Firstly: learn third position, and get it comfortable, before tackling second position. Third position is more 'natural' somehow, and has similar 'shapes' between notes as first position.
Secondly: to learn to play in any other position than first - for this instance, let's take third position - place the hand so that it is comfortable and the first finger is on, say, the G on the D string. Play G A B c and back until that is comfortable. Repeat on other strings, and try to remember how it feels.
Thirdly: in order to practise the shift from first position to third, place the first finger on the E on the D string and play the note E. Now, release any pressure in that finger and slide it up, slowly (don't worry about any horrible noises for now) to the G, remembering to try and 'land' with your hand in the same comfortable position it was in when all you were doing was a little scale up and down.
Above all, take this sort of stuff very slowly and don't get impatient about it. It will work eventually, and you'll be sliding that finger up so quick, the horrible glissando effect will disappear.
Lastly, a question: why do you want this in ITM? Or is it for other sorts of music? ITM - as she is played in sessions at least - is almost exclusively in first position. (I'm assuming you're talking about fiddle here ...)
Yes,why? Useful if you want to take up classical or jazz violin.Irish tunes do not sound Irish when played in the second or third position.You need the open strings.
There are Scottish tunes that require second or third position. The melodeon player I play with prefers Silver Spire in a key that requires me to use second or third position! It's not an essential skill for ITM but can be useful occasionally
Yeah OK, it can be useful (but you can always play those bits of a tune an octave lower). But is it a priority? It's not an easy thing to get right and I'm often wincing when perfectly able fiddlers in first position nip up to the dusty bit once in a while and make a right bloody racket of it. I'm afraid this is yet another of those techniques for technique sake
Totally. This was one of the many, many alluring charms of Irish fiddling for me, the lack of need to use any position but the first. I got plenty of up and down fingerboard galloping in my classical years, thanks. They can keep it as far as I'm concerned.
Not at all. If you're bored, go learn a tune you don't know yet. There's never any reason for anyone to be bored studying this music. If you get bored, it means you're slacking off, go learn a new tune, it's not like there's any shortage of them.
I don't know, guys. There are many tunes that go up to C#. I'm sure glad I know how to shift when I get there - I have a lot better fingering options that way.
Being able to make it up to 2nd position saves my hands on some ornaments - I'm thinking Rakish Paddy, and Yellow Tinker
I can do nice rolls with my 4th finger, but most of the time I'm a little lazy for that.
When I play tunes an octave down on viola, I end up in 2nd position a lot. I don't have overly large hands, and that helps with the F#s and C#s, and lets me do some of the same ornamentation I would do on fiddle (otherwise, I end up doing completely different ornamentation, which is all right too).
Michael, would you prefer that those fiddle plays you hear that are out of tune in 3rd position never practice it?
"The Dawn" http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/8214 takes you to a high C# and D. Playing those 3rd or 4th position notes an octave lower would ruin the tune. As I suggested in my comments on the tune, the tune could be played on the fiddle a 5th lower by shifting down a string, and then it can all be played in the first position. However, doing that, to my ear, makes it sound a bit too dark for a "dawn" tune, and the flutes and whistles would also have their own problems.
Ben has outlined a good method of getting facility with the higher positions. Once it has been acquired you'll have a feeling of more relaxation and freedom in the first position as well.
I agree with Michael that "It's not an easy thing to get right", but then nothing on the fiddle is until you put in some time and work at it, even playing in the first position well.
Now here's a thought - all these shifting problems for the fiddle in ITM could vanish overnight if someone were to design a 5-string fiddle with an extra string above the E – like G-D-A-E-B, "assuming" that materials are available for making a B-string that works and is reliable at that tension
Now here's a thought - all these shifting problems for the fiddle in ITM could vanish overnight if someone were to design a 5-string fiddle with an extra string above the E – like G-D-A-E-B, "assuming" that materials are available for making a B-string that works and is reliable at that tension
-----------------------------------
Position changing for the violin by Neil Mackay
Got those third position blues (covers 2nd position a bit)
Position pieces (think there are 3 books in this series)
The Neil Mackay includes exercises and goes through all the strings and fingers.
I use a combination with my pupils. While I primarily teach classical violin, the technique is the same. Best of luck with it. The more you do it the easier it gets.
Would recommend trying to move your hand and arm as a unit, don't just move your fingers and try not to leave your thumb behind. Common mistakes that I definitely made when learning!
There are tunes where it's handy or even necessary to shift into 2nd and 3rd position, but no need for a formal practice to learn the shift. Just play those tunes, slowly and attentively at first, until you can do the shift accurately and easily. MacArthur Road (in E maj) requires a straightforward shift into 3rd for just a couple of notes, alternating all the way with open E string notes. That's a good tune to start with.
The trick is to have a clear, spot-on mental image of the pitch you're aiming for.
Once you've worked up a few tunes that shift into 2nd or 3rd, play them at least once a week so you don't get rusty. Otherwise, you'll end up botching it (I should know) and annoying Michael.
Good reminders, nicky. That bit about not leaving the thumb behind is a key one. And one of the benefits of learning to shift is that it loosens the all-too-common death grip on the neck. To shift easily, your thumb should be relaxed, resting opposite the index and middle fingers.
Some fun tunes that include opportunities to shift:
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Why is it "lastly, why"? Surely that's the first question - Why?
so spoke llig leachim.Because its there Llig.
like Mount Everest.
I believe this was Edmund Hillarys answer,when asked why he wanted to climb Mount Everest.
Nothing ventured nothing gained,we would all be still sitting in caves,and playing one string fiddles,as the actress said to the Bishop.
Screetch having brought it up, I can't resist an aside on the violin octet. I heard a demonstration concert in Cardiff in 1976, at a time when they were still new enough for people to be excited about them.
Their 'big idea', their USP, was that, because they were all violins, not a mixture of violins and viols, and because they were all designed on the same accoustic principles as the violin, they would blend beautifully. They did. It was uncanny. It was hard to pick out individual lines, because the sound blended *so* well, it just sounded like one instrument with an extraordinary range. I think that has been - and will remain - their biggest downfall. It's actually better to hear clear lines and separate individual tones/timbres.
I don't think your analogy works, dickens. Everest is still there, even for ITM musicians, but it doesn't seem necessary to climb it in order to play ITM.
For some tunes, though, it's useful to have the facility to use positions other than first, as Will has said above. I know I'm getting on dangerous territory, but I'm not sure it would work, though, to practise position shifts just by practising the tunes that need them. I think if you're going to be comfortable with it, you will probably need to practise the technique separately - just concentrating on the technique itself.
I'm quite prepared to get my coat at this point ...
Part of the fun and skill of playing in the higher positions is anticipation, especially shifting up before you theoretically need to, such as playing a whole series of notes across the E and A strings in order that you can drop straight down onto an open string at the end and continue in the first position.
An example of what I mean is in the 7th bar of the A-part of “The Dawn” http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/8214 where I'm in the 1st position for the first two beats, shift to the 3rd position with the 3rd finger hitting that high C#, and then playing the descending notes c#'-b-a on the E-string followed in bar 8 by f#-g-e-f#-d2 in the 3rd position on the A-string, and lastly dropping from the d to the open A.
Wow! Here I was, happily forgotten every aspect of my classical training (except for the subconscious mechanics) and as it turns out, I could have put it to good use.
"difficult" (sigh, the way I type, it's a wonder I can hit any notes on the fiddle)
Ben, I should better explain my point about using the tunes to learn the shifts. Just my tuppence on the idea, not dogma.
Two things I've noticed over the years. First, some of these tunes are as simple as any shift exercise you could work up--so might as well learn the tune. Yes, it may take some time before you're ready to launch the tune at a session, but better that than simply having the ability to shift and no where to use it. Second, the same skills that we use to finger notes accurately in first position are all we really need to finger them in 2nd or 3rd or any other position--mostly our ears and attention to the kinesthetic sense of where our hands are (most often found at the ends of our arms). Too many people get freaked out about moving up the neck, yet it's an absolutely basic technique on any stringed instrument. Frets (on a mandolin, banjo, or guitar) may make it slightly less daunting, but the skills are the same--no one learns to play up the neck on fretted instruments without eventually doing it by ear-and-feel.
The difference for Irish fiddlers is that so few tunes ask us to go up the neck, so we don't need to do it. And even if we learn how to shift, we get rusty because those tunes rarely get played. Bit of a self-limiting circle we find ourselves in. Unless we learn a bunch of those shifty tunes. Which brings me back to using the tunes to learn the positions.
Yes, I do kind of accept that, Will. I understand your point. It's just that, for a lot of people, shifting up the neck on a fiddle is *so* difficult, whether just in their minds or in actual, practical terms, that I think there is some merit in practising something that *isn't* a tune, so that you focus entirely on the mechanics and forget anything else. I've got a feeling that that's probably what you and I both did, a long time ago. Too long to remember ...
I'll give a direct analogy for this. I'm getting a few (very few, c'mon where *are* they, mentor? ) tips to help me learn to play whistle. So, I'm practising my rolls and crans. I'm tending to practise them separately. Then, later in my practise session, I'll try and fit them into a tune or two.
Hmmm ... I'm beginning to wonder if we're talking about the same thing, and I'm just being thick ...
Sorry, I've never done isolated shift exercises--only learned positions as needed for specific tunes. I've never trained to be a violinist. But I've played banjo, mandolin, and guitar, comfortably all over the neck. So it's not such a spooky thing, with or without frets. I certainly go through rusty bouts on fiddle, where my intonation sucks. But that's the nature of playing this music (almost exclusively now, in my case).
I mentioned something on another thread about bowing the other day regarding the technical aspects of playing diddley music. The amount of technique required is effectively capped. I think this is very important and is one of the music's great strengths. It's not a deliberate thing, it's merely a by-product of the music being written created and honed by people with limited technical skill.
However, when you look at this "mere by-product", a truly amazing thing has happened. An art form has been created that is every bit as wonderful and valid and artistic etc etc as any art form that has ever been created. The music is not static, of course, it continues to evolve, but we all agree here that as custodians of it, we have a responsibility to be true to it. (though we argue what that means of course).
The analogy of climbing a mountain is clumsy (because there is no summit to conquer in music) but I'll try to elaborate: I could climb a hill and the view could be among the best in the world. Or I could climb Everest and the view is splendid, but no better. I climb for the view, not the climb. I'm not interested in climbing.
I am playing the violin, that's all I know, nothing else, no education, no nothing. You just practice every day.
Itzhak Perlman
You want to play the tune or what? Damn I love this quote....
I agree with llig, it doesn't matter how high the mountain is only that I got there.
Only do what it takes to play the tune, anything else is unecessary and or ornamentation/personal interpretation.
I've heard tell that some of the viols or fiddles that first developed in Ireland had curved necks, preventing position-shifts and leaving fiddlers to vent their spleen on pipers by playing obnoxiously below middle C. Believe Ciaran Carson or no.
Second position is mentioned here but unless I missed it there is no description of what it is. I am familiar with 3rd position and am not quite ready to tackle it. Is second position easier when reaching for high c 'sand d's?
Second position simply means that you're putting your fingers one degree of the scale higher than in the 'normal' first position. So, your first finger would be on the F on the D string and the c on the A string etc. You'd normally need at least third position to be able to reach that high d', but second might be ok for the high c'.
2nd position is the perfect position for the C major scale so you probably won;t need it that much...cept maybe in American stuff!
SWFL Fiddler: it does get boring! But that's coz I'm a classical geek, I find tunes more interesting if they go against the flow a bit and go up into the higher register!
there are summits to conquer all the time in music,
cast your mind back to when youstarted,could you play rolls [no].so with practice and endeavour you learn to play rolls.the same applies with bowing ornamentation,it doesnt just happen.
technique is acquired through practice.
technique should not then be used not as end in itself,but to enable the player to if he so wishes.play more challenging peices such as Dawn, Contradiction,Moving Cloud ,these peices sound better[IMO] if the player is able to shift positions etc.Dick Miles
DJF, I'm sorry that you find it boring, Irish music that is. You are obviously of the opinion that the climbing bit is more important than the view. Thankfully though, yours is not a widely held belief and even more importantly, this belief wasn't held by the artists who invented the music.
Yes the analogy of climbing a mountain is clumsy, but it seems there is mileage in it yet. If you truly believe there are summits to conquer in music then perhaps Irish music is not the best past time for you?
what's the fuss?
a lot of fiddlers play some higher positions on the lower strings to get the sound they want - nothing to do with showing off
it's a personal thing and about sound, not boredom
I can't believe you've never noticed
Me too DJF, that's sad to hear! Perhaps you're missing the communal aspects of the music? I enjoy creating interesting variations of very simple tunes, they keep me amused creatively, while allowing me to share the tunes with players of all skill levels, which is one of the many great joys of the music, sharing it with others.
Of course, there is a great joy sharing complex and challenging tunes with other skilled players too!
Thank you bren! When and where did I say I don't enjoy playing with other people?
I didn't say Irish music was boring! Think about it...why would I bother going on this site...even saying I'm a bit addicted to the fiddle (see I've even stopped calling it violin now!) in another thread...if I found Irish music boring?
There are plenty Irish tunes that require the second or third position (many hornpipes in particular.) And there are many, many more Scottish tunes that use second and third positions, and playing up to the fifth position is not uncommon in Scottish traditional music. In Donegal there are a lot of tunes that are simply not playable without moving outside the first position. It is very common for traditional fiddlers in Donegal, especially among the older generation, many of whom could not read music, to play outside the first position with ease. (I think that among the young generation of fiddlers this is less common, strange!)
Also, there is really no reason not to learn the third and second positions. In reply to the question "Why learn the higher positions?", Why the hell not!
Re: playing in the second or third postion: In Tune!
Also if you're going to play in higher positions please, please play in tune. Listen to Alasdair Fraser, great playing. And playing up to the third position isn’t really that difficult, there’s no excuse for playing out tune really.
You don't want to end up sounding like Seán McGuire or Seán Keane from the Chieftains. On his album (with Matt Molloy) "Contentment is Wealth", Seán Keane played Scott Skinner's hornpipe "The Mathematician", which has quite a bit of jumping about, up to the sixth position, and he never hit the same note twice, just terrible! Seriously, why does he even bother tuning the fiddle! But most Irish and Scottish tunes just don't require higher positions, and Seán McGuire or Seán Keane play them badly too!
i do agree with D.J.F
i have learnt a few amazing session tunes that require moving to third position and i think its great. they are always the last tunes played at sessions and it feels great when i know them and can join in because they are percieved as hard because of the position change but often are fairly simple and sound great!
D.J.F. - Welcome to the yella board. Have you played Irish music long? If not, no worries--but don't be surprised if you look back in a few years and are amazed at how much you've learned about it (perhaps more than seems possible at this point).
The vast majority of Irish tunes are happily at home in first position. Like 99 percent of them. And there's nothing "boring" about that (even for someone who can play up the neck).
I totally agree with Will. You Folkworks kids should stick with Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and enjoy it while you're still young. There's plenty of time for the big tunes.
Oh, I don't have any problem with anyone who wants to learn tunes that go up the neck. All I'm saying is that there's shedloads of great music that never leaves first position.
Chances are, if someone is bored by tuens in first position, they're not yet seeing all the potential there. But if they love trad music, they'll eventually come around.
And I'd never begrudge an 18 yearold his or her passions--all us old fogies were young once too.
ya i was just curious cause i was trying to play some creole cajun type of tunes but found most of them are in third position, just wanted to change it up a little after playing so much itm
playing in the second or third postion
playing in the second or third postion
does anyone know a good book or method for learning this?
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by stevequincy
Re: playing in the second or third postion
the Karma Sutra?
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by BanjoBongo
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Firstly: learn third position, and get it comfortable, before tackling second position. Third position is more 'natural' somehow, and has similar 'shapes' between notes as first position.
Secondly: to learn to play in any other position than first - for this instance, let's take third position - place the hand so that it is comfortable and the first finger is on, say, the G on the D string. Play G A B c and back until that is comfortable. Repeat on other strings, and try to remember how it feels.
Thirdly: in order to practise the shift from first position to third, place the first finger on the E on the D string and play the note E. Now, release any pressure in that finger and slide it up, slowly (don't worry about any horrible noises for now) to the G, remembering to try and 'land' with your hand in the same comfortable position it was in when all you were doing was a little scale up and down.
Above all, take this sort of stuff very slowly and don't get impatient about it. It will work eventually, and you'll be sliding that finger up so quick, the horrible glissando effect will disappear.
Lastly, a question: why do you want this in ITM? Or is it for other sorts of music? ITM - as she is played in sessions at least - is almost exclusively in first position. (I'm assuming you're talking about fiddle here ...)
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Why is it "lastly, why"? Surely that's the first question - Why?
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Yes,why? Useful if you want to take up classical or jazz violin.Irish tunes do not sound Irish when played in the second or third position.You need the open strings.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by dafydd
Re: playing in the second or third postion
There are Scottish tunes that require second or third position. The melodeon player I play with prefers Silver Spire in a key that requires me to use second or third position! It's not an essential skill for ITM but can be useful occasionally
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Tarrantella
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Yeah OK, it can be useful (but you can always play those bits of a tune an octave lower). But is it a priority? It's not an easy thing to get right and I'm often wincing when perfectly able fiddlers in first position nip up to the dusty bit once in a while and make a right bloody racket of it. I'm afraid this is yet another of those techniques for technique sake
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Totally. This was one of the many, many alluring charms of Irish fiddling for me, the lack of need to use any position but the first. I got plenty of up and down fingerboard galloping in my classical years, thanks. They can keep it as far as I'm concerned.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: playing in the second or third postion
^it does get boring playing solely in one position don't you think?
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Not at all. If you're bored, go learn a tune you don't know yet. There's never any reason for anyone to be bored studying this music. If you get bored, it means you're slacking off, go learn a new tune, it's not like there's any shortage of them.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Hmm yes, sorry chaps. I do totally agree. Questioning why any position but first *should* have been my first point. I was just trying to helpful ...
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
I don't know, guys. There are many tunes that go up to C#. I'm sure glad I know how to shift when I get there - I have a lot better fingering options that way.
Being able to make it up to 2nd position saves my hands on some ornaments - I'm thinking Rakish Paddy, and Yellow Tinker
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/86
http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1554
I can do nice rolls with my 4th finger, but most of the time I'm a little lazy for that.
When I play tunes an octave down on viola, I end up in 2nd position a lot. I don't have overly large hands, and that helps with the F#s and C#s, and lets me do some of the same ornamentation I would do on fiddle (otherwise, I end up doing completely different ornamentation, which is all right too).
Michael, would you prefer that those fiddle plays you hear that are out of tune in 3rd position never practice it?
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by reenactor
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Good on you ben! Well done for being helpful!
reenactor, I'd wager Michael would rather have them practice all their tunes in the 1st position!
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: playing in the second or third position
"The Dawn" http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/8214 takes you to a high C# and D. Playing those 3rd or 4th position notes an octave lower would ruin the tune. As I suggested in my comments on the tune, the tune could be played on the fiddle a 5th lower by shifting down a string, and then it can all be played in the first position. However, doing that, to my ear, makes it sound a bit too dark for a "dawn" tune, and the flutes and whistles would also have their own problems.
Ben has outlined a good method of getting facility with the higher positions. Once it has been acquired you'll have a feeling of more relaxation and freedom in the first position as well.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: playing in the second or third postion
I agree with Michael that "It's not an easy thing to get right", but then nothing on the fiddle is until you put in some time and work at it, even playing in the first position well.
Now here's a thought - all these shifting problems for the fiddle in ITM could vanish overnight if someone were to design a 5-string fiddle with an extra string above the E – like G-D-A-E-B, "assuming" that materials are available for making a B-string that works and is reliable at that tension
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Now here's a thought - all these shifting problems for the fiddle in ITM could vanish overnight if someone were to design a 5-string fiddle with an extra string above the E – like G-D-A-E-B, "assuming" that materials are available for making a B-string that works and is reliable at that tension
-----------------------------------
Oh, it can be done. The treble violin goes way higher than that:
http://www.newviolinfamily.org/8tet.html#anchor1379934
A violin for dogs to hate.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Screetch
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Several very good books:
Position changing for the violin by Neil Mackay
Got those third position blues (covers 2nd position a bit)
Position pieces (think there are 3 books in this series)
The Neil Mackay includes exercises and goes through all the strings and fingers.
I use a combination with my pupils. While I primarily teach classical violin, the technique is the same. Best of luck with it. The more you do it the easier it gets.
Would recommend trying to move your hand and arm as a unit, don't just move your fingers and try not to leave your thumb behind. Common mistakes that I definitely made when learning!
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by nickyviola
Re: playing in the second or third postion
There are tunes where it's handy or even necessary to shift into 2nd and 3rd position, but no need for a formal practice to learn the shift. Just play those tunes, slowly and attentively at first, until you can do the shift accurately and easily. MacArthur Road (in E maj) requires a straightforward shift into 3rd for just a couple of notes, alternating all the way with open E string notes. That's a good tune to start with.
The trick is to have a clear, spot-on mental image of the pitch you're aiming for.
Once you've worked up a few tunes that shift into 2nd or 3rd, play them at least once a week so you don't get rusty. Otherwise, you'll end up botching it (I should know) and annoying Michael.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Good reminders, nicky. That bit about not leaving the thumb behind is a key one. And one of the benefits of learning to shift is that it loosens the all-too-common death grip on the neck. To shift easily, your thumb should be relaxed, resting opposite the index and middle fingers.
Some fun tunes that include opportunities to shift:
The Contradiction Reel: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/196
The Dawn: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/8214
Brid Harper's Hornpipe: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1955
Huckleberry Hornpipe: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/3715
John Doherty's Highland: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/7266
Sean McGlynn's Mazurka: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/1328
The Wee Rabbit: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/4608
and
Moving Cloud: http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/1091
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: playing in the second or third postion
the Whistler book "Introducing the Positions, 3 and 5"
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Sunnybear
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Doesn't "John in the Fog" (I cannot spell it in Gaelic) require shifting to play the way it is meant to be played?
I had the impression that it was, therefore, a standard of high accomplishment for a fiddler to play that tune well and with ease
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Fid42
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Why is it "lastly, why"? Surely that's the first question - Why?
so spoke llig leachim.Because its there Llig.
like Mount Everest.
I believe this was Edmund Hillarys answer,when asked why he wanted to climb Mount Everest.
Nothing ventured nothing gained,we would all be still sitting in caves,and playing one string fiddles,as the actress said to the Bishop.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Screetch having brought it up, I can't resist an aside on the violin octet. I heard a demonstration concert in Cardiff in 1976, at a time when they were still new enough for people to be excited about them.
Their 'big idea', their USP, was that, because they were all violins, not a mixture of violins and viols, and because they were all designed on the same accoustic principles as the violin, they would blend beautifully. They did. It was uncanny. It was hard to pick out individual lines, because the sound blended *so* well, it just sounded like one instrument with an extraordinary range. I think that has been - and will remain - their biggest downfall. It's actually better to hear clear lines and separate individual tones/timbres.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Linda, it's this one: Sean Sa Cheo - http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display/177
Yep, works well going into 2nd position. Some poeple just stretch to reach the high c'. But it's not a particularly difficutl tune on fiddle.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: playing in the second or third postion
I don't think your analogy works, dickens. Everest is still there, even for ITM musicians, but it doesn't seem necessary to climb it in order to play ITM.
For some tunes, though, it's useful to have the facility to use positions other than first, as Will has said above. I know I'm getting on dangerous territory, but I'm not sure it would work, though, to practise position shifts just by practising the tunes that need them. I think if you're going to be comfortable with it, you will probably need to practise the technique separately - just concentrating on the technique itself.
I'm quite prepared to get my coat at this point ...
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
"... not a particularly difficutl tune ..." That's easy for you to say!
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Part of the fun and skill of playing in the higher positions is anticipation, especially shifting up before you theoretically need to, such as playing a whole series of notes across the E and A strings in order that you can drop straight down onto an open string at the end and continue in the first position.
An example of what I mean is in the 7th bar of the A-part of “The Dawn” http://www.thesession.org/tunes/display.php/8214 where I'm in the 1st position for the first two beats, shift to the 3rd position with the 3rd finger hitting that high C#, and then playing the descending notes c#'-b-a on the E-string followed in bar 8 by f#-g-e-f#-d2 in the 3rd position on the A-string, and lastly dropping from the d to the open A.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Wow! Here I was, happily forgotten every aspect of my classical training (except for the subconscious mechanics) and as it turns out, I could have put it to good use.
Oh well, too late now! Set in my ways...
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: playing in the second or third postion
"difficult" (sigh, the way I type, it's a wonder I can hit any notes on the fiddle)
Ben, I should better explain my point about using the tunes to learn the shifts. Just my tuppence on the idea, not dogma.
Two things I've noticed over the years. First, some of these tunes are as simple as any shift exercise you could work up--so might as well learn the tune. Yes, it may take some time before you're ready to launch the tune at a session, but better that than simply having the ability to shift and no where to use it. Second, the same skills that we use to finger notes accurately in first position are all we really need to finger them in 2nd or 3rd or any other position--mostly our ears and attention to the kinesthetic sense of where our hands are (most often found at the ends of our arms). Too many people get freaked out about moving up the neck, yet it's an absolutely basic technique on any stringed instrument. Frets (on a mandolin, banjo, or guitar) may make it slightly less daunting, but the skills are the same--no one learns to play up the neck on fretted instruments without eventually doing it by ear-and-feel.
The difference for Irish fiddlers is that so few tunes ask us to go up the neck, so we don't need to do it. And even if we learn how to shift, we get rusty because those tunes rarely get played. Bit of a self-limiting circle we find ourselves in. Unless we learn a bunch of those shifty tunes. Which brings me back to using the tunes to learn the positions.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Yes, I do kind of accept that, Will. I understand your point. It's just that, for a lot of people, shifting up the neck on a fiddle is *so* difficult, whether just in their minds or in actual, practical terms, that I think there is some merit in practising something that *isn't* a tune, so that you focus entirely on the mechanics and forget anything else. I've got a feeling that that's probably what you and I both did, a long time ago. Too long to remember ...
I'll give a direct analogy for this. I'm getting a few (very few, c'mon where *are* they, mentor?
) tips to help me learn to play whistle. So, I'm practising my rolls and crans. I'm tending to practise them separately. Then, later in my practise session, I'll try and fit them into a tune or two.
Hmmm ... I'm beginning to wonder if we're talking about the same thing, and I'm just being thick ...
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Sorry, I've never done isolated shift exercises--only learned positions as needed for specific tunes. I've never trained to be a violinist. But I've played banjo, mandolin, and guitar, comfortably all over the neck. So it's not such a spooky thing, with or without frets. I certainly go through rusty bouts on fiddle, where my intonation sucks. But that's the nature of playing this music (almost exclusively now, in my case).
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: playing in the second or third postion
OK. Well, at least I wasn't being thick, then.
# Posted on February 18th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
I mentioned something on another thread about bowing the other day regarding the technical aspects of playing diddley music. The amount of technique required is effectively capped. I think this is very important and is one of the music's great strengths. It's not a deliberate thing, it's merely a by-product of the music being written created and honed by people with limited technical skill.
However, when you look at this "mere by-product", a truly amazing thing has happened. An art form has been created that is every bit as wonderful and valid and artistic etc etc as any art form that has ever been created. The music is not static, of course, it continues to evolve, but we all agree here that as custodians of it, we have a responsibility to be true to it. (though we argue what that means of course).
The analogy of climbing a mountain is clumsy (because there is no summit to conquer in music) but I'll try to elaborate: I could climb a hill and the view could be among the best in the world. Or I could climb Everest and the view is splendid, but no better. I climb for the view, not the climb. I'm not interested in climbing.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: playing in the second or third postion
I agree.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by lazyhound
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Well, personally, I didn't understand that last paragraph. But, if Trevor agrees, then so do I.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
I am playing the violin, that's all I know, nothing else, no education, no nothing. You just practice every day.
Itzhak Perlman
You want to play the tune or what? Damn I love this quote....
I agree with llig, it doesn't matter how high the mountain is only that I got there.
Only do what it takes to play the tune, anything else is unecessary and or ornamentation/personal interpretation.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by john knoss
Re: playing in the second or third postion
A gentleman is one who knows all the positions, but doesn't need to use them.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by oldstrings
Re: playing in the second or third postion
I've heard tell that some of the viols or fiddles that first developed in Ireland had curved necks, preventing position-shifts and leaving fiddlers to vent their spleen on pipers by playing obnoxiously below middle C. Believe Ciaran Carson or no.
--DtM
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Dan the Man
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Second position is mentioned here but unless I missed it there is no description of what it is. I am familiar with 3rd position and am not quite ready to tackle it. Is second position easier when reaching for high c 'sand d's?
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by billcampbell
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Second position simply means that you're putting your fingers one degree of the scale higher than in the 'normal' first position. So, your first finger would be on the F on the D string and the c on the A string etc. You'd normally need at least third position to be able to reach that high d', but second might be ok for the high c'.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by benhall.1
Re: playing in the second or third postion
2nd position is the perfect position for the C major scale so you probably won;t need it that much...cept maybe in American stuff!
SWFL Fiddler: it does get boring! But that's coz I'm a classical geek, I find tunes more interesting if they go against the flow a bit and go up into the higher register!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: playing in the second or third postion
there are summits to conquer all the time in music,
cast your mind back to when youstarted,could you play rolls [no].so with practice and endeavour you learn to play rolls.the same applies with bowing ornamentation,it doesnt just happen.
technique is acquired through practice.
technique should not then be used not as end in itself,but to enable the player to if he so wishes.play more challenging peices such as Dawn, Contradiction,Moving Cloud ,these peices sound better[IMO] if the player is able to shift positions etc.Dick Miles
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by dickens metrognome
Re: playing in the second or third postion
DJF, I'm sorry that you find it boring, Irish music that is. You are obviously of the opinion that the climbing bit is more important than the view. Thankfully though, yours is not a widely held belief and even more importantly, this belief wasn't held by the artists who invented the music.
Yes the analogy of climbing a mountain is clumsy, but it seems there is mileage in it yet. If you truly believe there are summits to conquer in music then perhaps Irish music is not the best past time for you?
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: playing in the second or third postion
what's the fuss?
a lot of fiddlers play some higher positions on the lower strings to get the sound they want - nothing to do with showing off
it's a personal thing and about sound, not boredom
I can't believe you've never noticed
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Bren
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Me too DJF, that's sad to hear! Perhaps you're missing the communal aspects of the music? I enjoy creating interesting variations of very simple tunes, they keep me amused creatively, while allowing me to share the tunes with players of all skill levels, which is one of the many great joys of the music, sharing it with others.
Of course, there is a great joy sharing complex and challenging tunes with other skilled players too!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by SWFL Fiddler
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Thank you bren! When and where did I say I don't enjoy playing with other people?
I didn't say Irish music was boring! Think about it...why would I bother going on this site...even saying I'm a bit addicted to the fiddle (see I've even stopped calling it violin now!) in another thread...if I found Irish music boring?
Your attitude stinks llig
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: playing in the second or third postion
" it does get boring! I find tunes more interesting if they go against the flow a bit and go up into the higher register!"
hmmm
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by llig leahcim
Re: playing in the second or third postion
There are plenty Irish tunes that require the second or third position (many hornpipes in particular.) And there are many, many more Scottish tunes that use second and third positions, and playing up to the fifth position is not uncommon in Scottish traditional music. In Donegal there are a lot of tunes that are simply not playable without moving outside the first position. It is very common for traditional fiddlers in Donegal, especially among the older generation, many of whom could not read music, to play outside the first position with ease. (I think that among the young generation of fiddlers this is less common, strange!)
Also, there is really no reason not to learn the third and second positions. In reply to the question "Why learn the higher positions?", Why the hell not!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by neddiescotus
Re: playing in the second or third postion
llig if you would CARE to read my previous posts! I say it is boring to play solely in one position!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Thats precisely the problem.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Hugo Chavez
Re: playing in the second or third postion: In Tune!
Also if you're going to play in higher positions please, please play in tune. Listen to Alasdair Fraser, great playing. And playing up to the third position isn’t really that difficult, there’s no excuse for playing out tune really.
You don't want to end up sounding like Seán McGuire or Seán Keane from the Chieftains. On his album (with Matt Molloy) "Contentment is Wealth", Seán Keane played Scott Skinner's hornpipe "The Mathematician", which has quite a bit of jumping about, up to the sixth position, and he never hit the same note twice, just terrible! Seriously, why does he even bother tuning the fiddle! But most Irish and Scottish tunes just don't require higher positions, and Seán McGuire or Seán Keane play them badly too!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by whistleblower
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Will the Venezuelan Left Winged President explain his problem with it??
Not all Irish tunes are solely in first position! Many require shifting up a notch don't they?
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: playing in the second or third postion
i do agree with D.J.F
i have learnt a few amazing session tunes that require moving to third position and i think its great. they are always the last tunes played at sessions and it feels great when i know them and can join in because they are percieved as hard because of the position change but often are fairly simple and sound great!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by frafyduck
Re: playing in the second or third postion
D.J.F. - Welcome to the yella board. Have you played Irish music long? If not, no worries--but don't be surprised if you look back in a few years and are amazed at how much you've learned about it (perhaps more than seems possible at this point).
The vast majority of Irish tunes are happily at home in first position. Like 99 percent of them. And there's nothing "boring" about that (even for someone who can play up the neck).
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: playing in the second or third postion
I totally agree with Will. You Folkworks kids should stick with Twinkle Twinkle Little Star and enjoy it while you're still young. There's plenty of time for the big tunes.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Dow
Re: playing in the second or third postion
No time like the present Dow!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Oh, I don't have any problem with anyone who wants to learn tunes that go up the neck. All I'm saying is that there's shedloads of great music that never leaves first position.
Chances are, if someone is bored by tuens in first position, they're not yet seeing all the potential there. But if they love trad music, they'll eventually come around.
And I'd never begrudge an 18 yearold his or her passions--all us old fogies were young once too.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: playing in the second or third postion
^^come around is exactly what I will do Will!
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by D.J.F.
Re: playing in the second or third postion
Good on you then.
# Posted on February 19th 2008 by Will CPT
Re: playing in the second or third postion
ya i was just curious cause i was trying to play some creole cajun type of tunes but found most of them are in third position, just wanted to change it up a little after playing so much itm
# Posted on February 24th 2008 by stevequincy