Just a note that the banjo, being so loud can put the rhythm off if it not tight. So.... practice your tunes with a metronome, note per click. nail those notes dead on.Also those triplets,
12trip-a-let 4
12 trip-a-let , trip-a-let.
etc
My husband has done that with the mandolin when he started to learn ITM, and now he needs to break that "perfect" rhythm, IMO, because it is TOO steady. I think live playing, with other people, is rarely metronomically correct. I believe it involves the careful placement of notes through listening to the other players and "feel." The same was true in my orchestral experience, in many cases.
I've come across those players that stick out like a sore thumb because of their rhythmic rigidity, but claim to be the "correct" player because they used a metronome.
I think metronomes have their place. I had one that sat on the piano, an old wind-up onen. I 've tried electronic little ones, but could never stand practicing with the darn things. I've used a click track when recording, but that was recording tracks separately and layering them over one another, but still had more success with just listening to the music.
As far as other helpful banjo hints...
now I'm suspecting this was all just a joke...
not unfortunate I have my ways of keeping things precise but I did notice a particular banjo player who would throw others off when he started up....
The metronome is a starting point. once the dot is nailed then you can learn to play ahead of the beat, or behind it for different feels. You can dot the rhythm and numerous other little tricks. but first, as with all instruments, you need to have the rhythm.
I would in fact also like to point out the advantages of a nome to concertina and other box players. With the finger stuff they/you use it can be hard to really create a precise rhythm. Perhaps actually training your self to tap your fingers and create rhythm like that without even the box might be an idea.
Rhythm is a separate issue to the notes.
Even tapping your foot to a metronome is a tricky feat to nail a beat precisely requires a standardisation of movement, bringing your foot off the floor the same distance each time, tip and heal, double foot triplets, left right . etc
Hmm wyogal, I certainly understand rubato and stuff but with dance music such as this there is little leeway for scrappy rhythm. Just a point but you will realise that modern dance music is extremely metronomic! this is no disadvantage for the dancers. No life in that electronic beat fair enough but a dancer simply cant adjust to a scrappy rhythm.
Dancers love my playing simply because they can rely on it, trust it, I can sense micro deviations from 'correct' rhythm. sure there is ebb and flow but this is above and beyond the metronome.
''I think live playing, with other people, is rarely metronomically correct''
Why? are you not perhaps making excuses for a number of scrappy players all supporting each others poor rhythm?
Just asking! perhaps this player you mention is playing correctly and you are not? worth considering?
"Dancers love my playing simply because they can rely on it, trust it, I can sense micro deviations from 'correct' rhythm. sure there is ebb and flow but this is above and beyond the metronome."
Are you playing for yourself and the sake of making music or for the dancers though?
The thing is so many people dont. and consequently have poor to atrocious rhythm.
As it happens prodigal son, I session sometimes four times weekly in east and west Clare, and Galway .I also get called to gig in county Cork occasionally.. you?
Anyone who reckons a banjo is 'so loud' and advises using a metronome and who brags about all the instruments he plays and all the sessions he attends and all the gigs demanding his appearance needs to take a reality check not me.
I cant see any sessions that youve recommended so where do you play?
Ive plenty I could 'brag' about. But I dont. we are here discussing ITM, the fact that I play 1 or 10 instruments is relevant. I have yet to see a relevant post from you. So are you suggesting the banjo is not a loud session instrument? you saying that you 'dont' need or use a metronome?
Tell you where I play? Ha. if someone demonstrates over a period of time their integrity, experiance and general good nature I will happily invite them, but I certainly am not putting that out on an open forum ! besides the lads would kill me if I did!...
If I said I was overweight, 5'9'' balding and male would that be 'bragging'? so I say I am 5'9'' balding and overweight and I play a rake of instruments, and that is?
totally agree with jig, i only started practicing with a metronome over the last couple of months and my rhythm has improved a huge amount, i'd highly recommend practicing with a metronome or drum machine, for any musician, really makes a big difference.
This is supposed to be a sharing board. It seems to me that all you do is 'share' your ideas and expect everybody else to accept them.
If you really believe that banjo is a loud session instrument then tht probablu says something aboout your hearing..
This site is called The Session. Dont you think its a little odd that youre not prepared to tell us which sessions you actually play or put up there details for others to share?
yeah poldebrun, if people could even learn to tap their foot in time it might help! as it is, using a metronome badly can cause problems. If its set to click every 4 or 8 notes in a reel for eg then 3or7 of those respectively, could be wrongly placed and 1 about right!
And heavan forbid you put the metronome on and then ignore it !" I have seen it happen.
playing with ametronome is useful for all instruments,so is playing along with recordings.
I play with a metronome,and alternate it with playing without,so every other time.I use it
a common failing for musicians is to speed up between an a part and a turn,playing with a metronome sorts this out.Dick Miles
yea, note per click is the way to make sure each individual note has the right duration also good to practice stuff on the backbeat, and try and switch back and forth and so on, its only when i started practicing with a metronome that i realised how out of time and messy my playing was.
jig one person is enough for me. My details are now up and shoud have been sonner. Im still waiting for your own session suggestions. By the ways do you people actually take tyour metronames to sessions?
Well thats a lot of fiddlin, so why is it that you have'the boys' in your tune book? just curious....
No, of course we dont take a metronome to sessions duh.. ! why would we need to? I allready know my timing is on top of the beat...
so thats O'Hanlons in south Armagh..... hmm, pretty specific...
Well, I think I may well go for 'the White House' in Kilcrohan for easter.... . before that it will be paddies day in San Sebastian perhaps...
1;All volume is relative. So compared to the fiddle, mandolin, mandola, flute , etc it is. Compared to the box and pipes it is reasonably well balanced.
2; Banjaxed?
3If you ask that question you could do with finding out.
You say you played forty years and you are a master. yet you have harvest home in your tune book and dont even know why your timing should be spot on? all very strange.
Ben, have you tried it? your another master of 40yrs though I am sure you wouldnt be so full of yourself to describe yourself as that.
''Total rubbish. Way to completely miss the rhythm. Forever.'';
hmm, you seem very sure.... can you enumerate on this proposition, Why?
Good , bye.
Thats ok. cos your spelling is worse than mine and thats saying something.
If you use fire fox you can download an automatic spell check....
Oh I know what banjaxed means, its your usage of it that baffled me.....
Actually, it's very difficult to "enumerate" on why it's daft to practice "one note per click" to a metronome, 'cos there's only one point: it's rubbish in that it doesn't take into account *any* of the rhythm of Irish music ... or most other music, for that matter. Anyhow, let's try to "enumerate":
1 Hornpipes
Well, obviously you couldn't practice hornpipes one note per click, because some of the notes are long and some are short (leaving aside the triplets and other things that happen in hornpipes);
2 Reels
Pretty much as for hornpipes above. One note per click would completely even out the rhythm and leave it sounding like a typewriter rather than any kind of music
3 Jigs (you'd think he'd get *this* one right)
The 6 notes in a bar in jigs are almost all a different length from each other. How are you going to set a metronome to "one note per click"?
4 Polkas
Different number of notes depending on what part of the bar you're in. (Actually, different number of notes depending on what part of the *bar* [read, pub] you're in too, probably )
I could go on enumerating, about how you have to be careful about using the metronome at all, about how some players do sound 'metronomic' and therefore produce a 'dead' sound, etc etc ... but i think the above is probably enough numbers for now ...
Ben, this is a banjo page, you seem to know little about playing the banjo, you do play the banjo? all notes are about the same length, its how you space them that counts. So ;
1 Hornpipes; Unless you place a rest 'Before' the note, each note will start at the same place right? however long or short it is. However I would suggest 4clicks a bar is fine.
2 Reels. The Idea 'is' to even out the rhythm. once it is even you are free to do what you like with it. Because you choose to, not because you cant do anything else. Once 1/8th per click is sorted, then 1/4per click, then perhaps 1.2 per click then thats it. its done.
3 The note in a jig are only different lengths if you choose to play them as such. As it happens , on a banjo you dont have much choice, you can lilt the rhythm but the notes generally stay the same length. So once each note is on top of the click, you build in your swing, as you choose,
Once the tune is nailed note per click then I suggest triplet per click. then once that is accomplished forget the nome. relax and enjoy the flow.
Liz Doherty is a fiddler who is someone I would describe as metronomic. precise driving rhythm, Frankie Gavin is another.
Remember this is just a drill to sharpen up rhythm the swing is something that is above the driving rhythm, not instead of it.
jig, I give you ten out of ten for being a master at being exasperating....talk to you about my musicianship ? Why ?
I'd talk to anyone else on this site, but I've tried haveing a sensible discussion with you maybe a dozen times ? And I've watched many others making the same attempt. Anything subtle of nuanced goes straight over your head, and your responses are usually condescending and patronising if not downright insulting. You talk down to everyone because you are convinced you're right and we all need you to instruct us, notwithstanding there's people on this site who know a lot more about everything than you do.
I might as well go and talk to the sheep in the field about banjo playing, at least I wouldn't find that so frustrating.
Honestly, I'm in a cheerful, amiable mood, but when I read "Dancers love my playing simply because they can rely on it, trust it, I can sense micro deviations from 'correct' rhythm. " I just give up on you. It's like trying to talk about rainbows to someone blind from birth. Why don't you just take a drum machine to the gig ? The the dancers won't have to put their trust in jig and his infallible sense....man, you're in need of a bit of humility....
It's none of your business, but seeing as you asked, I've had various banjos, playing various styles of music for about 40 years plus or minus. I've forgotten and I don't care. At the moment I have Johannes Bonefaas 5 string with a hairy goatskin, cost about £2000, and a fretless tenor made about 1880, forget the maker, cost about £200.
If I was playing with other people I'd feel the rhythm and go with that, and if it was a dance, I'd tune into the vibe of the dancers. As for putting a note on top of each click of the metronome, that horrifies me. What thrills me about this music is how players put life and expression into it, the human factor that makes it different from computer generated muzak. If it sounds and feels good, I really don't care about what the metronome says.
I read about someone who analyzed Charlie Parker's music on computer. He never EVER played a note exactly on the beat. It was always a little in front, a little behind, a little sharp a little flat. He was expressing himself ! I read the same about Matt Malloy. If you slow him down, like slowing down bird song, and look at the structure, every note has something done to it. That's what makes it exciting.
I've said it to you before, your attitude toward teaching is like painting by numbers. It takes out the fun, the creativity, the sparkle. This whole philosophy of yours is cobblers in my opinion.
I recall an exercise/game a jazz guitar teacher of mine taught me a few years ago, relating to how fluid the positioning of beats should be, on the grounds that I always moved the beat around a bit and it was never in the same place twice. As he said, it sounded fine, but he wanted to know whether it was intentional or not. What he had me do was clap along to a metronome: if you can hear the click you aren't keeping time. He made me do this until I solved the problem (cos my time keeping wasn't right). His point was that, whilst I never SHOULD play like that, it's very important that I COULD play like that - because it meant that I could keep time and I wasn't slowing down or speeding up.
Jig's point might be that it is important for trad musicians to be able to place the first beat of each bar at a constant interval (and if playing for dancing, unless for people who's legs are different lengths, the down beats). I have to admit though, I sometimes wonder if there are people out there who justify their inability to hold a constant tempo on the grounds that the best players have learnt how to vary theirs .....
Jigs 116,Hornpipes147.reels 100 to 104,polkas 140.these are settings that ifind useful.they are of course not arbitrary but approximate,some jigs need to go slower for example,infact [imo]108 to 120,is fine .
the same goes for all types, Ihave given a middling speed.DickMiles
Yeah, Andy V, well, that's very similar to a point that Llig made a day or two back, that you should be able to play a tune *exactly* as passed down before you deem to mess with it, and not do (what I usually do !) start messing before you've learned it, and then claim it's 'your version'.
I think it might be useful for beginner musicians, whatever the instrument, to play around with a metronome, and think about rhythm and time signatures. It might be. But I'd think it was much more important to tap feet and feel rhythm. I mean, it's like that thing that black people said about white people (no offence intended to either) that all the best dance music comes out of black culture, because they *feel* the rhythm, whereas white people tend to be stiff and inhibited. Best lesson I know about rhythm is from Dwight Diller, on dvd. He's a fierce old fella on this stuff. He says you've got to play banjo with your whole body. You feel the beat with your whole body. It comes up out of your belly, not out of some ticking gadget.
And another thing. In dances, people don't keep the same rhythm all through. I mean, they can start of slow and stately and then get into the swing of it as they warm up. Sometimes it's good to gently speed up the rhythm so it hits a peak at just the right moment. Sometimes the people are a bit tired, want something to relax them again. IMHO, it's all about feel.
All that said, there's loads of players on most instruments who are FAR better than I am. I think I'm quite good on fingerstyle guitar, and on that I get the rhythm going with my thumb on the sixth string, and I usually hook into that with tapping my foot. But if i listen to music out of Africa, from Mali, say, my knowledge of rhythms is pitiful by comparisom with what some of those guys can do. Same goes for a lot of the Irish stuff i have on CD. That's why I'm here. Learning, learning, never an end to it...
''Dancers love my playing simply because they can rely on it, trust it, I can sense micro deviations from 'correct' rhythm.''
Your a funny fellah wolfbird, I state a fact, why do you find that troublesome? should i pretend otherwise? can you clap in time? or tap your foot in time? can you play with a metronome?
I am not suggesting we play our music like a metronome, heavan forbid. but what is your alternative suggestion for people who cant keep a phrase steady let alone a whole tune? can you? can you play solo for a set dance? on a banjo?
I vary the lilt and rhythm constantly, but in the back of my head I have a tapping beat. I trust it, other players trust it and the dancers trust it.
What have you got to say to convince me that somehow decades of practice and experiance are somehow wrong?.
But andy which best players? the best players in my book are dance musicians. players to dance to. they vary the phrasing the lilt, the swing but the beat is steady as a rock.
A metronome creates a rhythm. A 'boring' fair enough, but its a rhythm. I am constantly amazed by the number of drummers who cant keep a steady beat, let alone tune players . Drummers! its their job fer crying out loud!
One problem with not having a steady beat when playing at a slow practice speed is that when it gets to pace, its all over the place. there is no 'space' to fit all the notes. Freedom in rhythm comes from mastery of rhythm. If you cant even play with a metronome you are far from mastering rhythm.
Rhythm, is repetition of pattern it may be long or short.
Timing is all about finding the space within a rhythm. the gap's and empty spaces, a zen like appreciation of organic natural 'flow' or 'is-ness'
What has a metronome to do with this?
I suggest that it is a way in. not the only way undoubtedly, but for rhythmically challenged people, a way.
Personally, I try to do my metronome exercise every other week or so, I soon find out whether I have a tendency to speed up or slow down, and if I'm tending one way or the other I'll keep doing it for a few days till I'm sorted. Metronome practice isn't about 'feeling a rhythm' or whatever, it's simply about being able to hear a tempo and tap your foot / clap your hands along in without either speeding up or slowing down. It's an essential skill if you play with other people. Nothing to do with always playing jigs at a certain tempo, or imparting rhythm to anything. Tap your foot with abandon, but know that foot is hitting the floor at equal intervals.
It always strikes me as really weird how people always moan about people who play out of time, or speed up their favourite sets with reckless (and often feckless) abandon; but suggest there might be a simple solution involving technology or anything relating for formal music training and face wrath, delivered in spades......
Practicing with a metronome can help stabilize any tendencies one might have to totally fall "off" the rhythm. It has helped me identify that I do tend to slow down at certain points of a tune.
It's just a learning aide. Using it is one possible way to evaluate your playing and work toward correcting "weaknesses." Same thing with checking your pitch against notes on an electronic tuner occasionally. It you know which notes (thirds) will be off on the tuner -- you can take that into consideration.
Playing along with recordings is a great aid. All of these things are helpful.
Few if any people are going to be perfect. Working with these "mechanistic" aids can help you, MAYBE, move a little closer to a very solid rhythm or very "close" pitch.
You know what -- I'm for using ANYTHING that will help me --- and little by little, I have found that using a mix of all the different things together has helped a great deal.
As for whether the banjo is loud or not -- my two cents -- in the hands of most good banjo players, the banjo is not what I'd call a "wall-flower" instrument." It's generally fairly loud, but it doesn't have to be overbearingly loud....that can depend on the player too........but the same is true of the button accordian. It can be played LOUDLY -- or it can be played a little less loudly and with more nuance. I like it better the second way by far.
Well, Andy V and Fid42, I for one accept that there may be a place for practising with a metronome. However, setting the thing at "note per beat" is sheer lunacy, and typical of the idiocy that is - and has always been since his first appearance here as tradpiper - the norm from jig.
I use the metronome in the following way, CLICK where you tap the foot,
for jigs thats every first and fourth beat,for reels first and third beat.Dick Miles
Assuming you mean for reels first and third *crotchet*, and for jigs first and fourth *quaver* then I agree that that can be helpful. (I only mention this because I think of both jigs and reels as having only two beats per bar in any case. But we've had that discussion before.)
Gentles:
One or two of the entries above has me considering whether semantics is again a factor in some of the controversy/friction I am reading. BTW, interesting thread (tips his hat.)
Perhaps "right on the beat" can also refer to "right on the tempo"?
RHYTHM
3. Music
a. The pattern of musical movement through time.
b. A specific kind of such a pattern, formed by a series of notes differing in duration and stress: a waltz rhythm.
c. A group of instruments supplying the rhythm in a band.
TEMPO - (music) the speed at which a composition is to be played
When I am playing fiddle, there are the usual patterns of emphasis (accent) and variance of the spaces between the notes. As better heads than mine here have often stated, mechanically playing the melody without the swing would be a cold and soulless piece of work, eh?
I do not htink anyone here really means to advocate playing banjo (or anythingwlse, for that matter) like you are a sewing machine, up-and-down-and-up-and-down like a robot.
I use a metronome to keep the tempo, slow or fast, and gague my control over some bad habits of mine - speeding up in places, and "breezing through" certain parts of a tune. The metronome has helped me to more acurately assess where these habits are manifesting themselves in my playing.
Benhall: Perhaps playing at note per beat as an exercise may help some players who do not yet have the control to place a note anywhere they want to in the structure of a tune?
Just speculating, and it does not mean I disagree with you or agree with Jig. I do not reckon it would help me much, but maybe it is not lunacy for everyone.
Jig: with all due respect, sir -
IMHO, there is no way I am familiar with to say "They REALLY LOVE me" or "I am REALLY good" or "I REALLY KNOW this subject" and retain an appearance of humility and open-mindedness.
Just an observation, and best of luck, sir.
Ha-ving stea-dy rhy-thm is so ve-ry ne-ce-sa-ry that I prac-tice with my met-ro-nome at ev-ry op-por-tu-ni-ty
so at my sess-sion I'll be sure to be a good ex-am-ple for the oth-ers at the ta-ble and we'll ne-ver de-vi-ate from per-fect rhy-thm rhy-thm rhy-thm rhy-thm tick tick tick tick
As an exercise one note per beat - 4 ticks per bar for reel - certainly helps me over technical problems to do with playing the *instrument* (problems placing notes where I want them) but not much with the *music*. Not sure how practising playing one tick per step (so two ticks per bar for a reel) can be all that bad for dance music. Does it need more than one tick per bar to keep the tempo in check ?
See, "one note per beat" for a reel means 8 ticks per bar, as was very carefully explained by our illustrious self-proclaimed expert, jig, in one of his posts above.
I am a drummer,and I would have used the metronome as described, 1/8 th note for each tick . Also I/16th, dotted 1/4 notes, etc
As a drummer, this would be pretty standard to get the quaver or 1/8th notes precisely in place for double strokes, paradiddles and other techniques such as 1/8th note flams. I wonder if those arguing against this practice have tried it or are simply arguing from a position of ignorance?
Tradpiper, oops! I meant to say HardtoPinDown, Argh, sorry JIG. I meant JIG. I am sure you posted your original comments truly believing you were just being helpful. Unfortunately, as with your other posts in the past regarding metronomes, tempos and your exhaustive knowledge of music, your style comes across rather condescendingly. I don't think you do it intentionally - I only point it out so that in the future, you won't be so surprised when others flare up so quickly at your distinctive "pearls" of wisdom.
Has anyobody else re-read this thread? Yet another surreal effect on a jig-inspired thread ...
Meanwhile, let's not forget that it was jig's thread and, as he said, a banjo thread. Bearing that in mind, I think it is all put into context by jig's phrase:
"all notes are about the same length, its how you space them that counts"
I use the metronome in my banjo practice. I set the speed to match what would, in a session, be my tapping foot.
Although I do not practice "tunes" to a metronome anymore, I do other exercises that I find helpful.:
1. During scales, I try to maintain a loose wrist, an even tone, and even rhythm. I will increase the speed of the metronome only to the extent that I remain loose and even-toned. One metronome speed setting can be set for alternation between 4/4 and 6/8. Once warmed up, I may change my picking dynamic to emphasize just the "up" stroke, in part to try to stay awake through practice and mainly to build strength.
2. I do phrases and ornaments, with the metronome beats serving as markers with space between them in which I can work on intentional variation in rhythm and dynamics between the markers.
The first practice figure mentioned by Jig would be a good exercise for strength and dexterity because it initiates triplets from both the up and down strokes. Good for any banjo player and especially valuable for new students.
I use the metronome in the following way, CLICK where you tap the foot,
for jigs thats every first and fourth beat,for reels first and third beat.Dick Miles
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by dickens
Re: banjo and metronome
Assuming you mean for reels first and third *crotchet*, and for jigs first and fourth *quaver* then I agree that that can be helpful. (I only mention this because I think of both jigs and reels as having only two beats per bar in any case. But we've had that discussion before.)
yes thats what I mean.Dick Miles
Quite simply, 8 clicks per bar of a reel is a waste as the second eighth note in a group in a reel stylistically is often not in time. If it's always perfectly in time esp. on banjo you'll sound like MIDI
Wow. I leave the board for a little while and look what happens.
So nice of you to judge others from afar and behind your screen, Jig. Not. I really don't need to discuss any more of the finer points of the players in the session that I attend, and there are many, many fine points. When I say that playing metronmically 'correct" doesn't sound right, it's too mechanical, it's not because I have no sense of rhythm or that the players in the session have no sense of rhythm. It's because I can tell the difference between music that is lilting, live, and music that is confined to the just playing notes. It's not because I am ignorant of where the beat is.
This thread wasn't a joke, it was a wind-up. I'd say there are more insults than helpful suggestions when this type of thing occurs. I really, really don't care what you have to say about this, Jig, because I know that it will be insulting, condescending, and otherwise argumentative because that, I suspect, has been your point all along.
Quite simply, 8 clicks per bar of a reel is a waste as the second eighth note in a group in a reel stylistically is often not in time. If it's always perfectly in time esp. on banjo you'll sound like MIDI.
I was suggesting 4clicks,and tempos 100 TO105.
reels are not always dotted,its a matter of taste and used to vary from area to area.
the metronome is just a tool to help avoid speeding up between different parts of the tune,it is of course mechanical.
I think the idea of it is to use it to prevent speeding up,when you become used to it youcan start taking liberties,still playing in time, but putting lilt in to it.
,and thus avoiding sounding mechanical.
I have found a click track very useful tool for recording,particularly if a musician is not always available to play live,they can dub a track on afterwards using a metronome setting for a click track,a good musician can use this tool,while stil listening to the original player,and adjusting to the lilt of the original musician,and it can still sound as if the two are playing together live.
in the end its about listening to the other musician,and adjusting .Dick Miles
wyogal, if the discussion seems incoherent that is because the thread has been heavily edited, and comments considered unacceptable by Jeremy have been deleted.
I was getting ready for a festival this past weekend. I had a stepdancer from the local school who was going to do a slip jig and a reel while I played for her as part of my show at the festival. We practiced once, I took down the beats per minute, and then the whistler and I tried to play along to a metronome set to the bpm's that we thought the dancer wanted.
That lasted about 5 minutes before I threw the thing across the room. What a nightmare. It totally screwed me up.
Saturday comes, time for the show. I fiddle, I holler songs, it's the end and up comes our wee stepdancer. We launch into the slip jig, everything is great, clap clap clap. We launch into the reel, she's happy, the crowd's happy, clap clap clap.
Still have no idea what that metronome was for. If we had tied ourselves to it we'd still be there in my kitchen, trying to figure it out as opposed to just playing the @#$# tune already.
what produces emphasis when playing the banjo, is the pick. greater Emphasis can[ imo]be obtained with a down pick,and also with double stopping[again imo easier on a down].
therefore pick direction is essential for producing lilt or emphasis,the metronome is only important for keeping a steady pace.
SWFL so you are unable to play with a metronome.and you were able to play perfectly well without one,this proves nothing apart from the fact you probably have agood sense of rhythym and dont need one any way.
should you ever have to record and work to a,click track,you probably wont be able to do it[perhaps that doesnt matter to you]well ,thats fair enough.
however some of the bad musicians I have encountered at sessions,who consistently speed up between parts,would benefit from the discipline of a metronome.Dick Miles
banjo and metronome
banjo and metronome
Just a note that the banjo, being so loud can put the rhythm off if it not tight. So.... practice your tunes with a metronome, note per click. nail those notes dead on.Also those triplets,
12trip-a-let 4
12 trip-a-let , trip-a-let.
etc
Thats it folks. Any other helpfull banjo hints?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
Don't overdo it
Metronomic banjo can get a bit mechanical sounding over the course of an evening
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by Bren
Re: banjo and metronome
Did something unfortunate happen at your session last night Jig?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: banjo and metronome
My husband has done that with the mandolin when he started to learn ITM, and now he needs to break that "perfect" rhythm, IMO, because it is TOO steady. I think live playing, with other people, is rarely metronomically correct. I believe it involves the careful placement of notes through listening to the other players and "feel." The same was true in my orchestral experience, in many cases.
I've come across those players that stick out like a sore thumb because of their rhythmic rigidity, but claim to be the "correct" player because they used a metronome.
I think metronomes have their place. I had one that sat on the piano, an old wind-up onen. I 've tried electronic little ones, but could never stand practicing with the darn things. I've used a click track when recording, but that was recording tracks separately and layering them over one another, but still had more success with just listening to the music.
As far as other helpful banjo hints...
now I'm suspecting this was all just a joke...
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by wyogal
Re: banjo and metronome
not unfortunate
I have my ways of keeping things precise 
but I did notice a particular banjo player who would throw others off when he started up....
The metronome is a starting point. once the dot is nailed then you can learn to play ahead of the beat, or behind it for different feels. You can dot the rhythm and numerous other little tricks. but first, as with all instruments, you need to have the rhythm.
I would in fact also like to point out the advantages of a nome to concertina and other box players. With the finger stuff they/you use it can be hard to really create a precise rhythm. Perhaps actually training your self to tap your fingers and create rhythm like that without even the box might be an idea.
Rhythm is a separate issue to the notes.
Even tapping your foot to a metronome is a tricky feat
to nail a beat precisely requires a standardisation of movement, bringing your foot off the floor the same distance each time, tip and heal, double foot triplets, left right . etc
Enjoy.
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
Hmm wyogal, I certainly understand rubato and stuff but with dance music such as this there is little leeway for scrappy rhythm. Just a point but you will realise that modern dance music is extremely metronomic! this is no disadvantage for the dancers. No life in that electronic beat fair enough but a dancer simply cant adjust to a scrappy rhythm.
Dancers love my playing simply because they can rely on it, trust it, I can sense micro deviations from 'correct' rhythm. sure there is ebb and flow but this is above and beyond the metronome.
''I think live playing, with other people, is rarely metronomically correct''
Why? are you not perhaps making excuses for a number of scrappy players all supporting each others poor rhythm?
Just asking! perhaps this player you mention is playing correctly and you are not? worth considering?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
I see - so really your main point is, everyone regardless of their instrument can benefit by practicing with a metronome. Check.
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: banjo and metronome
note per click .... and with bounce/ life
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
"Dancers love my playing simply because they can rely on it, trust it, I can sense micro deviations from 'correct' rhythm. sure there is ebb and flow but this is above and beyond the metronome."
Are you playing for yourself and the sake of making music or for the dancers though?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by rob_handel
Re: banjo and metronome
Can he be Kevin Burke?!!
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by nicholas
Re: banjo and metronome
Can he be Chuck Norris?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by Ramiro
Re: banjo and metronome
rob, yes. both.
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
The thing is so many people dont. and consequently have poor to atrocious rhythm.
As it happens prodigal son, I session sometimes four times weekly in east and west Clare, and Galway .I also get called to gig in county Cork occasionally.. you?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
Anyone who reckons a banjo is 'so loud' and advises using a metronome and who brags about all the instruments he plays and all the sessions he attends and all the gigs demanding his appearance needs to take a reality check not me.
I cant see any sessions that youve recommended so where do you play?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by The Prodigal
Re: banjo and metronome
Ive plenty I could 'brag' about. But I dont. we are here discussing ITM, the fact that I play 1 or 10 instruments is relevant. I have yet to see a relevant post from you. So are you suggesting the banjo is not a loud session instrument? you saying that you 'dont' need or use a metronome?
Tell you where I play? Ha. if someone demonstrates over a period of time their integrity, experiance and general good nature I will happily invite them, but I certainly am not putting that out on an open forum ! besides the lads would kill me if I did!...
If I said I was overweight, 5'9'' balding and male would that be 'bragging'? so I say I am 5'9'' balding and overweight and I play a rake of instruments, and that is?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
totally agree with jig, i only started practicing with a metronome over the last couple of months and my rhythm has improved a huge amount, i'd highly recommend practicing with a metronome or drum machine, for any musician, really makes a big difference.
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by poldebrun
Re: banjo and metronome
This is supposed to be a sharing board. It seems to me that all you do is 'share' your ideas and expect everybody else to accept them.
If you really believe that banjo is a loud session instrument then tht probablu says something aboout your hearing..
This site is called The Session. Dont you think its a little odd that youre not prepared to tell us which sessions you actually play or put up there details for others to share?
I think you might be all mouth nd trousers.
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by The Prodigal
Re: banjo and metronome
yeah poldebrun, if people could even learn to tap their foot in time it might help! as it is, using a metronome badly can cause problems. If its set to click every 4 or 8 notes in a reel for eg then 3or7 of those respectively, could be wrongly placed and 1 about right!
And heavan forbid you put the metronome on and then ignore it !" I have seen it happen.
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
playing with ametronome is useful for all instruments,so is playing along with recordings.
I play with a metronome,and alternate it with playing without,so every other time.I use it
a common failing for musicians is to speed up between an a part and a turn,playing with a metronome sorts this out.Dick Miles
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: banjo and metronome
yea, note per click is the way to make sure each individual note has the right duration also good to practice stuff on the backbeat, and try and switch back and forth and so on, its only when i started practicing with a metronome that i realised how out of time and messy my playing was.
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by poldebrun
Re: banjo and metronome
jig one person is enough for me. My details are now up and shoud have been sonner. Im still waiting for your own session suggestions. By the ways do you people actually take tyour metronames to sessions?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by The Prodigal
Re: banjo and metronome
Well thats a lot of fiddlin, so why is it that you have'the boys' in your tune book? just curious....
No, of course we dont take a metronome to sessions duh.. ! why would we need to? I allready know my timing is on top of the beat...
so thats O'Hanlons in south Armagh..... hmm, pretty specific...
Well, I think I may well go for 'the White House' in Kilcrohan for easter.... . before that it will be paddies day in San Sebastian perhaps...
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
1 the banjo is not a loud instrment
2 anybody who thinks that picking notes in time to a metrnmome is good is banjaxed
3 why should the notes be dead on?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by The Prodigal
Re: banjo and metronome
Before I say my main point, I do actually think some practice with a metronome can be helpful ...
But "note per click" !!!?!
Total rubbish. Way to completely miss the rhythm. Forever.
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
1;All volume is relative. So compared to the fiddle, mandolin, mandola, flute , etc it is. Compared to the box and pipes it is reasonably well balanced.
2; Banjaxed?
3If you ask that question you could do with finding out.
You say you played forty years and you are a master. yet you have harvest home in your tune book and dont even know why your timing should be spot on? all very strange.
Ben, have you tried it? your another master of 40yrs though I am sure you wouldnt be so full of yourself to describe yourself as that.
''Total rubbish. Way to completely miss the rhythm. Forever.'';
hmm, you seem very sure.... can you enumerate on this proposition, Why?
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
Good , bye.
Thats ok. cos your spelling is worse than mine and thats saying something.
If you use fire fox you can download an automatic spell check....
Oh I know what banjaxed means, its your usage of it that baffled me.....
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
Actually, it's very difficult to "enumerate" on why it's daft to practice "one note per click" to a metronome, 'cos there's only one point: it's rubbish in that it doesn't take into account *any* of the rhythm of Irish music ... or most other music, for that matter. Anyhow, let's try to "enumerate":
1 Hornpipes
Well, obviously you couldn't practice hornpipes one note per click, because some of the notes are long and some are short (leaving aside the triplets and other things that happen in hornpipes);
2 Reels
Pretty much as for hornpipes above. One note per click would completely even out the rhythm and leave it sounding like a typewriter rather than any kind of music
3 Jigs (you'd think he'd get *this* one right)
The 6 notes in a bar in jigs are almost all a different length from each other. How are you going to set a metronome to "one note per click"?
4 Polkas
Different number of notes depending on what part of the bar you're in. (Actually, different number of notes depending on what part of the *bar* [read, pub] you're in too, probably
)
I could go on enumerating, about how you have to be careful about using the metronome at all, about how some players do sound 'metronomic' and therefore produce a 'dead' sound, etc etc ... but i think the above is probably enough numbers for now ...
# Posted on February 23rd 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
Ben, this is a banjo page, you seem to know little about playing the banjo, you do play the banjo? all notes are about the same length, its how you space them that counts. So ;
1 Hornpipes; Unless you place a rest 'Before' the note, each note will start at the same place right? however long or short it is. However I would suggest 4clicks a bar is fine.
2 Reels. The Idea 'is' to even out the rhythm. once it is even you are free to do what you like with it. Because you choose to, not because you cant do anything else. Once 1/8th per click is sorted, then 1/4per click, then perhaps 1.2 per click then thats it. its done.
3 The note in a jig are only different lengths if you choose to play them as such. As it happens , on a banjo you dont have much choice, you can lilt the rhythm but the notes generally stay the same length. So once each note is on top of the click, you build in your swing, as you choose,
Once the tune is nailed note per click then I suggest triplet per click. then once that is accomplished forget the nome. relax and enjoy the flow.
Liz Doherty is a fiddler who is someone I would describe as metronomic. precise driving rhythm, Frankie Gavin is another.
Remember this is just a drill to sharpen up rhythm the swing is something that is above the driving rhythm, not instead of it.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
Yes. That's the best one, Michael. Though "Liz Doherty is a fiddler who is someone I would describe as metronomic" is pretty good, don't you think?
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
... and so the cross posts go on ...
N E way ...
I now have this vision of Liz Doherty sitting in the corner of some pub, gently ticking away to herself.
...tick
...tick
...tick
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
... unless she's ticking to a hornpipe, of course, when presumably she would be going:
... tickty
... tickty
... tickty
... tickty
[she's a versatile metronome]
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
jig, I give you ten out of ten for being a master at being exasperating....talk to you about my musicianship ? Why ?
I'd talk to anyone else on this site, but I've tried haveing a sensible discussion with you maybe a dozen times ? And I've watched many others making the same attempt. Anything subtle of nuanced goes straight over your head, and your responses are usually condescending and patronising if not downright insulting. You talk down to everyone because you are convinced you're right and we all need you to instruct us, notwithstanding there's people on this site who know a lot more about everything than you do.
I might as well go and talk to the sheep in the field about banjo playing, at least I wouldn't find that so frustrating.
Honestly, I'm in a cheerful, amiable mood, but when I read "Dancers love my playing simply because they can rely on it, trust it, I can sense micro deviations from 'correct' rhythm. " I just give up on you. It's like trying to talk about rainbows to someone blind from birth. Why don't you just take a drum machine to the gig ? The the dancers won't have to put their trust in jig and his infallible sense....man, you're in need of a bit of humility....
It's none of your business, but seeing as you asked, I've had various banjos, playing various styles of music for about 40 years plus or minus. I've forgotten and I don't care. At the moment I have Johannes Bonefaas 5 string with a hairy goatskin, cost about £2000, and a fretless tenor made about 1880, forget the maker, cost about £200.
If I was playing with other people I'd feel the rhythm and go with that, and if it was a dance, I'd tune into the vibe of the dancers. As for putting a note on top of each click of the metronome, that horrifies me. What thrills me about this music is how players put life and expression into it, the human factor that makes it different from computer generated muzak. If it sounds and feels good, I really don't care about what the metronome says.
I read about someone who analyzed Charlie Parker's music on computer. He never EVER played a note exactly on the beat. It was always a little in front, a little behind, a little sharp a little flat. He was expressing himself ! I read the same about Matt Malloy. If you slow him down, like slowing down bird song, and look at the structure, every note has something done to it. That's what makes it exciting.
I've said it to you before, your attitude toward teaching is like painting by numbers. It takes out the fun, the creativity, the sparkle. This whole philosophy of yours is cobblers in my opinion.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: banjo and metronome
I recall an exercise/game a jazz guitar teacher of mine taught me a few years ago, relating to how fluid the positioning of beats should be, on the grounds that I always moved the beat around a bit and it was never in the same place twice. As he said, it sounded fine, but he wanted to know whether it was intentional or not. What he had me do was clap along to a metronome: if you can hear the click you aren't keeping time. He made me do this until I solved the problem (cos my time keeping wasn't right). His point was that, whilst I never SHOULD play like that, it's very important that I COULD play like that - because it meant that I could keep time and I wasn't slowing down or speeding up.
Jig's point might be that it is important for trad musicians to be able to place the first beat of each bar at a constant interval (and if playing for dancing, unless for people who's legs are different lengths, the down beats). I have to admit though, I sometimes wonder if there are people out there who justify their inability to hold a constant tempo on the grounds that the best players have learnt how to vary theirs .....
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Andy V
Re: banjo and metronome
Jigs 116,Hornpipes147.reels 100 to 104,polkas 140.these are settings that ifind useful.they are of course not arbitrary but approximate,some jigs need to go slower for example,infact [imo]108 to 120,is fine .
the same goes for all types, Ihave given a middling speed.DickMiles
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: banjo and metronome
Yeah, Andy V, well, that's very similar to a point that Llig made a day or two back, that you should be able to play a tune *exactly* as passed down before you deem to mess with it, and not do (what I usually do !) start messing before you've learned it, and then claim it's 'your version'.
I think it might be useful for beginner musicians, whatever the instrument, to play around with a metronome, and think about rhythm and time signatures. It might be. But I'd think it was much more important to tap feet and feel rhythm. I mean, it's like that thing that black people said about white people (no offence intended to either) that all the best dance music comes out of black culture, because they *feel* the rhythm, whereas white people tend to be stiff and inhibited. Best lesson I know about rhythm is from Dwight Diller, on dvd. He's a fierce old fella on this stuff. He says you've got to play banjo with your whole body. You feel the beat with your whole body. It comes up out of your belly, not out of some ticking gadget.
And another thing. In dances, people don't keep the same rhythm all through. I mean, they can start of slow and stately and then get into the swing of it as they warm up. Sometimes it's good to gently speed up the rhythm so it hits a peak at just the right moment. Sometimes the people are a bit tired, want something to relax them again. IMHO, it's all about feel.
All that said, there's loads of players on most instruments who are FAR better than I am. I think I'm quite good on fingerstyle guitar, and on that I get the rhythm going with my thumb on the sixth string, and I usually hook into that with tapping my foot. But if i listen to music out of Africa, from Mali, say, my knowledge of rhythms is pitiful by comparisom with what some of those guys can do. Same goes for a lot of the Irish stuff i have on CD. That's why I'm here. Learning, learning, never an end to it...
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: banjo and metronome
''Dancers love my playing simply because they can rely on it, trust it, I can sense micro deviations from 'correct' rhythm.''
Your a funny fellah wolfbird, I state a fact, why do you find that troublesome? should i pretend otherwise? can you clap in time? or tap your foot in time? can you play with a metronome?
I am not suggesting we play our music like a metronome, heavan forbid. but what is your alternative suggestion for people who cant keep a phrase steady let alone a whole tune? can you? can you play solo for a set dance? on a banjo?
I vary the lilt and rhythm constantly, but in the back of my head I have a tapping beat. I trust it, other players trust it and the dancers trust it.
What have you got to say to convince me that somehow decades of practice and experiance are somehow wrong?.
But andy which best players? the best players in my book are dance musicians. players to dance to. they vary the phrasing the lilt, the swing but the beat is steady as a rock.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
play them as slow or as fast as you like.
Rhythm is different from a mechanical click-maker.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Brown Creeper
Re: banjo and metronome
Thats it folks. Any other helpful banjo hints?
listen to other musicians,and if you are playing for dancing watch the dancers.Dick Miles
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: banjo and metronome
A metronome creates a rhythm. A 'boring' fair enough, but its a rhythm. I am constantly amazed by the number of drummers who cant keep a steady beat, let alone tune players . Drummers! its their job fer crying out loud!
One problem with not having a steady beat when playing at a slow practice speed is that when it gets to pace, its all over the place. there is no 'space' to fit all the notes. Freedom in rhythm comes from mastery of rhythm. If you cant even play with a metronome you are far from mastering rhythm.
Rhythm, is repetition of pattern it may be long or short.
Timing is all about finding the space within a rhythm. the gap's and empty spaces, a zen like appreciation of organic natural 'flow' or 'is-ness'
What has a metronome to do with this?
I suggest that it is a way in. not the only way undoubtedly, but for rhythmically challenged people, a way.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
Here's a tip for the banjo player:
I like banjo. Come sit next to me. I've got tinnitus and long hair that covers my ears and partially obscures my hearing anyway.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by sbhikes
Re: banjo and metronome
Jig, a friendly word in your ear, mate.
Those ABC files. The way they come out of the player. That's not the way the tunes are really supposed to go....
Eno
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by bc_box_player
Re: banjo and metronome
Personally, I try to do my metronome exercise every other week or so, I soon find out whether I have a tendency to speed up or slow down, and if I'm tending one way or the other I'll keep doing it for a few days till I'm sorted. Metronome practice isn't about 'feeling a rhythm' or whatever, it's simply about being able to hear a tempo and tap your foot / clap your hands along in without either speeding up or slowing down. It's an essential skill if you play with other people. Nothing to do with always playing jigs at a certain tempo, or imparting rhythm to anything. Tap your foot with abandon, but know that foot is hitting the floor at equal intervals.
It always strikes me as really weird how people always moan about people who play out of time, or speed up their favourite sets with reckless (and often feckless) abandon; but suggest there might be a simple solution involving technology or anything relating for formal music training and face wrath, delivered in spades......
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Andy V
Re: banjo and metronome
i like to tap my foot.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: banjo and metronome
My metronome has a red flashing light, which makes feel like i'm being pulled over by the police. Maybe for "speeding".
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Bodhi
Re: banjo and metronome
Practicing with a metronome can help stabilize any tendencies one might have to totally fall "off" the rhythm. It has helped me identify that I do tend to slow down at certain points of a tune.
It's just a learning aide. Using it is one possible way to evaluate your playing and work toward correcting "weaknesses." Same thing with checking your pitch against notes on an electronic tuner occasionally. It you know which notes (thirds) will be off on the tuner -- you can take that into consideration.
Playing along with recordings is a great aid. All of these things are helpful.
Few if any people are going to be perfect. Working with these "mechanistic" aids can help you, MAYBE, move a little closer to a very solid rhythm or very "close" pitch.
You know what -- I'm for using ANYTHING that will help me --- and little by little, I have found that using a mix of all the different things together has helped a great deal.
As for whether the banjo is loud or not -- my two cents -- in the hands of most good banjo players, the banjo is not what I'd call a "wall-flower" instrument." It's generally fairly loud, but it doesn't have to be overbearingly loud....that can depend on the player too........but the same is true of the button accordian. It can be played LOUDLY -- or it can be played a little less loudly and with more nuance. I like it better the second way by far.
Linda
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Fid42
Re: banjo and metronome
Well, Andy V and Fid42, I for one accept that there may be a place for practising with a metronome. However, setting the thing at "note per beat" is sheer lunacy, and typical of the idiocy that is - and has always been since his first appearance here as tradpiper - the norm from jig.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
I use the metronome in the following way, CLICK where you tap the foot,
for jigs thats every first and fourth beat,for reels first and third beat.Dick Miles
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: banjo and metronome
Assuming you mean for reels first and third *crotchet*, and for jigs first and fourth *quaver* then I agree that that can be helpful. (I only mention this because I think of both jigs and reels as having only two beats per bar in any case. But we've had that discussion before.)
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
Unaccustomed as I am to public speaking, ahem --
Gentles:
One or two of the entries above has me considering whether semantics is again a factor in some of the controversy/friction I am reading. BTW, interesting thread (tips his hat.)
Perhaps "right on the beat" can also refer to "right on the tempo"?
RHYTHM
3. Music
a. The pattern of musical movement through time.
b. A specific kind of such a pattern, formed by a series of notes differing in duration and stress: a waltz rhythm.
c. A group of instruments supplying the rhythm in a band.
TEMPO - (music) the speed at which a composition is to be played
When I am playing fiddle, there are the usual patterns of emphasis (accent) and variance of the spaces between the notes. As better heads than mine here have often stated, mechanically playing the melody without the swing would be a cold and soulless piece of work, eh?
I do not htink anyone here really means to advocate playing banjo (or anythingwlse, for that matter) like you are a sewing machine, up-and-down-and-up-and-down like a robot.
I use a metronome to keep the tempo, slow or fast, and gague my control over some bad habits of mine - speeding up in places, and "breezing through" certain parts of a tune. The metronome has helped me to more acurately assess where these habits are manifesting themselves in my playing.
Benhall: Perhaps playing at note per beat as an exercise may help some players who do not yet have the control to place a note anywhere they want to in the structure of a tune?
Just speculating, and it does not mean I disagree with you or agree with Jig. I do not reckon it would help me much, but maybe it is not lunacy for everyone.
Jig: with all due respect, sir -
IMHO, there is no way I am familiar with to say "They REALLY LOVE me" or "I am REALLY good" or "I REALLY KNOW this subject" and retain an appearance of humility and open-mindedness.
Just an observation, and best of luck, sir.
Good day, all.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Rook
Re: banjo and metronome
Ha-ving stea-dy rhy-thm is so ve-ry ne-ce-sa-ry that I prac-tice with my met-ro-nome at ev-ry op-por-tu-ni-ty
so at my sess-sion I'll be sure to be a good ex-am-ple for the oth-ers at the ta-ble and we'll ne-ver de-vi-ate from per-fect rhy-thm rhy-thm rhy-thm rhy-thm tick tick tick tick
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Greg the Piano Tuner
Re: banjo and metronome
As an exercise one note per beat - 4 ticks per bar for reel - certainly helps me over technical problems to do with playing the *instrument* (problems placing notes where I want them) but not much with the *music*. Not sure how practising playing one tick per step (so two ticks per bar for a reel) can be all that bad for dance music. Does it need more than one tick per bar to keep the tempo in check ?
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by david_h
Re: banjo and metronome
See, "one note per beat" for a reel means 8 ticks per bar, as was very carefully explained by our illustrious self-proclaimed expert, jig, in one of his posts above.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
Well I suppose I might do that for a tricky bar or two.
But by then its getting a bit like scales and argeggios...
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by david_h
Re: banjo and metronome
I am a drummer,and I would have used the metronome as described, 1/8 th note for each tick . Also I/16th, dotted 1/4 notes, etc
As a drummer, this would be pretty standard to get the quaver or 1/8th notes precisely in place for double strokes, paradiddles and other techniques such as 1/8th note flams. I wonder if those arguing against this practice have tried it or are simply arguing from a position of ignorance?
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by jig
Re: banjo and metronome
Now here was me thinking was an intruder on a banjo page.
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by david_h
Re: banjo and metronome
thinking I was
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by david_h
Re: banjo and metronome
Tradpiper, oops! I meant to say HardtoPinDown, Argh, sorry JIG. I meant JIG. I am sure you posted your original comments truly believing you were just being helpful. Unfortunately, as with your other posts in the past regarding metronomes, tempos and your exhaustive knowledge of music, your style comes across rather condescendingly. I don't think you do it intentionally - I only point it out so that in the future, you won't be so surprised when others flare up so quickly at your distinctive "pearls" of wisdom.
Kind regards,
some of us...
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Jusa Nutter Eejit
Re: banjo and metronome
Has anyobody else re-read this thread? Yet another surreal effect on a jig-inspired thread ...
Meanwhile, let's not forget that it was jig's thread and, as he said, a banjo thread. Bearing that in mind, I think it is all put into context by jig's phrase:
"all notes are about the same length, its how you space them that counts"
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: banjo and metronome
I use the metronome in my banjo practice. I set the speed to match what would, in a session, be my tapping foot.
Although I do not practice "tunes" to a metronome anymore, I do other exercises that I find helpful.:
1. During scales, I try to maintain a loose wrist, an even tone, and even rhythm. I will increase the speed of the metronome only to the extent that I remain loose and even-toned. One metronome speed setting can be set for alternation between 4/4 and 6/8. Once warmed up, I may change my picking dynamic to emphasize just the "up" stroke, in part to try to stay awake through practice and mainly to build strength.
2. I do phrases and ornaments, with the metronome beats serving as markers with space between them in which I can work on intentional variation in rhythm and dynamics between the markers.
The first practice figure mentioned by Jig would be a good exercise for strength and dexterity because it initiates triplets from both the up and down strokes. Good for any banjo player and especially valuable for new students.
Barry
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by BarryM
Re: banjo and metronome
I use the metronome in the following way, CLICK where you tap the foot,
for jigs thats every first and fourth beat,for reels first and third beat.Dick Miles
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by dickens
Re: banjo and metronome
Assuming you mean for reels first and third *crotchet*, and for jigs first and fourth *quaver* then I agree that that can be helpful. (I only mention this because I think of both jigs and reels as having only two beats per bar in any case. But we've had that discussion before.)
yes thats what I mean.Dick Miles
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: banjo and metronome
I always practise the banjo with a metronome, just to see if I can beat it. I find it really good practice for speeding up a session!
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by Rob
Re: banjo and metronome
Quite simply, 8 clicks per bar of a reel is a waste as the second eighth note in a group in a reel stylistically is often not in time. If it's always perfectly in time esp. on banjo you'll sound like MIDI
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by reenactor
Re: banjo and metronome
Wow. I leave the board for a little while and look what happens.
So nice of you to judge others from afar and behind your screen, Jig. Not. I really don't need to discuss any more of the finer points of the players in the session that I attend, and there are many, many fine points. When I say that playing metronmically 'correct" doesn't sound right, it's too mechanical, it's not because I have no sense of rhythm or that the players in the session have no sense of rhythm. It's because I can tell the difference between music that is lilting, live, and music that is confined to the just playing notes. It's not because I am ignorant of where the beat is.
This thread wasn't a joke, it was a wind-up. I'd say there are more insults than helpful suggestions when this type of thing occurs. I really, really don't care what you have to say about this, Jig, because I know that it will be insulting, condescending, and otherwise argumentative because that, I suspect, has been your point all along.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by wyogal
Re: banjo and metronome
Quite simply, 8 clicks per bar of a reel is a waste as the second eighth note in a group in a reel stylistically is often not in time. If it's always perfectly in time esp. on banjo you'll sound like MIDI.
I was suggesting 4clicks,and tempos 100 TO105.
reels are not always dotted,its a matter of taste and used to vary from area to area.
the metronome is just a tool to help avoid speeding up between different parts of the tune,it is of course mechanical.
I think the idea of it is to use it to prevent speeding up,when you become used to it youcan start taking liberties,still playing in time, but putting lilt in to it.
,and thus avoiding sounding mechanical.
I have found a click track very useful tool for recording,particularly if a musician is not always available to play live,they can dub a track on afterwards using a metronome setting for a click track,a good musician can use this tool,while stil listening to the original player,and adjusting to the lilt of the original musician,and it can still sound as if the two are playing together live.
in the end its about listening to the other musician,and adjusting .Dick Miles
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: banjo and metronome
wyogal, if the discussion seems incoherent that is because the thread has been heavily edited, and comments considered unacceptable by Jeremy have been deleted.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by wolfbird
Re: banjo and metronome
I was getting ready for a festival this past weekend. I had a stepdancer from the local school who was going to do a slip jig and a reel while I played for her as part of my show at the festival. We practiced once, I took down the beats per minute, and then the whistler and I tried to play along to a metronome set to the bpm's that we thought the dancer wanted.
That lasted about 5 minutes before I threw the thing across the room. What a nightmare. It totally screwed me up.
Saturday comes, time for the show. I fiddle, I holler songs, it's the end and up comes our wee stepdancer. We launch into the slip jig, everything is great, clap clap clap. We launch into the reel, she's happy, the crowd's happy, clap clap clap.
Still have no idea what that metronome was for. If we had tied ourselves to it we'd still be there in my kitchen, trying to figure it out as opposed to just playing the @#$# tune already.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: banjo and metronome
what produces emphasis when playing the banjo, is the pick. greater Emphasis can[ imo]be obtained with a down pick,and also with double stopping[again imo easier on a down].
therefore pick direction is essential for producing lilt or emphasis,the metronome is only important for keeping a steady pace.
SWFL so you are unable to play with a metronome.and you were able to play perfectly well without one,this proves nothing apart from the fact you probably have agood sense of rhythym and dont need one any way.
should you ever have to record and work to a,click track,you probably wont be able to do it[perhaps that doesnt matter to you]well ,thats fair enough.
however some of the bad musicians I have encountered at sessions,who consistently speed up between parts,would benefit from the discipline of a metronome.Dick Miles
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by dickens metrognome