Just wondering what people here think of musicians in other genres ‘borrowing’ Irish tunes. I don’t mean bands like Horslips etc. who I believe, are a valid part of the tradition, but someone, say, like the vastly underrated Pierce Turner. He is ostensibly outside the tradition, yet, to my ears, has made tremendous use of traditional Irish airs.
Nicholas,
Predominantly keyboard , bass, and drums based, melodic songs (though, live, he often plays acoustically, sometimes with sa tring quartet) inspired by his youth in Wexford and subsequent life in New York. Drawing from a deep well of influences - eyerything from Palestrina, through ITM to the Beach Boys - his albums have achieved various degrees of artistic success, but, at his best, I think he's the most original Irish artist of the past thirty years.
Pierce Turner (Singer/Song writer) is from Wexford Ireland and does most of his gigs in the USA, where he spends most of the year. I played at a funeral last year where he was in attendance, Afterwards he spoke with me about some of the airs we had played during the service, and about how beautiful the sounded. To me they were just the usual 'run of the mill' slow airs' such as Ned of the Hill etc. However, he seemed more than interested in the music. Made a change from the usual listener where everything goes over their head
The Church and the contemporary Christian world have used them, sometimes clumsily, sometimes marvellously. The Iona Community based in Scotland uses a lot of Scottish and Irish tunes, I believe, for its songs, and on what little I've heard of their stuff they have a good instinct for their use. The Christian band Iona with piper Troy Donockley recorded a couple of wild and beautiful albums at first ("Iona" and "The Book Of Kells") in which the influence of trad was never far away, though they seemed to go a bit flim-flam after that, rather like Clannad. And among the many really beautiful original new tunes that have cropped up in church services in the last two or three decades, a handful have a strongly Celtic feel, for one reason or another, without probably setting out to do so.
I think all this is fine if Irish (and other) trad tunes are out of copyright or used with permission, and not introduced with a fanfare as Irish (or whatever) if what you're going to get is The Londonderry Air stuffed with cringe-inducing attempts to dress it up as a hymn.
It's surely a compliment to the tradition that musicians and composers from other genres should look to it for melodic material, whether borrowing actual tunes, fragments thereof or merely mimicking the style. The issue of copyright, where a copyright exists, obviously applies, just as it does to performing and recording artists *in* the tradition.
...'Classical' composers have been doing it for centuries - using popular dance forms as a basis for their composition, or incorporating existing folk tunes into their work.
I read somewhere (A.L.Lloyd, I think) that the "Come all ye..." form of traditional song might have come to mainland Britain from Ireland in the c19 along with immigrant refugees from the potato famine. This is the sort that has an ABBA tune structure - i.e., the first and last lines are musically identical with each other, and the middle two lines likewise. They often begin, "Come all ye...", and a prime example is Come All Ye Tramps And Hawkers, admittedly manifestly Scottish in its wording. The Flower Of Street Strabane (as sung by Johnny Moynihan) is in this form. So, tweaked up, is Patrick Street, which in England has a naturalised version called Barrack Street, recorded by Nic Jones.
It's an economical song form tune-wise, given sturdiness by the way the tune and rhyme structures cross-mesh. It was useful to have it to hand if one's prime concern was with the words, story or message, and one wanted to borrow or knock up a tune without much to-do at short notice. It lent itself well to expressing sombre circumstances - The Trimdon Grange Disaster, a song from County Durham, is one such.
I think sometimes it's good. Look at Metallica's "Whiskey in the jar." Say what you like about that version compared to the traditional, but the reality is that it exposed a lot of people to Irish music that would have never listened to it in the first place.
If a Classical composer had spent enough of his youth becoming a good trad player, he probably wouldn't have spent enough time practising to become a good Classical player by the always exacting standards of good orchestras, educated courts etc. on which the Classical professionals depended. I don't know any tales of folk fiddlers slotting into Baroque, Classical etc. orchestras, though it may well have happened. But charged to write two sonatas, a concerto and a cantata for Sunday at a day and a half's notice, such a person would probably have admitted to being a bit out of his depth.
That's why Classical composers peer into the world of trad as into a bear pit. If they'd grown up in it, they wouldn't have become Classical composers - unless they'd started Classical lessons very young, worked hard at them, and left the pub and trad side largely alone. And people old enough to be knowledgeable Classical composers, while not too old to play trad, might not see the point of devoting a long time to mastering it when they're in full flow batting out oratorios and symphonies and such. But if they fish tunes out of the bear pit, that's kosher by me.
"Just wondering what people here think of musicians in other genres ‘borrowing’ Irish tunes..."
As long as the tune is in the public domain, or if it's still copyrighted credit and or appropriate compensation is given, I say "borrowing" Irish tunes is A-OK. My band has borrowed several Irish and Scottish trad tunes and arranged them in very non-traditional ways. We've recorded a couple of them and cycle several more in and out of our live performance sets. It's not often that you hear brass instruments (including a tuba) playing tunes like "Musical Priest" and "Sleepy Maggie." 10 million people heard our version of "Sleepy Maggie" because it was used (almost in it's entirety) in a pilot for a TV series. Oh, I can hear the grumbling from here...
I wasn't there, but it is my understanding that many classical composers grew up with music of all sorts in the house and out. I am thinking of the madrigals of a far earlier time, the popularity of the parlor piano before the advent of age of music machines, to name a couple of examples. It is my conjecture that music of different sorts was part of their day to day existence. If I were to try to become a classical composer, I would need all day, everyday, but i have met enough musical people who can change their musical hats in the middle of the stream that it would seem incomprehensible that many of them did not play "trad" music of all sorts.
Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Just wondering what people here think of musicians in other genres ‘borrowing’ Irish tunes. I don’t mean bands like Horslips etc. who I believe, are a valid part of the tradition, but someone, say, like the vastly underrated Pierce Turner. He is ostensibly outside the tradition, yet, to my ears, has made tremendous use of traditional Irish airs.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by molaoch
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
I haven't heard of Pierce Turner. What sort of stuff does he do?
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Do you mean using actual identifiable Irish tunes, or composing in a recognisably Irish traditional style - or maybe both?
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Nicholas,
Predominantly keyboard , bass, and drums based, melodic songs (though, live, he often plays acoustically, sometimes with sa tring quartet) inspired by his youth in Wexford and subsequent life in New York. Drawing from a deep well of influences - eyerything from Palestrina, through ITM to the Beach Boys - his albums have achieved various degrees of artistic success, but, at his best, I think he's the most original Irish artist of the past thirty years.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by molaoch
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Nicholas again...
Identifiable Irish tunes.
My previous post should, of course, read 'with a string quartet...'
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by molaoch
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Pierce Turner (Singer/Song writer) is from Wexford Ireland and does most of his gigs in the USA, where he spends most of the year. I played at a funeral last year where he was in attendance, Afterwards he spoke with me about some of the airs we had played during the service, and about how beautiful the sounded. To me they were just the usual 'run of the mill' slow airs' such as Ned of the Hill etc. However, he seemed more than interested in the music. Made a change from the usual listener where everything goes over their head
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Identifiable Irish tunes - let's think...
The Church and the contemporary Christian world have used them, sometimes clumsily, sometimes marvellously. The Iona Community based in Scotland uses a lot of Scottish and Irish tunes, I believe, for its songs, and on what little I've heard of their stuff they have a good instinct for their use. The Christian band Iona with piper Troy Donockley recorded a couple of wild and beautiful albums at first ("Iona" and "The Book Of Kells") in which the influence of trad was never far away, though they seemed to go a bit flim-flam after that, rather like Clannad. And among the many really beautiful original new tunes that have cropped up in church services in the last two or three decades, a handful have a strongly Celtic feel, for one reason or another, without probably setting out to do so.
I think all this is fine if Irish (and other) trad tunes are out of copyright or used with permission, and not introduced with a fanfare as Irish (or whatever) if what you're going to get is The Londonderry Air stuffed with cringe-inducing attempts to dress it up as a hymn.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
It's surely a compliment to the tradition that musicians and composers from other genres should look to it for melodic material, whether borrowing actual tunes, fragments thereof or merely mimicking the style. The issue of copyright, where a copyright exists, obviously applies, just as it does to performing and recording artists *in* the tradition.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
...'Classical' composers have been doing it for centuries - using popular dance forms as a basis for their composition, or incorporating existing folk tunes into their work.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
...and the Irish tradition has adopted melodies from popular (and perhaps also classical) music.
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by CreadurMawnOrganig
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
It makes jazz worth listening to. LOL
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
I read somewhere (A.L.Lloyd, I think) that the "Come all ye..." form of traditional song might have come to mainland Britain from Ireland in the c19 along with immigrant refugees from the potato famine. This is the sort that has an ABBA tune structure - i.e., the first and last lines are musically identical with each other, and the middle two lines likewise. They often begin, "Come all ye...", and a prime example is Come All Ye Tramps And Hawkers, admittedly manifestly Scottish in its wording. The Flower Of Street Strabane (as sung by Johnny Moynihan) is in this form. So, tweaked up, is Patrick Street, which in England has a naturalised version called Barrack Street, recorded by Nic Jones.
It's an economical song form tune-wise, given sturdiness by the way the tune and rhyme structures cross-mesh. It was useful to have it to hand if one's prime concern was with the words, story or message, and one wanted to borrow or knock up a tune without much to-do at short notice. It lent itself well to expressing sombre circumstances - The Trimdon Grange Disaster, a song from County Durham, is one such.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
I meant, above, "The Flower Of *Sweet* Strabane".
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
I think sometimes it's good. Look at Metallica's "Whiskey in the jar." Say what you like about that version compared to the traditional, but the reality is that it exposed a lot of people to Irish music that would have never listened to it in the first place.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by mistercliff
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Classical composers have always borrowed from traditional. Have any of them actually listen to or played traditional?
I suppose James S. Skinner.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Ben Steen
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
^ Haydn for one was from a famiy who played lots of folk music with neighbours etc. Hence him arranging lots of folk tunes.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by alexthomas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
... and by famiy i of course mean family
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by alexthomas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
If a Classical composer had spent enough of his youth becoming a good trad player, he probably wouldn't have spent enough time practising to become a good Classical player by the always exacting standards of good orchestras, educated courts etc. on which the Classical professionals depended. I don't know any tales of folk fiddlers slotting into Baroque, Classical etc. orchestras, though it may well have happened. But charged to write two sonatas, a concerto and a cantata for Sunday at a day and a half's notice, such a person would probably have admitted to being a bit out of his depth.
That's why Classical composers peer into the world of trad as into a bear pit. If they'd grown up in it, they wouldn't have become Classical composers - unless they'd started Classical lessons very young, worked hard at them, and left the pub and trad side largely alone. And people old enough to be knowledgeable Classical composers, while not too old to play trad, might not see the point of devoting a long time to mastering it when they're in full flow batting out oratorios and symphonies and such. But if they fish tunes out of the bear pit, that's kosher by me.
Isn't life a bitch!
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
"Just wondering what people here think of musicians in other genres ‘borrowing’ Irish tunes..."
As long as the tune is in the public domain, or if it's still copyrighted credit and or appropriate compensation is given, I say "borrowing" Irish tunes is A-OK. My band has borrowed several Irish and Scottish trad tunes and arranged them in very non-traditional ways. We've recorded a couple of them and cycle several more in and out of our live performance sets. It's not often that you hear brass instruments (including a tuba) playing tunes like "Musical Priest" and "Sleepy Maggie." 10 million people heard our version of "Sleepy Maggie" because it was used (almost in it's entirety) in a pilot for a TV series. Oh, I can hear the grumbling from here...
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by GDub
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
Do you know Percy Grainger's piece "Molly On The Shore"? It may sound a bit like what you've been doing.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by nicholas
Re: Other genres 'borrowing' from ITM
I wasn't there, but it is my understanding that many classical composers grew up with music of all sorts in the house and out. I am thinking of the madrigals of a far earlier time, the popularity of the parlor piano before the advent of age of music machines, to name a couple of examples. It is my conjecture that music of different sorts was part of their day to day existence. If I were to try to become a classical composer, I would need all day, everyday, but i have met enough musical people who can change their musical hats in the middle of the stream that it would seem incomprehensible that many of them did not play "trad" music of all sorts.
# Posted on March 22nd 2008 by toumi