. I'd dare say many of the performers had links with CCE and might not have been there in the first place but for CCE, or maybe they would.
But as a comment on this thread, I'd still think my reading of it is more or less along the right lines. I don't think Comhaltas is particularly relevant to most people here. In a fast changing world, perhaps it's usefulness is gone, bypassed. But then perhaps you could argue it's needed more and more for that same reason.
I think there is a bit of a dislocation between a formal organisation which is clearly run on conservative lines and a folk music which thrives on being organic and infective. I think Comhaltas has as one it's aims 'the preservation' of trad music. Preservation implies fosillisation - but a folk music surely has a different drive. After all look at all the different dance forms that influence ITM, the result of popular forms that swept across Europe and washed up here.
I know if you take that to it's logical conclusion, you'd have rap and rock and all sorts of influences in ITM. I don't think many people want to go down that road.
Conservation of the music is whats needed not preservation but that little difference illustrates a lot.
To answer the "Battle of Clontarf" question (great sobriquet!), I put a bit of a summary of what's going on from an "insider's perspective" at the earlier thread:
Southpaw, if and when the rest of the Yellowboarders decide to volunteer their "day jobs", then I will do likewise. I think that the consensus on this site is that the majority of members prefer to retain their anonyminity and that this is to be preferred. It does allow the member the luxury of expressing their own personal views without having to represent any particular party line. In any case my gripe is with people who fail to show any biographical details in their member profile which allows for much more positive interaction with one another.
As for Clontarf, I am not a member of the Comhaltas Ardchomhairle, nor a member of the Clontarf Branch or the Dublin County Board so, as I've already said in a previous post, I have nothing to contribute on the matter. 'B' has contributed a fair amount of background on the issue and states that a Comhaltas statement will shortly be issued so I think we've all got to be a bit patient until the full facts emerge.
Used to be too many people at the top (with big wage packets) and could neither sing or play! I'm afraid there still are a lot like that still at the top! I remember competing back in the early 1980,s in the All Ireland senior grades and was appalled to find my name was not in the program. When I enquired at the Fleadh office I was informed my name was changed (slightly) to sound more Irish.
Look at 1980 All Ireland Senior singing, Seamus Duffy was the adjudicator. (I would have given him another name!) Informed two singers representing Ulster and Kevin Mitchell (the previous years champion) representing Glasgow (as his new home address) that the Ulster style of singing should be 'eradicated' or kept to the back room of pubs or sitting rooms. That was before the competition even started and they try to tell you that the competitions are fair and unbiased!
That's a good one!
e o'b
Comhaltas
Comhaltas
On the recent tarnished events of comhaltas I was wondering what your thoughts are on this organisation.
Short and sweet or not so sweet comments in this case please.
My opinion which I have stressed before in discussions is that Comhaltas reminds me somewhat of the GAA.
Money is the prime focus of this organisation and not the promotion and well being of musicians and music.
Let the debate begin :P
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by musical soul
Re: Comhaltas
I don't think you're being fair on the GAA musical soul. I know they've reinvested millions in grants for ground development around the country. Mind you I'm not a member of the GAA so I don't know about it's inner workings.
I am however a member of Comhaltas and for what it's worth I find it a great organisation at local level but am not confident that things are being run properly at the top. We have a president for life with far too much power and the administration centrally is too often chaotic.
Despite these reservations, membership offers me and my friends locally an organisation which makes it easier to organise music classes and sessions (through cheaper insurance for example). Basically our local branch does not get involved in the politics more than we have to. We confine ourselves to attending county board meetings and avoid anything higher like the plague.
So the question I have is what is the alternative to Comhaltas that you are proposing? Without an alternative it is better to be involved, however flawed the organisation.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by fionan
Re: Comhaltas
If you know that the centre has too much power and muscle, but you avoid it, isn't that burying your head in the sand instead of confronting them on the issue, or are they too powerful to be even open to debate; it seems to me it is not a very transparent the higher up you go, it also seems that a the less transparent the more is hidden, the less they are open to criticism and feedback.
Sure the branches do some good work, but that's like saying although I am a member of a the maffia, I am not a member of the Corsican branch, and being a member makes sure I get a decent burial.
I know they are power-abusing, power-loving hypocrits, but I also know that change has to come from pressure outside the centre and not from inside...
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Shylock
Re: Comhaltas
I am a member of the branch formerly known as Cluain Tarbh. We have had a pretty punishing time recently dealing with the top brass. This has culminated in our (grossly unjust) dissolution. (See http://www.cluaintarbh.net)
Despite our terrible experiences recently I still want to be a member of the organisation. The people on the ground are great and there is wonderful camaraderie among them. I have made great friendships all over the country as a result. So I guess I agree with the general sentiment - great on the ground, rotten at the top!
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by An Rogaire Dubh
Re: Comhaltas
We haven't heard the CCE side of the Clontarf issue because of their self imposed silence but reading between the lines, perhaps the Clontarf branch had too much 'get up & go' about them and has threatened the powerbase of the higher echelons??
But I would have thought that there's lots of trad. music activity going on all over Ireland and worldwide that has no connection to CCE. There are sessions, concerts, CD recordings, classes, festivals......... all proceeding quite happily along. So maybe the organisation has fulfilled its purpose and lost some it's relevance???
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Comhaltas
I think that in Ireland and it is all I can talk about, there has been for some years, a number of agencies, organisations that are of similar background and mindset. Amonst these would be the so called Roman Catholic church and all it's off- shoots and agencies such as Opus Dei, Legion of Mary etc ; GAA, Comhaltas, and if you look behind the facades of these agencies and bodies you will see the same people at commitee level or at least the same type of person in positions of power. Unless you lived here, it is hard to describe the personality type and equally difficult not to generalise but you can almost smell them !
But the same guidelines apply to all of these set ups. The grassroots are good people, they work hard on a voluntary basis for what they believe. And all these organisations do very good work - at a grassroot level. The idea or concept or mission statement behind the organisation is usually very good. But there is a certain type of person attracted to these organisations or which the organisation attracts and they are sure to abuse power as soon as they get it or a whiff of it. And down through the years, sooner or later they make themselves known. And when they do so, you can be sure that the original idea or mission statement is well gone. And the patterns are usually the same as well. Like pyramid selling , the ones at the top get all the money and perks whilst the those holding up the pyramid getting damned with faint praise.
So yes as rogaire says, you will meet lovely people, you will make great friendships but only if you stay where you belong, in your box. And most are happy about that. But most happy are those at the top who know that praise and a cup of tea and a sticky bun will keep the peasants happy whilst they make shapes that would have you believe that they are doing a great job ,which the man on the street pays for.
One is reminded of Animal Farm- all are equal but some are more equal than others and gawd help you if you get out of line.
Look at the money generated in Croke Park mostly by the players. And yet they are fighting tooth and nail for some decent recompense for days lost out of work etc. And yes, the GAA do let a small amount relatively speaking trickle back to grass roots but the majority of kids and teenagers if they are lucky enough to have a changing room, certainly don't have a shower. Up to very recently you couldn't get a decent shower in Croke Park. And yet the boys and girls were upstairs in luxury. Same with comhaltas, heads travel the world( for what- everything works fine without Larry) whilst their musicians on tour sleep in people's houses - the same grassroots people and musicians. Ah but don't they love it ! But what exactly do the staff do in these places?? Are the jobs free to all to apply for? Maybe, but you can be sure it is more times than not a case of jobs for the boys.
And so on and on. Clontarf are just another in a long line of victims of these power whores.And as I said before, who appointed Larry a senator? Another corrupt organisation. Show me your company and I'll tell you what you are.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: Comhaltas
I first attended a meeting of Comhaltas in 1951 or 52. It was really my first introduction to Irish Traditional music. I was a Townie and we were more into modern music at the time, so it was great to meet all these country people who played music on weird instruments like the concert flute. Then came the Fleadh and for the first time I was listening to great players from all over the country. Over the years I found enough ITM in the London pubs to fulfill my needs, although I did drop into various Ceoltas sessions from time to time. Venues such at The Greyhound - Fulham. The London and Brighton - Peckham. The World's End - The Borough come to mind (I'm assuming they were Comhaltas orientated but I could be wrong) Eventually I found it wasn't worth while dragging a box halfway across London just to play for five minutes and to join with a mob of other musicians in the 'Salley Gardens' at the end of the night. Then there was the people who dictated what should or should not be played at the sessions, and the mysterious people who only appeared to welcome visiting VIPs and pose for photographs with them. Last but not least in all my years dipping in and out of the organisation, I have never seen 'Ceoltas' perform at a non catholic church service. Same with the GAA...why do these organisations assume that every member is automatically a Roman Catholic. ?????
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Comhaltas
You won't find any Irish music in those venues today. Only 20 years ago I used to frequent all of those pubs and I went back 3 years ago. What a change!
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Farr
Re: Comhaltas
The GAA has many faults but it the core of the social fabric of Ireland, being the social beacon in most communities. It provides games and takes kids of the streets, invests millions on the sport, and provides a social centre for the entire parish/town/district.
Even in the North in places like Lavey the club would be packed with people from all persuasions and of different political views, perhaps because there was nowhere else to go.
I agree with a comment made in a programme the other night about Comhaltas in that they tend to present ITM in a classical fashion, strait laced, no frills, and certainly no smiles. However they have provided a similar function to the GAA in many areas by providing an outlet to musicians.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Comhaltas
I have read a few more posts. In 1971 I played in a schools final in Croke Park, the showers were lovely.
Protestants, quite recently, have been Presidents of the GAA (Jack Boothman), their main trophy the Sam Maguire cup is named after a protestant, and many protestants play Gaelic Games.
Now I agree the association has many faults, and are still identified with the church. I hate it when my fellow club members say "It was in the church bulletin" when I claim I did not know about certain fixtures. But it still, despite the faults, does a powerful amount of good, and all officials are elected, so can easily be replaced.
Comhaltas is not my cup of tea, too strait laced, but they still do good work in certain areas.
And it is the grass roots of the GAA who are opposed to grants for players, not the hierarchy. They fear that once money is introduced the sport will slowly kill itself, like soccer and boxing to name a few.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Comhaltas
Judging by the number of responses to this thread, I think we can assume one or two things:
1) there are many people on session.org who are members of Comhaltas but are (a) too embarrased to speak up (b) afraid.
2) most people on this site are quite indifferent - Comhaltas just has no perceived relevance to their musical lives.
I'd guess at the latter but either way, perhaps the organisation should be concerned... seems to be a downer in this day and age.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Comhaltas
Comhaltas contributes as far as I know to the musical scene in the Irish Centre in Newcastle.
But in this age of TGVs and transglobal whizzing generally, the last train back from Newcastle to Durham is at quarter to eleven, which rather puts the damper on going up there for an evening. Nothing for it but to stay in Durham, and create a bizarre and isolated regional style for furure generations to analyse and wonder at.
I do not have a car and the lawn is too small to graze a moke whereon to travel to the Toon and ride in triumph through the portals of the Irish Centre.
On weekend nights special drunks' buses (I kid you not) ferry people from Durham into Newcastle into the small hours, and presumably do return journeys, but I have so far resisted the temptation to entrust myself - let alone my box - to these.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by nicholas
Re: Comhaltas
Just to respond to the two points raised above:
"1) there are many people on session.org who are members of Comhaltas but are (a) too embarrased to speak up (b) afraid" -most members would prefer to wait for all the facts to emerge before making any comments.
"2) most people on this site are quite indifferent - Comhaltas just has no perceived relevance to their musical lives." - Maybe it's something to do with the fact that no other musical organisation has been discussed so frequently over the past number of years that there's little left to be said! In fact if you are to apply this criteria, then Comhaltas has great relevance to the musical lives of people. If you haven't seen them some previous posts are shown below:-
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/2641/comments#comment51736 (Jan 2004)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/6697/comments#comment142707 (May 2005)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/8835/comments#comment188446 (Jan 2006)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/9015/comments#comment191949 (Jan 2006)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/15086/comments#comment311308 (Sept 2007)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16884/comments#comment350874 (29 Feb 2008)
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16383/comments#comment339788 (Jan 2008)
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Comhaltas
Good to read your post, Bannerman and I've followed those links. I quite happily accept that Comhaltas has done a huge amount over the years - was in my sick bed over the w/e with a bad dose and watched the RTE DVD Come West Along the Road which has lots of great stuff. I'd dare say many of the performers had links with CCE and might not have been there in the first place but for CCE, or maybe they would.
But as a comment on this thread, I'd still think my reading of it is more or less along the right lines. I don't think Comhaltas is particularly relevant to most people here. In a fast changing world, perhaps it's usefulness is gone, bypassed. But then perhaps you could argue it's needed more and more for that same reason.
I think there is a bit of a dislocation between a formal organisation which is clearly run on conservative lines and a folk music which thrives on being organic and infective. I think Comhaltas has as one it's aims 'the preservation' of trad music. Preservation implies fosillisation - but a folk music surely has a different drive. After all look at all the different dance forms that influence ITM, the result of popular forms that swept across Europe and washed up here.
I know if you take that to it's logical conclusion, you'd have rap and rock and all sorts of influences in ITM. I don't think many people want to go down that road.
Conservation of the music is whats needed not preservation but that little difference illustrates a lot.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: Comhaltas
Bannerman, maybe you should put your hands up and let all know you are a full time paid employee of Comhaltas.
As an insider maybe you could give some insight into the Battle of Clontarf 2008
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by southpaw
Re: Comhaltas
To answer the "Battle of Clontarf" question (great sobriquet!), I put a bit of a summary of what's going on from an "insider's perspective" at the earlier thread:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/17108
It's near the end, after a bit of back-and-forth. Enjoy ...
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by b
Re: Comhaltas
Southpaw, if and when the rest of the Yellowboarders decide to volunteer their "day jobs", then I will do likewise. I think that the consensus on this site is that the majority of members prefer to retain their anonyminity and that this is to be preferred. It does allow the member the luxury of expressing their own personal views without having to represent any particular party line. In any case my gripe is with people who fail to show any biographical details in their member profile which allows for much more positive interaction with one another.
As for Clontarf, I am not a member of the Comhaltas Ardchomhairle, nor a member of the Clontarf Branch or the Dublin County Board so, as I've already said in a previous post, I have nothing to contribute on the matter. 'B' has contributed a fair amount of background on the issue and states that a Comhaltas statement will shortly be issued so I think we've all got to be a bit patient until the full facts emerge.
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by Bannerman
Re: Comhaltas
Used to be too many people at the top (with big wage packets) and could neither sing or play! I'm afraid there still are a lot like that still at the top! I remember competing back in the early 1980,s in the All Ireland senior grades and was appalled to find my name was not in the program. When I enquired at the Fleadh office I was informed my name was changed (slightly) to sound more Irish.
Look at 1980 All Ireland Senior singing, Seamus Duffy was the adjudicator. (I would have given him another name!) Informed two singers representing Ulster and Kevin Mitchell (the previous years champion) representing Glasgow (as his new home address) that the Ulster style of singing should be 'eradicated' or kept to the back room of pubs or sitting rooms. That was before the competition even started and they try to tell you that the competitions are fair and unbiased!
That's a good one!
e o'b
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by boycejackie