Yes, but if he can move it what's wrong with me holding off till next week to celebrate, eh? Besides, tomorrow is the 17th and so many folks were confused here that we've decided that if the 15th is OK by the pope, then next Tuesday is OK by me...
So there I was with my three boys at the Phoenix St Patrick's day parade watching the various dance schools, fire trucks, Irish Wolfhound clubs and even Star Wars characters(?) marching happily down 3rd street. Then, in the middle of all this festiveness, I see two shabby dinosaurs carrying their giant political banner which would have been apropos for a march back in 1986 -
ENGLAND GET OUT OF IRELAND!
"The last of the British troops left last year!" I bellowed startling others around me. The two dim-wits glance over at me with a bit of surprise, "Paisley and McGuinness shook hands and the Good Friday Peace accord was signed ten years ago! I bellow even louder. The two dim-wits attempt a glare of intimidation at me, but stare right back. "You two are clueless idiots" I bark much to the dismay of several families around me.
Now I suppose I could have handled this situation a bit better. However, I am so sick to death of my fellow "Irish Americans" who have never walked the streets of the Falls Road or tried to raise a family in Shankill, talking tough, making threats and carrying political banners about a subject they (in general) Know f-all about. And now, almost a year after the last English boots have left the province, after the UVF, IRA, UDA, etc. have put aside their weapons, and TEN years after the power sharing agreements were signed, these two dumb-asses go merrily marching down my public streets with a giant banner that dredges up all those old feelings of sectarian hatred once again. Ignorant Fools.
Apologies if this post spoils anyone's Saint Patrick's day joy.
What's the point in celebrating the national day of a foreign country? I see some of the previous contributors to this thread are Americans. For example, I wouldn't celebrate an American national day, and why should I?
If if were to celebrate yesterday (as, yes, that is the date Paddy's day was moved to by papal decree this year) surely there is no earthly reason why I shouldn't celebrate Hungary's national day, Mar 15th? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day
As it happens, I made quite good money for playing two St Patrick's gigs on consecutive nights, though, so I'm not complaining.
I'm just not going to pretend I'm Irish around this time of year though.
Certain experiences have kicked the hupspa out of me, at least about some things... It is very difficult to question the unreasonable, like any extreme, they hear nothing but what they want to and they are always right... Is it any wonder that such people generally make lousy musicians ~ something to do with not being able to hear...
I might get on your sh*t-list with this, but we do celebrate the 4th of July here annually, with a Jacob's Join and a bit of other Americana, in the way of dance and food, and Robbie Burns day too... But, we don't dress up in cowboy hats and boots or any of that other paraphernalia, or in kilts and gowns for the celebration of the poet Burns...
There is a town in ND that celebrates August the Deuce, originally a holiday brought from Iceland, where no one celebrates it.
Maybe it's an Irish-American thing, sentimentality and all.
Cinco de Mayo is big business in many parts of the US. Most Americans erroneously think it's Mexico's Independence Day, when in reality it celebrates a battle of Mexican Farmers over French Army regulars in the Battle of La Puebla. No one cares. What it really means today is huge business for Corona, Tecate, and Doritos. Frankly, Saint Patrick's day isn't too far removed from those big business motives either.
Jusa Nutter Eejit, way to go! I feel a bit weird with some of the "We're Irish (American)!" rhetoric, and I would much prefer to celebrate peace and healing, than dredge up old quarrels. I'm glad you said something.
KML, I suppose we celebrate in part because we've had so many Irish immigrants come and become part of the fabric of society. People probably also just want an excuse to be rowdy and get plastered....sigh. I think a lot of Christians ought celebrate St. Patrick, considering how the Irish churches and monasteries kept Christianity and a whole lot of intellectual material alive through the Dark Ages and reintroduced them to a newly Germanic Europe.
Not all Americans are eejits, Eejit. Some of us do know a little about Mexican history--and Irish history too. But you're correct that most everything in the US that's celebratory en masse has turned into a big business day for the sale of related items. In general, however, I would say that St. Patrick's Day and Cinco de Mayo are largely ignored by the vast majority of Americans. That's unfortunate, IMHO. I think we need more stuff to celebrate in the US--more stuff that brings people together to dance, play music and have a good time... why not?
And hey Fishmonger, see you at the Ruth McGowan's...
I and some others had a surprisingly good night of it, playing in a pub in one of the many parts of County Durham that lie outside of the known world. Booklets were issued with the words of the usual suspects. Someone was there who could sing and play guitar, which was what suited the audience, and I would rather hear someone sing When Irish Eyes Are Smiling competently than people playing tunes badly, not that we are incapable of doing the latter of course. Others from the audience sang, in one case astonishingly well. Free beer, some £.
The place is big enough to have an events-size upper room but is in a small village, so periodically they have theme nights to attract punters out there, simple as that. Paddy's Night fits the bill. I think the next one's Elizabethan.
Ease up? Why should I? I'm making what I see as a perfectly valid point. I don't celebrate Greece or Iceland or Mexico days. Not because I'm "scrooge" about these days but because I'm not Greek or Icelandic or Mexican or Irish, so those days are not part of me displaying my identity.
ceol -I should imagine that St. Patrick's Day's probably in there with The Mexican Day Of The Dead, Dallas, Chinese New Year, Dambusters, Oktoberfest, Jewel In The Crown, The Great Storm Of 1987 and The Fall Of Thatcher, in the theme list. But I did not study it in detail.
Here in SF we celebrate holidays from other countries every weekend it seems. Usually they're cultural events and it's a chance to taste see and hear various aspects of the particular country or culture. The biggest ones are Chinese New Years and Paddy's Day because they both have parades and they each have a large community in the area.
In the 90s the Paddy's Day season was great for trad music because the SF Celtic Festival was happening and it would import loads of musicians from Ireland into the area. The Festival itself wasn't as good as the residual impact of having Irish musicians in the area looking for the odd gig and filling out the local sessions.
Currently Paddy’s Day isn’t having the same effect without the festival. Unless you’re into the parade thing and the pubs filling up with people who are Irish-for-a-day and want to get hammered – it’s a non-event.
We managed to get talked into doing one of the local pubs on Paddy’s Day, but I’m not looking forward to it. I’m sure the pub will fill up with people whose interest in Ireland and its culture is limited to how much they can drink and how rowdy they can get. They seem to think Irish people drink and yell as loud as they can at each other all the time. This is the furthest thing from the truth as far as my experience goes. Well, the yelling at each other part anyway.
So there ye go. You express a perfectly reasoned preference on here for doing or not doing something and someone has a pop calling you a curmudgeon. So just because it doesn't fit in with vox populus on here you get slagged. How reasonable an argument is that? At least I know at what level I'm dealing with now.
Easy now, KML, he was just yanking your chain, taking the p*ss, whatever you want to call it. Note the smiley face.
Now, if he had wanted to insult you, you would know it. If there's one thing that we Americans excel at, it's insulting other nationalities. [insert big self-deprecating smiley here]
After reading all of theses comments, I am glad that I have already committed to playing my acoustic bass fiddle that evening at a musician's circle at a local Southern Baptist church.
The Minister of Education at the church hosts this musician's circle on the third Monday of every month and this month the third Monday is St. Patrick's Day.
This Southern Baptist preacher likes to play guitar, banjo, and fiddle in his spare time (as well as thinking that he can sing).
I became acquainted with him because I play bass fiddle with a group of people who meet once a month to play the type of music which people used to play at home to amuse and bemuse themselves with before we had computers, television, radio, telegraphs, trains, electricity, and other so-called "modern" conveniences.
Jusa, I will repeat this for your benefit. The north of Ireland is an illegally occupied and oppressed statelet. Well done the boyos with the banner, if there were more like them then the return to a united 32 Counties Republic would be a reality rather than a dream. I'll bet that if a foreign power occupied a usa state that you would be the one with the banner.
The U.S. is currently under an illegal occupation. It's been overthrown by the neo-cons in the Bush Administration. I see people carrying banners about it all the time. I think I've even carried the banners sans the shabby dinosaur outfits. Come to think of it, I've seen the people the U.S. supposedly "liberated" in Iraq carrying similar signs.
Sorry about getting so preoccupied with this point... carry on...
KML - I apologize. I was only teasing. I thought you would just have a laugh about it. I was wrong. Strayaway - it's one thing for somebody who lives in Norn Iron to have a banner. It's another altogether for an American to sport an IRA shirt who has never been there to do it - especially in the face of so much progress towards reconciliation. Romanticized notions while safe in the comfort of distant boredom. I'm sure we all wish for a united Ireland. I apologize if I have caused offense.
No offence taken, Jusa, while I agree that it may well be a case of romanticised notions by the bannermen, on the other hand, they may have had the cruel realities of oppression forced upon their relatives/friends living here. You should have had a reasoned debate with them, that always sorts out the boys from the men, IMHO.
I'm looking forward to St. Patrick's Day. My middle school orchestra will learn The Haunted House reel. My big regret is that our regular Monday session has been cancelled so the pub owner can bring in a rock band. :( I had really been looking forward to it.
Fair enough Strayaway. But if you wear a shirt that says Tiocfaidh ár lá - (like my guy in the parade) you should at least be able to pronounce it correctly don't you think? (he couldn't)
Being politically concerned is one thing, but playing a fool is another.
strayaway, I love your idealistic optimistic attitude, but 'reasoned debate' is very difficult when the issues are so emotive. They usually last about five minutes, until the good intentions wear thin and people start getting accused of being fascists, extremists, terrorists, and all the other tedious over-used insults.
IMHO, nobody needs to do anything to 'remove the illegal occupation' of N. I. The border will just quietly dissolve away by itself, as have other contested borders in the European Union.
Again, IMHO, the tragic conflict in Ireland is a 'looking back' matter. We're all going to be focussing on the 'looking ahead' problems. Ireland has a relatively low population density. It might well welcome another few million immigrants. But what happens when the indigenous culture starts to be more and more diluted and becomes overwhelmed ? Then the backlash starts ?
I think people everywhere tend to be generous and kind. If a sick starving foreign woman walks into a village, someone will have compassion and take her in. But if there are ten more the next week, and then hundreds more...?
The local Welsh people where I live are being displaced, almost like ethnic cleansing, not by poor refugees, but by wealthy foreigners who can afford to pay astounding high prices for houses and land. There is bitterness and anger about this.
Happy St. Patrick's Day to all the genuine, culturally Irish people. May you have a great day of celebrations. To all the Plastic Paddies, may you meet your end horribly in a motorway pile-up.
PS thank you to Jusa Nutter Eejit, the world needs more people like you. I think if I'd been there I would have bought you drinks for the rest of the week.
Oh, to clarify on being uncomfortable with some of the "We're Irish (American)!" rhetoric, I don't mean the rhetoric of Irish people, I mean the rhetoric of Americans who claim to be Irish, sometimes without seeming to have a clue. I'm very in favor of political activism on a large number of issues, but poorly informed nationalist sentiment scares me a bit. Too much blood has been spilled based on such sentiments (all around the world) to take misguided nationalism or political fervor without knowledge and wisdom lightly.
Along with Jusa Nutter Eejit, I mean no offense Strayaway. I am an American, and I defer to the Irish on this board to tell it like it is and instruct the rest of us. I just want us Americans over here to shut up and listen before we run our mouths off about what we haven't lived through.
I wandered into a Wal-Mart this week. Multiple isles full of St. Paddy props and assorted plastics eggs, chocolate bunnies galore. I felt like I was on the set for a Tim Burton movie.
If I put on the shamrock bead, glasses, underwear and green cat in the hat gear, I would look like an pimping leprechaun.
fauxcelt: That was a little wind-up - I think actually it's a sect in Tennessee and thereabouts. At the end of St. Mark's Gospel there's a promise that believers will not be harmed by drinking poison and will pick up snakes (i.e. with immunity), and they major on putting this to the test. I saw it on TV.
Apology accepted, Jusa Nutter Eejit.
But there are still many unresolved issues in the north of Ireland as yet. I doubt if we've heard the last of it.
Some of you may know already St. Patrick was most likely not Irish at all, but a Romano-Briton from a wealthy family, then as a cyouth captured by Irish pirates, sold as a slave and made to tend sheep in possibly the Wicklow Mts, where he had time enough to contemplate creation but also injustice such as he had suffered. He finally escaped, made it to Brittanny (Armorica) before returning to Britain, where he entered the church. He eventually returned to Ireland as a missionary, setting up monasteries and churches, which went on to prosper. Around this time and shortly after the Roman presence southern Britain waned and was submerged by Angle, Saxon and Jutish maurauders from what is now North Germany and South Denmark, creating turmoil and destabilising the civilisation the Romans had created. Although there were raids on the Irish coast, mostly Ireland was spared of these depredations, enabling Celtic Chrisitianity to grow and flourish, and finally to expand. Firstly, By St. Columbus to Iona on the west coast of Scotland (although St Ninian had been to Galloway previously), then the rest of Scotland then onto Lindisfarne. Missionaries from "civilised" Ireland went on to evangelise throughout Europe: France, Germany and Switzerland, during the Dark Ages. Celtic Christianity finally succumbed to Roman Christianity at the Synod of Whitby in 633AD, where St Augustine of Canterbury and his mates from the Roman church won because, among other things, they had brought along more bits of dead saints with them (relics.)
Maybe youse ought to remember the real history of what you're celebrating before you pour that 12th pint of green lager down your cakehole today, and vomit up on the carpet, thinking thank god for Saint Patrick who saved Western civilisation, this is what I'm celebrating.
My understanding, KML, of the reason for the outcome of the Synod of Whitby was more to do with the Roman Church more than hinting that if the Celtic Church didn't accede to demands, then there just might have been an invasion from somewhere close by.
There was *massive* 19thC Irish emigration to the US and Australia (in particular) in the wake of the repression, famines, poverty and the bitter fallout from several failed rebellions. There was a clear and stated intention among many of these Irish to make a country for free Irish people in the "New World", having lost hope of it ever happening in Ireland. They have every reason to celebrate their survival and eventual flourishing, and St Patrick's Day has traditionally been a focus for that. In my own little town in Australia, there was - still is - a special mass and picnic races
DD - yes, you're probably right, at the end of the day. These things are most easily resolved by a threat of suprior military might.
But the ecclesiastical *justification*, I'm led to believe, was because the Roman church, from the Council of Nicea (also regarded by some as a sham) had the true path to God via St. Peter:
"Wilfrid, by clever argument, was able to show that the Roman ways stemmed directly from St. Peter, holder to the keys of heaven, and a superior authority to the Irish Columba advocated by bishop Colman"
from: http://www.wilfrid.com/Wilfrid_pilgrimage/Whitby_synod.htm
and this was the justification, and thus took the form at the Synod of having more relics of saints to display.
Exactly, Bren; and I've heard it said in thanks on St Patrick's day to Australia for giving us a place to live in, when others would not. Australia reportedly has the highest proportion of population of any country outside Ireland claiming Irish descent - n.b. as a proportion of the population, even greater than the United States. Why should Australians who have this heritage, or 'cultural' inheritance in their families, their religion and their towns, regions or cities, be made to feel they should deny this, or they have no right to identification with something like St Patrick's day, in whatever context they identify with it.
I think the sort of denial of that wish which might be put in the way of Australians, comes from some particularly mean mindsets. Happy St Patrick's Day - (no I didn't get to go to the parade.)
Hmm, KML, I think that if the Celtic Church had been the dominant genre now, that there mightn't be the sorts of problems there are now. The Celtic Church sounds like it might have been a more 'cool' version of catholicism, with, what I understand were its origins in gnosticism and a comfortable amalgamation with christianity.
Do I get excommunicated for this?
The churches weren't in opposition then, I understand. The opposition only came when it became political expedient to do so.
Otherwise, yep, ceretonia, pretty much right - from what I've read anyway. Except that St Patrick, being an upper-class Briton at the time, could well have been a person of Roman as well as British descent.
I won't mention the difference between British and English descent.
Yes, that's what I've been led to believe, DD.
'Cooler' ? - what, are you thinking of the punk-style tonsured haircuts the monks have?
I think it was more holistic, anyway: http://english.glendale.cc.ca.us/christ.html
Well, partly, KML (sorry about the metaphor). Actually, I was thinking about their practice of voluntary celebacy, or no celebacy at all, can't quite recall. That didn't go down too well in the Roman Church at the time apparently.
I grew up in NYC - the "melting pot." I'm not Irish, but I am an "-ish". and that's the thing about growing up in NYC and especially the US. Everyone is from somewhere else and we hang onto our cultures. But, we don't just revel in our own cultures, we often celebrate other cultures as well. Sometimes in the city there is a parade every weekend celebrating a different cultural group.
I don' t live in the city any more, but I was there just yesterday. We had a blast. But, even up here in the wilds of Western Massachusetts people celebrate their cultures all the time and other cultures as well.
St. Patrick's Day is just one of those celebrations.
"St. Patrick's Day is just one of those celebrations."
Exactly the point I was trying to make above. That's ALL it is to many people with no knowledge of what it it's about.
That's all it is to many people, to many people it is more, to some it is nothing at all. What I find interesting is the premise put by some people that if you weren't born in Ireland you can't somehow honestly attend a St Patrick's Day parade if you want to - whether you identify with Irish heritage or not.
On that basis, St Patrick himself wouldn't be able to attend the parade, because he was apparently a Romano-Briton, born in Britain. He would be a "plastic patrick" relegated to an icon on a car dashboard.
"....whether you identify with Irish heritage or not..."
Does that include playing at sessions?
My original point was that although I might play Irish music, I wouldn't celebrate St. Patrick's day as such because I'm not Irish. I still stand by that. I'd go and watch a parade with a free conscience though.
This started as such a simple thread.
Wish each other a happy St. Patrick's Day. Now I read all this crap about how Americans are supposed to deny our heritage because we weren't born in Ireland. It's almost as stupid as the idea we shouldn't play ITM because we weren't born in Ireland. p*ss off ye gobsh*tes!!! LOL
Please get over it. It's ugly and obnoxious.
Sincerely,
An English-Irish-Scottish-Dutch-American who loves ITM
So, KML, are you 'celebrating' the day by going to watch the parade, or not?
You can certainly play itm whether you identify with Irish heritage or not - many do of course, including a good proportion of the posters on this board, no doubt.
So, whether one identifies with Irish heritage or not, why should people be made to feel somehow inferior by going to a St Patrick's day parade, just because one wasn't born in Ireland? What is the difference?
To me, it is like saying that if you weren't born in Ireland, then you really shouldn't be playing itm or going to itm sessions.
I haven't ever heard people born in Ireland say that. I also haven't ever heard people born in Ireland say that if you weren't then you really shouldn't be going to the St Patricks parade.
It seems that it is only people who weren't born in Ireland who tell other people who weren't born in Ireland that they shouldn't go. What a lot of bollox. Wannabe elitists I think.
KML - I never said that the celebration shouldn't include knowing what the day is about. But, there is nothing wrong in joining in. It's a day of pride and other people joining in add to that pride. Everyone wants to be with you on that day.
When I invite someone to celelbrate one of my own "-ish" holidays - they are joining in my pride and learning more about me.
On a those special days we learn about each other - make the world a better place - celebrate diversity - and all that other silly stuff.
Going to watch a St. Patrick Day parade does *not* make you a Plastic Paddy, regardless of your nationality/where you were born/whatever. Just so that's clear, ok?
Now, to all the Plastic Paddies, may you be blown by a freak gust of wind off a station platform into the path of an oncoming train, and may your bodies be so mangled that it is impossible for your next of kin to identify you in the aftermath.
People here are making the points they want to, Dow.
It's good that you make yourself clear, Dow, we wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea of you, eh.
No. That would be dangerous, getting the wrong idea of me. I called round the pub on Sunday night after the parade for a beer, and some drunken bogan Aussie woman came up to me, and because I have a soft, lilting accent, she assumed I was Irish, and went all starry eyed: "I love the Irish" she said, as though there weren't any bad Irish people in existence, and then she actually put on a fake Irish accent for me and said something unintelligible. She went to great lengths to explain to me that her heritage was Irish, and bored me to tears. It was the fake accent that did it though. If she'd been a man, I would have punched her there and then.
Wa-hey, tempers flaring lads! Now it's your turn to steady on!
Firstly thanks Fishmonger for the felicitations.
Next, why is it ugly and obnoxious to have an opinion and discuss things?
Next, the usual Yankee guilt-trip paranoia coming out here. I mentioned that it was Americans who made the first few comments, not because they were Americans but because they were non-Irish. The same comments from me would apply to any Scots- English- Welsh- Australian- New Zealand- Canadian- or South African-born persons of no directly traceable Irish descent.
Then, what YOU call ITM, or the music, is yes, predominantly, but not exclusively, Irish - and anyway music is or should be international.
St. Patrick is the NATIONAL Saint of Ireland. Paddy's day is celebrated as a national day. It may be different in the US, but that's how I see it.
Next, yes, good question DD, am I celebrating by attending a parade? in all honesty, probably yes. Where I'm from in Glasgow, catholics used to turn out to see 12th of July Orange parades. So are they celebrating protestant ascendancy in the north of Ireland?
What it coms down to is this: as I'm not actually Irish or have Irish ancestry from about the 19th century only, not any more recent, I wouldn't actively make arrangements to celebrate St Paddy's Day. But if I did drink beer, and a bunch of my mates who were actually Irish invited me to come out and celebrate with them, I wouldn't be so rude as to say "No, I'm Scottish"
Then also, if participating in the culture of other countries is what you are about, as I live in England, surely, as I walk on English soil every day, my kids were born here, etc., I should celebrate St. George's Day as well? I'd rather chop my own legs off and fry them up in a white wine sauce with challottes and mushrooms than do that.
"That would be dangerous, getting the wrong idea of me"
Oh, I'm so scared!
"If she were a man, I would have punched her there and then".
Gee, hope you've got a generous insurer, Dow.
Actually, I've changed my mind now about everything I wrote. I see Dow has come on board. Whatever he says, i'll just agree with.
Now, I'd better read what he wrote.....
You talking so much sense today Key, you make me want to cry with relief. May that same freak gust of wind on the station platform waft you gently into the arms of a beautiful girl
There's something wrong here. Now Dow is agreeing with ME. The bit you think I'm talking sense - is that when I said: I'd rather chop my own legs off and fry them up in a white wine sauce with challottes and mushrooms ...?
Dow, your story of the drunk gal faking the brogue and proclaiming her "Irishness" to you made me laugh. It reminds me of several times I have watched my Irish-born friends endure endless recitations of family trees by drunks who are desperate to prove the legitimacy of their blood lines. To watch my friends eyes slowly glaze over as soon they hear "my grandmother was from Dublin!" is hilarious.
But what it really comes down to is the search for "tribe" that exists in many people - especially those born of transplanted immigrants. It is extremely obvious in my country where we regularly hyphenate our identity; Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, African-Americans, etc, etc. I grew up in an ethnically mixed neighborhood, and I loved it. But I have to admit, the first time I visited Waterford where most of my roots come from, I felt and inexplicable sense of connection and sameness to be around all those people who looked like me. So, this Saint Patrick's day, for people like KML and Dow who are very secure in their sense identity, have pity on those of us who continually seek out our sense of "tribe" - especially on this holiday.
Hmm. You see, I find all this thing of tribal identity fascinating. Identity theory and the negotiation of multiple identities in immigrant communities is itself a whole massive research topic which lots of clever people have written lots of very interesting stuff on, particularly during the last 10 years. I've read some of it myself over the last few months. But my point is this: there's a difference between people seeking to identify with groups and communities by 1) actually learning stuff of genuine cultural value, and actually going to the place and immersing yourself in it, and 2) adopting a fake identity for one day just because it seems cool, even when you know nothing about it, and have no interest in learning about it. It sounds to me like you're a #1 - you're delving deeply in an attempt to learn something about yourself. You're being real about it. You're seeking the truth, and you're probably prepared to find out that there will be negatives as well as positives. I think that's a great thing to have in a human being. #2 people are very different. They're not being real. They're being fake because it's the in thing to be. They do it because everyone else does and they don't question it. They're sheep.
Anyway, it seems you understand that I haven't been saying that you shouldn't celebrate SPD if you're not Irish, so I feel like I'm preaching to the converted
Nah, just joking. But I kinda feel it must be something lacking in US, in particular, society, more than just tribalism per se, that makes people feel the need to belong to a "tribe" as you put it. I don't quite know what it is, but my suspicions rest on something along the lines of suburbanisation of society and consumerism and capitalism and WallMart and so on, reducing peoples' identity...I can't quite put my finger on it, sorry.
Also other things you can be proud of - job, sporting and/or artistic/musical achievements - if you have them, you'll be more secure about your own identity and you're less likely to feel the need to identify with 10th generation stuff like Paddy's Day parades and so on.
Just picked up dow's last contribution - obviously a faster typer than me. Gritting teeth while trying to spit out "I agree"....
The bit about it being cool: the Irish are obviously cool and trendy these days, but fads can recede like the tide going out. It wasn't that long ago that Irish were regarded as intellectually inferior ( - needless to say wrongly. But I'm saying it anyway to distance myself from the notion.) So be careful if you're just a blow-in to "Irishness"
I think it's a colonial thing, Key. It's similar over here in Australia. For example, people from the US identify with Aussies in a very different way to they do with the British: they actually see themselves as colonial brethren vis-a-vis Britain, and particularly the English. One example of this in action is something that happened the other day when I was driving a tourist bus. There were some English people and some American people to be picked up from the airport. The English people came through the gates first. They had to wait for the Americans. The English were very angry that they had to wait so long. The Americans were a bit embarrassed that their flight had been slightly delayed. None of these people realised that I was English. The English people took it out on me and gave me a piece of their mind. They said "where we come from in England, we have standards", not realising that I came from the same place. The Americans stood up for me and argued with the English, telling them it obviously wasn't my fault their flight was delayed. I dropped off the English first at their hotel (I wanted to get rid of them). When they had gone, the Americans said "don't worry about them - you're amongst friends... we're your colonial brothers", because they didn't realise I wasn't Aussie (although anyone who knows me will tell you I don't sound Aussie in the slightest, but never mind). So I got an interesting insight into stereotypes and how people view themselves when people perceive that there's a culture clash when actually there's not. Anyway, what was my point? I'm sure I had one...
Dow, have you ever driven tour buses for American College Basketball teams? I've been over there twice on basketball tours. Australia is a marvelous country. One year we had a Navajo girl on our team. When some Aboriginal kids from Caines met her, they couldn't wait to share stories of mutual connection and common experiences with her. She was treated like a celebrity. Again, a sense of human tribe that is powerfully felt.
Well, if I was going to attach myself to a "tribe", it would have to be from Cornwall or Devon. I did some research as to where, in Ireland or the U.K., the most people with my last name lived. The result was Cornwall or Devon. And It was by a pretty large margin. No place else came close. They were fishermen & farmers too. Some things never change.
So, any holidays celebrated in Cornwall/Devon that I may not know about?
bloody loads of them! http://www.cornwall-calling.co.uk/folklore-and-legend/saints.htm
Interesting stuff there, guys, about shared experiences producing a kinship bond.
And here we are discussing all this while the world's stock markets are crashing before our very eyes.....
To be honest Dow, I thought you sounded a bit Aussie. Sort of Aussie mixed with posh Geordie = uncannily Irish sounding. I'm surprised your friends haven't said anything.
Everyone says I don't sound one little bit Aussie, including all my mates back home. Nor would I want to, with your horrid, twangy, nasal vowels, eugh youse are like an out of tune fiddle
As a half Irish mongrel American, tonight after my supper of CB and C I'll be running through some of my favorite tunes on guitar (in standard tuning in no particular order--tunes not chords):
Wise Maid
Trip to Durrow (hard on guitar)
Sligo Maid
Bag of Spuds (fun to play on guitar)
Cooley's Reel
Castle Kelly
King of the Fairies (my current fave hornpipe)
Morning Star (in Emin--thanks again Dow)
Martin Wynne's #2
Musical Priest
The Banshee (easy on guitar)
Happy SPD gw
I can play Castle Kelly but that's it from your list.
I'll have to look at The Banshee. I've always liked Cooley's Reel too.
And unless one of my buds calls me tonight, I'm having spaghetti. We're all kinda pickled already. lol
If there were any Yank "Plastic Paddies" on here all they'd need to do is read one or two lines and they'd be well on their way to curing that, to seeking being a part of something greater than themselves by earnestly studying the culture and music. For crying out loud.
...and the reason why Yanks all seek to identify with the culture of their ancestry is because the only true natives in this coutnry are the ones currently running casinos on reservations. Duh.
Happy St. Patrick's Day
Happy St. Patrick's Day
Eat, drink, be merry
BUT BE SAFE.
Chris
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I'm not celebrating it till next week...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
But... St. Patrick's Day is over already... Didn't the pope move it this year to the 15th so it wouldn't clash with holy week?
So, we ate, drank, played tunes, and had general merriment yesterday!
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Reverend
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Yes, but if he can move it what's wrong with me holding off till next week to celebrate, eh? Besides, tomorrow is the 17th and so many folks were confused here that we've decided that if the 15th is OK by the pope, then next Tuesday is OK by me...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
No, I'm not joking, but that should have read ~ "then next Tuesday is OK by us."
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Dang, today is SUNDAY!
The local brewpub is celebrating today because they figured they'd better attendance than on a monday.
doh!!
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
So there I was with my three boys at the Phoenix St Patrick's day parade watching the various dance schools, fire trucks, Irish Wolfhound clubs and even Star Wars characters(?) marching happily down 3rd street. Then, in the middle of all this festiveness, I see two shabby dinosaurs carrying their giant political banner which would have been apropos for a march back in 1986 -
ENGLAND GET OUT OF IRELAND!
"The last of the British troops left last year!" I bellowed startling others around me. The two dim-wits glance over at me with a bit of surprise, "Paisley and McGuinness shook hands and the Good Friday Peace accord was signed ten years ago! I bellow even louder. The two dim-wits attempt a glare of intimidation at me, but stare right back. "You two are clueless idiots" I bark much to the dismay of several families around me.
Now I suppose I could have handled this situation a bit better. However, I am so sick to death of my fellow "Irish Americans" who have never walked the streets of the Falls Road or tried to raise a family in Shankill, talking tough, making threats and carrying political banners about a subject they (in general) Know f-all about. And now, almost a year after the last English boots have left the province, after the UVF, IRA, UDA, etc. have put aside their weapons, and TEN years after the power sharing agreements were signed, these two dumb-asses go merrily marching down my public streets with a giant banner that dredges up all those old feelings of sectarian hatred once again. Ignorant Fools.
Apologies if this post spoils anyone's Saint Patrick's day joy.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
~ & in Phoenix, Arizona! Do you get many visitors from Utah? You have more hupspa than I do, but you spoke what I would have thought...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
What's the point in celebrating the national day of a foreign country? I see some of the previous contributors to this thread are Americans. For example, I wouldn't celebrate an American national day, and why should I?
If if were to celebrate yesterday (as, yes, that is the date Paddy's day was moved to by papal decree this year) surely there is no earthly reason why I shouldn't celebrate Hungary's national day, Mar 15th?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Day
As it happens, I made quite good money for playing two St Patrick's gigs on consecutive nights, though, so I'm not complaining.
I'm just not going to pretend I'm Irish around this time of year though.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Certain experiences have kicked the hupspa out of me, at least about some things... It is very difficult to question the unreasonable, like any extreme, they hear nothing but what they want to and they are always right... Is it any wonder that such people generally make lousy musicians ~ something to do with not being able to hear...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Hey, ease up Key, I used to help celebrate Greece and things Greek in Dublin annually...
It was wonderful, especially the music, dance and food...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I might get on your sh*t-list with this, but we do celebrate the 4th of July here annually, with a Jacob's Join and a bit of other Americana, in the way of dance and food, and Robbie Burns day too... But, we don't dress up in cowboy hats and boots or any of that other paraphernalia, or in kilts and gowns for the celebration of the poet Burns...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
There is a town in ND that celebrates August the Deuce, originally a holiday brought from Iceland, where no one celebrates it.
Maybe it's an Irish-American thing, sentimentality and all.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Cinco de Mayo is big business in many parts of the US. Most Americans erroneously think it's Mexico's Independence Day, when in reality it celebrates a battle of Mexican Farmers over French Army regulars in the Battle of La Puebla. No one cares. What it really means today is huge business for Corona, Tecate, and Doritos. Frankly, Saint Patrick's day isn't too far removed from those big business motives either.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Jusa Nutter Eejit, way to go! I feel a bit weird with some of the "We're Irish (American)!" rhetoric, and I would much prefer to celebrate peace and healing, than dredge up old quarrels. I'm glad you said something.
KML, I suppose we celebrate in part because we've had so many Irish immigrants come and become part of the fabric of society. People probably also just want an excuse to be rowdy and get plastered....sigh. I think a lot of Christians ought celebrate St. Patrick, considering how the Irish churches and monasteries kept Christianity and a whole lot of intellectual material alive through the Dark Ages and reintroduced them to a newly Germanic Europe.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by jasonb1985
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Not all Americans are eejits, Eejit. Some of us do know a little about Mexican history--and Irish history too. But you're correct that most everything in the US that's celebratory en masse has turned into a big business day for the sale of related items. In general, however, I would say that St. Patrick's Day and Cinco de Mayo are largely ignored by the vast majority of Americans. That's unfortunate, IMHO. I think we need more stuff to celebrate in the US--more stuff that brings people together to dance, play music and have a good time... why not?
And hey Fishmonger, see you at the Ruth McGowan's...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by gw
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I and some others had a surprisingly good night of it, playing in a pub in one of the many parts of County Durham that lie outside of the known world. Booklets were issued with the words of the usual suspects. Someone was there who could sing and play guitar, which was what suited the audience, and I would rather hear someone sing When Irish Eyes Are Smiling competently than people playing tunes badly, not that we are incapable of doing the latter of course. Others from the audience sang, in one case astonishingly well. Free beer, some £.
The place is big enough to have an events-size upper room but is in a small village, so periodically they have theme nights to attract punters out there, simple as that. Paddy's Night fits the bill. I think the next one's Elizabethan.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
"When Irish Eyes Are Smiling" ~ Wow! ~ everything you've been saying about that part of the North really is true...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
& theme nights too... Email me a list and maybe we'll try to sneak in un-noticed, disquised as Cumbrian hoodies...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
What would you know about Cumbrian hoodies, ceol?
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Ease up? Why should I? I'm making what I see as a perfectly valid point. I don't celebrate Greece or Iceland or Mexico days. Not because I'm "scrooge" about these days but because I'm not Greek or Icelandic or Mexican or Irish, so those days are not part of me displaying my identity.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
What will you do on International Curmudgeon Day, KML?
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
ceol -I should imagine that St. Patrick's Day's probably in there with The Mexican Day Of The Dead, Dallas, Chinese New Year, Dambusters, Oktoberfest, Jewel In The Crown, The Great Storm Of 1987 and The Fall Of Thatcher, in the theme list. But I did not study it in detail.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
See ya there gw. I'm looking forward to it!
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Here in SF we celebrate holidays from other countries every weekend it seems. Usually they're cultural events and it's a chance to taste see and hear various aspects of the particular country or culture. The biggest ones are Chinese New Years and Paddy's Day because they both have parades and they each have a large community in the area.
In the 90s the Paddy's Day season was great for trad music because the SF Celtic Festival was happening and it would import loads of musicians from Ireland into the area. The Festival itself wasn't as good as the residual impact of having Irish musicians in the area looking for the odd gig and filling out the local sessions.
Currently Paddy’s Day isn’t having the same effect without the festival. Unless you’re into the parade thing and the pubs filling up with people who are Irish-for-a-day and want to get hammered – it’s a non-event.
We managed to get talked into doing one of the local pubs on Paddy’s Day, but I’m not looking forward to it. I’m sure the pub will fill up with people whose interest in Ireland and its culture is limited to how much they can drink and how rowdy they can get. They seem to think Irish people drink and yell as loud as they can at each other all the time. This is the furthest thing from the truth as far as my experience goes. Well, the yelling at each other part anyway.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
So there ye go. You express a perfectly reasoned preference on here for doing or not doing something and someone has a pop calling you a curmudgeon. So just because it doesn't fit in with vox populus on here you get slagged. How reasonable an argument is that? At least I know at what level I'm dealing with now.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Easy now, KML, he was just yanking your chain, taking the p*ss, whatever you want to call it. Note the smiley face.
Now, if he had wanted to insult you, you would know it. If there's one thing that we Americans excel at, it's insulting other nationalities. [insert big self-deprecating smiley here]
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by mickray
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
After reading all of theses comments, I am glad that I have already committed to playing my acoustic bass fiddle that evening at a musician's circle at a local Southern Baptist church.
The Minister of Education at the church hosts this musician's circle on the third Monday of every month and this month the third Monday is St. Patrick's Day.
This Southern Baptist preacher likes to play guitar, banjo, and fiddle in his spare time (as well as thinking that he can sing).
I became acquainted with him because I play bass fiddle with a group of people who meet once a month to play the type of music which people used to play at home to amuse and bemuse themselves with before we had computers, television, radio, telegraphs, trains, electricity, and other so-called "modern" conveniences.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
And there was I thinking they drank strychnine and garlanded themselves with rattlesnakes.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Jusa, I will repeat this for your benefit. The north of Ireland is an illegally occupied and oppressed statelet. Well done the boyos with the banner, if there were more like them then the return to a united 32 Counties Republic would be a reality rather than a dream. I'll bet that if a foreign power occupied a usa state that you would be the one with the banner.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
The U.S. is currently under an illegal occupation. It's been overthrown by the neo-cons in the Bush Administration. I see people carrying banners about it all the time. I think I've even carried the banners sans the shabby dinosaur outfits. Come to think of it, I've seen the people the U.S. supposedly "liberated" in Iraq carrying similar signs.
Sorry about getting so preoccupied with this point... carry on...
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
KML - I apologize. I was only teasing. I thought you would just have a laugh about it. I was wrong. Strayaway - it's one thing for somebody who lives in Norn Iron to have a banner. It's another altogether for an American to sport an IRA shirt who has never been there to do it - especially in the face of so much progress towards reconciliation. Romanticized notions while safe in the comfort of distant boredom. I'm sure we all wish for a united Ireland. I apologize if I have caused offense.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
No offence taken, Jusa, while I agree that it may well be a case of romanticised notions by the bannermen, on the other hand, they may have had the cruel realities of oppression forced upon their relatives/friends living here. You should have had a reasoned debate with them, that always sorts out the boys from the men, IMHO.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I'm looking forward to St. Patrick's Day. My middle school orchestra will learn The Haunted House reel. My big regret is that our regular Monday session has been cancelled so the pub owner can bring in a rock band. :( I had really been looking forward to it.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Fair enough Strayaway. But if you wear a shirt that says Tiocfaidh ár lá - (like my guy in the parade) you should at least be able to pronounce it correctly don't you think? (he couldn't)
Being politically concerned is one thing, but playing a fool is another.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Don't worry, we know all about fools being politically concerned over here. Have a good one.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
strayaway, I love your idealistic optimistic attitude, but 'reasoned debate' is very difficult when the issues are so emotive. They usually last about five minutes, until the good intentions wear thin and people start getting accused of being fascists, extremists, terrorists, and all the other tedious over-used insults.
IMHO, nobody needs to do anything to 'remove the illegal occupation' of N. I. The border will just quietly dissolve away by itself, as have other contested borders in the European Union.
Again, IMHO, the tragic conflict in Ireland is a 'looking back' matter. We're all going to be focussing on the 'looking ahead' problems. Ireland has a relatively low population density. It might well welcome another few million immigrants. But what happens when the indigenous culture starts to be more and more diluted and becomes overwhelmed ? Then the backlash starts ?
I think people everywhere tend to be generous and kind. If a sick starving foreign woman walks into a village, someone will have compassion and take her in. But if there are ten more the next week, and then hundreds more...?
The local Welsh people where I live are being displaced, almost like ethnic cleansing, not by poor refugees, but by wealthy foreigners who can afford to pay astounding high prices for houses and land. There is bitterness and anger about this.
Happy St.Patrick's Day !
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
And you, wolf.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by strayaway
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Nicholas, who drinks strychnine and adorns themselves with rattlesnakes? The Southern Baptists?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Happy St. Patrick's Day to all the genuine, culturally Irish people. May you have a great day of celebrations. To all the Plastic Paddies, may you meet your end horribly in a motorway pile-up.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
PS thank you to Jusa Nutter Eejit, the world needs more people like you. I think if I'd been there I would have bought you drinks for the rest of the week.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Dow, I'm speechless.
[shaking my head slowly as I go off to bed]
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Happy St. Patrick's Day to all!
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by jasonb1985
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Oh, to clarify on being uncomfortable with some of the "We're Irish (American)!" rhetoric, I don't mean the rhetoric of Irish people, I mean the rhetoric of Americans who claim to be Irish, sometimes without seeming to have a clue. I'm very in favor of political activism on a large number of issues, but poorly informed nationalist sentiment scares me a bit. Too much blood has been spilled based on such sentiments (all around the world) to take misguided nationalism or political fervor without knowledge and wisdom lightly.
Along with Jusa Nutter Eejit, I mean no offense Strayaway. I am an American, and I defer to the Irish on this board to tell it like it is and instruct the rest of us. I just want us Americans over here to shut up and listen before we run our mouths off about what we haven't lived through.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by jasonb1985
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Hear hear.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I wandered into a Wal-Mart this week. Multiple isles full of St. Paddy props and assorted plastics eggs, chocolate bunnies galore. I felt like I was on the set for a Tim Burton movie.
If I put on the shamrock bead, glasses, underwear and green cat in the hat gear, I would look like an pimping leprechaun.
cultural whores, I swear!!
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Sir Dungsmere
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
285, 23, Hours. 51, Minutes ...until xmas.
But who's counting?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Sir Dungsmere
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
fauxcelt: That was a little wind-up - I think actually it's a sect in Tennessee and thereabouts. At the end of St. Mark's Gospel there's a promise that believers will not be harmed by drinking poison and will pick up snakes (i.e. with immunity), and they major on putting this to the test. I saw it on TV.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0021-8715(197410%2F12)87%3A346%3C293%3ARPIASA%3E2.0.CO%3B2-B
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I LOVE ST PATRICKS DAY! Here in Ireland we had a festival yesterday and an even bigger festival is coming today! It's 10AM and on the Guinness already
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Stíofán
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Apology accepted, Jusa Nutter Eejit.
But there are still many unresolved issues in the north of Ireland as yet. I doubt if we've heard the last of it.
Some of you may know already St. Patrick was most likely not Irish at all, but a Romano-Briton from a wealthy family, then as a cyouth captured by Irish pirates, sold as a slave and made to tend sheep in possibly the Wicklow Mts, where he had time enough to contemplate creation but also injustice such as he had suffered. He finally escaped, made it to Brittanny (Armorica) before returning to Britain, where he entered the church. He eventually returned to Ireland as a missionary, setting up monasteries and churches, which went on to prosper. Around this time and shortly after the Roman presence southern Britain waned and was submerged by Angle, Saxon and Jutish maurauders from what is now North Germany and South Denmark, creating turmoil and destabilising the civilisation the Romans had created. Although there were raids on the Irish coast, mostly Ireland was spared of these depredations, enabling Celtic Chrisitianity to grow and flourish, and finally to expand. Firstly, By St. Columbus to Iona on the west coast of Scotland (although St Ninian had been to Galloway previously), then the rest of Scotland then onto Lindisfarne. Missionaries from "civilised" Ireland went on to evangelise throughout Europe: France, Germany and Switzerland, during the Dark Ages. Celtic Christianity finally succumbed to Roman Christianity at the Synod of Whitby in 633AD, where St Augustine of Canterbury and his mates from the Roman church won because, among other things, they had brought along more bits of dead saints with them (relics.)
Maybe youse ought to remember the real history of what you're celebrating before you pour that 12th pint of green lager down your cakehole today, and vomit up on the carpet, thinking thank god for Saint Patrick who saved Western civilisation, this is what I'm celebrating.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCbuRA_D3KU&feature=email
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Steve Shaw
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
St. Patrick's Battalion, the Irish who fought with the Mexicans against the U.S.
http://www.zmag.org/Sustainers/content/2002-03/17z.cfm
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
My understanding, KML, of the reason for the outcome of the Synod of Whitby was more to do with the Roman Church more than hinting that if the Celtic Church didn't accede to demands, then there just might have been an invasion from somewhere close by.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
There was *massive* 19thC Irish emigration to the US and Australia (in particular) in the wake of the repression, famines, poverty and the bitter fallout from several failed rebellions. There was a clear and stated intention among many of these Irish to make a country for free Irish people in the "New World", having lost hope of it ever happening in Ireland. They have every reason to celebrate their survival and eventual flourishing, and St Patrick's Day has traditionally been a focus for that. In my own little town in Australia, there was - still is - a special mass and picnic races
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Bren
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
DD - yes, you're probably right, at the end of the day. These things are most easily resolved by a threat of suprior military might.
But the ecclesiastical *justification*, I'm led to believe, was because the Roman church, from the Council of Nicea (also regarded by some as a sham) had the true path to God via St. Peter:
"Wilfrid, by clever argument, was able to show that the Roman ways stemmed directly from St. Peter, holder to the keys of heaven, and a superior authority to the Irish Columba advocated by bishop Colman"
from:
http://www.wilfrid.com/Wilfrid_pilgrimage/Whitby_synod.htm
and this was the justification, and thus took the form at the Synod of having more relics of saints to display.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Exactly, Bren; and I've heard it said in thanks on St Patrick's day to Australia for giving us a place to live in, when others would not. Australia reportedly has the highest proportion of population of any country outside Ireland claiming Irish descent - n.b. as a proportion of the population, even greater than the United States. Why should Australians who have this heritage, or 'cultural' inheritance in their families, their religion and their towns, regions or cities, be made to feel they should deny this, or they have no right to identification with something like St Patrick's day, in whatever context they identify with it.
I think the sort of denial of that wish which might be put in the way of Australians, comes from some particularly mean mindsets. Happy St Patrick's Day - (no I didn't get to go to the parade.)
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Hmm, KML, I think that if the Celtic Church had been the dominant genre now, that there mightn't be the sorts of problems there are now. The Celtic Church sounds like it might have been a more 'cool' version of catholicism, with, what I understand were its origins in gnosticism and a comfortable amalgamation with christianity.
Do I get excommunicated for this?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
So basically, St. Patrick was born in Britain, spent much of his life in Ulster and was in opposition to the Roman Catholic church?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Ceratonia
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
The churches weren't in opposition then, I understand. The opposition only came when it became political expedient to do so.
Otherwise, yep, ceretonia, pretty much right - from what I've read anyway. Except that St Patrick, being an upper-class Briton at the time, could well have been a person of Roman as well as British descent.
I won't mention the difference between British and English descent.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Yes, that's what I've been led to believe, DD.
'Cooler' ? - what, are you thinking of the punk-style tonsured haircuts the monks have?
I think it was more holistic, anyway:
http://english.glendale.cc.ca.us/christ.html
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Ceratonia, are you suggesting that St. Patrick was a forerunner of the Orange Order?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Well, I did see that Ian Paisley was proposing today should be a public holiday in Norn Ireland?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Ceratonia
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Well, partly, KML (sorry about the metaphor). Actually, I was thinking about their practice of voluntary celebacy, or no celebacy at all, can't quite recall. That didn't go down too well in the Roman Church at the time apparently.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Does that mean that there'd be a lambeg parade with the marchers wearing big tall orange hats?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I grew up in NYC - the "melting pot." I'm not Irish, but I am an "-ish". and that's the thing about growing up in NYC and especially the US. Everyone is from somewhere else and we hang onto our cultures. But, we don't just revel in our own cultures, we often celebrate other cultures as well. Sometimes in the city there is a parade every weekend celebrating a different cultural group.
I don' t live in the city any more, but I was there just yesterday. We had a blast. But, even up here in the wilds of Western Massachusetts people celebrate their cultures all the time and other cultures as well.
St. Patrick's Day is just one of those celebrations.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
"St. Patrick's Day is just one of those celebrations."
Exactly the point I was trying to make above. That's ALL it is to many people with no knowledge of what it it's about.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
That's all it is to many people, to many people it is more, to some it is nothing at all. What I find interesting is the premise put by some people that if you weren't born in Ireland you can't somehow honestly attend a St Patrick's Day parade if you want to - whether you identify with Irish heritage or not.
On that basis, St Patrick himself wouldn't be able to attend the parade, because he was apparently a Romano-Briton, born in Britain. He would be a "plastic patrick" relegated to an icon on a car dashboard.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
"....whether you identify with Irish heritage or not..."
Does that include playing at sessions?
My original point was that although I might play Irish music, I wouldn't celebrate St. Patrick's day as such because I'm not Irish. I still stand by that. I'd go and watch a parade with a free conscience though.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
This started as such a simple thread.
Wish each other a happy St. Patrick's Day. Now I read all this crap about how Americans are supposed to deny our heritage because we weren't born in Ireland. It's almost as stupid as the idea we shouldn't play ITM because we weren't born in Ireland. p*ss off ye gobsh*tes!!! LOL
Please get over it. It's ugly and obnoxious.
Sincerely,
An English-Irish-Scottish-Dutch-American who loves ITM
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
So, KML, are you 'celebrating' the day by going to watch the parade, or not?
You can certainly play itm whether you identify with Irish heritage or not - many do of course, including a good proportion of the posters on this board, no doubt.
So, whether one identifies with Irish heritage or not, why should people be made to feel somehow inferior by going to a St Patrick's day parade, just because one wasn't born in Ireland? What is the difference?
To me, it is like saying that if you weren't born in Ireland, then you really shouldn't be playing itm or going to itm sessions.
I haven't ever heard people born in Ireland say that. I also haven't ever heard people born in Ireland say that if you weren't then you really shouldn't be going to the St Patricks parade.
It seems that it is only people who weren't born in Ireland who tell other people who weren't born in Ireland that they shouldn't go. What a lot of bollox. Wannabe elitists I think.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
KML - I never said that the celebration shouldn't include knowing what the day is about. But, there is nothing wrong in joining in. It's a day of pride and other people joining in add to that pride. Everyone wants to be with you on that day.
When I invite someone to celelbrate one of my own "-ish" holidays - they are joining in my pride and learning more about me.
On a those special days we learn about each other - make the world a better place - celebrate diversity - and all that other silly stuff.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Remember: Everybody wants to be irish on St-Patrick's Day...
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by québécois
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
"There are only two types of people in the world - the Irish and those that want to be Irish"
- George Bernard Shaw.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Oh my God people are missing the point here so wildly it's bloody ridiculous. Are you absolutely totally *stupid* or what? Dunderheads.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Going to watch a St. Patrick Day parade does *not* make you a Plastic Paddy, regardless of your nationality/where you were born/whatever. Just so that's clear, ok?
Now, to all the Plastic Paddies, may you be blown by a freak gust of wind off a station platform into the path of an oncoming train, and may your bodies be so mangled that it is impossible for your next of kin to identify you in the aftermath.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Patrick'S
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
People here are making the points they want to, Dow.
It's good that you make yourself clear, Dow, we wouldn't want people to get the wrong idea of you, eh.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
No. That would be dangerous, getting the wrong idea of me. I called round the pub on Sunday night after the parade for a beer, and some drunken bogan Aussie woman came up to me, and because I have a soft, lilting accent, she assumed I was Irish, and went all starry eyed: "I love the Irish" she said, as though there weren't any bad Irish people in existence, and then she actually put on a fake Irish accent for me and said something unintelligible. She went to great lengths to explain to me that her heritage was Irish, and bored me to tears. It was the fake accent that did it though. If she'd been a man, I would have punched her there and then.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
There are folks that come here to visit and wear cowboy hats and boots, but they aren't REAL cowboys. Oh, the shame...
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Wa-hey, tempers flaring lads! Now it's your turn to steady on!
Firstly thanks Fishmonger for the felicitations.
Next, why is it ugly and obnoxious to have an opinion and discuss things?
Next, the usual Yankee guilt-trip paranoia coming out here. I mentioned that it was Americans who made the first few comments, not because they were Americans but because they were non-Irish. The same comments from me would apply to any Scots- English- Welsh- Australian- New Zealand- Canadian- or South African-born persons of no directly traceable Irish descent.
Then, what YOU call ITM, or the music, is yes, predominantly, but not exclusively, Irish - and anyway music is or should be international.
St. Patrick is the NATIONAL Saint of Ireland. Paddy's day is celebrated as a national day. It may be different in the US, but that's how I see it.
Next, yes, good question DD, am I celebrating by attending a parade? in all honesty, probably yes. Where I'm from in Glasgow, catholics used to turn out to see 12th of July Orange parades. So are they celebrating protestant ascendancy in the north of Ireland?
What it coms down to is this: as I'm not actually Irish or have Irish ancestry from about the 19th century only, not any more recent, I wouldn't actively make arrangements to celebrate St Paddy's Day. But if I did drink beer, and a bunch of my mates who were actually Irish invited me to come out and celebrate with them, I wouldn't be so rude as to say "No, I'm Scottish"
Then also, if participating in the culture of other countries is what you are about, as I live in England, surely, as I walk on English soil every day, my kids were born here, etc., I should celebrate St. George's Day as well? I'd rather chop my own legs off and fry them up in a white wine sauce with challottes and mushrooms than do that.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
"That would be dangerous, getting the wrong idea of me"
Oh, I'm so scared!
"If she were a man, I would have punched her there and then".
Gee, hope you've got a generous insurer, Dow.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Actually, I've changed my mind now about everything I wrote. I see Dow has come on board. Whatever he says, i'll just agree with.
Now, I'd better read what he wrote.....
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
You talking so much sense today Key, you make me want to cry with relief. May that same freak gust of wind on the station platform waft you gently into the arms of a beautiful girl
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
There's something wrong here. Now Dow is agreeing with ME. The bit you think I'm talking sense - is that when I said: I'd rather chop my own legs off and fry them up in a white wine sauce with challottes and mushrooms ...?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I guess the meat would be nice and lean with all the running you do. I'd pass on the feet though
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Dow, your story of the drunk gal faking the brogue and proclaiming her "Irishness" to you made me laugh. It reminds me of several times I have watched my Irish-born friends endure endless recitations of family trees by drunks who are desperate to prove the legitimacy of their blood lines. To watch my friends eyes slowly glaze over as soon they hear "my grandmother was from Dublin!" is hilarious.
But what it really comes down to is the search for "tribe" that exists in many people - especially those born of transplanted immigrants. It is extremely obvious in my country where we regularly hyphenate our identity; Irish-Americans, Italian-Americans, African-Americans, etc, etc. I grew up in an ethnically mixed neighborhood, and I loved it. But I have to admit, the first time I visited Waterford where most of my roots come from, I felt and inexplicable sense of connection and sameness to be around all those people who looked like me. So, this Saint Patrick's day, for people like KML and Dow who are very secure in their sense identity, have pity on those of us who continually seek out our sense of "tribe" - especially on this holiday.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Hmm. You see, I find all this thing of tribal identity fascinating. Identity theory and the negotiation of multiple identities in immigrant communities is itself a whole massive research topic which lots of clever people have written lots of very interesting stuff on, particularly during the last 10 years. I've read some of it myself over the last few months. But my point is this: there's a difference between people seeking to identify with groups and communities by 1) actually learning stuff of genuine cultural value, and actually going to the place and immersing yourself in it, and 2) adopting a fake identity for one day just because it seems cool, even when you know nothing about it, and have no interest in learning about it. It sounds to me like you're a #1 - you're delving deeply in an attempt to learn something about yourself. You're being real about it. You're seeking the truth, and you're probably prepared to find out that there will be negatives as well as positives. I think that's a great thing to have in a human being. #2 people are very different. They're not being real. They're being fake because it's the in thing to be. They do it because everyone else does and they don't question it. They're sheep.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Anyway, it seems you understand that I haven't been saying that you shouldn't celebrate SPD if you're not Irish, so I feel like I'm preaching to the converted
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Yes, I pity you.
Nah, just joking. But I kinda feel it must be something lacking in US, in particular, society, more than just tribalism per se, that makes people feel the need to belong to a "tribe" as you put it. I don't quite know what it is, but my suspicions rest on something along the lines of suburbanisation of society and consumerism and capitalism and WallMart and so on, reducing peoples' identity...I can't quite put my finger on it, sorry.
Also other things you can be proud of - job, sporting and/or artistic/musical achievements - if you have them, you'll be more secure about your own identity and you're less likely to feel the need to identify with 10th generation stuff like Paddy's Day parades and so on.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Just picked up dow's last contribution - obviously a faster typer than me. Gritting teeth while trying to spit out "I agree"....
The bit about it being cool: the Irish are obviously cool and trendy these days, but fads can recede like the tide going out. It wasn't that long ago that Irish were regarded as intellectually inferior ( - needless to say wrongly. But I'm saying it anyway to distance myself from the notion.) So be careful if you're just a blow-in to "Irishness"
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I think it's a colonial thing, Key. It's similar over here in Australia. For example, people from the US identify with Aussies in a very different way to they do with the British: they actually see themselves as colonial brethren vis-a-vis Britain, and particularly the English. One example of this in action is something that happened the other day when I was driving a tourist bus. There were some English people and some American people to be picked up from the airport. The English people came through the gates first. They had to wait for the Americans. The English were very angry that they had to wait so long. The Americans were a bit embarrassed that their flight had been slightly delayed. None of these people realised that I was English. The English people took it out on me and gave me a piece of their mind. They said "where we come from in England, we have standards", not realising that I came from the same place. The Americans stood up for me and argued with the English, telling them it obviously wasn't my fault their flight was delayed. I dropped off the English first at their hotel (I wanted to get rid of them). When they had gone, the Americans said "don't worry about them - you're amongst friends... we're your colonial brothers", because they didn't realise I wasn't Aussie (although anyone who knows me will tell you I don't sound Aussie in the slightest, but never mind). So I got an interesting insight into stereotypes and how people view themselves when people perceive that there's a culture clash when actually there's not. Anyway, what was my point? I'm sure I had one...
The need to belong to a "tribe"..
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Dow, have you ever driven tour buses for American College Basketball teams? I've been over there twice on basketball tours. Australia is a marvelous country. One year we had a Navajo girl on our team. When some Aboriginal kids from Caines met her, they couldn't wait to share stories of mutual connection and common experiences with her. She was treated like a celebrity. Again, a sense of human tribe that is powerfully felt.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Right. And then this is the important thing:
***the Aboriginal kids didn't then start calling themselves "Navajo"***
It was about shared experiences and a willingness and genuine interest in learning.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Well, if I was going to attach myself to a "tribe", it would have to be from Cornwall or Devon. I did some research as to where, in Ireland or the U.K., the most people with my last name lived. The result was Cornwall or Devon. And It was by a pretty large margin. No place else came close. They were fishermen & farmers too. Some things never change.
So, any holidays celebrated in Cornwall/Devon that I may not know about?
How about traditional tunes from that area?
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
bloody loads of them!
http://www.cornwall-calling.co.uk/folklore-and-legend/saints.htm
Interesting stuff there, guys, about shared experiences producing a kinship bond.
And here we are discussing all this while the world's stock markets are crashing before our very eyes.....
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Right on! Thanks.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
all this while the world's stock markets are crashing before our very eyes.....
http://www.europe2020.org/IMG/jpg/non_borrowed_reserves.jpg
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Hahaha if you want to attach yourself to a "Cornwall/Devon" tribe, you'd have to be part of Steve Shaw's family!
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Oh bejeezus, the "I hate Lunasa" guy! I remember reading his profile and saying "what the f**k is up with that?!"
NOoooooo!!!
LMAO - too funny
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
To be honest Dow, I thought you sounded a bit Aussie. Sort of Aussie mixed with posh Geordie = uncannily Irish sounding. I'm surprised your friends haven't said anything.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Bren
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Everyone says I don't sound one little bit Aussie, including all my mates back home. Nor would I want to, with your horrid, twangy, nasal vowels, eugh youse are like an out of tune fiddle
And I'm not a Geordie either!
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Maybe I am Irish after all, Bren. Next time I cut myself shaving I'll check to see if the blood runs green and let you know.
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Dow
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
"eugh youse are like an out of tune fiddle"
there it is! I can hear it! Do that again!
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by Bren
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I have enough trouble trying to be an American.
(whaterver that means ???)
But honestly, I'd rather be a statistical anomally.
Somewhere between a libertarian and the prudes.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Sir Dungsmere
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
As a half Irish mongrel American, tonight after my supper of CB and C I'll be running through some of my favorite tunes on guitar (in standard tuning in no particular order--tunes not chords):
Wise Maid
Trip to Durrow (hard on guitar)
Sligo Maid
Bag of Spuds (fun to play on guitar)
Cooley's Reel
Castle Kelly
King of the Fairies (my current fave hornpipe)
Morning Star (in Emin--thanks again Dow)
Martin Wynne's #2
Musical Priest
The Banshee (easy on guitar)
Slàinte
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by gw
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
I haven't a drop of Irish in me...all Swiss German here,
but my middle name is Patrick and I was named after an uncle who is a priest..
go figure
I'm gonna go chase some snakes now
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Happy SPD gw
I can play Castle Kelly but that's it from your list.
I'll have to look at The Banshee. I've always liked Cooley's Reel too.
And unless one of my buds calls me tonight, I'm having spaghetti. We're all kinda pickled already. lol
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
"We're all kinda pickled already..."
Hope you weren't swilling the "Kilt Lifter." That stuff is dangerous
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by gw
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
just a few snaps from last night at the Beaconsfield: http://www.flickr.com/photos/15775043@N00/sets/72157604150283567/
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by RichardB
Re: Happy St. Patrick's Day
Am I glad I missed this nonsense. What a mess.
If there were any Yank "Plastic Paddies" on here all they'd need to do is read one or two lines and they'd be well on their way to curing that, to seeking being a part of something greater than themselves by earnestly studying the culture and music. For crying out loud.
...and the reason why Yanks all seek to identify with the culture of their ancestry is because the only true natives in this coutnry are the ones currently running casinos on reservations. Duh.
# Posted on March 31st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler