We started considering the Gypsy influences in Welsh music, in the past, as eventually suppressed by religion and society. That participation in this music ~ Ireland, Scotland, Wales, etc. ~ is sometimes passed over or neglected in the story telling. I'm curious to see what others know about the Gypsy presence and involvement in it all. I know a few things, and have worked with them some in Ireland, though not music wise, except to teach some children the music.
I was about to add an extension to the end of that discussion, and then thought it might be fun to surface with a new discusssion with that as the focus, Gypsies with respect to their input and invovlement in this music and dance. Here's the additions I'd originally planned from the previous discussion, starting with the full details of a book that was involved in last night's chat, information so anyone interested can try to chase up their own copy. Following that are a few extracts from another source, other sources given. More may follow, but for now I'm hoping others will come and contribute a tale or two, a source, a respect or consideration toward this group of people and their involvement in the traditions we mix on this site ~ Gypsies...
"Famous Fiddlers"
by the Reverend W. Meredith Morris
Edited, with introduction and notes, by Roy Saer
National Museum or Wales: Welsh Folk Museum, 1983
ISBN: 0-85485-061-9
Herstory passed over ~ Page 22, 1 paragraph:
Grassie Busville: the Gipsy Fiddler
['De Fidiculis' at this point includes a very lengthy romantic tale, melodromatically presented. Allegedly true, it is set in southern Pembrokshire and the West of England during the Thirties of the last century (1800s). 'Grassie Busville', like most of its personal and place names, was fictitiously coined by Meredith Morris himself. While 'Grassie' is supposed to have been yet another of Pembrokshire's wandering fiddlers, the tale reveals next to nothing about her minstrelling activities and is therefore omitted from the present publication.]
The Story of the Harp in Wales
Osian Ellis
University of Wales Press, 1991
ISBN: 0-7083-1104-0
Y Delyn Yng nGhymru Mewn Lluniau /
The Harp in Wales in Pictures
D. Roy Saer,
Assistant Keeper, Department of Farming, Crafts and Cultural Life,
Welsh Folk Museum
Gwasg Gomer / Gomer Press, 1991
ISBN: 0-86383-724-7
Page 20 (picture #15): Aberystwyth Fair, 1797 (in a later oil-painting copy). Both harp and fiddle (off-stage) appear here in Wales during the 18th century, these two instruments dominated the popular music-making scene --- and consequently earned the bitter antagonism of religious revivalists.
Page 25 (picture #21): Harpist 'Telynor y Waun Oer' (Evan Jones) with 'penillion' singer 'Eos Mawddwy' (Robert Evans) around 1865 (?), Evan Jones wandered frequently with his triple harp on his back to play at informal 'Nosweithiau Llawen' ('Merry Evenings') and for dance occasions.
Page 26 (picture #23, a favourite!): John Roberts ('Telynor Cymru'), with triple harp on his back, around 1880 (?). The triple's light weight made it ideal for strolling harpists. Of Wales's many gipsy harpists during the last century, Joyn Roberts was the chief winner of 'eisteddfod' competitions.
Page 28 (picture #25): The Roberts harp choir before Queen Victoria at Pale mansion, near Bala, Gwynedd, in 1889. John Roberts ('Telynor Cymru') and his sons featured the triple harp prominently on this notable occasion.
Page 28 (picture #28, a favourite!): Wandering musicians David (harp), Cornelius and Adolphus Wood (homemade box fiddles), just before 1914. The Roberts and Wood families of north Wales produced the great majority of Welsh gipsy musicians. David Wood here plays a pedal harp, but pedal harps were sometimes made lighter to carry by removing their mechanism! (Note the carrying strap.)
Page 34 (picture #31): Musicians at the funeral rites of gipsyologist Dr. John Sampson on the slopes of Y Foel Goch, Merioneth (Gwynedd), in 1931. Here, three generations of the Romani-descended Roberts clan temporarily revived the old musical inter-relationship of harp and fiddle in Wales.
Well firstly I might suggest a broad definition of gypsy might be appropriate.
The dictionary definition;a member of a race of people originally from northern India who typically used to travel from place to place, and now live especially in Europe and North America:
How accurate or relevant is this definition? Does one have to be full blood? or is a didicoy a gypsy? at what point does one cease to be a gypsy? or become one?
Are Roma settlers still gypsies? Who defines gypsy? the gypsy them selves or the settled population?
This is a serious and interesting piece on the subject.http://books.google.com/books?id=fGmk3NEFuO4C
Yes, a relevant point, having come across different peoples called by others 'gypsy', but who do not mix with one another and distinguish themselves as something different, such as the Vlacchi of Easter Europe. I think, for a little narrowing, that we might focus this on those hereabouts on these islands, as were and are still involved in this music. While there may be some who do not see a reason to limit it so, I think it might be best to keep to the related music, that which is the primary focus of this site. And, I won't deal with the brass bands in America... They didn't play jigs, reels or hornpipes...
If I wasn't clear, it's this music and that involvement, for example the Fureys of Ireland...
Yes, true, I took the title via the older books I was perusing at the time... The term 'Gypsy', in various languages, is still used as a derogatory term... That, definitely, was not my intention... However, it does in part reflect that tendency to overlook that involvement in the music of these isles, as if 'Gypsy' meant it wasn't worth consideration or inclusion in any history of the music and dance... So, good, we should discuss that too, but I'm still hoping this will work its way toward music rather than symantics, pleaaaassse...
I met many older people in Ireland that did not speak desparagingly of 'gypsies' from their pasts, but of how they were welcome and came with skills and crafts, such as tin smithing, that these abilities were appreciated. That attitude that has changed drastically as those skills and crafts were no longer of use and these people came to be considered an unwanted nuisance...blamed for much of the theft that seemed to follow their movements, right or wrong, such as of lead and copper from historic buildings, churches, houses, electrical sub-stations, etc...and blamed for trades that were scams ~ oiling your roof or drive...usually resulting in ruin, or prepaid and never done... As always, it is wrong to condemn a whole population for the misdeeds of a few.
I'd heard tales of musicians too, in these traditions we trade in here, but almost nothing in that regard anymore. So, I'm hoping this will grow as what was intended, at least a respect and consideration of that past, when music was still an important part of what they carried with them and shared with others ~ music and dance. I have a few books that have listed stepdance as another of their shared gifts ~ stepping / clogging...
All I'm saying is that most of the Romani these days themselves prefer "romani," not "gypsy."
At last one of my tinker ancestors played fiddle, eventually settling down in Co. Roscommon and marrying into a farming family. But that's all I know about the musical side of it.
Paddy Keenan's family traces their lineage back to "travellers," and some of their settings of tunes.
Thanks for posting this, ceol. I think the subject is fascinating. Unfortunately, I, as I suspect many others, know next to nothing about it. You've reminded me that I must learn - and re-learn what I had forgotten - about gypsies and their influence on music in these islands.
Now, Will. I have heard - very occasionally - that the term 'gypsy' is sometimes considered to be pejorative. But why? It doesn't mean anything bad ... Is it a bit like calling me a 'whitey'?
Hi Ceol
I have worked with both European Roma and local Traveller /Romany populations and both have a respect for the idea of music as an acceptable occupation. Before the days of recorded music and near universal literacy I am sure they acted as conduits of culture look at the Dancing Masters who taught in Eire along with other wandering minstrals you mentioned above .
As for identifying current individuals very difficult out side of a few cases however this link might help so the old ways are not dead yet
I also prefer the term 'Romani', but have had dealings with others that fall under the general heading of 'gypsy' that prefer other names than 'Romani'... So, my preference is in agreement with you Will, as usual. However, the start was based on old books and a tune ~ "Gypsy Serenade" ~ and a tourist experience offered in restaurants, including in Hungary ~ 'The Gypsy Serenade'... There was a difference of spelling in the books ~ Gipsy, and they didn't tend to capitalize the term, even coining one 'gypsiologist' I haven't seen elsewhere...
Ok so if we are talking about a broader definition of gypsy to include the travelling folk of these islands then we need not look far, for example Johny Doran;http://www.iol.ie/~ronolan/doran.html
Johnny being an important influence on Irish music, and not just with regards to the uilleann pipes. There are also some great stories about the man, his visits to fairs and other activities and being pursued by the police, and his inventions so he could play standing and, if he had to, move very quickly with pipes in hand... I have a great love and appreciation for his playing, and Felix's too...
Yes I thought that too Ceol.
I remember talking to Kevin Henry from Chicago/Sligo a great raconteur, whistle player ,piper and flautist . Don’t know if he is still alive as it was ten years ago and was 70+ then , in Tubbercurry and afterwards someone else describing him to me as the last of the great travelling pipers, don’t know much about his back ground other that his sister Verona, a great fiddle player used to play in Sligo town until only a couple of years back at least.
I have his album and he also plays on a Lawence Nugent album Tooty has.
I didn't know that Baz ~ about the term 'Egyptian' leading to 'Gypsy', curious... Even more so because I spent a little time in Kosovo...with an interest in the various cultures that make up that area of the world...
Some of the earliest English and Scottish reference to the then pure Roma dating I think from the time of Henry the 8th refer to them as Egyptians under the mistaken belief that is where they came from I can find the references if you want I think as well ( but not tonight am off to session )
References to the modern Egyptian Roma see the constitution of the New Kosovan Parliament they have reserved seats
I've met a lot of what I'd call, very loosely, gypsies, in my life.
I use that word because other people use it. Most people talk about others in those sort of terms. Sometimes it is derogatory or contemptuous. Personally, I just talk to the individual in front of me as a fellow human.
There's usually three of four visits a year here from people wanting to buy scrap or selling clothes or household oddments. Someimes I've bought horses or traps or harness from gypsies. On the whole I like them all, mostly because I respect their contempt for mainstream soceity, and the value they place on liberty, values i share. Mostly, they seem to have a hard life, having to live on their wits, which keeps their feet firmly on the ground.
I have sometimes got into long conversations, but have never come across any who played instruments.
Thinking about it, there was a whole clan of so-called gypsies resident in one village where I lived for 7 years.
They weren't itinerant. Just regarded as rough and disreputable by everyone else. One of them told me a long garbled story about how they'd been awarded a coat of arms by the King of Hungary and other tales.
One time, I'd been demolishing a building on an old army camp and had some scrap on my van roof. I passed a gypsy camp, all chrome trailers and dogs and scruffy kids.I went and asked if they bought scrap. i got invited into this huge caravan, very posh and immaculate, with about 15 men and women inside. I explained about the scrap and the site, and told them how to find it. When they realised I wasn't the police or a sociologist or whatever, just someone being friendly and helpful, I felt like part of the family in five minutes, everybody laughing and joking. I thought they were great folks. That was all in Mid Wales.
About the name. I am vaguely aware that the people themselves don't like the word 'gypsy' and prefer Roma. But I've only picked that up on the radio or somewhere. I don't recall anyone EVER saying to me "I'm a gypsy" or "I'm a Roma". I've heard plenty say "I'm a hippie" and I've heard plenty use 'hippie' contemptuously, meaning dirty, hepatitis carrying, junkie layabouts. But my impression has always been that the rural farming community actually like the people they called gypsies, and saw them as useful, to collect scrap and so forth. Just that they didn't quite trust them.
In Ireland, making that home, we had at least annual visits of Romany women with children in tow, selling Spanish shamrocks and fortunes... There were a couple of families I'd come across of poor reputation, one who taught their children how to approach tourists with their shawls outstretched over both hands begging, so they could unseen used a hand beneath the shawl to pick pockets, or purses...
Another couple of regulars down near the Liffy and in St. Stephens park, used to sit with a whistle and play the same few notes over and over again, not a tune, just a sequence of notes, played slowly. When asked I was told that they knew that by the time they got back to the beginning of the sequence the person who had just passed would be gone, so it didn't matter...
Having worked a little with them, children mainly, I also knew what they often had to face if they went home without any profits... As said, this was just a few I knew about. Mostly there wasn't any music in the few families I knew, except what came on the tele or radio... But, all knew stories of 'music in the past'...
My uncle was a Traveller back in the fifties. His job was to travel round the shops taking orders for the firm he worked for. Nowadays he would be called a Rep'. The Gypsies that came around the doors selling the pots and pans that they made were called Tinkers because they were Tin Smiths. I wonder who and why some twit decided to change a whole way of life and confuse all us old gits. Somehow The Spanish Gypsy Dance - Gypsy Davey - Speak to me Gypsy - Gypsy Joe and me - The Gypsy Rover - The Tinkers Daughter etc etc wouldn't sound the same if the word 'Traveller' was used instead of 'Gypsy'
1562. An Act is passed in England "for further punishment of Vagabonds, calling themselves Egyptians." Any Gypsy born in England and Wales is not compelled to leave the country if they quit their idle and ungodly life and company. All others should suffer death and loss of lands and goods. http://www.romahistory.com/en/2-5-2.htm
Aha, B D and the..., this place I live is one of last remaining feudal baronies. Not nearly as long ago as 1562 people could be stripped and whipped in the street for what would now be very minor indiscretions. If you didn't like this parish and walked north up the coast into the next parish, you could be imprisoned as a vagrant, beaten by the constables, and sent back forcibly, and a bill for costs presented to your home parish, who'd beat you up all over again for costing them trouble and money. Good old days, eh ?
I've always had an affection for anybody who refused to submit, whatever it might cost them in hardship. You know, the one's who'd run away to sea or join a circus or the cattle drovers or earn a bit busking rather than become what was often a slave in all but name...
Check out Sheila Stewart, the last of a long line of a Scottish travelling family from Blairgowrie known for being pipers, storytellers, and ballad singers. She sings songs dating back to the 12th century (some of which are preserved in Edinburgh Unis School of Scottish Studies due to the song collecting efforts of Hamish Henderson). Sheila's children have settled and no longer live the travelling lifestyle, speak the cant, or sing in the distinctive style, so she really is the last of this tradition. Her singing can be heard here:
Thanks SilverSpear, Hanish Henderson is known for doing collecting from a number of gypsy / Romani sources. I also have some vague memory, right or wrong, that Seamus Ennis also did some collection along similar lines, from gypsy / Romani musicians and singers, for the BBC...?
As far as I understand it, Gypsies were the same as the Roma people and came to Scotland first in these islands, at the invitation of one of the Mediaeval Scottish kings, to be musicians and entertainers at court. After some time the Scottish Kingdom took exception to their real or imagined offences and expelled them. They escaped, if they could, into England and Wales; I imagine also to Ireland, but don't know.
The Travellers are indigenous Scots and Irish who took to the road and specialised in tin-smithing and other jobs. Maybe they filled a niche here left by the Gypsy expellees from Scotland. But from being professional musicians to being professional metalworkers seems quite a long call, even over generations, for the Gypsies.Some must have been pretty versatile.
Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
This is a continuance of a development in content that evovled toward the latter part of the following ~
Discussion: Looking For Good Music
# Posted on February 20th 2008 by muellehn
http://www.thesession.org/discussions/display/16794
We started considering the Gypsy influences in Welsh music, in the past, as eventually suppressed by religion and society. That participation in this music ~ Ireland, Scotland, Wales, etc. ~ is sometimes passed over or neglected in the story telling. I'm curious to see what others know about the Gypsy presence and involvement in it all. I know a few things, and have worked with them some in Ireland, though not music wise, except to teach some children the music.
I was about to add an extension to the end of that discussion, and then thought it might be fun to surface with a new discusssion with that as the focus, Gypsies with respect to their input and invovlement in this music and dance. Here's the additions I'd originally planned from the previous discussion, starting with the full details of a book that was involved in last night's chat, information so anyone interested can try to chase up their own copy. Following that are a few extracts from another source, other sources given. More may follow, but for now I'm hoping others will come and contribute a tale or two, a source, a respect or consideration toward this group of people and their involvement in the traditions we mix on this site ~ Gypsies...
"Famous Fiddlers"
by the Reverend W. Meredith Morris
Edited, with introduction and notes, by Roy Saer
National Museum or Wales: Welsh Folk Museum, 1983
ISBN: 0-85485-061-9
Herstory passed over ~ Page 22, 1 paragraph:
Grassie Busville: the Gipsy Fiddler
['De Fidiculis' at this point includes a very lengthy romantic tale, melodromatically presented. Allegedly true, it is set in southern Pembrokshire and the West of England during the Thirties of the last century (1800s). 'Grassie Busville', like most of its personal and place names, was fictitiously coined by Meredith Morris himself. While 'Grassie' is supposed to have been yet another of Pembrokshire's wandering fiddlers, the tale reveals next to nothing about her minstrelling activities and is therefore omitted from the present publication.]
The Story of the Harp in Wales
Osian Ellis
University of Wales Press, 1991
ISBN: 0-7083-1104-0
Y Delyn Yng nGhymru Mewn Lluniau /
The Harp in Wales in Pictures
D. Roy Saer,
Assistant Keeper, Department of Farming, Crafts and Cultural Life,
Welsh Folk Museum
Gwasg Gomer / Gomer Press, 1991
ISBN: 0-86383-724-7
Page 20 (picture #15): Aberystwyth Fair, 1797 (in a later oil-painting copy). Both harp and fiddle (off-stage) appear here in Wales during the 18th century, these two instruments dominated the popular music-making scene --- and consequently earned the bitter antagonism of religious revivalists.
Page 25 (picture #21): Harpist 'Telynor y Waun Oer' (Evan Jones) with 'penillion' singer 'Eos Mawddwy' (Robert Evans) around 1865 (?), Evan Jones wandered frequently with his triple harp on his back to play at informal 'Nosweithiau Llawen' ('Merry Evenings') and for dance occasions.
Page 26 (picture #23, a favourite!): John Roberts ('Telynor Cymru'), with triple harp on his back, around 1880 (?). The triple's light weight made it ideal for strolling harpists. Of Wales's many gipsy harpists during the last century, Joyn Roberts was the chief winner of 'eisteddfod' competitions.
Page 28 (picture #25): The Roberts harp choir before Queen Victoria at Pale mansion, near Bala, Gwynedd, in 1889. John Roberts ('Telynor Cymru') and his sons featured the triple harp prominently on this notable occasion.
Page 28 (picture #28, a favourite!): Wandering musicians David (harp), Cornelius and Adolphus Wood (homemade box fiddles), just before 1914. The Roberts and Wood families of north Wales produced the great majority of Welsh gipsy musicians. David Wood here plays a pedal harp, but pedal harps were sometimes made lighter to carry by removing their mechanism! (Note the carrying strap.)
Page 34 (picture #31): Musicians at the funeral rites of gipsyologist Dr. John Sampson on the slopes of Y Foel Goch, Merioneth (Gwynedd), in 1931. Here, three generations of the Romani-descended Roberts clan temporarily revived the old musical inter-relationship of harp and fiddle in Wales.
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Well firstly I might suggest a broad definition of gypsy might be appropriate.
The dictionary definition;a member of a race of people originally from northern India who typically used to travel from place to place, and now live especially in Europe and North America:
How accurate or relevant is this definition? Does one have to be full blood? or is a didicoy a gypsy? at what point does one cease to be a gypsy? or become one?
Are Roma settlers still gypsies? Who defines gypsy? the gypsy them selves or the settled population?
This is a serious and interesting piece on the subject.http://books.google.com/books?id=fGmk3NEFuO4C
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Yes, a relevant point, having come across different peoples called by others 'gypsy', but who do not mix with one another and distinguish themselves as something different, such as the Vlacchi of Easter Europe. I think, for a little narrowing, that we might focus this on those hereabouts on these islands, as were and are still involved in this music. While there may be some who do not see a reason to limit it so, I think it might be best to keep to the related music, that which is the primary focus of this site. And, I won't deal with the brass bands in America... They didn't play jigs, reels or hornpipes...
If I wasn't clear, it's this music and that involvement, for example the Fureys of Ireland...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
"The Raineys"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/2422
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Bear in mind that the term "gypsy" is felt by many to be derogatory. Many people prefer to be called Romani.
One side of my dad's family were Romani tinkers in Ireland.
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Jeannie Robertson ~ Scottish singer
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Yes, true, I took the title via the older books I was perusing at the time... The term 'Gypsy', in various languages, is still used as a derogatory term... That, definitely, was not my intention... However, it does in part reflect that tendency to overlook that involvement in the music of these isles, as if 'Gypsy' meant it wasn't worth consideration or inclusion in any history of the music and dance... So, good, we should discuss that too, but I'm still hoping this will work its way toward music rather than symantics, pleaaaassse...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
I met many older people in Ireland that did not speak desparagingly of 'gypsies' from their pasts, but of how they were welcome and came with skills and crafts, such as tin smithing, that these abilities were appreciated. That attitude that has changed drastically as those skills and crafts were no longer of use and these people came to be considered an unwanted nuisance...blamed for much of the theft that seemed to follow their movements, right or wrong, such as of lead and copper from historic buildings, churches, houses, electrical sub-stations, etc...and blamed for trades that were scams ~ oiling your roof or drive...usually resulting in ruin, or prepaid and never done... As always, it is wrong to condemn a whole population for the misdeeds of a few.
I'd heard tales of musicians too, in these traditions we trade in here, but almost nothing in that regard anymore. So, I'm hoping this will grow as what was intended, at least a respect and consideration of that past, when music was still an important part of what they carried with them and shared with others ~ music and dance. I have a few books that have listed stepdance as another of their shared gifts ~ stepping / clogging...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
All I'm saying is that most of the Romani these days themselves prefer "romani," not "gypsy."
At last one of my tinker ancestors played fiddle, eventually settling down in Co. Roscommon and marrying into a farming family. But that's all I know about the musical side of it.
Paddy Keenan's family traces their lineage back to "travellers," and some of their settings of tunes.
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by Miss Lonelyhearts
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Thanks for posting this, ceol. I think the subject is fascinating. Unfortunately, I, as I suspect many others, know next to nothing about it. You've reminded me that I must learn - and re-learn what I had forgotten - about gypsies and their influence on music in these islands.
Now, Will. I have heard - very occasionally - that the term 'gypsy' is sometimes considered to be pejorative. But why? It doesn't mean anything bad ... Is it a bit like calling me a 'whitey'?
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by benhall.1
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Hi Ceol
I have worked with both European Roma and local Traveller /Romany populations and both have a respect for the idea of music as an acceptable occupation. Before the days of recorded music and near universal literacy I am sure they acted as conduits of culture look at the Dancing Masters who taught in Eire along with other wandering minstrals you mentioned above .
As for identifying current individuals very difficult out side of a few cases however this link might help so the old ways are not dead yet
http://www.gypsyromatravellerleeds.co.uk/Culture/rooneyRecordings.html
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
I also prefer the term 'Romani', but have had dealings with others that fall under the general heading of 'gypsy' that prefer other names than 'Romani'... So, my preference is in agreement with you Will, as usual. However, the start was based on old books and a tune ~ "Gypsy Serenade" ~ and a tourist experience offered in restaurants, including in Hungary ~ 'The Gypsy Serenade'... There was a difference of spelling in the books ~ Gipsy, and they didn't tend to capitalize the term, even coining one 'gypsiologist' I haven't seen elsewhere...
http://www.romani.org/
http://www.romaniworld.com/
http://www.paveepoint.ie/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_language
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Thanks Dave...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
How nice to see Dave Williams mentioned and his pipes praised. I was also a fan...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
There is one Roma Group in the Balkans ,Kosova mostly ,who call themselves Egyptians, the origin of the term Gypsy itself.
Very strange
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Ok so if we are talking about a broader definition of gypsy to include the travelling folk of these islands then we need not look far, for example Johny Doran;http://www.iol.ie/~ronolan/doran.html
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Yes, Johnny & Felix Doran
"The Bunch Of Keys: The Complete Recordings Of Johnny Doran"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1437
"Johnny Doran: The Master Pipers Volume 1"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1096
"Felix Doran: The Last Of The Travelling Pipers"
http://www.thesession.org/recordings/display/1740
Johnny being an important influence on Irish music, and not just with regards to the uilleann pipes. There are also some great stories about the man, his visits to fairs and other activities and being pursued by the police, and his inventions so he could play standing and, if he had to, move very quickly with pipes in hand...
I have a great love and appreciation for his playing, and Felix's too...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Yes I thought that too Ceol.
I remember talking to Kevin Henry from Chicago/Sligo a great raconteur, whistle player ,piper and flautist . Don’t know if he is still alive as it was ten years ago and was 70+ then , in Tubbercurry and afterwards someone else describing him to me as the last of the great travelling pipers, don’t know much about his back ground other that his sister Verona, a great fiddle player used to play in Sligo town until only a couple of years back at least.
I have his album and he also plays on a Lawence Nugent album Tooty has.
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
I didn't know that Baz ~ about the term 'Egyptian' leading to 'Gypsy', curious... Even more so because I spent a little time in Kosovo...with an interest in the various cultures that make up that area of the world...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
nice one dave. John Rooney.....
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
"I'm a free born man of the travelling people..."
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0wWm9W47gV4&feature=related
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Some of the earliest English and Scottish reference to the then pure Roma dating I think from the time of Henry the 8th refer to them as Egyptians under the mistaken belief that is where they came from I can find the references if you want I think as well ( but not tonight am off to session )
References to the modern Egyptian Roma see the constitution of the New Kosovan Parliament they have reserved seats
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Thanks Baz, yes, I'd love to know the reference, but music first.
More links courtesy of Baz ~
http://www.gypsyromatravellerleeds.co.uk/
http://www.imninalu.net/famousGypsies.htm
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
It's been too long since I heard that and ejoyed Luke Kelly's voice and take on it, thanks for the reminder SWFL...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
My pleasure c, he had a timeless voice.
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
I've met a lot of what I'd call, very loosely, gypsies, in my life.
I use that word because other people use it. Most people talk about others in those sort of terms. Sometimes it is derogatory or contemptuous. Personally, I just talk to the individual in front of me as a fellow human.
There's usually three of four visits a year here from people wanting to buy scrap or selling clothes or household oddments. Someimes I've bought horses or traps or harness from gypsies. On the whole I like them all, mostly because I respect their contempt for mainstream soceity, and the value they place on liberty, values i share. Mostly, they seem to have a hard life, having to live on their wits, which keeps their feet firmly on the ground.
I have sometimes got into long conversations, but have never come across any who played instruments.
Thinking about it, there was a whole clan of so-called gypsies resident in one village where I lived for 7 years.
They weren't itinerant. Just regarded as rough and disreputable by everyone else. One of them told me a long garbled story about how they'd been awarded a coat of arms by the King of Hungary and other tales.
One time, I'd been demolishing a building on an old army camp and had some scrap on my van roof. I passed a gypsy camp, all chrome trailers and dogs and scruffy kids.I went and asked if they bought scrap. i got invited into this huge caravan, very posh and immaculate, with about 15 men and women inside. I explained about the scrap and the site, and told them how to find it. When they realised I wasn't the police or a sociologist or whatever, just someone being friendly and helpful, I felt like part of the family in five minutes, everybody laughing and joking. I thought they were great folks. That was all in Mid Wales.
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
This guy wrote lots of first hand accounts of gypsy life that I enjoyed reading many years ago.
http://www.classictravelbooks.com/authors/borrow.htm
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
About the name. I am vaguely aware that the people themselves don't like the word 'gypsy' and prefer Roma. But I've only picked that up on the radio or somewhere. I don't recall anyone EVER saying to me "I'm a gypsy" or "I'm a Roma". I've heard plenty say "I'm a hippie" and I've heard plenty use 'hippie' contemptuously, meaning dirty, hepatitis carrying, junkie layabouts. But my impression has always been that the rural farming community actually like the people they called gypsies, and saw them as useful, to collect scrap and so forth. Just that they didn't quite trust them.
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
In Ireland, making that home, we had at least annual visits of Romany women with children in tow, selling Spanish shamrocks and fortunes... There were a couple of families I'd come across of poor reputation, one who taught their children how to approach tourists with their shawls outstretched over both hands begging, so they could unseen used a hand beneath the shawl to pick pockets, or purses...
Another couple of regulars down near the Liffy and in St. Stephens park, used to sit with a whistle and play the same few notes over and over again, not a tune, just a sequence of notes, played slowly. When asked I was told that they knew that by the time they got back to the beginning of the sequence the person who had just passed would be gone, so it didn't matter...
Having worked a little with them, children mainly, I also knew what they often had to face if they went home without any profits... As said, this was just a few I knew about. Mostly there wasn't any music in the few families I knew, except what came on the tele or radio... But, all knew stories of 'music in the past'...
# Posted on February 21st 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
My uncle was a Traveller back in the fifties. His job was to travel round the shops taking orders for the firm he worked for. Nowadays he would be called a Rep'. The Gypsies that came around the doors selling the pots and pans that they made were called Tinkers because they were Tin Smiths. I wonder who and why some twit decided to change a whole way of life and confuse all us old gits. Somehow The Spanish Gypsy Dance - Gypsy Davey - Speak to me Gypsy - Gypsy Joe and me - The Gypsy Rover - The Tinkers Daughter etc etc wouldn't sound the same if the word 'Traveller' was used instead of 'Gypsy'
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by Free Reed
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Some links with interesting pictures
http://www.harlequinfarmsgypsyhorses.com/AboutGypsies.html
http://www.applebyfaircompany.com/acatalog/Gypsy_Books.html
http://www.visitcumbria.com/events/appleby-fair.htm
http://www.scottishtravellered.net/positive/appleby05.html
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
A couple more
http://www.valleystream.co.uk/romhome.htm
http://www.endicott-studio.com/rdrm/forgypsy.html
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
1562. An Act is passed in England "for further punishment of Vagabonds, calling themselves Egyptians." Any Gypsy born in England and Wales is not compelled to leave the country if they quit their idle and ungodly life and company. All others should suffer death and loss of lands and goods.
http://www.romahistory.com/en/2-5-2.htm
Some things never change
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by bazouki dave
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Aha, B D and the..., this place I live is one of last remaining feudal baronies. Not nearly as long ago as 1562 people could be stripped and whipped in the street for what would now be very minor indiscretions. If you didn't like this parish and walked north up the coast into the next parish, you could be imprisoned as a vagrant, beaten by the constables, and sent back forcibly, and a bill for costs presented to your home parish, who'd beat you up all over again for costing them trouble and money. Good old days, eh ?
I've always had an affection for anybody who refused to submit, whatever it might cost them in hardship. You know, the one's who'd run away to sea or join a circus or the cattle drovers or earn a bit busking rather than become what was often a slave in all but name...
http://naturyl.humanists.net/synthesis/freedom.html
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by wolfbird
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Check out Sheila Stewart, the last of a long line of a Scottish travelling family from Blairgowrie known for being pipers, storytellers, and ballad singers. She sings songs dating back to the 12th century (some of which are preserved in Edinburgh Unis School of Scottish Studies due to the song collecting efforts of Hamish Henderson). Sheila's children have settled and no longer live the travelling lifestyle, speak the cant, or sing in the distinctive style, so she really is the last of this tradition. Her singing can be heard here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/music/tv/index.shtml?episode_number=03
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by TheSilverSpear
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Thanks SilverSpear, Hanish Henderson is known for doing collecting from a number of gypsy / Romani sources. I also have some vague memory, right or wrong, that Seamus Ennis also did some collection along similar lines, from gypsy / Romani musicians and singers, for the BBC...?
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by ceolachan
Lovely Silver, but now I'm reminded of a dance tune that fits that air... Will I remember the rest and the name?
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by ceolachan
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
http://www.folkmusic.net/htmfiles/inart558.htm
# Posted on February 22nd 2008 by the wicked hacker
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Free Reed - Irish Travellers are a completely different ethnic group from Romani "Gypsies".
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by Lizzy
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
As far as I understand it, Gypsies were the same as the Roma people and came to Scotland first in these islands, at the invitation of one of the Mediaeval Scottish kings, to be musicians and entertainers at court. After some time the Scottish Kingdom took exception to their real or imagined offences and expelled them. They escaped, if they could, into England and Wales; I imagine also to Ireland, but don't know.
The Travellers are indigenous Scots and Irish who took to the road and specialised in tin-smithing and other jobs. Maybe they filled a niche here left by the Gypsy expellees from Scotland. But from being professional musicians to being professional metalworkers seems quite a long call, even over generations, for the Gypsies.Some must have been pretty versatile.
# Posted on February 25th 2008 by nicholas
Re: Gypsy Serenade ~ a respect and consideration
Connemara Tinker early last century
http://www.libraryireland.com/Jaunting-Car/Claddagh.php
# Posted on March 1st 2008 by wolfbird