Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I would ask Dow, BB or call Kevin.
I know there will be some people in the parade. There might be a session at Durty Nellys in Paddington.
Ill message you when i find out
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I'll be working, thank god. I will be bus driving in the city though, and I swear, if my chosen route takes me past the parade, I will try and mow down as many people as I can. I really want to be as far away from it as possible. It's the worst time of the year in Sydney, when all the wannabe Irish with Aussie accents who had an Irish great great great grandparent come out and show their true "Irishness" by, um, wearing green and singing a couple of songs out of key, just because it's cool and "out there" to be Irish. The Aussies should leave the celebrations to the expats and backpackers who actually *are* Irish, and just let them do their thing without insulting them by doing stuff like putting on fake Irish accents. The whole thing is so horrible. I'd rather saw off my own fingers with a breadknife than play tunes on Paddy's Day. Call me when it's all over Sam and we'll have some nice quiet tunes somewhere.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Dow, how wrong could you possibly be? I thought we'd seen all your most pointless rants, but then you come out with another clanger like that...
In all my time in the scene I am yet to find ONE aussie who buys into the whole bullsh*t Irish-spiritual-ancestry bolox. Aussies suffer from being to much the other way - ie not giving a toss about their cultural heritage. Yeah, sure everyone gets involved on paddy's day but it's out of a sence of NOT being irish that they do it - you know, lets all drink porter and sing danny boy - not because they're Irish but because EVERYONE (including my fiercly greek-australian ex-boss) does that sh*t on Paddy's day. It's completely de-contextualised.
This is in huge contrast to the the American-Irish people i met when i lived in Ireland. They felt a massive connection to being irish - even if their ancertors left in the mid 1800s or whatever. and again, the reason this struck me is because you just DO NOT see that kind of thing here.
theories of the reasoning behind this aussie disconnection are quite interesting, but totally not worth bringing up after your slightly unnerving post dowster. sad.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Dow - I'll sell you breadknife at very good price....in fact I'll send one over free of charge. As long as I get it back clean, without any blood or connective tissue or bone fragments stuck in the serrations. But then how are you going to be able to clean it? Or even, how are you going to saw the fingers off your other hand?
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Sorry to break this to you, but fake-Irishness is just as bad over here as in the States, SirNose. I'm glad for you that you're blind to it. Stay that way!
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"It's completely de-contextualised"
Yeah, exactly, so why bother? You can get p*ssed any day of the year, so why do you have to pretend to be Irish to do it? Fake Irish Aussies have no idea what it is to be Irish. A lot of them have never even been there. They have no connection to the culture at all, but apparently just because they have a distant Irish relative that makes them Irish? *That's* sad...
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
This is terrible. For the second time in a week I find myself completely agreeing with Dow.
In that context I'd be as well calling myself Irish, since my Gaelic-speaking ancestors were from the North of Scotland whose ancestors in turn most likely came from Ireland some 1300 years previously.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I had Irish great grandparents, but I would never call myself Irish, even for one day of the year. How could I? It would be insulting. I'd like to direct SirNose's attention to this wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_Paddy. The quote by Alex Massie captures precisely what I'm on about.
OK SirNose, put it this way: turn the whole thing around and imagine that there's a "let's all be Aboriginal" day in Australia, where everyone in Australia (Greeks included) paints themselves black and throws boomerangs and plays didgeridoos in the street. Then they proceed to emphasize every single negative stereotype imaginable, for example by drinking beer out of pretend petrol cans. Wouldn't you be like: "jesus, hang on a minute, there's something not quite right about this".
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
And then if someone who's actually aboriginal goes "hey, what the hell do you know about my culture" you reply, "oh, it's ok, it's like completely de-contextualised", or "it's just an excuse to celebrate and have fun".
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Well, only if you insist, Dow!
Sorry to be a complete dinosaur, but even not so many decades ago, St Patrick's day in Australia was about St Patrick, not guinness, itm, green hats, etc.
We even used to get a holiday off school (if you went to a catholic school). We didn't go to a St Patrick's day parade though, there wasn't one; I think some places had them (maybe Melbourne) but it was a sort of religious parade. St Patrick's day has become something else than what it apparently was, but that's fine for people to identify with the day in whatever way they want, if they want - and it's not why I don't generally go to the parade though. It just seems to be the day when you can't find a session happening, and if you do, you can't hear it! It's enough to drive you to drink.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I agree with you Dow - the plastic paddy thing / fake accent thing
has a little whiff of racism to it. In the USA where I grew up,
this stuff is soaked deeply into the pop culture like Santa Claus, Halloween and the Easter Bunny. Because 60 million plus Americans come from Irish roots and it's part of the dominant culture there and in Australia - people are blind to the racism. Disclaimer: my roots are German/Jewish.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
This is it, mhuppert. SirNose grew up in Australia so he doesn't see it. I come to this country as an immigrant and from where I'm standing it's pretty obvious. If anyone doesn't believe it, I dare them to go up to a random group of drunken Aussies on the day. Now, we all know drunks say revealing things, right? Ask them why they are celebrating when they're not even Irish and have nothing to do with Ireland or Irish culture. Before you know it, you'll be hit by a barrage of outraged, in-yer-face comments to the effect of "I'm as Irish as they come - my grandmother came from Limerick so eff you I'm more Irish than you are! I might not sound it but it's what you feel inside". What you *won't* get is someone saying "Ahhh mate I dunno, it's like completely de-contextualised, know what I mean?"
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Dow, there are more cross sections to Australian society than "random groups of drunken Aussies" or bogans as you have mentioned before. I guess if you are always approaching that demographic for feedback, you are going to get a fairly uniform response. Try asking a different demographic, is my suggestion.
There is a huge proportion of the Australian population that has Irish ancestry mainly from Irish famine times right through to the present day. Why do you suppose that these people would not be aware and proud of their heritage?
Many of the families of these people had a lot to do with building this country in very hard times, and came all around the world to do it...that's respectable.
No centrelink, no medicare, no nothing.
As well, a lot of awareness of Irish background survived in Australia through the catholic church and labour politics.
Something similar to british anglicanism in a different context imo.
Where you were born determines what "nationality" you are, in my understanding, or where you become accepted as a citizen through law. Awareness of the background of your ancestors is something else, as is awareness of what is unique about being Australian. It's all ok, let people explore what they want - it's a whole lot better than being a random drunk, I would have thought.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
And by the way, DD, the fact that you assumed I was talking about "bogans" when I mentioned random drunken Aussies shows *your* prejudice, not mine. Are you suggesting that middle class Aussies don't drink? Puh-leeze!
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
No, but what do you mean by random drunks.
You know, I have heard it said by people in Sydney that people who sit around playing Irish music in pubs are a bit like derros - is that what you mean by random drunks?
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
OK then make that a random white middle class Aussie who is drinking coke because he/she has to do the driving after the celebrations. They'd say exactly the same thing. Try it for yourself on the day.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Hey, Dow, when you're at the nash trying getting out more from the session bar and catch a concert...broadens the mind somewhat.
I hear they might have a workshop on the art of rhetorical argument - try that for yourself on the day.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
i dont care about all that culture stuff i just want tunes
The National is close enough too. Will be interesting to see how we go on this float/truck thing in the parade where I will probably get my dose of plastic paddy participating in that.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
hi Sam,
Isn't it great we've got a uniform now that we can wear to impress other lesser sessioners! Of course I'll be wearing mine at the Nash, along with the stylish guinness hat I got at the pub yesterday.
I am sorry to disappoint you a little, but I think you and I ended up with the girls-size t-shirt Blokes are supposed to wear XL size.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
In response to dows challenge re: asking aussie's if they think there irish...
And this is taken from a very small sample of aussie's at the paddy's gigs i was playing in melbourne yesterday - the responses:
Not irish, and not offended by me asking if they thought they were irish because they were out on paddy's day. every one i asked.
Maybe they didn't open up to me because we were both aussies and therefore couldn't see how shamefully in denial they were about being in denial about how irish they wern't. or something.
in*fact*, i had a rave to a mate of mine from Meath who had spent a fair few paddy's days both in australia and america and *he* (to the furious agreement of his mates) commented on how totally different the "plastic paddy" vibe was in the US compared to here, and that aussie's just tended to come out for the craic.
(interesting aside here, he also had a theory that the Irish pubs in Sydney were much more centred around irish expats {and therefore *may* attract more of the faux-paddy's} whereas Melbourne Irish pubs are full of aussies suits and such and are generally avoided by expats... could this affect my outlook? who knows, i'm only an aussie and therefore have forfitted any right to have an opinion on our national caricture.)
It's always so much fun being lectured by the English.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
The times that I have been to a St Patrick's Day parade (and I have Irish heritage), I have found it very interesting to see, meet and speak with Irish people, and maybe imagined what my forebears might have been like, and how different or similar I am now as a result of other cultural influences over a long time.
I love the humor, it is unmistakeably in my family, I love the rhetoric, it is also a similarity I can see, I can see the care for other people, the commonality and supportiveness between people - more of which the world could do with right now.
I love the music, I am not sure why I do, but it strikes a chord in me like no other music does.
I come away from the parade understanding a little better who I am and why. That's a fairly productive day I would have thought.
SirNose, Melbourne is always full of suits. It's that kinda place.
I would add though - it's always so much fun being lectured by the English who find themselves living here, but are somehow reluctant to do so, and do everything they can not to be seen to be Australian - like bashing Australians. It must be a national pastime or something in that demographic.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Here's my experience of Sunday night - parade night, cut & paste from another thread: I called round the pub after work for a beer, and some drunken bogan Aussie woman came up to me, and because I have a soft, lilting accent, she assumed I was Irish, and went all starry eyed: "I love the Irish" she said, as though there weren't any bad Irish people in existence, and then she actually put on a fake Irish accent for me and said something unintelligible. She went to great lengths to explain to me that her heritage was Irish, and bored me to tears.
OK so that was only one woman, but I was only in the pub for an hour or so, and I didn't talk to any of the other drunken people as I'd gone there to talk to Phoe at the bar. On the other hand, it's not like I even had to *ask* her about her heritage. She couldn't wait to tell me. I get that every year, as soon as I open my mouth, and then I have to disappoint them by telling them I'm not Irish. Now if I actually made an effort to go round and ask people, I'd have come across zillions of people like her. Obviously we just experience Paddy's Day in very different ways, SirNose...
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"The times that I have been to a St Patrick's Day parade (and I have Irish heritage)"
Oh my god, *yawn*?? Yeah so have I got Irish heritage, but it doesn't make me in the least bit Irish, and I don't waste time imagining my forebears to be lone, fiddle-playing herdsmen playing to their livestock in misty green bogs. It's bull, Duijera. Your ancestors might well have been the most horrible criminals imaginable and hated by their community, but you wouldn't want to imagine that now, would you. C'mon now and be real, and sort your identity out. Just be yourself, man.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I didn't say having Irish heritage makes me Irish, in case you missed that, Dow. It just means you have Irish heritage.
Dow, I have my identity well sorted - I'm Australian, and proud of it. I'm not so sure you are though, but don't worry if that's the case, it's not an uncommon phenomenon to go through as a migrant, maybe into the second generation.
I am very comfortable with the reasons why my forebears came here, Dow, for whatever reason they did. Some of the Irish ones came here rather than suffer discrimination in Ireland and then die of starvation others came here with the means to set up major cattle raising enterprises. When they came here they suffered the same discrimination and bashing at the hands of the English, but hey they survived and prospered. My English, French and Scotish forebears came here for other reasons, and all of them helped to build this country. So, I guess you're a bit of a latecomer, Dow, but as you've noticed in this country people will still try to make you welcome despite your efforts to the contrary. Good luck with the English tourists, mate. Aren't they wonderful.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"I'm Australian, and proud of it. I'm not so sure you are though, but don't worry if that's the case, it's not an uncommon phenomenon to go through as a migrant, maybe into the second generation."
I don't know what you mean by this. Of course I'm not Australian. What's your point?
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"Doesn't take much to tease out those prejudices and stereotypes from you does it?"
LOL, Dow. You should talk! You would have to be worst example on this board as far as I can see.
What's your point in plastering this board with your bitter invective?
Have fun with the English tourists then, you'd be well qualified to deal with them, I'd say.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
SirNose, I suggest just settling for asking Dow if he would be proud to be an Australian - not imputing that proud nomenclature to him until he feels he deserves it.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
yeah, the sad thing is the only thing un-australian about dow is how he chooses to label himself. He lives in australia, has done for a very long time, contributes to the australian community, has pretty much 'settled' here, but doesn't claim australia as his 'home'.
Being english and being australian are not mutually exclusive, I was born in england am very proud of both my nationalities (not to mention the slightly handy EU passort side of my englishness...)
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Sorry, don't see how I'm bashing Australians. Most of my mates are Aussie so why would I bash Aussies? Bash Plastic Paddies of all nationalities yes, Aussies for the sake of being Aussie, no.
And the whole thing of "being proud to be Australian/English/American" is banal and ultimately meaningless.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
if you choose to make it meaningless it is. Sense of place is pretty damn important to me... It's why i couldn't stay in ireland for more than a year, because i felt a connection to my aussie-ness and i missed what i conceived of as 'home'
'banal' and 'meaningless' are pretty unhelpful words if you were actually trying to discuss this on some level.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"the sad thing is the only thing un-australian about dow is how he chooses to label himself. He lives in australia, has done for a very long time, contributes to the australian community, has pretty much 'settled' here, but doesn't claim australia as his 'home'."
Why is that a sad thing? You want me to assimilate and become Aussie? Why? Why can't you just let immigrants be themselves instead of putting them all into this imagined big melting pot? Australia's where I live. I live here because the sun shines all the time. Why should that mean I have to label myself as Australian?
I only ask because it's important for the discussion. It has to do with how you view identity and culture itself. And it looks as though it explains the whole Plastic Paddy thing quite satisfyingly, for me anyway...
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Dow, no one is asking you to assimilate, that's up to you. Most people don't give a rats these days. If you want to call yourself English while spending your life in Australia, that's up to you, it's just kind of sad is all. But you are not the only one.
SirNose, Dow is really here (on these boards and in Australia) to learn, mostly about himself. He's learning. Unfortunately for him, he appears to like to learn the hard way. How frightfully English, I dare say.
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Maybe, just, people in the country know how to have a good time. I went to a St Patrick's night last night. No parade , no traditional music , but people gathering together, some Irish, some not, to listen to music and have a good time. It was a beautiful warm night. Balmy outside in the pedestrian mall. Open to all. People stood around or sat around tables, some drank and some ate pizzas. Some just wandered past. A sound guy did a mighty job mixing the performers. Some of the music was simply lovely. There is a lot of musical talent around here. There was some home-grown stuff, some first timers, some people got up spontaneously to dance, a bit of jazz thrown in, some comedy and some people proudly Irish. I didn't see any green beer or any obnoxious behaviour of any kind. It doesn't have to be over the top to be enjoyable. In fact laid back is lovely. I've been so mellowed by the experience that this afternoon I bought my first Aboriginal painting. I dunno, I'm not Aboriginal either, but its easy to appreciate when people want to openly share.
Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Does anyone know if there are any sessions planned for this day and if so where to find them? Thanks!
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by camwebby
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
By that I mean sessions that aren't just a weekly Sunday thing.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by camwebby
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
You wouldn't fancy making your way to London, would you?
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16960
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I would ask Dow, BB or call Kevin.
I know there will be some people in the parade. There might be a session at Durty Nellys in Paddington.
Ill message you when i find out
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by SamW
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I'll be working, thank god. I will be bus driving in the city though, and I swear, if my chosen route takes me past the parade, I will try and mow down as many people as I can. I really want to be as far away from it as possible. It's the worst time of the year in Sydney, when all the wannabe Irish with Aussie accents who had an Irish great great great grandparent come out and show their true "Irishness" by, um, wearing green and singing a couple of songs out of key, just because it's cool and "out there" to be Irish. The Aussies should leave the celebrations to the expats and backpackers who actually *are* Irish, and just let them do their thing without insulting them by doing stuff like putting on fake Irish accents. The whole thing is so horrible. I'd rather saw off my own fingers with a breadknife than play tunes on Paddy's Day. Call me when it's all over Sam and we'll have some nice quiet tunes somewhere.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Dow, how wrong could you possibly be? I thought we'd seen all your most pointless rants, but then you come out with another clanger like that...
In all my time in the scene I am yet to find ONE aussie who buys into the whole bullsh*t Irish-spiritual-ancestry bolox. Aussies suffer from being to much the other way - ie not giving a toss about their cultural heritage. Yeah, sure everyone gets involved on paddy's day but it's out of a sence of NOT being irish that they do it - you know, lets all drink porter and sing danny boy - not because they're Irish but because EVERYONE (including my fiercly greek-australian ex-boss) does that sh*t on Paddy's day. It's completely de-contextualised.
This is in huge contrast to the the American-Irish people i met when i lived in Ireland. They felt a massive connection to being irish - even if their ancertors left in the mid 1800s or whatever. and again, the reason this struck me is because you just DO NOT see that kind of thing here.
theories of the reasoning behind this aussie disconnection are quite interesting, but totally not worth bringing up after your slightly unnerving post dowster. sad.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by SirNose
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Dow - I'll sell you breadknife at very good price....in fact I'll send one over free of charge. As long as I get it back clean, without any blood or connective tissue or bone fragments stuck in the serrations. But then how are you going to be able to clean it? Or even, how are you going to saw the fingers off your other hand?
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Sorry to break this to you, but fake-Irishness is just as bad over here as in the States, SirNose. I'm glad for you that you're blind to it. Stay that way!
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"It's completely de-contextualised"
Yeah, exactly, so why bother? You can get p*ssed any day of the year, so why do you have to pretend to be Irish to do it? Fake Irish Aussies have no idea what it is to be Irish. A lot of them have never even been there. They have no connection to the culture at all, but apparently just because they have a distant Irish relative that makes them Irish? *That's* sad...
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
This is terrible. For the second time in a week I find myself completely agreeing with Dow.
In that context I'd be as well calling myself Irish, since my Gaelic-speaking ancestors were from the North of Scotland whose ancestors in turn most likely came from Ireland some 1300 years previously.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I had Irish great grandparents, but I would never call myself Irish, even for one day of the year. How could I? It would be insulting. I'd like to direct SirNose's attention to this wikipedia entry http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_Paddy. The quote by Alex Massie captures precisely what I'm on about.
OK SirNose, put it this way: turn the whole thing around and imagine that there's a "let's all be Aboriginal" day in Australia, where everyone in Australia (Greeks included) paints themselves black and throws boomerangs and plays didgeridoos in the street. Then they proceed to emphasize every single negative stereotype imaginable, for example by drinking beer out of pretend petrol cans. Wouldn't you be like: "jesus, hang on a minute, there's something not quite right about this".
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
And then if someone who's actually aboriginal goes "hey, what the hell do you know about my culture" you reply, "oh, it's ok, it's like completely de-contextualised", or "it's just an excuse to celebrate and have fun".
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
http://www.nationalreview.com/comment/massie200603170817.asp
Go ahead and call me a "joyless, misanthropic begrudger" too.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Well, only if you insist, Dow!
Sorry to be a complete dinosaur, but even not so many decades ago, St Patrick's day in Australia was about St Patrick, not guinness, itm, green hats, etc.
We even used to get a holiday off school (if you went to a catholic school). We didn't go to a St Patrick's day parade though, there wasn't one; I think some places had them (maybe Melbourne) but it was a sort of religious parade. St Patrick's day has become something else than what it apparently was, but that's fine for people to identify with the day in whatever way they want, if they want - and it's not why I don't generally go to the parade though. It just seems to be the day when you can't find a session happening, and if you do, you can't hear it! It's enough to drive you to drink.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I agree with you Dow - the plastic paddy thing / fake accent thing
has a little whiff of racism to it. In the USA where I grew up,
this stuff is soaked deeply into the pop culture like Santa Claus, Halloween and the Easter Bunny. Because 60 million plus Americans come from Irish roots and it's part of the dominant culture there and in Australia - people are blind to the racism. Disclaimer: my roots are German/Jewish.
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Hup
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
This is it, mhuppert. SirNose grew up in Australia so he doesn't see it. I come to this country as an immigrant and from where I'm standing it's pretty obvious. If anyone doesn't believe it, I dare them to go up to a random group of drunken Aussies on the day. Now, we all know drunks say revealing things, right? Ask them why they are celebrating when they're not even Irish and have nothing to do with Ireland or Irish culture. Before you know it, you'll be hit by a barrage of outraged, in-yer-face comments to the effect of "I'm as Irish as they come - my grandmother came from Limerick so eff you I'm more Irish than you are! I might not sound it but it's what you feel inside". What you *won't* get is someone saying "Ahhh mate I dunno, it's like completely de-contextualised, know what I mean?"
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Dow, there are more cross sections to Australian society than "random groups of drunken Aussies" or bogans as you have mentioned before. I guess if you are always approaching that demographic for feedback, you are going to get a fairly uniform response. Try asking a different demographic, is my suggestion.
There is a huge proportion of the Australian population that has Irish ancestry mainly from Irish famine times right through to the present day. Why do you suppose that these people would not be aware and proud of their heritage?
Many of the families of these people had a lot to do with building this country in very hard times, and came all around the world to do it...that's respectable.
No centrelink, no medicare, no nothing.
As well, a lot of awareness of Irish background survived in Australia through the catholic church and labour politics.
Something similar to british anglicanism in a different context imo.
Where you were born determines what "nationality" you are, in my understanding, or where you become accepted as a citizen through law. Awareness of the background of your ancestors is something else, as is awareness of what is unique about being Australian. It's all ok, let people explore what they want - it's a whole lot better than being a random drunk, I would have thought.
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Being proud of your heritage is one thing. Stealing someone else's identity and making a mockery of it is quite another.
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
And no, it's not just a bogan thing - it's a middle class thing too.
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
And by the way, DD, the fact that you assumed I was talking about "bogans" when I mentioned random drunken Aussies shows *your* prejudice, not mine. Are you suggesting that middle class Aussies don't drink? Puh-leeze!
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
No, but what do you mean by random drunks.
You know, I have heard it said by people in Sydney that people who sit around playing Irish music in pubs are a bit like derros - is that what you mean by random drunks?
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
OK then make that a random white middle class Aussie who is drinking coke because he/she has to do the driving after the celebrations. They'd say exactly the same thing. Try it for yourself on the day.
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Hey, Dow, when you're at the nash trying getting out more from the session bar and catch a concert...broadens the mind somewhat.
I hear they might have a workshop on the art of rhetorical argument - try that for yourself on the day.
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
i dont care about all that culture stuff i just want tunes
The National is close enough too. Will be interesting to see how we go on this float/truck thing in the parade where I will probably get my dose of plastic paddy participating in that.
# Posted on March 12th 2008 by SamW
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Float/truck thing? Excellent. This means we can all... you know. Throw stuff at yers.
;)
# Posted on March 17th 2008 by kookabat
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
hi Sam,
Isn't it great we've got a uniform now that we can wear to impress other lesser sessioners! Of course I'll be wearing mine at the Nash, along with the stylish guinness hat I got at the pub yesterday.
I am sorry to disappoint you a little, but I think you and I ended up with the girls-size t-shirt
Blokes are supposed to wear XL size.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by dogbox
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
In response to dows challenge re: asking aussie's if they think there irish...
And this is taken from a very small sample of aussie's at the paddy's gigs i was playing in melbourne yesterday - the responses:
Not irish, and not offended by me asking if they thought they were irish because they were out on paddy's day. every one i asked.
Maybe they didn't open up to me because we were both aussies and therefore couldn't see how shamefully in denial they were about being in denial about how irish they wern't. or something.
in*fact*, i had a rave to a mate of mine from Meath who had spent a fair few paddy's days both in australia and america and *he* (to the furious agreement of his mates) commented on how totally different the "plastic paddy" vibe was in the US compared to here, and that aussie's just tended to come out for the craic.
(interesting aside here, he also had a theory that the Irish pubs in Sydney were much more centred around irish expats {and therefore *may* attract more of the faux-paddy's} whereas Melbourne Irish pubs are full of aussies suits and such and are generally avoided by expats... could this affect my outlook? who knows, i'm only an aussie and therefore have forfitted any right to have an opinion on our national caricture.)
It's always so much fun being lectured by the English.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by SirNose
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
of course i meant "...national character"
What can i say, i'm as bad a speller as i am ignorant.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by SirNose
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
The times that I have been to a St Patrick's Day parade (and I have Irish heritage), I have found it very interesting to see, meet and speak with Irish people, and maybe imagined what my forebears might have been like, and how different or similar I am now as a result of other cultural influences over a long time.
I love the humor, it is unmistakeably in my family, I love the rhetoric, it is also a similarity I can see, I can see the care for other people, the commonality and supportiveness between people - more of which the world could do with right now.
I love the music, I am not sure why I do, but it strikes a chord in me like no other music does.
I come away from the parade understanding a little better who I am and why. That's a fairly productive day I would have thought.
SirNose, Melbourne is always full of suits. It's that kinda place.
I would add though - it's always so much fun being lectured by the English who find themselves living here, but are somehow reluctant to do so, and do everything they can not to be seen to be Australian - like bashing Australians. It must be a national pastime or something in that demographic.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Here's my experience of Sunday night - parade night, cut & paste from another thread: I called round the pub after work for a beer, and some drunken bogan Aussie woman came up to me, and because I have a soft, lilting accent, she assumed I was Irish, and went all starry eyed: "I love the Irish" she said, as though there weren't any bad Irish people in existence, and then she actually put on a fake Irish accent for me and said something unintelligible. She went to great lengths to explain to me that her heritage was Irish, and bored me to tears.
OK so that was only one woman, but I was only in the pub for an hour or so, and I didn't talk to any of the other drunken people as I'd gone there to talk to Phoe at the bar. On the other hand, it's not like I even had to *ask* her about her heritage. She couldn't wait to tell me. I get that every year, as soon as I open my mouth, and then I have to disappoint them by telling them I'm not Irish. Now if I actually made an effort to go round and ask people, I'd have come across zillions of people like her. Obviously we just experience Paddy's Day in very different ways, SirNose...
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"The times that I have been to a St Patrick's Day parade (and I have Irish heritage)"
Oh my god, *yawn*?? Yeah so have I got Irish heritage, but it doesn't make me in the least bit Irish, and I don't waste time imagining my forebears to be lone, fiddle-playing herdsmen playing to their livestock in misty green bogs. It's bull, Duijera. Your ancestors might well have been the most horrible criminals imaginable and hated by their community, but you wouldn't want to imagine that now, would you. C'mon now and be real, and sort your identity out. Just be yourself, man.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
I didn't say having Irish heritage makes me Irish, in case you missed that, Dow. It just means you have Irish heritage.
Dow, I have my identity well sorted - I'm Australian, and proud of it. I'm not so sure you are though, but don't worry if that's the case, it's not an uncommon phenomenon to go through as a migrant, maybe into the second generation.
I am very comfortable with the reasons why my forebears came here, Dow, for whatever reason they did. Some of the Irish ones came here rather than suffer discrimination in Ireland and then die of starvation others came here with the means to set up major cattle raising enterprises. When they came here they suffered the same discrimination and bashing at the hands of the English, but hey they survived and prospered. My English, French and Scotish forebears came here for other reasons, and all of them helped to build this country. So, I guess you're a bit of a latecomer, Dow, but as you've noticed in this country people will still try to make you welcome despite your efforts to the contrary. Good luck with the English tourists, mate. Aren't they wonderful.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Doesn't take much to tease out those prejudices and stereotypes from you does it?
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"I'm Australian, and proud of it. I'm not so sure you are though, but don't worry if that's the case, it's not an uncommon phenomenon to go through as a migrant, maybe into the second generation."
I don't know what you mean by this. Of course I'm not Australian. What's your point?
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
what do you mean your not australian? how long have you been here for again?
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by SirNose
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"Doesn't take much to tease out those prejudices and stereotypes from you does it?"
LOL, Dow. You should talk! You would have to be worst example on this board as far as I can see.
What's your point in plastering this board with your bitter invective?
Have fun with the English tourists then, you'd be well qualified to deal with them, I'd say.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
SirNose, I suggest just settling for asking Dow if he would be proud to be an Australian - not imputing that proud nomenclature to him until he feels he deserves it.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
yeah, the sad thing is the only thing un-australian about dow is how he chooses to label himself. He lives in australia, has done for a very long time, contributes to the australian community, has pretty much 'settled' here, but doesn't claim australia as his 'home'.
Being english and being australian are not mutually exclusive, I was born in england am very proud of both my nationalities (not to mention the slightly handy EU passort side of my englishness...)
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by SirNose
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Sorry, don't see how I'm bashing Australians. Most of my mates are Aussie so why would I bash Aussies? Bash Plastic Paddies of all nationalities yes, Aussies for the sake of being Aussie, no.
And the whole thing of "being proud to be Australian/English/American" is banal and ultimately meaningless.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
if you choose to make it meaningless it is. Sense of place is pretty damn important to me... It's why i couldn't stay in ireland for more than a year, because i felt a connection to my aussie-ness and i missed what i conceived of as 'home'
'banal' and 'meaningless' are pretty unhelpful words if you were actually trying to discuss this on some level.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by SirNose
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
"the sad thing is the only thing un-australian about dow is how he chooses to label himself. He lives in australia, has done for a very long time, contributes to the australian community, has pretty much 'settled' here, but doesn't claim australia as his 'home'."
Why is that a sad thing? You want me to assimilate and become Aussie? Why? Why can't you just let immigrants be themselves instead of putting them all into this imagined big melting pot? Australia's where I live. I live here because the sun shines all the time. Why should that mean I have to label myself as Australian?
I only ask because it's important for the discussion. It has to do with how you view identity and culture itself. And it looks as though it explains the whole Plastic Paddy thing quite satisfyingly, for me anyway...
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
SirNose, feeling a connection to somewhere or something, and feeling a sense of home are very different things to a sense of "pride" in my book.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Dow
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Dow, no one is asking you to assimilate, that's up to you. Most people don't give a rats these days. If you want to call yourself English while spending your life in Australia, that's up to you, it's just kind of sad is all. But you are not the only one.
SirNose, Dow is really here (on these boards and in Australia) to learn, mostly about himself. He's learning. Unfortunately for him, he appears to like to learn the hard way. How frightfully English, I dare say.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Duijera Dubh
Re: Sydney, St. Patrick's Day Parade Day (16th March) in the city - any sessions?
Maybe, just, people in the country know how to have a good time. I went to a St Patrick's night last night. No parade
, no traditional music 
, but people gathering together, some Irish, some not, to listen to music and have a good time. It was a beautiful warm night. Balmy outside in the pedestrian mall. Open to all. People stood around or sat around tables, some drank and some ate pizzas. Some just wandered past. A sound guy did a mighty job mixing the performers. Some of the music was simply lovely. There is a lot of musical talent around here. There was some home-grown stuff, some first timers, some people got up spontaneously to dance, a bit of jazz thrown in, some comedy and some people proudly Irish. I didn't see any green beer or any obnoxious behaviour of any kind. It doesn't have to be over the top to be enjoyable. In fact laid back is lovely. I've been so mellowed by the experience that this afternoon I bought my first Aboriginal painting. I dunno, I'm not Aboriginal either, but its easy to appreciate when people want to openly share.
# Posted on March 18th 2008 by Clear Drops