Some years back I attended a concert to raise money for the branch at the National Concert Hall. Altan were top of the bill (Mark Kelly is, I believe, a long-standing member of the branch).
The first half of the concert featured young musicians and dancers from the Clontarf branch and the standard of both categories was uniformally high - in fact, much better than you'd get at one of Larry Murphy's cabaret evenings in Cashel.
This is CCÉ money-grubbing at its very worst. Is there anything that those of us from outside the area can do to support Clontarf in its campaign?
This is indeed a very serious matter, but sometimes a little laughter doesn't go amiss. Those of you interested in fiction will find a familiar character about half-way through this:
This was covered in some detail again today on public radio : RTE1, Liveline 1345-1500. Several committee members of the Clontarf branch phoned in and Joe Duffy was able to deliver the news that they were officially dissolved - apparently CCE HQ sent the letter to RTE but not to the Clontarf branch!!
It also emerged that CCE HQ have set up a new Clontarf branch with a self appointed puppet committee. This was done at a closed and private meeting over last weekend!! The lack of democracy and procedure is just breathakingly arrogant.
It was reported that there was a meeting of the Clontarf branch (the old legitimate one!) last night and over 100 people turned up. It is one of the largest CCE groups. The atmosphere at this was said to be one of disgust and they have vowed to keep the old branch going.
Several musicians rang in their support and there was an appeal for ALL traditional musicians and particularly those involved in other CCE branches to campaign for the reinstatment of the Clontarf branch and for an overall of CCE HQ.
The point being that if CCE HQ can just dissolve one of the largest and most successful branches because they don't like what they've said or done - then what hope for other branches.
Guys -- a little calmness, please. This is a complicated and difficult situation, and the play-by-play posted on Clontarf's website is not an accurate portrayal of the chain of events. Before flying off the handle, it might make sense to ask yourselves whether this set of facts as presented make any sense ....
And all this from people who just like playing a few tunes together. Heard the whole sad story on said radio show earlier in the week and again today. A case of.... Power corrupts but absolute power etc etc.......This could end up on the 'Fights after a Session' thread yet.
B, I've read this in several places now. If this is not what is actually happening, what is? I am very open to hearing other sides of this. It sounds pretty bad. Please enlighten us with any information you may have that we do not.
OK, I can't really comment on what's happened here, not because I've been sworn to secrecy or anything but because it would be inappropriate to do so while this is being worked out. Which is why we haven't been making public statements, as far as I know - I believe the feeling is that it would be irresponsible. I'm not saying it's not a serious thing: it is. Or that there isn't a lot of money involved: there is. But the VAT refund is a red herring, and there's no power-grab going on.
As has been noted several times, the coverage in the press on this issue has been one-sided. The callers to Duffy and so forth were all on one side, with a particular set of interests. And even Duffy sounded rather incredulous that this could be the whole story. It just doesn't make any sense.
The Clontarf branch is one of the most vibrant and successful branches of Comhaltas. They have an excellent teaching programme, they have developed a world-class tour group, and they initiated the Clasac theatre project in part as a way to create a positive home for the traditional arts in Dublin. They've spent a dozen years trying to make it happen.
And when the dust settles, I hope that's exactly what we'll have: a strong and vibrant branch, a new theatre and a successful venue both for the Clontarf branch and for music teaching in north Dublin. That's what we're all hoping and working for, in Head Office, in the ardchomhairle and in Clontarf.
I'm just saying: the group of people who created the problem are yelling, loudly. The group that's trying to fix the problem hasn't spoken yet.
(With this post, as with most things, I'm not speaking for Comhaltas policy -- I'm on vacation in the Aran Islands at the moment and seeing things second-hand. But this dust-up has been heading toward us for more than just a few months, and I'm aware of the issues involved.)
I notice b that your post is about " we" So is that "we" as in Comhaltas Headquarters? How is it that is inappropiate to comment whilst "it is being worked out" when from what I see and hear , nothing is being worked out to include those in Clontarf branch !! If you know enough to be telling us to calm down, then perhaps you might answer this - Was there or not a directive from Headquarters to forward the monies in question?
My point was merely that the full story isn't out there in the media, or elsewhere in the public domain. When I say "we haven't been making public statements" I mean we as in Comhaltas, as in the organisation that I'm a paid-up member of. I'm not on the Ardchomhairle of Comhaltas, I'm not an elected official of the organisation, and I don't speak for Comhaltas.
There's no point asking me direct questions about what's happened at the last few meetings, because I wasn't there. I'm just aware of some issues that have been fermenting for a long time now, and have suddenly exploded. I don't know what "monies in question" you mean, and I have no knowledge of "directives from Headquarters." Note that I wasn't offering to say definitively exactly what's occurred, especially in the last couple of weeks. But I do know that what people are fighting about right now is not a VAT refund, which was an issue that came up only after the real fissure. Even Clontarf's summary makes it clear that the VAT refund can't be the real problem - it came later in the process.
I'm just saying. As someone who knows some of the history of this issue, there are things being worked on, and of course everyone wants the members of the Clontarf branch involved. Clontarf does great stuff. There's just a lot of mis-information that's being tossed around at the moment in a rather breathtaking way.
I'm only suggesting that it makes sense to consider carefully what makes sense, and what's consistent in people's positions.
I'm not sure which meeting you're referring to - the Comhaltas Ardchomhairle meetings recently? The Cluain Tarbh AGM? The more recent meeting to discuss the creation of a new branch? In any case, most organisations (like the GAA, whose governing structures Comhaltas is modelled on) wouldn't generally make all meetings open to the public. The matters discussed would generally impinge on legal issues that probably don't belong in the public domain.
But the procedures and democracy around the governing of Comhaltas are fairly clear. Branches elect representatives to county boards, who elect representatives to provincial councils, who elect representatives to the Ardchomhairle, same as the GAA. There's also an annual congress for representatives at all levels to meet and decide issues, elect officers and so forth. All very standard structures. To say that "head office" makes decisions in a non-democratic way is a bit disingenuous -- it's an elected council of representatives (quite interesting and well-meaning folks, for the most part) who set policy for the organisation as a whole.
I read on mudcat something vague about a disagreement over what constitutes traditional music for performance at the venue, but that doesn't quite seem to justify closing the branch and seizing its new very expensive facility. I also read about O'Murchu allegedly dissolving a branch in London in the 70s for not contributing to a (presumably his?) political fund.
B, everything certainly is not clear, but the situation looks pretty shady on CCE HQ's part.
Well I think, and I say this with over thirty years of experience of watching Comhaltas "in action", that what does make sense is to consider carefully the political record of Comhaltas on matters such as their deal with IMRO. I see on the 12 th March 2007, you posted "yesterday in the office in Comhaltas". So hardly JUST a paid up member then? And even less likely to be unbiased?
Whatever Clontarf may or may not have done to upset the great one(because you can be sure that the ordinary joe bloggs didn't initiate this repossession carry on, this has all the marks of the great one's actions), this building does not belong to Comhaltas as an organisation, it belongs to the members of Clontarf, who were running classes in an old falling down building in Essex Street in Dublin long before Larry and his big cushy office in Monkstown arrived, and have since worked hard as a branch to build itself up. As I said on another discussion, why not call out to Monkstown any night of the week and see the kids and the teachers stuck up in cold store rooms whilst the boys sit in their plush offices.A couple of weeks ago out in headquarters the money making machine was in operation- the musicians were playing for free, the people had paid in at the door, the voluntary staff were running around organising everything and the teachers and kids were frozen to the bone.It's no wonder people want their own building.
You say " when the dust settles, I hope that's exactly what we'll have". Here we go again- the royal we. Can't you just see the greedy arm stretching out !!
Your position B, is very strange. You can't on the one hand complain that the issue is being dealt with unevenly - that only one side is being presented when CCE clearly will not put out spokespeople or give their side of the arguement. Joe Duffy stated very clearly yesterday that he had invited Labras O'Murchu or reps of CCE to give their side of the story but CCE refused.
What we did hear was the ordinary members of the Clontarf branch and what they said reflected very badly on CCE.
Hussar, my position is perfectly consistent: I'm a staffer at head office, also a member of my branch, also a musician. I have no personal interest in the Clasac mess one way or the other, and no authority in this area. While I personally would strongly wish that the Comhaltas leadership would get out there with their position, I simply pointed out that there has been silence thus far. Meaning that only one side has been heard, and the callers to Joe Duffy aren't representative of the whole issue. And silence does not equal skulduggery.
I also suspect that the members of the Clontarf branch have not been presented with accurate information by their own leadership, but again, I haven't been at branch meetings, and it's not something I can state with any authority.
I'm not unbiased, of course -- I'm quite committed to Comhaltas and to what it stands for, and on balance I think that Comhaltas is a worthwhile cause with which to be associated. I've made my own career choices accordingly, choosing to be closer to the work that gets done (and taking a huge pay cut in the process) in hopes of fostering the spirit of volunteerism present in active branches like Clontarf.
B I THINK YOU PROTEST TOO MUCH AND ARE VERY QUICK TO JUMP TO THE DEFENCE OF COMHALTAS.
WHAT THEY HAVE DONE HERE IS WRONG. PLAIN AND SIMPLE AND THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR.
its very dishearting. I feel if it wasn't for comhaltas then alot of musicians would have not been introduced to music however their behaviour in this money grabbing matter is unacceptable.
"I've made my own career choices accordingly, choosing to be closer to the work that gets done (and taking a huge pay cut in the process) in hopes of fostering the spirit of volunteerism present in active branches like Clontarf."
Well fair dues to ye, b and right on.
I suppose the problem can be that 'conservative' organisations like Comhaltas, the GAA, the church! often get caught doing exactly the opposite to their supposed mission. They get caught up in legalities and personalities and end up cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
So, the real question is who gets 'control' and the 'credit' for the creation of Clasac?
What would have happened if the branch would have 'prosecuted' over the illegal handling of VAT? Support or abandonment by CCE HQ (they broke the Law)?
Is there a 'real' branch of Cluain T? If so, which one?
b, by his own admission (no authority, non-presence at meetings) as having spoken less than candidly as to his position notwithstanding the self-righteous attitude about giving up career/income, noble objectives etc. has destroyed his credibility and integrity.
What would the founders of CCE have thought of this mess and the people involved?
In England there is a joke'correspondant' to the national daily newspapers, I therefore sign my self off at this time as
Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells
I can accept there is imbalance as far as what is being freely offered with regards to this issue, but, it is the sign of poor organization when that 'public' organization lacks the intelligence to be open and answerable with regards to their side of this very public issue. I can also understand when such neglect of members and the public interest causes people to assume this is a sign of repression and tyranny. Does CCE think it is always in the right, unquestionably, do they see no need to reply to the growing unrest and request for accountability? Is their side of this issue so indefensable that they are speechless? It is a public non-profit organization. It's not a private family run business, not a dictatorhip, is it? If it wants to be other than public, other than a membership run non-profit organization, if it truly seeks to not be answerable to its members ~ then it should give up its non-profit status and incorporate, go fully commercial, or become a political party, a thiefdom of an unelected self-interested, self-promoting oligarchy... At the moment, keeping shtrum does nothing for the argument that they are democratic and accountable... There is no excuse that can rightly support such consistent ignorance and neglect toward their membership, the public and the traditions they profess to be concerned with...
That's fighting talk, c .... if there is real discontent amongst the membership as a whole, then it's time for people to stand up and express that. After all, 'the split' is a common enough feature of Irish public life!
Personally, I don't care too much one way or another. I'm happy to acknowledge the work of CCE over several decades but I'm not a member and I wasn't impressed with my contacts with the organisation in the past. Too much emphasis on preparing for Fleadheanna for our children's liking - that seemed to be the 'be and end all'.
At the end of the day, there's lots of Irish trad. music culture that has no connection to CCE.
First of all so you all know where I am coming from - I am a non-executive member of Cluain Tarbh
B. makes a number of assertions that must be answered:
1. The transfer of the VAT refund is more than a red herring! The reason the branch was dissolved was that they did not comply with an instruction to illegally transfer a VAT refund to the Comhaltas account.
2. There is a "power-grab" going on! The mechanism by which this is to be achieved is to "reconstitute" the branch with an unelected and unrepresentative executive committee.
A few words about this "committee":
- This committee was self appointed at a private meeting which excluded 90% of the current branch membership.
- The committee is so unrepresentative that they would be unknown to most of the membership. I myself despite being a member for many years do not know at least two members of this "committee".
- Membership is to be accorded to "members who are competitors for the Dublin County Fleadh Cheoil", i.e. children. No mention is made of the current senior members i.e. those entitled to vote.
- Several of the members have a direct vested interest in the control and running of the new centre.
3. There have been two EGMs and two other meetings of the entire branch. Not only have the membership been presented with the current committee's side they have also been presented with the other side. Labhras O Murchu and several other members of the Buanchoiste addressed the members and failed to convince a single person other than the core who established the other "committee".
Perhaps it was a mistake for me to wade in here - I simply felt that those getting the news only on the radio and other public sources should know that there are other things going on here, which I'm (still) not going to get into. So I'm going to go offline for the weekend and enjoy some sessions.
I also think that the round condemnation of the new committee is premature - there is hardly even an organisation here to protest against. As far as I know any group of 5 adults is entitled to get together and apply for membership as a Comhaltas branch. I believe that process is ongoing in this case, and I think that it is rather unfair to start debating membership and other issues regarding the "new" branch.
John: I take criticisms of my integrity and credibility extremely seriously. I have spoken here candidly and as fully as the current situation will allow, though not specifically on behalf of my employer. Anyone who knows me will confirm that I hold my word to be quite a serious thing, not lightly given. If you have any evidence to suggest that I have broken a trust or spoken wrongly, I would appreciate it if you could let me know. I'll be back online on Monday evening.
alright b...since u have d inside track...tell us a few things,on the cluain tarbh website i saw d handout 2 d county board,is it true that they did not hear or consider d story from cluain tarbh,or were they always guilty??how many were on d panel 4 deciding 2 suspend d branch?was there more then a couple?mairg,usaideann se iomhanna aille.
b;
If I might refer you back to the discussion posted on the 13th March by bullwell, you will note that I suggested then that you were putting yourself in an awkward position; also other comments agreeing with your assessment of the matter being a bit more complicated.
My criticisms of you integrity and credibility stem from the lack of information you provided regarding your position within the organisation, your ability to 'comment' on the matter whether officially or as a private individual and the source of your information. This has only today become clear and you would, in my opinion, have done better to say at the outset what your position within that organisation was.
Whether you have either broken a trust or spoken wrongly is impossible for me to say; CCE HQ ain't helping matters are they? I will also repeat, now, my request that CCE HQ make a proper statement as the comments at the moment are so one-sided.
My impression of your integrity and credibility stems from your reticence to say who or what you are at CCE, it has only become apparent in dribs and drabs through today. I take no pleasure in criticising you but perhaps this was a mistake on your part to wade in to these particularly (at the moment) murky waters. Nobody is perfect including me.
Nobody is coming out of this affair with any credit at the moment as I see it, Clontarf, CCE, me or your good self.
What a mess....
I am uncomfortable with only one perspective on this issue, but Comhaltas is doing itself no favours by not voicing openly their side of this rediculous outcome ~ whether or not they can actually make a reasonable argument for their decisions... I don't doubt that there is more than one side to it, and that several may be equally responsible for the outcome... Whoever and whatever, it is sad...
I have nothing to do with the organisation, but it strikes me that there is an important question that needs to be answered; is the organisation centralised and autocratic, or is each branch self-governing and independant ? This could come down to a battle in court if the branch committee chose to take it that far. Whose names are on the deeds for the property ? If it belongs to the branch ( committee ) then the constitution will answer to whether or not the central authority can impose its own rule over an individual branch. Who's got a rule book ?
It all seems a very funny business to me.
And all from a few people wanting to play some tunes together........
I am a member of Comhaltas for many years now. I have worked in a voluntary capacity at grass roots level doing whever I can to help an my children have benefitted enormously by learning music at Branch level. This situation with the Clontarf Branch and HQ saddens me and as a member of Comhaltas, I had no idea that this situation was festering The Branch should NOT have been suspended. The longer the silence from Comhaltas, the greater the damage being done. B you are closer to Belgrave Sq. than I am. For C***st sake deliver the message
Seems to me that the people who have their knickers in a knot about the affairs of a branch of Comhaltas and their dealings with the head Office of the organisation are not members of Comhaltas and have little time for Comhaltas. Why all the interest? Why are you so preoccupied?Have you all nothing better to do ?
The attitude of those who stoop to seemingly imply that one is not entitled to use the Gaelic form of ones name is contemptable. I understand Mr O Murchu changed his name to its Irish form by deed poll. (This has nothing to do with the Cluain Tarbh issue)
I feel John Knoss that questioning the integrity and credibility of "B" is serious stuff especially since in a recent post he had given information regarding his position in Comhaltas.
Perhaps you didnt see it . Check back!
If there were a competition for jumping to conclusions the contributers here would qualify hands down. We have heard one side of the story. Craobh Cluain Tarbh are predictably selective in the case they make. Perhaps the governing body of Comhaltas have their reasons for not debating the issue in the public arena. It would clarify matters if they gave their side however.
Hey there. For those still interested, I'm told that Comhaltas will (finally) be putting out a press release on Tuesday with some salient facts about the Clasac mess. And in the meantime, I've had internal discussions with some of the folks involved and there's no problem with me clearing up some misinformation in this forum.
(I know I said I'd be offline 'till Monday, but I guess I couldn't resist. Sorry! It bugs me when there's bad information out there. I'm still heading right out on a bike to go see more of Inis Mor, so I won't be answering any posts today.)
So. First, some facts. The problem with the theatre is actually pretty simple. Clontarf got the project going, held fundraisers and have been pushing the project. The whole thing got delayed by the Dublin Port Tunnel, but things finally got going last year. Most of the money for construction has come through government grants, not from bank loans. The construction has run over budget by about 2 million euro. (It's not Clontarf's fault: there were problems with site clearance, with road access, with construction surveys, with environmental impact -- all sorts of cost overruns that are unfortunately typical for large building projects, especially on reclaimed land.) The problem right now is where to get the extra money to finish the building and get it open. If the project had been funded by a bank, it would probably be easy enough to get a line of credit for the rest. As it is, coming up with the money is harder.
The site itself belongs to Dublin County Council, but Comhaltas (not Clontarf) was granted a 99-year lease on the property. Because neither the branch nor the central organisation own the land, we can't borrow against it to get a bank loan. Because the branch doesn't have a line of credit with a bank, Clontarf asked Comhaltas to pick up the bill for the 2 million, or to guarantee a loan. Comhaltas said sure, but for Comhaltas to get the loan we'd have to use our buildings like the Cultúrlann as collateral. In exchange for the money, Comhaltas wanted more control over the rest of the construction project, but the branch would use the new building and have representatives on the theatre's board, as originally planned.
The building itself was always going to be vested in Comhaltas, just like the other regional resource centers such as Cois na hAbhna in Ennis or Ceolaras Coleman in Gurteen. Anyway, that's the stand-off. If Clontarf could have finished the building with the original money, there would be no problem. But unfortunately the committee got in over their heads and didn't have a way to make up the difference. Essentially, that's what the fight is about.
At the same time, the Revenue sent back a VAT refund to the branch, for reasons that are unclear. The Department of Sport and Tourism tells Comhaltas that neither Comhaltas nor the branch are entitled to the money, and an internal Revenue investigation gets under way. Under instructions from the Dept of Sport/Tourism, Comhaltas asks for the money back from Clontarf so that it can be returned back to Government. The branch's lawyer says they can't send money back through a third party, and there's a dispute there. Doesn't really matter - either the branch gives back the money directly or they give it to Comhaltas to give back -- either way, the government wants its money back that apparently shouldn't have been refunded in the first place. In neither scenario does Comhaltas keep the refund!
Anyway, Comhaltas gave the branch 5 weeks to come up with a plan for making up the 2 million, the branch didn't file anything in the time, so the branch was suspended and then, after a further period, dissolved. In both periods of time the branch never presented a plan for finding the money to get the building opened, or came up with an agreement with the ardchomhairle of Comhaltas to share responsibility for the building construction.
So that's where we are, folks. Comhaltas wants to get the building finished, and I'm hopeful that Comhaltas will get the money somewhere and get the theatre opened. A new Clontarf committee has met, composed of (I believe) three former branch chairs with something like 35 years of chairing the branch between them, two former secretaries and a former treasurer. Hardly a puppet government of unknown characters. So the new committee will try to get classes and so forth back on track and work with Comhaltas to follow through on the original plan to get the Clasac theatre operational.
There have been times when I would disagree strongly with Comhaltas' actions. Complaining about Comhaltas is both easy and fun to do, and I spend plenty of time grousing along with my colleagues when the organisation does something particularly bone-headed. But this time ain't one of 'em. I'm pretty sure that if the membership of Clontarf had been presented with the plain facts by their committee, there wouldn't currently be such bad blood.
So, like I said, I won't be able to respond today, but I'll try and clarify where possible tomorrow.
b;
I owe you an apology.
Put simply, I'm sorry that I called into question your intergrity and credibility.
I promised myself (a long time ago) that I would not become involved in discussions that resulted in remarks of a 'personal' nature.
I also promised myself (a very long time ago) that I would never again (damn fool that I am) become involved in matters in the way Comhaltas was run and of those who run it.
b for their pains has taken a lot of stick, not just from me, for trying to put the 'other side' of case.
My final thoughts on this and then I'm done. Why it is that b has had to get permission/clearance to 'put the other side' when the whole matter should have been dealt with more finesse and authority. Why it is that CCE HQ could not have said earlier that they would be making a full statement by such and such date (avoiding all this nonsense) should provide us all with food for thought.
b, I would like to re-iterate my apologies to you, for the annoyance and distress that my comments must have caused you. I quite understand your feelings having had, in the past, my own crediblity and integrity questioned, it is unpleasant in the extreme.
It is my hope that some time in the future that we may exchange comment/discussion on other things without this episode interfering too much.
No problem. If internet flames turned into real ones, well, I guess we'd have a whole different problem with global warming. Of course I'm happy to discuss anything that comes up in future. The apology is accepted happily, with high marks for bravery and sincerity.
Anyway, there are certainly some things that Comhaltas does pretty well: teaching traditional Irish music is first among them. There are also some things that Comhaltas does quite badly, and unfortunately public relations is on that list. Getting better at the latter will take some time.
B, there is still an awful lot of explaining on how Comhaltas does its business. I was at the recent Emergency General Meeting (EGM) of Clontarf which Labhras O Murchu and some of the standing ctte of the Ard Comhairle attended. The members of Clontarf were abused in an arrogant and offhand manner and presented with a resolution, which asked them to end any interest for the branch in the governance or day to day running of the clasac center. Every overture by the branch for an attempt at a joint solution were dismissed out of hand and the detailed plans drawn up on the running of the center or proposals to jointly deal with the debt were dismissed with an arrogance bordering on contempt.
No option was on the table other than handing over the Clasac project lock stock and barrel to the Ard Comhairle. The resolution put by an Ard Comhairle member (who was also a seldom seen member of the branch) was rejected by well over 90% of the packed meeting and that I believe is the real problem. An alternative resolution calling for a joint approach between the branch and the Ard Comhairle was adopted. However, I for one knew from the attitude adopted that Labhras was not interested in a cooperative approach.
Contrary to what B claims the return of the VAT refund (a refund which the branch ctte. applied for and was granted) to revenue rather than to Monkstown was the reason (pretext) for the suspension and later dissolution of the branch.
Again, there was no question of a 5-week period for Clontarf to come up with a solution to the financial shortfall. They cannot raise money without the assent of the trustees and that was not forthcoming. Is B suggesting this is a good reason to get rid of the biggest branch in Comhaltas?
The attitude displayed on the night of the EGM was reminiscent of a Stalinist politburo rather than a democratic organisation. Like most of the parents (and the young musicians) that night I was shocked by the way the branch and the hardworking parents on the committee were treated and I was not surprised that the resolution was defeated (I wonder now was it ever expected to be supported)
The explanation that b and the powers that be need to provide is why the collective punishment of the whole branch was necessary in a dispute which you have not yet provided your side of the story, what crime fits such draconian measures?
Have we moved from a Stalinist style purges to an Alice in Wonderland concept of justice, as dealt out by the Queen of Hearts ''sentence first(off with their heads)--- trial later'' we will let you know the charges when it suits, maybe on live line or when an alternative branch is up and running.
I suspect the only explanation for such measures will continue to be unattributable innuendo and rumour; There are already plenty of them circulating around the country. Whereas all Clontarf has been asking for is transparency and due process.
There will be no explanation, which will bridge the yawning gap in equivalence between the actions of Labhras and co, the collective punishment of the whole branch, and the supposed misdemeanours of its committee.
As for the committee set up in private, that is better called an attempted coup. The experience of the members of this unasked for and unelected body is irrelevant. Perhaps they have been around too long. I think there is only one person on this self-appointed body who has children who are not now adults. They certainly would not be elected by the members of Clontarf branch given their current trajectory.
The real story is I suspect rather mundane, it is about power and control with a large dollop of nepotism thrown in. Given experience of musicians and indeed Comhaltas, branches in their dealings with Labhras nepotism might be seen as part of the tradition in Comhaltas.
I would be surprised if some of the coup d’etat committee did not see themselves with jobs in the new center whereas the majority of the elected committee were I believe in favour of professional management being recruited.
The branch is asking for support from all other branches of Comhaltas and from all involved in music outside of Comhaltas. Public money is involved and this lack of transparency and accountability is damaging to all aspects of traditional music. Many musicians are wary of Comhaltas but thanks to a huge amount voluntary effort it achieves a lot for the tradition, what is needed for a critical mass of musicians and Comhaltas members to come off the fence acquaint themselves with the issue and act before irreversible damage is done.
There seems to be a big difference between what b is saying and what puisin is saying. Looking forward to the press release. But how to repair the damage that is done?
Is any centre - even an 11 million one worth this acrimony and bad blood?
county board rule 4c states
The County Board shall have the right to suspend any branch, and/or remove from office, a branch officer or officers, where it has been clearly established that the branch or officers of the branch are guilty of conduct which is deemed to be contrary to the ideals and objects of An Comhaltas, as enshrined in this Constitution, and is calculated to bring An Comhaltas into disrepute. Where a branch is suspended, the County Board shall for the time being be empowered to exercise all the functions of the said branch. A branch or officer so suspended shall have the right of appeal to the Provincial Council.
Rule 16 states
By virtue of Rule 2 Section 6 of this Constitution all property in the possession or control of a Branch is vested in the Trustees of An Comhaltas and the authority of the Branch to deal with such property is subject to the approval of the Trustees and such approval may be withdrawn by the Trustees at any time. The Branch and each member of the Branch having possession or control of such property shall be responsible for the safe delivery of such property to the Trustees if such delivery is required by the Trustees.
Was it CLEARLY established that the branch or officers of the branch were guilty of conduct which was deemed to be contrary to the ideals and objects of An Comhaltas, as enshrined in this Constitution, and is calculated to bring An Comhaltas into disrepute? Were they given the right of appeal?
On the other hand does rule 16 mean that everything belongs to HQ trustees and they can call in the chips at any time?
interesting to hear a fuller version of 'de facts' and that clears up the story from the Comhaltas HQ side and 'B's' explanantion seems reasonable for first 6 paragraphs. Then it jumps off the rails - according to para 3 "Clontarf asked Comhaltas to pick up the bill for the 2 million, or to guarantee a loan. Comhaltas said sure....."
But then, "Comhaltas gave the branch 5 weeks to come up with a plan for making up the 2 million, the branch didn't file anything in the time, so the branch was suspended and then, after a further period, dissolved. " !!!
Now come on, B - there's obviously been errors of judgement on all sides but the above explanation of the 'facts' doesn't really ring true.
I'm afraid it does look very likely that CCE were trying to take over the branches baby after 99% of the hard work was done.
But then, maybe the Clontarf branch got in way over their heads. Large building projects eat money these days in Ireland but I'd be looking to see who was monitoring spending on the project. Once it looked likely that additional costs were being incurred and the suggested list of culprits above would all occur early in the development, then corresponding adjustments should have been made to fittings, finishes to bring it in on budget. It is madness to expect a voluntary committee to come up with plans in a few weeks to raise 5 milllion.
If the financial controller for the project was a voluntary person, the branch committee should kick them themselves - if a professional was in charge, then sue them.
Clontarf branch were beaten before they got started! CCE (top dogs) just want credit for all the hard work (and profit) Clontarf branch have achieved! They CAN'T do it themselves BUT want to STEAL the success of this dedicated, hard working branch, who by the way have already paid all dues asked (legally) of them by being a members branch of CCE. I was a founder member of a CCE branch still running) though I left many years ago through seeing many minor greedy little scams performed by CCE. The whole idea that got CCE on the road to promote Traditional music was accepted and backed by everyone that either started or joined a local branch. They agreed to aide by the rules CCE put forward, thinking that all dues paid by their branches were to help keep CCE afloat. But GREED has crept in (at the top) too many folk making too much money for doing nothing (most aren't even musicians)
CCE, I have totally lost all faith and respect for you!
Hussar, I'd certainly agree that the committee got in over their heads. The finances were overseen by a competent and nice guy, but nonetheless a volunteer member of the committee. Mixed-use building projects are hard to do, and insanely complex to manage. The problems with the branch weren't that they went over-budget, but that they stalled and stonewalled rather than coming up with a constructive solution. They could have established a line-of-credit with a bank, or formed the board into a separate non-profit, or worked on big-ticket named contributors, or a few things other than just ignore the mounting costs.
We did the best we could on cutting back - I remember going over each curtain, each chair, each light, each microphone, trying to find places to cut back on fittings. The plan is to open with only a fraction of the technical capability - the recording studio, for example, will start out life unfitted altogether. But it's been tough to find enough things to remove, with the sums so large.
And for both Hussar and Eoin, I'd question a little what it is that Comhaltas is supposed to have stolen or taken over: a site that was already leased to Comhaltas (not to the branch), a building already vested in Comhaltas, a construction project already funded through subventions of Comhaltas funding, a project with enthusiastic and time-consuming support from Comhaltas head office staff? Clontarf has done incredible things to get the project off the ground, get the site donated, get the clearances -- all the great stuff that they've done on this project. But this isn't a project that could be pulled off in isolation, and perhaps it's best that it was a partnership from the start.
Which is why when the committee started breaking promises to pay, the creditors called HQ.
And Eoin, I'm not sure who you think is so greedy here -- you really think there's any real money to be made as an organisation representing amateur traditional musicians? I can assure you, the bare handful of full-time Comhaltas staff are paid below the civil service scale, for example. Head office staffers work insane hours for little pay. Because we *are* musicians, and we believe in what we do.
Come on Breandan, as long as Comhaltas is extremely secretive about it's finances I don not buy into the 'poor traditional musicians organisation'. There are millions in grant money from public funds, national lottery etc going into the organisation.
I quote the late Tom Munnelly's post to the IrTrad mailing list from 6 dec 2002:
'Those of you in Ireland take a look at the current Phoenix magazine which runs an extensive profile of the Senator. Whereas they establish that there were outgoings of 550,000 euro for wages, pension, travel etc, they say that "the biggest single element here would be O/ Murchu's salary although the senator refused to elucidate ... on the amount he takes out of his organisation every year." Add that to his senator's salary and expenses and its nice work if you can get it.
Perhaps of even more interest to the CCE faithful who send monies to Monkstown is the passage "the organisation is a very successful one and although the accounts are not published, (Phoenix) can reveal that there were accumulated PROFITS (my emphasis) of 1.5 MILLION euro at the end of last year.'
No accounts have ever been published to disprove this information.
Kilfarboy, I seem to remember having this discussion with you before. And how many times are you going to bring that Phoenix article into evidence? You realise that it's a *satirical* magazine?
Anyway, there are millions, but for the last few years those "millions" included a whole bunch of money designated for Clasaċ specifically as part of Comhaltas' grant from Sport & Tourism. Most of those millions are being spent by guys with hard hats and high-visibility vests on a building site in North Dublin, not by an imagined class of the "trad elite" sitting in Monkstown. Much of the remaining travel and expenses cover not just Senator Ó Murchú but also thousands of examiners and adjudicators for Comhaltas exams and competitions.
Anyone who gets into this business for personal gain will be in for a pretty serious disappointment. As to secrecy, sure, as far as I know our books aren't open to the public. Um, can you think of any organisations that publish such information? Finances *are* discusses at the annual Congress in May, which is composed of hundreds of representatives from the branch, county and provincial levels.
But the total annual budget of Comhaltas is still a small fraction of the budgets for individual projects that I've managed in the past, so perhaps it's my perspective that's off.
Yes b, it is your perspective that is off- by a long way. And sure isn't that the way of it when you join an organisation like Comhaltas and more importantly isn't that the best way to have you- Emperor's New Clothes and all that. Whilst I respect your right to work for whatever wage you see fit, do you not think it a little strange that according to you ,the staff are working at less than civil service rates( not that means badly paid) whilst the man at the top is being well paid. Why should you have to work at less than what you consider is a good rate? Is everybody and I mean everybody, at Comhaltas working for less..? And what gives you the idea that the Irish Trad music needs sacrifices like that? It is well alive? Why all the melodrama..we "are" musicians and believe in what we do!! And so ! What do you do that requires you all to work insanely long hours? Why can't you be treated properly, paid a decent wage and proper hours? I certainly have no time for an organisation that treats their staff in such a fashion. And of course if they treat their staff like so, well who else will they treat badly?
Concertina, I was discussing what's been called a "top-heavy" and "greedy" organisation, and making the point that, whatever else is going on, those in the much-discussed "Comhaltas HQ" surely aren't in it for the money.
I guess for me personally, I work long hours because I used to do this work as a volunteer for Comhaltas whenever I got the chance, and now that I have the chance to do it full-time I consider it a privilege to serve. I do have my own issues with pay scale and staffing - I personally think that to accomplish our goals properly Comhaltas should expand considerably in the areas of full-time staff and infrastructure, more along the lines of the GAA. I'd certainly feel less pressure to work late if there was some back-up for the projects that I work on. No-one tells me to work late, but at the same time I do what I have to in order to succeed in my work.
Trad does require sacrifice, I've found: it requires dedication and practice time that perhaps we'd like to spend with our families; it requires pursuing a genre of music that will probably never put you much over the break-even point for gigs; it involves buying into an entire aesthetic of co-operative rather than competitive cultural expression that I find both wholesome and refreshing. I suppose we all accept these trade-offs in return for the joy it brings.
Like other non-profit pursuits, working for ITM can be a demanding thing to do. Rewarding, though: At the moment, I wouldn't want to do anything else. And sure, I put in more time than I strictly need to, for the same reasons that I also spend spare time with my own branch, and pay my dues as a member. Because it's worth doing.
'Um, can you think of any organisations that publish such information?'
Well, I am a member of Na Piobairi Uilleann which as far as I remember publishes it's financial, report annually.
Yes we had this discussion before, I keep mentioning the Phoenix article as long as, just as I said before, what it put forward isn't disproved by any information to the contrary from CCE and as long as you, along the same lines, keep saying there's no 'real' money in Comhaltas.
Last time you came up with that argument was just about on the day CCE in Clare received a grant of over 3 million to pour into Cois na bAbhna. You dismissed that as 'simply a bit of money to do much needed renovations on the building' which indeed it was, and a fine job they made of it too, but never the less, it's real money and it makes that the 'poor organisation' argument doesn't wash. If you think it's silly money not worth discussing, maybe it is indeed your perspective that's off.
I'm afraid that the press release was delayed - most of the leadership are in transit over to the North American convention. I believe it should be sorted out today.
And kilfarboy, I've never said that Comhaltas doesn't both ask for and receive millions of euros in government grants. It mostly goes into capital construction and renovation, as you said. My point was (and is) that there aren't any people getting rich by doing this. The question comes up frequently: "Where do all those millions go? People must be overpaid! There must be too many staff!" And that isn't the case. The money goes mostly to capital projects, which is a good thing. And to travel, and to concert tours, and to the SCT examiners, and to all sorts of people who are doing lots of good stuff. It doesn't sit at the top in some slush fund for senior staff.
My point was not that there's no 'real' money involved, just that what we have is not actually that much to run an organisation of this scope.
WHAT!!!! "most of the leadership are in transit over to the North American convention."
Sounds like a UN delegation trip. Can the North Americans not hold their own convention without most of the leadership attending? How much is this going to cost? Bet they dont dissolve any branches over there.
Knight, come on. Comhaltas is a pretty small organisation - by "leadership" I mean a couple of people -- they just happen to be the people who need to sign off on a press release. The North American Comhaltas committee have asked Senator Ó Murchú and some others to speak. And they fly coach.
If I have understood this correctly B seems to suggest that the branch has gone off on a bit of a lark, run up enormous debts and got the organisation into trouble. But if that were the case that alone would be a good enough reason to call for the resignation of Labhras O Murchu because it suggests that he cannot manage the organisation. No, the truth is that HQ was involved in every step along the way.
It had always been foreseen that there would be a requirement for borrowings to supplement the public funding. A loan had been successfully negotiated and agreed with the bank. All that was required was a guarantee to be given by Comhaltas. As all assets are vested in Comhaltas they are the only entity that can give such a guarantee. The branch owns nothing!
Whatever the merits of the arguments one thing is certain. This should NEVER have ended in the dissolution of the branch. This branch is a massive teaching, advocacy and promotional resource for traditional music for Dublin and beyond. This is all now put at risk!
Regarding the dissolution B is correct on thing - the issue of the VAT refund is a "red herring". There was I arguing above that we were dissolved because we didn't comply with an instruction to transfer a VAT refund to the Comhaltas account. The reason I thought that was that they wrote to tell us that we would be dissolved if we didn't do so. Yesterday I received a letter officially informing me of the dissolution. And guess what! It wasn't because of the transfer of theVAT refund. Presumably because, as we pointed out, that would have been illegal! So yesterday's reason for dissolution is today's 'red herring'. Which confirms my feeling that tthere was a determination to dissolve us regardless.
Having read the letter I have to confess that I am confused as to the actual reason this time. Various suggestions are proffered but I am at a loss as to the specific reason. The letter is not very clear.
What we want is very modest! We want our branch back with our right to democratically elect the officers of our choosing. Regarding Clasac we have no proprietorial ambitions. We don't own it and never will. All we want is that our work over the years is reflected by the implementation the agreement giving us the right to put five branch members on a twelve person board.
Still all this rancour is not without its lighter moments. Yesterday along with the notification of dissolution I got note with an attached document. The attached document, which I never saw before, was a letter complaining about how Labhras O Murchu has dealt with these matters. Its tone was perhaps a little intemperate but the content wasn't too far off the mark in my opinion. Anyway the note informed me that this document had been 'circulated' by someone from the branch and would be given to the Gardai (police). But the only time I got to see the document in question was when Comhaltas sent to me. Dirty tricks dept or what? Anyway if the Gardai call to my door I am going to tell them that the document was 'circulated' to me by the Ard Runai (general secretary) of Comhaltas!
As I recall, Dubh, the original agreement was for the branch to appoint two members to the board of Clasaċ, not five. I believe that was worked out years ago, long before any of this current dispute arose. I don't know of any reason why that won't be the case, as soon as the board is formulated.
I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why the branch was kicked out. It looks as if this was a joint project from the start with CCE HQ and the Clontarf branch.
B says above ''already leased to Comhaltas (not to the branch), a building already vested in Comhaltas, a construction project already funded through subventions of Comhaltas funding, a project with enthusiastic and time-consuming support from Comhaltas head office staff? Clontarf has done incredible things to get the project off the ground, get the site donated, get the clearances -- all the great stuff that they've done on this project. But this isn't a project that could be pulled off in isolation, and perhaps it's best that it was a partnership from the start.
Which is why when the committee started breaking promises to pay, the creditors called HQ.''
Well, why wouldn't they - any creditors would view the local branch and CCE HQ as one and the same.
So what's all this business about ''Comhaltas gave the branch 5 weeks to come up with a plan for making up the 2 million, the branch didn't file anything in the time, so the branch was suspended and then, after a further period, dissolved''
That's what doesn't make sense - yous are one and the same.
An Rogaire says ''A loan had been successfully negotiated and agreed with the bank. All that was required was a guarantee to be given by Comhaltas''
So it reads that the local branch did have a plan but CCE HQ wan't a different plan and when the local group wouldn't agree ... zap!
Hussar, I think you've summarised the problem pretty well; not as an illegal "taking" but rather as a disagreement over capital investment structuring. Admittedly, less sexy than the idea that Comhaltas inexplicably wanted to steal children's instruments ....
I refer you to my earlier post:
"Because the branch doesn't have a line of credit with a bank, Clontarf asked Comhaltas to pick up the bill for the 2 million, or to guarantee a loan. Comhaltas said sure, but for Comhaltas to get the loan we'd have to use our buildings like the Cultúrlann as collateral. In exchange for the money, Comhaltas wanted more control over the rest of the construction project, but the branch would use the new building and have representatives on the theatre's board, as originally planned."
To guarantee a bank loan and potentially put other Comhaltas buildings on the line, Comhaltas needed the project to be nationally run. Which isn't the way the project was originally envisaged, but if Comhaltas is going to put that loan guarantee out there (and not set a precedent for automatically guaranteeing loans for any project of any branch in future), there needed to be changes in the operational structure of the committee. This is serious stuff.
The committee was stubborn: they wanted to retain complete control over all aspects of money being spent, but simply get Comhaltas to put up the Cultúrlann as collateral for a loan to the committee with nothing in return. I'm not even sure the trustees of Comhaltas would be allowed to take such a step without breaching their own fiduciary duty to the organisation.
With the committee not budging, the number of options available to both parties went down considerably. With the project in potential jeopardy and vendors making noises in the press, Comhaltas tried one last time to reach an agreement with the committee. What happened after that failed is extremely unfortunate, but may have the eventual effect of saving the project.
I don't mean at all to sound unsympathetic to the members of Clontarf; I can only imagine how wrenching it is to have such apparently arbitrary power wielded from the sky, creating fear and uncertainty around what should be the greatest triumph of an already wildly successful branch. If my own branch were taken away for whatever reason, I'd be incredibly angry and upset. I really do sympathise.
To a certain extent, yes, many people were hurt because of the actions of a few, which always seems arbitrary and unfair. Unfortunately, the few are the elected representatives of the many, and sometimes the world seems to work like that. I'm really hoping that branch of Clontarf can re-form itself quickly, and that those who wish to remain affiliated with Comhaltas will be able to find, once again, a vibrant and strong local branch.
I think that firstly Brendan is quite entitled to work long hours for a less pay if that is what he wishes to do. And like others here, I once too did my time in the trenches, working on behalf of a branch I helped form. But like others I ran from it eventually angered by what I saw.
But like in a lot of organisations where there are those who are devoted to a pastime/hobby/activity, there are people who can be easily exploited by those "at the top".An example of which could be the horse industry ,where those who are mad to be with horses, work for little or no pay in return for access to their chosen devotion. And there is nothing wrong with this, if those at the top weren't on a different pay scale completely. And whereas all of this going on in a private company is bad enough, when it goes on in an organisation subsidised by tax payers money, it's not so good.
And in keeping with the arrogance of certain right wing establishments with close connections to the government, they see themselves above questioning and beyond accountability. Hence the lack of a statement. And when one was due to be issued, where are the leaders? In America ! Doing what exactly?? Surely to be accountable where such a serious accusation was being levelled, where there was such a furore, might be more important than all those who can sign off a statement being away. How many went for gawds sake? And why? Ah we won't go there. And in this day and age of telecommunications, couldn't they have signed off in America?
But in a strange way, the extra information that Brendan gave added more credence to the perception of the rot at the higher levels in Comhaltas. Even by Comhaltas standards, this whole business had seemed strange. But as Wounded said, it all is fairly clear that there was hidden agenda here.Five weeks to come up with 2 mill...mmmmm I don't think so??? And as rogaire said, why dissolve what apparently is the biggest branch in the country and must be one of the longest in existence as well. Nah, it stinks.
But it has to be said, that if this was new behaviour by Comhaltas, then one might be more inclined to look for some extenuating evidence and maybe be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. But all of this is quite in keeping with how they manage their affairs. Nothing new here. Dog don't change his spots.
Liveline and The Artists formerly known as Clontarf
I am a member of CCE fully aware of it's shortcomings and prepared to do my bit to change from within rather than sit on the outside throwing stones, or, on the fence, getting splinters and blaming someone else. The recent Liveline Programmes have saddened me more than a little
The following observations should be noted
1) Labhras O Murchu is not President of CCE nor has he been for years. The Ard Comhairle is elected.
2)Clontarf, undissolved, were not the biggest Branch in the World, Ireland , Dublin and often even the Northside.
3)Somebody claimed a Vat refund and then gave it back Regardless of "Expert Advice", it strikes me as strange that if the rebate was something they were entitled to that they should have handed back their "own" money. secondly how come an employee of the Revenue Commissioners was discussing Tax matters on the National Airwaves?
4) The same genius then claimed that had it not been for the actions of the big bullies on the Ard Comhairle, Clasach would have been opened on St Patricks weekend. Without sewers , water or licences that would have been lovely.
5) Nobody mentioned refusing kids Fleadh Applications
6) Eleven million . Mostly from the Arts Council and their own fundraising.
Ill-informed twaddle Hardly surprising that nobody commented on Liveline Mark 1 Not one word of truth or sense
Liveline 2 however raised some very interesting points.
1) Why , when given an instruction with a specific timeframe was there such a kerfuffle when they did not receive letters officially dissolving the Branch. One month is one month lads get real and one month is what you got.
2)Why whinge about some members forming a Branch ,there was a facility in the instruction from the Ard Comhairle to allow for reinstatement. Did anybody apply ? Did anybody want to?
3) Why shouldn't people whose Branch has been dissolved apply to form another branch ?
4)Why should it matter that the people ,who did form a new Branch , are not parents of Children receiving lessons. It is a Comhaltas Branch not a Music School It is in no small part due to the experience and hard work of the individuals concerned that Craobh Cluain Tarbh enjoyed for so long such a high regard.
5) What benefit could anybody have possibly derived from speaking ill of those who at all times have given their all for Clontarf CCE.? Virtually every penny raised for their Teach Cheoil was raised on their efforts. It is important to remember that Comhaltas is about Tradition. That may well make us somewhat conservative but if we are to protect and foster our traditions it is to those that went before that we should be taking our leadership and not aspiring to be a sterile academic forum where fanciful theories abound and friendships become matters of political expediency.
The issues Re Clontarf V CCE Ard Comhairle could have probably been handled differently but I don't think the unease felt by some in Clontarf could have been assuaged .
Clontarf Branch have long aspired to having their own Teach Cheoil and fundraised over a decade to finance it. Several setbacks later and almost all the monies gone they secured a lease on a site (Vested in CCE and not Clontarf) Political funding was promised that would have had to be matched I'm sure, if it was to be drawn down ,Bertie gives nothing away that easy. There it would still be today were it not for the Funding That Sen O Murchu negotiated with the government
Capital Grants became available a few years ago and it became possible to build a "Regional Resource Centre" on Clontarf's site (leased to CCE)
Congress that year was abuzz with the great news Millions of euro to fund loads of projects. Project Driven. Meitheal Projects
Projects Projects Projects. Comhaltas had entered into a new and modern landscape of buzzwords and cliche and this Project driven ethos was being lauded reccommended and endorsed by one man in particular. He painted a bright and rosy future for Comhaltas with a load of new Regional Resource Centres. Westmeath, Louth ,Dublin and others. Regional Resource Centres his Buzzword Regional Resource Centres not Clontarf's Centre . Monies made available from the exchequer for Regional Resource Centres
No outcry then from Clontarf Delegates
No "They're taking our building".
No "After all our hard work"
None of that , that year. Mind you the man working hardest to push this Regional Resource Centre agenda was from Clontarf and in all the recent public airing of grievences, he has remained remarkably quiet.
No amount of "he said she said" is going to solve this problem in Clonmtarf but matters may not have come to the unpleasant state at which they now are had all the facts been known by all concerned.
Committee members (Dissolved) have ,by their utterances on National radio, shown a remarkably tenuous grasp of the realities of the machinations of CCE and the complexities of the Clasac issue . They have however shown a remarkable conceit . Do they really still believe that a Government Department saw fit to single out a one of Comhaltas and bestow millions upon millions of euro to fund an isolated fiefdom to the exclusion of all other Branches. L'Oreal funding (Because we're worth it ) doesn't exist in the real world.
Most of the Officers of the dissolved Branch have opted to keep quiet I wonder why.
Second last paragraph 2nd last sentence
should read " Do they really believe that aGovernment Department saw fit to single out one Branch of Comhaltas " etc.
This situation can never be solved while Larry, the present CCE HQ and all their hangers on are there. It is all nepotism and is being actively perpetuated- take my word for it.
It is more than about the CLASACH centre. Larry is not the real problem. It is the lackeys who keep and protect him.
Strange as it may seem, Larry is probably the most idealistic of the whole lot of them.
He has surrounded himself with people of little talent.
"4)Why should it matter that the people ,who did form a new Branch , are not parents of Children receiving lessons. It is a Comhaltas Branch not a Music School"
I think this statement is a disgrace.
How can you operate a CCE branch without representation from the children/students who are learning to keep this culture alive.
Most of these students are under 18 years of age and need their parents vocal support. It matters 100% that this faux board are not parents of current students.
Comhaltas branches ARE music schools by default. Do you include 'standing around getting pictures taken for Treoir' a cultural activity....
I really hope you point #4 was meant to be a double negative.
What amazes me are the number of people who " are prepared to change from within rather..." usually stated as being better than "sit on the outside throwing stones, or, on the fence, getting splinters and blaming someone else"
Well I wish you would get a move on and make these changes you keep going on about, because there are still no changes of any substance nor has there been down through the years!!
Why not read the history of what happened with the Willie Clancy week or better still talk to those who were involved back then? Talk to the older members of Na Píobairí Uilleann and see what they have to say about Comhaltas and how Comhaltas attempted to grab power and control. Why not check up on Labhras(Larry, Senator)'s behaviour on the subject of Irish Trad music and the "dea"l with IMRO? etc etc. Yeah, by all means stay on the inside and make the changes. But make them- if you can. I for one won't be holding my breath.
concertinaplayer
I am one of those people who are still within but I am in despair because I see no means to effect change while all of the top echelons are resistant to change - in fact , fear change. If you look at any busines, government department, etc change will not happen from below up, because it makes too many people uneasy. e.g HSE, etc. Change should come from the top.
Not saying they get it right , but they create changes.
It would take an incredibly brave individual to battle alone against the might of the Branch, Provincial and National "Old Guard" to try to bring about change - especially when their children are closely involved in classes, competitions , etc. No parent would want to jepordise or embarass their own child.
Also, of course, it is a grace and favour system. If you actively support the "Old Guard", you will be in the inner circle. If conform and dont make noises you will be tolerated and perhaps thrown a scrap or two ( the odd free meal, etc.) If you rail against the injustices you see all around you, you will be ignored, shunned, in the hope that you will simply go away. Dear dissolved members of Cluain Tarbh, welcome to the latter category!!!
However -- I would note that neither West London, IMRO nor the 1999 Arts Report have anything to do with the current discussion of Clasac and Cluain Tarbh. Yes, Comhaltas and members of Comhaltas have been involved in controversial issues over the last 50 years. I'd be surprised if they hadn't.
Tommy dear misinformed Tommy
The aims and objecties of Comhaltas place lessons way down the list of priorities . There is probably little point in arguing with someone so unfamiliar with the Organisation but I'll go on . There are Comhaltas branches worldwide ,running Sessions Ceilithe and Concerts with classes taking a lesser place in the scheme of things . Take a look at the really renowned Branches . Cumann na bPiobairi Uilleann for example and you'll find that their membership consists of far more Adult Members than kids . Yes they do run classes and very successfully at that but the balance between old and young means that the younger musicians learn more from their interaction with accomplished musicians than in any classroom. Classes can only teach tunes Sessions teach music and Comhaltas is about music .
Music stays with you for life , tunes can be forgotten all too quickly.
In the last few years filling the position of Youth Officer has become mandatory at all levels of CCE. This was at first seen to be tokenism however in the areas where it has been implemented wholeheartedly it has proven to be an enormous success. Remarkably in Branches where the entire raison d'etre of the committee members is lessons for their kids, the input from the Youth Officers seems to amount to very little and the number of kids who remain playing music with their branch as they pass the age of eighteen seems to dwindle far greater than in the branches where the young are trusted enough to be allowed to participate as members not as pupils.
Comhaltas is reaching a crisis in this regard. Self serving interests of pushy parents means that a chosen few get a chance to shine to the detriment of the musical aspirations of the less talented, less well off and this as I have already said is not a Comhaltas aim or aspiration. Traditionally music was learnt from musicians and students talents were honed in sessions. Now in some instances tunes are taught by teachers with a medal as the prize rather than a lifelong enthusiasm for one of the worlds finest artforms.
In the main people join Comhaltas with the above in mind, others I'm afraid have to learn this the hard way and some will never learn.
"The aims and objecties of Comhaltas place lessons way down the list of priorities . There is probably little point in arguing with someone so unfamiliar with the Organisation but I'll go on ."
Banjocp,
I don't know if this point was directed at me but I am very familiar with the 'organisation'
I was a member of the Clontarf branch of CCE and I was very instrumental in organising the very first fund raising conert for the future facility. That concert was in Liberty Hall and featured the Maire Breathnach Band and a host of under 15 musicians from branches all over Dublin.
I currently teach music at a CCE branch in St Louis and one thing I will note is that the parents of current students are very much involved in the running of the branch.
"Take a look at the really renowned Branches . Cumann na bPiobairi Uilleann for example and you'll find that their membership consists of far more Adult Members than kids ."
Is that adult students or just adults?
"Music stays with you for life"
Isn't that the sometimes forgotten beauty of it!
"tunes can be forgotten all too quickly"
Depends on the tune.... ;)
"Remarkably in Branches where the entire raison d'etre of the committee members is lessons for their kids, the input from the Youth Officers seems to amount to very little and the number of kids who remain playing music with their branch as they pass the age of eighteen seems to dwindle far greater than in the branches where the young are trusted enough to be allowed to participate as members not as pupils"
I can kinda see your point in practice but I've never seen it happen in the few branches that I've been involved with.
It's a big world....
"Self serving interests of pushy parents means that a chosen few get a chance to shine to the detriment of the musical aspirations of the less talented, less well off and this as I have already said is not a Comhaltas aim or aspiration."
Banjocp,
As a teacher of whistle, flute, uilleann pipes and fiddle for 20 years I've had my fill of pushy mammys......
Yes there is the mammy who wants little Johnny to bring home the gold medal. And then there is then Mammy who wants to call you all kinds of names under the sun coz little Johnny didn't win.
Then you have little Joe who doesn't like competitions and he just wants to learn tunes and have fun at sessions. But the branch secretary enters him in the competition anyway because they want the $10 entry fee, joey gets p*ssed off from getting yelled at for not competing and quits playing altogether.
Pushy branch runai's do more damage that pushy mammys..
Not all the time but from what i've seen over the last 20 years it's 50/50 easy.
To correct you again, I am a lot more familiar with this set up than you presumed. Not your fault, you don't know me. Which is probably why you should have left off the "Dear misinformed" bit
Wouldn't be just great if CCE stuck to what they do best and teach and encourage people to play tunes.
"Classes can only teach tunes Sessions teach music and Comhaltas is about music "
Hmmm....
Sessions are about playing what you have already learned. Classes are where you learn. Sessions are where you ply your trade.
Competant musicians teach music. You may pick up a bit of a new tune at a session but you won't learn how to 'play it' from sitting with 5 or 10 musicians going hell for leather on a saturday evenin'. Sessions may encourage structure but not musicianship.
there's a vast difference.
Been a quiet day on the Clontarf Battlefield. "Saght mir wo die blumen sind?" Where have all the flowers gone? We await a response to the official statement posted on the Comhaltas Website from the members of Craobh Cluain Tarbh , who were so forthcoming a few days ago . Hopefully the "Comhaltas bashers " who were so rash in their appraisal of the situation , while they had only one side of the story will learn something.
I waited for the other side of the story before rushing to judgement .
Perhaps those who posted intemperate comments and indulged themselves in character assasination will have the decency to withdraw their remarks and post an apology in light of the information which has now been made public.
Maybe Mr Duffy will also learn something about balanced radio broadcasting.
One can only wonder how long it will be until Breandan Breathnach and the Piper's club and their activities are put under the microscope.
Comhaltas is not a perfect organisation , far from it . It has however done good work during the 50+ years of its existence.
Firstly lordgordon, I am one of those who have made criticisms of Comhaltas in the past and will continue to do so, should the opportunity arise. There is absolutely no chance I will withdraw any remarks. Firstly, despite all the talk about ard comhairles and committees etc, the contact name on the statement is Labhras, Larry, Senator whatever which goes to show that his finger is still very much in the pie
Secondly, I and others have repeatedly said that Comhaltas do good work so you are hardly bringing anything new to the discussion in saying that, but - and there is a but- the part of Comhaltas that do the good work are those at the so called grassroots level and this description is always another way of saying that there is a bunch of people doing loads for nothing or in the case of those on a wage, for little or nothing( see b's own admission)
Thirdly, even in the case that the statement is a totally accurate one, there is a case here of giving a " dog a bad name". Perhaps you might read the article on the IMRO incident and come back then and tell us how whiter than white" Comhaltas is.And you can take it that this particular incident is very far from isolated and in fact it is accepted even in Comaltas circles that there is an upper or inside circle that rules with an iron fist whilst making sure to do as little of the hard work such as teaching and the little but important chores in the day to day running of the branches as possible.
I speak from over thirty years participation on and off, in trad music,including as I said the founding of a branch of Comhaltas and can tell you that whilst we all admit that members of Comhaltas has done good work, a lot of us know that down through the years it has shown itself to be quite capable of dodgy and questionable behaviour.
As someone who depended at times in my life to be paid by site managers etc, it didn't do me any good to read of tradesmen being left without money at any time and especially Christmas.
If the statement from Comhaltas is 100% accurate then what is more worrying than anything else is that quite a few members from Clontarf would appear to need psychiatric help .To go on radio shows and to the media in general to talk about this as they did when the truth was as in the Comhaltas statement, seems strange.- *if * the statement is 100% accurate and *if* all that happened is in the statement. It is the last part that I wonder about.
As for Brendán Brethnach being examined, well I am sure he doesn't care seeing that he is no longer of this earth. And I wonder why you would single out Na Píobairí Uilleann for questioning- is there something we should know lordgordon? On the subject of Na Píobairí Uillean- that is the proper name for the organisation and not the Pipers Club which is in fact the name of a branch of Comhaltas based in Dublin. Or is there something about that particular branch needs checking on?
Hi Concertina player,
Im in complete agreement with your first paragraph.
Yes I have read the report on the IMRO incident and here again we are in agreement. I did NOT even suggest that Comhaltas was "whiter than white" - your words not mine.
Perhaps you would come back and tell me where I said that . --or visit Specsavers - joke ! "Comhaltas is not a perfect organisation , far from it . It has however done good work during the 50+ years of its existence"
I have absolutely no axe to grind with Na Piobairi Uilleann (I stand corrected on the proper name ) or the late Breandán Breathnach (with whom I was acquainted) I chose them as an organisation with similar aims and wondered would they be next for trial by " thesession.org" Forgive me any members of Na Piobairi Uilleann if my reference implied anything questionable. It was not my intention . Is any organisation "whiter than white" Concertinaplayer ? Like our political parties "Let him that is without sin etc."
You seem to doubt the complete accuracy of the Comhaltas statement , Did you have doubts about the accuracy of the Clontarf side of the story when you posted earlier comments?
As far as I am concerned the jury is still out . I await as I said a response to the Comhaltas statement. from Clontarf. I expect the truth is somewhere between the two sides of the story. I do not give blind allegiance to any organisation or political party . I lay blame where I think it's due . but neither do I form a judgement based on one side of any story.
Let's not waste time in futile argument about organisational politics but get on with playing and enjoying music. Have a good day .
What we have now is to different accounts of events, we can only wait and see how things pan out, maybe in time we'll find out which elements of the statements are the facts as they happened.
LordGordon defends his organisation by throwing mud at others, poor Breandan gone to his reward twenty six years ago was one of these people driven by a vision and passion that never brought him material gains. One of these people, Tom Munnelly is another one and many more could be named, who was always extremely generous and helpful, always willing to share and impart knowledge to help people along, always workign in service of music and culture.
Na Piobairi Uilleann, always a sore spot for Comhaltas after their attempted powergrab when the organisation came into being failed, is highly successful and single handed;y responsible for the state of piping today. I have been in the past critical of some things going on in the organisation but never ever have they ever been involved in anything comparable to the antics of CCE. If they would, I am sure the microscope will come out to give them a hard look, and so they'd deserve. Lacking any intrigue and scandal,lordGordon, I am afraid there's little to see.
Have you read my reply to concertinaplayer? Comhaltas is not MY organisation . Labhras o Murchu and the ard Comhairle are not Comhaltas. Some people are visiting the perceived sins of the few on the large number of hard working people who make up comhaltas,also working VOLUNTARILY in the service of music and culture . I am not defending anyone or anything other than " innocent until proven guilty. " -Even the right of "a dog with a bad name"
Perhaps you might give some background to the attempted powergrab which has been mentioned a couple of times. Like the IMRO thiing it's healthy to hear it all.
"What we have now is to different accounts of events, we can only wait and see how things pan out, maybe in time we'll find out which elements of the statements are the facts as they happened." My point exactly. Pity you joined those throwing stones when we only had one of the story .
Hi again Kilfarboy
I changed username while away over weekend and had forgotten my password so I I'm back as piper Reilly . You challenged me to comment when this thing broke but I chose to wait for more informatiom . Cheers
I think we were writign at about the same time, when I started writing your reply wasn't there, it had appeared when I posted mine.
Somehow I thought you were Piper Reilly, I even checked your profile and found nothing there to confirm it.
As stated above, this is not a situation without precedent, the case as presented by the Clontarf branch is perfectly in character, I have no reason as yet not to consider it credible, but we'll wait and see.
post on website wwwmudcat.org
Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,kevink
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 06:19 PM
Over the last few days, the position of breandain has evolved. Initially he presented himself as an impartial observer who respected both sides as acting out of purely selfless motives, now given the pure volume of his contributions to this and other sites and his unquestioning support of head office's version of events and despite the contradictions with his own earlier versions of events its my opinion that Breandain is acting as the main full time spokesperson for head office.
AN ECHO FROM HISTORY?
In 1953, a popular uprising in what was then East Germany (the GDR) was crushed by Russian tanks. Responding to the irony of workers being militarily crushed in what was laughingly called a workers democracy the great German writer,Bertolt Brecht, who lived in the GDR, courageously commented on the events and the 'official' version of same through the poem below,
The Solution
Bertolt Brecht
After the uprising of the 17th June
The Secretary of the Writers Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?
I am not trying to directly compare such tragic events with the unfortunate row with Cluain Tarbh but there are some parallels in methodology. At the EGM where many Cluain Tarbh members heard the views of Labhras and the standing ctte, many for the first time, the vast majority of parents and young people rejected their viewpoint and the resolution put to the meeting by a member of the Ard chomhairle by about 95%. The 5% minority, and I am being generous here, who supported the attacks on the branch executive are now the 'officially' recognised self-selected Cluain Tarbh branch.
Does that not echo Brecht's jibe on dissolving the people and electing another. How can one have respect for the people involved in such a manoeuvre?
In Breandains more recent statements there seems to be attempts to airbrush very recent versions of events. The dissolving of the branch, a very difficult act to defend, is increasingly being changed to the dissolving of the branch ctte. Is it the truth that the branch had to be dissolved because the members wouldn't be bullied into submission? I use the word bullied because of the extraordinarily aggressive and contemptuous attitude displayed on that night to the upstanding and honest members of the branch who have no agenda outside the best interest of the branch and Comhaltas. They all have day jobs and are outstanding volunteers in their own time.
The necessity and methods used for the dissolution of the branch is still not being explained despite all the thousands of words expended on this site and others by Breandain and this to me is the most important issue facing all members of CCE
With the greatest of respect piper reilly, if you will kindly look again, you will see that I have no issue with the main ground force of comhaltas, do not consider it "your comhaltas" or anything like it. What I am saying and indeed to echo what Kilfarboy has said, this behaviour by a certain few at the top or the inside whatever way you want to put it, is not new nor out of character. And the reply from Clontarf shows that very clearly. My suspicions about what had been left out were well founded and if anything in the Clontarf statement is to believed, it is the the terrible sense that they had worked in conjunction with HQ until HQ saw the time to grab had arrived and did so.
But what fascinates me is why are people using the "ordinary membership" of comhaltas as a distraction? No one to my knowledge has anything bad to say about the voluntary workers of Comhaltas. Likewise, anyone who works long hours for little play( or pay less than civil service rates) like b says he does, is not being disparaged here. Nor are there aspersions being cast on the good work done by the grassroots in running classes. What has long been a sore point is the behaviour by a few and I wonder what it is that stops you seeing this and keeps you using the siege mentality as a means to defend your believes. (At this point I am wondering how you got on a specsavers)
Like I said above, the minute you read the statement from Comhaltas, the first thing you see is the contact name. And that tells you all you need to know. Yes Labhras and Ard Comhairle are not Comhaltas but nobody told Labhras and nobody has the spine or back bone to. But as puisin alludes to- why all this defence of the innder sanctum of Comhaltas from it's office workers? The inner sanctum who won't even pay them a decent wage? And why can't they pay them a decent wage when the monies are being given to them through grants etc. As b's writing unfolded, you could see that he went from someone who apparently knew very little about it to someone who had been well versed- by who I wonder and why?
To conclude, nobody to my knowledge is in opposition to the classes, the ceilis , the Tionol and even at a push the competitions; nor are they critical of the great dedication and love for the music shown by everybody concerned at that level. But whether you like to acknowledge it or not, it is at or after this point that people tend to lose interest and indeed respect for Comhaltas and if a small minority of the membership colour people's perceptions of Comhaltas as a whole ,then perhaps it might be time for those who like to boast of how "they are working to change things from the inside" to actually do something. Because most musicians I know have no time whatsoever for the top brass and general find them reprehensible and that includes long time members.
Yes dílis, Mrs Labhrasa and if you wish to see where some of the money for it came from, see the link posted above by b himself and by his own admission doesn't paint Labhras in a very good light. Nothing changes, nothing changes. Dogs and spots and all that !
Some questions b could help with.
Is Labhrás Ó Murchú on a salary from cce apart from the one he gets from the Senead with expenses? Is it as modest as 'bs'
Is Ms Ní Mhurchú on a salary/expenses from cce for Bru Bru in Cashel?
Does Labhrás have the use of an appartment in cce headquarters when in dublin on Senead business?
i've been working in this music buissness for 30 years,
and i've been promoting diddle dee da music all over the country so before i resign can can someone tell me the diffrence bewteen a jig and a reel??
Tommy ,
First things first ,
Let me apologise for appearing patronising I spent the previous few days listening to information, misinformation, nonsense and drivel. You took some flak more properly aimed elsewhere.and I'm sorry. I'm pleased to note that we seem to take a rather similar notion with regard to pushy parents and secretaries.
To answer one of your questions Cumann na bPiobairi Uilleann CCE, as indeed many of the older and well established branches have a majority of adult members not necessarily musicians. They join to share a common interest in furthering and fostering Traditional Music. the players play and pass on the benefit of their wisdom ,the others often Parents of Members who have grown up and moved on , put their efforts into helping out at sessions, Fleadheanna , Ceilithe and all for no financial reward. Their experience and abilities ought not to be overlooked they are often the public face of Comhaltas and their enthusiasm is often the motivating force in newer people becoming involved. Again I'm happy to say I was wrong, Mr Informed Tommy.
P.s give my regards to Ms Gannon.
Now those nice folk who take the view that personalising the issues above and in particular those taking a pop at Sen Labhras O Murchu, should bear a few things in mind.
Contrary to their assertions that the Ard Stiurthoir is a self appointed Grand Vizier surrounded by a conclave of obedient sychophants on the Ard Comhairle and willing drones in Headquarters, let us get one thing straight. The Ard Comhairle Standing Committee is elected. You get what you vote for and if in the opinion of these elected representatives Sen O Murchu should remain in office, that is one of the powers they are entitled to exercise.
If you're in CCE and not happy with the man, Change his bosses. Attend your branch meetings become informed of and participate in your County/Provincial business . attend, or familiarise yourself with the goings on and workings of ,National Congress. Thats where it all happens Folks . Any Seven People may form a Branch, Members elect a Branch Committee. The Branch elects to the County The County and Branch to the Province The Branch , County and Province to the Ard Comhairle and they, appoint the Director General.
Not self appointed, not the Grand Vizier but a a Director General paid to do a job.
I doubt if anybody in CCE has agreed with everything that Sen O Murchu has said and done in his position. That is both natural and to be expected and I suppose that as the Person "placed" at the pointy end, he is inevitably going to present a target for those not happy with the governance of CCE. We're all guilty of it to one degree or another forgetting that we employ him to do the job but the perpetual harping on of those, particularly ex-members or those who were never members is getting a little hard to take. If they don't participate in CCE and/or do not like the processes we adopt , join and engage to effect change failing that , accept the democratic wishes of our membership. Most of us do and we get along just fine.
"There is a "power grab" going on the ,mechanism by which it is to be achieved is to "reconstitute" the Branch with an unelected unrepresentative committee"
An Rogaire Dubh Mar 21 2008
Followed by a few words about the Committee
1) This Committee was self appointed at a private meeting which excluded 90% of the "Current Branch Membership"
Question Is this the Dissolved "Current Branch Membership"? If so what was wrong with forming a Branch that is prepared to accept the terms of membership of CCE
when they no longer had a branch to participate in.
That Committee was elected to represent those people who felt that they should not suffer penalty for the actions of some which brought about the dissolution of their branch. A branch I might add to which these people have collectively given several centuries of service. Unrepresentative??? I don't think so . They represent the bedrock of CCE the ones who get in and work and work and work and when a problem arises they seek to find solutions not confrontation. All of the members of the Branch formerly known as Clontarf joined "Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann" and they are entitled to exercise their Constitutional rights to form their own branch should they so desire.
An Rogaire Dubh
your Branch was dissolved, Your branch were collectively given an opportunity to comply with an instruction or face a very specific consequence. Your Branch was given the facility to apply for reinstatement and the issue and prospect of dissolution was never put properly to your members so if these people took a decision to form a branch, after the date of your dissolution .whats it to you?
"Membership is to be accorded to "members who are competitors in the Dublin County Fleadh Cheoil ie children. No mention of the current senior members ie those entitled to vote "
"Current Senior Members" of what exactly? All Branches are open to young and old who agree to accept the governance of CCE Bunreracht and I'm not aware of anybody willing to accept said governance being refused. Are you?
AND THEN WE NOTE
" Several of the members have a direct vested interest in the control and running of the new centre"
An Rogaire Dubh let me tell you now and kindly impress this on your fellow travellers for ever more , EVERY MEMBER OF COMHALTAS CEOLTOIRI EIREANN, HAS A VERY DIRECT AND VERY VESTED INTEREST IN THE CONTROL OF THE NEW CENTRE, We ( All members) paid for it . We ( All members)denied other projects their funding for it . We ( All members)are still waiting for it. But we ( All members)have learnt from it .
In all the noise on Radio ,the inaccurate reporting in the Indo and indeed this very forum there has been much said regarding Comhaltas and in particular the Ard Comhairle 's and Sen O Murchu's involvement As I have said in previous entries I thought it unfair to single out one individual in the proceedings. The artists formerly known as Clontarf ,for all their letter writing ,blogging radio story telling ,exaggerating and fabricating, may well find that their bogey men are far closer to home than the offices in Monkstownand whilst their loyalty to their masters may warrent some commendation , I ask this question footsoldiers, where are your leaders, why are the hiding behind you, why did we never hear their names on the radio, or see their names in print, what exactly are they afraid of.
Re: Forget the Politics !! As per Bannerman's suggestion
After posting my comment above in reply to Bannerman's quite understandable plea to leave the politics to one side, the comments that followed and comments on other threads, I got to thinking about Comhaltas and it's relationship to musicians in general.
Over thirty years, of all the musicians I have known in different counties, only one is a member of Comhaltas. Some of us were at times "involved", some got lessons and some taught (in some branches, membership is compulsory in order to teach or get classes) but over a period of years, no one that I know of actually remained a member for very long. The one remaining member is not a member that long so it remains to be seen how long that lasts.
Furthermore, when there is a session being held regularly in a particular town/village and the question of the musicians giving classes arises, a branch of Comhaltas can be formed for no other reason than it is easier to do it that way. That Comhaltas provides insurance, thereby making it easier to get the use of schools/community centres for classes is probably one of the main reasons why a branch is formed. After a branch is formed, the classes begin and apart from sending the money on to HQ, there is no real connection to Comhaltas other than receipt of the quarterly magazine and entering younger players into competitions if they or their parents so wish. But for most, HQ is of no relevance to them.
And so one might well find that in some communities, especially outside of Dublin, Comhaltas is hardly recognised. If I were to ask for example were there fiddle classes available, I could be told that Johnny so and so or Mary so and so's daughter teaches fiddle over in the primary school of a Tuesday night. A B&B landlady, who I stay with in Clare, tells me that she sends her daughter across to so and so and he's very good. That any of those teaching the fiddle or whatever instruments are doing so under the auspices of Comhaltas or in classes organised by a Comhaltas branch can be irrelevant. Maybe because the passing on of music especially in rural areas is a community thing? The community look after their own, neighbours help each other and the teaching of your neighbour's kids is done as part of your contribution to your community. This has always been the way, long before the advent of Comhaltas with the most extreme case being that a teacher would travel from another part of the county to teach.
Although I don't have access to figures, I would imagine that membership of Comhaltas can be a transient thing for a lot of players. They join either by own choice, by the parent’s choice or if they have to when getting classes and then let the membership lapse when the need for classes is over. Of course this is not always the case but as "banjocp" touches on in another thread, sometimes the core membership of a branch can consist parents /people who don't play. Why?
Maybe in Ireland (and it's all I can talk about) , the general attitude of the thousands of musicians who play is one of indifference to Comhaltas- no animosity, indeed a recognition that is a great place to get classes- but just indifference. Like the North Pole, they know it's there? The sessions and the playing go on without any involvement from Comhaltas. It was like that before Comhaltas and in all likelihood would go on if Comhaltas were to cease to exist.
So it is difficult at times to see where Comhaltas get the idea that they are the "keeper of the flame", " minder of the lamp" and the one entrusted in the promotion of the music. The facts are that the music doesn't nor never has needed "promotion" and in fact the nature of the musician and of the session is that players don't care if anyone is listening, they would almost prefer that sessions stay underground. As I have said, it has always survived. Yes, we all agree that Comhaltas has played a part in the continuance of the tradition (to what extent is debatable), we will all give credit where it is due, but my experience and that of others, is one of indifference to the "goings on " in Belgrave Sq. But despite the beliefs of those with the siege mentality, there is no one just hanging around, seething with anger at Comhaltas or slag it off at any given chance.
However, where the indifference certainly does turn to anger, is when the seemingly power hungry mits of certain Comhaltas members reach out to grab at and influence in a way they see fit and in a way that offends the very soul of the music, the very thing that they claim to be nurturing. And the facts are that there have been many incidents of this. Incidents, which in some ways are beyond understanding and it, could be said in modern jargon, that Comhaltas seem very keen to talk the talk but at times certainly do not walk the walk.
For example, why has there been a policy of almost ethnic cleansing of certain regional styles by certain factions within Comhaltas? Why is B/C style of box playing given preferential marking over C#/D in competitions? (That this style of box playing is surviving and in fact experiencing a bit of a revival is testament, thankfully, to how little influence Comhaltas has). Why have certain regional styles of singing been ostracised in Comhaltas? Who decides this policy? And why? How can an organisation that professes itself to be a nurturer and promoter of Irish Traditional Music give preference to one regional style over the other? How can a musician support an organisation that makes little of maybe your friend's style of playing? Maybe the answer is that they don’t? Maybe the answer is in the fact that as I have said, thousands of musicians want no part of Comhaltas?
And these are only a few of the ongoing decisions made by Comhaltas which would appear to be about power for power sake. A need to control for the sake of feeling empowered? All one has to do is read the accounts of what happened in the early days of what is now known as the Willie Clancy week to see power grabbing mind set by certain factions within Comhaltas. A mind set that says to the effect that "we are the main men, we know what is best and we are the righteous owners and guardians of the music" How else could one explain their actions? And whilst it has been understandably and correctly argued here and in other places that there are many people in Comhaltas who do great - voluntary or lowly paid - work, these same people need to acknowledge that by staying quiet on these matters, they are in fact enabling this behaviour to continue.
"banjocp" makes the point on another thread that "the perpetual harping on of those, particularly ex-members or those who were never members is getting a little hard to take" Does he not realise that the content of the “harping on” is the very reason why these people are ex members or non members? Is it not understand that there is a reasons why many thousands of musicians do not want to belong to or have moved away from Comhaltas? Especially when considers that membership is not an expensive process and when one considers the normally very strong sense of pride and sense of nationalism that can come with the playing of this music? Who knows?
But one thing can be clear here and that is that the general music playing population are quite uninterested in Comhaltas, they don't care if HQ in Belgrave Sq is turned into a brothel; they simply don't care. But leave what has always organically survived alone. And don't be surprised when all the so called ex members express their anger at certain behaviours, because there is a general believe that the behaviour of Comhaltas can at times, be reprehensible. That loads of members work hard at providing classes is no excuse. And maybe in this latest incident, certain members of the Clontarf branch are all wrong? Maybe? But if the pattern so far is to believed then it would appear that there is no smoke without fire. Are all those commentators, sometimes separated by continents, all psychotic in their beliefs that Comhaltas HQ has once again " disgraced itself"? Are the Glackins and The O'Brien families to name a few, also mistaken in their support? How come we are all wrong? Is this a case of "all out of step except my Johnny”?
On the subject of IMRO and" that "incident(which Harry Bradley amongst others have written so clearly on in other threads), if Labhras O'Murchu had/has his way, in conjunction with IMRO, we will soon go the route of Italy. Where the publicans have to pay for license to have a session. Where the musicians have to submit a list of tunes played so that royalties can be imposed. If for example you say you played Danny Ab's slide then money has to be coughed up for Danny. That Danny never gets it is neither here nor there! Is this an exaggeration? I think not. He has already shown his willingness give and take monies so that Comhaltas can have control over the music. Himself and IMRO just haven't found a way to complete that control yet.
For example, how can IMRO take money from the fella playing the radio in his workshop, monies that are intended for those artists performing on the airwaves, and give it to Comhaltas? If all monies taken belong to those who music is played, how can Comhaltas be given an annual fee whilst at the same time complain about the lack of Trad music played on the airwaves! If jigs and reels (excepting the newly composed) cannot be levied, how can Comhaltas be given money? How can Comhaltas, an organisation that uses Catholicism as a base for it's spiritual beliefs (see past involvement in issues like abortion and divorce) accept this money?
Perhaps when Comhaltas as an organisation are seen to route out and rid themselves of the many behaviours that appear to be and are contrary to the real spirit of the music, then there might not be so many ex members/ non members seemingly skulking around the corner with apparently so little to do, that they "hop off " Comhaltas just for the fun of it?
Finally this writer has to wonder how it is that when the dodgy stuff in Comhaltas surfaces, the name of Labhras O'Murchu is never far away. And how that the many well-known and respected figures in music scene always seem to "pick on him" when these same issues arise? Is there some one or are there many persons hiding behind Labhras and using him as a patsy? Does he get the blame for the behaviour of others?
I think that as Bannerman suggests,we all want to get on with the music. And all around Ireland, week in week out, we do- in the form of sessions and summer schools- all away from the eyes of Comhaltas.How long will that go on? Because the past is not past- it is here, very much in the present
The great and good of tradional music turned out on friday night to lend support to the dissolved cluain tarbh branch.
What a night's music and what good company!
Good to see members of so many other CCE branches turn up, people travelled from Newry Armagh Dundalk Meath Kildare Wicklow not to mention the other Dublin branches.
Nights like this are what Comhaltas should be about!
The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
The following is a link to provide information about the Dissolution of Cluain Tarbh.
http://www.cluaintarbh.net
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Wild Rover
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
That's awful! Can they take any legal action on this?
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by jasonb
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
It's way past time for legal action. A Coup d'Etat is in order.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Some years back I attended a concert to raise money for the branch at the National Concert Hall. Altan were top of the bill (Mark Kelly is, I believe, a long-standing member of the branch).
The first half of the concert featured young musicians and dancers from the Clontarf branch and the standard of both categories was uniformally high - in fact, much better than you'd get at one of Larry Murphy's cabaret evenings in Cashel.
This is CCÉ money-grubbing at its very worst. Is there anything that those of us from outside the area can do to support Clontarf in its campaign?
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
This is indeed a very serious matter, but sometimes a little laughter doesn't go amiss. Those of you interested in fiction will find a familiar character about half-way through this:
http://homepage.eircom.net/~portlaoisepics/sausages.htm
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by molaoch
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
This was covered in some detail again today on public radio : RTE1, Liveline 1345-1500. Several committee members of the Clontarf branch phoned in and Joe Duffy was able to deliver the news that they were officially dissolved - apparently CCE HQ sent the letter to RTE but not to the Clontarf branch!!
It also emerged that CCE HQ have set up a new Clontarf branch with a self appointed puppet committee. This was done at a closed and private meeting over last weekend!! The lack of democracy and procedure is just breathakingly arrogant.
It was reported that there was a meeting of the Clontarf branch (the old legitimate one!) last night and over 100 people turned up. It is one of the largest CCE groups. The atmosphere at this was said to be one of disgust and they have vowed to keep the old branch going.
Several musicians rang in their support and there was an appeal for ALL traditional musicians and particularly those involved in other CCE branches to campaign for the reinstatment of the Clontarf branch and for an overall of CCE HQ.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
The point being that if CCE HQ can just dissolve one of the largest and most successful branches because they don't like what they've said or done - then what hope for other branches.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Guys -- a little calmness, please. This is a complicated and difficult situation, and the play-by-play posted on Clontarf's website is not an accurate portrayal of the chain of events. Before flying off the handle, it might make sense to ask yourselves whether this set of facts as presented make any sense ....
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
And all this from people who just like playing a few tunes together. Heard the whole sad story on said radio show earlier in the week and again today. A case of.... Power corrupts but absolute power etc etc.......This could end up on the 'Fights after a Session' thread yet.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
B, I've read this in several places now. If this is not what is actually happening, what is? I am very open to hearing other sides of this. It sounds pretty bad. Please enlighten us with any information you may have that we do not.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by jasonb
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
OK, I can't really comment on what's happened here, not because I've been sworn to secrecy or anything but because it would be inappropriate to do so while this is being worked out. Which is why we haven't been making public statements, as far as I know - I believe the feeling is that it would be irresponsible. I'm not saying it's not a serious thing: it is. Or that there isn't a lot of money involved: there is. But the VAT refund is a red herring, and there's no power-grab going on.
As has been noted several times, the coverage in the press on this issue has been one-sided. The callers to Duffy and so forth were all on one side, with a particular set of interests. And even Duffy sounded rather incredulous that this could be the whole story. It just doesn't make any sense.
The Clontarf branch is one of the most vibrant and successful branches of Comhaltas. They have an excellent teaching programme, they have developed a world-class tour group, and they initiated the Clasac theatre project in part as a way to create a positive home for the traditional arts in Dublin. They've spent a dozen years trying to make it happen.
And when the dust settles, I hope that's exactly what we'll have: a strong and vibrant branch, a new theatre and a successful venue both for the Clontarf branch and for music teaching in north Dublin. That's what we're all hoping and working for, in Head Office, in the ardchomhairle and in Clontarf.
I'm just saying: the group of people who created the problem are yelling, loudly. The group that's trying to fix the problem hasn't spoken yet.
(With this post, as with most things, I'm not speaking for Comhaltas policy -- I'm on vacation in the Aran Islands at the moment and seeing things second-hand. But this dust-up has been heading toward us for more than just a few months, and I'm aware of the issues involved.)
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I notice b that your post is about " we" So is that "we" as in Comhaltas Headquarters? How is it that is inappropiate to comment whilst "it is being worked out" when from what I see and hear , nothing is being worked out to include those in Clontarf branch !! If you know enough to be telling us to calm down, then perhaps you might answer this - Was there or not a directive from Headquarters to forward the monies in question?
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
My point was merely that the full story isn't out there in the media, or elsewhere in the public domain. When I say "we haven't been making public statements" I mean we as in Comhaltas, as in the organisation that I'm a paid-up member of. I'm not on the Ardchomhairle of Comhaltas, I'm not an elected official of the organisation, and I don't speak for Comhaltas.
There's no point asking me direct questions about what's happened at the last few meetings, because I wasn't there. I'm just aware of some issues that have been fermenting for a long time now, and have suddenly exploded. I don't know what "monies in question" you mean, and I have no knowledge of "directives from Headquarters." Note that I wasn't offering to say definitively exactly what's occurred, especially in the last couple of weeks. But I do know that what people are fighting about right now is not a VAT refund, which was an issue that came up only after the real fissure. Even Clontarf's summary makes it clear that the VAT refund can't be the real problem - it came later in the process.
I'm just saying. As someone who knows some of the history of this issue, there are things being worked on, and of course everyone wants the members of the Clontarf branch involved. Clontarf does great stuff. There's just a lot of mis-information that's being tossed around at the moment in a rather breathtaking way.
I'm only suggesting that it makes sense to consider carefully what makes sense, and what's consistent in people's positions.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I dont understand the need to have meetings behind closed doors. Or that too simple a view?
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I'm not sure which meeting you're referring to - the Comhaltas Ardchomhairle meetings recently? The Cluain Tarbh AGM? The more recent meeting to discuss the creation of a new branch? In any case, most organisations (like the GAA, whose governing structures Comhaltas is modelled on) wouldn't generally make all meetings open to the public. The matters discussed would generally impinge on legal issues that probably don't belong in the public domain.
But the procedures and democracy around the governing of Comhaltas are fairly clear. Branches elect representatives to county boards, who elect representatives to provincial councils, who elect representatives to the Ardchomhairle, same as the GAA. There's also an annual congress for representatives at all levels to meet and decide issues, elect officers and so forth. All very standard structures. To say that "head office" makes decisions in a non-democratic way is a bit disingenuous -- it's an elected council of representatives (quite interesting and well-meaning folks, for the most part) who set policy for the organisation as a whole.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I read on mudcat something vague about a disagreement over what constitutes traditional music for performance at the venue, but that doesn't quite seem to justify closing the branch and seizing its new very expensive facility. I also read about O'Murchu allegedly dissolving a branch in London in the 70s for not contributing to a (presumably his?) political fund.
B, everything certainly is not clear, but the situation looks pretty shady on CCE HQ's part.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by jasonb
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Well I think, and I say this with over thirty years of experience of watching Comhaltas "in action", that what does make sense is to consider carefully the political record of Comhaltas on matters such as their deal with IMRO. I see on the 12 th March 2007, you posted "yesterday in the office in Comhaltas". So hardly JUST a paid up member then? And even less likely to be unbiased?
Whatever Clontarf may or may not have done to upset the great one(because you can be sure that the ordinary joe bloggs didn't initiate this repossession carry on, this has all the marks of the great one's actions), this building does not belong to Comhaltas as an organisation, it belongs to the members of Clontarf, who were running classes in an old falling down building in Essex Street in Dublin long before Larry and his big cushy office in Monkstown arrived, and have since worked hard as a branch to build itself up. As I said on another discussion, why not call out to Monkstown any night of the week and see the kids and the teachers stuck up in cold store rooms whilst the boys sit in their plush offices.A couple of weeks ago out in headquarters the money making machine was in operation- the musicians were playing for free, the people had paid in at the door, the voluntary staff were running around organising everything and the teachers and kids were frozen to the bone.It's no wonder people want their own building.
You say " when the dust settles, I hope that's exactly what we'll have". Here we go again- the royal we. Can't you just see the greedy arm stretching out !!
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
another disgraceful move by CCE.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by musical soul
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Your position B, is very strange. You can't on the one hand complain that the issue is being dealt with unevenly - that only one side is being presented when CCE clearly will not put out spokespeople or give their side of the arguement. Joe Duffy stated very clearly yesterday that he had invited Labras O'Murchu or reps of CCE to give their side of the story but CCE refused.
What we did hear was the ordinary members of the Clontarf branch and what they said reflected very badly on CCE.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Hussar, my position is perfectly consistent: I'm a staffer at head office, also a member of my branch, also a musician. I have no personal interest in the Clasac mess one way or the other, and no authority in this area. While I personally would strongly wish that the Comhaltas leadership would get out there with their position, I simply pointed out that there has been silence thus far. Meaning that only one side has been heard, and the callers to Joe Duffy aren't representative of the whole issue. And silence does not equal skulduggery.
I also suspect that the members of the Clontarf branch have not been presented with accurate information by their own leadership, but again, I haven't been at branch meetings, and it's not something I can state with any authority.
I'm not unbiased, of course -- I'm quite committed to Comhaltas and to what it stands for, and on balance I think that Comhaltas is a worthwhile cause with which to be associated. I've made my own career choices accordingly, choosing to be closer to the work that gets done (and taking a huge pay cut in the process) in hopes of fostering the spirit of volunteerism present in active branches like Clontarf.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
B I THINK YOU PROTEST TOO MUCH AND ARE VERY QUICK TO JUMP TO THE DEFENCE OF COMHALTAS.
WHAT THEY HAVE DONE HERE IS WRONG. PLAIN AND SIMPLE AND THERE IS NO JUSTIFICATION FOR THEIR BEHAVIOUR.
its very dishearting. I feel if it wasn't for comhaltas then alot of musicians would have not been introduced to music however their behaviour in this money grabbing matter is unacceptable.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by musical soul
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
"I've made my own career choices accordingly, choosing to be closer to the work that gets done (and taking a huge pay cut in the process) in hopes of fostering the spirit of volunteerism present in active branches like Clontarf."
Well fair dues to ye, b and right on.
I suppose the problem can be that 'conservative' organisations like Comhaltas, the GAA, the church! often get caught doing exactly the opposite to their supposed mission. They get caught up in legalities and personalities and end up cutting off their noses to spite their faces.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
So, the real question is who gets 'control' and the 'credit' for the creation of Clasac?
What would have happened if the branch would have 'prosecuted' over the illegal handling of VAT? Support or abandonment by CCE HQ (they broke the Law)?
Is there a 'real' branch of Cluain T? If so, which one?
b, by his own admission (no authority, non-presence at meetings) as having spoken less than candidly as to his position notwithstanding the self-righteous attitude about giving up career/income, noble objectives etc. has destroyed his credibility and integrity.
What would the founders of CCE have thought of this mess and the people involved?
In England there is a joke'correspondant' to the national daily newspapers, I therefore sign my self off at this time as
Disgusted, Tunbridge Wells
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by john knoss
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I can accept there is imbalance as far as what is being freely offered with regards to this issue, but, it is the sign of poor organization when that 'public' organization lacks the intelligence to be open and answerable with regards to their side of this very public issue. I can also understand when such neglect of members and the public interest causes people to assume this is a sign of repression and tyranny. Does CCE think it is always in the right, unquestionably, do they see no need to reply to the growing unrest and request for accountability? Is their side of this issue so indefensable that they are speechless? It is a public non-profit organization. It's not a private family run business, not a dictatorhip, is it? If it wants to be other than public, other than a membership run non-profit organization, if it truly seeks to not be answerable to its members ~ then it should give up its non-profit status and incorporate, go fully commercial, or become a political party, a thiefdom of an unelected self-interested, self-promoting oligarchy... At the moment, keeping shtrum does nothing for the argument that they are democratic and accountable... There is no excuse that can rightly support such consistent ignorance and neglect toward their membership, the public and the traditions they profess to be concerned with...
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Right then 'c' lets see how long you can hold your breath.....
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by john knoss
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
That's fighting talk, c .... if there is real discontent amongst the membership as a whole, then it's time for people to stand up and express that. After all, 'the split' is a common enough feature of Irish public life!
Personally, I don't care too much one way or another. I'm happy to acknowledge the work of CCE over several decades but I'm not a member and I wasn't impressed with my contacts with the organisation in the past. Too much emphasis on preparing for Fleadheanna for our children's liking - that seemed to be the 'be and end all'.
At the end of the day, there's lots of Irish trad. music culture that has no connection to CCE.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
First of all so you all know where I am coming from - I am a non-executive member of Cluain Tarbh
B. makes a number of assertions that must be answered:
1. The transfer of the VAT refund is more than a red herring! The reason the branch was dissolved was that they did not comply with an instruction to illegally transfer a VAT refund to the Comhaltas account.
2. There is a "power-grab" going on! The mechanism by which this is to be achieved is to "reconstitute" the branch with an unelected and unrepresentative executive committee.
A few words about this "committee":
- This committee was self appointed at a private meeting which excluded 90% of the current branch membership.
- The committee is so unrepresentative that they would be unknown to most of the membership. I myself despite being a member for many years do not know at least two members of this "committee".
- Membership is to be accorded to "members who are competitors for the Dublin County Fleadh Cheoil", i.e. children. No mention is made of the current senior members i.e. those entitled to vote.
- Several of the members have a direct vested interest in the control and running of the new centre.
3. There have been two EGMs and two other meetings of the entire branch. Not only have the membership been presented with the current committee's side they have also been presented with the other side. Labhras O Murchu and several other members of the Buanchoiste addressed the members and failed to convince a single person other than the core who established the other "committee".
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by An Rogaire Dubh
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Perhaps it was a mistake for me to wade in here - I simply felt that those getting the news only on the radio and other public sources should know that there are other things going on here, which I'm (still) not going to get into. So I'm going to go offline for the weekend and enjoy some sessions.
I also think that the round condemnation of the new committee is premature - there is hardly even an organisation here to protest against. As far as I know any group of 5 adults is entitled to get together and apply for membership as a Comhaltas branch. I believe that process is ongoing in this case, and I think that it is rather unfair to start debating membership and other issues regarding the "new" branch.
John: I take criticisms of my integrity and credibility extremely seriously. I have spoken here candidly and as fully as the current situation will allow, though not specifically on behalf of my employer. Anyone who knows me will confirm that I hold my word to be quite a serious thing, not lightly given. If you have any evidence to suggest that I have broken a trust or spoken wrongly, I would appreciate it if you could let me know. I'll be back online on Monday evening.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
alright b...since u have d inside track...tell us a few things,on the cluain tarbh website i saw d handout 2 d county board,is it true that they did not hear or consider d story from cluain tarbh,or were they always guilty??how many were on d panel 4 deciding 2 suspend d branch?was there more then a couple?mairg,usaideann se iomhanna aille.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by smugli
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
b;
If I might refer you back to the discussion posted on the 13th March by bullwell, you will note that I suggested then that you were putting yourself in an awkward position; also other comments agreeing with your assessment of the matter being a bit more complicated.
My criticisms of you integrity and credibility stem from the lack of information you provided regarding your position within the organisation, your ability to 'comment' on the matter whether officially or as a private individual and the source of your information. This has only today become clear and you would, in my opinion, have done better to say at the outset what your position within that organisation was.
Whether you have either broken a trust or spoken wrongly is impossible for me to say; CCE HQ ain't helping matters are they? I will also repeat, now, my request that CCE HQ make a proper statement as the comments at the moment are so one-sided.
My impression of your integrity and credibility stems from your reticence to say who or what you are at CCE, it has only become apparent in dribs and drabs through today. I take no pleasure in criticising you but perhaps this was a mistake on your part to wade in to these particularly (at the moment) murky waters. Nobody is perfect including me.
Nobody is coming out of this affair with any credit at the moment as I see it, Clontarf, CCE, me or your good self.
What a mess....
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by john knoss
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I am uncomfortable with only one perspective on this issue, but Comhaltas is doing itself no favours by not voicing openly their side of this rediculous outcome ~ whether or not they can actually make a reasonable argument for their decisions... I don't doubt that there is more than one side to it, and that several may be equally responsible for the outcome... Whoever and whatever, it is sad...
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I have nothing to do with the organisation, but it strikes me that there is an important question that needs to be answered; is the organisation centralised and autocratic, or is each branch self-governing and independant ? This could come down to a battle in court if the branch committee chose to take it that far. Whose names are on the deeds for the property ? If it belongs to the branch ( committee ) then the constitution will answer to whether or not the central authority can impose its own rule over an individual branch. Who's got a rule book ?
It all seems a very funny business to me.
And all from a few people wanting to play some tunes together........
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Guernsey Pete
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I am a member of Comhaltas for many years now. I have worked in a voluntary capacity at grass roots level doing whever I can to help an my children have benefitted enormously by learning music at Branch level. This situation with the Clontarf Branch and HQ saddens me and as a member of Comhaltas, I had no idea that this situation was festering The Branch should NOT have been suspended. The longer the silence from Comhaltas, the greater the damage being done. B you are closer to Belgrave Sq. than I am. For C***st sake deliver the message
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by Frank_Finn
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Seems to me that the people who have their knickers in a knot about the affairs of a branch of Comhaltas and their dealings with the head Office of the organisation are not members of Comhaltas and have little time for Comhaltas. Why all the interest? Why are you so preoccupied?Have you all nothing better to do ?
The attitude of those who stoop to seemingly imply that one is not entitled to use the Gaelic form of ones name is contemptable. I understand Mr O Murchu changed his name to its Irish form by deed poll. (This has nothing to do with the Cluain Tarbh issue)
I feel John Knoss that questioning the integrity and credibility of "B" is serious stuff especially since in a recent post he had given information regarding his position in Comhaltas.
Perhaps you didnt see it . Check back!
If there were a competition for jumping to conclusions the contributers here would qualify hands down. We have heard one side of the story. Craobh Cluain Tarbh are predictably selective in the case they make. Perhaps the governing body of Comhaltas have their reasons for not debating the issue in the public arena. It would clarify matters if they gave their side however.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by Pure Drop
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Hey there. For those still interested, I'm told that Comhaltas will (finally) be putting out a press release on Tuesday with some salient facts about the Clasac mess. And in the meantime, I've had internal discussions with some of the folks involved and there's no problem with me clearing up some misinformation in this forum.
(I know I said I'd be offline 'till Monday, but I guess I couldn't resist. Sorry! It bugs me when there's bad information out there. I'm still heading right out on a bike to go see more of Inis Mor, so I won't be answering any posts today.)
So. First, some facts. The problem with the theatre is actually pretty simple. Clontarf got the project going, held fundraisers and have been pushing the project. The whole thing got delayed by the Dublin Port Tunnel, but things finally got going last year. Most of the money for construction has come through government grants, not from bank loans. The construction has run over budget by about 2 million euro. (It's not Clontarf's fault: there were problems with site clearance, with road access, with construction surveys, with environmental impact -- all sorts of cost overruns that are unfortunately typical for large building projects, especially on reclaimed land.) The problem right now is where to get the extra money to finish the building and get it open. If the project had been funded by a bank, it would probably be easy enough to get a line of credit for the rest. As it is, coming up with the money is harder.
The site itself belongs to Dublin County Council, but Comhaltas (not Clontarf) was granted a 99-year lease on the property. Because neither the branch nor the central organisation own the land, we can't borrow against it to get a bank loan. Because the branch doesn't have a line of credit with a bank, Clontarf asked Comhaltas to pick up the bill for the 2 million, or to guarantee a loan. Comhaltas said sure, but for Comhaltas to get the loan we'd have to use our buildings like the Cultúrlann as collateral. In exchange for the money, Comhaltas wanted more control over the rest of the construction project, but the branch would use the new building and have representatives on the theatre's board, as originally planned.
The building itself was always going to be vested in Comhaltas, just like the other regional resource centers such as Cois na hAbhna in Ennis or Ceolaras Coleman in Gurteen. Anyway, that's the stand-off. If Clontarf could have finished the building with the original money, there would be no problem. But unfortunately the committee got in over their heads and didn't have a way to make up the difference. Essentially, that's what the fight is about.
At the same time, the Revenue sent back a VAT refund to the branch, for reasons that are unclear. The Department of Sport and Tourism tells Comhaltas that neither Comhaltas nor the branch are entitled to the money, and an internal Revenue investigation gets under way. Under instructions from the Dept of Sport/Tourism, Comhaltas asks for the money back from Clontarf so that it can be returned back to Government. The branch's lawyer says they can't send money back through a third party, and there's a dispute there. Doesn't really matter - either the branch gives back the money directly or they give it to Comhaltas to give back -- either way, the government wants its money back that apparently shouldn't have been refunded in the first place. In neither scenario does Comhaltas keep the refund!
Anyway, Comhaltas gave the branch 5 weeks to come up with a plan for making up the 2 million, the branch didn't file anything in the time, so the branch was suspended and then, after a further period, dissolved. In both periods of time the branch never presented a plan for finding the money to get the building opened, or came up with an agreement with the ardchomhairle of Comhaltas to share responsibility for the building construction.
So that's where we are, folks. Comhaltas wants to get the building finished, and I'm hopeful that Comhaltas will get the money somewhere and get the theatre opened. A new Clontarf committee has met, composed of (I believe) three former branch chairs with something like 35 years of chairing the branch between them, two former secretaries and a former treasurer. Hardly a puppet government of unknown characters. So the new committee will try to get classes and so forth back on track and work with Comhaltas to follow through on the original plan to get the Clasac theatre operational.
There have been times when I would disagree strongly with Comhaltas' actions. Complaining about Comhaltas is both easy and fun to do, and I spend plenty of time grousing along with my colleagues when the organisation does something particularly bone-headed. But this time ain't one of 'em. I'm pretty sure that if the membership of Clontarf had been presented with the plain facts by their committee, there wouldn't currently be such bad blood.
So, like I said, I won't be able to respond today, but I'll try and clarify where possible tomorrow.
# Posted on March 23rd 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
b;
I owe you an apology.
Put simply, I'm sorry that I called into question your intergrity and credibility.
I promised myself (a long time ago) that I would not become involved in discussions that resulted in remarks of a 'personal' nature.
I also promised myself (a very long time ago) that I would never again (damn fool that I am) become involved in matters in the way Comhaltas was run and of those who run it.
b for their pains has taken a lot of stick, not just from me, for trying to put the 'other side' of case.
My final thoughts on this and then I'm done. Why it is that b has had to get permission/clearance to 'put the other side' when the whole matter should have been dealt with more finesse and authority. Why it is that CCE HQ could not have said earlier that they would be making a full statement by such and such date (avoiding all this nonsense) should provide us all with food for thought.
b, I would like to re-iterate my apologies to you, for the annoyance and distress that my comments must have caused you. I quite understand your feelings having had, in the past, my own crediblity and integrity questioned, it is unpleasant in the extreme.
It is my hope that some time in the future that we may exchange comment/discussion on other things without this episode interfering too much.
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by john knoss
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
John:
No problem. If internet flames turned into real ones, well, I guess we'd have a whole different problem with global warming. Of course I'm happy to discuss anything that comes up in future. The apology is accepted happily, with high marks for bravery and sincerity.
Anyway, there are certainly some things that Comhaltas does pretty well: teaching traditional Irish music is first among them. There are also some things that Comhaltas does quite badly, and unfortunately public relations is on that list. Getting better at the latter will take some time.
# Posted on March 24th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
B, there is still an awful lot of explaining on how Comhaltas does its business. I was at the recent Emergency General Meeting (EGM) of Clontarf which Labhras O Murchu and some of the standing ctte of the Ard Comhairle attended. The members of Clontarf were abused in an arrogant and offhand manner and presented with a resolution, which asked them to end any interest for the branch in the governance or day to day running of the clasac center. Every overture by the branch for an attempt at a joint solution were dismissed out of hand and the detailed plans drawn up on the running of the center or proposals to jointly deal with the debt were dismissed with an arrogance bordering on contempt.
No option was on the table other than handing over the Clasac project lock stock and barrel to the Ard Comhairle. The resolution put by an Ard Comhairle member (who was also a seldom seen member of the branch) was rejected by well over 90% of the packed meeting and that I believe is the real problem. An alternative resolution calling for a joint approach between the branch and the Ard Comhairle was adopted. However, I for one knew from the attitude adopted that Labhras was not interested in a cooperative approach.
Contrary to what B claims the return of the VAT refund (a refund which the branch ctte. applied for and was granted) to revenue rather than to Monkstown was the reason (pretext) for the suspension and later dissolution of the branch.
Again, there was no question of a 5-week period for Clontarf to come up with a solution to the financial shortfall. They cannot raise money without the assent of the trustees and that was not forthcoming. Is B suggesting this is a good reason to get rid of the biggest branch in Comhaltas?
The attitude displayed on the night of the EGM was reminiscent of a Stalinist politburo rather than a democratic organisation. Like most of the parents (and the young musicians) that night I was shocked by the way the branch and the hardworking parents on the committee were treated and I was not surprised that the resolution was defeated (I wonder now was it ever expected to be supported)
The explanation that b and the powers that be need to provide is why the collective punishment of the whole branch was necessary in a dispute which you have not yet provided your side of the story, what crime fits such draconian measures?
Have we moved from a Stalinist style purges to an Alice in Wonderland concept of justice, as dealt out by the Queen of Hearts ''sentence first(off with their heads)--- trial later'' we will let you know the charges when it suits, maybe on live line or when an alternative branch is up and running.
I suspect the only explanation for such measures will continue to be unattributable innuendo and rumour; There are already plenty of them circulating around the country. Whereas all Clontarf has been asking for is transparency and due process.
There will be no explanation, which will bridge the yawning gap in equivalence between the actions of Labhras and co, the collective punishment of the whole branch, and the supposed misdemeanours of its committee.
As for the committee set up in private, that is better called an attempted coup. The experience of the members of this unasked for and unelected body is irrelevant. Perhaps they have been around too long. I think there is only one person on this self-appointed body who has children who are not now adults. They certainly would not be elected by the members of Clontarf branch given their current trajectory.
The real story is I suspect rather mundane, it is about power and control with a large dollop of nepotism thrown in. Given experience of musicians and indeed Comhaltas, branches in their dealings with Labhras nepotism might be seen as part of the tradition in Comhaltas.
I would be surprised if some of the coup d’etat committee did not see themselves with jobs in the new center whereas the majority of the elected committee were I believe in favour of professional management being recruited.
The branch is asking for support from all other branches of Comhaltas and from all involved in music outside of Comhaltas. Public money is involved and this lack of transparency and accountability is damaging to all aspects of traditional music. Many musicians are wary of Comhaltas but thanks to a huge amount voluntary effort it achieves a lot for the tradition, what is needed for a critical mass of musicians and Comhaltas members to come off the fence acquaint themselves with the issue and act before irreversible damage is done.
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by puisin
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
There seems to be a big difference between what b is saying and what puisin is saying. Looking forward to the press release. But how to repair the damage that is done?
Is any centre - even an 11 million one worth this acrimony and bad blood?
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
See these 2 rules from the Comhaltas Bunreacht
county board rule 4c states
The County Board shall have the right to suspend any branch, and/or remove from office, a branch officer or officers, where it has been clearly established that the branch or officers of the branch are guilty of conduct which is deemed to be contrary to the ideals and objects of An Comhaltas, as enshrined in this Constitution, and is calculated to bring An Comhaltas into disrepute. Where a branch is suspended, the County Board shall for the time being be empowered to exercise all the functions of the said branch. A branch or officer so suspended shall have the right of appeal to the Provincial Council.
Rule 16 states
By virtue of Rule 2 Section 6 of this Constitution all property in the possession or control of a Branch is vested in the Trustees of An Comhaltas and the authority of the Branch to deal with such property is subject to the approval of the Trustees and such approval may be withdrawn by the Trustees at any time. The Branch and each member of the Branch having possession or control of such property shall be responsible for the safe delivery of such property to the Trustees if such delivery is required by the Trustees.
Was it CLEARLY established that the branch or officers of the branch were guilty of conduct which was deemed to be contrary to the ideals and objects of An Comhaltas, as enshrined in this Constitution, and is calculated to bring An Comhaltas into disrepute? Were they given the right of appeal?
On the other hand does rule 16 mean that everything belongs to HQ trustees and they can call in the chips at any time?
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
interesting to hear a fuller version of 'de facts' and that clears up the story from the Comhaltas HQ side and 'B's' explanantion seems reasonable for first 6 paragraphs. Then it jumps off the rails - according to para 3 "Clontarf asked Comhaltas to pick up the bill for the 2 million, or to guarantee a loan. Comhaltas said sure....."
But then, "Comhaltas gave the branch 5 weeks to come up with a plan for making up the 2 million, the branch didn't file anything in the time, so the branch was suspended and then, after a further period, dissolved. " !!!
Now come on, B - there's obviously been errors of judgement on all sides but the above explanation of the 'facts' doesn't really ring true.
I'm afraid it does look very likely that CCE were trying to take over the branches baby after 99% of the hard work was done.
But then, maybe the Clontarf branch got in way over their heads. Large building projects eat money these days in Ireland but I'd be looking to see who was monitoring spending on the project. Once it looked likely that additional costs were being incurred and the suggested list of culprits above would all occur early in the development, then corresponding adjustments should have been made to fittings, finishes to bring it in on budget. It is madness to expect a voluntary committee to come up with plans in a few weeks to raise 5 milllion.
If the financial controller for the project was a voluntary person, the branch committee should kick them themselves - if a professional was in charge, then sue them.
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Clontarf branch were beaten before they got started! CCE (top dogs) just want credit for all the hard work (and profit) Clontarf branch have achieved! They CAN'T do it themselves BUT want to STEAL the success of this dedicated, hard working branch, who by the way have already paid all dues asked (legally) of them by being a members branch of CCE. I was a founder member of a CCE branch still running) though I left many years ago through seeing many minor greedy little scams performed by CCE. The whole idea that got CCE on the road to promote Traditional music was accepted and backed by everyone that either started or joined a local branch. They agreed to aide by the rules CCE put forward, thinking that all dues paid by their branches were to help keep CCE afloat. But GREED has crept in (at the top) too many folk making too much money for doing nothing (most aren't even musicians)
CCE, I have totally lost all faith and respect for you!
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by boycejackie
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Hussar, I'd certainly agree that the committee got in over their heads. The finances were overseen by a competent and nice guy, but nonetheless a volunteer member of the committee. Mixed-use building projects are hard to do, and insanely complex to manage. The problems with the branch weren't that they went over-budget, but that they stalled and stonewalled rather than coming up with a constructive solution. They could have established a line-of-credit with a bank, or formed the board into a separate non-profit, or worked on big-ticket named contributors, or a few things other than just ignore the mounting costs.
We did the best we could on cutting back - I remember going over each curtain, each chair, each light, each microphone, trying to find places to cut back on fittings. The plan is to open with only a fraction of the technical capability - the recording studio, for example, will start out life unfitted altogether. But it's been tough to find enough things to remove, with the sums so large.
And for both Hussar and Eoin, I'd question a little what it is that Comhaltas is supposed to have stolen or taken over: a site that was already leased to Comhaltas (not to the branch), a building already vested in Comhaltas, a construction project already funded through subventions of Comhaltas funding, a project with enthusiastic and time-consuming support from Comhaltas head office staff? Clontarf has done incredible things to get the project off the ground, get the site donated, get the clearances -- all the great stuff that they've done on this project. But this isn't a project that could be pulled off in isolation, and perhaps it's best that it was a partnership from the start.
Which is why when the committee started breaking promises to pay, the creditors called HQ.
And Eoin, I'm not sure who you think is so greedy here -- you really think there's any real money to be made as an organisation representing amateur traditional musicians? I can assure you, the bare handful of full-time Comhaltas staff are paid below the civil service scale, for example. Head office staffers work insane hours for little pay. Because we *are* musicians, and we believe in what we do.
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Come on Breandan, as long as Comhaltas is extremely secretive about it's finances I don not buy into the 'poor traditional musicians organisation'. There are millions in grant money from public funds, national lottery etc going into the organisation.
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I quote the late Tom Munnelly's post to the IrTrad mailing list from 6 dec 2002:
'Those of you in Ireland take a look at the current Phoenix magazine which runs an extensive profile of the Senator. Whereas they establish that there were outgoings of 550,000 euro for wages, pension, travel etc, they say that "the biggest single element here would be O/ Murchu's salary although the senator refused to elucidate ... on the amount he takes out of his organisation every year." Add that to his senator's salary and expenses and its nice work if you can get it.
Perhaps of even more interest to the CCE faithful who send monies to Monkstown is the passage "the organisation is a very successful one and although the accounts are not published, (Phoenix) can reveal that there were accumulated PROFITS (my emphasis) of 1.5 MILLION euro at the end of last year.'
No accounts have ever been published to disprove this information.
'No real money' you said?
# Posted on March 25th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Kilfarboy, I seem to remember having this discussion with you before.
And how many times are you going to bring that Phoenix article into evidence? You realise that it's a *satirical* magazine?
Anyway, there are millions, but for the last few years those "millions" included a whole bunch of money designated for Clasaċ specifically as part of Comhaltas' grant from Sport & Tourism. Most of those millions are being spent by guys with hard hats and high-visibility vests on a building site in North Dublin, not by an imagined class of the "trad elite" sitting in Monkstown. Much of the remaining travel and expenses cover not just Senator Ó Murchú but also thousands of examiners and adjudicators for Comhaltas exams and competitions.
Anyone who gets into this business for personal gain will be in for a pretty serious disappointment. As to secrecy, sure, as far as I know our books aren't open to the public. Um, can you think of any organisations that publish such information? Finances *are* discusses at the annual Congress in May, which is composed of hundreds of representatives from the branch, county and provincial levels.
But the total annual budget of Comhaltas is still a small fraction of the budgets for individual projects that I've managed in the past, so perhaps it's my perspective that's off.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Yes b, it is your perspective that is off- by a long way. And sure isn't that the way of it when you join an organisation like Comhaltas and more importantly isn't that the best way to have you- Emperor's New Clothes and all that. Whilst I respect your right to work for whatever wage you see fit, do you not think it a little strange that according to you ,the staff are working at less than civil service rates( not that means badly paid) whilst the man at the top is being well paid. Why should you have to work at less than what you consider is a good rate? Is everybody and I mean everybody, at Comhaltas working for less..? And what gives you the idea that the Irish Trad music needs sacrifices like that? It is well alive? Why all the melodrama..we "are" musicians and believe in what we do!! And so ! What do you do that requires you all to work insanely long hours? Why can't you be treated properly, paid a decent wage and proper hours? I certainly have no time for an organisation that treats their staff in such a fashion. And of course if they treat their staff like so, well who else will they treat badly?
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Concertina, I was discussing what's been called a "top-heavy" and "greedy" organisation, and making the point that, whatever else is going on, those in the much-discussed "Comhaltas HQ" surely aren't in it for the money.
I guess for me personally, I work long hours because I used to do this work as a volunteer for Comhaltas whenever I got the chance, and now that I have the chance to do it full-time I consider it a privilege to serve. I do have my own issues with pay scale and staffing - I personally think that to accomplish our goals properly Comhaltas should expand considerably in the areas of full-time staff and infrastructure, more along the lines of the GAA. I'd certainly feel less pressure to work late if there was some back-up for the projects that I work on. No-one tells me to work late, but at the same time I do what I have to in order to succeed in my work.
Trad does require sacrifice, I've found: it requires dedication and practice time that perhaps we'd like to spend with our families; it requires pursuing a genre of music that will probably never put you much over the break-even point for gigs; it involves buying into an entire aesthetic of co-operative rather than competitive cultural expression that I find both wholesome and refreshing. I suppose we all accept these trade-offs in return for the joy it brings.
Like other non-profit pursuits, working for ITM can be a demanding thing to do. Rewarding, though: At the moment, I wouldn't want to do anything else. And sure, I put in more time than I strictly need to, for the same reasons that I also spend spare time with my own branch, and pay my dues as a member. Because it's worth doing.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
'Um, can you think of any organisations that publish such information?'
Well, I am a member of Na Piobairi Uilleann which as far as I remember publishes it's financial, report annually.
Yes we had this discussion before, I keep mentioning the Phoenix article as long as, just as I said before, what it put forward isn't disproved by any information to the contrary from CCE and as long as you, along the same lines, keep saying there's no 'real' money in Comhaltas.
Last time you came up with that argument was just about on the day CCE in Clare received a grant of over 3 million to pour into Cois na bAbhna. You dismissed that as 'simply a bit of money to do much needed renovations on the building' which indeed it was, and a fine job they made of it too, but never the less, it's real money and it makes that the 'poor organisation' argument doesn't wash. If you think it's silly money not worth discussing, maybe it is indeed your perspective that's off.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Where is the press that Comhaltas were due to issue yesterday, Tuesday. Has anyone seen it?
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I'm afraid that the press release was delayed - most of the leadership are in transit over to the North American convention. I believe it should be sorted out today.
And kilfarboy, I've never said that Comhaltas doesn't both ask for and receive millions of euros in government grants. It mostly goes into capital construction and renovation, as you said. My point was (and is) that there aren't any people getting rich by doing this. The question comes up frequently: "Where do all those millions go? People must be overpaid! There must be too many staff!" And that isn't the case. The money goes mostly to capital projects, which is a good thing. And to travel, and to concert tours, and to the SCT examiners, and to all sorts of people who are doing lots of good stuff. It doesn't sit at the top in some slush fund for senior staff.
My point was not that there's no 'real' money involved, just that what we have is not actually that much to run an organisation of this scope.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
WHAT!!!! "most of the leadership are in transit over to the North American convention."
Sounds like a UN delegation trip. Can the North Americans not hold their own convention without most of the leadership attending? How much is this going to cost? Bet they dont dissolve any branches over there.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Knight, come on. Comhaltas is a pretty small organisation - by "leadership" I mean a couple of people -- they just happen to be the people who need to sign off on a press release. The North American Comhaltas committee have asked Senator Ó Murchú and some others to speak. And they fly coach.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
If I have understood this correctly B seems to suggest that the branch has gone off on a bit of a lark, run up enormous debts and got the organisation into trouble. But if that were the case that alone would be a good enough reason to call for the resignation of Labhras O Murchu because it suggests that he cannot manage the organisation. No, the truth is that HQ was involved in every step along the way.
It had always been foreseen that there would be a requirement for borrowings to supplement the public funding. A loan had been successfully negotiated and agreed with the bank. All that was required was a guarantee to be given by Comhaltas. As all assets are vested in Comhaltas they are the only entity that can give such a guarantee. The branch owns nothing!
Whatever the merits of the arguments one thing is certain. This should NEVER have ended in the dissolution of the branch. This branch is a massive teaching, advocacy and promotional resource for traditional music for Dublin and beyond. This is all now put at risk!
Regarding the dissolution B is correct on thing - the issue of the VAT refund is a "red herring". There was I arguing above that we were dissolved because we didn't comply with an instruction to transfer a VAT refund to the Comhaltas account. The reason I thought that was that they wrote to tell us that we would be dissolved if we didn't do so. Yesterday I received a letter officially informing me of the dissolution. And guess what! It wasn't because of the transfer of theVAT refund. Presumably because, as we pointed out, that would have been illegal! So yesterday's reason for dissolution is today's 'red herring'. Which confirms my feeling that tthere was a determination to dissolve us regardless.
Having read the letter I have to confess that I am confused as to the actual reason this time. Various suggestions are proffered but I am at a loss as to the specific reason. The letter is not very clear.
What we want is very modest! We want our branch back with our right to democratically elect the officers of our choosing. Regarding Clasac we have no proprietorial ambitions. We don't own it and never will. All we want is that our work over the years is reflected by the implementation the agreement giving us the right to put five branch members on a twelve person board.
Still all this rancour is not without its lighter moments. Yesterday along with the notification of dissolution I got note with an attached document. The attached document, which I never saw before, was a letter complaining about how Labhras O Murchu has dealt with these matters. Its tone was perhaps a little intemperate but the content wasn't too far off the mark in my opinion. Anyway the note informed me that this document had been 'circulated' by someone from the branch and would be given to the Gardai (police). But the only time I got to see the document in question was when Comhaltas sent to me. Dirty tricks dept or what? Anyway if the Gardai call to my door I am going to tell them that the document was 'circulated' to me by the Ard Runai (general secretary) of Comhaltas!
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by An Rogaire Dubh
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
As I recall, Dubh, the original agreement was for the branch to appoint two members to the board of Clasaċ, not five. I believe that was worked out years ago, long before any of this current dispute arose. I don't know of any reason why that won't be the case, as soon as the board is formulated.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I'm still scratching my head trying to figure out why the branch was kicked out. It looks as if this was a joint project from the start with CCE HQ and the Clontarf branch.
B says above ''already leased to Comhaltas (not to the branch), a building already vested in Comhaltas, a construction project already funded through subventions of Comhaltas funding, a project with enthusiastic and time-consuming support from Comhaltas head office staff? Clontarf has done incredible things to get the project off the ground, get the site donated, get the clearances -- all the great stuff that they've done on this project. But this isn't a project that could be pulled off in isolation, and perhaps it's best that it was a partnership from the start.
Which is why when the committee started breaking promises to pay, the creditors called HQ.''
Well, why wouldn't they - any creditors would view the local branch and CCE HQ as one and the same.
So what's all this business about ''Comhaltas gave the branch 5 weeks to come up with a plan for making up the 2 million, the branch didn't file anything in the time, so the branch was suspended and then, after a further period, dissolved''
That's what doesn't make sense - yous are one and the same.
An Rogaire says ''A loan had been successfully negotiated and agreed with the bank. All that was required was a guarantee to be given by Comhaltas''
So it reads that the local branch did have a plan but CCE HQ wan't a different plan and when the local group wouldn't agree ... zap!
Great way to run things!!!!
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by the wounded hussar
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Hussar, I think you've summarised the problem pretty well; not as an illegal "taking" but rather as a disagreement over capital investment structuring. Admittedly, less sexy than the idea that Comhaltas inexplicably wanted to steal children's instruments ....
I refer you to my earlier post:
"Because the branch doesn't have a line of credit with a bank, Clontarf asked Comhaltas to pick up the bill for the 2 million, or to guarantee a loan. Comhaltas said sure, but for Comhaltas to get the loan we'd have to use our buildings like the Cultúrlann as collateral. In exchange for the money, Comhaltas wanted more control over the rest of the construction project, but the branch would use the new building and have representatives on the theatre's board, as originally planned."
To guarantee a bank loan and potentially put other Comhaltas buildings on the line, Comhaltas needed the project to be nationally run. Which isn't the way the project was originally envisaged, but if Comhaltas is going to put that loan guarantee out there (and not set a precedent for automatically guaranteeing loans for any project of any branch in future), there needed to be changes in the operational structure of the committee. This is serious stuff.
The committee was stubborn: they wanted to retain complete control over all aspects of money being spent, but simply get Comhaltas to put up the Cultúrlann as collateral for a loan to the committee with nothing in return. I'm not even sure the trustees of Comhaltas would be allowed to take such a step without breaching their own fiduciary duty to the organisation.
With the committee not budging, the number of options available to both parties went down considerably. With the project in potential jeopardy and vendors making noises in the press, Comhaltas tried one last time to reach an agreement with the committee. What happened after that failed is extremely unfortunate, but may have the eventual effect of saving the project.
I don't mean at all to sound unsympathetic to the members of Clontarf; I can only imagine how wrenching it is to have such apparently arbitrary power wielded from the sky, creating fear and uncertainty around what should be the greatest triumph of an already wildly successful branch. If my own branch were taken away for whatever reason, I'd be incredibly angry and upset. I really do sympathise.
To a certain extent, yes, many people were hurt because of the actions of a few, which always seems arbitrary and unfair. Unfortunately, the few are the elected representatives of the many, and sometimes the world seems to work like that. I'm really hoping that branch of Clontarf can re-form itself quickly, and that those who wish to remain affiliated with Comhaltas will be able to find, once again, a vibrant and strong local branch.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I think that firstly Brendan is quite entitled to work long hours for a less pay if that is what he wishes to do. And like others here, I once too did my time in the trenches, working on behalf of a branch I helped form. But like others I ran from it eventually angered by what I saw.
But like in a lot of organisations where there are those who are devoted to a pastime/hobby/activity, there are people who can be easily exploited by those "at the top".An example of which could be the horse industry ,where those who are mad to be with horses, work for little or no pay in return for access to their chosen devotion. And there is nothing wrong with this, if those at the top weren't on a different pay scale completely. And whereas all of this going on in a private company is bad enough, when it goes on in an organisation subsidised by tax payers money, it's not so good.
And in keeping with the arrogance of certain right wing establishments with close connections to the government, they see themselves above questioning and beyond accountability. Hence the lack of a statement. And when one was due to be issued, where are the leaders? In America ! Doing what exactly?? Surely to be accountable where such a serious accusation was being levelled, where there was such a furore, might be more important than all those who can sign off a statement being away. How many went for gawds sake? And why? Ah we won't go there. And in this day and age of telecommunications, couldn't they have signed off in America?
But in a strange way, the extra information that Brendan gave added more credence to the perception of the rot at the higher levels in Comhaltas. Even by Comhaltas standards, this whole business had seemed strange. But as Wounded said, it all is fairly clear that there was hidden agenda here.Five weeks to come up with 2 mill...mmmmm I don't think so??? And as rogaire said, why dissolve what apparently is the biggest branch in the country and must be one of the longest in existence as well. Nah, it stinks.
But it has to be said, that if this was new behaviour by Comhaltas, then one might be more inclined to look for some extenuating evidence and maybe be more inclined to give the benefit of the doubt. But all of this is quite in keeping with how they manage their affairs. Nothing new here. Dog don't change his spots.
# Posted on March 26th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Liveline and The Artists formerly known as Clontarf
I am a member of CCE fully aware of it's shortcomings and prepared to do my bit to change from within rather than sit on the outside throwing stones, or, on the fence, getting splinters and blaming someone else. The recent Liveline Programmes have saddened me more than a little
The following observations should be noted
1) Labhras O Murchu is not President of CCE nor has he been for years. The Ard Comhairle is elected.
2)Clontarf, undissolved, were not the biggest Branch in the World, Ireland , Dublin and often even the Northside.
3)Somebody claimed a Vat refund and then gave it back Regardless of "Expert Advice", it strikes me as strange that if the rebate was something they were entitled to that they should have handed back their "own" money. secondly how come an employee of the Revenue Commissioners was discussing Tax matters on the National Airwaves?
4) The same genius then claimed that had it not been for the actions of the big bullies on the Ard Comhairle, Clasach would have been opened on St Patricks weekend. Without sewers , water or licences that would have been lovely.
5) Nobody mentioned refusing kids Fleadh Applications
6) Eleven million . Mostly from the Arts Council and their own fundraising.
Ill-informed twaddle Hardly surprising that nobody commented on Liveline Mark 1 Not one word of truth or sense
Liveline 2 however raised some very interesting points.
1) Why , when given an instruction with a specific timeframe was there such a kerfuffle when they did not receive letters officially dissolving the Branch. One month is one month lads get real and one month is what you got.
2)Why whinge about some members forming a Branch ,there was a facility in the instruction from the Ard Comhairle to allow for reinstatement. Did anybody apply ? Did anybody want to?
3) Why shouldn't people whose Branch has been dissolved apply to form another branch ?
4)Why should it matter that the people ,who did form a new Branch , are not parents of Children receiving lessons. It is a Comhaltas Branch not a Music School It is in no small part due to the experience and hard work of the individuals concerned that Craobh Cluain Tarbh enjoyed for so long such a high regard.
5) What benefit could anybody have possibly derived from speaking ill of those who at all times have given their all for Clontarf CCE.? Virtually every penny raised for their Teach Cheoil was raised on their efforts. It is important to remember that Comhaltas is about Tradition. That may well make us somewhat conservative but if we are to protect and foster our traditions it is to those that went before that we should be taking our leadership and not aspiring to be a sterile academic forum where fanciful theories abound and friendships become matters of political expediency.
The issues Re Clontarf V CCE Ard Comhairle could have probably been handled differently but I don't think the unease felt by some in Clontarf could have been assuaged .
Clontarf Branch have long aspired to having their own Teach Cheoil and fundraised over a decade to finance it. Several setbacks later and almost all the monies gone they secured a lease on a site (Vested in CCE and not Clontarf) Political funding was promised that would have had to be matched I'm sure, if it was to be drawn down ,Bertie gives nothing away that easy. There it would still be today were it not for the Funding That Sen O Murchu negotiated with the government
Capital Grants became available a few years ago and it became possible to build a "Regional Resource Centre" on Clontarf's site (leased to CCE)
Congress that year was abuzz with the great news Millions of euro to fund loads of projects. Project Driven. Meitheal Projects
Projects Projects Projects. Comhaltas had entered into a new and modern landscape of buzzwords and cliche and this Project driven ethos was being lauded reccommended and endorsed by one man in particular. He painted a bright and rosy future for Comhaltas with a load of new Regional Resource Centres. Westmeath, Louth ,Dublin and others. Regional Resource Centres his Buzzword Regional Resource Centres not Clontarf's Centre . Monies made available from the exchequer for Regional Resource Centres
No outcry then from Clontarf Delegates
No "They're taking our building".
No "After all our hard work"
None of that , that year. Mind you the man working hardest to push this Regional Resource Centre agenda was from Clontarf and in all the recent public airing of grievences, he has remained remarkably quiet.
No amount of "he said she said" is going to solve this problem in Clonmtarf but matters may not have come to the unpleasant state at which they now are had all the facts been known by all concerned.
Committee members (Dissolved) have ,by their utterances on National radio, shown a remarkably tenuous grasp of the realities of the machinations of CCE and the complexities of the Clasac issue . They have however shown a remarkable conceit . Do they really still believe that a Government Department saw fit to single out a one of Comhaltas and bestow millions upon millions of euro to fund an isolated fiefdom to the exclusion of all other Branches. L'Oreal funding (Because we're worth it ) doesn't exist in the real world.
Most of the Officers of the dissolved Branch have opted to keep quiet I wonder why.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by banjocp
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Second last paragraph 2nd last sentence
should read " Do they really believe that aGovernment Department saw fit to single out one Branch of Comhaltas " etc.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by banjocp
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Now it starts to strike some balance toward understanding, as more perspectives are given...
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
The real situation is simply this:
This situation can never be solved while Larry, the present CCE HQ and all their hangers on are there. It is all nepotism and is being actively perpetuated- take my word for it.
It is more than about the CLASACH centre. Larry is not the real problem. It is the lackeys who keep and protect him.
Strange as it may seem, Larry is probably the most idealistic of the whole lot of them.
He has surrounded himself with people of little talent.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
By the way where is the Comhaltas statement? This communications thing from 3,000 miles away is a fierce problem
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
"4)Why should it matter that the people ,who did form a new Branch , are not parents of Children receiving lessons. It is a Comhaltas Branch not a Music School"
I think this statement is a disgrace.
How can you operate a CCE branch without representation from the children/students who are learning to keep this culture alive.
Most of these students are under 18 years of age and need their parents vocal support. It matters 100% that this faux board are not parents of current students.
Comhaltas branches ARE music schools by default. Do you include 'standing around getting pictures taken for Treoir' a cultural activity....
I really hope you point #4 was meant to be a double negative.
Disgusted.
Tommy
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by tompipes
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
What amazes me are the number of people who " are prepared to change from within rather..." usually stated as being better than "sit on the outside throwing stones, or, on the fence, getting splinters and blaming someone else"
Well I wish you would get a move on and make these changes you keep going on about, because there are still no changes of any substance nor has there been down through the years!!
Why not read the history of what happened with the Willie Clancy week or better still talk to those who were involved back then? Talk to the older members of Na Píobairí Uilleann and see what they have to say about Comhaltas and how Comhaltas attempted to grab power and control. Why not check up on Labhras(Larry, Senator)'s behaviour on the subject of Irish Trad music and the "dea"l with IMRO? etc etc. Yeah, by all means stay on the inside and make the changes. But make them- if you can. I for one won't be holding my breath.
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
concertinaplayer
I am one of those people who are still within but I am in despair because I see no means to effect change while all of the top echelons are resistant to change - in fact , fear change. If you look at any busines, government department, etc change will not happen from below up, because it makes too many people uneasy. e.g HSE, etc. Change should come from the top.
Not saying they get it right , but they create changes.
It would take an incredibly brave individual to battle alone against the might of the Branch, Provincial and National "Old Guard" to try to bring about change - especially when their children are closely involved in classes, competitions , etc. No parent would want to jepordise or embarass their own child.
Also, of course, it is a grace and favour system. If you actively support the "Old Guard", you will be in the inner circle. If conform and dont make noises you will be tolerated and perhaps thrown a scrap or two ( the odd free meal, etc.) If you rail against the injustices you see all around you, you will be ignored, shunned, in the hope that you will simply go away. Dear dissolved members of Cluain Tarbh, welcome to the latter category!!!
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I know knight. I ran. Life is too short. For me it was a case of the auld serenity prayer
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Finer details of Clontarf CCE argument are to be found here
http://www.cluaintarbh.net/clasac-docs.htm
Tommy
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by tompipes
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Concertinaplayer
I am not familiar with the Labhras/Comhaltas/IMRO thing. Can you enlighten me or tell where to read about it please
# Posted on March 27th 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Knight, there's a pretty good discussion here:
http://www.musicandcopyright.org/iff2003.html
It doesn't paint Senator Ó Murchú in a very good light, I'm afraid.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
However -- I would note that neither West London, IMRO nor the 1999 Arts Report have anything to do with the current discussion of Clasac and Cluain Tarbh. Yes, Comhaltas and members of Comhaltas have been involved in controversial issues over the last 50 years. I'd be surprised if they hadn't.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Yeah Brendan, but it's the nature of the controversies. Always the same MO !!
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Tommy dear misinformed Tommy
The aims and objecties of Comhaltas place lessons way down the list of priorities . There is probably little point in arguing with someone so unfamiliar with the Organisation but I'll go on . There are Comhaltas branches worldwide ,running Sessions Ceilithe and Concerts with classes taking a lesser place in the scheme of things . Take a look at the really renowned Branches . Cumann na bPiobairi Uilleann for example and you'll find that their membership consists of far more Adult Members than kids . Yes they do run classes and very successfully at that but the balance between old and young means that the younger musicians learn more from their interaction with accomplished musicians than in any classroom. Classes can only teach tunes Sessions teach music and Comhaltas is about music .
Music stays with you for life , tunes can be forgotten all too quickly.
In the last few years filling the position of Youth Officer has become mandatory at all levels of CCE. This was at first seen to be tokenism however in the areas where it has been implemented wholeheartedly it has proven to be an enormous success. Remarkably in Branches where the entire raison d'etre of the committee members is lessons for their kids, the input from the Youth Officers seems to amount to very little and the number of kids who remain playing music with their branch as they pass the age of eighteen seems to dwindle far greater than in the branches where the young are trusted enough to be allowed to participate as members not as pupils.
Comhaltas is reaching a crisis in this regard. Self serving interests of pushy parents means that a chosen few get a chance to shine to the detriment of the musical aspirations of the less talented, less well off and this as I have already said is not a Comhaltas aim or aspiration. Traditionally music was learnt from musicians and students talents were honed in sessions. Now in some instances tunes are taught by teachers with a medal as the prize rather than a lifelong enthusiasm for one of the worlds finest artforms.
In the main people join Comhaltas with the above in mind, others I'm afraid have to learn this the hard way and some will never learn.
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by banjocp
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
"The aims and objecties of Comhaltas place lessons way down the list of priorities . There is probably little point in arguing with someone so unfamiliar with the Organisation but I'll go on ."
Banjocp,
I don't know if this point was directed at me but I am very familiar with the 'organisation'
I was a member of the Clontarf branch of CCE and I was very instrumental in organising the very first fund raising conert for the future facility. That concert was in Liberty Hall and featured the Maire Breathnach Band and a host of under 15 musicians from branches all over Dublin.
I currently teach music at a CCE branch in St Louis and one thing I will note is that the parents of current students are very much involved in the running of the branch.
"Take a look at the really renowned Branches . Cumann na bPiobairi Uilleann for example and you'll find that their membership consists of far more Adult Members than kids ."
Is that adult students or just adults?
"Music stays with you for life"
Isn't that the sometimes forgotten beauty of it!
"tunes can be forgotten all too quickly"
Depends on the tune.... ;)
"Remarkably in Branches where the entire raison d'etre of the committee members is lessons for their kids, the input from the Youth Officers seems to amount to very little and the number of kids who remain playing music with their branch as they pass the age of eighteen seems to dwindle far greater than in the branches where the young are trusted enough to be allowed to participate as members not as pupils"
I can kinda see your point in practice but I've never seen it happen in the few branches that I've been involved with.
It's a big world....
"Self serving interests of pushy parents means that a chosen few get a chance to shine to the detriment of the musical aspirations of the less talented, less well off and this as I have already said is not a Comhaltas aim or aspiration."
Banjocp,
As a teacher of whistle, flute, uilleann pipes and fiddle for 20 years I've had my fill of pushy mammys......
Yes there is the mammy who wants little Johnny to bring home the gold medal. And then there is then Mammy who wants to call you all kinds of names under the sun coz little Johnny didn't win.
Then you have little Joe who doesn't like competitions and he just wants to learn tunes and have fun at sessions. But the branch secretary enters him in the competition anyway because they want the $10 entry fee, joey gets p*ssed off from getting yelled at for not competing and quits playing altogether.
Pushy branch runai's do more damage that pushy mammys..
Not all the time but from what i've seen over the last 20 years it's 50/50 easy.
To correct you again, I am a lot more familiar with this set up than you presumed. Not your fault, you don't know me. Which is probably why you should have left off the "Dear misinformed" bit
Wouldn't be just great if CCE stuck to what they do best and teach and encourage people to play tunes.
Informed Tommy
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by tompipes
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I just spotted this statement.
"Classes can only teach tunes Sessions teach music and Comhaltas is about music "
Hmmm....
Sessions are about playing what you have already learned. Classes are where you learn. Sessions are where you ply your trade.
Competant musicians teach music. You may pick up a bit of a new tune at a session but you won't learn how to 'play it' from sitting with 5 or 10 musicians going hell for leather on a saturday evenin'. Sessions may encourage structure but not musicianship.
there's a vast difference.
Tommy
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by tompipes
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Comhaltas has released a statement on their website:
http://comhaltas.ie/press_room/detail/clontarf/
Take a read ... I might be able to clarify some points if necessary. Cheers!
# Posted on March 28th 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I sense a tribunal coming...
# Posted on March 29th 2008 by cferrie
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ? and CLASAC
Been a quiet day on the Clontarf Battlefield. "Saght mir wo die blumen sind?" Where have all the flowers gone? We await a response to the official statement posted on the Comhaltas Website from the members of Craobh Cluain Tarbh , who were so forthcoming a few days ago . Hopefully the "Comhaltas bashers " who were so rash in their appraisal of the situation , while they had only one side of the story will learn something.
I waited for the other side of the story before rushing to judgement .
Perhaps those who posted intemperate comments and indulged themselves in character assasination will have the decency to withdraw their remarks and post an apology in light of the information which has now been made public.
Maybe Mr Duffy will also learn something about balanced radio broadcasting.
One can only wonder how long it will be until Breandan Breathnach and the Piper's club and their activities are put under the microscope.
Comhaltas is not a perfect organisation , far from it . It has however done good work during the 50+ years of its existence.
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by lordgordon
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Perhaps "Flowers" should read "Tulips" .
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by lordgordon
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Firstly lordgordon, I am one of those who have made criticisms of Comhaltas in the past and will continue to do so, should the opportunity arise. There is absolutely no chance I will withdraw any remarks. Firstly, despite all the talk about ard comhairles and committees etc, the contact name on the statement is Labhras, Larry, Senator whatever which goes to show that his finger is still very much in the pie
Secondly, I and others have repeatedly said that Comhaltas do good work so you are hardly bringing anything new to the discussion in saying that, but - and there is a but- the part of Comhaltas that do the good work are those at the so called grassroots level and this description is always another way of saying that there is a bunch of people doing loads for nothing or in the case of those on a wage, for little or nothing( see b's own admission)
Thirdly, even in the case that the statement is a totally accurate one, there is a case here of giving a " dog a bad name". Perhaps you might read the article on the IMRO incident and come back then and tell us how whiter than white" Comhaltas is.And you can take it that this particular incident is very far from isolated and in fact it is accepted even in Comaltas circles that there is an upper or inside circle that rules with an iron fist whilst making sure to do as little of the hard work such as teaching and the little but important chores in the day to day running of the branches as possible.
I speak from over thirty years participation on and off, in trad music,including as I said the founding of a branch of Comhaltas and can tell you that whilst we all admit that members of Comhaltas has done good work, a lot of us know that down through the years it has shown itself to be quite capable of dodgy and questionable behaviour.
As someone who depended at times in my life to be paid by site managers etc, it didn't do me any good to read of tradesmen being left without money at any time and especially Christmas.
If the statement from Comhaltas is 100% accurate then what is more worrying than anything else is that quite a few members from Clontarf would appear to need psychiatric help .To go on radio shows and to the media in general to talk about this as they did when the truth was as in the Comhaltas statement, seems strange.- *if * the statement is 100% accurate and *if* all that happened is in the statement. It is the last part that I wonder about.
As for Brendán Brethnach being examined, well I am sure he doesn't care seeing that he is no longer of this earth. And I wonder why you would single out Na Píobairí Uilleann for questioning- is there something we should know lordgordon? On the subject of Na Píobairí Uillean- that is the proper name for the organisation and not the Pipers Club which is in fact the name of a branch of Comhaltas based in Dublin. Or is there something about that particular branch needs checking on?
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Hi Concertina player,
Im in complete agreement with your first paragraph.
Yes I have read the report on the IMRO incident and here again we are in agreement. I did NOT even suggest that Comhaltas was "whiter than white" - your words not mine.
Perhaps you would come back and tell me where I said that . --or visit Specsavers - joke ! "Comhaltas is not a perfect organisation , far from it . It has however done good work during the 50+ years of its existence"
I have absolutely no axe to grind with Na Piobairi Uilleann (I stand corrected on the proper name ) or the late Breandán Breathnach (with whom I was acquainted) I chose them as an organisation with similar aims and wondered would they be next for trial by " thesession.org" Forgive me any members of Na Piobairi Uilleann if my reference implied anything questionable. It was not my intention . Is any organisation "whiter than white" Concertinaplayer ? Like our political parties "Let him that is without sin etc."
You seem to doubt the complete accuracy of the Comhaltas statement , Did you have doubts about the accuracy of the Clontarf side of the story when you posted earlier comments?
As far as I am concerned the jury is still out . I await as I said a response to the Comhaltas statement. from Clontarf. I expect the truth is somewhere between the two sides of the story. I do not give blind allegiance to any organisation or political party . I lay blame where I think it's due . but neither do I form a judgement based on one side of any story.
Let's not waste time in futile argument about organisational politics but get on with playing and enjoying music. Have a good day .
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by lordgordon
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Corection : I mean your second paragraph . Now I'm off to Specsavers. ha ha !
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by lordgordon
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
What we have now is to different accounts of events, we can only wait and see how things pan out, maybe in time we'll find out which elements of the statements are the facts as they happened.
LordGordon defends his organisation by throwing mud at others, poor Breandan gone to his reward twenty six years ago was one of these people driven by a vision and passion that never brought him material gains. One of these people, Tom Munnelly is another one and many more could be named, who was always extremely generous and helpful, always willing to share and impart knowledge to help people along, always workign in service of music and culture.
Na Piobairi Uilleann, always a sore spot for Comhaltas after their attempted powergrab when the organisation came into being failed, is highly successful and single handed;y responsible for the state of piping today. I have been in the past critical of some things going on in the organisation but never ever have they ever been involved in anything comparable to the antics of CCE. If they would, I am sure the microscope will come out to give them a hard look, and so they'd deserve. Lacking any intrigue and scandal,lordGordon, I am afraid there's little to see.
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Have you read my reply to concertinaplayer? Comhaltas is not MY organisation . Labhras o Murchu and the ard Comhairle are not Comhaltas. Some people are visiting the perceived sins of the few on the large number of hard working people who make up comhaltas,also working VOLUNTARILY in the service of music and culture . I am not defending anyone or anything other than " innocent until proven guilty. " -Even the right of "a dog with a bad name"
Perhaps you might give some background to the attempted powergrab which has been mentioned a couple of times. Like the IMRO thiing it's healthy to hear it all.
"What we have now is to different accounts of events, we can only wait and see how things pan out, maybe in time we'll find out which elements of the statements are the facts as they happened." My point exactly. Pity you joined those throwing stones when we only had one of the story .
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by piper reilly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Hi again Kilfarboy
I changed username while away over weekend and had forgotten my password so I I'm back as piper Reilly . You challenged me to comment when this thing broke but I chose to wait for more informatiom . Cheers
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by piper reilly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I think we were writign at about the same time, when I started writing your reply wasn't there, it had appeared when I posted mine.
Somehow I thought you were Piper Reilly, I even checked your profile and found nothing there to confirm it.
As stated above, this is not a situation without precedent, the case as presented by the Clontarf branch is perfectly in character, I have no reason as yet not to consider it credible, but we'll wait and see.
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by Prof. Prlwytzkofski
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
No problem. Like you said we'll wait and see .
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by piper reilly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Cluain Tarbh response to CCE press release can be found here
http://www.cluaintarbh.net/
# Posted on March 30th 2008 by An Rogaire Dubh
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
post on website wwwmudcat.org
Subject: RE: Battle of Clontarf-round two/Comhaltas Interruptus
From: GUEST,kevink
Date: 30 Mar 08 - 06:19 PM
Over the last few days, the position of breandain has evolved. Initially he presented himself as an impartial observer who respected both sides as acting out of purely selfless motives, now given the pure volume of his contributions to this and other sites and his unquestioning support of head office's version of events and despite the contradictions with his own earlier versions of events its my opinion that Breandain is acting as the main full time spokesperson for head office.
AN ECHO FROM HISTORY?
In 1953, a popular uprising in what was then East Germany (the GDR) was crushed by Russian tanks. Responding to the irony of workers being militarily crushed in what was laughingly called a workers democracy the great German writer,Bertolt Brecht, who lived in the GDR, courageously commented on the events and the 'official' version of same through the poem below,
The Solution
Bertolt Brecht
After the uprising of the 17th June
The Secretary of the Writers Union
Had leaflets distributed in the Stalinallee
Stating that the people
Had forfeited the confidence of the government
And could win it back only
By redoubled efforts. Would it not be easier
In that case for the government
To dissolve the people
And elect another?
I am not trying to directly compare such tragic events with the unfortunate row with Cluain Tarbh but there are some parallels in methodology. At the EGM where many Cluain Tarbh members heard the views of Labhras and the standing ctte, many for the first time, the vast majority of parents and young people rejected their viewpoint and the resolution put to the meeting by a member of the Ard chomhairle by about 95%. The 5% minority, and I am being generous here, who supported the attacks on the branch executive are now the 'officially' recognised self-selected Cluain Tarbh branch.
Does that not echo Brecht's jibe on dissolving the people and electing another. How can one have respect for the people involved in such a manoeuvre?
In Breandains more recent statements there seems to be attempts to airbrush very recent versions of events. The dissolving of the branch, a very difficult act to defend, is increasingly being changed to the dissolving of the branch ctte. Is it the truth that the branch had to be dissolved because the members wouldn't be bullied into submission? I use the word bullied because of the extraordinarily aggressive and contemptuous attitude displayed on that night to the upstanding and honest members of the branch who have no agenda outside the best interest of the branch and Comhaltas. They all have day jobs and are outstanding volunteers in their own time.
The necessity and methods used for the dissolution of the branch is still not being explained despite all the thousands of words expended on this site and others by Breandain and this to me is the most important issue facing all members of CCE
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by puisin
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Can anyone give some background info on Bru Bru in Cashel? Was its opening delayed 20 months? Who runs it? Is it Mrs Labhras?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by dílis
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
With the greatest of respect piper reilly, if you will kindly look again, you will see that I have no issue with the main ground force of comhaltas, do not consider it "your comhaltas" or anything like it. What I am saying and indeed to echo what Kilfarboy has said, this behaviour by a certain few at the top or the inside whatever way you want to put it, is not new nor out of character. And the reply from Clontarf shows that very clearly. My suspicions about what had been left out were well founded and if anything in the Clontarf statement is to believed, it is the the terrible sense that they had worked in conjunction with HQ until HQ saw the time to grab had arrived and did so.
But what fascinates me is why are people using the "ordinary membership" of comhaltas as a distraction? No one to my knowledge has anything bad to say about the voluntary workers of Comhaltas. Likewise, anyone who works long hours for little play( or pay less than civil service rates) like b says he does, is not being disparaged here. Nor are there aspersions being cast on the good work done by the grassroots in running classes. What has long been a sore point is the behaviour by a few and I wonder what it is that stops you seeing this and keeps you using the siege mentality as a means to defend your believes. (At this point I am wondering how you got on a specsavers)
Like I said above, the minute you read the statement from Comhaltas, the first thing you see is the contact name. And that tells you all you need to know. Yes Labhras and Ard Comhairle are not Comhaltas but nobody told Labhras and nobody has the spine or back bone to. But as puisin alludes to- why all this defence of the innder sanctum of Comhaltas from it's office workers? The inner sanctum who won't even pay them a decent wage? And why can't they pay them a decent wage when the monies are being given to them through grants etc. As b's writing unfolded, you could see that he went from someone who apparently knew very little about it to someone who had been well versed- by who I wonder and why?
To conclude, nobody to my knowledge is in opposition to the classes, the ceilis , the Tionol and even at a push the competitions; nor are they critical of the great dedication and love for the music shown by everybody concerned at that level. But whether you like to acknowledge it or not, it is at or after this point that people tend to lose interest and indeed respect for Comhaltas and if a small minority of the membership colour people's perceptions of Comhaltas as a whole ,then perhaps it might be time for those who like to boast of how "they are working to change things from the inside" to actually do something. Because most musicians I know have no time whatsoever for the top brass and general find them reprehensible and that includes long time members.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Yes dílis, Mrs Labhrasa and if you wish to see where some of the money for it came from, see the link posted above by b himself and by his own admission doesn't paint Labhras in a very good light. Nothing changes, nothing changes. Dogs and spots and all that !
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Who is on the Ard Chomhairle these days?
Tommy
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by tompipes
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Some questions b could help with.
Is Labhrás Ó Murchú on a salary from cce apart from the one he gets from the Senead with expenses? Is it as modest as 'bs'
Is Ms Ní Mhurchú on a salary/expenses from cce for Bru Bru in Cashel?
Does Labhrás have the use of an appartment in cce headquarters when in dublin on Senead business?
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by dílis
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
a feck it you can have your classac back
I DONT CARE!!!! im p*ssed off with this comhltas lark,
im gonna feck off to south america with all me bread.
regards labhras
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by labhras o murchu
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
You can't fool me! The Senator always capitalises "regards".
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by b
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Should b's last message have actually read:
'You can't fool me! The Senator always capitalises.
Regards,
b"
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by MacCruiskeen
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
No not at all.
It should have read
"The Senator regards capitalists always"
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by knightly
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Capitalists always regard The Senator!
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by dílis
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
i've been working in this music buissness for 30 years,
and i've been promoting diddle dee da music all over the country so before i resign can can someone tell me the diffrence bewteen a jig and a reel??
Regards labhras o murchu (the senator)
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by labhrasomurchu
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Tommy ,
First things first ,
Let me apologise for appearing patronising I spent the previous few days listening to information, misinformation, nonsense and drivel. You took some flak more properly aimed elsewhere.and I'm sorry. I'm pleased to note that we seem to take a rather similar notion with regard to pushy parents and secretaries.
To answer one of your questions Cumann na bPiobairi Uilleann CCE, as indeed many of the older and well established branches have a majority of adult members not necessarily musicians. They join to share a common interest in furthering and fostering Traditional Music. the players play and pass on the benefit of their wisdom ,the others often Parents of Members who have grown up and moved on , put their efforts into helping out at sessions, Fleadheanna , Ceilithe and all for no financial reward. Their experience and abilities ought not to be overlooked they are often the public face of Comhaltas and their enthusiasm is often the motivating force in newer people becoming involved. Again I'm happy to say I was wrong, Mr Informed Tommy.
P.s give my regards to Ms Gannon.
Now those nice folk who take the view that personalising the issues above and in particular those taking a pop at Sen Labhras O Murchu, should bear a few things in mind.
Contrary to their assertions that the Ard Stiurthoir is a self appointed Grand Vizier surrounded by a conclave of obedient sychophants on the Ard Comhairle and willing drones in Headquarters, let us get one thing straight. The Ard Comhairle Standing Committee is elected. You get what you vote for and if in the opinion of these elected representatives Sen O Murchu should remain in office, that is one of the powers they are entitled to exercise.
If you're in CCE and not happy with the man, Change his bosses. Attend your branch meetings become informed of and participate in your County/Provincial business . attend, or familiarise yourself with the goings on and workings of ,National Congress. Thats where it all happens Folks . Any Seven People may form a Branch, Members elect a Branch Committee. The Branch elects to the County The County and Branch to the Province The Branch , County and Province to the Ard Comhairle and they, appoint the Director General.
Not self appointed, not the Grand Vizier but a a Director General paid to do a job.
I doubt if anybody in CCE has agreed with everything that Sen O Murchu has said and done in his position. That is both natural and to be expected and I suppose that as the Person "placed" at the pointy end, he is inevitably going to present a target for those not happy with the governance of CCE. We're all guilty of it to one degree or another forgetting that we employ him to do the job but the perpetual harping on of those, particularly ex-members or those who were never members is getting a little hard to take. If they don't participate in CCE and/or do not like the processes we adopt , join and engage to effect change failing that , accept the democratic wishes of our membership. Most of us do and we get along just fine.
# Posted on April 1st 2008 by banjocp
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
"There is a "power grab" going on the ,mechanism by which it is to be achieved is to "reconstitute" the Branch with an unelected unrepresentative committee"
An Rogaire Dubh Mar 21 2008
Followed by a few words about the Committee
1) This Committee was self appointed at a private meeting which excluded 90% of the "Current Branch Membership"
Question Is this the Dissolved "Current Branch Membership"? If so what was wrong with forming a Branch that is prepared to accept the terms of membership of CCE
when they no longer had a branch to participate in.
That Committee was elected to represent those people who felt that they should not suffer penalty for the actions of some which brought about the dissolution of their branch. A branch I might add to which these people have collectively given several centuries of service. Unrepresentative??? I don't think so . They represent the bedrock of CCE the ones who get in and work and work and work and when a problem arises they seek to find solutions not confrontation. All of the members of the Branch formerly known as Clontarf joined "Comhaltas Ceoltoiri Eireann" and they are entitled to exercise their Constitutional rights to form their own branch should they so desire.
An Rogaire Dubh
your Branch was dissolved, Your branch were collectively given an opportunity to comply with an instruction or face a very specific consequence. Your Branch was given the facility to apply for reinstatement and the issue and prospect of dissolution was never put properly to your members so if these people took a decision to form a branch, after the date of your dissolution .whats it to you?
"Membership is to be accorded to "members who are competitors in the Dublin County Fleadh Cheoil ie children. No mention of the current senior members ie those entitled to vote "
"Current Senior Members" of what exactly? All Branches are open to young and old who agree to accept the governance of CCE Bunreracht and I'm not aware of anybody willing to accept said governance being refused. Are you?
AND THEN WE NOTE
" Several of the members have a direct vested interest in the control and running of the new centre"
An Rogaire Dubh let me tell you now and kindly impress this on your fellow travellers for ever more , EVERY MEMBER OF COMHALTAS CEOLTOIRI EIREANN, HAS A VERY DIRECT AND VERY VESTED INTEREST IN THE CONTROL OF THE NEW CENTRE, We ( All members) paid for it . We ( All members)denied other projects their funding for it . We ( All members)are still waiting for it. But we ( All members)have learnt from it .
In all the noise on Radio ,the inaccurate reporting in the Indo and indeed this very forum there has been much said regarding Comhaltas and in particular the Ard Comhairle 's and Sen O Murchu's involvement As I have said in previous entries I thought it unfair to single out one individual in the proceedings. The artists formerly known as Clontarf ,for all their letter writing ,blogging radio story telling ,exaggerating and fabricating, may well find that their bogey men are far closer to home than the offices in Monkstownand whilst their loyalty to their masters may warrent some commendation , I ask this question footsoldiers, where are your leaders, why are the hiding behind you, why did we never hear their names on the radio, or see their names in print, what exactly are they afraid of.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by banjocp
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
I have made a comment of the above recent comments at the tread by Bannerman.
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
thread
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Re: Forget the Politics !! As per Bannerman's suggestion
After posting my comment above in reply to Bannerman's quite understandable plea to leave the politics to one side, the comments that followed and comments on other threads, I got to thinking about Comhaltas and it's relationship to musicians in general.
Over thirty years, of all the musicians I have known in different counties, only one is a member of Comhaltas. Some of us were at times "involved", some got lessons and some taught (in some branches, membership is compulsory in order to teach or get classes) but over a period of years, no one that I know of actually remained a member for very long. The one remaining member is not a member that long so it remains to be seen how long that lasts.
Furthermore, when there is a session being held regularly in a particular town/village and the question of the musicians giving classes arises, a branch of Comhaltas can be formed for no other reason than it is easier to do it that way. That Comhaltas provides insurance, thereby making it easier to get the use of schools/community centres for classes is probably one of the main reasons why a branch is formed. After a branch is formed, the classes begin and apart from sending the money on to HQ, there is no real connection to Comhaltas other than receipt of the quarterly magazine and entering younger players into competitions if they or their parents so wish. But for most, HQ is of no relevance to them.
And so one might well find that in some communities, especially outside of Dublin, Comhaltas is hardly recognised. If I were to ask for example were there fiddle classes available, I could be told that Johnny so and so or Mary so and so's daughter teaches fiddle over in the primary school of a Tuesday night. A B&B landlady, who I stay with in Clare, tells me that she sends her daughter across to so and so and he's very good. That any of those teaching the fiddle or whatever instruments are doing so under the auspices of Comhaltas or in classes organised by a Comhaltas branch can be irrelevant. Maybe because the passing on of music especially in rural areas is a community thing? The community look after their own, neighbours help each other and the teaching of your neighbour's kids is done as part of your contribution to your community. This has always been the way, long before the advent of Comhaltas with the most extreme case being that a teacher would travel from another part of the county to teach.
Although I don't have access to figures, I would imagine that membership of Comhaltas can be a transient thing for a lot of players. They join either by own choice, by the parent’s choice or if they have to when getting classes and then let the membership lapse when the need for classes is over. Of course this is not always the case but as "banjocp" touches on in another thread, sometimes the core membership of a branch can consist parents /people who don't play. Why?
Maybe in Ireland (and it's all I can talk about) , the general attitude of the thousands of musicians who play is one of indifference to Comhaltas- no animosity, indeed a recognition that is a great place to get classes- but just indifference. Like the North Pole, they know it's there? The sessions and the playing go on without any involvement from Comhaltas. It was like that before Comhaltas and in all likelihood would go on if Comhaltas were to cease to exist.
So it is difficult at times to see where Comhaltas get the idea that they are the "keeper of the flame", " minder of the lamp" and the one entrusted in the promotion of the music. The facts are that the music doesn't nor never has needed "promotion" and in fact the nature of the musician and of the session is that players don't care if anyone is listening, they would almost prefer that sessions stay underground. As I have said, it has always survived. Yes, we all agree that Comhaltas has played a part in the continuance of the tradition (to what extent is debatable), we will all give credit where it is due, but my experience and that of others, is one of indifference to the "goings on " in Belgrave Sq. But despite the beliefs of those with the siege mentality, there is no one just hanging around, seething with anger at Comhaltas or slag it off at any given chance.
However, where the indifference certainly does turn to anger, is when the seemingly power hungry mits of certain Comhaltas members reach out to grab at and influence in a way they see fit and in a way that offends the very soul of the music, the very thing that they claim to be nurturing. And the facts are that there have been many incidents of this. Incidents, which in some ways are beyond understanding and it, could be said in modern jargon, that Comhaltas seem very keen to talk the talk but at times certainly do not walk the walk.
For example, why has there been a policy of almost ethnic cleansing of certain regional styles by certain factions within Comhaltas? Why is B/C style of box playing given preferential marking over C#/D in competitions? (That this style of box playing is surviving and in fact experiencing a bit of a revival is testament, thankfully, to how little influence Comhaltas has). Why have certain regional styles of singing been ostracised in Comhaltas? Who decides this policy? And why? How can an organisation that professes itself to be a nurturer and promoter of Irish Traditional Music give preference to one regional style over the other? How can a musician support an organisation that makes little of maybe your friend's style of playing? Maybe the answer is that they don’t? Maybe the answer is in the fact that as I have said, thousands of musicians want no part of Comhaltas?
And these are only a few of the ongoing decisions made by Comhaltas which would appear to be about power for power sake. A need to control for the sake of feeling empowered? All one has to do is read the accounts of what happened in the early days of what is now known as the Willie Clancy week to see power grabbing mind set by certain factions within Comhaltas. A mind set that says to the effect that "we are the main men, we know what is best and we are the righteous owners and guardians of the music" How else could one explain their actions? And whilst it has been understandably and correctly argued here and in other places that there are many people in Comhaltas who do great - voluntary or lowly paid - work, these same people need to acknowledge that by staying quiet on these matters, they are in fact enabling this behaviour to continue.
"banjocp" makes the point on another thread that "the perpetual harping on of those, particularly ex-members or those who were never members is getting a little hard to take" Does he not realise that the content of the “harping on” is the very reason why these people are ex members or non members? Is it not understand that there is a reasons why many thousands of musicians do not want to belong to or have moved away from Comhaltas? Especially when considers that membership is not an expensive process and when one considers the normally very strong sense of pride and sense of nationalism that can come with the playing of this music? Who knows?
But one thing can be clear here and that is that the general music playing population are quite uninterested in Comhaltas, they don't care if HQ in Belgrave Sq is turned into a brothel; they simply don't care. But leave what has always organically survived alone. And don't be surprised when all the so called ex members express their anger at certain behaviours, because there is a general believe that the behaviour of Comhaltas can at times, be reprehensible. That loads of members work hard at providing classes is no excuse. And maybe in this latest incident, certain members of the Clontarf branch are all wrong? Maybe? But if the pattern so far is to believed then it would appear that there is no smoke without fire. Are all those commentators, sometimes separated by continents, all psychotic in their beliefs that Comhaltas HQ has once again " disgraced itself"? Are the Glackins and The O'Brien families to name a few, also mistaken in their support? How come we are all wrong? Is this a case of "all out of step except my Johnny”?
On the subject of IMRO and" that "incident(which Harry Bradley amongst others have written so clearly on in other threads), if Labhras O'Murchu had/has his way, in conjunction with IMRO, we will soon go the route of Italy. Where the publicans have to pay for license to have a session. Where the musicians have to submit a list of tunes played so that royalties can be imposed. If for example you say you played Danny Ab's slide then money has to be coughed up for Danny. That Danny never gets it is neither here nor there! Is this an exaggeration? I think not. He has already shown his willingness give and take monies so that Comhaltas can have control over the music. Himself and IMRO just haven't found a way to complete that control yet.
For example, how can IMRO take money from the fella playing the radio in his workshop, monies that are intended for those artists performing on the airwaves, and give it to Comhaltas? If all monies taken belong to those who music is played, how can Comhaltas be given an annual fee whilst at the same time complain about the lack of Trad music played on the airwaves! If jigs and reels (excepting the newly composed) cannot be levied, how can Comhaltas be given money? How can Comhaltas, an organisation that uses Catholicism as a base for it's spiritual beliefs (see past involvement in issues like abortion and divorce) accept this money?
Perhaps when Comhaltas as an organisation are seen to route out and rid themselves of the many behaviours that appear to be and are contrary to the real spirit of the music, then there might not be so many ex members/ non members seemingly skulking around the corner with apparently so little to do, that they "hop off " Comhaltas just for the fun of it?
Finally this writer has to wonder how it is that when the dodgy stuff in Comhaltas surfaces, the name of Labhras O'Murchu is never far away. And how that the many well-known and respected figures in music scene always seem to "pick on him" when these same issues arise? Is there some one or are there many persons hiding behind Labhras and using him as a patsy? Does he get the blame for the behaviour of others?
I think that as Bannerman suggests,we all want to get on with the music. And all around Ireland, week in week out, we do- in the form of sessions and summer schools- all away from the eyes of Comhaltas.How long will that go on? Because the past is not past- it is here, very much in the present
# Posted on April 2nd 2008 by concertinaplayer
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
Follow that!!!!!!!!
# Posted on April 3rd 2008 by dílis
Re: The TRUTH about Cluain Tarbh CCÉ and CLASAC
The great and good of tradional music turned out on friday night to lend support to the dissolved cluain tarbh branch.
What a night's music and what good company!
Good to see members of so many other CCE branches turn up, people travelled from Newry Armagh Dundalk Meath Kildare Wicklow not to mention the other Dublin branches.
Nights like this are what Comhaltas should be about!
# Posted on April 6th 2008 by dílis