It seems Scotland is really fast over taking Ireland in the future of Celtic music. There is huge variety and the tone of the fiddle players in Scottish music are absolutely stunning eg Charlie McKerron, Aly Bain, Duncan Chisholm, Gordon Gunn, Kevin Henderson, Lauren Macoll etc
I am sorry to say Irish music at present apart from a few select and special artists just isnt cutting the mustard.
It all sounds the same, and their is no future development of the music its still the same , for a music to live and grow there must be change subtle perhaps and new influences, Scotland is providing this,
In modern Celtic music Capercaillie lets face it rule the earth. The musicianship, vocals and production sets the standard for the style of music, you cant disagree that they are simply perfection in Celtic crossover music and can also play trad stuff incredibly well.
When some Irish groups with a few exceptions try to play modern Celtic music it sounds cheesy and just really bad. Horrid keyboard sounds and awful 80's casio programming, there is a recent album with these 2 ingredients that i will not name as dont wish to slag people off but
I like the Scottish people generally but I really am not into Scottish trad I'm afraid.
I've been to Celtic Connections twice and I have to say I didn't think much of most of the Scottish groups I saw, there was one great show a couple of years ago with Aly Bain joined by a bunch of musicians from around the world which was great, apart from that I haven't been much impressed by many Scottish trad bands.
I agree to some extent that there aren't many good Irish trad bands either, to me bands aren't where its at in trad though. Everyone is still trying to catch up with the Bothy Band and no one has come close.
Forget about the bands, to hear some really great younger Irish musicians check out Caoimhín Ó'Raghallaigh, Breda Keville, Conor McEvoy, Liam O'Connor, Edel Fox, Harry Bradley and the current TG4 Young Musician of the Year Martin Tourish.
If you think there's no future for Irish music after listening to that lot then you clearly don't know what you're on about!
Also the best band from the UK I've heard in recent times aren't Scottish, they are English (shock! horror!)
Bellowhead are very original, they won't be to everyone's taste but I've never seen a band like them and they're very good at what they do. They make English Trad music fun - and that's some achievement!
I do have to say I like a lot of the more modern style of "celtic" music such as Capercaillie or Solas, but I also have to agree with a lot of what the others have written here, especially frisbee's first post. When I listen to the groups and bands there is only a few that stand out as really good to me, but then again, the band is not the true heart of Irish Taditional Music, that still belongs to the single or small and informal group of solo musicians. When I take my eyes of those in the spotlight and look into the next gen of tradition musicians who are still playing in the sidelines I cannot help but see a bright future for ITM! One place I frequent quite often is the comhaltas web page. They post some great videos on a regular basis, and although they're not all the best musicians there are definately some shining examples such as Edel Fox and Ernestine Healy,(did I mentionl I play concertina!). By the way sorry to disagree but for me Ireland still rules.
Cheers!
There are so many styles within each; some grab you, some don't. Live and let live, mates.
I'm primarily into Highlands & Islands and Shetland music, but I'm the first to admit that the interesting rhythms and harmonies that I like are guaranteed to be offputting to some, just because they are unique and not what one quite expects to hear! For example, I thought Catriona MacDonald's Over the Moon that came out recently was wonderful, very creative and original, and the word that first came to mind was daring -- all meaning that some just aren't going to like it. I wouldn't be surprised at all at a negative review or two.
I was just telling my wife this morning: Hey if I could just be more like begley+cooney forever I'd unlock the hidden Mysteries of ...ahem "Celtic musak"
"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves." - Breandán Ó Beacháin
when I am looking for great ITM there are sooo many older recordings to discover that I do not look for new and rising stars, except for Oisin MacDiarmada or the Kane sisters..or Burke or Hayes....
when I look for Scottish music (trad), there are not that many old recordings to look for..a couple compilations here and there...so I am forced to look at the newer talent that is on the scene, and I am glad for it...
I'm afraid I love it all. Don't think I could choose sides. I absolutely love Fiddler's Bid and the work that Chris Stout and Catriona McKay have done. (The Swan LK243 is one of my favorite tunes period.) On the same hand, I love Solas, Lunasa, Grada, Altan, etc. Then there's the hybrid band "The Boys of the Lough" with many great artists from all over the place, including Kevin Henderson who was already mentioned.
When I went to Scotland 3 years ago, it appeared the TMSA was working hard to bring back Scottish trad. Have they been that successful?
Half and half I think.
Half wind-up: trying to provoke a reaction by making an exaggerated point.
Half not wind-up: B+c f obviously believes this thing as he perceives the situation as thus.
But to say Scottish music is in better shape than Irish music based on your opinion after listening to a handful of bands from either country is really just scratching the surface of what this music represents, or is really represented by. It doesn't take into account the music "on the ground" in the form of the numerous sessions up and down either country (and diasporae), and promotional organisations, such as CCE, and their activities.
I'm Scottish, but have been to Ireland on numerous occasions, and in Scotland there isn't an equivalent to CCE (thriving as much anyway) for Scottish music -- not to my knowledge, although things may have changed recently. In fact there are CCE branches in Scotland!
And another thing, the usual bee in my bonnet, calling the music "Celtic Music" is a bit of a giveaway -and on that evidence, I agree with frisbee, I don't think B+c f really knows what s/he is talking about.
Going on what I've heard of Capercaillie's music on albums, they are certainly very good musicians and Karen's a very good singer, but the production and maybe approach overall makes the music sound as if it's been pasteurised and fairly thoroughly wrapped in clingfilm. And I find some of the backing gimmicky at times.
Interesting that some think this thread is a wind up. Wind uppish I would say, versus is the most inappropriate of words. Frisbee - who did you see at Celtic Connections? In general I have found most people on this board to be incredibly naive about the situation in Scottish trad, there is a amazing variety at the moment
that ranges from old style accordian music to exiting new trad sounds, fusion styles and bands that would be hard to tell whether they are Scottish or Irish.
In my opinion if someone who likes ITM says they are not into Scottish trad then they simply have heard a tiny proportion of what is going on. I love ITM but in my opinion Scottish trad seems more vibrant at the moment. There doesn't seem to be the same pure drop hang ups here. Trad players are very experimental here and don't get slated for it. Just about all the players from the Celtic" music bands often scorned at play in trad duo's ,trios, sessions, collaborations etc.
The most commercial music is what is usually seen but scratch below that and you can find a different world. Hopefully Ireland is still in the same situation.
Like a few others, I don't know why we are having this conversation.
If Irish music has one thing in its favour, it is because it usually tends to be a bit "closer to the tradition" and generally the players tend to eschew over innovative arrangements and gimmicks.
I feel that many young Scottish musicians are more interested in imitating their musical heroes or, at least, see them as the starting point rather than Scottish music itself.
Having said that, those mentioned in the first post do have a love for and grounding in traditional music whether or not they wish to remain strictly traditional or not. The same can't be said for all, unfortunately.
However, to sum up, there's good and bad in both Irish and Scots music and much variety. The same even applies to what some of you describe as "Celtic music"(Don't use that myself) or any other form of experimental, innovative, hybrid etc ..anything in fact which isn't strictly traditional. Much of it can be very enjoyable but it's not always strictly necessary and it's debatable whether or not it can be regarded as "the future of the music". More likely, it's a passing fad in many cases.
beneath all the slagging there is an interesting point somewhere.
You don't seem to get so many self-appointed "keepers of the flame" in Scottish music. Perhaps because it's not been so widely-known as Irish recently so has developed more "under the radar" ...?
bogman, you know the Scottish muso's I saw at Celtic Connections were so unmemorable that I can't remember any of their names! I saw a lot of them in the Festival Club and most of them were trying desperately to be 'cool' or 'innovative' whereas the truth is they mostly sounded bland and it was obvious that in a few years time their arrangements will sound horribly dated. Hayes and Cahill are a perfect example of how to be innovative but stay firmly within the tradition, I haven't seen any Scottish musicians with that kind of approach, but then again I'll admit I don't know a huge amount about Scottish trad, I'm just going by what I've seen and heard, I find Donegal music and Cape Breton music much more interesting, even though most of the tunes come from Scotland!
It is a bit of a daft thread, but I am guilty of that myself here so am in no position to comment (just look up "ITM is STM for beginners" and you will see what I mean!)
To suggest that one tradition is better than another in such generalistic and sweeping terms is ridiculous and there is always much more to the story than that. However I do agree with bogman about the experimental nature of Scottish music just now. It is very vibrant and full of lots of new talent and new ideas and that is not looked down upon. Essentially Irish music had a big wave of innovation and development around the time of the Bothy Band and Planxty and the like and has not really equalled that since then in terms of development (whether that is good or bad I don't know). Scottish music moved on at the same time with bands like Ossian and na-h Oganaich being on the scene along with the Tannies and the Batties and so forth. Capercaillie also continued to lead that development through the 80s and 90s (although I am less fond of their newer stuff in comparison to the Delirium and Sidewaulk days - but that is just personal taste). The point is that Scottish music kept on developing whilst Irish music slowed down. Now Scottish music is reaching a new zenith in popularity and there are swathes of amazingly talented young folk on the scene (some of which have already been mentioned) and the Irish music scene does not seem to be looking for the same thing just now. Sure there are amazing players in the Irish scene just now like Edel and so forth but they are observing that very traditional route. When folk like McGoldrick and co do "push the envelope" as such then they come under great criticism from the trad heads (despite their huge popularity).
This website is a prime example. Even in this thread folk are finding time to debate whether it is ITM or Irish Traditional Music or Celtic music or blah blah blah. Who cares really? What is in a name as some famous playwrite once said. In Scotland that debate does not even seem to exist. It is all folk music. Now lets get on with it!
As has already been said many of these Scottish musicians who play in bands also play in duos and trios and sessions, etc but what you will hear is the finished, polished studio produced albums. You need to come here to see the scene as it is in each area. Why there is this problem with bands with some folk I dont understand. The whole point for some of the folk back in the 60s and 70s here seemed to be to get together, play some music, form a band and see the world - or at least Europe.
Anyway, I have blabbered on for too long now and this is not even my account so bye!
Maybe (much of) Europe's full up - by which I mean, festivals and venues that were new and open for expansion in the 70s are now staid and heavily booked up with ageing, established acts.
Forty-odd years ago Scottish music was much more above the radar than Irish music, outside of Irish communities, in the UK and I imagine globally. The Highland bagpipes were universally familiar in the UK through the Edinburgh Tattoo and other events, the uilleann pipes hardly at all. Hogmanay programmes were on English TV (I miss them!), and folk dancing was very much done to Jimmy Shand records. Scottish tragic / political / Jacobite songs, etc., about long-ago events, could be handled by English people; Irish rebel songs, relevant to more recent or ongoing conflicts,on the whole couldn't.
I get the impression a lot of folk revivalists and musicians in Scotland wanted to get out from under all this, in and around the Sixties folk revival - even if they might have had a certain soft spot for it, and appeared on these same shows later in life. And they went in all manner of directions. I'm in no place to say that the music of Scotland is more diverse or innovative than that of Ireland, but it's certainly diverse, and I think this owes a lot to the eclecticism of the 60s.
In his first sentence, this @@@@@ quite rightly,praises Scottish solo fiddle players. He then goes on to slag off Irish bands.
Fair enough, but Ireland has a host of equally brilliant solo musicians who are certainly cutting the mustard for me. If you don't like bands, fair enough - don't listen to them.
The top Irish and Scottish solo musicians are all very good at what they do!!!
Hallelujah!!! Let's celebrate! We are ~ and feeling it too... I whizzed up a load of frozen strawberries with lime, sugar and the Brazilian take on rum ~ very nice!
Well Ireland trounced Scotland's Rugby team recently, but after today's performances I'd say Scotland could win, if they met again, soon!
As for music ....... when will some folks here wise up to the fact that music should not be treated as a sport. It's a feckin' art form for jayzus sake & competitions between artists of any sort are a feckin' nonsense!
If you are really worried about who is better than who ~ your just missing the point of it all .... very sad.
Let's face it, if music was a sport, do you not think the Romans would have had Lyre players battle it out to the death, in the Colosseum?
Of course Rome's most notorious lyre player, Nero, was above sport. Or rather, he was pretty unsporting: he's said to have got his minions to start the Great Fire of Rome (or one of them), and sound-tracked it by playing and singing about the Sack of Troy on his palace roof overlooking the scene. People who use a disaster or tragedy to grandstand can be bad enough, but not so many musos have the worldly power to start the thing in the first place.
In competitions, he always got first prize. The adjudicators thought artistic perjury preferable to being fed to lions. He compelled high society to attend interminable performances by himself. The only escape was by shamming death and being carried out. Some folk clubs have given me an inkling of the feeling.
"It's a feckin' art form for jayzus sake & competitions between artists of any sort are a feckin' nonsense!"
Dick, you're back!!!
I'm worried about nicholas, repeating all that Christian tripe about Nero, when it was the Christians who started the fires in the first place... There's also information that they never were fed to lions either, more propaganda and the rewriting of history we all accept as true without question... Tsk, tsk Nicky, the North isn't that detached from the rest of the world is it?
ceol - It's clear Nero pinned it on the Christians and was pretty nasty to them. Tacitus, who disliked both, says so - though he wouldn't have known much about the Christians. To him, as a patrician Roman, the Eastern world was revolting by definition: if the Christians came from there, they more or less had to be Kali-worshippers, cultists or terrorists, in today's terms.
The North is not that detached from the rest of the world. It does, though, have a track record of learning its tricks a bit late, hanging onto them rather long, and fostering inadvisable lost causes. But nuggets of value and truth are to be found amid the archaic lumber of yesteryear's fashions and received wisdoms. And hanging on to the fact that Nero persecuted Christians and very likely fed them to lions may give us moral fibre when the rest of you have been persuaded that the Christians actually succumbed to allergies contracted when Nero invited them to a garden party at the palace and let them play with his Persian cats.
I don't know if Begley is trying to say that there fewer really good Irish musicians coming out in general or just from Ireland itself. Don't forget the US. There's quite a few good ones over here becoming quite learned of Irish tad music.
Think ye are all just jealous of Scottish music and more modern sounding Irish music as ye cant play it. and think some of ye soend way too long on the session website when ya should be practising along to bands like Capercaillie, Moving hearts etc and try to catch up
Jarlath Henderson with Eamonn Coyne. Irish but living and playing in Scotland. They are obviously fantastic players and Scotland and Ireland are both full of players like this. IMO.
"Think ye are all just jealous of Scottish music and more modern sounding Irish music as ye cant play it.."
You mean, "have no desire to play it." Personally, I like Irish music just the way it is thank you very much. Have fun with your "modern sounding" music... I hope you can play it. Have fun trying anyway.
Who the hell would want to practice along with Capercaillie, or Moving Hearts for that matter! Not that there's anything wrong with their music, but I can't imagine why you would want to play along with anything so produced and arranged.
Anyway, what's the big deal with all this Scotland v Ireland stuff?That's some axe you're grinding there buddy!!
Lets face it, there's good Irish music and good Scottish music and there's music from both countries that isn't so good....what's new!!
My favourite "scottish" fiddler is Gerry O'Connor from
County Louth. It's all on a continuum anyway - no brick
wall around what's "irish", "french canadian", "new england" etc
Ireland versus Scotland?
Ireland versus Scotland?
It seems Scotland is really fast over taking Ireland in the future of Celtic music. There is huge variety and the tone of the fiddle players in Scottish music are absolutely stunning eg Charlie McKerron, Aly Bain, Duncan Chisholm, Gordon Gunn, Kevin Henderson, Lauren Macoll etc
I am sorry to say Irish music at present apart from a few select and special artists just isnt cutting the mustard.
It all sounds the same, and their is no future development of the music its still the same , for a music to live and grow there must be change subtle perhaps and new influences, Scotland is providing this,
In modern Celtic music Capercaillie lets face it rule the earth. The musicianship, vocals and production sets the standard for the style of music, you cant disagree that they are simply perfection in Celtic crossover music and can also play trad stuff incredibly well.
When some Irish groups with a few exceptions try to play modern Celtic music it sounds cheesy and just really bad. Horrid keyboard sounds and awful 80's casio programming, there is a recent album with these 2 ingredients that i will not name as dont wish to slag people off but
anyways just a few late night thoughts
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Scottish trad
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
INCOMING!!!!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
I like the Scottish people generally but I really am not into Scottish trad I'm afraid.
I've been to Celtic Connections twice and I have to say I didn't think much of most of the Scottish groups I saw, there was one great show a couple of years ago with Aly Bain joined by a bunch of musicians from around the world which was great, apart from that I haven't been much impressed by many Scottish trad bands.
I agree to some extent that there aren't many good Irish trad bands either, to me bands aren't where its at in trad though. Everyone is still trying to catch up with the Bothy Band and no one has come close.
Forget about the bands, to hear some really great younger Irish musicians check out Caoimhín Ó'Raghallaigh, Breda Keville, Conor McEvoy, Liam O'Connor, Edel Fox, Harry Bradley and the current TG4 Young Musician of the Year Martin Tourish.
If you think there's no future for Irish music after listening to that lot then you clearly don't know what you're on about!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by !@£$%^&*()
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Also the best band from the UK I've heard in recent times aren't Scottish, they are English (shock! horror!)
Bellowhead are very original, they won't be to everyone's taste but I've never seen a band like them and they're very good at what they do. They make English Trad music fun - and that's some achievement!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by !@£$%^&*()
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Hate to point out the bleedin' obvious but traditional music is supposed to be traditional, so it will sound "all the same" to the uninitiated.
Perhaps you would be better playing/listening to IMM, Irish Modern Music.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Five Hand Reel were the business, and Battlefield Band.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by bodhran bliss
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
I do have to say I like a lot of the more modern style of "celtic" music such as Capercaillie or Solas, but I also have to agree with a lot of what the others have written here, especially frisbee's first post. When I listen to the groups and bands there is only a few that stand out as really good to me, but then again, the band is not the true heart of Irish Taditional Music, that still belongs to the single or small and informal group of solo musicians. When I take my eyes of those in the spotlight and look into the next gen of tradition musicians who are still playing in the sidelines I cannot help but see a bright future for ITM! One place I frequent quite often is the comhaltas web page. They post some great videos on a regular basis, and although they're not all the best musicians there are definately some shining examples such as Edel Fox and Ernestine Healy,(did I mentionl I play concertina!). By the way sorry to disagree but for me Ireland still rules.
Cheers!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Tyler
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Wind up continuity patrol:
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16954
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Isn't Scottish music just a weirder version of Irish music?
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
I don't know why it has to be "versus."
There are so many styles within each; some grab you, some don't. Live and let live, mates.
I'm primarily into Highlands & Islands and Shetland music, but I'm the first to admit that the interesting rhythms and harmonies that I like are guaranteed to be offputting to some, just because they are unique and not what one quite expects to hear! For example, I thought Catriona MacDonald's Over the Moon that came out recently was wonderful, very creative and original, and the word that first came to mind was daring -- all meaning that some just aren't going to like it. I wouldn't be surprised at all at a negative review or two.
Really, there is room for all.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by cathrynb
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
You lost me at "cutting the mustard"
and the sound of cheese.
I was just telling my wife this morning: Hey if I could just be more like begley+cooney forever I'd unlock the hidden Mysteries of ...ahem "Celtic musak"
Sorry to here you're so disappointed....
(not)
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Sir Dungsmere
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
"Critics are like eunuchs in a harem; they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves." - Breandán Ó Beacháin
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by stephenseifert
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
a couple other great Scottish fiddlers..
Jenna Reid
Colyn Fischer
Melinda Crawford
Anna Wendy Stevenson
yes the Scottish trad scene is alive and kicking!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
and, no I don't think it should be "versus"..
when I am looking for great ITM there are sooo many older recordings to discover that I do not look for new and rising stars, except for Oisin MacDiarmada or the Kane sisters..or Burke or Hayes....
when I look for Scottish music (trad), there are not that many old recordings to look for..a couple compilations here and there...so I am forced to look at the newer talent that is on the scene, and I am glad for it...
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
but there are PLENTY of Scottish song recordings...and pipe bands, too
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
I'm afraid I love it all. Don't think I could choose sides. I absolutely love Fiddler's Bid and the work that Chris Stout and Catriona McKay have done. (The Swan LK243 is one of my favorite tunes period.) On the same hand, I love Solas, Lunasa, Grada, Altan, etc. Then there's the hybrid band "The Boys of the Lough" with many great artists from all over the place, including Kevin Henderson who was already mentioned.
When I went to Scotland 3 years ago, it appeared the TMSA was working hard to bring back Scottish trad. Have they been that successful?
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by nofrets
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Is this my old friend Tradpiper? Just wondering...
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Obvious wind up, suckers.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by m_gavin
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Half and half I think.
Half wind-up: trying to provoke a reaction by making an exaggerated point.
Half not wind-up: B+c f obviously believes this thing as he perceives the situation as thus.
But to say Scottish music is in better shape than Irish music based on your opinion after listening to a handful of bands from either country is really just scratching the surface of what this music represents, or is really represented by. It doesn't take into account the music "on the ground" in the form of the numerous sessions up and down either country (and diasporae), and promotional organisations, such as CCE, and their activities.
I'm Scottish, but have been to Ireland on numerous occasions, and in Scotland there isn't an equivalent to CCE (thriving as much anyway) for Scottish music -- not to my knowledge, although things may have changed recently. In fact there are CCE branches in Scotland!
And another thing, the usual bee in my bonnet, calling the music "Celtic Music" is a bit of a giveaway -and on that evidence, I agree with frisbee, I don't think B+c f really knows what s/he is talking about.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Going on what I've heard of Capercaillie's music on albums, they are certainly very good musicians and Karen's a very good singer, but the production and maybe approach overall makes the music sound as if it's been pasteurised and fairly thoroughly wrapped in clingfilm. And I find some of the backing gimmicky at times.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Interesting that some think this thread is a wind up. Wind uppish I would say, versus is the most inappropriate of words. Frisbee - who did you see at Celtic Connections? In general I have found most people on this board to be incredibly naive about the situation in Scottish trad, there is a amazing variety at the moment
that ranges from old style accordian music to exiting new trad sounds, fusion styles and bands that would be hard to tell whether they are Scottish or Irish.
In my opinion if someone who likes ITM says they are not into Scottish trad then they simply have heard a tiny proportion of what is going on. I love ITM but in my opinion Scottish trad seems more vibrant at the moment. There doesn't seem to be the same pure drop hang ups here. Trad players are very experimental here and don't get slated for it. Just about all the players from the Celtic" music bands often scorned at play in trad duo's ,trios, sessions, collaborations etc.
The most commercial music is what is usually seen but scratch below that and you can find a different world. Hopefully Ireland is still in the same situation.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by bogman
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
FFS - pretty stupid thread this B+Cforever.
It's all in the individuals perception whether one tradition is better than another. Personally, I like both, and other traditions.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Ron P
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Like a few others, I don't know why we are having this conversation.
If Irish music has one thing in its favour, it is because it usually tends to be a bit "closer to the tradition" and generally the players tend to eschew over innovative arrangements and gimmicks.
I feel that many young Scottish musicians are more interested in imitating their musical heroes or, at least, see them as the starting point rather than Scottish music itself.
Having said that, those mentioned in the first post do have a love for and grounding in traditional music whether or not they wish to remain strictly traditional or not. The same can't be said for all, unfortunately.
However, to sum up, there's good and bad in both Irish and Scots music and much variety. The same even applies to what some of you describe as "Celtic music"(Don't use that myself) or any other form of experimental, innovative, hybrid etc ..anything in fact which isn't strictly traditional. Much of it can be very enjoyable but it's not always strictly necessary and it's debatable whether or not it can be regarded as "the future of the music". More likely, it's a passing fad in many cases.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Personally, I don't care, 'cos I never listen to music anyway. Bloody racket.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Aye, it's more fun just "reading the dots"..
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Hmmm ... hoist with a Jean-Luc Picard, if I'm not much mistaken ...
I should point out that I do, of course, listen to my fellow sessionistas ... when I can be bothered to actually stay long enough, that is ...
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
With Talent like this I'am not at all worried.
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_245_2_ernestine_healy_on_concertina_with_a_selection_of_reels/
Go See =
http://comhaltas.ie/music/detail/comhaltaslive_239_2_ernestine_healy_concertina_and_fionnuala_rooney_harp/
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
beneath all the slagging there is an interesting point somewhere.
You don't seem to get so many self-appointed "keepers of the flame" in Scottish music. Perhaps because it's not been so widely-known as Irish recently so has developed more "under the radar" ...?
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Bren
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
bogman, you know the Scottish muso's I saw at Celtic Connections were so unmemorable that I can't remember any of their names! I saw a lot of them in the Festival Club and most of them were trying desperately to be 'cool' or 'innovative' whereas the truth is they mostly sounded bland and it was obvious that in a few years time their arrangements will sound horribly dated. Hayes and Cahill are a perfect example of how to be innovative but stay firmly within the tradition, I haven't seen any Scottish musicians with that kind of approach, but then again I'll admit I don't know a huge amount about Scottish trad, I'm just going by what I've seen and heard, I find Donegal music and Cape Breton music much more interesting, even though most of the tunes come from Scotland!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by !@£$%^&*()
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
This is "No Cause For Alarm" posting:
It is a bit of a daft thread, but I am guilty of that myself here so am in no position to comment (just look up "ITM is STM for beginners" and you will see what I mean!)
To suggest that one tradition is better than another in such generalistic and sweeping terms is ridiculous and there is always much more to the story than that. However I do agree with bogman about the experimental nature of Scottish music just now. It is very vibrant and full of lots of new talent and new ideas and that is not looked down upon. Essentially Irish music had a big wave of innovation and development around the time of the Bothy Band and Planxty and the like and has not really equalled that since then in terms of development (whether that is good or bad I don't know). Scottish music moved on at the same time with bands like Ossian and na-h Oganaich being on the scene along with the Tannies and the Batties and so forth. Capercaillie also continued to lead that development through the 80s and 90s (although I am less fond of their newer stuff in comparison to the Delirium and Sidewaulk days - but that is just personal taste). The point is that Scottish music kept on developing whilst Irish music slowed down. Now Scottish music is reaching a new zenith in popularity and there are swathes of amazingly talented young folk on the scene (some of which have already been mentioned) and the Irish music scene does not seem to be looking for the same thing just now. Sure there are amazing players in the Irish scene just now like Edel and so forth but they are observing that very traditional route. When folk like McGoldrick and co do "push the envelope" as such then they come under great criticism from the trad heads (despite their huge popularity).
This website is a prime example. Even in this thread folk are finding time to debate whether it is ITM or Irish Traditional Music or Celtic music or blah blah blah. Who cares really? What is in a name as some famous playwrite once said. In Scotland that debate does not even seem to exist. It is all folk music. Now lets get on with it!
As has already been said many of these Scottish musicians who play in bands also play in duos and trios and sessions, etc but what you will hear is the finished, polished studio produced albums. You need to come here to see the scene as it is in each area. Why there is this problem with bands with some folk I dont understand. The whole point for some of the folk back in the 60s and 70s here seemed to be to get together, play some music, form a band and see the world - or at least Europe.
Anyway, I have blabbered on for too long now and this is not even my account so bye!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Some songs have too many "versus".
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by drone
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
As do some threads.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by drone
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Maybe (much of) Europe's full up - by which I mean, festivals and venues that were new and open for expansion in the 70s are now staid and heavily booked up with ageing, established acts.
Forty-odd years ago Scottish music was much more above the radar than Irish music, outside of Irish communities, in the UK and I imagine globally. The Highland bagpipes were universally familiar in the UK through the Edinburgh Tattoo and other events, the uilleann pipes hardly at all. Hogmanay programmes were on English TV (I miss them!), and folk dancing was very much done to Jimmy Shand records. Scottish tragic / political / Jacobite songs, etc., about long-ago events, could be handled by English people; Irish rebel songs, relevant to more recent or ongoing conflicts,on the whole couldn't.
I get the impression a lot of folk revivalists and musicians in Scotland wanted to get out from under all this, in and around the Sixties folk revival - even if they might have had a certain soft spot for it, and appeared on these same shows later in life. And they went in all manner of directions. I'm in no place to say that the music of Scotland is more diverse or innovative than that of Ireland, but it's certainly diverse, and I think this owes a lot to the eclecticism of the 60s.
Shoot me down if I'm bullsh*tting.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
In his first sentence, this @@@@@ quite rightly,praises Scottish solo fiddle players. He then goes on to slag off Irish bands.
Fair enough, but Ireland has a host of equally brilliant solo musicians who are certainly cutting the mustard for me. If you don't like bands, fair enough - don't listen to them.
The top Irish and Scottish solo musicians are all very good at what they do!!!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Meanwhile, a new club opens in Auld Reekie ...
http://www.myspace.com/clubgalore
I'll definitely have a look next time I'm down
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Bren
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
"Maverick late night live music club "
Is that Bret, Bart, or Brent (three brothers)?
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Wales vs Ireland ~ rugby: THE TRIPLE CROWN!!!
Wales won!!! ~ My wife and her family are chuffed! THE TRIPLE CROWN!!!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
We won too, of course
Scotland versus England.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Johannes J
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Hallelujah!!! Let's celebrate! We are ~ and feeling it too... I whizzed up a load of frozen strawberries with lime, sugar and the Brazilian take on rum ~ very nice!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Scotland beat England!!!
Congratulations Johnny J!
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Scotland beat England!!!
My wife's family celebrated that too...
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
We'll be back next year, just when your hangovers are peaking.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Well Ireland trounced Scotland's Rugby team recently, but after today's performances I'd say Scotland could win, if they met again, soon!
As for music ....... when will some folks here wise up to the fact that music should not be treated as a sport. It's a feckin' art form for jayzus sake & competitions between artists of any sort are a feckin' nonsense!
If you are really worried about who is better than who ~ your just missing the point of it all .... very sad.
Let's face it, if music was a sport, do you not think the Romans would have had Lyre players battle it out to the death, in the Colosseum?
Cheers
Dick
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Ptarmigan
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Not a sport?
Well, some people I know think they are very fast sprinters.......
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Of course Rome's most notorious lyre player, Nero, was above sport. Or rather, he was pretty unsporting: he's said to have got his minions to start the Great Fire of Rome (or one of them), and sound-tracked it by playing and singing about the Sack of Troy on his palace roof overlooking the scene. People who use a disaster or tragedy to grandstand can be bad enough, but not so many musos have the worldly power to start the thing in the first place.
In competitions, he always got first prize. The adjudicators thought artistic perjury preferable to being fed to lions. He compelled high society to attend interminable performances by himself. The only escape was by shamming death and being carried out. Some folk clubs have given me an inkling of the feeling.
ITM's well off without him.
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
"It's a feckin' art form for jayzus sake & competitions between artists of any sort are a feckin' nonsense!"
Dick, you're back!!!
I'm worried about nicholas, repeating all that Christian tripe about Nero, when it was the Christians who started the fires in the first place... There's also information that they never were fed to lions either, more propaganda and the rewriting of history we all accept as true without question... Tsk, tsk Nicky, the North isn't that detached from the rest of the world is it?
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
I didn't know Nero played jigs and reels...
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Where is Scotland anyway?
# Posted on March 8th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
ceol - It's clear Nero pinned it on the Christians and was pretty nasty to them. Tacitus, who disliked both, says so - though he wouldn't have known much about the Christians. To him, as a patrician Roman, the Eastern world was revolting by definition: if the Christians came from there, they more or less had to be Kali-worshippers, cultists or terrorists, in today's terms.
The North is not that detached from the rest of the world. It does, though, have a track record of learning its tricks a bit late, hanging onto them rather long, and fostering inadvisable lost causes. But nuggets of value and truth are to be found amid the archaic lumber of yesteryear's fashions and received wisdoms. And hanging on to the fact that Nero persecuted Christians and very likely fed them to lions may give us moral fibre when the rest of you have been persuaded that the Christians actually succumbed to allergies contracted when Nero invited them to a garden party at the palace and let them play with his Persian cats.
So there!
# Posted on March 9th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
" ~ if the Christians came from there, they more or less had to be Kali-worshippers, cultists or terrorists, in today's terms."
Huh? You mean they're not?
# Posted on March 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
# Posted on March 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Button, 'Scotland' is in Italy, just south of Naples, along the coast...
# Posted on March 9th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Oh... Thanks ceol... I think Italian music ROCKS!
# Posted on March 9th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
che cosa e?
# Posted on March 9th 2008 by Sir Dungsmere
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
And I thought it was an island off the coast of France. ;0)
# Posted on March 9th 2008 by Sir Dungsmere
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
I don't know if Begley is trying to say that there fewer really good Irish musicians coming out in general or just from Ireland itself. Don't forget the US. There's quite a few good ones over here becoming quite learned of Irish tad music.
# Posted on March 9th 2008 by JD-DHguitar
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Where's the US anyway?
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
The US is where the Roman Empire used to be.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Sir Dungsmere
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Think ye are all just jealous of Scottish music and more modern sounding Irish music as ye cant play it. and think some of ye soend way too long on the session website when ya should be practising along to bands like Capercaillie, Moving hearts etc and try to catch up
good luck with the learning
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Scottish trad
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EXeqbgjVIIw
Jarlath Henderson with Eamonn Coyne. Irish but living and playing in Scotland. They are obviously fantastic players and Scotland and Ireland are both full of players like this. IMO.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by bogman
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
"Think ye are all just jealous of Scottish music and more modern sounding Irish music as ye cant play it.."
You mean, "have no desire to play it." Personally, I like Irish music just the way it is thank you very much. Have fun with your "modern sounding" music... I hope you can play it. Have fun trying anyway.
# Posted on March 10th 2008 by Phantom Button
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
Who the hell would want to practice along with Capercaillie, or Moving Hearts for that matter! Not that there's anything wrong with their music, but I can't imagine why you would want to play along with anything so produced and arranged.
Anyway, what's the big deal with all this Scotland v Ireland stuff?That's some axe you're grinding there buddy!!
Lets face it, there's good Irish music and good Scottish music and there's music from both countries that isn't so good....what's new!!
# Posted on March 11th 2008 by tradfanatic
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
What?
# Posted on April 15th 2008 by edelfox
Re: Ireland versus Scotland?
My favourite "scottish" fiddler is Gerry O'Connor from
County Louth. It's all on a continuum anyway - no brick
wall around what's "irish", "french canadian", "new england" etc
# Posted on April 16th 2008 by mhuppert