I think Darol Anger calls it "chunking." Great for blues and rock, not so sure how it would fit into Irish trad. Basically, you'd be mimicking what a guitar would do.
You can do almost any rhythm with chunking. Try an up bow pick-up, down, then up again, with the oomph on the down. All at the frog. Repeat.
Like with what SWFL Fiddler said, you should be careful with that. I'm a chopper as well, but I only do it in certain situations where it'd be appropriate... An Irish session would not, hehe.
What I do like about it is that it makes me think harmonically... Unfortunately for the most part, thinking harmonically means I IV V =P
If you have a loop pedal and plug in, it'd be great for accompanying yourself!
"The Chop" is Darol Anger's term for the rhythmic technique he pretty much invented, though it’s a development and refinement of a technique for playing cords in Bluegrass. Darol Anger developed the chop for the Turtle Island String Quartet; they were playing jazz but had no rhythm instruments, and the chop allows you to turn the fiddle into a rhythm instrument and accompany the other strings. Provided you realise that in using the chop, which is generally used for accompaniment, you are using the fiddle as a completely different kind of instrument, there’s no obvious reason not to exclude it from Irish music (it will fall under accompaniment or percussion rather than “fiddle music”). Used with a degree of reserve and taste I think the chop could be fine as a new kind of accompaniment in Irish music, it could certainly be less intrusive to traditional music than piano vamping and similar horrors.
I also recommend Darol Anger's DVD "Chops & Grooves: Rhythmic Explorations for Bowed Instruments" (not too pricey on Amazon.)
Crooked Still performing "Darling Corey", to see how the chop works when someone has fairly complete control of the instrument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dREOYdOutU
Chops are fine in Bluegrass, Country, Pop music, whatever. Can sound nice even! Still, hearing chops in Irish music makes my skin crawl.
I've heard literally dozens of people in town try to do it with tunes. Darol teaches at the Berkelee School of Music here in Boston, and there are tons of really good fiddle players going into and coming out of that school, many of whom play Scottish/Irish music. But it's gotten to the point where I start to feel physically uncomfortable whenever I hear someone chop during an Irish tune. (I've felt a need to walk out of concerts in the past few months, purely because the fiddlers' chopping was driving me batty)
Irish tunes are rhythmic, true, but they are also melodic. It's that combination of clear solid rhythm, intricate melody, and ornamentation that I enjoy about listening to tunes. Chopping decimates entire bars of that melody/ornamentation in favor of a cheap rhythmic stunt.
There are plenty of nice rhythmic ornaments that one can do in playing Irish fiddle that don't decimate the melody: rolls, triplets, etc. Please use them instead.
I really do hesitate to say that "chops have no place in Irish music", since somebody might actually manage to prove me wrong at some point, and I try to remain open-minded as a matter of principle. But I have heard lots of really, spectacularly, good fiddle players (for whom I otherwise have great respect) try to make it work, and I've never thought it was an improvement.
I'll leave it to the Scottish fiddlers to defend their music from the chopping tendencies of Alastair Fraser (and the like), but I will stick to my guns with respect to ITM.
It's interesting that those clips neddiscotus posted veer pretty far from traditional American styles as well. The Crooked Still one, for example, is a prime example of "newgrass", or bluegrass crossed with jazz, and there are many traditional bluegrass fans who don't like that stuff either (myself included). Chopping in Irish and Scottish music is only for people who want to significantly play with the genre (and Alasdair Fraser has a history of doing that anyway). It's probably just a matter of taste, although I can't say I enjoy it.
Darol Anger says “Always use the chop for good, and never for evil”. It ought to contribute to the music and not just be for the sake of participating. Irish music is a solo enterprise traditionally, all accompaniment is a new development in the music. The chop can be used for evil in Irish music, no doubt, but pianos, banjos, wash-board-style guitar, and other dire accompaniment can also be evil, and frequently is! Personally, I like Natalie Haas’s accompaniment to Alasdair Fraser’s fiddling. It’s understated, is in character with the solo fiddle, and is not remotely as intrusive as the typical piano thumping common on Scottish CDs and Frankie Gavin CDs, for instance. Also, I rather like version of Banish Misfortune on Darol Anger’s DVD “Chops and Grooves”, with two fiddles and a cello, I thought the string backing (which includes the chop) was superb and not at all out of character with the Irish style.
Actually, I think I might see your point about the chop being a great evil in Irish music. If the chop is used as part of the melody that would be disastrous to the music, and horribly out of character. Irish music has its own style and its own techniques. (Alasdair Fraser, for instance, does not ‘chop’ during the melody (or ever, as far as I’m aware), though Natalie Haas does on his CDs, as accompaniment. As rhythmic accompaniment I don’t think the chop is obviously harmful to the music. Lots of good Scots bands and Scandinavian bands feature fiddles playing cords (flying staccato) as backing. This can be good, even though it’s not a feature of melody playing in traditional fiddle music. But it’s as accompaniment to the tune which is played in the traditional style. The chop could, I believe, be used equally effectively, as accompaniment in Irish music!
"The chop could, I believe, be used equally effectively, as accompaniment in Irish music!"
And many of us would wager that you'd be wrong. Though there's no accounting for some people's tastes.
The chop works when it's used to emulate backbeat mandolin or guitar back up (common in bluegrass and rock). There are at least three reasons this is not a good idea in Irish trad music:
1. Back up or accompnaiment is unecessary and tends to bury the nuances that maek this music what it is.
2. Relentless backbeat (or any unwavering pounding of the beat) ruins the pulse and restricts the melody player's freedom to follow the tune.
3. It's a poor use of a fiddle to treat it like a drum.
... meanwhile - Richard Greene! Wow! From memory, when I heard quite a bit of him in the early 70s, he didn't used to chop much. He was such a fine, flowing, melodic player. Fantastic use of the instrument, and wonderful inventiveness, both in the notes he came up with and in the amazing range of bowing techniques he had at his disposal. For my money, the only other fiddler I've heard with that degree of inventiveness combined with musicality would be Stephane Grappelli.
There are lots of top class fiddlers one hears, and you think to yourself "I could do that ... you know, with a bit more application ... and time ...". But those two? You just listen and realise that they're a different species.
Will CPT writes:
"Relentless backbeat", quite right, who wants it? But who's suggesting it? Again, what do you think of Natalie Haas's accompaniment? Not relentless or overdone surely! (Except that you say "Back up or accompnaiment is unecessary".)
"It's a poor use of a fiddle to treat it like a drum."
Again, Natalie Haas makes it sound pretty good. And I'd prefer if people used fiddle as a rhythm instrument than use it as a rhythmless instrument like Tommy Peoples!
"use it as a rhythmless instrument like Tommy Peoples"
huh? You don't hear the rhythm in Tommy Peoples's playing? Really?
Secondly, there are some things to remember about Natalie Haas---first of all, the music she does with Alasdair Fraser is Scottish music, which has different rhythms than Irish music does. Maybe some of it could work in Donegal music, but that has many ties to Scottish music anyway. Also, and this should be obvious, she plays the cello, not the violin. She can do a lot of things a violin can do, but the cello also lends itself more to rhythm playing and chordal accompaniment.
Now that I think about it, I do remember seeing Sean Smyth doing come chopping in Lunasa. But again, their music plays with the genre---they like to invent new ways of playing their tunes. They do it brilliantly, but it's a performance-based music, not the kind of thing you would expect to hear at the local pub, and again, it becomes a matter of taste---some people like that stuff (I like their particular version of it), and some don't.
I really like the chop as a way for another fiddle to back up a solo fiddle playing a tune straight through...I don't know about its use during the melody of a tune, but listen to Hanneke Cassel's Silver track two...AMAZING
Sean Smyth may do chopping, but he doesn't do "The Chop".
I think some ppl on here are confused about what is meant by the chop vs. chopping. I think this is why Darol Anger has described it has chunking to avoid confusion. You can perform chopping by moving the bow in short successive movements whilst lifting it and coming back down on the strings and sounding notes. Performing a chop specifically is a modern technique and can only be achieved by an accurate bow strike closest to the frog and coming down on the strings. No sound is uttered but a crunching rhythmic sound. A note can then be sounding on the upstroke of the chop. Thus creating a boom-chuck type of rhythm.
You're right, the guy from Lunasa does not do 'the chop' (hard (almost toneless) drop on the down stroke near the frog, with a sprung cord on the up stroke), as developed by Darol Anger. So whatever he's doing to make his music untraditional, it's not the chop! I have never heard Darol anger call this "chunking" though, on account of him constantly calling this technique "The Chop". Is chunking something different perhaps?
Chops?
Chops?
I've been experimenting with chopping on 2 string "chords" with the fiddle..
I do a down bow to sound the chord, and then rapidly bring the bow back up and "crunch" on the strings.
I know there are a lot of different ways of chopping, but does anyone have any advice for learning this interesting ornament?
Do chops fit into any tunes? Or is it just purely a fun technique
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by ElliotI
Re: Chops?
You could try this DVD:
http://www.homespuntapes.com/shop/product.aspx?ID=276
It will show you some amazing chopping techniques.
Also listen to the music of Hanneke Cassel for the use of Chops in Scottish Music.
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by davydd
Re: Chops?
This may be helpful from Darol Anger:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Lud1IMpJm4
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by Aiki
Re: Chops?
I think Darol Anger calls it "chunking." Great for blues and rock, not so sure how it would fit into Irish trad. Basically, you'd be mimicking what a guitar would do.
You can do almost any rhythm with chunking. Try an up bow pick-up, down, then up again, with the oomph on the down. All at the frog. Repeat.
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Chops?
thanks for the quick and helpful responses!
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by ElliotI
Re: Chops?
Careful, this is primarily an American ornament. Works great with the Bluegrassers, but you may get some nasty looks at an Irish session.
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Chops?
Yeeeah,
Like with what SWFL Fiddler said, you should be careful with that. I'm a chopper as well, but I only do it in certain situations where it'd be appropriate... An Irish session would not, hehe.
What I do like about it is that it makes me think harmonically... Unfortunately for the most part, thinking harmonically means I IV V =P
If you have a loop pedal and plug in, it'd be great for accompanying yourself!
Cheers,
Armand
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by fiddlinviolinin
Re: Chops?
"The Chop" is Darol Anger's term for the rhythmic technique he pretty much invented, though it’s a development and refinement of a technique for playing cords in Bluegrass. Darol Anger developed the chop for the Turtle Island String Quartet; they were playing jazz but had no rhythm instruments, and the chop allows you to turn the fiddle into a rhythm instrument and accompany the other strings. Provided you realise that in using the chop, which is generally used for accompaniment, you are using the fiddle as a completely different kind of instrument, there’s no obvious reason not to exclude it from Irish music (it will fall under accompaniment or percussion rather than “fiddle music”). Used with a degree of reserve and taste I think the chop could be fine as a new kind of accompaniment in Irish music, it could certainly be less intrusive to traditional music than piano vamping and similar horrors.
I also recommend Darol Anger's DVD "Chops & Grooves: Rhythmic Explorations for Bowed Instruments" (not too pricey on Amazon.)
To see the chop in action, have a look at Brittany Haas and Darol Anger from the band Republic of Strings, playing Duck River: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8yNpm_vNRz4&feature=related
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Chops?
More vids of the chop in use:
Crooked Still performing "Darling Corey", to see how the chop works when someone has fairly complete control of the instrument: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3dREOYdOutU
Crooked Still playing "Foggy Mountain Special", including some amazing cello chopping:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bwcq6CMnYVU&NR=1
Alex Dupue using the chop and lots of other nifty techniques while playing rock and roll violin:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHC_Qyov2Xc&feature=related
# Posted on February 28th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Chops?
This Alex Depue is amazing!
# Posted on February 29th 2008 by Henk Bos
Re: Chops?
Oh Lordy.
Chops are fine in Bluegrass, Country, Pop music, whatever. Can sound nice even! Still, hearing chops in Irish music makes my skin crawl.
I've heard literally dozens of people in town try to do it with tunes. Darol teaches at the Berkelee School of Music here in Boston, and there are tons of really good fiddle players going into and coming out of that school, many of whom play Scottish/Irish music. But it's gotten to the point where I start to feel physically uncomfortable whenever I hear someone chop during an Irish tune. (I've felt a need to walk out of concerts in the past few months, purely because the fiddlers' chopping was driving me batty)
Irish tunes are rhythmic, true, but they are also melodic. It's that combination of clear solid rhythm, intricate melody, and ornamentation that I enjoy about listening to tunes. Chopping decimates entire bars of that melody/ornamentation in favor of a cheap rhythmic stunt.
There are plenty of nice rhythmic ornaments that one can do in playing Irish fiddle that don't decimate the melody: rolls, triplets, etc. Please use them instead.
I really do hesitate to say that "chops have no place in Irish music", since somebody might actually manage to prove me wrong at some point, and I try to remain open-minded as a matter of principle. But I have heard lots of really, spectacularly, good fiddle players (for whom I otherwise have great respect) try to make it work, and I've never thought it was an improvement.
I'll leave it to the Scottish fiddlers to defend their music from the chopping tendencies of Alastair Fraser (and the like), but I will stick to my guns with respect to ITM.
<shudder>
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by Georgi
Re: Chops?
Georgi, I shudder right along with you.
It's interesting that those clips neddiscotus posted veer pretty far from traditional American styles as well. The Crooked Still one, for example, is a prime example of "newgrass", or bluegrass crossed with jazz, and there are many traditional bluegrass fans who don't like that stuff either (myself included). Chopping in Irish and Scottish music is only for people who want to significantly play with the genre (and Alasdair Fraser has a history of doing that anyway). It's probably just a matter of taste, although I can't say I enjoy it.
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by kennedy
Re: Chops?
Darol Anger says “Always use the chop for good, and never for evil”. It ought to contribute to the music and not just be for the sake of participating. Irish music is a solo enterprise traditionally, all accompaniment is a new development in the music. The chop can be used for evil in Irish music, no doubt, but pianos, banjos, wash-board-style guitar, and other dire accompaniment can also be evil, and frequently is! Personally, I like Natalie Haas’s accompaniment to Alasdair Fraser’s fiddling. It’s understated, is in character with the solo fiddle, and is not remotely as intrusive as the typical piano thumping common on Scottish CDs and Frankie Gavin CDs, for instance. Also, I rather like version of Banish Misfortune on Darol Anger’s DVD “Chops and Grooves”, with two fiddles and a cello, I thought the string backing (which includes the chop) was superb and not at all out of character with the Irish style.
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Chops?
Actually, I think I might see your point about the chop being a great evil in Irish music. If the chop is used as part of the melody that would be disastrous to the music, and horribly out of character. Irish music has its own style and its own techniques. (Alasdair Fraser, for instance, does not ‘chop’ during the melody (or ever, as far as I’m aware), though Natalie Haas does on his CDs, as accompaniment. As rhythmic accompaniment I don’t think the chop is obviously harmful to the music. Lots of good Scots bands and Scandinavian bands feature fiddles playing cords (flying staccato) as backing. This can be good, even though it’s not a feature of melody playing in traditional fiddle music. But it’s as accompaniment to the tune which is played in the traditional style. The chop could, I believe, be used equally effectively, as accompaniment in Irish music!
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Chops?
Darol Anger did not invent "The Chop". Richard Greene did.
Darol Anger has done much for the technique, but credit where credit is due.
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by Aiki
Re: Chops?
"The chop could, I believe, be used equally effectively, as accompaniment in Irish music!"
And many of us would wager that you'd be wrong. Though there's no accounting for some people's tastes.
The chop works when it's used to emulate backbeat mandolin or guitar back up (common in bluegrass and rock). There are at least three reasons this is not a good idea in Irish trad music:
1. Back up or accompnaiment is unecessary and tends to bury the nuances that maek this music what it is.
2. Relentless backbeat (or any unwavering pounding of the beat) ruins the pulse and restricts the melody player's freedom to follow the tune.
3. It's a poor use of a fiddle to treat it like a drum.
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by Will CPT
Re: Chops?
I'm with Georgi and Will on this one ...
... meanwhile - Richard Greene! Wow! From memory, when I heard quite a bit of him in the early 70s, he didn't used to chop much. He was such a fine, flowing, melodic player. Fantastic use of the instrument, and wonderful inventiveness, both in the notes he came up with and in the amazing range of bowing techniques he had at his disposal. For my money, the only other fiddler I've heard with that degree of inventiveness combined with musicality would be Stephane Grappelli.
There are lots of top class fiddlers one hears, and you think to yourself "I could do that ... you know, with a bit more application ... and time ...". But those two? You just listen and realise that they're a different species.
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Chops?
Will CPT writes:
"Relentless backbeat", quite right, who wants it? But who's suggesting it? Again, what do you think of Natalie Haas's accompaniment? Not relentless or overdone surely! (Except that you say "Back up or accompnaiment is unecessary".)
"It's a poor use of a fiddle to treat it like a drum."
Again, Natalie Haas makes it sound pretty good. And I'd prefer if people used fiddle as a rhythm instrument than use it as a rhythmless instrument like Tommy Peoples!
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Chops?
"use it as a rhythmless instrument like Tommy Peoples"
huh? You don't hear the rhythm in Tommy Peoples's playing? Really?
Secondly, there are some things to remember about Natalie Haas---first of all, the music she does with Alasdair Fraser is Scottish music, which has different rhythms than Irish music does. Maybe some of it could work in Donegal music, but that has many ties to Scottish music anyway. Also, and this should be obvious, she plays the cello, not the violin. She can do a lot of things a violin can do, but the cello also lends itself more to rhythm playing and chordal accompaniment.
Now that I think about it, I do remember seeing Sean Smyth doing come chopping in Lunasa. But again, their music plays with the genre---they like to invent new ways of playing their tunes. They do it brilliantly, but it's a performance-based music, not the kind of thing you would expect to hear at the local pub, and again, it becomes a matter of taste---some people like that stuff (I like their particular version of it), and some don't.
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by kennedy
Re: Chops?
I really like the chop as a way for another fiddle to back up a solo fiddle playing a tune straight through...I don't know about its use during the melody of a tune, but listen to Hanneke Cassel's Silver track two...AMAZING
# Posted on March 2nd 2008 by ElliotI
Re: Chops?
Sean Smyth may do chopping, but he doesn't do "The Chop".
I think some ppl on here are confused about what is meant by the chop vs. chopping. I think this is why Darol Anger has described it has chunking to avoid confusion. You can perform chopping by moving the bow in short successive movements whilst lifting it and coming back down on the strings and sounding notes. Performing a chop specifically is a modern technique and can only be achieved by an accurate bow strike closest to the frog and coming down on the strings. No sound is uttered but a crunching rhythmic sound. A note can then be sounding on the upstroke of the chop. Thus creating a boom-chuck type of rhythm.
# Posted on March 2nd 2008 by Aiki
Re: Chops?
You're right, the guy from Lunasa does not do 'the chop' (hard (almost toneless) drop on the down stroke near the frog, with a sprung cord on the up stroke), as developed by Darol Anger. So whatever he's doing to make his music untraditional, it's not the chop! I have never heard Darol anger call this "chunking" though, on account of him constantly calling this technique "The Chop". Is chunking something different perhaps?
# Posted on March 4th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Chops?
The Chop:
http://www.darolanger.com/choppage.html
As far as I can see 'chunking' is not the same thing!
# Posted on March 4th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: Chops?
Thank you all for the great and informative discussion
# Posted on April 4th 2008 by ElliotI