I've been lying in bed this morning listening to Classic FM, and heard a few attempts by "classical" composers to imitate Irish Traditional Music. Problem is, to me it sounds nothing like it, and I'm never quite sure whether they are meaning to make a complete parody of it. I actually suspect they have tried to make it sound authentic, but just failed miserably. I know this isn't much of a discussion thread topic, but it was such a bad start to my day, and I just wanted to tell everyone that I found it *extremely* irritating. Mornings are bad enough without that. Also I've run out of coffee.
I've heard that Beethoven arranged some Irish songs for vocals and string ensemble (quartet?). Has anybody heard this stuff?
Sorry for your morning bummer Dow... guess I'll have to make myself a nice cup of espresso
No, well not necessarily, all the stuff about "classically trained people" has been done to death on these threads. I was actually talking about mostly 20th century composers who tried to do orchestral arrangements of pseudo Irish music. The stuff I've heard is like really twee "dum-dee dum-dee dum" stuff that just sounds all wrong - almost as if it's deliberately taking the piss out of Irish music, and I find it really irritating (especially early in the morning).
My favorite story along these lines is Will's story of hearing the Boston Pops Symphony Orchestra playing Toss The Feathers, which would be really annoying indeed except that apparently it's absolutely hilarious...
Not sure. Back in my chamber music days, we played this incredibly intricate arrangement of Molly on the Shore, which, thinking back on it, may or may not be an actual tune (new discussion for anyone who wants to grab it). Vaughn Williams or somebody composed it. It was gorgeous but the key is that it wasn't trying to sound like a session/traditional group.
It is worse if they're trying to sound authentic but haven't got a clue than if they're taking a beautiful part of Irish music and creating a beautiful new kind of music with it.
If the whole thing sounds like crap, that's a different story, but even that kind of music done well is usually okay with me. Unless it's in the morning...
Wake up and smell the coffee Dow!!
It is interesting how in the years BR (Before Riverdance) most composers and classically trained musicians looked on The music as rather twee and odd and irritating how it repeats and uses primitive ornamentation blah blah blah. But now that it is trendy and popular and there is a quick dollar to made in pandering to fads they are embracing it as a lost art form and swiftly turning it into elevator and shopping mall muzak.
Would you believe at a dodgy shopping centre in the western suburbs of Sydney I heard Tony McManus (xcellent guitarist) being pumped over the sound system!!!!!
I wish it would go back to being daggy and elitist
Has anyone got a copy of the guy playing music from Riverdance on the panpipes? That would be a real session killer!
Yours in fun and frivolity
Greeny
PS Don't let me catch you borrowing somebody else's banjo and playing it with a five cent piece again!!!! Buy a plectrum you goose.
I think it's partly to do with classical players who are new to traditional music having a really naff idea of how it should go.
Lets face it, you can just imagine the conductors arm pulsing as he mutters "pom pom pom " to the rhythm and violinists bows bouncing and thrusting, heads swaying to what's become like what classical music mostly is anyway- a style made up of borrowed bits from other traditions played in a distinctively "classically" way.
Hah, now thats off my chest! appologies to trevor and all trully dual tallented classical traditionalists!
I remember a group that I once nearly played with in Britain, totally classically trained with no traditional experience, wanted to play lots of Scottish stuff. They're answer to getting lilt was to play at breakneck speed as loud as they could! Needless to say, I couldn't get to the door fast enough!
Thats not to say that classical musicians can't become good traditional musicians, it just requires time for the new feel to filter into the playing and understanding of the music I think.......after all, a musically gifted person is a musically gifted person......, and probably less time than it would take to learn an instrument from scratch!
Oh, and the actual physical way of playing (bow movement, etc) etc would be totally alien to a classical player, in fact he would likely have been taught from an early age NOT to play like that!
Bellow control and finger movement on box is also entirely different from that awful stuff we hear too regularly........
I believe "Molly on the Shore" is an actual tune that the composer/pianist Percy Grainger picked up in his wanderings. Like Vaughan Williams and a few others in the early 20c he spent a considerable part of his career collecting folk music from genuinely original sources before it was washed away in the wave of the technology of the new century, and then arranging them in his own distinctive style as piano or orchestral pieces. A case in point is "Country Gardens", an English morris dance tune which Grainger collected and arranged for the piano. It has been too often ruined by twee orchestral performances, but if you want to hear Grainger's perception of it try to get hold of his own recording of it on the piano (he was a virtuoso pianist of the highest order) and you'll hear the real energy in this music.
Trevor
yes,molly on the shore is a percy grainger one.would you believe we did this as a ballet a couple of years ago as well as country gardens and oh danny boy.to those who know me,i was in the pit and NOT on stage so allay your fears!
i remember the danny boy arrangement being especially naff,at least molly had some sort of life to it but it was n't what you'ld consider as trad music and how can it be?
by the way,grainger was something of a nutter but that's another story.
and as for you,Dow, don't expect any sympathy from me with your coffee -drinking/classic FM listening ways.sort yerself out,man! what were you thinking of???
what's wrong with a cup of tea and a bit of silence in the morning?
if you want to listen to something classical at that time why don't you put a tape of what you like on? i'ld go for a bit of bach or schubert maybe.
by the way,for those of an ecletic bent i would commend 'late junction' on radio 3 mondays-thursdays at about 10pm-midnight.
and Kenn - yes,that was a bit ramble in parts so i'm joining you. but your description of 'classical' music is a load of fetid dingo's kidneys festering in the bile of a dodo's liver.and if you did n't know before,the best composers don't borrow,they steal!
the only group i recall who could take outside influences and successfully incorporate them into their own tradition are the gypsies but i'm sure there must be others,i'm just too over the eight to remember.
well,that's my take on it anyway.
if you want classical fake with knobs on i suggest you look to (mostly hollywood) film music.often done by 'classical' composers or their equivalent...now,where did i leave my arrangement of the irish washerwoman for cornet,viola,tuba and triangle+gamelan?...ah yes,over there..with...my...coat.............
best wishes,bigdave
Of course I drink coffee and listen to Classic FM, I'm a teacher for God's sakes! The Classic FM isn't the one you know though, it's the ABC (Aussie) version, so I'm not quite turning into my grandma :-p
And just for the record: not only have I never played a banjo with a 5 cent piece, I have never played a banjo and I will never play one. Greenwiggle is the one who plays other people's banjos with a 5 cent piece - you should have seen the look of dismay on the poor banjo owner's face when he did it on Monday night.
(Or then again, maybe the banjo owner was thinking: "Oh my God, do I look that silly with that bloody thing on my knee")...
I know I'm a little late in replying to this post so probably no-one will read it. But as for Beethoven arranging Irish Music, I'm pretty sure that it was an O'Carolan piece that he arranged. So I don't think that it would have been as much of a conflict of styles as if it was Irish Traditional Dance Music.
Cheers
Donough
I saw a performance by classical guitarist Narciso Yepes once many years ago, playing on that 10-string guitar of his own design. He played a concert of all the standard virtuoso Spanish pieces, flashy, fiery things, but then for his curtain call, he played a stark, spare version of Brian Boru's that was just breathtaking in its simplicity.
Not only was it a cool sound, it was a cool thing for him to do, I thought.
I think it's awesome that the Turtle Island String Quartet played with Liz Carroll on her latest album; I probably shouldn't be upset if influences go in the other direction, too...
Dow...it is ..your destiny...(HAW-Haw...Inhale-Exhale)
Join me my son, and we can rule the universe..er.. sorry - I meant session. Come over to the dark side and learn how to REALLY annoy people
Now there is an image for you.
Darth Vader playing the tenor banjo.Or yoda playing the pipes.
Dave, I'd pay money to see you dancing up in the ballet, I really would... hehehe...
A friend of mine plays gamelan -- apparently their gamelan is pretty hot stuff for a non-Bali group... cool stuff, actually, although I generally leave a concert with my head ringing...
Greenwiggle ... I wil not turn, and you'll be forced to kill me.
Search your feelings father. You can't do this ... you can't carry on annoying people at sessions. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.
By the way, Yoda would play whistle I'm sure.
I remeber a story told to me a long time ago...it may seem rather un-P.C these days...
A new pschiatrist arrives at a mental institution. For years the inmates had been languishing, their mental needs ignored and unattended. The doctor decided that he wanted to engage them on a level which had not been tried before: Music Therapy.
So he massed them all into the room and began to give singing lessons. To his utter shock he discovered that they all had perfect voices and were able to harmonise in the manner of angels.
The faculty of the institution were called to a rehearsal and they were left speechless. They decided that they must demonstrate the good doctor's work and the beautiful voices of the disinherited and take the show on the road.
The only remaining problem was one of accompaniment. For obvious reasons, the inmates could not be given instruments, as they could (and probably would) harm one another.
Suddenly, the doctor hit on an idea.
He would give each member of the choir an apple. A harmless apple on which they could tap out the rythym of the song.
You must have heard of them...
Dow...son...join with me and we will overthrow Jere...sorry!! the Emperor.We can issue new sessioners a pair of spoons and a didgemethingee. I can give you real power. The power to halt tunes in mid-note. To drive away the punters. We will hunt down the rebel band of sessioneers...and destroy them.I feel a prescence.......I have'nt felt that feeling for a long time.
The Music is strong in this one.
Greenwiggle, aren't you supposed to be working?!
I've finished my work for the day and am off to practise for my "Bank of Ireland" gig tomorrow ... morning.
Dow...I too have finished for the day...got an early mark for being so stoopid!!
Good luck at the Bank of Ireland...although why they would give you a loan...Jeremy only knows.
although I was focused on Ireland by my parents very early in my life I have to say that especially my mother has absolutely no idea what irish music really is.
But the old lady (touchin her 70´s) plays in a black forrest mandolin orchestra for many years now. Because she realized and likes what music I am doing she worked on putting some irish jigs and hornpipes in the repertoire of that orchestra and recently while beeing home I had the opportunity to see and hear the mandolin orchestra in a real big evening concert with some irish tunes.
In short: it curled my nails!!! but - what can I say: my mother looks very very very happy, when she is playing her mandolin and all their orchestra colleagues around her on stage.
Dow, you should be glad, that they don´t put a recording from this concert on your "Classic" FM when you run out of coffee the next time.
When diddly is arranged for a symphony orchestra and played as a piece of classical music, I think the only thing to do is just take it at face value: i.e. as a nicely arranged and played piece of classical music. As a lover and player of both trad and classical (well aware and able to separate the styles), I've definitely heard my share of classical musicians attempting trad, tunes arranged for orchestra, that sort of thing. Instead of sitting in the middle of the first violin section silently fuming at the concertmaster for giving me a specific bowing for an arrangment of "Toss the Feathers" or whatever, I just look at it as another classical piece. Sure it's not but in order to save my own sanity...anyway, the composers I've encountered that arranged diddly for orchestra aren't trying to replicate a session on stage or anything. They're simply adapting the music for orchestra.
Dow, I agree with big dave. What the hell are you playing at listening to classic fm in the first place. You deserve all you get for allowing that spawn of satan into your head of a morning.
Cara, I agree wth you completely. Any successful combination of Irish and Classical music is really just an adaptation. Two particularly good pieces are "The Brendan Voyage" by Shaun Davey and "The Seville Suite" by Bill Whelan, simply because they're not trying to be purist either way.
I like my musical genres the way I like my species of flora and fauna - Non-GMO. Transgenic species of music also have their place, but the phenotype is often bizarre and does not succesfully represent any of the constituents, so you end up pulling out the bits you like, in this case, for some of uzz lot, the Tunes.
I recall the Battlefield Band (I think) did "Sauchiehall Salsas" which were reels put to a salsa beat - the initial listen-to was quite good fun, but I ended up abstracting the tunes of the reels from all the other stuff, thinking, the reels would have been better left as normal reels, without all the extra stuff.
I didn't get much out of the Brendan Voyage. One thing I did like was the piece 'between worlds' by Micheál Ó Súilleabhean, where he tarted up "The Jockey to the Fair", on Bringing it All Back Home.
Is it not fair to say that classical music often gravitates around a musical theme (trad. Irish music for instance)? I feel this is different from "imitating" and find it quite acceptable, in principle if not always to the ear.
It's too late to join, but I'm also allergic to classical music and hate the slow air tracks on Kevin Crawford's "In Good Company."
But I need to point out early music peacefully coexisted with ITM. A typical baroque suite consists of Allemand, Courante, Sarabande, and Gigue. The first one obviously came from Germany, the second one from Italy, the third one from Spain, and the last one from Ireland. Of course, each piece was not exactly the same as the dance tune of each country, but the composers at that time intentionally imitated its rhythm and feeling. But anyway, such suites were mostly for soloists or small ensembles.
Mark, try Hildegard von Bingen. It's a real healing music featuring medieval wooden flutes and fiddles!
Some twenty odd years ago, a classically trained fiddler got chatting at a folk club and said I play accordion like a "classical" musician (unfeasible?). I was insulted!!
For a few years afterwards, she played in my band but always had the dots out.
We do a gig every couple of years now and she still has to have the dots out, cannot start in the middle of a tune and stops if I improvise or play anything different.
The last time she saw me play, her comment was "nothing changes, you still don't look at the music". Thats classical musicians for you.
what are you doing playing with a person like that? can you not get any fiddle players where you live,Geoff?
i would say that's a***holes for you.
let go and feel the force!
I agree with Folkmasterflex (great name, by the way). I love Scots fiddle music and our band (http://www.siansa.com) plays quite a lot, but I can't stick the Scottish Fiddle Orchestra either. For reasons best not gone onto I saw them about 20 years ago in the Albert Hall and have never been totally well since. Neither one thing nor the other but trying to be both. I remember thinking "all it needs now is for bloody Moira Anderson to turn up unannounced and the misery will be complete" and then she did! Years of therapy now mean I can leave the house, unaccompanied, once a week but I'm still not allowed to carry anything sharp
A relatively easily accessible recording of Percy Grainger playing the piano is a track on "The Grand Piano Era" (Nimbus Records NI 8801). This is a cd of piano-roll performances by great names of the past. The Grainger track is an arrangement of Four Irish Dances by Stanford, followed by Maguire's Kick.
Trevor
it just occurred to me that there is a pretty good piece of music that is virtually built out of nothing but folk tunes (in this case from russia and roudabout) and it's called the rite of spring.give it a go sometime.the music may be stolen but there's nothing fake about it!
you've probably heard it performed already,Trevor,but as eric morcambe said to andré previn that time,the notes are 'all there but not necessarily in the right order'
nice one!
Oh, according to popular myth, the first playing of Rite created a riot after the concert -- you've never heard that old saw? Dunno if it's true or not. I doubt it, I can't believe that a piece of music would have that kind of effect on a bunch of concertgoers, but then there was always the Beatles, after all, so maybe.
Yeah that's why I mentioned its first public airing. That was my point.... Ahh I think we must have hit on a semantics problem - I meant "cooler [reception]" as in "cold/frosty/spiteful", as opposed to "way cool, way-to-go-dude cool", i.e. that it would probably cause more of a riot at a session than it did at that 1st concert. Stravinsky's hardly ITM
By the way, I'm not 100% sure but I think the stuff about the riot is true. The Rite Of Spring was one of the first atonal pieces and it would have sounded very weird to people at that time. They were used to nice pretty sounding stuff with lovely chords that resolve nicely, so the Rite wouldn't have sounded like "proper music". Concerts would have been more rowdy then anyway I guess.
well,there was a kerfuffle of sorts between those in favour /against the piece but that could well have been orchestrated (really,no pun intended!) by diaghalev to get the publicity.or maybe not,knowing what parisian audiences were like!
by the way,it's not atonal.there's passages where chords are heaped onto each other etc but it's yer 2nd viennese mob who came up with that palaver.
anyway,back to seamus creagh...
Dave, I well remember that Eric Morecambe & Ernie Wise's tv show with André Previn! Previn trying unsuccessfully to conduct the orchestra with Eric Morecombe at the piano in a hilariously abortive attempt at the Grieg Piano Concerto (I think it was). Hence Eric's crack about the notes being all there but not necessarily in the right order.
It's been said in later years, probably with some truth, that when that late beloved comedy duo subjected some celebrity to a guest appearance on their tv show that celebrity's career would then take off - perhaps not in its original direction!
Trevor
Dave, I stand corrected. I think I meant something else like polytonal (???). Anyway yeah, I didn't mean to start on about Stravinsky - talk about hijacking my own thread!!! )))
Ever heard the Cheiftans play with a full Orchestra? Man, are they crazy. I heard about 50 violins playing The Irish washerwoman all in unison. Talk about an act of nature!
Classical Fakes
Classical Fakes
I've been lying in bed this morning listening to Classic FM, and heard a few attempts by "classical" composers to imitate Irish Traditional Music. Problem is, to me it sounds nothing like it, and I'm never quite sure whether they are meaning to make a complete parody of it. I actually suspect they have tried to make it sound authentic, but just failed miserably. I know this isn't much of a discussion thread topic, but it was such a bad start to my day, and I just wanted to tell everyone that I found it *extremely* irritating. Mornings are bad enough without that. Also I've run out of coffee.
A very annoyed Dow
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
I've heard that Beethoven arranged some Irish songs for vocals and string ensemble (quartet?). Has anybody heard this stuff?
Sorry for your morning bummer Dow... guess I'll have to make myself a nice cup of espresso
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by matti
Re: Classical Fakes
Dow, so are you saying that people who start with fiddle, usually sound more authentic than people who come from playing a lot of classical???
-Just Confused
Karen
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by BluFiddle
Re: Classical Fakes
No, well not necessarily, all the stuff about "classically trained people" has been done to death on these threads. I was actually talking about mostly 20th century composers who tried to do orchestral arrangements of pseudo Irish music. The stuff I've heard is like really twee "dum-dee dum-dee dum" stuff that just sounds all wrong - almost as if it's deliberately taking the piss out of Irish music, and I find it really irritating (especially early in the morning).
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
My favorite story along these lines is Will's story of hearing the Boston Pops Symphony Orchestra playing Toss The Feathers, which would be really annoying indeed except that apparently it's absolutely hilarious...
zls
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Classical Fakes
Not sure. Back in my chamber music days, we played this incredibly intricate arrangement of Molly on the Shore, which, thinking back on it, may or may not be an actual tune (new discussion for anyone who wants to grab it). Vaughn Williams or somebody composed it. It was gorgeous but the key is that it wasn't trying to sound like a session/traditional group.
It is worse if they're trying to sound authentic but haven't got a clue than if they're taking a beautiful part of Irish music and creating a beautiful new kind of music with it.
If the whole thing sounds like crap, that's a different story, but even that kind of music done well is usually okay with me. Unless it's in the morning...
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by suky
Re: Classical Fakes
Wake up and smell the coffee Dow!!
It is interesting how in the years BR (Before Riverdance) most composers and classically trained musicians looked on The music as rather twee and odd and irritating how it repeats and uses primitive ornamentation blah blah blah. But now that it is trendy and popular and there is a quick dollar to made in pandering to fads they are embracing it as a lost art form and swiftly turning it into elevator and shopping mall muzak.
Would you believe at a dodgy shopping centre in the western suburbs of Sydney I heard Tony McManus (xcellent guitarist) being pumped over the sound system!!!!!
I wish it would go back to being daggy and elitist
Has anyone got a copy of the guy playing music from Riverdance on the panpipes? That would be a real session killer!
Yours in fun and frivolity
Greeny
PS Don't let me catch you borrowing somebody else's banjo and playing it with a five cent piece again!!!! Buy a plectrum you goose.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Classical Fakes
Yea Dow, I find it irritating too.
I think it's partly to do with classical players who are new to traditional music having a really naff idea of how it should go.
Lets face it, you can just imagine the conductors arm pulsing as he mutters "pom pom pom " to the rhythm and violinists bows bouncing and thrusting, heads swaying to what's become like what classical music mostly is anyway- a style made up of borrowed bits from other traditions played in a distinctively "classically" way.
Hah, now thats off my chest! appologies to trevor and all trully dual tallented classical traditionalists!
I remember a group that I once nearly played with in Britain, totally classically trained with no traditional experience, wanted to play lots of Scottish stuff. They're answer to getting lilt was to play at breakneck speed as loud as they could! Needless to say, I couldn't get to the door fast enough!
Thats not to say that classical musicians can't become good traditional musicians, it just requires time for the new feel to filter into the playing and understanding of the music I think.......after all, a musically gifted person is a musically gifted person......, and probably less time than it would take to learn an instrument from scratch!
Anyway, I'm rambling...
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Kenn
Oh, and the actual physical way of playing (bow movement, etc) etc would be totally alien to a classical player, in fact he would likely have been taught from an early age NOT to play like that!
Bellow control and finger movement on box is also entirely different from that awful stuff we hear too regularly........
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Kenn
Re: Classical Fakes
Mark tried to play a banjo with a nickel? *That* must have sounded just dandy.... *snort*
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Classical Fakes
I believe "Molly on the Shore" is an actual tune that the composer/pianist Percy Grainger picked up in his wanderings. Like Vaughan Williams and a few others in the early 20c he spent a considerable part of his career collecting folk music from genuinely original sources before it was washed away in the wave of the technology of the new century, and then arranging them in his own distinctive style as piano or orchestral pieces. A case in point is "Country Gardens", an English morris dance tune which Grainger collected and arranged for the piano. It has been too often ruined by twee orchestral performances, but if you want to hear Grainger's perception of it try to get hold of his own recording of it on the piano (he was a virtuoso pianist of the highest order) and you'll hear the real energy in this music.
Trevor
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Classical Fakes
yes,molly on the shore is a percy grainger one.would you believe we did this as a ballet a couple of years ago as well as country gardens and oh danny boy.to those who know me,i was in the pit and NOT on stage so allay your fears!
i remember the danny boy arrangement being especially naff,at least molly had some sort of life to it but it was n't what you'ld consider as trad music and how can it be?
by the way,grainger was something of a nutter but that's another story.
and as for you,Dow, don't expect any sympathy from me with your coffee -drinking/classic FM listening ways.sort yerself out,man! what were you thinking of???
what's wrong with a cup of tea and a bit of silence in the morning?
if you want to listen to something classical at that time why don't you put a tape of what you like on? i'ld go for a bit of bach or schubert maybe.
by the way,for those of an ecletic bent i would commend 'late junction' on radio 3 mondays-thursdays at about 10pm-midnight.
and Kenn - yes,that was a bit ramble in parts so i'm joining you. but your description of 'classical' music is a load of fetid dingo's kidneys festering in the bile of a dodo's liver.and if you did n't know before,the best composers don't borrow,they steal!
the only group i recall who could take outside influences and successfully incorporate them into their own tradition are the gypsies but i'm sure there must be others,i'm just too over the eight to remember.
well,that's my take on it anyway.
if you want classical fake with knobs on i suggest you look to (mostly hollywood) film music.often done by 'classical' composers or their equivalent...now,where did i leave my arrangement of the irish washerwoman for cornet,viola,tuba and triangle+gamelan?...ah yes,over there..with...my...coat.............
best wishes,bigdave
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Classical Fakes
Of course I drink coffee and listen to Classic FM, I'm a teacher for God's sakes! The Classic FM isn't the one you know though, it's the ABC (Aussie) version, so I'm not quite turning into my grandma :-p
And just for the record: not only have I never played a banjo with a 5 cent piece, I have never played a banjo and I will never play one. Greenwiggle is the one who plays other people's banjos with a 5 cent piece - you should have seen the look of dismay on the poor banjo owner's face when he did it on Monday night.
(Or then again, maybe the banjo owner was thinking: "Oh my God, do I look that silly with that bloody thing on my knee")...
Dubg
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
I know I'm a little late in replying to this post so probably no-one will read it. But as for Beethoven arranging Irish Music, I'm pretty sure that it was an O'Carolan piece that he arranged. So I don't think that it would have been as much of a conflict of styles as if it was Irish Traditional Dance Music.
Cheers
Donough
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Donough
Re: Classical Fakes
I saw a performance by classical guitarist Narciso Yepes once many years ago, playing on that 10-string guitar of his own design. He played a concert of all the standard virtuoso Spanish pieces, flashy, fiery things, but then for his curtain call, he played a stark, spare version of Brian Boru's that was just breathtaking in its simplicity.
Not only was it a cool sound, it was a cool thing for him to do, I thought.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by cuchulain54
Re: Classical Fakes
I think it's awesome that the Turtle Island String Quartet played with Liz Carroll on her latest album; I probably shouldn't be upset if influences go in the other direction, too...
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by suky
Re: Dow on the banjo...
Dow...it is ..your destiny...(HAW-Haw...Inhale-Exhale)
Join me my son, and we can rule the universe..er.. sorry - I meant session. Come over to the dark side and learn how to REALLY annoy people
Now there is an image for you.
Darth Vader playing the tenor banjo.Or yoda playing the pipes.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Classical Fakes
Dave, I'd pay money to see you dancing up in the ballet, I really would... hehehe...
A friend of mine plays gamelan -- apparently their gamelan is pretty hot stuff for a non-Bali group... cool stuff, actually, although I generally leave a concert with my head ringing...
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Classical Fakes
Yoda would totally play the box, dude. *grin*
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Classical Fakes
In a similar vein, are you'all aware that the Mormon Tabernacle Choir (Salt Lake City, USA) recorded their version of "Yes We Have No Bananas"?
Chris
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by unique
Re: Classical Fakes
Greenwiggle ... I wil not turn, and you'll be forced to kill me.
Search your feelings father. You can't do this ... you can't carry on annoying people at sessions. I feel the conflict within you. Let go of your hate.
By the way, Yoda would play whistle I'm sure.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
I remeber a story told to me a long time ago...it may seem rather un-P.C these days...
A new pschiatrist arrives at a mental institution. For years the inmates had been languishing, their mental needs ignored and unattended. The doctor decided that he wanted to engage them on a level which had not been tried before: Music Therapy.
So he massed them all into the room and began to give singing lessons. To his utter shock he discovered that they all had perfect voices and were able to harmonise in the manner of angels.
The faculty of the institution were called to a rehearsal and they were left speechless. They decided that they must demonstrate the good doctor's work and the beautiful voices of the disinherited and take the show on the road.
The only remaining problem was one of accompaniment. For obvious reasons, the inmates could not be given instruments, as they could (and probably would) harm one another.
Suddenly, the doctor hit on an idea.
He would give each member of the choir an apple. A harmless apple on which they could tap out the rythym of the song.
You must have heard of them...
The Moron tap-an-apple choir?
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Dow...son...join with me and we will overthrow Jere...sorry!! the Emperor.We can issue new sessioners a pair of spoons and a didgemethingee. I can give you real power. The power to halt tunes in mid-note. To drive away the punters. We will hunt down the rebel band of sessioneers...and destroy them.I feel a prescence.......I have'nt felt that feeling for a long time.
The Music is strong in this one.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Classical Fakes
Greenwiggle, aren't you supposed to be working?!
I've finished my work for the day and am off to practise for my "Bank of Ireland" gig tomorrow ... morning.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dow
(NEVER! I will not fight you, father. Search your feelings. I feel the good in you...)
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
Dow...I too have finished for the day...got an early mark for being so stoopid!!
Good luck at the Bank of Ireland...although why they would give you a loan...Jeremy only knows.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Greenwiggle
And keep your hands to yourself!!
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Greenwiggle
Re: Classical Fakes
c2AB cBAG|EGDG EGAB|c2AB cBAG|Addc d97
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
although I was focused on Ireland by my parents very early in my life I have to say that especially my mother has absolutely no idea what irish music really is.
But the old lady (touchin her 70´s) plays in a black forrest mandolin orchestra for many years now. Because she realized and likes what music I am doing she worked on putting some irish jigs and hornpipes in the repertoire of that orchestra and recently while beeing home I had the opportunity to see and hear the mandolin orchestra in a real big evening concert with some irish tunes.
In short: it curled my nails!!! but - what can I say: my mother looks very very very happy, when she is playing her mandolin and all their orchestra colleagues around her on stage.
Dow, you should be glad, that they don´t put a recording from this concert on your "Classic" FM when you run out of coffee the next time.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by crannog
Re: Classical Fakes
When diddly is arranged for a symphony orchestra and played as a piece of classical music, I think the only thing to do is just take it at face value: i.e. as a nicely arranged and played piece of classical music. As a lover and player of both trad and classical (well aware and able to separate the styles), I've definitely heard my share of classical musicians attempting trad, tunes arranged for orchestra, that sort of thing. Instead of sitting in the middle of the first violin section silently fuming at the concertmaster for giving me a specific bowing for an arrangment of "Toss the Feathers" or whatever, I just look at it as another classical piece. Sure it's not but in order to save my own sanity...anyway, the composers I've encountered that arranged diddly for orchestra aren't trying to replicate a session on stage or anything. They're simply adapting the music for orchestra.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by carafiddle
Re: Classical Fakes
Dow, I agree with big dave. What the hell are you playing at listening to classic fm in the first place. You deserve all you get for allowing that spawn of satan into your head of a morning.
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by llig leahcim
Re: Classical Fakes
Cara, I agree wth you completely. Any successful combination of Irish and Classical music is really just an adaptation. Two particularly good pieces are "The Brendan Voyage" by Shaun Davey and "The Seville Suite" by Bill Whelan, simply because they're not trying to be purist either way.
Conán
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Conán McDonnell
Re: Classical Fakes
Hmm...
I like my musical genres the way I like my species of flora and fauna - Non-GMO. Transgenic species of music also have their place, but the phenotype is often bizarre and does not succesfully represent any of the constituents, so you end up pulling out the bits you like, in this case, for some of uzz lot, the Tunes.
I recall the Battlefield Band (I think) did "Sauchiehall Salsas" which were reels put to a salsa beat - the initial listen-to was quite good fun, but I ended up abstracting the tunes of the reels from all the other stuff, thinking, the reels would have been better left as normal reels, without all the extra stuff.
I didn't get much out of the Brendan Voyage. One thing I did like was the piece 'between worlds' by Micheál Ó Súilleabhean, where he tarted up "The Jockey to the Fair", on Bringing it All Back Home.
Danny
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by Key Maniac Lad
Re: Classical Fakes
Is it not fair to say that classical music often gravitates around a musical theme (trad. Irish music for instance)? I feel this is different from "imitating" and find it quite acceptable, in principle if not always to the ear.
I hate the Scottish Fiddle Orchestra though.
FMF
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by folkmasterflex
Re: Classical Fakes
It's too late to join, but I'm also allergic to classical music and hate the slow air tracks on Kevin Crawford's "In Good Company."
But I need to point out early music peacefully coexisted with ITM. A typical baroque suite consists of Allemand, Courante, Sarabande, and Gigue. The first one obviously came from Germany, the second one from Italy, the third one from Spain, and the last one from Ireland. Of course, each piece was not exactly the same as the dance tune of each country, but the composers at that time intentionally imitated its rhythm and feeling. But anyway, such suites were mostly for soloists or small ensembles.
Mark, try Hildegard von Bingen. It's a real healing music featuring medieval wooden flutes and fiddles!
# Posted on May 14th 2003 by slainte
Re: Classical Fakes
Some twenty odd years ago, a classically trained fiddler got chatting at a folk club and said I play accordion like a "classical" musician (unfeasible?). I was insulted!!
For a few years afterwards, she played in my band but always had the dots out.
We do a gig every couple of years now and she still has to have the dots out, cannot start in the middle of a tune and stops if I improvise or play anything different.
The last time she saw me play, her comment was "nothing changes, you still don't look at the music". Thats classical musicians for you.
# Posted on May 15th 2003 by geoffwright
Re: Classical Fakes
what are you doing playing with a person like that? can you not get any fiddle players where you live,Geoff?
i would say that's a***holes for you.
let go and feel the force!
# Posted on May 15th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Classical Fakes
I agree with Folkmasterflex (great name, by the way). I love Scots fiddle music and our band (http://www.siansa.com) plays quite a lot, but I can't stick the Scottish Fiddle Orchestra either. For reasons best not gone onto I saw them about 20 years ago in the Albert Hall and have never been totally well since. Neither one thing nor the other but trying to be both. I remember thinking "all it needs now is for bloody Moira Anderson to turn up unannounced and the misery will be complete" and then she did! Years of therapy now mean I can leave the house, unaccompanied, once a week but I'm still not allowed to carry anything sharp
# Posted on May 15th 2003 by Geoff Pollitt
Re: Classical Fakes - Percy Grainger
A relatively easily accessible recording of Percy Grainger playing the piano is a track on "The Grand Piano Era" (Nimbus Records NI 8801). This is a cd of piano-roll performances by great names of the past. The Grainger track is an arrangement of Four Irish Dances by Stanford, followed by Maguire's Kick.
Trevor
# Posted on May 15th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: sacre de printemps blue!
it just occurred to me that there is a pretty good piece of music that is virtually built out of nothing but folk tunes (in this case from russia and roudabout) and it's called the rite of spring.give it a go sometime.the music may be stolen but there's nothing fake about it!
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Classical Fakes
BVD, I can't wait to hear the Rite of Spring performed in a session ...
Trevor
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Classical Fakes
you've probably heard it performed already,Trevor,but as eric morcambe said to andré previn that time,the notes are 'all there but not necessarily in the right order'
nice one!
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Classical Fakes
Trevor, I think "The Rite Of Spring" would probably get a cooler reception at a session even than when it was first performed in public!
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
"Cooler" -- I don't know that I'd call a riot "cooler"!
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Classical Fakes
?
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
Oh, according to popular myth, the first playing of Rite created a riot after the concert -- you've never heard that old saw? Dunno if it's true or not. I doubt it, I can't believe that a piece of music would have that kind of effect on a bunch of concertgoers, but then there was always the Beatles, after all, so maybe.
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by Zina Lee
Re: Classical Fakes
Yeah that's why I mentioned its first public airing. That was my point.... Ahh I think we must have hit on a semantics problem - I meant "cooler [reception]" as in "cold/frosty/spiteful", as opposed to "way cool, way-to-go-dude cool", i.e. that it would probably cause more of a riot at a session than it did at that 1st concert. Stravinsky's hardly ITM
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by Dow
By the way, I'm not 100% sure but I think the stuff about the riot is true. The Rite Of Spring was one of the first atonal pieces and it would have sounded very weird to people at that time. They were used to nice pretty sounding stuff with lovely chords that resolve nicely, so the Rite wouldn't have sounded like "proper music". Concerts would have been more rowdy then anyway I guess.
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
well,there was a kerfuffle of sorts between those in favour /against the piece but that could well have been orchestrated (really,no pun intended!) by diaghalev to get the publicity.or maybe not,knowing what parisian audiences were like!
by the way,it's not atonal.there's passages where chords are heaped onto each other etc but it's yer 2nd viennese mob who came up with that palaver.
anyway,back to seamus creagh...
# Posted on May 16th 2003 by biggus dave
Re: Classical Fakes
Dave, I well remember that Eric Morecambe & Ernie Wise's tv show with André Previn! Previn trying unsuccessfully to conduct the orchestra with Eric Morecombe at the piano in a hilariously abortive attempt at the Grieg Piano Concerto (I think it was). Hence Eric's crack about the notes being all there but not necessarily in the right order.
It's been said in later years, probably with some truth, that when that late beloved comedy duo subjected some celebrity to a guest appearance on their tv show that celebrity's career would then take off - perhaps not in its original direction!
Trevor
# Posted on May 17th 2003 by lazyhound
Re: Classical Fakes
Dave, I stand corrected. I think I meant something else like polytonal (???). Anyway yeah, I didn't mean to start on about Stravinsky - talk about hijacking my own thread!!!
)))
# Posted on May 17th 2003 by Dow
Re: Classical Fakes
Ever heard the Cheiftans play with a full Orchestra? Man, are they crazy. I heard about 50 violins playing The Irish washerwoman all in unison. Talk about an act of nature!
# Posted on May 20th 2003 by fadah