Say you've got a regular gig at a pub, for both pay and tips, you've been doing it for 2 years; say that in come some young female dancers trying to raise money to go to the world championships, members of a local team; say they ask you to play a few reels so they can dance; say you play a great set of reels and the pub is rocking; say they pass the hat amongst the custmomers, cuteness and all, and walk out the door taking those tips some of which might have been yours; say you let them go wihtout a word, but you have some feelings about it; say they walk through the door the next week with the intention of doing it all over again; (say the next week is the night before St. Patty's and the pub is packed with good tippers)
It's a fairly standard way for them to raise money for Worlds.
First off, the pub gets to decide if they can do their fundraising thing or not. Then, if you seriously feel they're taking unfair advantage of you as musicians, and it's not a cause you'd be bothered to support, tell them to use their recorded music - they'll usually have it with them.
Personally I enjoy playing for dancers after all it is dance music. Seems to make more sense when someone is actually dancing. I think if you want to claim some of that money try passing the hat around just before they get there. I suspect they will still get a lot more than the musicians. Punters love it.
If you weren't going to pass the hat around (and I find the idea of that at a session very alien) then they aren't taking anything belonging to you.
BTW (Declaration of interest): My daughter is off to the Worlds in a few days but she and two of her friends came and danced for free at a concert we were playing at on Sunday night.
Myself and friend played for dancers today. People threw money at their feet--the usual wadded up ones, fives, and tens. They raked it in. Toward the end of 90 minutes of steady playing, some kind parent of a dancer finally thought to leave $10 on the table for the musicians. Much appreciated, but all too rare. That's just how it goes--doesn't matter how well you play, how agreeable you are to every request for reels, jigs, slip jigs, treble jigs, etc., the darling kids get the money.
I guess I've just gotten used to it being this way--so I play for the fun of it. Any money that comes my way is just gravy.
Don't play a note until you've just simply said what you need to say, even if it is for a so-called charity. If they disagree don't play at all. They won't be able to dance without music.
Get a day job so you don't have to worry about it. Or if music is your full-time job, and the pub is rocking that much, negotiate a modest pay raise from the pub owner.
I don't think you've established that you and the dancing kids are in a zero-sum game, where every dollar they get nets a dollar you don't get. Meanwhile, every kid comes with a family member who buys dinner, drinks, might buy your CDs, etc.
Meanwhile, you benefit from a lively scene and a strong local dance group that generates interest in Irish music.
Heck, you might even send a press release to your local paper about them, and bring additional people into the pub to spend money. Work out a deal with the pub owner to make it a win-win situation for everyone.
Open your mind, and work this wonderful thing called a market economy.
And support the dancers. Someone supported you when you played youth soccer or little league or whatever.
"If they disagree, don't play a note at all. They won't be able to dance without music." Key Maniac Lad
I've generally (always, actually) found musicians as a whole to be much more accomodating and friendly than this towards dancers, especially "darling kids." As jwvansteenwyk says, someone supported you when you played youth soccer or little league or whatever.
My experience with the tips at sessions has left me ambivalent. On one hand , it is a nice bit of a reward for the players, but it always seems to distort the personal relationships between the players. Your experiences may be different, and I hope they are, but it seems to me that tips are more the golden apple than the golden goose. In my ever so humble opinion, there is a difference between busking and sessions, and if you can encourage young people to dance, it is a day well spent.
"Say you've got a regular gig at a pub, for both pay and tips"
The source of your problem is the last word in the above sentence. Never accept a gig based on tips. The publican should be supporting the session and spare you of tip solicitation. If it wasn't for the fact that tips were figured into your arrangement with the pub, the dancers could raise their funds, the energy would be great, and everyone would be delighted -- even the musicians.
grego, if anything perjorative came across in my words "darling kids," it wasn't my intent. Except possibly along the lines of "never act with kids or animals, either one will always upstage you."
As I said, I love playing for dancers, and the kids I routinely play for truly are darling (and talented and appreciative of the live music).
In Eliot's situation, I'd be inclined to happily play for the dancers, letting them have all the tips they can milk from the crowd. I'd kick in a few bucks myself. In the long run, generosity of spirit tends to come back to you. In this case, the punters may see the musicians happily supporting the dancers and subsequently tip the musos better in the future. What goes around, comes around.
Jack's point is good, too. When people tip us at our (unpaid) session, we almost always pass it on to the wait staff--they're the ones working; we're *playing.* And at paying gigs, we don't put out a tip jar. (Well, at one recent gig, the client put out a tip jar for us, but that was his idea.)
I'll let them dance and play for them without a word edgewise -- they're cute and young, and a few $$$ in my life won't make much difference one way or another.
That's as long as they don't come *every* week and make it a habit.
Sharing tips with dancers ...
Sharing tips with dancers ...
Just hypothetically, you understand...
Say you've got a regular gig at a pub, for both pay and tips, you've been doing it for 2 years; say that in come some young female dancers trying to raise money to go to the world championships, members of a local team; say they ask you to play a few reels so they can dance; say you play a great set of reels and the pub is rocking; say they pass the hat amongst the custmomers, cuteness and all, and walk out the door taking those tips some of which might have been yours; say you let them go wihtout a word, but you have some feelings about it; say they walk through the door the next week with the intention of doing it all over again; (say the next week is the night before St. Patty's and the pub is packed with good tippers)
What do you say to the dancers if anything?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Eliot
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Oh, those kind of tips... not, "step lively" and all that.
Tell them you'd be glad to pass the hat and give them a percentage.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Wyogal
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
If you're going to do it put a time limit on it... It's your session, they are guests...
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
It's a fairly standard way for them to raise money for Worlds.
First off, the pub gets to decide if they can do their fundraising thing or not. Then, if you seriously feel they're taking unfair advantage of you as musicians, and it's not a cause you'd be bothered to support, tell them to use their recorded music - they'll usually have it with them.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by grego
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Its a tricky situation.
A lot of work does go into fundraising for the World's. It costs a lot when flights and accomodation have to be paid for.
Personally, I'd let them once or twice for a limited time. It is important for you however, not to let them take advantage of your gig.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Wild Rover
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Personally I enjoy playing for dancers after all it is dance music. Seems to make more sense when someone is actually dancing. I think if you want to claim some of that money try passing the hat around just before they get there. I suspect they will still get a lot more than the musicians. Punters love it.
If you weren't going to pass the hat around (and I find the idea of that at a session very alien) then they aren't taking anything belonging to you.
BTW (Declaration of interest): My daughter is off to the Worlds in a few days but she and two of her friends came and danced for free at a concert we were playing at on Sunday night.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Donough
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Myself and friend played for dancers today. People threw money at their feet--the usual wadded up ones, fives, and tens. They raked it in. Toward the end of 90 minutes of steady playing, some kind parent of a dancer finally thought to leave $10 on the table for the musicians. Much appreciated, but all too rare. That's just how it goes--doesn't matter how well you play, how agreeable you are to every request for reels, jigs, slip jigs, treble jigs, etc., the darling kids get the money.
I guess I've just gotten used to it being this way--so I play for the fun of it. Any money that comes my way is just gravy.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Don't play a note until you've just simply said what you need to say, even if it is for a so-called charity. If they disagree don't play at all. They won't be able to dance without music.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Rudall the time
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Get a day job so you don't have to worry about it. Or if music is your full-time job, and the pub is rocking that much, negotiate a modest pay raise from the pub owner.
I don't think you've established that you and the dancing kids are in a zero-sum game, where every dollar they get nets a dollar you don't get. Meanwhile, every kid comes with a family member who buys dinner, drinks, might buy your CDs, etc.
Meanwhile, you benefit from a lively scene and a strong local dance group that generates interest in Irish music.
Heck, you might even send a press release to your local paper about them, and bring additional people into the pub to spend money. Work out a deal with the pub owner to make it a win-win situation for everyone.
Open your mind, and work this wonderful thing called a market economy.
And support the dancers. Someone supported you when you played youth soccer or little league or whatever.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by jwvansteenwyk
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
"The darling kids get the money." Will CPT
"If they disagree, don't play a note at all. They won't be able to dance without music." Key Maniac Lad
I've generally (always, actually) found musicians as a whole to be much more accomodating and friendly than this towards dancers, especially "darling kids." As jwvansteenwyk says, someone supported you when you played youth soccer or little league or whatever.
Or maybe they didn't...
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by grego
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
In the words of W.C. Fields:
"Ah, children, I love children...fried or fricasseed".
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Seosamh Ui Sinan
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
My experience with the tips at sessions has left me ambivalent. On one hand , it is a nice bit of a reward for the players, but it always seems to distort the personal relationships between the players. Your experiences may be different, and I hope they are, but it seems to me that tips are more the golden apple than the golden goose. In my ever so humble opinion, there is a difference between busking and sessions, and if you can encourage young people to dance, it is a day well spent.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by toumi
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
"Say you've got a regular gig at a pub, for both pay and tips"
The source of your problem is the last word in the above sentence. Never accept a gig based on tips. The publican should be supporting the session and spare you of tip solicitation. If it wasn't for the fact that tips were figured into your arrangement with the pub, the dancers could raise their funds, the energy would be great, and everyone would be delighted -- even the musicians.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
grego, if anything perjorative came across in my words "darling kids," it wasn't my intent. Except possibly along the lines of "never act with kids or animals, either one will always upstage you."
As I said, I love playing for dancers, and the kids I routinely play for truly are darling (and talented and appreciative of the live music).
In Eliot's situation, I'd be inclined to happily play for the dancers, letting them have all the tips they can milk from the crowd. I'd kick in a few bucks myself. In the long run, generosity of spirit tends to come back to you. In this case, the punters may see the musicians happily supporting the dancers and subsequently tip the musos better in the future. What goes around, comes around.
Jack's point is good, too. When people tip us at our (unpaid) session, we almost always pass it on to the wait staff--they're the ones working; we're *playing.* And at paying gigs, we don't put out a tip jar. (Well, at one recent gig, the client put out a tip jar for us, but that was his idea.)
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Alright then, Will. You're generous, but misunderstood.
# Posted on March 19th 2008 by grego
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Thanks for the excellent replies -- based on this info, I will certainly handle it differently next time it happens "hypothetically."
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Eliot
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Being misunderstood is the gist of the human condition, eh grego?
[sits back, waiting for all the posts saying they don't quite get my meaning, could I please explain.]
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
So Eliot, hypothetically speaking, how *will* you handle it next time?
# Posted on March 20th 2008 by Will Harmon
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Hypothetically,
I'll let them dance and play for them without a word edgewise -- they're cute and young, and a few $$$ in my life won't make much difference one way or another.
That's as long as they don't come *every* week and make it a habit.
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Eliot
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Will,
I'll be at the RMIMR this year, hope to see you there.
E
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Eliot
Re: Sharing tips with dancers ...
Eliot, I'm counting on RMIMR--just to hear that new flute of yours!
# Posted on March 21st 2008 by Will Harmon