This is a little bit of an extension of the post about "tradition" and the survival of some particular dance tunes "down through the ages..." while others fade away.
It's very hard to "nail down" what it is about a certain melody (or one cast into the form of a dance tune) -- which makes it highly desirable and seems to edge it into the 'flowing body' of the tradition -- while other bits of music just fall into a black hole and disappear.
Nevertheless, I was quite interested to discover that of all the sets of tunes ever recorded by Altan, when I was glancing around You-tube, the set I like best of anything they've ever recorded was one somebody put up on You-tube -- the Boxty Set (I think it's the Nine Scones of Boxty or something like that).
Liz Carroll writes a lot of tunes. Interestingly, the one of the ones that sticks in my ear the very most (of those I've heard that she's written) just 'happened' to be selected by Gavin, Shannon and McGoldrick to record on their "Tunes" album --- after that gorgeou Mcgoldrick composition -- The Jewel of the Ocean (hope I have the name correct). Anyway --- "Lizzy in the Lowloands" follows M. McGoldrick's beautiful beautiful tune, in its turn being delightful and so ear-pleasing.
And frankly, I have heard a lot of original tunes on recordings that I will never pull out to listen to again.....or I'll just pull out the recording to listen to one set of tunes on it.
WHAT --- makes a tune wonderful????
And I'll wager this --- it is NOT -- in most cases -- how complex the tune is. It's got to be something else.
Part of it might be in how well certain phrases in a melody "answer" other phrases -- the ones that "call" to them. Part of it might be a bit of mixing what is easily accessible to the ear/brain of a human -- with a little bit of a surprise.
Liz herself has said (I'm grossly paraphrasing here) that the tunes that last tend to stick together well--the parts (and phrases within the parts) "fit" each other and create a sense of organic whole.
So what makes some bits complementary and other bits disjointed? Motifs echo each other, pitch intervals and rhythmic patterns repeat, with enough of a twist to surprise, and the tune's contours create a sense of expectation or anticipation and then resolve.
On a finer level, good tunes often "set up" a poignant phrase or single note. Think of the C natural in the second half of Ashokan Farewell, or the high g in the second part of Greenfields of Rossbeigh. Our brains also interpret low and high pitches in close proximity as "emoitonal" (hear the octave jump between the first two notes of Somewhere Over a Rainbow--the high pitch tugs at our amygdala in a way that closer intervals don't).
I wonder if there is something in the idea of geometric patterns in the music that "works". Sometimes sheet music - on the rare occasion that I use it , can warn me that a tune might be a good one or not as the case might be. I am not quite sure what that visual pattern thing is, but wonder if anyone else has noticed that.
Most tunes that I find catchy have a repeated theme that seems to get developed and resolved in different ways in the A & B sections.
The other catchy thing in a tune is the hook-phrase. Where the rest of the tune is the padding but you are anticipating the hook coming back.
I dont think I am making much sense here.
You're making sense to me Donough - I often browse session tunes at work and pick ones that just catch my eye! Print them and play them later!! (I do some work in between!)
And often it's a couple of notes or a short phrase that can hook you on to a tune.
It's when you could never guess what note or phrase follows a previous note of phrase, but once you've heard it, you could not imagine any other note of phrase in its place.
When it wakes you up and makes you want to dance, or cry, or laugh, when your feet move on their own, or you find you're rocking to it... But that is also about who's carrying the tune at the time. I love it when dancers leave a floor and you know you've been let in, with the music, and they're humming or lilting it... The overly complex doesn't register so quickly in the heart... It might impress, but it doesn't persist without someone doing the persisting for it... It doesn't stand on its own...
Its not just the tune, its also the way its played. The phrasing ,the swing etc. also do you notice that the same tune played in a different key may sound very diiferent.
I think the question is "what makes a tune fetching?" We all know there's folks who can make any old tune sound grand and folks who make a dog's death of even the best tunes. But that's another discussion.
The concept of surprise, the never being able to guess what note or phrase follows a previous note of phrase, creates a problem for the tune writer.
The vast majority of tune writers follow stuff like "ideas of geometric patterns" and "repeated themes that seems to get developed and resolved in different ways". The thing is that stuff like "motifs echoing each other, pitch intervals and rhythmic patterns repeating" just aren't enough. If they were you could write a formula, but we all know that's not possible.
Every now and then some eedjit scans 1,000 pictures of beautiful women into a computer and writes a program to find the essence of beauty. It invariably comes out bland. And I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done it with diddley tunes too.
I have no idea how such marvels of human creativity as Liz Carroll and Ed Reavy etc (not to mention the myriads of the anon) go about it. I'm just glad they do and have done.
Those who seem gifted are also in other ways, those I've known, and those I've not ~ but all with respect from me, have started with a huge volume of understanding and a long history of playing this music, soaked in it. That other things have drenched Liz is obvious, and there have been some choice results because of it, 'new' and 'surprising' when filed under 'Irish reel', as one category of creation...
Ed Reavy is prime material for proof, he was definitely drenched in it, and along with his tunes, there's that lovely collection he also pulled together to share with us.
Both have also taken on dance, from one side or the other or both ways, giving and receiving... Better ears you couldn't want, as in both these examples they pretty much only had to hear a tune once to pull it out and take it for a walk themselves. It completely mysterious, they put the time and effort in. Tunes from lesser mortals, who've not gained that personal and deep understanding ~ well, it seems obvious to me in the efforts they work up, and sometimes work to death.
As well, again just keeping to these two, but let's bring in Sean Ryan and the Paddy O'Briens and Vincent Broderick ~ hell, I can't think of one 'composer' I like that doesn't fit this formulae ~ there wasn't a formulae, they didn't build their tunes in a lab, it wasn't so analytical or with great effort ~ they just came to them, out of the air, they just fell out, and mostly with little real struggle or effort ~ "Hey, that's nice, where the hell did that come from? I don't recognize it?" ~ or ~ through simple farting around, they have a catch some few notes they like and start tickling and suddenly it grows into a tune...and they like it and decide to make it their own...
I also have no doubt that they've let more pass by than they've caught and kept for posterity. Music is that way, a wonderful and magic obsession that takes you over more than you taking over it... At least once you've given it enough time that it is 'second nature', deep set...
Agreed, Michael. All I was saying is that "motifs echoing each other," etc., are necessary ingredients--you won't get a fetching tune without them.
Perhaps the most critical ingredient is that fine balance between predictability and surprise, informed by a well-honed sense of taste within the genre (which comes from listening to, knowing, and playing a large cross-section of the tunes).
There are similarities with written language. As a writer, you learn to vary your syntax, vocabulary, pace, and rhythm to keep it interesting, but always within some vague bounds of what makes prose "reader friendly." You look for just the right word, as a musical composer must look for just the right pitch. The piece begs for basic structure--a beginning, middle, and end.
But music doesn't "mean" anything--there's no point to make. It's an abstraction, simply emotionally evocative (if it's good music). So there's more freedom to combine all the bits that make a tune (pitches, phrases, beats, etc.,) in any ol' which way until you find something that clicks. Liam Kelly's tune The Hungry Rock is a good example of how far that freedom can take you without escapting the boundaries of the genre. It's hard to imagine coming up with such a tune if you're composing based on a formula or some alleged set of rules for what makes a tune fetching. Yet there it is.
ceolachan I like the analogy of hand tools.
Sometimes the old ways prove better than the latest technology. I have been working at a house with a nervous dog. The 'noise' of power tools is more than he can handle.
The solution is do everything by hand.
Requires more skill & you have to set each nail.
The most fetching tunes for me are the ones' which I start playing without even thinking. They fetch me ~ I do't find them The other night, out of the blue, I played 'An Buchaill Caol Dubh' http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4123
It was wonderful. This one is not a dance tune. It just happens to be one which 'does' come to mind. Some dance tune probably found me right after (I just cannot recall).
Then again aires & dance tunes are kindered spirits.
"The most fetching tunes for me are the ones' which I start playing without even thinking. They fetch me ~ I do't find them" ~ The Muse
I just finished an lovely dinner, but I left from here to it, and preparation. I was thinking of something similar to what you've just shared Muse.
What 'fetches' me is comfortable well-worn old shoes (dance shoes!), not generally new shiny bits, though there are some great exceptions. I'm not a Jay when it comes to music. What takes me in the heart is not so much 'new' tunes as tunes, new or old, that just feel comfortable, but that never cease to surprise me each time I return to them. They touch my heart, not my head. I can appreciate the eperiments as experiments, or the personal excess some folks are keen to take, especially when put before an audience, but those don't take my heart, they generally don't move my feet.
Simple, lovely things, new and old, are what takes ahold of me and are where I go on a whim, not to the more complex. I think that was the slight discomfort I had with the nails and tools being layed out here. I'm not sure it's my tool box. I have power tools too, but I'd much rather see the wood shaved of with a hand plane than hear the scream and whiz as something with a powerful engine rips layers off of the wood. When it's under my plane I can watch the grain being revealed and I'm close to the scent of it too. I prefer the gentle notes over the burnt ones...
These old shoes are comfortable, but because of that I can walk miles in them in comfort, and they can take me to new places, maybe not huge leaps of shock value, but a varied landscape, one that changes with the light and the weather, with my moods and with the company present, or not... I don't tire of these, and as this is about 'dance tunes', they make me want to dance. There are a lot of odd ball bundles full of 'surprise' that just don't do that for me, however gifted the person delivering them. A 'dance tune' has to dance, in my reasoning. That is why it is called a 'dance tune'... I like a tune that tickles me, that awakes the dance in me and that carries me forward and involved me, rather than one that pushes me down and demands I work in listening to it... Also, as mentioned before, I know it has me when I hum or lilt it, like when cooking or taking a stroll. Such things will follow me till death us do part, and it would be welcome if it carries further...
I began my working life about 40 years ago being trained as carpenter, joiner, cabinet maker, on a course set up by the Govt. One of the conditions demanded by the unions was that all trainees be trained in the old way, with hand tools. It may have been the last year that happened. Most of the staff and trainees considered it was a stupid requirement.
One of my first jobs was as a shuttering carpenter. That was where I first met Irish construction workers and heard the word 'craic'. The standard greating was "How's the craic?" I had no idea what it meant, but they were great fellows, hearts of gold. It was very well paid work.
I've done a lot of woodwork in my life, in every part of the trades. Some people are of the opinion that wood for musical instruments should not be cut with power tools, from felling the trees with chainsaws, to sanding finished pieces, because the noise and vibrations damages the micro structure. I'm not sure there is any measurable evidence to support that. But good hand tools are a joy to use, whereas most power tools are noisy, nasty, dangerous, expensive, and not made to last. I have many hand tools 200 years old, just as good for the job as when new.
(Right. Please forgive the intrusion. I couldn't resist Muse's musings about wood...)
You should know 'brand' is everything Muse. What brand power tools, and what kind? I'm quite fond of Metabo and Festool. I've been missing my lathe very much lately... I already have industrial strength flesh coloured earplugs I wear to some sessions, so wouldn't be interested there, unless they are boldly colourful, maybe Kelly green for St. Patrick's Day...
I'm thoroughly enjoying ceolachan's contributions to this thread, thanks mate. I love the analogy with old shoes.
I'm gonna disagree with Will though, so that might extend this thread a little. (provided that dreadful jig fellow doesn't wade in and ruin it)
Will, I just can't agree that motifs echoing each other," etc., are necessary ingredients. I just can't see any ingredient of that kind of measurable thing is necessary. Yes, a lot of great tunes do these things, but some are so off the wall.
You say that: "Perhaps the most critical ingredient is that fine balance between predictability and surprise, informed by a well-honed sense of taste within the genre (which comes from listening to, knowing, and playing a large cross-section of the tunes).
I kind of understand what you are getting at, but ceolachan puts it better. The word is "steeped". If you are steeped then your fine balance between "predictability and surprise" is superseded by "steeped" and "creativity".
If you are not steeped, then all you can do is struggle with predictability. And if you are struggling with predictability, then you can't be creative.
I was forgetting something, it was raised by you Michael. Yes, there is, or was a program that I saw that was created to generate new tunes. I'd seen similar madness that was engineered to generate new dances for the RSCDS, and, keep it to yourselves there are some of these now in their body of 'officially' recognized dances. Anyway, something was also done with Irish music in mind. I only saw and trialed it for 2/4 polkas, as that was the initial prototype. Like so many, they considered polkas as simple things for beginners, short and manageable.
So, fed with all those 'ingredients', we cranked it up and let it rip, generating 'new' tunes... I can safely say, for that trial edition, nothing generated lifted a foot... They were what you have suggested here, mechanical, a kind of Leggo of tune creating, and as plastic and angular...
GM tunes! Will they hybridise with ringtones and terminally threaten the virtue of trad, as cultivated by primitives like ourselves?
The low-down on RSCDS is weird, but I did have a feeling that some Scottish Country Dancing tunes owed little to hand or to brain; their being composed by computer is an explanation I can quite readily believe.
Nicholas, and anyone else who mentioned "ring-tones" in this thread -- you just gave me the 'opening' I was looking for.
ANOTHER TREAT (follow the mustard to the musical "deli" for condiments for connosieurs)
Earlier today I was meandering around 'through the Mustard" when I happened upon the discussion of " Leap Your --- a Special Treat" (title or aprpoximation of title). And I suddenly, out of the blue, decided to ADD another treat to the thread.
I had in mind to place a link to the Kennedy Center Millenium Stage -- Brendan Mulvihill playing several reels as solos with just guitar accompaniment. And while I was looking for the link to the Kennedy Center Millenium Stage on the net, I stumbled into GOOGLES entire list of Brendan Mulvihill entries -- and sure enough --- there it is staring off the screen at me -- "BRENDAN MULVIHILL RINGTONES." There were, however, NO RING TONES in it.
Well -- tha tis the beginning of the story. The end, in short, is that there is a LINK to Brendan playing two reels, solo with only guitar accompaniment, that are not recorded on any of his CD's that I'm aware of.
I am crazy about these reels, though I don't know what they are. However, if you want to hear them, go to the Discussion entitled "Leap Year -- Treat." I put a LINK in the discussion. I tested the link and it works. I notated the exact selection on the page to click, and exactly at what "minutes and seconds" you must move the cursor to -- to get to hear this "treat."
When Brendan is done, Billy plays a solo on the "box" and I am also crazy about that tune, and I also do not know what it is (though I think it may not be that obscure a tune).
I hope the link works for you, if you are interested.
I'm learning all three of these particularly "fetching" tunes, over the last month or so -- and thank you to whatever genius composed them.
I realized that at the very very beginning of the 2001 Kennedy Center concert, the first reel played is a composition of Brendan Mulvihill. -- and I don't think it is on any CD he has recorded either. However, this set of tunes is played during the concerts of other years, here at the Kennedy Center site, and they are all full of wonderful music.
(I typed in his last name because I've discovered that Google picks it up and from "The Session," which means other people out there in the universe an opportunity to hear this. Since Brendan hasn't recorded in ten years, why not help people out by giving them a few links?)
I do not know the name of Brendan's reel; however, I believe it is followed by one of Johnny McGreevy's compositions (box player from Chicago? -- correct me if I'm wrong).
But the tunes are WONDERFUL and the second one finishes out with dancing by a few of Sean Culkin's dancers.
Incidentally, Sean Culkin was a lawyer, who walked away from a law practice to start a school of Irish dance. It's turned into a very big dance school in this area, with a lot of different "branches" if I'm not mistaken.
Can you believe that ----- this man has one of the most fully functioning human brains on the Planet. He actually walked away from being a LAWYER in order to start a school of Irish dance -- and made a great success of it. To my mind (haivng worked for many many lawyers as a legal secretary in my last life) -- that means he gave up a huge amount of stress, boredom/tedium, screaming matches on the telephone with other lawyers and years of frustration -- in order to explore the realm of positive emotions associated with dancing and creativity!! He's taught a lot of kids to dance and he projects the aura of being a very happy guy!
And even more incidentally --- it's a treat to listen to Billy's Irish-New-Yorkese -- as he introduces tunes and tells little "stories."
What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
This is a little bit of an extension of the post about "tradition" and the survival of some particular dance tunes "down through the ages..." while others fade away.
It's very hard to "nail down" what it is about a certain melody (or one cast into the form of a dance tune) -- which makes it highly desirable and seems to edge it into the 'flowing body' of the tradition -- while other bits of music just fall into a black hole and disappear.
Nevertheless, I was quite interested to discover that of all the sets of tunes ever recorded by Altan, when I was glancing around You-tube, the set I like best of anything they've ever recorded was one somebody put up on You-tube -- the Boxty Set (I think it's the Nine Scones of Boxty or something like that).
Liz Carroll writes a lot of tunes. Interestingly, the one of the ones that sticks in my ear the very most (of those I've heard that she's written) just 'happened' to be selected by Gavin, Shannon and McGoldrick to record on their "Tunes" album --- after that gorgeou Mcgoldrick composition -- The Jewel of the Ocean (hope I have the name correct). Anyway --- "Lizzy in the Lowloands" follows M. McGoldrick's beautiful beautiful tune, in its turn being delightful and so ear-pleasing.
And frankly, I have heard a lot of original tunes on recordings that I will never pull out to listen to again.....or I'll just pull out the recording to listen to one set of tunes on it.
WHAT --- makes a tune wonderful????
And I'll wager this --- it is NOT -- in most cases -- how complex the tune is. It's got to be something else.
Part of it might be in how well certain phrases in a melody "answer" other phrases -- the ones that "call" to them. Part of it might be a bit of mixing what is easily accessible to the ear/brain of a human -- with a little bit of a surprise.
What else???????
Linda
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Fid42
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
Liz herself has said (I'm grossly paraphrasing here) that the tunes that last tend to stick together well--the parts (and phrases within the parts) "fit" each other and create a sense of organic whole.
So what makes some bits complementary and other bits disjointed? Motifs echo each other, pitch intervals and rhythmic patterns repeat, with enough of a twist to surprise, and the tune's contours create a sense of expectation or anticipation and then resolve.
On a finer level, good tunes often "set up" a poignant phrase or single note. Think of the C natural in the second half of Ashokan Farewell, or the high g in the second part of Greenfields of Rossbeigh. Our brains also interpret low and high pitches in close proximity as "emoitonal" (hear the octave jump between the first two notes of Somewhere Over a Rainbow--the high pitch tugs at our amygdala in a way that closer intervals don't).
For a start....
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
I wonder if there is something in the idea of geometric patterns in the music that "works". Sometimes sheet music - on the rare occasion that I use it
, can warn me that a tune might be a good one or not as the case might be. I am not quite sure what that visual pattern thing is, but wonder if anyone else has noticed that.
Most tunes that I find catchy have a repeated theme that seems to get developed and resolved in different ways in the A & B sections.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Donough
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
The other catchy thing in a tune is the hook-phrase. Where the rest of the tune is the padding but you are anticipating the hook coming back.
I dont think I am making much sense here.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Donough
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
You're making sense to me Donough - I often browse session tunes at work and pick ones that just catch my eye! Print them and play them later!! (I do some work in between!)
And often it's a couple of notes or a short phrase that can hook you on to a tune.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Tarrantella
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
It's when you could never guess what note or phrase follows a previous note of phrase, but once you've heard it, you could not imagine any other note of phrase in its place.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
When it wakes you up and makes you want to dance, or cry, or laugh, when your feet move on their own, or you find you're rocking to it... But that is also about who's carrying the tune at the time. I love it when dancers leave a floor and you know you've been let in, with the music, and they're humming or lilting it... The overly complex doesn't register so quickly in the heart... It might impress, but it doesn't persist without someone doing the persisting for it... It doesn't stand on its own...
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
I think what makes A Dance Tune Fetching=
Is two parts only, simple but catchy melody , and good
driving Tempo.. Ex .- Saint Anns Reel or The Galway Rambler.
jim,,
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by FIDDLE4
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
Its not just the tune, its also the way its played. The phrasing ,the swing etc. also do you notice that the same tune played in a different key may sound very diiferent.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by murcu
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
I think the question is "what makes a tune fetching?" We all know there's folks who can make any old tune sound grand and folks who make a dog's death of even the best tunes. But that's another discussion.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
Yes, agreed, and ~
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
Michael, as usual, nailed it in his first post here.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
~ for a 'start', yes...
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
There are many more nails than just that one...as I've no doubt Llig is well familiar with...
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
But then, counting your contribution too, quite a few of those nails have already been set...
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
The concept of surprise, the never being able to guess what note or phrase follows a previous note of phrase, creates a problem for the tune writer.
The vast majority of tune writers follow stuff like "ideas of geometric patterns" and "repeated themes that seems to get developed and resolved in different ways". The thing is that stuff like "motifs echoing each other, pitch intervals and rhythmic patterns repeating" just aren't enough. If they were you could write a formula, but we all know that's not possible.
Every now and then some eedjit scans 1,000 pictures of beautiful women into a computer and writes a program to find the essence of beauty. It invariably comes out bland. And I wouldn't be surprised if someone has done it with diddley tunes too.
I have no idea how such marvels of human creativity as Liz Carroll and Ed Reavy etc (not to mention the myriads of the anon) go about it. I'm just glad they do and have done.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
Llig wins the Insightful Comment of the Week prize.
(Word for word, best value).
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
More Llig, and more to consider.
Those who seem gifted are also in other ways, those I've known, and those I've not ~ but all with respect from me, have started with a huge volume of understanding and a long history of playing this music, soaked in it. That other things have drenched Liz is obvious, and there have been some choice results because of it, 'new' and 'surprising' when filed under 'Irish reel', as one category of creation...
Ed Reavy is prime material for proof, he was definitely drenched in it, and along with his tunes, there's that lovely collection he also pulled together to share with us.
Both have also taken on dance, from one side or the other or both ways, giving and receiving... Better ears you couldn't want, as in both these examples they pretty much only had to hear a tune once to pull it out and take it for a walk themselves. It completely mysterious, they put the time and effort in. Tunes from lesser mortals, who've not gained that personal and deep understanding ~ well, it seems obvious to me in the efforts they work up, and sometimes work to death.
As well, again just keeping to these two, but let's bring in Sean Ryan and the Paddy O'Briens and Vincent Broderick ~ hell, I can't think of one 'composer' I like that doesn't fit this formulae ~ there wasn't a formulae, they didn't build their tunes in a lab, it wasn't so analytical or with great effort ~ they just came to them, out of the air, they just fell out, and mostly with little real struggle or effort ~ "Hey, that's nice, where the hell did that come from? I don't recognize it?" ~ or ~ through simple farting around, they have a catch some few notes they like and start tickling and suddenly it grows into a tune...and they like it and decide to make it their own...
I also have no doubt that they've let more pass by than they've caught and kept for posterity. Music is that way, a wonderful and magic obsession that takes you over more than you taking over it... At least once you've given it enough time that it is 'second nature', deep set...
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
Agreed, Michael. All I was saying is that "motifs echoing each other," etc., are necessary ingredients--you won't get a fetching tune without them.
Perhaps the most critical ingredient is that fine balance between predictability and surprise, informed by a well-honed sense of taste within the genre (which comes from listening to, knowing, and playing a large cross-section of the tunes).
There are similarities with written language. As a writer, you learn to vary your syntax, vocabulary, pace, and rhythm to keep it interesting, but always within some vague bounds of what makes prose "reader friendly." You look for just the right word, as a musical composer must look for just the right pitch. The piece begs for basic structure--a beginning, middle, and end.
But music doesn't "mean" anything--there's no point to make. It's an abstraction, simply emotionally evocative (if it's good music). So there's more freedom to combine all the bits that make a tune (pitches, phrases, beats, etc.,) in any ol' which way until you find something that clicks. Liam Kelly's tune The Hungry Rock is a good example of how far that freedom can take you without escapting the boundaries of the genre. It's hard to imagine coming up with such a tune if you're composing based on a formula or some alleged set of rules for what makes a tune fetching. Yet there it is.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Will CPT
What Makes a Tune Fetching?"
ceolachan I like the analogy of hand tools.
Sometimes the old ways prove better than the latest technology. I have been working at a house with a nervous dog. The 'noise' of power tools is more than he can handle.
The solution is do everything by hand.
Requires more skill & you have to set each nail.
The most fetching tunes for me are the ones' which I start playing without even thinking. They fetch me ~ I do't find them The other night, out of the blue, I played 'An Buchaill Caol Dubh'
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/4123
It was wonderful. This one is not a dance tune. It just happens to be one which 'does' come to mind. Some dance tune probably found me right after (I just cannot recall).
Then again aires & dance tunes are kindered spirits.
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
"The most fetching tunes for me are the ones' which I start playing without even thinking. They fetch me ~ I do't find them" ~ The Muse
I just finished an lovely dinner, but I left from here to it, and preparation. I was thinking of something similar to what you've just shared Muse.
What 'fetches' me is comfortable well-worn old shoes (dance shoes!), not generally new shiny bits, though there are some great exceptions. I'm not a Jay when it comes to music. What takes me in the heart is not so much 'new' tunes as tunes, new or old, that just feel comfortable, but that never cease to surprise me each time I return to them. They touch my heart, not my head. I can appreciate the eperiments as experiments, or the personal excess some folks are keen to take, especially when put before an audience, but those don't take my heart, they generally don't move my feet.
Simple, lovely things, new and old, are what takes ahold of me and are where I go on a whim, not to the more complex. I think that was the slight discomfort I had with the nails and tools being layed out here. I'm not sure it's my tool box. I have power tools too, but I'd much rather see the wood shaved of with a hand plane than hear the scream and whiz as something with a powerful engine rips layers off of the wood. When it's under my plane I can watch the grain being revealed and I'm close to the scent of it too. I prefer the gentle notes over the burnt ones...
These old shoes are comfortable, but because of that I can walk miles in them in comfort, and they can take me to new places, maybe not huge leaps of shock value, but a varied landscape, one that changes with the light and the weather, with my moods and with the company present, or not... I don't tire of these, and as this is about 'dance tunes', they make me want to dance. There are a lot of odd ball bundles full of 'surprise' that just don't do that for me, however gifted the person delivering them. A 'dance tune' has to dance, in my reasoning. That is why it is called a 'dance tune'... I like a tune that tickles me, that awakes the dance in me and that carries me forward and involved me, rather than one that pushes me down and demands I work in listening to it... Also, as mentioned before, I know it has me when I hum or lilt it, like when cooking or taking a stroll. Such things will follow me till death us do part, and it would be welcome if it carries further...
I love the listening pieces too Muse...
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Will trade for a fetching tune . . .
For Sale ~ March 1st - 2nd. Top of the line power tools. Includes 'new' ear plugs w/ each purchase.
;)
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Random_notes
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
(Off topic, sorry Linda)
I began my working life about 40 years ago being trained as carpenter, joiner, cabinet maker, on a course set up by the Govt. One of the conditions demanded by the unions was that all trainees be trained in the old way, with hand tools. It may have been the last year that happened. Most of the staff and trainees considered it was a stupid requirement.
One of my first jobs was as a shuttering carpenter. That was where I first met Irish construction workers and heard the word 'craic'. The standard greating was "How's the craic?" I had no idea what it meant, but they were great fellows, hearts of gold. It was very well paid work.
I've done a lot of woodwork in my life, in every part of the trades. Some people are of the opinion that wood for musical instruments should not be cut with power tools, from felling the trees with chainsaws, to sanding finished pieces, because the noise and vibrations damages the micro structure. I'm not sure there is any measurable evidence to support that. But good hand tools are a joy to use, whereas most power tools are noisy, nasty, dangerous, expensive, and not made to last. I have many hand tools 200 years old, just as good for the job as when new.
(Right. Please forgive the intrusion. I couldn't resist Muse's musings about wood...)
http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~chrislees/tao.index.html
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
You should know 'brand' is everything Muse. What brand power tools, and what kind? I'm quite fond of Metabo and Festool. I've been missing my lathe very much lately... I already have industrial strength flesh coloured earplugs I wear to some sessions, so wouldn't be interested there, unless they are boldly colourful, maybe Kelly green for St. Patrick's Day...
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
wolfbird ~ inspired, and here's a rephrase ~
'One of the conditions demanded ~ was that all trainees be trained in the old way'
'good tunes are a joy to use'
'I have many tunes 100s of years old just as good for the job as when new.'
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by ceolachan
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
Aaaw, you're just trying to pull me out of the cold and put the topic back on track, eh ? Hope yous feeling better ?
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
I'm thoroughly enjoying ceolachan's contributions to this thread, thanks mate. I love the analogy with old shoes.
I'm gonna disagree with Will though, so that might extend this thread a little. (provided that dreadful jig fellow doesn't wade in and ruin it)
Will, I just can't agree that motifs echoing each other," etc., are necessary ingredients. I just can't see any ingredient of that kind of measurable thing is necessary. Yes, a lot of great tunes do these things, but some are so off the wall.
You say that: "Perhaps the most critical ingredient is that fine balance between predictability and surprise, informed by a well-honed sense of taste within the genre (which comes from listening to, knowing, and playing a large cross-section of the tunes).
I kind of understand what you are getting at, but ceolachan puts it better. The word is "steeped". If you are steeped then your fine balance between "predictability and surprise" is superseded by "steeped" and "creativity".
If you are not steeped, then all you can do is struggle with predictability. And if you are struggling with predictability, then you can't be creative.
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
I was forgetting something, it was raised by you Michael. Yes, there is, or was a program that I saw that was created to generate new tunes. I'd seen similar madness that was engineered to generate new dances for the RSCDS, and, keep it to yourselves
there are some of these now in their body of 'officially' recognized dances. Anyway, something was also done with Irish music in mind. I only saw and trialed it for 2/4 polkas, as that was the initial prototype. Like so many, they considered polkas as simple things for beginners, short and manageable.
So, fed with all those 'ingredients', we cranked it up and let it rip, generating 'new' tunes... I can safely say, for that trial edition, nothing generated lifted a foot... They were what you have suggested here, mechanical, a kind of Leggo of tune creating, and as plastic and angular...
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by ceolachan
& lifeless...
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
GM tunes! Will they hybridise with ringtones and terminally threaten the virtue of trad, as cultivated by primitives like ourselves?
The low-down on RSCDS is weird, but I did have a feeling that some Scottish Country Dancing tunes owed little to hand or to brain; their being composed by computer is an explanation I can quite readily believe.
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by nicholas
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
Nicholas, and anyone else who mentioned "ring-tones" in this thread -- you just gave me the 'opening' I was looking for.
ANOTHER TREAT (follow the mustard to the musical "deli" for condiments for connosieurs)
Earlier today I was meandering around 'through the Mustard" when I happened upon the discussion of " Leap Your --- a Special Treat" (title or aprpoximation of title). And I suddenly, out of the blue, decided to ADD another treat to the thread.
I had in mind to place a link to the Kennedy Center Millenium Stage -- Brendan Mulvihill playing several reels as solos with just guitar accompaniment. And while I was looking for the link to the Kennedy Center Millenium Stage on the net, I stumbled into GOOGLES entire list of Brendan Mulvihill entries -- and sure enough --- there it is staring off the screen at me -- "BRENDAN MULVIHILL RINGTONES." There were, however, NO RING TONES in it.
Well -- tha tis the beginning of the story. The end, in short, is that there is a LINK to Brendan playing two reels, solo with only guitar accompaniment, that are not recorded on any of his CD's that I'm aware of.
I am crazy about these reels, though I don't know what they are. However, if you want to hear them, go to the Discussion entitled "Leap Year -- Treat." I put a LINK in the discussion. I tested the link and it works. I notated the exact selection on the page to click, and exactly at what "minutes and seconds" you must move the cursor to -- to get to hear this "treat."
When Brendan is done, Billy plays a solo on the "box" and I am also crazy about that tune, and I also do not know what it is (though I think it may not be that obscure a tune).
I hope the link works for you, if you are interested.
I'm learning all three of these particularly "fetching" tunes, over the last month or so -- and thank you to whatever genius composed them.
Linda
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by Fid42
Re: What Makes a Dance Tune "Fetching?"
AND YET -- MORE FETCHING TREATS
I realized that at the very very beginning of the 2001 Kennedy Center concert, the first reel played is a composition of Brendan Mulvihill. -- and I don't think it is on any CD he has recorded either. However, this set of tunes is played during the concerts of other years, here at the Kennedy Center site, and they are all full of wonderful music.
(I typed in his last name because I've discovered that Google picks it up and from "The Session," which means other people out there in the universe an opportunity to hear this. Since Brendan hasn't recorded in ten years, why not help people out by giving them a few links?)
I do not know the name of Brendan's reel; however, I believe it is followed by one of Johnny McGreevy's compositions (box player from Chicago? -- correct me if I'm wrong).
But the tunes are WONDERFUL and the second one finishes out with dancing by a few of Sean Culkin's dancers.
Incidentally, Sean Culkin was a lawyer, who walked away from a law practice to start a school of Irish dance. It's turned into a very big dance school in this area, with a lot of different "branches" if I'm not mistaken.
Can you believe that ----- this man has one of the most fully functioning human brains on the Planet. He actually walked away from being a LAWYER in order to start a school of Irish dance -- and made a great success of it. To my mind (haivng worked for many many lawyers as a legal secretary in my last life) -- that means he gave up a huge amount of stress, boredom/tedium, screaming matches on the telephone with other lawyers and years of frustration -- in order to explore the realm of positive emotions associated with dancing and creativity!! He's taught a lot of kids to dance and he projects the aura of being a very happy guy!
And even more incidentally --- it's a treat to listen to Billy's Irish-New-Yorkese -- as he introduces tunes and tells little "stories."
Linda
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by Fid42