You guys usually help me with clarifying stuff that I need answers to. Question; Is intonation finger placement feel, or is it hearing exactly the note perfectly?
The ears. Alone. If you start by trying to learn good intonation from finger position, you're lost. Of course, you have to know roughly where the fingers are supposed to go - depending on the tones and semi-tones etc - but that won't, in itself, get you good tuning.
I used to put tapes on the fingerboards, and always wanted them to play better in tune (and they didn't). When the tapes came off and they learned fiddle tunes by ear, THAT'S when they started to play better in tune. I have a student that takes private lessons from me, and is now in the public school class, too. The public school teacher put stickers on the fingerboard. They are not really in the right places, but my student and I know that the other teacher is just trying to be helpful; my student uses her ears and doesn't say anything about the stickers.
While ears alone are what's best for intonation, touch can also be used to learn where to put the fingers, in relationship to each other. The finger patterns help with the mechanics, but it's really the ear that senses intonation.
The clear answer to your question is "by ear". But, then what intervals do you hear as correct? You might want to read a few of the discussions on this board regarding just versus tempered tuning. Better yet, listen to some old fiddle recordings and try to figure out why they (might at first) sound a little out of tune.
Wouldn't it really be a combination of both? I mean your ear has to tell you when you're off pitch, of course, but it's a matter of developing hand shapes as well. Like for instance, there's that G2 BGdBG phrase that's in so many tunes---I find that my index finger tends to go flat on the B, so I have to remind myself to bring it a touch higher, and that's more of a feel issue.
The best thing that's helped me with intonation is playing notes together---open strings is the easiest way, but stopped notes as well---with the phrase above, for example, I would play the G together with the open G string, and then play the B together with the stopped G, and make sure everything sounded smooth and in tune. I get those pitches in my ear and then the whole tune comes out sounding better.
But the string does feel a bit different when the intonation is right; the vibrations are stronger.
Your fingers learn to just go to the right spot after a while, so you do get a "feel" for where the fingers should go. But it's your ear that teachers your fingers where to go.
Ear,that is one reason why the fiddle is such a difficult instrument.
no frets,youhave to learn to adjust with your finger quickly.
Trombonists and the Cellists,have a similiar problem.
Dick Miles
The more atuned your ear becomes, the more you realise that upward and downward scales don't have exactly the some notes in - only approximately the same, especially the 7th note of the scale.
As a singer, I can feel the difference, so it must be very obvious to a player of an instrument with "wide" semi-tones e.g. cello or bass.
Thats interesting geoffwright. I have been practising playing over drones a lot recently. Certainly tightning up my flute intonation. Except that 7th note (major scale) about which the drone tells my ear nothing. So maybe I'll just let the tune guide me on that one.
Probably all of us hear differently because of genetics or hearing damage. I know with my ears, that for a given tone, because the upper overtones are not exactly in tune with the main lowest part of the tone, (the "fundamental"), my right and left ears do not perceive the pitch as identical for some tones. I found this out with headphones. A fiddle player would maybe hear a pitch as higher or lower depending on whether played in a live room so that the ear away from the instrument is hearing the volume more. The moral is, carry earplus with you to avoid hearing damage!
Here’s something I’ve recently noticed about my pitch perception. When I’m commuting, I often wear ear plugs and crank up the audio volume to defeat the road noise. Last week, while listening to fiddle music, I removed the ear plugs (after turning down the volume!) and noticed that the pitch of the fiddle seemed to go very slightly sharp. I’ve experimented a few more times and it seems to be a real effect. I haven’t researched the question, but I suspect the ear plugs are filtering out some high frequencies that contribute to the perception of a slightly higher fundamental pitch.
Dear Bob, Yes, I know this effect, and I forget the mechanics, But: my college acoustics of music course said it is unavoidable in all of us: louder sounds of the same frequency always sound sharper.
Louder sounds sharper? I wasn’t aware of that, but I can believe it. But I’m wearing ear plugs for the loud music and turning down the volume before I remove the plugs. Both samples, to my ears, are at about the same db level, yet without the earplugs it sounds sharper.
Intonation; Position or ear?
Intonation; Position or ear?
Hi there,
You guys usually help me with clarifying stuff that I need answers to. Question; Is intonation finger placement feel, or is it hearing exactly the note perfectly?
Thanks
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Shylock
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
I sense this question is meant for fiddlers? As a flute player, I'm going to go with it being in the ears rather than the fingers
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by fliedermaus
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
The ears. Alone. If you start by trying to learn good intonation from finger position, you're lost. Of course, you have to know roughly where the fingers are supposed to go - depending on the tones and semi-tones etc - but that won't, in itself, get you good tuning.
Listen.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
I used to put tapes on the fingerboards, and always wanted them to play better in tune (and they didn't). When the tapes came off and they learned fiddle tunes by ear, THAT'S when they started to play better in tune. I have a student that takes private lessons from me, and is now in the public school class, too. The public school teacher put stickers on the fingerboard. They are not really in the right places, but my student and I know that the other teacher is just trying to be helpful; my student uses her ears and doesn't say anything about the stickers.
While ears alone are what's best for intonation, touch can also be used to learn where to put the fingers, in relationship to each other. The finger patterns help with the mechanics, but it's really the ear that senses intonation.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by wyogal
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Shylock
The clear answer to your question is "by ear". But, then what intervals do you hear as correct? You might want to read a few of the discussions on this board regarding just versus tempered tuning. Better yet, listen to some old fiddle recordings and try to figure out why they (might at first) sound a little out of tune.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by larrywcusick
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Wouldn't it really be a combination of both? I mean your ear has to tell you when you're off pitch, of course, but it's a matter of developing hand shapes as well. Like for instance, there's that G2 BGdBG phrase that's in so many tunes---I find that my index finger tends to go flat on the B, so I have to remind myself to bring it a touch higher, and that's more of a feel issue.
The best thing that's helped me with intonation is playing notes together---open strings is the easiest way, but stopped notes as well---with the phrase above, for example, I would play the G together with the open G string, and then play the B together with the stopped G, and make sure everything sounded smooth and in tune. I get those pitches in my ear and then the whole tune comes out sounding better.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by kennedy
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Ear.
But the string does feel a bit different when the intonation is right; the vibrations are stronger.
Your fingers learn to just go to the right spot after a while, so you do get a "feel" for where the fingers should go. But it's your ear that teachers your fingers where to go.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Marklar
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Ear,that is one reason why the fiddle is such a difficult instrument.
no frets,youhave to learn to adjust with your finger quickly.
Trombonists and the Cellists,have a similiar problem.
Dick Miles
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
The more atuned your ear becomes, the more you realise that upward and downward scales don't have exactly the some notes in - only approximately the same, especially the 7th note of the scale.
As a singer, I can feel the difference, so it must be very obvious to a player of an instrument with "wide" semi-tones e.g. cello or bass.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by geoffwright
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Thats interesting geoffwright. I have been practising playing over drones a lot recently. Certainly tightning up my flute intonation. Except that 7th note (major scale) about which the drone tells my ear nothing. So maybe I'll just let the tune guide me on that one.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by david_h
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Probably all of us hear differently because of genetics or hearing damage. I know with my ears, that for a given tone, because the upper overtones are not exactly in tune with the main lowest part of the tone, (the "fundamental"), my right and left ears do not perceive the pitch as identical for some tones. I found this out with headphones. A fiddle player would maybe hear a pitch as higher or lower depending on whether played in a live room so that the ear away from the instrument is hearing the volume more. The moral is, carry earplus with you to avoid hearing damage!
# Posted on March 3rd 2008 by Pete Goehring
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Here’s something I’ve recently noticed about my pitch perception. When I’m commuting, I often wear ear plugs and crank up the audio volume to defeat the road noise. Last week, while listening to fiddle music, I removed the ear plugs (after turning down the volume!) and noticed that the pitch of the fiddle seemed to go very slightly sharp. I’ve experimented a few more times and it seems to be a real effect. I haven’t researched the question, but I suspect the ear plugs are filtering out some high frequencies that contribute to the perception of a slightly higher fundamental pitch.
Anybody familiar with this?
# Posted on March 3rd 2008 by Bob himself
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Dear Bob, Yes, I know this effect, and I forget the mechanics, But: my college acoustics of music course said it is unavoidable in all of us: louder sounds of the same frequency always sound sharper.
# Posted on March 6th 2008 by Pete Goehring
Re: Intonation; Position or ear?
Louder sounds sharper? I wasn’t aware of that, but I can believe it. But I’m wearing ear plugs for the loud music and turning down the volume before I remove the plugs. Both samples, to my ears, are at about the same db level, yet without the earplugs it sounds sharper.
# Posted on March 6th 2008 by Bob himself