Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
He most likely came to play at your session.
When Plan A changes you need a Plan B even if you did not sow up with one. He knows he can come back anytime as long as he does not play.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I tried starting a clinic once, having a little open-door clinic experience with alcoholics and drug addicts, but the problem was that none of the bodhranites could see, hear or perceive that they might have a problem...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Michael, you embarrassed him. He slinked out of the pub with his tail between his legs. Very similar to being at a fine restaurant when you've lost your appetite. There's no point in being there.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I remember a young considerate bodhran player that came to a session we had going and he always muted his bodhran,playing very quietly with his ear up against it. He was actually really good. He didn't play for everything and seemed to get as much pleasure out of just sitting in and listening and sharing in the banter. We had to urge him to bring it out. That kind of consideration needs acknowledgement, and his skill with the bodhran too... This was a case the reverse of yours Michael...if too rare...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Not true Kennedy. The point was, he was never there to listen in the first place. He didn't listen when he was "playing", so why listen whaen he wasn't?
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I don't know what the etiquette is at your session, but I'd rather be helped than asked not to play at all. If I'm asked nicely, I'm ok. Again, it depends upon what you expect of the people playing at the session. But, if someone offered me help, I'd prefer that.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Okay, I'll put it another way---you confronted him with the fact that he was embarrassing himself. Either way, he wouldn't want to stay after that. I'm surprised that you were surprised by him leaving. It doesn't have to do with music, it's an interpersonal issue.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
You could have been more polite about it.
And no, being polite doesn't simply mean not being rude. OK, you didn't say "Hey, can you shut up? You sound crap!", but you could have been nicer about it. You could have dropped hints, like "That's a very loud bodhrán you've got, isn't it?", or "I dunno what happened there, I think we got a bit out of time with each other..."
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think that if anyone is going to loudly pound goat, then they should be prepared for some feedback and not just up and leave when they get any.
I once observed a lady fiddle player, quite good, at our session, and I saw that her bridge was installed backwards. The low part was toward the G string.
I tried to find a diplomatic way to inquire on this, such as, it's backwards did you put it like that for a sound reason, etc.
She acted like I was insulting her playing. Oblivious.
My worst episode was when my guitar player friend's dear wife announced, at one of our rehearsals at his house that she was going to sing the next w/e at an exhibition.
My response was "You're going to sing?" Even though I swear t this day I meant nothing by it, I have yet to live this down.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I was playing bodhran at an open session at a festival about 4 or 5 years ago. During a pause in the music, which I thought sounded great, I turned to a guitar player beside me and complimented his playng. He didn't say a single word. He just glared at me like I was satan himself. "What an a--hole!" I thought. I took my drum and left.
I'm not a fan of bodhran haters but I understand in some certain situations. That wasn't one of them.
The thing is, no one has ever offered advice or tips at any of the sessions I've been to. Just insults. I thought I was pretty good. Not pro but certainly good enough for a local session.
My guitar playing? Well, that's another issue.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
In my classroom, I make my expectations clearly known to all my students. Only then am I comfortable correcting bad behavior or performance. When this situation arises in a group of adults, we have an obligation to make sure we have made clear the expectations for the group. Was that done in this instance?
For an adult to buy a bodhran (even with a Guinness logo on the side) and show up at a session, that takes some effort. I would not want to intentionally embarrass another adult. I guess I'd say it's a tough call.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I've tried on occasion the subtle appraoch to a couple of folks who are not participating... just making 'glorious noise'. I wonder if the lack of ability to perceive that they are not adding to the music influences, come from, is part of the inability to take relatively subtle hints about the effect of their play on everyone else.
I think that it is much better to be direct and polite, than try to be so nice in order that the person's feelings are not hurt, that they don't get the message. If, even then, the person chooses to ignore, then stronger language is required... the ultimate is of course to leave the person to there own devices - see how they like trying to run the session on their own... the publican will then tear a piece out of them...
The softly softly approach strikes me as a very English way of doing things - I believe in being polite... but often these sorts of folks won't get the message unless it's super clear.
This sort of stuff comes up all the time for me in my work life. If people can't handle a bit of honest, polite, feedback then they need to adjust.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Did you ask him to stop play in front of everyone in the room?
He might have been much less embarrassed if you had taken him aside and asked him in private, that would have allowed him to save face; pretend that he just wanted to get a beer, or something and never get back to playing.
arlo
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
No Guinness logo on MY drum. I might buy one like that to hang on the wall, but... LOL
I think I'd been playing for about 5 years when I ran into "Mr. Evil Eyes".
I'd much rather have someone say "Excuse me but this next tune is an air... etc, etc... so you may not want to play for this one." Rather than sit silently and let me make an ass out of myself. And I'd be stoked if someone said, "OK, here's a couple slip jigs, rock out... just don't drown us out!"
And If I was really that bad, offer me card of a bodhran instructor you know. I'd probably buy you a pint for the helpful advice.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It sounds like you really hurt the fellow's pride. It may be that he's new to session culture, and doesn't understand the high value that we place on learning by listening.
That said Llig, if your playing is half as formidable as your posting, I'd love to just sit and listen!
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Folks - this situation clearly isn't meant just for bodhrans - it could have happened to any player of any instrument who is being disruptive or clueless as to the music. I was asked to "stop playing" at the first session I ever attended back in 94. It crushed me. But it also taught me a lesson and motivated me. The next time I returned, I was better prepared. Maybe our hapless bodhran player in Llig's story will respond likewise. Or, maybe he won't ever return. Either way the community benefits.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
No. I think if somebody doesn't return, the community loses.
I took another bodhran players advice. Learn the melodies first. Then only play my drum on tunes that I know rather than "oh, I know that RHYTHM" and look like a fool.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I can understand both parts of this situation, and I wish I had a better answer for either party.
I've recently had to try to play while some really bad perussion was going on (one night it was maracas, for the love of pete) and it really does make playing impossible. You might as well go for a walk, there's no music happening when someone's beating off time. So I can understand the need to address the situation. However, I know why the fellow left - he came to play, he thought he was in the pocket, things were on fire, a grand night at the session, and here comes someone to pour cold water on him. Yeah, he left, and yeah, he probably still feels bad about it.
Is there an answer? Probably. Could you buy him a drink and get into some conversation? That would at least get him away from the music for a little while, allowing some tunes to happen unaided.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Interesting topic, tho. I wish I'd said something like that to the person who CONSTANTLY noodled on the guitar between tunes at the last session I went to - so you're always on a knife-edge about whether he's about to start a tune or not. That same person was really struggling for the key in one piece, and I eventually said "Bb. It's in Bb" but he just didn't pay any attention. Wish I had the bravery to say "shut the f*** up!" but unfortunately my wimpy British genes kick in...because that's not the sort of thing we say, don't you know!
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Know where you're coming from, Mark. Some people may remember that I had a similar problem some while ago. As for me, *I* was the one that left. It just wasn't worth staying, even though the majority there were decent musicians, and good sorts.
I think non-verbal hints are next to useless in these situations - the only recourse is some sort of direct approach.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
On another topic, where has this idea come from that 'folk music is for everyone'?
That strikes me as just a soppy, Americanised, New Agey sort of idea. Never was like that in the past. Music used to be for musicians.
One time, 30 years ago in Sligo, we were having a nice session. Nice and relaxed, though the speeds tended to be on the fast side, as they used to be in Sligo (I think they've slowed down a bit nowadays). And then this English couple came in - he with a piano accordion and she with, as I recall, a bloody tambourine of all things. Anyway, they asked if they could join and were, of course, welcomed. And then he started to play some tunes - *way*, way too fast.
Because they were English (English? Welsh? what's the difference?) I was asked to have a word with them. I talked to the bloke quietly and all I said was "Lovely playing, but do you think you could slow it down a bit?" The two of them left the pub, but not before the chap delivered a shouted tirade of abuse to everyone there.
Sometimes you just can't win. But at least on that occasion the music won, and I hope it did for Michael's session as well.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Perhaps llig is available for hire.
My local session would benefit from someone who could employ some straight talk. I suppose I'll have to give it a try myself because someone's got to speak up...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
At least they didn't start playing hymns, eh... That bit earlier you mentioned ~
"That's RIDICULOUS. Folk music's for everyone."
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by squeezyjoe
If that were the case there wouldn't be any. The majority of 'everybody' can't play a thing, let alone keep a steady beat with their feet or know the difference between a jig and reel, stuck permanently in pop culture 4/4, if they've an ounce of any musical sense about them. Of course, I don't mean any of youse...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Greg the Piano Tuner: I (we) make my expectations clearly known to all ~ Only then am I comfortable correcting bad behavior or performance. When this situation arises in a group of adults, we have an obligation to make sure we have made clear the expectations for the group.
For an adult to buy a bodhran (even with a Guinness logo on the side) and show up at a session, that takes some effort. I would not want to intentionally embarrass another adult. I guess I'd say it's a tough call.
# Posted on March 13th 2008
Brown Creeper: I think that it is much better to be direct and polite ~
# Posted on March 13th 2008
'c': Nice one fishmonger, I'd also 'much rather' ~ friendly advice and direction! ~ whatever the instrument or situation...
Jon Kiparsky: "~and here comes someone to pour cold water on him."
# Posted on March 13th 2008
'c': That's considerate, a wake up call, considering that in most cases where people are drive to respond to something like this it is after that someone has pi*sed all over the session, spoiling it for everyone else... Sometimes such imbalances do need dealing with, but I accept some people are gifted at such things, not all, and not necessarily the first to react. I suspect as has been suggested by others already, that it is better to deal with it sooner than later, before there's anger built up behind it...to deal with it while we're still relatively calm, maybe even, as Greg has said, from the start, from the first welcome and introduction, a responsibility shared by all the regulars instead of heaped up on the shoulders of one person...
Me, I'm a whoos, the only person I've ever told directly to F'k off was a friend, a bodhran player, but I haven't yet refused an initial friendly welcome to anyone just because they carry a round vanity case...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
In my opinion, no matter how you handle the situation.
1- Either you are direct, honest and sincere that your colleague takes offence.
2- Or you so polite and subtle that your colleague never gets the message and goes on storming the session.
For some months our local session was attacked by a loud fiddler unable to keep up the rythm. He stopped suddenly, sometimes played faster and faster. He was very intrusive, he never let a player finish the set. He was terribly out of tune. The guitar player (20 years playing experience) was helpless trying to find out which key he was playing. Anxious to show the tune just learned that same evening, so on and so forth.
Along these months we sent him a variety of hints and polite words such as "This tune is pretty difficult isn't it? Why don't we try to play it all together and a bit slower?" or "I love that tune, when you'll master it it'll be great". WE spoken to him several times about sudden interruptions, intrusions in other's set, hard work concerning tuning, etc.
USELESS. He's so happy about his playing. Not a pinch of auto-criticism. He finally ruined the session. Nobody attended. Some weeks ago he addressed a message to the locals to boost the session. Nobody answer as a sign of tireness and prudence. Then he sent an agressive message looking under his nose at us saying that he's too good for us. Then I answered to him with direct and sharp words. He never came back. I feel pity for this guy cause he is absolutely ignorant about the image he mirrors of himself. This guy is notoriously known in Southern Spain session even further. Everybody fears playing with him and he even has some derogative nicknames here and there (never in our session, to be fair.)
I'm sorry about the long and personal post, but I can't avoid having this mixed feeling about the whole thing. We've spontaneously started the session again without him, but we've maybe lost a friend.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think any musician thats learning their Instrument,, Should
not play loud - It should'nt matter if its a Bodhran, Tin whistle,
Fiddle, or Concert Flute,, I dont beleave they should just sit
their and learn nothing- But Quitly at first till they know 1st-
The Instrument and 2nd till they know the tune Better..
Although there are somp people who dont care about the
music or anyone else in the session,,They just want to impress Others around them.. PUT MUSIC FIRST,,
jim,,,
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think Michael is right.
As a novice player he should, as common courtesy, have known what was expected of him and acted accordingly.
I know as well as anyone how Michael’s help can be misconstrued as the beginning of an argument but it is something that can be lacking.
At every session I go to I make it clear to everyone that I am a learner and if I am fecking it up to tell me.
Even at my local session, if someone new joins in I will tell them "hey, I'm only playing a year now ok?, if I muck it up give me a dig in the ribs will ya?" the reason is, as a novice my place is to play what I can ..if I can and then LEARN. And until I can play properly, without sounding sh*t that is what I will do. I spend most of my time at the sessions watching and listening and I will usually only play when asked and encouraged to do so. And lucky enough, the people I play with continually ask me to play and offer loads of encouragement so I am blessed.
The problem is that a lot of players don’t know their place, and so they need to be put in it.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I like the statement "folk music is for everybody". That is true I would say, however it is not for everybody all at the same time.
IMO everyone should be welcome at as session once they have reached a standard that doesn't destroy the night of others and then play as quietly until it is obvious that you are contributing and not just playing along. The regulars will soon make it clear when they like someones playing.
I wish I had the guts to tell someone that they were ruining things for everyone else. The amount of sessions that really start half an hour from closing time when a belter has left! Sounds bad, but years of putting up with over confident novices who play far to loud, way out of time or over the top of tunes they don't know wears you down.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes bogman, music is for everyone, if only to listen to and appreciate ~ hopefully there's something somewhere in music for most people. I still remember a group of deaf people that got together regularly in Dublin to dance ~ to music. No, mostly they couldn't hear it, but there are all kinds of deafness, they could feel the beat, the rhythm and the phrasing, when the latter was clear as well... They loved music, as they knew it. I would never deny that it is for everyone, hopefully. I meant in a session participation context, which is what this thread was about, that the terminology and blanket statement, in this context, doesn't really fit. It may not be completely fair, but this sort of thing works best with some consideration for the majority, over say one noodler that brings it all down, and as Michael has said ~ doesn't seem interested in listening to anything else but themselves, in being there, whatever the cost...
Yes, a welcome would be my hope, but also to have the skill to not just shut down someone's passions but to direct it in a constructive way ~ like listening and getting some remedial guidance if needed... It isn't just about skin bangers, it is as others have said, all instruments which have the potential to be abusive and intrusive. I don't quite understand people that feel the need to play EVERY tune, whatever instrument they're using, or whether or not they know the tune being played. That's back on another subject we regularly return to ~ noodling...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Some people just don't have rhythm! Some are tone deaf. It's not their fault. They buy a bodhran (or any other kind of hand drum) because they can't play anything else, thinking "this is easy, just hit the skin" and there is no way they can appreciate that their playing is wrong, unfortunately. They just don't hear themselves play "wrong". I even encountered a drummer (i.e. full kit) who needed to listen to clicktracks with headphones in order to do the initial count of a tune and get the beat! Totally insane... he always wanted to be a drummer, yet had not sense rhythm at all and could not count beats.
I was once in a corporate choir, and there was one of the guys who was absolutely tone deaf: he could only sing two notes (literally): high and low, and despite all the efforts we put in trying to make him realize that he never sang on key or in harmony with the others, he just could not get it. Was making me crazy. I quit the choir!
Imagine a blind person, could you blame her/him for not seeing, crashing into objects while walking, or crossing a road on a red light? Of course not.
Some people are musically deaf and there is no easy way to let them realize that they might be better doing anything else but music.
If the guy can't play bodhran in time, one has to tell him! One way or another, it will hurt... Better done early than too late.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Good on you michael. Did he ask if he could join in, in the first place?
If you were sitting at a table in a pub and someone came over uninvited , started making slightly inappropriate interjections into your conversation between close friends, which was personal, deep and intimate, you would at least politely tell him to stop, wouldn't you?
(addressed to most people here)
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"Yes, it's folk music, and yes it's for everyone...to listen to. But right now, for playing it, it's for those of us who play it well. If you'd like some lessons, here's my card..."
500 million peole vote for American Idol, 122 million for US prez
Why? Setting aside for the moment the obvious answer (most people in their heart of hearts are complete and utter idiots) I think people love to see who Simon is going to insult next. We all want to say to the bad singers, "you are a bad singer". We all want to tell the idiot quacking away on his bouzouki "you're in the wrong key." We all want to tell the fiddler "you're speeding the tune up." We all want to tell the bodhran player "you're out of time." Very few of us will do that, myself included, I believe mostly for reasons of kindness (don't want to hurt their feelings or music should be shared by all) or not to embarrass our own selves.
My two cents is the music (on any given night) is more important than the feelings of a seessioneer. Good music is ephemeral. When its happening, you've got to let it happen and any efforts, intentional or otherwise, to ruin it are tragic. I've only been hanging around this board for a few months, but llig sticks out like a sore thumb because he's one honest dude. The world needs more lligs if only to say what we are all sometimes wishing we would say. I just hope llig has a better haircut than Simon.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yeah, I wish my mother hadn't drilled all that "If you can't say something nice..." nonsense into my head when I was kid. I'll just have to make do with being nice while I'm telling eejits to pound sand on down the beach.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
The idea about getting a bad player to stop is fair enough. But the mystification about why he would leave afterwords is worthy of the "Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time."
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"I just hope llig has a better haircut than Simon" - daddae
Don't you know llig doesnt have hair, he grows a ring of horns around his head instead, and breathes fire through his nose when he plays strathspey's...
I prefer a direct honest approach.
The bodhraner took this as something to spoil his fun.
His opinion ~ his choice to leave. He can always return.
From your 1st post we have to assume you were being both honest & polite. Saying that he should stay
Now can someone explain to me how we all know the so - called 'common courtesies'?
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
No mystery - he was obviously embarrassed, when he realised his "contributoin" was surplus to requirements. But he shouldn't have joined in in the first place unless he was sure he knew what he was doing.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
And that answers question in his second post:
Why was it a good decision for him to leave?
It was good for him otherwise he'd have been sat there like a linty.
It was good for the rest of the session because if he'd just sat there everyone else would have been mildly embarassed by his presence, or at least it wouldn't have been such a good atmosphere, and also, it freed up a seat at the session that a proper musician could then take, and be nearer "the action" (- I'm presuming he sat in the middle of the session here.)
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
He sounds like he was just not a very good bodhran player who went to a high-level session and was in over his head. He did ask to clarify if Michael wanted him to play quieter. And he did have the sense to leave when it became clear to him that he'd made a mistake---if he had been a real eejit he would have gotten defensive and picked a fight, or just kept on playing anyway.
Now if he does have sense and still wants to learn, he'll find himself a lower-level session where he can refine his skills until he's good enough to play with the big boys and girls.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Here's the conversation:
Me "Can you stop playing please?"
Him "You want me to play quieter?"
Me "No, just stop."
Him "Do you want me to leave?"
Me "No, no no. Of course not."
It seems you weren't very clear with him what the problem was, which probably came across as being insulting. The guy probably felt embarrassed and didn't want you guys to see that.
Also, you have no idea why he went home. Perhaps he felt guilty being there in the first place and figured now that he was asked to stop playing he may as well go home and spend the time with his family or running some errand he was putting off.
If it was me, my feelings would have been hurt. You really put yourself out there when you make music and so criticism has to be gentle and constructive. "Stop playing" is neither.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Actually we had a similarish situation at our fledgling reborn session last night. In this case a concertina player, an older gentleman, who came and stood outside of the session despite being invited to sit in. He claimed he was only there for a short while, fair enough, give us a tune before you go, eh. Politely declined.
The problem was that for the next hour and a half at every opportunity this guy started the same three or four tunes, mostly polkas or song tunes, changing key every couple of bars, missing bits out etc. At first people were trying to join in and boost the tunes. But the same tunes kept coming, with the same highly personal interpretations. Not content with this the guy would occasionally play over other players, and randomly playalong with tunes he clearly didn't know.
Eventually the guy left & the session recovered. We were all too polite I guess to upset this older guy. The situation wasn't helped by the low number of regulars that turned up last night, so was the session was struggling a bit anyway until quite late on.
In my experience these odd characters always have very load instruments: concertinas, button boxes, highland pipes. I'm amazed that adults can have such poor social skills that they cannot see their behaviour is inapropriate.
I wouldn't have brought this up, but Michael's post struck a cord.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
By inappropriate btw I don't mean going to a session whilst learning (everybody is learning). I mean playing over other people, constantly starting tunes, playing along loudly & randomly with tunes you don't know at all. Starting a tune every few minutes regardless of the others present.
I sometimes wonder if these people are mildly autistic.
Serves us right for being too easy going. The only person we have ever told "no its a closed session", has caused fights in so many sessions down the years that we just weren't prepared to have them sit in.
I always thought that pretty much the only job of a session leader was to make certain that someone, if only him/herself, showed for for a scheduled session. But perhaps each session should have a leader whose job is to politely, gently, constructively weed out the musicians who are doing harm to the session.
There are session killers everywhere who cause good musicians to leave and never return to many a very nice session. Our little town is littered with the graveyards of prior lovely sessions murdered by offending, if clueless, players. A kind but firm session leader could help solve this problem, else we are left hoping (or fearing) to be rescued by llig, or serching for a new session next week.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
The best way to deal with this kind of situation is to learn martial arts. There are certain pressure points e.g. on the neck that make you lose consciousness if you press them. You can do it very surreptitiously - not like hitting someone - and you can then pretend they're drunk and prop them up in a seat somewhere and nobody will know any different. You could even hide their instrument while they're unconscious. It's great: nobody falls out or gets hurt and the musicians can continue to enjoy the session.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Dashing out to the airport, didn't read much of this, but Michael right to tell him to stop. The other bloke should have asked why and maybe got some guidance rather than huffing.
I do it all the time, usually with bodhtran players, but once with a piper.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
daddae, I can't imagine not having someone in charge at a session.
Yes, I'm the default de-facto leader of ours. Why?
Because musicians are a shy, unassuming lot. HA HA! NOT!
No, I don't know why, and why do I keep hearing about these aimless sessions with no one in charge?
It's not often I have to act as the Sergeant-at-Arms, once in a great while, but someone's got to keep the group together via email or phone calls, and coordinate with the pub owner. Someone's got to keep the action moving, or let it take a break, etc.
Don't they?
I mean, if it's myself and one or two other players of competence then, as I said above, there isn't much for a 'leader' to do except smile and play.
But, in those rare cases, someone's got to step up and do what needs to be done, as in Michael's initial post here.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
>But perhaps each session should have a leader whose job is to politely, gently, constructively weed out the musicians who are doing harm to the session.
No thanks, not for me. Anyway who are these self-appointed leaders? If you're one of the lead musicians ie one of the people that starts up a fair number of the sets, it does *not* naturally fall upon you to also be the session policeman/woman, even if you do get the most repect and credibilty, etc, because you can hold the tunes together. You may very well be a shy person, or just a non-confrontational person. - I'm neither of those two but I don't fancy telling anyone to eff off, even though I have done in the past. Also there is no such thing as "should" in playing out at sessions.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It was an honest question. I really don't know if the standard session protocol is a Sergeant-at-Arms session leader, or whether that would even be a good or bad idea (though I'll fall in with KML here and say I'd respectfully decline the position if offered). My first hope is that a rational and genteel musical society polices itself so there is never a need to offend or embarras a fellow sessioneer who is obviously bollixing a session. But obviously that is not universally the case.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
You're right Dow, that is of course the only way forward. I can't believe no-one else thought of that!
Of course, while we're there, we should mention slipping sleeping drugs into the session-killer's Guinness, chloroform on his whistle mouthpiece, learning hypnosis, etc...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I've enjoyed reading this...nice contributions and tales, I do like the clientel here , a great session ~ Llig, even if he is a bit scary, The Muse, Kennedy, GOW, Joe Cascading Style Sheet, Fish, Greg, BC, JNE, Jon, Mark, Ben (I remember!), Rafa, Jim, SS, bogman, québécois, Beg F, Key, daddae, ramblin'pitchfork, Dow's Vulcan neck grip (I haven't yet mastered it, maybe it has something to do with the ears?), SWFL ~ whew, so much well said and stories too, not fogetting the rest of you, 'etc.', but my current state is less than complete itself... I was needing the distraction...
I agree with the need for a session to have definition and direction. My experience is that it works best as an oligarchy rather than a dictatorship, that there isn't just one person taking and dishing out all the flack. Where it has been left to just one person, too often they burn out, give up, and move on, and the session often folds... Or, as has also happened, where the one focus up and moved and the session ended, well, it was a 'gathering', the one I'm holding in my mind right now, music and dance too, music for dance. One person left and it just ended...
I can see problems with the self-appointed, in the singular. The better sessions and gatherings I've known were usually under the nurture of a few people who'd had the original idea, though sometimes the 'idea' runs away from the founders, and sometimes they do the running as well, out the door and somewhere else. Where there has been a core of musicians, usually a few, it seems they are better able to keep the heart of it beating and when they share responsibility and support one another there is less tension over all and things are handled more even tempered ~ than if one person is expected to be the bouncer. Then, understandably, they can loose their patience and things can be very abrupt. Without heart and some kind of focus and direction ~ anyone can get up and vent their grief. I've seen things get unnecessarily nasty when that happens... It hasn't always been the case, but I much prefer to be involved in starting and nurturing something in good company, than on my own... The things I feel best about, the greater successes, were team efforts, even if it were just a few of us, and when we had to be 'firm', it was a collective decision and whoever handed out the pink slip had the rest behind the action... Mostly it was kind, but sometimes the person responsible for the disruptions doesn't allow it to be anything else than "Please leave, you're not welcome here!" I'm pleased to say that was rare...but there were times...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes, please let me clarify. I don't mean I sit there as the Grand Poobah and dispense orders. I mean I'm the one everybody asks questions to. "Does the owner blah blah blah?" "Is it OK if we blah blah blah?" "Will there be a session on blah blah blah?" "Should we play blah blah blah now?" "Hey Ian, Hey Ian, Hey Ian..."
Why is everyone asking me these questions?!? HA!
I don't know how it happened, it just did. Perhaps because I'm the one who loves it the most, I took it upon myself to keep everyone organized, scout the potential locations, talk to the pub owners, keep it all together, etc. I don't sit there and dictate what happens, these are all adults, most of them older than I, and they're all wonderfully intelligent, musical folk. All of them know what we all want from the session and help us collectively "make it so". On those rare occasions when we need to have a bit of policing it really happens as a collective effort, or I'm expected to do something, and I do it.
...and in all honesty, if they didn't have this crazy obsessed fiddler keeping them all together, I don't know if we would have carried on in several different locations over the years now. I'm not being egotistical at all. I'm just the most dedicated fanatic and I keep a loose band together enough for continuity's sake.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I gotta say its a tough call......I personally would not have said anything to this person incase it would upset him/her.I think the sessons are all about learning and everyone learns from their mistakes.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yo! Grand Poobah! ~ I might make an exception with you...
~ but you aren't getting me in one of those outfits and turbans...
Sadly Allissa, some people never do learn, and as you read the stories above, they can cause considerable damage. In the few moments where I or others have been pressed to act, in one instance we suggested they go and start their own session. Another we had continually told the guitarist-singer-songwriter that we didn't do 'sets of songs'. We didn't mind one occassionally, but they insisted in sets. We kindly asked them to leave, and we might have suggested they start their own singers circle somewhere else, but not with us. Crazy, they still persisted and didn't seem to understand. Eventually we got them to leave...
You want a laugh, much of what we've done included food, and there is still some of that, what we call a "Jacob's Join". We have been put in the position to tell someone they weren't welcome because they only came in time for the food, and, they started eating before the meal was set or announced...
There are incorridgible (without direct intervention at least) people out there that desperately need institutionalization... The sad thing is that they don't seem to realize that, they tend to blame everyone else. So the musician who comes to subject us to their inabilities but thinks they can ~ sometimes nothing works and you have to excuse them and show them the way out... Doing that on your own is hell, speaking personally. I hate it, it actually twists me up inside. Having a committee, even if it is only two, lessens the stress and tends to balance it a bit better. To act on committee, on agreement, is much better than acting on instinct alone...
I'm in agreement with the welcome, but being swift as possible to correct something, like a misunderstanding, with forthought, before it escalates to an act made as a reaction out of pent up frustration and anger...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
SWFL ~ take my word for it, and you can ask Dow and other too, share the responsibility, share the stress. If you do, and suddenly your drawn away, you'll have others that can keep the tradition you've helped to found and maintain ~ going... But get rid of the baggy silk trousers, the turbans and those curly toed shoes... And the hookahs, what has that got to do with the music anyway? Hmmm, maybe belly dancing isn't such a bad idea after all Grand Poobah...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think Michael did what he had to do, to preserve his session. Good sessions die in many ways--neglect, apathy, loss of focus--but most are killed by the management of the venue, because the managers feel that the session is not helping to keep their business afloat.
It might not be a "performance" or "entertainment" in the minds of the session players but that's the reality of it, when you play in somebody else's room--other people hear it, and react to it, and the management is in charge of keeping them happy. If the punters are unhappy, you're out.
So you can't allow clueless, random noisemakers free rein to drive away the good players, and degrade the quality of the music to the point where the manager gets complaints, and has to shut it down.
If you host the session at your home, you can make it as all-inclusive as you like. But if the session leader--and one designated person is better than a committee, for dealing with the venue management, imho--has made a deal with the management for a certain kind of session, the leader is obligated to hold up his end of the bargain. The other session regulars should back him up, of course, but it really is up to the session leader to make the call.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
If there are six fine musicians and one disrupter, why do we think we need to consider only his/her feelings. Everyone else made the effort to learn the tunes and be there. They did so with certain expectations for the evening. They deserve the most consideration.
I am becoming more bold as time goes on simply out of respect for everyone who came out. It is only fair.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
The question this raises in my mind is whether Michael is as abrasive, insensitive and judgemental in real life as he is noted for being here?
I don't think "right" and "wrong" has much to do with it - it's a question of relationship skills.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
What does it really matter if someone is "abrasive, insensitive and judgemental" (although I wouldn´t say he is)" is he´s saying things that need to be said?
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
That shoulda been "If" he´s saying... I don´t visit C&F much anymore because of the (correct me if I´m wrong) general attitude of" I play the pennywhistle like I want to play, and my great great grandmother was half Irish and there´s nothing worng with sheet music etc etc". On that board and here there are a handful (not more) of people who really know what they´re talking about, and it seems like those few people are the ones that, for some strange reason, rub people the wrong way.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Just to add to that, cos I´m in a grmupy mood faoi láthair, why is it that invariably only the most most pointless threads get the most responses? Things like the use of the word "Celtic", and "Celtic rock" and anything to do with bodhráns.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Most of the threads on here are actually "pointless". Many have repeated themes, and many of the same arguments are re-runs carried out by the same protagonists. That doesn't mean they aren't fun to contribute to or just to read. The trick is not to bother taking it too seriously. Chucking in your tuppenceworth on here is miles away from actually sitting playing at a session or a gig.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It's funny - I love critism.
Really i do.
Seriously - I'd love to play with people like Llig or Dow who wouldn't walk on eggshells - if I'm sh*te tell me, tell me where to improve, what to listen out for etc...
It's the only way to learn....otherwise it's just sugary niceness that means F-all at the end of the day.
Of course we can still be nice, but don't hold back on me.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"just sugary niceness that means F-all at the end of the day" Exactly, but as soon as someone says something that isn't all-inclusive, and "it´s only folk music" instead of mentioning that it´s takes a fair bit of skill to play this music people get all upset, and the thread goes downhill from there.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Jaysus, reading my last few post again I just have to mention that I'm just after coming home from the pub after band practice. When I'm sober I can spell, and can form coherent sentences.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I have never been asked to leave a session even though I am a piano player who has to use an electronic keyboard if I want to participate in the music making. When some other musicians started a local Irish Jam Session here in Arkansas in 1995 and I asked them which instrument I should bring to the session, I was asked to bring my genuine imitation piano (a Roland EP-90 Digital Piano) so I could help "fill out" the sound at the Irish Session as a my contribution to the general cacophony.
Since then, whenever I travel out of state, I bring my Digital Piano with me in case I find a friendly session which will let me join them to play music.
The only time I was told that I wasn't welcome to sit in at a session was at The Plough And Star in San Francisco, California on a Tuesday night in 1999. I did ask politely if I might join them but the fiddle player who seemed to be in charge acted as if I should never even have asked to join them. He seemed to think I should be seen and not heard even though there was an upright piano in one corner of the bar.
Whenever I do play my genuine imitation piano at a session, I am careful to keep the volume low and try to blend in as much as possible because I am there to make music with the other musicians instead of trying to work against them. I am not at the session just to hear myself play because I can easily record myself and then listen to my playing at home. I am there at the session to listen to the other musicians and to try to contribution to the general cacophony of the session by accompanying the other musicians.
Since the local Irish Sessions were started in 1995, four bands have been started by musicians who participate in these sessions.
I did get to play piano with one of these bands but I have never been asked to perform with the other three bands. I guess they don't think I am good enough to be allowed to perform with them. And, furthermore, some of the people in these other three bands rarely or almost never participate in the Irish Sessions any longer. The people who started these other three bands were some of the best and strongest lead players at the local session.
One evening, when none of these people showed up for the local session, I had to lead the session and I am just the piano player. No, I didn't enjoy having to play lead all evening and wished someone else was there who could help me but there was no one. There was even a girl who wanted to dance and I had to pick something for her to dance to and then lead the small group through the tune.
I guess some of the lead players think they are too good now to mingle with us common folk at the sessions any more.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I've been in Michael's shoes on a number of occasions.
It's no fun, and it's not easy, but it sometimes must be done. If we let one enthusiastic but inexperienced and misguided soul disrupt our session and drive away the participants with several decades of experience, we wouldn't have much of a session left, would we?
Unfortunately it seems most often to be people with a bodhran, though there have been a few players of other instruments too. For several years I've taken the initiative to approach newcomers who have a round case in hand, introduce myself and ask them their name, pose a question or two about what sort of tunes they like to play and where, and then say something along the lines of "We've had mixed results with bodhran players here, some good and some not so good. Please sit down and play a set or two with us, and keep your eyes open as well as your ears. You'll know soon enough if you're welcome or not."
Usually that's all that's required, and the problem sorts itself out. However, there are those that don't get the message even with the above caution, and who are oblivious to all hints and gestures. So they are told, quietly and gently, that they need to put their instrument away. Some storm out, some stay and listen.
We have also tried to share the load amongst the anchor players, but for various reasons I'm often the one that ends up giving the word. The preemptive prep seems to soften the blow when it's required, but as I said it's still not easy to do, and usually leaves at least a bit of a bad taste afterwards.
I do more encouragement of beginners than discouragement by far, but we have to set a limit in order to survive and flourish.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
LOL - Isn't that a hoot? The Plough in SF in 1994 is where I first got my musical teeth kicked in too. My three jigs and two hornpipe contributions were about as warmly welcomed as a used colostomy bag. I was a rank beginner and couldn't keep up. I was told to stop playing, and "go home and learn some proper tunes." It was a sobering experience, but it did light a fire under me to get better. I'm a bit competitive anyway, and their rather brusque review of my musical incompetence had me practicing for hours a day afterwards and listing to every recording of this music I could find.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
The Plough in SF is in my neck of the woods. It's going to be the first session I attend--just so I can get the boot (look out Junji, here I come). I'll take it as a badge of honor
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Björn said:
"here there are a handful (not more) of people who really know what they´re talking about, and it seems like those few people are the ones that, for some strange reason, rub people the wrong way."
Bravo Björn ! I wish that these pages permitted that handful of people to tell what they know about this music, so that we can all learn and benefit. It would be so much more pleasant and worthwhile to be here, rather than the constant jostling to be in the limelight and junk threads along the lines of 'What are your 100 favourite insults'
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
fauxcelt, the Plough & Stars is my local and I've been going to sessions there since 1988. Over the years the "hosts" have changed and even now they rotate between different people every night so you can't judge the Plough sessions on what happened on any given night. I don't know who the fiddler would have been on a Tuesday night in 1999, but I'd say as a general rule when piano players that no one knows just show they’re going to be received cautiously. We have had people show up and play the upright piano that we've had to ask to "please stop," so it's not about you personally. Also, seats around the session table are often at a premium and if someone shows up with an electric keyboard it could take up more space than would be reasonable. If you were already known, or one of the hosts, it would be an entirely different story.
The first Tuesday of the month these days has one of the hosts bringing in an electric keyboard, but she comes early and moves tables to arrange it in a way with her back to the wall and at an angle that ends up only taking up one musician's space. This arrangement would be impossible if someone unknown showed up after the fact. And then since the hosts wouldn't know if you could play or not until after everything was adjusted,; it could get dicey. What if we went through all the trouble only to find out the piano player's a bomb? Then what would we do?
The bottom line is that you're visiting the session; the session hosts aren't there to become your session.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Jusa Nutter Eejit, your experience at the Plough & Stars happened during a time when myself and a friend were the sole hosts of the Sunday session. I noticed in your profile you said, "I picked up the tenor banjo in 1994 or so and have been chasing down the tunes and melodies of my childhood ever since." Now I don't remember the incident, and I apologize if we hurt your feelings, but you have to take into consideration that my friend and I had already been playing for 15 to 20 years at that point and we didn't leave the comfort of our homes on Sunday nights just to go to the pub and baby-sit beginners.
Having said that, I also learned about this the hard way and as you say, "got my musical teeth kicked in." Just like with you, it prompted me to go home and practice -- but that was a good thing.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Faux, if you really like the tunes, why not learn to play them on an instrument that they are more suited too? (With the added bonus that these are invariably more portable)
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes! ~ As has been said, and as with Llig ~ even when you've got a committee of more than one, still highly recommended, it still tends to fall on the shoulder of one to do the honours...
At least you can seek solace with the regulars afterwards knowing they kicked you under the table to act. Yeah, it isn't always about free choice. For me, I'm often cowering in a corner trying to ignore it and someone pokes me and says "Would you please do something about that!" (no question in the inflection.) One for all and all for one, eh?
If no one is willing to act, it slides downhill... But I like how jumper puts it, and when I have had some responsibility, that is my prefered choice ~ the welcome for starters...
I enjoyed the saga of the "Plough & Stars", someone should write a history, with photos...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
One exception where number helped ~ we used to hold a regular dance & Jacob's Join (potluck) in this wonderful large old house with interconnecting rooms that went round in a circle, with double doors, so you could pull back all the doors and have a circular dance floor through four rooms. Yes, it posed some interesting sound differences as the musicians were all in one of the four rooms. Anyway, being generous and 'inclusive', folks were invited. We even sent out an invitation to the other local dance groups, including the RSCDS (Royal Scottish Country Dance Society). This would be part of the root of my general distaste for what the RSCDS stands for, history and in practice.
Back to the story ~ they showed up, in regalia, and with half a dozen musicians. They were welcomed. We were pleased, more musicians, new music, and we liked Scottish music, it and Irish are good companions, in the right hands and setting. Amongst their musicians was a keyboardist, with some version of an 88 full key sized electrical wonder, and an accompanying boom box amplifier. Knowing a little about such things, this added to the worry the costumes had already started.
It seems our more casual and laidback way of things wasn't to their liking and they literally tried to take over. It got so we couldn't get a tune in edgewise. Worse, the keyboardist played for everything, even when it was obvious they hadn't a clue, didn't know the music. What they did do was beat everything to death ~ BOOM CHUCK!
We had to find some way to swing it back to our norm, something more community oriented and not so RSCDS dominant. Collectively we had to, in as diplomatic a way as possible, tell them that wasn't how we did things. Their exit could be described as a HOOMPH!, a pout and marching out in a huff... Another worry was when the piano player told us that if they hadn't married they would have been a concert performer. Ha! None of us saw that potential in their heavy handed-ness, no subtleties there.
So, in this instance ~ we had to ask several someones to stop playing ~ please! They never came back, but the welcome remained and was maintainted for as long as we had this lovely little gathering going... That was the first unpleasant mass invasion on this issue I've ever faced, fortunately not alone ~ though it was me they pushed to the front, yet again...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Björn: "What does it really matter if someone is "abrasive, insensitive and judgemental" (although I wouldn´t say he is)" is he´s saying things that need to be said?"
If I have to answer that I'd be wasting my fingers. Good grief!
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"Seriously - I'd love to play with people like Llig or Dow who wouldn't walk on eggshells - if I'm sh*te tell me, tell me where to improve, what to listen out for etc..."
Sorry to disappoint, BegF, but I've had a think about this, and I don't think I'd ever be as brave as Michael and just tell someone to stop playing, although I have witnessed other people do this in sessions before, and found the whole thing really painful to watch. I'd always have this thing where I'd imagine that person was my own parent or something, and that would always stop me. I'd also be painfully reminded of sessions that I've ruined myself over the years through not understanding the music properly. I was never asked to stop playing back then and perhaps I should have been. Fortunately there were people who cared about seeing me improve enough to take me aside and give me hints for how to improve my playing. So that's the approach I take these days. I've been known to give hints to people during the session or afterwards during a chat, and it's always been taken with good grace, thank god. Things like "your first beat of the bar is on time, but I was listening to you very carefully, and it sounds as though the other beats are slightly behind - you need to pay more attention to getting that backbeat accurate as well, otherwise it'll throw the melody players off", and then I'll say "it's ok, I remember doing exactly the same thing" or something so they know that you're trying to help them so that they can enjoy sessions more in the long term. This stuff is difficult to deal with. Llig's solution is just one way of approaching it. He's not in the wrong. Those of you who say "the music should be for everyone", well, Michael could simply say "yes, it is for everyone, therefore one person does not have the right to spoil it for everyone else, so the problem should be nipped in the bud before it gets out of hand".
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yep - and to reinforce the point "the music should be for everyone" and yes that holds true - BUT - it has to still be music. It sounds like yer man, by his thumping, was making it not be music any longer.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
This is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation with, IMO, one right answer.
I was that person once, and it was not handled appropriately at all. I'm past it, and I very occasionally attend the session -- and now I know what to do, and I do it. What might be helpful for others to think about is that had I been taken aside and talked to politely, perhaps given the name of a session etiquette Website or two, I would have responded very well to that. Having a session anchor scream at me, "Go home and practice!" is what I mean by not appropriate, BTW. It's not only appropriate, it's abuse by any context. If someone had simply said something to me in a reasonable fashion, perhaps mentioned that there was a thriving local slow play at the time (which I didn't know), I would have been very receptive. And the only reason I return at all, ever, is because it got back to me that she had been taken to task by pretty much everyone there or who had ever been there. When I go there, I don't speak to her, and she doesn't speak to me; that's how it is going to stay.
My point is: try a friendly and reasonable conversation, perhaps an agreement among the session leaders that one of them will step out of the session for a bit for the purpose of buying the person a drink , and explaining, first of all, that there is a way the session goes that has been working a long time, and this is how it goes. If this is ignored, then it's appropriate, I think, to ask people to stop playing. But try the reasonable discussion first.
I'm not completely unsympathetic to the situation which began this thread. I know of several instances where it is hopeless and that is truly all that can be done. I know of one guy whom I have personally seen told on several if not many occasions -- and I've said pointedly myself, "This is really dance music, so it's important to keep the rhythm steady -- and he ignores all input of any kind. I left a session I'd attended regularly south of SF because there were not one but three such offenders, and nothing was done, and all fun was gone from the session as far as I was concerned. So there may be a time and a place for asking someone to leave. But try a reasonable discussion first; okay?
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Sometimes, hints are can be too subtle and some players think you're "just joking".
The only real way is to be clear and firm about it. Not necessarily nasty but get the message across.
I'm afraid I'm not very good at being direct either and mostly either put up with it or have a wee grump to myself.
In my younger days... though I wasn't that young then and I'm not really that old now...... I was on the receiving end of "a rollicking" re my "strumming being too loud". This came from a piano accordion player so it must have been true.
Needless to say, I learned my lesson quickly although I wished the floor would swallow me up!
It should be mentioned here(I don't think it hasbeen so far) that Sandy Bells is a very small pub and the session there tends to be quite cosy. It's usually held at one table although it sometimes spreads to two.
An evening session there isn't really the place for novices although learners etc are not unwelcome as long as they respect the regulars. I have played there myself(not much lately) although it has usually been in the more Scottish sessions and it is generally good fun and welcoming enough. However, I would always defer to the "better players" and those who go there far more regularly than me.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I'd rather you were mean and horrible to me, Key - at least I know where I stand. Please go back to being your old sweaty horrible Glaswegian self and throw some lame insults at me so I can then do my normal thing of coming back with something far cleverer and wittier.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Well, if you do persist in saying things that make sense, most uncharacteristic of you I may add, then I'll have no option but to agree with you. What's gotten into you lately? Why are you saying things that are sensible for a change?
You don't know how much it goes against the grain for me to agree with you -- maybe this is YOUR new tactic, actually - to say things that I'm bound to agree with, so I'll eventually freak out.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Phantom Button - no apologies required! It was a big crowd that night and I was making every faux-pas a newbie could possibly make - I deserved to be sent home. Besides, it wasn't you or your mate who shut me down anyway. It was a flute player and his friend and we were sitting around the edges of the session.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I was at a drawing group last night, mixed abilities: some people can draw really well, and other people are beginners, everyone gets along just fine. So what's the difference between this and a session? The difference is that the people who can't draw don't come over and scribble all over your work! This is what accompanists who can't play do at sessions!
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Dow and Cathryn hint at a simple principle that works well in these situations--praise in public, criticize in private. If someone's playing is bad enough that it's disrupting the session, invite them to the bar for a pint and have that chat. Or find time to talk with them at home, between sessions. Offer help, if you can.
The criticism will still sting, but if offered in private and constructively, it's not humiliating--just a reality check. And we all need that once in a while.
Granted, some people will get mad anyway. Some people will refuse to hear the kindness is such an approach, or refuse to believe the critique. At some point, you may have to be more blunt (and public) to protect the session's integrity. But the private, one-on-one approach is worth trying first.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes (and not just agreeing for the sake of it, honest!), but michael probably didn't have the opportunity in his scenario, and instead performed emergency radical surgery.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
What Will and cathrynb said.
Last week, our session leader, who happens to be my music teacher, (privately, and very gently) took me to task for, shall we say, taking a few too many liberties with regards to rhythm. The problem stemmed more from overexcitement and social cluelessness than from lack of technical skill on my part, and this my teacher appeared to recognize. Contrite, I returned to the session the next night with his directive ("follow me") in mind, and asked him for his feedback at the end of the evening. "Much better," he told me. "This isn't an issue anymore," and that was that.
I will be returning to the session tonight, and two important things will be true: 1) I will not feel humiliated or unwelcome, which I would (if I even bothered to return at all!) if my teacher had instead instructed me to just stop playing; and 2) the quality of music will be better than it was two weeks ago, before I was taken aside. Both of these things are important, and a good session host treads that fine line between making everyone feel welcome and maintaining a certain level of quality, music-wise.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yep, Danny, there are times where radical surgery is needed. For instance, I've given the boot to people who were too drunk to play but who insisted on making a racket anyway.
And the scenario can be quite different in big city sessions that may be plagued with a steady stream of potential session wreckers. Perhaps small town sessions are less likely to suffer this, so it's easier to take a more patient approach. Plus, in the small town I live in, it's part of the culture to resolve misdemeanors as far as possible in a way that lets people save face. Public humiliation and the excommunication it often entails is reserved for more serious crimes.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Actually CPT, our small town problems are often worse because you KNOW the offending session killers. It is much easier to insult a stranger than it is your kids basketball coach. This has been a popular thread because dealing with session bollixers is, obviously, a universal problem. At least I know you all share my pain ;)
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yep, this one stuck a chord alright. The thing for newer players to remember though is that the regulars are probably going to be perfectly happy with your company providing you only play the tunes you know and make sure you are not as loud as the more experienced players.
A girl who sometimes goes to our sessions and is progressing on the fiddle brings a list of the couple dozen tunes she knows and we try to play as many of them as we can through the evening. She plays quietly and is more than welcome anytime. By working out session manners earlier on she has the regulars wanting to involve her rather than count the minutes till she goes - as apposed to the over confident poor percussion players that have caused us some stress.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
daddae, that's my point--in a small town, you're more inclined to help the offending party save face. In a big city, you can just tell them to stop playing. If they don't like it, they simply vanish back into the faceless masses beyond the pub.
But the small-town approach is more likely to produce a win-win for the player in question and the session.
That said, big city sessions I've been too seem to suffer a steady stream of thrashers, bashers, and prima donnas. That explains at least in part why they might take more abrupt measures--you can't spend all your time fending off the not-ready-for-prime-time players. There'd be no time left to play tunes.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Regarding the suggestion of politely taking the offender aside: sometimes I'm too busy having fun playing tunes to stop and council an offender. Sometimes you just have to tell them straight out they're getting in the way regardless of how embarrassing it might be. There's the direct approach, (like what Michael did,) and there's a wide variety of more subtle and less reliable approaches. But sometimes there isn't enough time to waste on tact and you get frustrated and just have to blurt it out – get the job done so to speak so you can get back to doing what you came to do – play tunes.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I agree, Jack. It all depends on the situation. Someone who's truly derailing the session needs to be told straight off.
Even then, though, it may be possible for someone in the circle to pull them aside, get it over with in two minutes, and get back to the tunes.
The few times I've seen someone bark at an offender right out in public, though, the offender storms off in a huff or makes a scene, and it sours everyone's mood for the rest of the evening. That's why I'll usually pull the person aside and try to take care of things as constructively and discreetly as possible. If that fails, then all bets are off.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
True enough, but there's no guarantee that the polite approach will work either. I've seen times where great effort was made to be discreet and tactful only to result in a response that causes uproar.
Case in point: we had a heavy-handed piano player that everyone was complaining about and looking to me to do something. This person would come in a physically start shoving people out of the way of the piano even while they were playing. Then the offender would plant them self down and start pounding out chords that would cancel out any other back up that was going on and overwhelm the session. I approached the person with care and explained the problem, but I was met with indifference regardless of my thoughtful approach. So I decided to sit in the chair directly in front of the piano myself. Being 6'4" and weighing over 200 pounds, I was too big for this person to shove out of the way. When they demanded I move I quietly said I would make room as soon as the session thinned out a bit. (It was very crowded at the time.) The piano player stormed off and began a campaign of lies about how I told them they couldn't play in our session. I spent years after that explaining to people how it wasn't true. Some people bought the fabricated story without bothering to investigate, and it created a rift in the community for quite some time.
Eventually that particular piano player alienated them self from every session in town and I was absolved... but what a pain. Remember now -- I took the time to be polite and tactful in this case.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
RichardB: The difference is that the people who can't draw don't come over and scribble all over your work!
'c': I loved that analogy Richard...
It is interesting that those who are more vocal about being direct and not wasting time are both involved in what are 'big city' sessions ~ Llig & Button... I think it is true that their patience has probably been tried more frequently than small sessions or those in the 'rural outback'... We've mostly been that latter, but there have been times we've been pushed to the edge and had to react in an uncomfortable but necessary way, such as asking one or more to leave, "please"... My nature is to try the way that Will mentioned ~ praise in public, criticize (constructively) in private, at least for starters...
cathrynb, I wouldn't have shouted at you...
Sometimes people take it on themselves to do the delivery ~ and not necessarily supported by the regulars or the session as a whole. I've witnessed that too. I've actually also chased down some folks when I saw some a*shole put them down who had no business doing so, someone who wasn't elected or representative of the 'establishment'... In at least one incident, after such repeated rudeness, the person doing the delivering was asked to leave, but not before having been warned several times about putting newcomers and 'beginners' off... Worse, and it seems the norm, this person wasn't a particularly good musician themself, and was no loss... Things actually grew more pleasant in their absence...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Agreed, telling the offender privately is the best option. But if it's a crowded situation, it might not be easy to take the person aside.
The only time I ever loudly told somebody to leave the circle involved a drunk. He was too drunk to sit up, kept slowly leaning to one side or the other, wanting to borrow an instrument--which he had done a couple of times before, when he wasn't so completely schnockered. But he was obviously disturbing the players sitting next to him, and I lost my temper. And you're right, it did sort of spoil the mood.
The real shame it is that, at some point, I think he really could play, and knew the music well--but by the time we encountered him, his addictions had taken over.
Truth is, I still feel bad about it, and I would love to meet that guy again, find out that he has straightened himself out, and play some tunes with him. But I don't know it that will ever happen.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
All we can hope for is that we do the best we can, with what we have, at the time.
And all we can ask of others is that they reciprocate. Without reciprocity, we might as well blow a gasket and tell the feckers off--they've earned it at that point.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Mickray, he broke you, not the other way around. I have no problem with seeing a drunk removed, or in getting others to help or lend backing for that. That is a case where it needs to be done sooner than later. If that drunk had grabbed or fallen on an instrument you would have really had a spoiled session. It is a case of cruety being one of the only options, with any addict. Honesty rules, and that isn't really cruel, the cruelty is what that person is doing to themselves. Some folks melt into drunkeness and you can leave them be, others become obnoxious and demanding. There, if in a pub and with good relations I might actually ask the publican for some help. I've seen where some serious conflict can arise from that sort of drunk. The responsibility for cure is with the addict, the drunk, whether or not they can or could ever play music...
Don't get me wrong, I do sympathize, and I've given some small amount of time to groups providing shelter, care and counseling for addiction. And, curiously, I've never met a drunk I didn't like, on that side of it, but you can't take that much time or effort at a session, IMHO... Worse, and it has happened, when it is a friend you're talking about. I've been there...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
What ceolachan said about the drunk. I also recall a thread on here in this same vein where it sounded like the session-smasher might have been psychotic. I was an office manager for a homeless placement office in San Francisco for a while, and the behavior as described sounded far too familiar. In that case, it's the same thing: get them out of there. The fact that they can't help it and thus deserve a certain amount of sympathy doesn't mean they're not capable of real harm.
And all true, Will CPT. If they can respond to respectful intervention, well, it's worth a try to find that out. If not, they deserve the rejection, IMO.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
'c' -- yes, a helpful waitress quickly stepped up, made sympathetic noises to the belligerent drunk, and gently guided him to the door. It was masterfully done. If I ever need ejecting, I would want her to do it, because the woman is a true artist. ;>}
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Thanks, Michael. I must admit, I was beginning to feel uncomfortable myself, as I've definitely had more than I should on more than one occasion. Yet, at my regular session, I hardly ever drink.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Ah, the search for absolution, I'm not an alcoholic, I just drink socially... Was I talking about you Michael or Ben? I didn't have you in mind... Is there something you're not telling us ~ or not admitting to yourself?
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
We can just gently put your instruments away and adjust you so you won't fall out of your seat or hurt yourself or drown in your own vomit, and then let you quietly sleep it off... We might even arrange for someone to drive you home and put you to bed...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Michael--I'm not being mean, just honest. The fellow in my story was a well-known addict to alcohol and other substances. He was kicked out of every other session in town before finally ending up at our beginner session. We tried to give him a chance, but I never saw him sober. The week previous to the story above, he tried to pick a fight with a staff member who refused to give him a second free pint (one pint per player, that was the deal). He didn't even own an instrument any more. I can only assume he had sold or pawned it to feed his addictions.
And like I said, I would purely love to see him get his act together again, and come to the session with his own instrument--and proper respect for the staff and other players. I hope he does that someday, I really do.
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
And just for record, I have had one too many, myself, on occasion. But that's a different thing than showing up for a session already drunk, and then throwing a fit because the pub won't give you all the free alcohol you want.
Whew. Sorry. I got a little carried away, there. I guess I think the music shouldn't take a back seat to the drinking. This is a hard time of year, for people like me. ;>}
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I agree, mickray, the music shouldn't take a back seat to drink. And it's rare that I have too much, but does happen occasionally.
For the record, ceol, when it does happen, I'm a 'soppy' drunk - I just get sentimental. Which is embarassing, but at least it's easy to deal with. I always think you can tell a lot about someone from how they are when they're drunk ...
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"your first beat of the bar is on time, but I was listening to you very carefully, and it sounds as though the other beats are slightly behind - you need to pay more attention to getting that backbeat accurate as well, otherwise it'll throw the melody players off"
Posted by Dow way up there somwehere. Yeah this makes sense, in fact Dow has said pretty much exactly that to me before.... and I was much appreciative of it. Believe it or not!
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think its totally fine to do what you did. If it was the case that he was that bad as you say then it probably was better for him to stop playing than dig a deeper hole for himself. You were probably doing him a favour.
About packing and leaving i wouldn't lose any sleep over it. You probably just hurt his ego a bit and so he couldn't handle just sitting and listening and hence left. He'll get over it. He should have ask if he was playing too loud or if his rythm was distracting aswell, its only manners for an accompanying instrument. People should ask if they can join aswell.
I know how annoying it can be to have someone (like a bodhran player for example) come into a session and have a bad influence on it. I play a regular session in dublin once a week and it is really the only time I would get to play between college and such so if someone like that were to unbalance the session than it would be extremely irritating because I would want to enjoy that session seeing as it would be the only one im able to do.
I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Right Oh ....
It was a bodhran, but that was incidental. This is important because I don't want this thread to be specifically anti bodhran.
It went ...
Me "Can you stop playing please?"
Him "You want me to play quieter?"
Me "No, just stop."
Him "Do you want me to leave?"
Me "No, no no. Of course not."
He packs up and leaves.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Good on ya. Was he that bad?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Aiki
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
What's the context? Why did you ask him to stop?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by kennedy
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Given the brief information it
seems like a good decision on his part.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Out of tune, eh?
--DtM
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes, he was that bad
I asked him to stop because he was too loud and not playing anywhere near in time.
But the question is, Why was it a good decision for him to leave?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
He most likely came to play at your session.
When Plan A changes you need a Plan B even if you did not sow up with one. He knows he can come back anytime as long as he does not play.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
You embarrassed him and he didn't want to stay there anymore, so he left.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by kennedy
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Why am I not surprised ~ on either count...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I hope you started out with some non-verbal cues so at least he had a chance to notice that you weren't enjoying his playing...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by kennedy
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
We need something like a Betty Ford clinic, or the Sanctuary, for the rehabilitation of arhythmic bodhranistas...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
...
if he did not *show* up with one (Plan B) . . . he had to make one up.
The Exit looked more appealing than sitting out.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I tried starting a clinic once, having a little open-door clinic experience with alcoholics and drug addicts, but the problem was that none of the bodhranites could see, hear or perceive that they might have a problem...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It's the exit v the sitting that annoyed me. There was no better music in edinburgh that night. Was he interested in music?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
At any point did you tell him he why? ~ such as "You're too loud!"
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
eh?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by john knoss
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
sorry , my last post was in reply to 'c'
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by john knoss
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Just a minute John, I'll run and get my ear syringe...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Stop playing!
I am still wondering what the non-verbal cues would be ;)
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Sorry ceolachan, yes, I did say, "you are not playing in time"
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Michael, you embarrassed him. He slinked out of the pub with his tail between his legs. Very similar to being at a fine restaurant when you've lost your appetite. There's no point in being there.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by kennedy
Stop playing!
Michael you really have no reason to be annoyed.
Taken aback,yes.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I remember a young considerate bodhran player that came to a session we had going and he always muted his bodhran,playing very quietly with his ear up against it. He was actually really good. He didn't play for everything and seemed to get as much pleasure out of just sitting in and listening and sharing in the banter. We had to urge him to bring it out. That kind of consideration needs acknowledgement, and his skill with the bodhran too... This was a case the reverse of yours Michael...if too rare...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Not true Kennedy. The point was, he was never there to listen in the first place. He didn't listen when he was "playing", so why listen whaen he wasn't?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It was your man's choice to stay and gain from the experience, or to take it personal and go out in a huff...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I don't know what the etiquette is at your session, but I'd rather be helped than asked not to play at all. If I'm asked nicely, I'm ok. Again, it depends upon what you expect of the people playing at the session. But, if someone offered me help, I'd prefer that.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by grumblingoldwoman
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I did offfer help. He was playing without listening
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Okay, I'll put it another way---you confronted him with the fact that he was embarrassing himself. Either way, he wouldn't want to stay after that. I'm surprised that you were surprised by him leaving. It doesn't have to do with music, it's an interpersonal issue.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by kennedy
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
You could have been more polite about it.
And no, being polite doesn't simply mean not being rude. OK, you didn't say "Hey, can you shut up? You sound crap!", but you could have been nicer about it. You could have dropped hints, like "That's a very loud bodhrán you've got, isn't it?", or "I dunno what happened there, I think we got a bit out of time with each other..."
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Hey - he stopped - then decided to leave - what's your problem? Wouldn't you have given him the same consideration if the roles were reversed?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by jamascc
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think that if anyone is going to loudly pound goat, then they should be prepared for some feedback and not just up and leave when they get any.
I once observed a lady fiddle player, quite good, at our session, and I saw that her bridge was installed backwards. The low part was toward the G string.
I tried to find a diplomatic way to inquire on this, such as, it's backwards did you put it like that for a sound reason, etc.
She acted like I was insulting her playing. Oblivious.
My worst episode was when my guitar player friend's dear wife announced, at one of our rehearsals at his house that she was going to sing the next w/e at an exhibition.
My response was "You're going to sing?" Even though I swear t this day I meant nothing by it, I have yet to live this down.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by dogmageek
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It's lucky you didn't have to tell her that she had her G string on backwards.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by GaryAMartin
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I was playing bodhran at an open session at a festival about 4 or 5 years ago. During a pause in the music, which I thought sounded great, I turned to a guitar player beside me and complimented his playng. He didn't say a single word. He just glared at me like I was satan himself. "What an a--hole!" I thought. I took my drum and left.
I'm not a fan of bodhran haters but I understand in some certain situations. That wasn't one of them.
The thing is, no one has ever offered advice or tips at any of the sessions I've been to. Just insults. I thought I was pretty good. Not pro but certainly good enough for a local session.
My guitar playing? Well, that's another issue.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
In my classroom, I make my expectations clearly known to all my students. Only then am I comfortable correcting bad behavior or performance. When this situation arises in a group of adults, we have an obligation to make sure we have made clear the expectations for the group. Was that done in this instance?
For an adult to buy a bodhran (even with a Guinness logo on the side) and show up at a session, that takes some effort. I would not want to intentionally embarrass another adult. I guess I'd say it's a tough call.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
That's RIDICULOUS. Folk music's for everyone.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by squeezyjoe
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I've tried on occasion the subtle appraoch to a couple of folks who are not participating... just making 'glorious noise'. I wonder if the lack of ability to perceive that they are not adding to the music influences, come from, is part of the inability to take relatively subtle hints about the effect of their play on everyone else.
I think that it is much better to be direct and polite, than try to be so nice in order that the person's feelings are not hurt, that they don't get the message. If, even then, the person chooses to ignore, then stronger language is required... the ultimate is of course to leave the person to there own devices - see how they like trying to run the session on their own... the publican will then tear a piece out of them...
The softly softly approach strikes me as a very English way of doing things - I believe in being polite... but often these sorts of folks won't get the message unless it's super clear.
This sort of stuff comes up all the time for me in my work life. If people can't handle a bit of honest, polite, feedback then they need to adjust.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Did you ask him to stop play in front of everyone in the room?
He might have been much less embarrassed if you had taken him aside and asked him in private, that would have allowed him to save face; pretend that he just wanted to get a beer, or something and never get back to playing.
arlo
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Fellenbaum
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
No Guinness logo on MY drum. I might buy one like that to hang on the wall, but... LOL
I think I'd been playing for about 5 years when I ran into "Mr. Evil Eyes".
I'd much rather have someone say "Excuse me but this next tune is an air... etc, etc... so you may not want to play for this one." Rather than sit silently and let me make an ass out of myself. And I'd be stoked if someone said, "OK, here's a couple slip jigs, rock out... just don't drown us out!"
And If I was really that bad, offer me card of a bodhran instructor you know. I'd probably buy you a pint for the helpful advice.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It sounds like you really hurt the fellow's pride. It may be that he's new to session culture, and doesn't understand the high value that we place on learning by listening.
That said Llig, if your playing is half as formidable as your posting, I'd love to just sit and listen!
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by jasonb
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Alas, I only have a Guinness logo...on my Guinness.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by jasonb
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Folks - this situation clearly isn't meant just for bodhrans - it could have happened to any player of any instrument who is being disruptive or clueless as to the music. I was asked to "stop playing" at the first session I ever attended back in 94. It crushed me. But it also taught me a lesson and motivated me. The next time I returned, I was better prepared. Maybe our hapless bodhran player in Llig's story will respond likewise. Or, maybe he won't ever return. Either way the community benefits.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
No. I think if somebody doesn't return, the community loses.
I took another bodhran players advice. Learn the melodies first. Then only play my drum on tunes that I know rather than "oh, I know that RHYTHM" and look like a fool.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
speaking of looking like a fool and community loses.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,337232,00.html
Maybe it's best if someone gets up and leaves it all er um behind? Mr. Whipple??
Sorry as usually i"m off topic again. ;0(
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
OMFG! That's just... just... WEIRD.
Not quite the response I was expecting! LOL But hey, it was an interesting read.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I can understand both parts of this situation, and I wish I had a better answer for either party.
I've recently had to try to play while some really bad perussion was going on (one night it was maracas, for the love of pete) and it really does make playing impossible. You might as well go for a walk, there's no music happening when someone's beating off time. So I can understand the need to address the situation. However, I know why the fellow left - he came to play, he thought he was in the pocket, things were on fire, a grand night at the session, and here comes someone to pour cold water on him. Yeah, he left, and yeah, he probably still feels bad about it.
Is there an answer? Probably. Could you buy him a drink and get into some conversation? That would at least get him away from the music for a little while, allowing some tunes to happen unaided.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Jon Kiparsky
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Sounds like a title to a song. Sort ot antidote to "I woke up this morning..."
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Interesting topic, tho. I wish I'd said something like that to the person who CONSTANTLY noodled on the guitar between tunes at the last session I went to - so you're always on a knife-edge about whether he's about to start a tune or not. That same person was really struggling for the key in one piece, and I eventually said "Bb. It's in Bb" but he just didn't pay any attention. Wish I had the bravery to say "shut the f*** up!" but unfortunately my wimpy British genes kick in...because that's not the sort of thing we say, don't you know!
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Know where you're coming from, Mark. Some people may remember that I had a similar problem some while ago. As for me, *I* was the one that left. It just wasn't worth staying, even though the majority there were decent musicians, and good sorts.
I think non-verbal hints are next to useless in these situations - the only recourse is some sort of direct approach.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
On another topic, where has this idea come from that 'folk music is for everyone'?
That strikes me as just a soppy, Americanised, New Agey sort of idea. Never was like that in the past. Music used to be for musicians.
One time, 30 years ago in Sligo, we were having a nice session. Nice and relaxed, though the speeds tended to be on the fast side, as they used to be in Sligo (I think they've slowed down a bit nowadays). And then this English couple came in - he with a piano accordion and she with, as I recall, a bloody tambourine of all things. Anyway, they asked if they could join and were, of course, welcomed. And then he started to play some tunes - *way*, way too fast.
Because they were English (English? Welsh? what's the difference?) I was asked to have a word with them. I talked to the bloke quietly and all I said was "Lovely playing, but do you think you could slow it down a bit?" The two of them left the pub, but not before the chap delivered a shouted tirade of abuse to everyone there.
Sometimes you just can't win. But at least on that occasion the music won, and I hope it did for Michael's session as well.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Perhaps llig is available for hire.
My local session would benefit from someone who could employ some straight talk. I suppose I'll have to give it a try myself because someone's got to speak up...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by leoj
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
At least they didn't start playing hymns, eh... That bit earlier you mentioned ~
"That's RIDICULOUS. Folk music's for everyone."
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by squeezyjoe
If that were the case there wouldn't be any. The majority of 'everybody' can't play a thing, let alone keep a steady beat with their feet or know the difference between a jig and reel, stuck permanently in pop culture 4/4, if they've an ounce of any musical sense about them. Of course, I don't mean any of youse...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Greg the Piano Tuner: I (we) make my expectations clearly known to all ~ Only then am I comfortable correcting bad behavior or performance. When this situation arises in a group of adults, we have an obligation to make sure we have made clear the expectations for the group.
For an adult to buy a bodhran (even with a Guinness logo on the side) and show up at a session, that takes some effort. I would not want to intentionally embarrass another adult. I guess I'd say it's a tough call.
# Posted on March 13th 2008
Brown Creeper: I think that it is much better to be direct and polite ~
# Posted on March 13th 2008
'c': Nice one fishmonger, I'd also 'much rather' ~ friendly advice and direction! ~ whatever the instrument or situation...
Jon Kiparsky: "~and here comes someone to pour cold water on him."
# Posted on March 13th 2008
'c': That's considerate, a wake up call, considering that in most cases where people are drive to respond to something like this it is after that someone has pi*sed all over the session, spoiling it for everyone else... Sometimes such imbalances do need dealing with, but I accept some people are gifted at such things, not all, and not necessarily the first to react. I suspect as has been suggested by others already, that it is better to deal with it sooner than later, before there's anger built up behind it...to deal with it while we're still relatively calm, maybe even, as Greg has said, from the start, from the first welcome and introduction, a responsibility shared by all the regulars instead of heaped up on the shoulders of one person...
Me, I'm a whoos, the only person I've ever told directly to F'k off was a friend, a bodhran player, but I haven't yet refused an initial friendly welcome to anyone just because they carry a round vanity case...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
In my opinion, no matter how you handle the situation.
1- Either you are direct, honest and sincere that your colleague takes offence.
2- Or you so polite and subtle that your colleague never gets the message and goes on storming the session.
For some months our local session was attacked by a loud fiddler unable to keep up the rythm. He stopped suddenly, sometimes played faster and faster. He was very intrusive, he never let a player finish the set. He was terribly out of tune. The guitar player (20 years playing experience) was helpless trying to find out which key he was playing. Anxious to show the tune just learned that same evening, so on and so forth.
Along these months we sent him a variety of hints and polite words such as "This tune is pretty difficult isn't it? Why don't we try to play it all together and a bit slower?" or "I love that tune, when you'll master it it'll be great". WE spoken to him several times about sudden interruptions, intrusions in other's set, hard work concerning tuning, etc.
USELESS. He's so happy about his playing. Not a pinch of auto-criticism. He finally ruined the session. Nobody attended. Some weeks ago he addressed a message to the locals to boost the session. Nobody answer as a sign of tireness and prudence. Then he sent an agressive message looking under his nose at us saying that he's too good for us. Then I answered to him with direct and sharp words. He never came back. I feel pity for this guy cause he is absolutely ignorant about the image he mirrors of himself. This guy is notoriously known in Southern Spain session even further. Everybody fears playing with him and he even has some derogative nicknames here and there (never in our session, to be fair.)
I'm sorry about the long and personal post, but I can't avoid having this mixed feeling about the whole thing. We've spontaneously started the session again without him, but we've maybe lost a friend.
Rgds
Rafa
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by sylvester
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think any musician thats learning their Instrument,, Should
not play loud - It should'nt matter if its a Bodhran, Tin whistle,
Fiddle, or Concert Flute,, I dont beleave they should just sit
their and learn nothing- But Quitly at first till they know 1st-
The Instrument and 2nd till they know the tune Better..
Although there are somp people who dont care about the
music or anyone else in the session,,They just want to impress Others around them.. PUT MUSIC FIRST,,
jim,,,
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think Michael is right.
As a novice player he should, as common courtesy, have known what was expected of him and acted accordingly.
I know as well as anyone how Michael’s help can be misconstrued as the beginning of an argument but it is something that can be lacking.
At every session I go to I make it clear to everyone that I am a learner and if I am fecking it up to tell me.
Even at my local session, if someone new joins in I will tell them "hey, I'm only playing a year now ok?, if I muck it up give me a dig in the ribs will ya?" the reason is, as a novice my place is to play what I can ..if I can and then LEARN. And until I can play properly, without sounding sh*t that is what I will do. I spend most of my time at the sessions watching and listening and I will usually only play when asked and encouraged to do so. And lucky enough, the people I play with continually ask me to play and offer loads of encouragement so I am blessed.
The problem is that a lot of players don’t know their place, and so they need to be put in it.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by session savage
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I like the statement "folk music is for everybody". That is true I would say, however it is not for everybody all at the same time.
IMO everyone should be welcome at as session once they have reached a standard that doesn't destroy the night of others and then play as quietly until it is obvious that you are contributing and not just playing along. The regulars will soon make it clear when they like someones playing.
I wish I had the guts to tell someone that they were ruining things for everyone else. The amount of sessions that really start half an hour from closing time when a belter has left! Sounds bad, but years of putting up with over confident novices who play far to loud, way out of time or over the top of tunes they don't know wears you down.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by bogman
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes bogman, music is for everyone, if only to listen to and appreciate ~ hopefully there's something somewhere in music for most people. I still remember a group of deaf people that got together regularly in Dublin to dance ~ to music. No, mostly they couldn't hear it, but there are all kinds of deafness, they could feel the beat, the rhythm and the phrasing, when the latter was clear as well... They loved music, as they knew it. I would never deny that it is for everyone, hopefully. I meant in a session participation context, which is what this thread was about, that the terminology and blanket statement, in this context, doesn't really fit. It may not be completely fair, but this sort of thing works best with some consideration for the majority, over say one noodler that brings it all down, and as Michael has said ~ doesn't seem interested in listening to anything else but themselves, in being there, whatever the cost...
Yes, a welcome would be my hope, but also to have the skill to not just shut down someone's passions but to direct it in a constructive way ~ like listening and getting some remedial guidance if needed... It isn't just about skin bangers, it is as others have said, all instruments which have the potential to be abusive and intrusive. I don't quite understand people that feel the need to play EVERY tune, whatever instrument they're using, or whether or not they know the tune being played. That's back on another subject we regularly return to ~ noodling...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
I enjoyed your tale of woe Rafa, with empathy...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Some people just don't have rhythm! Some are tone deaf. It's not their fault. They buy a bodhran (or any other kind of hand drum) because they can't play anything else, thinking "this is easy, just hit the skin" and there is no way they can appreciate that their playing is wrong, unfortunately. They just don't hear themselves play "wrong". I even encountered a drummer (i.e. full kit) who needed to listen to clicktracks with headphones in order to do the initial count of a tune and get the beat! Totally insane... he always wanted to be a drummer, yet had not sense rhythm at all and could not count beats.
I was once in a corporate choir, and there was one of the guys who was absolutely tone deaf: he could only sing two notes (literally): high and low, and despite all the efforts we put in trying to make him realize that he never sang on key or in harmony with the others, he just could not get it. Was making me crazy. I quit the choir!
Imagine a blind person, could you blame her/him for not seeing, crashing into objects while walking, or crossing a road on a red light? Of course not.
Some people are musically deaf and there is no easy way to let them realize that they might be better doing anything else but music.
If the guy can't play bodhran in time, one has to tell him! One way or another, it will hurt... Better done early than too late.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by québécois
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Agreed.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by BegF
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
…and if he had stayed would it really have made all that much difference ?…presumably he has listened to good music before.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by BegF
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Michael... why didnt you just do something subtle... like glass him and use the broken glass to shred his bodhran?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by session savage
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Good on you michael. Did he ask if he could join in, in the first place?
If you were sitting at a table in a pub and someone came over uninvited , started making slightly inappropriate interjections into your conversation between close friends, which was personal, deep and intimate, you would at least politely tell him to stop, wouldn't you?
(addressed to most people here)
That's how I analogise it anyway.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
>Me "Can you stop playing please?"
Actually, you complimented him, because, by the sound of it, he wasn't "playing" at all.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"Yes, it's folk music, and yes it's for everyone...to listen to. But right now, for playing it, it's for those of us who play it well. If you'd like some lessons, here's my card..."
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
500 million peole vote for American Idol, 122 million for US prez
Why? Setting aside for the moment the obvious answer (most people in their heart of hearts are complete and utter idiots) I think people love to see who Simon is going to insult next. We all want to say to the bad singers, "you are a bad singer". We all want to tell the idiot quacking away on his bouzouki "you're in the wrong key." We all want to tell the fiddler "you're speeding the tune up." We all want to tell the bodhran player "you're out of time." Very few of us will do that, myself included, I believe mostly for reasons of kindness (don't want to hurt their feelings or music should be shared by all) or not to embarrass our own selves.
My two cents is the music (on any given night) is more important than the feelings of a seessioneer. Good music is ephemeral. When its happening, you've got to let it happen and any efforts, intentional or otherwise, to ruin it are tragic. I've only been hanging around this board for a few months, but llig sticks out like a sore thumb because he's one honest dude. The world needs more lligs if only to say what we are all sometimes wishing we would say. I just hope llig has a better haircut than Simon.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by daddae
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yeah, I wish my mother hadn't drilled all that "If you can't say something nice..." nonsense into my head when I was kid. I'll just have to make do with being nice while I'm telling eejits to pound sand on down the beach.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
The idea about getting a bad player to stop is fair enough. But the mystification about why he would leave afterwords is worthy of the "Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-time."
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by grego
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Ha ha – it is bit alright.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by BegF
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"I just hope llig has a better haircut than Simon" - daddae
Don't you know llig doesnt have hair, he grows a ring of horns around his head instead, and breathes fire through his nose when he plays strathspey's...
only messing Michael
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by session savage
Stop playing
I prefer a direct honest approach.
The bodhraner took this as something to spoil his fun.
His opinion ~ his choice to leave. He can always return.
From your 1st post we have to assume you were being both honest & polite. Saying that he should stay
Now can someone explain to me how we all know the so - called 'common courtesies'?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
No mystery - he was obviously embarrassed, when he realised his "contributoin" was surplus to requirements. But he shouldn't have joined in in the first place unless he was sure he knew what he was doing.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
And that answers question in his second post:
Why was it a good decision for him to leave?
It was good for him otherwise he'd have been sat there like a linty.
It was good for the rest of the session because if he'd just sat there everyone else would have been mildly embarassed by his presence, or at least it wouldn't have been such a good atmosphere, and also, it freed up a seat at the session that a proper musician could then take, and be nearer "the action" (- I'm presuming he sat in the middle of the session here.)
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
He sounds like he was just not a very good bodhran player who went to a high-level session and was in over his head. He did ask to clarify if Michael wanted him to play quieter. And he did have the sense to leave when it became clear to him that he'd made a mistake---if he had been a real eejit he would have gotten defensive and picked a fight, or just kept on playing anyway.
Now if he does have sense and still wants to learn, he'll find himself a lower-level session where he can refine his skills until he's good enough to play with the big boys and girls.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by kennedy
Playing last night
He can also listen at Sandy Bells.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Exactly. But before we forget, what this incident, and the contributions to this thread, show, is, that there IS skill to bodhran playing
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Ha ha Danny - I like where you're going
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by BegF
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Here's the conversation:
Me "Can you stop playing please?"
Him "You want me to play quieter?"
Me "No, just stop."
Him "Do you want me to leave?"
Me "No, no no. Of course not."
It seems you weren't very clear with him what the problem was, which probably came across as being insulting. The guy probably felt embarrassed and didn't want you guys to see that.
Also, you have no idea why he went home. Perhaps he felt guilty being there in the first place and figured now that he was asked to stop playing he may as well go home and spend the time with his family or running some errand he was putting off.
If it was me, my feelings would have been hurt. You really put yourself out there when you make music and so criticism has to be gentle and constructive. "Stop playing" is neither.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Actually we had a similarish situation at our fledgling reborn session last night. In this case a concertina player, an older gentleman, who came and stood outside of the session despite being invited to sit in. He claimed he was only there for a short while, fair enough, give us a tune before you go, eh. Politely declined.
The problem was that for the next hour and a half at every opportunity this guy started the same three or four tunes, mostly polkas or song tunes, changing key every couple of bars, missing bits out etc. At first people were trying to join in and boost the tunes. But the same tunes kept coming, with the same highly personal interpretations. Not content with this the guy would occasionally play over other players, and randomly playalong with tunes he clearly didn't know.
Eventually the guy left & the session recovered. We were all too polite I guess to upset this older guy. The situation wasn't helped by the low number of regulars that turned up last night, so was the session was struggling a bit anyway until quite late on.
In my experience these odd characters always have very load instruments: concertinas, button boxes, highland pipes. I'm amazed that adults can have such poor social skills that they cannot see their behaviour is inapropriate.
I wouldn't have brought this up, but Michael's post struck a cord.
- Chris
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ramblingpitchfork
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
By inappropriate btw I don't mean going to a session whilst learning (everybody is learning). I mean playing over other people, constantly starting tunes, playing along loudly & randomly with tunes you don't know at all. Starting a tune every few minutes regardless of the others present.
I sometimes wonder if these people are mildly autistic.
Serves us right for being too easy going. The only person we have ever told "no its a closed session", has caused fights in so many sessions down the years that we just weren't prepared to have them sit in.
- Chris
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ramblingpitchfork
Is this why there should be "session leaders"?
I always thought that pretty much the only job of a session leader was to make certain that someone, if only him/herself, showed for for a scheduled session. But perhaps each session should have a leader whose job is to politely, gently, constructively weed out the musicians who are doing harm to the session.
There are session killers everywhere who cause good musicians to leave and never return to many a very nice session. Our little town is littered with the graveyards of prior lovely sessions murdered by offending, if clueless, players. A kind but firm session leader could help solve this problem, else we are left hoping (or fearing) to be rescued by llig, or serching for a new session next week.
I dunno. I've never been a session leader. you?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by daddae
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
The best way to deal with this kind of situation is to learn martial arts. There are certain pressure points e.g. on the neck that make you lose consciousness if you press them. You can do it very surreptitiously - not like hitting someone - and you can then pretend they're drunk and prop them up in a seat somewhere and nobody will know any different. You could even hide their instrument while they're unconscious. It's great: nobody falls out or gets hurt and the musicians can continue to enjoy the session.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Dow
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Dashing out to the airport, didn't read much of this, but Michael right to tell him to stop. The other bloke should have asked why and maybe got some guidance rather than huffing.
I do it all the time, usually with bodhtran players, but once with a piper.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Classic Dow.
. where have you been?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by session savage
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
daddae, I can't imagine not having someone in charge at a session.
Yes, I'm the default de-facto leader of ours. Why?
Because musicians are a shy, unassuming lot. HA HA! NOT!
No, I don't know why, and why do I keep hearing about these aimless sessions with no one in charge?
It's not often I have to act as the Sergeant-at-Arms, once in a great while, but someone's got to keep the group together via email or phone calls, and coordinate with the pub owner. Someone's got to keep the action moving, or let it take a break, etc.
Don't they?
I mean, if it's myself and one or two other players of competence then, as I said above, there isn't much for a 'leader' to do except smile and play.
But, in those rare cases, someone's got to step up and do what needs to be done, as in Michael's initial post here.
Or, you’ll end up with a dead session, right?
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
>But perhaps each session should have a leader whose job is to politely, gently, constructively weed out the musicians who are doing harm to the session.
No thanks, not for me. Anyway who are these self-appointed leaders? If you're one of the lead musicians ie one of the people that starts up a fair number of the sets, it does *not* naturally fall upon you to also be the session policeman/woman, even if you do get the most repect and credibilty, etc, because you can hold the tunes together. You may very well be a shy person, or just a non-confrontational person. - I'm neither of those two but I don't fancy telling anyone to eff off, even though I have done in the past. Also there is no such thing as "should" in playing out at sessions.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It was an honest question. I really don't know if the standard session protocol is a Sergeant-at-Arms session leader, or whether that would even be a good or bad idea (though I'll fall in with KML here and say I'd respectfully decline the position if offered). My first hope is that a rational and genteel musical society polices itself so there is never a need to offend or embarras a fellow sessioneer who is obviously bollixing a session. But obviously that is not universally the case.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by daddae
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
You're right Dow, that is of course the only way forward. I can't believe no-one else thought of that!
Of course, while we're there, we should mention slipping sleeping drugs into the session-killer's Guinness, chloroform on his whistle mouthpiece, learning hypnosis, etc...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Joe CSS
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I've enjoyed reading this...nice contributions and tales, I do like the clientel here
, a great session ~ Llig, even if he is a bit scary, The Muse, Kennedy, GOW, Joe Cascading Style Sheet, Fish, Greg, BC, JNE, Jon, Mark, Ben (I remember!), Rafa, Jim, SS, bogman, québécois, Beg F, Key, daddae, ramblin'pitchfork, Dow's Vulcan neck grip (I haven't yet mastered it, maybe it has something to do with the ears?), SWFL ~ whew, so much well said and stories too, not fogetting the rest of you, 'etc.', but my current state is less than complete itself... I was needing the distraction...
I agree with the need for a session to have definition and direction. My experience is that it works best as an oligarchy rather than a dictatorship, that there isn't just one person taking and dishing out all the flack. Where it has been left to just one person, too often they burn out, give up, and move on, and the session often folds... Or, as has also happened, where the one focus up and moved and the session ended, well, it was a 'gathering', the one I'm holding in my mind right now, music and dance too, music for dance. One person left and it just ended...
I can see problems with the self-appointed, in the singular. The better sessions and gatherings I've known were usually under the nurture of a few people who'd had the original idea, though sometimes the 'idea' runs away from the founders, and sometimes they do the running as well, out the door and somewhere else. Where there has been a core of musicians, usually a few, it seems they are better able to keep the heart of it beating and when they share responsibility and support one another there is less tension over all and things are handled more even tempered ~ than if one person is expected to be the bouncer. Then, understandably, they can loose their patience and things can be very abrupt. Without heart and some kind of focus and direction ~ anyone can get up and vent their grief. I've seen things get unnecessarily nasty when that happens... It hasn't always been the case, but I much prefer to be involved in starting and nurturing something in good company, than on my own... The things I feel best about, the greater successes, were team efforts, even if it were just a few of us, and when we had to be 'firm', it was a collective decision and whoever handed out the pink slip had the rest behind the action... Mostly it was kind, but sometimes the person responsible for the disruptions doesn't allow it to be anything else than "Please leave, you're not welcome here!" I'm pleased to say that was rare...but there were times...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
ceolachan, that makes an enormous amount of sense to me. Thanks for the thoughtful post.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by daddae
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes, please let me clarify. I don't mean I sit there as the Grand Poobah and dispense orders. I mean I'm the one everybody asks questions to. "Does the owner blah blah blah?" "Is it OK if we blah blah blah?" "Will there be a session on blah blah blah?" "Should we play blah blah blah now?" "Hey Ian, Hey Ian, Hey Ian..."
Why is everyone asking me these questions?!? HA!
I don't know how it happened, it just did. Perhaps because I'm the one who loves it the most, I took it upon myself to keep everyone organized, scout the potential locations, talk to the pub owners, keep it all together, etc. I don't sit there and dictate what happens, these are all adults, most of them older than I, and they're all wonderfully intelligent, musical folk. All of them know what we all want from the session and help us collectively "make it so". On those rare occasions when we need to have a bit of policing it really happens as a collective effort, or I'm expected to do something, and I do it.
...and in all honesty, if they didn't have this crazy obsessed fiddler keeping them all together, I don't know if we would have carried on in several different locations over the years now. I'm not being egotistical at all. I'm just the most dedicated fanatic and I keep a loose band together enough for continuity's sake.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I gotta say its a tough call......I personally would not have said anything to this person incase it would upset him/her.I think the sessons are all about learning and everyone learns from their mistakes.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by Allissa
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yo! Grand Poobah! ~ I might make an exception with you...
~ but you aren't getting me in one of those outfits and turbans...
Sadly Allissa, some people never do learn, and as you read the stories above, they can cause considerable damage. In the few moments where I or others have been pressed to act, in one instance we suggested they go and start their own session. Another we had continually told the guitarist-singer-songwriter that we didn't do 'sets of songs'. We didn't mind one occassionally, but they insisted in sets. We kindly asked them to leave, and we might have suggested they start their own singers circle somewhere else, but not with us. Crazy, they still persisted and didn't seem to understand. Eventually we got them to leave...
You want a laugh, much of what we've done included food, and there is still some of that, what we call a "Jacob's Join". We have been put in the position to tell someone they weren't welcome because they only came in time for the food, and, they started eating before the meal was set or announced...
There are incorridgible (without direct intervention at least) people out there that desperately need institutionalization... The sad thing is that they don't seem to realize that, they tend to blame everyone else. So the musician who comes to subject us to their inabilities but thinks they can ~ sometimes nothing works and you have to excuse them and show them the way out... Doing that on your own is hell, speaking personally. I hate it, it actually twists me up inside. Having a committee, even if it is only two, lessens the stress and tends to balance it a bit better. To act on committee, on agreement, is much better than acting on instinct alone...
I'm in agreement with the welcome, but being swift as possible to correct something, like a misunderstanding, with forthought, before it escalates to an act made as a reaction out of pent up frustration and anger...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
SWFL ~ take my word for it, and you can ask Dow and other too, share the responsibility, share the stress. If you do, and suddenly your drawn away, you'll have others that can keep the tradition you've helped to found and maintain ~ going... But get rid of the baggy silk trousers, the turbans and those curly toed shoes... And the hookahs, what has that got to do with the music anyway? Hmmm, maybe belly dancing isn't such a bad idea after all Grand Poobah...
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think Michael did what he had to do, to preserve his session. Good sessions die in many ways--neglect, apathy, loss of focus--but most are killed by the management of the venue, because the managers feel that the session is not helping to keep their business afloat.
It might not be a "performance" or "entertainment" in the minds of the session players but that's the reality of it, when you play in somebody else's room--other people hear it, and react to it, and the management is in charge of keeping them happy. If the punters are unhappy, you're out.
So you can't allow clueless, random noisemakers free rein to drive away the good players, and degrade the quality of the music to the point where the manager gets complaints, and has to shut it down.
If you host the session at your home, you can make it as all-inclusive as you like. But if the session leader--and one designated person is better than a committee, for dealing with the venue management, imho--has made a deal with the management for a certain kind of session, the leader is obligated to hold up his end of the bargain. The other session regulars should back him up, of course, but it really is up to the session leader to make the call.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by mickray
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
If there are six fine musicians and one disrupter, why do we think we need to consider only his/her feelings. Everyone else made the effort to learn the tunes and be there. They did so with certain expectations for the evening. They deserve the most consideration.
I am becoming more bold as time goes on simply out of respect for everyone who came out. It is only fair.
# Posted on March 13th 2008 by feardearg
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
The question this raises in my mind is whether Michael is as abrasive, insensitive and judgemental in real life as he is noted for being here?
I don't think "right" and "wrong" has much to do with it - it's a question of relationship skills.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Lingpupa
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
What does it really matter if someone is "abrasive, insensitive and judgemental" (although I wouldn´t say he is)" is he´s saying things that need to be said?
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Björn
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
That shoulda been "If" he´s saying... I don´t visit C&F much anymore because of the (correct me if I´m wrong) general attitude of" I play the pennywhistle like I want to play, and my great great grandmother was half Irish and there´s nothing worng with sheet music etc etc". On that board and here there are a handful (not more) of people who really know what they´re talking about, and it seems like those few people are the ones that, for some strange reason, rub people the wrong way.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Björn
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Just to add to that, cos I´m in a grmupy mood faoi láthair, why is it that invariably only the most most pointless threads get the most responses? Things like the use of the word "Celtic", and "Celtic rock" and anything to do with bodhráns.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Björn
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Most of the threads on here are actually "pointless". Many have repeated themes, and many of the same arguments are re-runs carried out by the same protagonists. That doesn't mean they aren't fun to contribute to or just to read. The trick is not to bother taking it too seriously. Chucking in your tuppenceworth on here is miles away from actually sitting playing at a session or a gig.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
It's funny - I love critism.
Really i do.
Seriously - I'd love to play with people like Llig or Dow who wouldn't walk on eggshells - if I'm sh*te tell me, tell me where to improve, what to listen out for etc...
It's the only way to learn....otherwise it's just sugary niceness that means F-all at the end of the day.
Of course we can still be nice, but don't hold back on me.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by BegF
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"just sugary niceness that means F-all at the end of the day" Exactly, but as soon as someone says something that isn't all-inclusive, and "it´s only folk music" instead of mentioning that it´s takes a fair bit of skill to play this music people get all upset, and the thread goes downhill from there.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Björn
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Jaysus, reading my last few post again I just have to mention that I'm just after coming home from the pub after band practice. When I'm sober I can spell, and can form coherent sentences.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Björn
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I have never been asked to leave a session even though I am a piano player who has to use an electronic keyboard if I want to participate in the music making. When some other musicians started a local Irish Jam Session here in Arkansas in 1995 and I asked them which instrument I should bring to the session, I was asked to bring my genuine imitation piano (a Roland EP-90 Digital Piano) so I could help "fill out" the sound at the Irish Session as a my contribution to the general cacophony.
Since then, whenever I travel out of state, I bring my Digital Piano with me in case I find a friendly session which will let me join them to play music.
The only time I was told that I wasn't welcome to sit in at a session was at The Plough And Star in San Francisco, California on a Tuesday night in 1999. I did ask politely if I might join them but the fiddle player who seemed to be in charge acted as if I should never even have asked to join them. He seemed to think I should be seen and not heard even though there was an upright piano in one corner of the bar.
Whenever I do play my genuine imitation piano at a session, I am careful to keep the volume low and try to blend in as much as possible because I am there to make music with the other musicians instead of trying to work against them. I am not at the session just to hear myself play because I can easily record myself and then listen to my playing at home. I am there at the session to listen to the other musicians and to try to contribution to the general cacophony of the session by accompanying the other musicians.
Since the local Irish Sessions were started in 1995, four bands have been started by musicians who participate in these sessions.
I did get to play piano with one of these bands but I have never been asked to perform with the other three bands. I guess they don't think I am good enough to be allowed to perform with them. And, furthermore, some of the people in these other three bands rarely or almost never participate in the Irish Sessions any longer. The people who started these other three bands were some of the best and strongest lead players at the local session.
One evening, when none of these people showed up for the local session, I had to lead the session and I am just the piano player. No, I didn't enjoy having to play lead all evening and wished someone else was there who could help me but there was no one. There was even a girl who wanted to dance and I had to pick something for her to dance to and then lead the small group through the tune.
I guess some of the lead players think they are too good now to mingle with us common folk at the sessions any more.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by fauxcelt
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"I guess some of the lead players think they are too good now to mingle with us common folk at the sessions any more."
You might be on to something there!
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by gw
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I've been in Michael's shoes on a number of occasions.
It's no fun, and it's not easy, but it sometimes must be done. If we let one enthusiastic but inexperienced and misguided soul disrupt our session and drive away the participants with several decades of experience, we wouldn't have much of a session left, would we?
Unfortunately it seems most often to be people with a bodhran, though there have been a few players of other instruments too. For several years I've taken the initiative to approach newcomers who have a round case in hand, introduce myself and ask them their name, pose a question or two about what sort of tunes they like to play and where, and then say something along the lines of "We've had mixed results with bodhran players here, some good and some not so good. Please sit down and play a set or two with us, and keep your eyes open as well as your ears. You'll know soon enough if you're welcome or not."
Usually that's all that's required, and the problem sorts itself out. However, there are those that don't get the message even with the above caution, and who are oblivious to all hints and gestures. So they are told, quietly and gently, that they need to put their instrument away. Some storm out, some stay and listen.
We have also tried to share the load amongst the anchor players, but for various reasons I'm often the one that ends up giving the word. The preemptive prep seems to soften the blow when it's required, but as I said it's still not easy to do, and usually leaves at least a bit of a bad taste afterwards.
I do more encouragement of beginners than discouragement by far, but we have to set a limit in order to survive and flourish.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Jumper
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
LOL - Isn't that a hoot? The Plough in SF in 1994 is where I first got my musical teeth kicked in too. My three jigs and two hornpipe contributions were about as warmly welcomed as a used colostomy bag. I was a rank beginner and couldn't keep up. I was told to stop playing, and "go home and learn some proper tunes." It was a sobering experience, but it did light a fire under me to get better. I'm a bit competitive anyway, and their rather brusque review of my musical incompetence had me practicing for hours a day afterwards and listing to every recording of this music I could find.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
The Plough in SF is in my neck of the woods. It's going to be the first session I attend--just so I can get the boot (look out Junji, here I come). I'll take it as a badge of honor
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by gw
Grand Poobah?
http://media.merchantcircle.com/16234966/fredwaterbuff_medium.jpeg
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think I'l pass on S.F. for now and just go to the Black Rose in Santa Rosa... eventually.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Fishmonger
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
LOL - Thanks SWFL - I've always enjoyed the 'stones....
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Björn said:
"here there are a handful (not more) of people who really know what they´re talking about, and it seems like those few people are the ones that, for some strange reason, rub people the wrong way."
Bravo Björn ! I wish that these pages permitted that handful of people to tell what they know about this music, so that we can all learn and benefit. It would be so much more pleasant and worthwhile to be here, rather than the constant jostling to be in the limelight and junk threads along the lines of 'What are your 100 favourite insults'
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
fauxcelt, the Plough & Stars is my local and I've been going to sessions there since 1988. Over the years the "hosts" have changed and even now they rotate between different people every night so you can't judge the Plough sessions on what happened on any given night. I don't know who the fiddler would have been on a Tuesday night in 1999, but I'd say as a general rule when piano players that no one knows just show they’re going to be received cautiously. We have had people show up and play the upright piano that we've had to ask to "please stop," so it's not about you personally. Also, seats around the session table are often at a premium and if someone shows up with an electric keyboard it could take up more space than would be reasonable. If you were already known, or one of the hosts, it would be an entirely different story.
The first Tuesday of the month these days has one of the hosts bringing in an electric keyboard, but she comes early and moves tables to arrange it in a way with her back to the wall and at an angle that ends up only taking up one musician's space. This arrangement would be impossible if someone unknown showed up after the fact. And then since the hosts wouldn't know if you could play or not until after everything was adjusted,; it could get dicey. What if we went through all the trouble only to find out the piano player's a bomb? Then what would we do?
The bottom line is that you're visiting the session; the session hosts aren't there to become your session.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Jusa Nutter Eejit, your experience at the Plough & Stars happened during a time when myself and a friend were the sole hosts of the Sunday session. I noticed in your profile you said, "I picked up the tenor banjo in 1994 or so and have been chasing down the tunes and melodies of my childhood ever since." Now I don't remember the incident, and I apologize if we hurt your feelings, but you have to take into consideration that my friend and I had already been playing for 15 to 20 years at that point and we didn't leave the comfort of our homes on Sunday nights just to go to the pub and baby-sit beginners.
Having said that, I also learned about this the hard way and as you say, "got my musical teeth kicked in." Just like with you, it prompted me to go home and practice -- but that was a good thing.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Faux, if you really like the tunes, why not learn to play them on an instrument that they are more suited too? (With the added bonus that these are invariably more portable)
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes! ~ As has been said, and as with Llig ~ even when you've got a committee of more than one, still highly recommended, it still tends to fall on the shoulder of one to do the honours...
At least you can seek solace with the regulars afterwards knowing they kicked you under the table to act. Yeah, it isn't always about free choice. For me, I'm often cowering in a corner trying to ignore it and someone pokes me and says "Would you please do something about that!" (no question in the inflection.) One for all and all for one, eh?
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by ceolachan
If no one is willing to act, it slides downhill... But I like how jumper puts it, and when I have had some responsibility, that is my prefered choice ~ the welcome for starters...
I enjoyed the saga of the "Plough & Stars", someone should write a history, with photos...
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
One exception where number helped ~ we used to hold a regular dance & Jacob's Join (potluck) in this wonderful large old house with interconnecting rooms that went round in a circle, with double doors, so you could pull back all the doors and have a circular dance floor through four rooms. Yes, it posed some interesting sound differences as the musicians were all in one of the four rooms. Anyway, being generous and 'inclusive', folks were invited. We even sent out an invitation to the other local dance groups, including the RSCDS (Royal Scottish Country Dance Society). This would be part of the root of my general distaste for what the RSCDS stands for, history and in practice.
Back to the story ~ they showed up, in regalia, and with half a dozen musicians. They were welcomed. We were pleased, more musicians, new music, and we liked Scottish music, it and Irish are good companions, in the right hands and setting. Amongst their musicians was a keyboardist, with some version of an 88 full key sized electrical wonder, and an accompanying boom box amplifier. Knowing a little about such things, this added to the worry the costumes had already started.
It seems our more casual and laidback way of things wasn't to their liking and they literally tried to take over. It got so we couldn't get a tune in edgewise. Worse, the keyboardist played for everything, even when it was obvious they hadn't a clue, didn't know the music. What they did do was beat everything to death ~ BOOM CHUCK!
We had to find some way to swing it back to our norm, something more community oriented and not so RSCDS dominant. Collectively we had to, in as diplomatic a way as possible, tell them that wasn't how we did things. Their exit could be described as a HOOMPH!, a pout and marching out in a huff... Another worry was when the piano player told us that if they hadn't married they would have been a concert performer. Ha! None of us saw that potential in their heavy handed-ness, no subtleties there.
So, in this instance ~ we had to ask several someones to stop playing ~ please! They never came back, but the welcome remained and was maintainted for as long as we had this lovely little gathering going... That was the first unpleasant mass invasion on this issue I've ever faced, fortunately not alone ~ though it was me they pushed to the front, yet again...
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Did I mention the keyboard came with rhythm box features?
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Björn: "What does it really matter if someone is "abrasive, insensitive and judgemental" (although I wouldn´t say he is)" is he´s saying things that need to be said?"
If I have to answer that I'd be wasting my fingers. Good grief!
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Lingpupa
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"Seriously - I'd love to play with people like Llig or Dow who wouldn't walk on eggshells - if I'm sh*te tell me, tell me where to improve, what to listen out for etc..."
Sorry to disappoint, BegF, but I've had a think about this, and I don't think I'd ever be as brave as Michael and just tell someone to stop playing, although I have witnessed other people do this in sessions before, and found the whole thing really painful to watch. I'd always have this thing where I'd imagine that person was my own parent or something, and that would always stop me. I'd also be painfully reminded of sessions that I've ruined myself over the years through not understanding the music properly. I was never asked to stop playing back then and perhaps I should have been. Fortunately there were people who cared about seeing me improve enough to take me aside and give me hints for how to improve my playing. So that's the approach I take these days. I've been known to give hints to people during the session or afterwards during a chat, and it's always been taken with good grace, thank god. Things like "your first beat of the bar is on time, but I was listening to you very carefully, and it sounds as though the other beats are slightly behind - you need to pay more attention to getting that backbeat accurate as well, otherwise it'll throw the melody players off", and then I'll say "it's ok, I remember doing exactly the same thing" or something so they know that you're trying to help them so that they can enjoy sessions more in the long term. This stuff is difficult to deal with. Llig's solution is just one way of approaching it. He's not in the wrong. Those of you who say "the music should be for everyone", well, Michael could simply say "yes, it is for everyone, therefore one person does not have the right to spoil it for everyone else, so the problem should be nipped in the bud before it gets out of hand".
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Dow
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yep - and to reinforce the point "the music should be for everyone" and yes that holds true - BUT - it has to still be music. It sounds like yer man, by his thumping, was making it not be music any longer.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
This is a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation with, IMO, one right answer.
I was that person once, and it was not handled appropriately at all. I'm past it, and I very occasionally attend the session -- and now I know what to do, and I do it. What might be helpful for others to think about is that had I been taken aside and talked to politely, perhaps given the name of a session etiquette Website or two, I would have responded very well to that. Having a session anchor scream at me, "Go home and practice!" is what I mean by not appropriate, BTW. It's not only appropriate, it's abuse by any context. If someone had simply said something to me in a reasonable fashion, perhaps mentioned that there was a thriving local slow play at the time (which I didn't know), I would have been very receptive. And the only reason I return at all, ever, is because it got back to me that she had been taken to task by pretty much everyone there or who had ever been there. When I go there, I don't speak to her, and she doesn't speak to me; that's how it is going to stay.
My point is: try a friendly and reasonable conversation, perhaps an agreement among the session leaders that one of them will step out of the session for a bit for the purpose of buying the person a drink , and explaining, first of all, that there is a way the session goes that has been working a long time, and this is how it goes. If this is ignored, then it's appropriate, I think, to ask people to stop playing. But try the reasonable discussion first.
I'm not completely unsympathetic to the situation which began this thread. I know of several instances where it is hopeless and that is truly all that can be done. I know of one guy whom I have personally seen told on several if not many occasions -- and I've said pointedly myself, "This is really dance music, so it's important to keep the rhythm steady -- and he ignores all input of any kind. I left a session I'd attended regularly south of SF because there were not one but three such offenders, and nothing was done, and all fun was gone from the session as far as I was concerned. So there may be a time and a place for asking someone to leave. But try a reasonable discussion first; okay?
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by cathrynb
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Sometimes, hints are can be too subtle and some players think you're "just joking".
The only real way is to be clear and firm about it. Not necessarily nasty but get the message across.
I'm afraid I'm not very good at being direct either and mostly either put up with it or have a wee grump to myself.
In my younger days... though I wasn't that young then and I'm not really that old now...... I was on the receiving end of "a rollicking" re my "strumming being too loud". This came from a piano accordion player so it must have been true.
Needless to say, I learned my lesson quickly although I wished the floor would swallow me up!
It should be mentioned here(I don't think it hasbeen so far) that Sandy Bells is a very small pub and the session there tends to be quite cosy. It's usually held at one table although it sometimes spreads to two.
An evening session there isn't really the place for novices although learners etc are not unwelcome as long as they respect the regulars. I have played there myself(not much lately) although it has usually been in the more Scottish sessions and it is generally good fun and welcoming enough. However, I would always defer to the "better players" and those who go there far more regularly than me.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Key will you please stop agreeing with me all the time? You're starting to freak me out.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Dow
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yeah Dow, I agree.
So my new tactic for doing your head in is working, then.....
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I'd rather you were mean and horrible to me, Key - at least I know where I stand. Please go back to being your old sweaty horrible Glaswegian self and throw some lame insults at me so I can then do my normal thing of coming back with something far cleverer and wittier.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Dow
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Well, if you do persist in saying things that make sense, most uncharacteristic of you I may add, then I'll have no option but to agree with you. What's gotten into you lately? Why are you saying things that are sensible for a change?
You don't know how much it goes against the grain for me to agree with you -- maybe this is YOUR new tactic, actually - to say things that I'm bound to agree with, so I'll eventually freak out.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Phantom Button - no apologies required! It was a big crowd that night and I was making every faux-pas a newbie could possibly make - I deserved to be sent home. Besides, it wasn't you or your mate who shut me down anyway. It was a flute player and his friend and we were sitting around the edges of the session.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I was at a drawing group last night, mixed abilities: some people can draw really well, and other people are beginners, everyone gets along just fine. So what's the difference between this and a session? The difference is that the people who can't draw don't come over and scribble all over your work! This is what accompanists who can't play do at sessions!
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by RichardB
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Dow and Cathryn hint at a simple principle that works well in these situations--praise in public, criticize in private. If someone's playing is bad enough that it's disrupting the session, invite them to the bar for a pint and have that chat. Or find time to talk with them at home, between sessions. Offer help, if you can.
The criticism will still sting, but if offered in private and constructively, it's not humiliating--just a reality check. And we all need that once in a while.
Granted, some people will get mad anyway. Some people will refuse to hear the kindness is such an approach, or refuse to believe the critique. At some point, you may have to be more blunt (and public) to protect the session's integrity. But the private, one-on-one approach is worth trying first.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yes (and not just agreeing for the sake of it, honest!), but michael probably didn't have the opportunity in his scenario, and instead performed emergency radical surgery.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
What Will and cathrynb said.
Last week, our session leader, who happens to be my music teacher, (privately, and very gently) took me to task for, shall we say, taking a few too many liberties with regards to rhythm. The problem stemmed more from overexcitement and social cluelessness than from lack of technical skill on my part, and this my teacher appeared to recognize. Contrite, I returned to the session the next night with his directive ("follow me") in mind, and asked him for his feedback at the end of the evening. "Much better," he told me. "This isn't an issue anymore," and that was that.
I will be returning to the session tonight, and two important things will be true: 1) I will not feel humiliated or unwelcome, which I would (if I even bothered to return at all!) if my teacher had instead instructed me to just stop playing; and 2) the quality of music will be better than it was two weeks ago, before I was taken aside. Both of these things are important, and a good session host treads that fine line between making everyone feel welcome and maintaining a certain level of quality, music-wise.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Tall, Dark, and Mysterious
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yep, Danny, there are times where radical surgery is needed. For instance, I've given the boot to people who were too drunk to play but who insisted on making a racket anyway.
And the scenario can be quite different in big city sessions that may be plagued with a steady stream of potential session wreckers. Perhaps small town sessions are less likely to suffer this, so it's easier to take a more patient approach. Plus, in the small town I live in, it's part of the culture to resolve misdemeanors as far as possible in a way that lets people save face. Public humiliation and the excommunication it often entails is reserved for more serious crimes.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Actually CPT, our small town problems are often worse because you KNOW the offending session killers. It is much easier to insult a stranger than it is your kids basketball coach. This has been a popular thread because dealing with session bollixers is, obviously, a universal problem. At least I know you all share my pain ;)
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by daddae
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
True - amazing that there are 135 posts - well, now 136!
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Yep, this one stuck a chord alright. The thing for newer players to remember though is that the regulars are probably going to be perfectly happy with your company providing you only play the tunes you know and make sure you are not as loud as the more experienced players.
A girl who sometimes goes to our sessions and is progressing on the fiddle brings a list of the couple dozen tunes she knows and we try to play as many of them as we can through the evening. She plays quietly and is more than welcome anytime. By working out session manners earlier on she has the regulars wanting to involve her rather than count the minutes till she goes - as apposed to the over confident poor percussion players that have caused us some stress.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by bogman
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
daddae, that's my point--in a small town, you're more inclined to help the offending party save face. In a big city, you can just tell them to stop playing. If they don't like it, they simply vanish back into the faceless masses beyond the pub.
But the small-town approach is more likely to produce a win-win for the player in question and the session.
That said, big city sessions I've been too seem to suffer a steady stream of thrashers, bashers, and prima donnas. That explains at least in part why they might take more abrupt measures--you can't spend all your time fending off the not-ready-for-prime-time players. There'd be no time left to play tunes.
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I presume the person who drops in and causes problems may well have had a string of similar unique experiences in other sessions...
# Posted on March 14th 2008 by Mark Harmer
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Regarding the suggestion of politely taking the offender aside: sometimes I'm too busy having fun playing tunes to stop and council an offender. Sometimes you just have to tell them straight out they're getting in the way regardless of how embarrassing it might be. There's the direct approach, (like what Michael did,) and there's a wide variety of more subtle and less reliable approaches. But sometimes there isn't enough time to waste on tact and you get frustrated and just have to blurt it out – get the job done so to speak so you can get back to doing what you came to do – play tunes.
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I agree, Jack. It all depends on the situation. Someone who's truly derailing the session needs to be told straight off.
Even then, though, it may be possible for someone in the circle to pull them aside, get it over with in two minutes, and get back to the tunes.
The few times I've seen someone bark at an offender right out in public, though, the offender storms off in a huff or makes a scene, and it sours everyone's mood for the rest of the evening. That's why I'll usually pull the person aside and try to take care of things as constructively and discreetly as possible. If that fails, then all bets are off.
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
True enough, but there's no guarantee that the polite approach will work either. I've seen times where great effort was made to be discreet and tactful only to result in a response that causes uproar.
Case in point: we had a heavy-handed piano player that everyone was complaining about and looking to me to do something. This person would come in a physically start shoving people out of the way of the piano even while they were playing. Then the offender would plant them self down and start pounding out chords that would cancel out any other back up that was going on and overwhelm the session. I approached the person with care and explained the problem, but I was met with indifference regardless of my thoughtful approach. So I decided to sit in the chair directly in front of the piano myself. Being 6'4" and weighing over 200 pounds, I was too big for this person to shove out of the way. When they demanded I move I quietly said I would make room as soon as the session thinned out a bit. (It was very crowded at the time.) The piano player stormed off and began a campaign of lies about how I told them they couldn't play in our session. I spent years after that explaining to people how it wasn't true. Some people bought the fabricated story without bothering to investigate, and it created a rift in the community for quite some time.
Eventually that particular piano player alienated them self from every session in town and I was absolved... but what a pain. Remember now -- I took the time to be polite and tactful in this case.
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
RichardB: The difference is that the people who can't draw don't come over and scribble all over your work!
'c': I loved that analogy Richard...
It is interesting that those who are more vocal about being direct and not wasting time are both involved in what are 'big city' sessions ~ Llig & Button... I think it is true that their patience has probably been tried more frequently than small sessions or those in the 'rural outback'...
We've mostly been that latter, but there have been times we've been pushed to the edge and had to react in an uncomfortable but necessary way, such as asking one or more to leave, "please"... My nature is to try the way that Will mentioned ~ praise in public, criticize (constructively) in private, at least for starters...
cathrynb, I wouldn't have shouted at you...
Sometimes people take it on themselves to do the delivery ~ and not necessarily supported by the regulars or the session as a whole. I've witnessed that too. I've actually also chased down some folks when I saw some a*shole put them down who had no business doing so, someone who wasn't elected or representative of the 'establishment'... In at least one incident, after such repeated rudeness, the person doing the delivering was asked to leave, but not before having been warned several times about putting newcomers and 'beginners' off... Worse, and it seems the norm, this person wasn't a particularly good musician themself, and was no loss... Things actually grew more pleasant in their absence...
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I like RichardB's analogy too.
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Agreed, telling the offender privately is the best option. But if it's a crowded situation, it might not be easy to take the person aside.
The only time I ever loudly told somebody to leave the circle involved a drunk. He was too drunk to sit up, kept slowly leaning to one side or the other, wanting to borrow an instrument--which he had done a couple of times before, when he wasn't so completely schnockered. But he was obviously disturbing the players sitting next to him, and I lost my temper. And you're right, it did sort of spoil the mood.
The real shame it is that, at some point, I think he really could play, and knew the music well--but by the time we encountered him, his addictions had taken over.
Truth is, I still feel bad about it, and I would love to meet that guy again, find out that he has straightened himself out, and play some tunes with him. But I don't know it that will ever happen.
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by mickray
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
All we can hope for is that we do the best we can, with what we have, at the time.
And all we can ask of others is that they reciprocate. Without reciprocity, we might as well blow a gasket and tell the feckers off--they've earned it at that point.
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Mickray, he broke you, not the other way around. I have no problem with seeing a drunk removed, or in getting others to help or lend backing for that. That is a case where it needs to be done sooner than later. If that drunk had grabbed or fallen on an instrument you would have really had a spoiled session. It is a case of cruety being one of the only options, with any addict. Honesty rules, and that isn't really cruel, the cruelty is what that person is doing to themselves. Some folks melt into drunkeness and you can leave them be, others become obnoxious and demanding. There, if in a pub and with good relations I might actually ask the publican for some help. I've seen where some serious conflict can arise from that sort of drunk. The responsibility for cure is with the addict, the drunk, whether or not they can or could ever play music...
Don't get me wrong, I do sympathize, and I've given some small amount of time to groups providing shelter, care and counseling for addiction. And, curiously, I've never met a drunk I didn't like, on that side of it, but you can't take that much time or effort at a session, IMHO... Worse, and it has happened, when it is a friend you're talking about. I've been there...
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
What ceolachan said about the drunk. I also recall a thread on here in this same vein where it sounded like the session-smasher might have been psychotic. I was an office manager for a homeless placement office in San Francisco for a while, and the behavior as described sounded far too familiar. In that case, it's the same thing: get them out of there. The fact that they can't help it and thus deserve a certain amount of sympathy doesn't mean they're not capable of real harm.
And all true, Will CPT. If they can respond to respectful intervention, well, it's worth a try to find that out. If not, they deserve the rejection, IMO.
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by cathrynb
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
'c' -- yes, a helpful waitress quickly stepped up, made sympathetic noises to the belligerent drunk, and gently guided him to the door. It was masterfully done. If I ever need ejecting, I would want her to do it, because the woman is a true artist. ;>}
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by mickray
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I've been politely "re-directed" when I was noodling and when I should or should not start a tune. Glad for the hints. Won't do it again.
On another note--where would we all be without llig? Like Reggie Jackson said, "I'm the straw that stirs the drink."
Cheers.
# Posted on March 15th 2008 by InSearchofCraic
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Since when is someone who's maybe had a few more than they should, automatically labelled an addict? I think that's that's nasty.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Thanks, Michael. I must admit, I was beginning to feel uncomfortable myself, as I've definitely had more than I should on more than one occasion. Yet, at my regular session, I hardly ever drink.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Ah, the search for absolution, I'm not an alcoholic, I just drink socially... Was I talking about you Michael or Ben? I didn't have you in mind... Is there something you're not telling us ~ or not admitting to yourself?
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I hope neither of you are violient disruptive drunks...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
We can just gently put your instruments away and adjust you so you won't fall out of your seat or hurt yourself or drown in your own vomit, and then let you quietly sleep it off... We might even arrange for someone to drive you home and put you to bed...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
Michael--I'm not being mean, just honest. The fellow in my story was a well-known addict to alcohol and other substances. He was kicked out of every other session in town before finally ending up at our beginner session. We tried to give him a chance, but I never saw him sober. The week previous to the story above, he tried to pick a fight with a staff member who refused to give him a second free pint (one pint per player, that was the deal). He didn't even own an instrument any more. I can only assume he had sold or pawned it to feed his addictions.
And like I said, I would purely love to see him get his act together again, and come to the session with his own instrument--and proper respect for the staff and other players. I hope he does that someday, I really do.
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by mickray
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
And just for record, I have had one too many, myself, on occasion. But that's a different thing than showing up for a session already drunk, and then throwing a fit because the pub won't give you all the free alcohol you want.
Whew. Sorry. I got a little carried away, there. I guess I think the music shouldn't take a back seat to the drinking. This is a hard time of year, for people like me. ;>}
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by mickray
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I agree, mickray, the music shouldn't take a back seat to drink. And it's rare that I have too much, but does happen occasionally.
For the record, ceol, when it does happen, I'm a 'soppy' drunk - I just get sentimental. Which is embarassing, but at least it's easy to deal with. I always think you can tell a lot about someone from how they are when they're drunk ...
# Posted on March 16th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
"your first beat of the bar is on time, but I was listening to you very carefully, and it sounds as though the other beats are slightly behind - you need to pay more attention to getting that backbeat accurate as well, otherwise it'll throw the melody players off"
Posted by Dow way up there somwehere. Yeah this makes sense, in fact Dow has said pretty much exactly that to me before.... and I was much appreciative of it. Believe it or not!
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by kookabat
Re: I asked someone to stop playing last night ...
I think its totally fine to do what you did. If it was the case that he was that bad as you say then it probably was better for him to stop playing than dig a deeper hole for himself. You were probably doing him a favour.
About packing and leaving i wouldn't lose any sleep over it. You probably just hurt his ego a bit and so he couldn't handle just sitting and listening and hence left. He'll get over it. He should have ask if he was playing too loud or if his rythm was distracting aswell, its only manners for an accompanying instrument. People should ask if they can join aswell.
I know how annoying it can be to have someone (like a bodhran player for example) come into a session and have a bad influence on it. I play a regular session in dublin once a week and it is really the only time I would get to play between college and such so if someone like that were to unbalance the session than it would be extremely irritating because I would want to enjoy that session seeing as it would be the only one im able to do.
# Posted on May 17th 2008 by fiddleruairi